Confused on Lution or Clear Pied

[prettybirds]

One of my new tiels is a pretty little girl that I was assuming was a lutino. However, in another thread (about a different bird) it was mentioned that if she did not have red eyes (even very dark red) that she was a clear pied not a lutino. I've taken quiet a few pictures of my girl and there's never been a hint of red eye so is that to assume she is a clear pied and not a lutino after all?

Here are a few pictures of her.

Edited to add: wow, I just looked at them again myself and while it's just the one, the picture of her in her cage does look like she has dark red showing up. You sure can't see it in person.

[prettybirds]

Sorry about that everybody, I guess you can just forget the question. Wow, I feel like I just discovered a brand new bird. LOL. I went and took another shot of her and sure enough this time it really shows up red in her eye. It doesn't in every picture though, but when it does, it really does.

[srtiels]

You can also shine a flashlight indirectly to her eyes to tell the color of them.

If you want to try something really cool is if you have a blacklight hold it above a group of tiels. Any grey areas will look like a royal purple and so soft and velvety. yellows will look like gold. Awesome! Sometimes I use this on Lutino Whiteface (albino) to tell if they are also pearled and/or pied.

[atvchick95]

You can also shine a flashlight indirectly to her eyes to tell the color of them.

If you want to try something really cool is if you have a blacklight hold it above a group of tiels. Any grey areas will look like a royal purple and so soft and velvety. yellows will look like gold. Awesome! Sometimes I use this on Lutino Whiteface (albino) to tell if they are also pearled and/or pied.



now i'm going to have to invest in a black light LOL

the one i got came with a product to clean dog pee stains off carpets and it doesn't work worth a crap I held over an area Sheba pee'd on like 20 mins before and it didn't show up at all that she peed there:o

oh and the product is crap too LOL didn't get the stains out of my sons carpet at all from Sheba

[srtiels]

ATV...the teils look AWESOME under black light. Even the plainest grey can look stunning. And normal pearls a lush purple edged in gold. Your lighter mutations like WF fallow and WF fallow pearl look lavender against a brillant white.

My daughter snagged my blacklight, so I'm going to have to get one too.

[Lovin_the_tiels]

OOOOOOOOOHHHHHH MMMMYYYYYY,,i just did the blacklight,,totally,totallyyyyyy AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!tHANKS FOR THAT TIP!!,
I use a black light for verifying McKee glass(it glows)WOWOWOEEEEEE,Anyone,,go to your local walmart,for 10bucks you can buy one,,so worth it!!!!!

[srtiels]

Guess who will be going to Walmart tomorrow...LOL I need to get another one. I was telling my husband how different even the plainest tiel can look under black light.

How I found out was by accident. My night light burnt out and I borrowed my daughters black light. When I turned it on I freaked wondering what happened to the babies...some were glowing. And the colors were awesome.

[atvchick95]

and you use it in the pitch dark like a normal black light would be used?

[srtiels]

Nah...it doesn't have to be totally dark. During the day you can also close the blinds,, cover windows, etc. to darken a room. have fun :)

[Jenny]

Well, I know that tiels can have deep ruby red eyes, instead of just the bright pinkey-red, so that may be why you didn't notice. However, be careful with the pictures, because even birds get red-eye lol I just took some photos of the little flock I'm babysitting and all of them have red eyes when I know only one really does!

[prettybirds]

LOL Good point Jenny. I guess I'm going to Walmart today (haha) to pick up a blacklight.

what are the chances though really? I mean aren't most birds that look like mine above Lutinos? Is clear pied really that common? I've never heard of that mutation before, of course, I'm absolutely no expert, but still, I've heard of all the others and even know what they look like. Or is it more of a most people just don't recognize clear pied when they see it and more "lutinos" are clear pied than people know.

[srtiels]

I had to search my hard drive but I found some pix's of a fallow pearl. I was shooting in a daylit room and did not realize the blacklight was still on until I downloaded the pix... Under straight blacklight the colors would be deeper..

[atvchick95]

oh that is cool :)

[srtiels]

Is clear pied really that common? I've never heard of that mutation before, of course
----------------------------------

Clear pied is simply a descriptive term meaning the bird is clear or any dark feathers. Other old time terms were bulls-eye pied.

They are not that common. And if found it is hard to find good sized clear pieds, because it's seems as they lose their markings/color they also can go backwards in size and quality. In order to keep quality and size up every other generation should be paired with a split to pied.

[prettybirds]

Thanks for the clarification srtiels. I was wondering does the same thing happen with some other mutations? My female lutino really seems delicate to me, and her wings just seem .. well odd (although she uses them fine) but just in overall comparison to my male who is hearty and robust she seems overly delicate beyond just feminine... I could be wrong and she's just a typical female to his male version. I don't have a lot of experience with various members of the tiel family and do not intend on breeding. I was just wondering if possibly that same 'bacwards' loss of size/quality has happened in other mutations and maybe she was over bred lutino.

[srtiels]

I was just wondering if possibly that same 'bacwards' loss of size/quality has happened in other mutations
---------------------------
Ah...not a simple easy answer...

Yes...it can happen in any mutation. Many beginning breeders try and take what they think is the 'safe 'route' in breeding by breeding like to like (l to l)...which means same colors together. They do this because they are unsure of how genetics work, and they know that the babies will be the same as the parents.

Unfortunitely if this practice is done generation after generation the mutations suffer because they were not out-crossed with normalsd or another mutation to improve the next generation. Quality and size suffers, and by going backwards the tiel progressively gets smaller with each generation. This is common in the pet industry where a 70-80 gram bird is average. Other faults can occur. Balding is not exclusive to lutinos. ANY mutation can eventually be bred from generations of like to like pairings.

Other reasons for the smaller less robust birds are many times a pet pair will go to nest. If a breeder is not breeding exclusively for the pet trade then what happens is breeders will hold onto the nicest and best birds to hold back for the next breeding season. The remaining birds are sold as pet quality. Most pet bird owners get into breeding accidently because, surprise the birds are mating and there are eggs. Most times the pet owner now becomes a 'breeder' but many times has no idea what mutations they have or any background on the birds to know what other genes the bird is carrying. Most times the offspring of these pairs are nice healthy babies, but of average size and substance. It is ususally when a breeder works with babies held back that overall quality and size imprives. In addition to pairing a visual colored bird to a normal bird that is split to a complimentary or same mutation.

I'd like to point out that even experienced breeders that know better will still breed like to like more because they do not want grey babies in the nest because they may be harder to sell. This happens alot with many of the rarer mutations.

As to your lutino, does she have the type wings that are held out slightly from her body and droop alittle? If so that may have been from a calcium defeciency while in the nest as a baby. As they get older their bones tend to be more brittle than normal. Sources of calcium are a must for these types of birds because if she decides to lay, in laying an egg there is a draw for calcium from the body for shell formation. Calcium is stored in the bones. Many times if a hen does not have enough calcium stored in the bones during this time compound fractures can occur in the long bones of the with or legs.

Sorry for getting off track and the long post...

[prettybirds]

YES you described the funky wing thing perfectly!!! They do have a cuddlebone in the cage that they use. Perhaps a more drastic form of calcium supplement is in order? Or is that enough? (He is fine, nice size very sturdy etc. It's just her)

[srtiels]

If she is healthy aside from the wings then really nothing is wrong with her except she had a rocky start in life. It's her turn now for all the live and best you can give her.

As to calcium suppliments check out this link: http://www.guinealynx.info/charts.html

It is a guinea pig site but the charts at the bottom of the page are useful with any animal or bird in regards to the nutrients content and % in greens and veggies.

Most greens contain oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is known to bind calcium in the body. What this means is it makes it unavailable for absorption. BUT...look for greens that are low in oxalic acid, yet high in calcium and phosphorus. ANY % of calcium listed above the oxalic acid % will be useable and absorbed in the system. Print the charts out and do a comparison for future reference.

If your bird is relucant to eat veggies and greens, I found the best way is to offer a whole leaf, or a large chunk so that they can't ignore it but get curious and check it out. With 2 or more birds it is easier because one will be more nosey and have to try it first. Also, tiels will not eat the complete leaf/greens. What they do is selectively eat and pick the areas of the leaf, like veins and stems, that they know have the best nutrients.

If you are using a vitamin fortified or pelleted diet there is no need to suppliment with powdered calcium suppliments.

Oh another thing that will help with overall health is to have a Vita light or plant grow flouresant light in the room located along side or above the cage. Or some exposure to natural sunlight a couple times a week.

[prettybirds]

Great thanks. She's otherwise healthy and active. She also eats vegies pretty well. I'll check out the link, thanks. I also just bought a uv light and hope to have it here and up by the weekend. Thanks a lot for the info. I had no idea that's what caused her weird wing postures.

[srtiels]

Glad to help :) She should be fine healthwise. Oh...ususally when they have the wings like hers they are sometimes bow legged too.

The tiels will enjoy the light.

[prettybirds]

Hum that's interesting. I don't notice anything unusual about the shape of her legs alhtough she's just 'delicate' in stature and the way she moves, holds etc. She is missing one toe, I kind of assumed that was from something in a previous home, perhaps another bird. Maybe not though.

[srtiels]

Ah...that is good that the defeciency was just confined to the wings, and not also the legs....meaning the defeciency was not real extreme. The missing toe could have been an injury in the nest.

[Jenny]

Wel, we get the clear-pieds alot, this is the first true Lutino my manager has gotten from her pairs. We have 2 in the store now and we've sold 3-4 others who look just like lutinos, except they have dark brown eyes :confused: So I don't know how common it is, maybe we just have the odd breeder pair who pumps them out lol

[srtiels]

I'm in Ft. Lauderdale, and had some of the best pieds in S. Florida. Large, beautiful heavy and clear pieds. When I was breeding I would average 1,000 to 1.200 babies a month. 1/3 of them were pieds like in in the pix's below. I never liked lutinos or lutino WF, so I worked my pieds from splits to clear pieds and nicely marked pieds. Most weaned babies went to Pet Supermarket, or quite a few shops bought them out of the the nest. My pieds were my pride and joy because I developed them from nothing birds, and did it myself from local stock. Average weaning weight was between 110 to 135 grams. Nice solid beautiful pieds, including the clear pieds.

[Jenny]

Beautiful babies!! Our breeder is just begining to work on her stock, she's been collecting for a while and bought out the breeding stock of a breeder who couldn't keep them. They're improving with every batch, the babies I'm watching for the weekend being the best of the bunch so far.

I really admire the time you put into breeding your tiels into being some of the best I've seen, that takes so much dedication!! :D

[srtiels]

Thanks!

I wound up with Bird Breeders Lung several years ago and in the hospital with a collapsed lung. So I have had to sell off most of my tiels due to Dr. orders. But I kept enough to work with. My current project is to work backwards to get all the splits out of the normal greys for a line of nice pure (meaning no splits) normal greys. And also working with Dominant Silvers and working to get a line of very light toned Single Factor and also build up quality and size. I still have my favorite pair of pieds, simply because the hen is 6th generation. The remainder are odds and end splits, PF, fallows and such.