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Go Back   Talk Cockatiels Forums > Cockatiels > Cockatiel Breeding > Cockatiel Mutations and Genetics

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Cockatiel Mutations and Genetics This is the place to ask any questions you might have about your cockatiels mutation, or about potential breeding results, etc.

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  #31  
Old 01-17-2017, 12:16 PM
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Strange thing here. I downloaded the free version of Birds Evolution Pro, entered one of my pairs in it, and calculated the results. It did NOT use the terms SF and DF in connection with whiteface or any other gene that this pair has. It even took the crossovers into account, although it didn't do it at the right rates. As a genetic calculator I would rate it as crap, since they don't ask you which X chromosome a male is carrying his sex-linked splits on and that's vital to getting a reasonably accurate answer. But it doesn't refer to a split as single factor, which it seemed to be doing in the OP's results. They don't use the word split at all from what I saw, instead when you enter a mutation they ask if the bird has one or two mutant genes.

I would also rate it as crap because you need a good understanding of genetics to understand the poorly-worded results correctly. If you don't already know what you're supposed to get from a pair, you're likely to misunderstand it. The problem comes at the bottom of the list below, where you have a bunch of girls who are visual lutino and/or cinnamon but only split to whiteface, and it's easy to misread it and think they're split to cinnamon and/or lutino (which is impossible). And the percentages are wrong because they assumed a crossover rate of 50% between cinnamon and lutino when the actual rate is about 3%.

The pair I entered was Buster and Shodu. He's normal grey split to cinnamon on one X and lutino on the other X, and also split to whiteface. She's whiteface with no splits. Here are the results the BEP gave:

6.25% Male - Blue (Whiteface), Split Lutino, Split Cinnamon
6.25% Male - Blue (Whiteface), Split Lutino
6.25% Male - Blue (Whiteface), Split Cinnamon
6.25% Male - Blue (Whiteface)
6.25% Male - Split Blue (Whiteface), Split Lutino, Split Cinnamon
6.25% Male - Split Blue (Whiteface), Split Lutino
6.25% Male - Split Blue (Whiteface), Split Cinnamon
6.25% Male - Split Blue (Whiteface)
6.25% Female - Blue (Whiteface), Lutino, Cinnamon
6.25% Female - Blue (Whiteface), Lutino
6.25% Female - Blue (Whiteface), Cinnamon
6.25% Female - Blue (Whiteface)
6.25% Female - Split Blue (Whiteface), Lutino, Cinnamon
6.25% Female - Split Blue (Whiteface), Lutino
6.25% Female - Split Blue (Whiteface), Cinnamon
6.25% Female - Split Blue (Whiteface)

Here are the results from GenCalc, which asks where the sex-linked mutations are and uses an accurate crossover rate. It's consistent with their actual breeding results. I've translated it into standard terminology and cut all the numbers in half so the total for both sexes combined adds up to 100%, so it's comparable to the results above. You can see that the percents are very different.

Male: Grey split WF, cinnamon, lutino
x Female: whiteface
Males
12.125% Whiteface split cinnamon
12.125% Grey split cinnamon & whiteface
0.375% Whiteface split cinnamon lutino
0.375% Grey split cinnamon lutino & WF
12.125% Whiteface split lutino
12.125% Grey split lutino & whiteface
0.375% Whiteface no splits
0.375% Grey split whiteface
Females
0.375% Whiteface cinnamon lutino
0.375% Cinnamon lutino split whiteface
12.125% Cinnamon whiteface
12.125% Cinnamon split whiteface
0.375% Whiteface no splits
0.375% Grey split whiteface
12.125% Whiteface lutino
12.125% Lutino split whiteface
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Last edited by tielfan; 01-17-2017 at 06:16 PM..
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  #32  
Old 01-17-2017, 06:52 PM
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Excuse me for rambling on, but I got to wondering whether they use different terminology for splits in Australia. The Australian sites I found used the same terminology that we do. Also, I discovered that the screen cap that was said to be the Australian National Cockatiel Society actually came from a Jamaican breeder's site: http://janseenie.tripod.com/id23.html It's possible that someone on an ANCS forum quoted it, but that's apparently not where the text originally came from.

The Jamaican site is using the terms SF and DF to talk about pastelface, not whiteface. It's technically not correct to use these terms because PF is an allelic mutation not a dominant mutation, but I can forgive them for doing it. It's murderously difficult to talk about allelic mutations because we don't currently have good terminology to describe the gene combinations. The reptile community uses the terms heterozygous and homozygous, but the bird community is confused by these words and so they end up using other terminology that doesn't quite fit. I'd rather see heterozygous pastelface called single factor PF than to see it called pastelface split whiteface, which happens way too often. And homozygous pastelface called double factor instead of... what? Pastelface NOT split whiteface?

But the Jamaican article never talks about whiteface being SF or DF because it wouldn't make any sense to do this. SF and DF are used to indicate the number of genes in a bird that is visual for a mutation. A "single factor" whiteface bird will never be visual whiteface, and a "double factor" bird obviously has two WF genes because that's the only way you can get visual whiteface.

I did find a Finnish site COMPLAINING about people who refer to pastelface as SF or DF. http://www.neitokakadut.com/en/cocka...lue-pastelface But they don't complain about people referring to whiteface as DF, probably because there's almost no one doing it.
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  #33  
Old 01-17-2017, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chefontheloose View Post
The previous owner's bred they male with a normal grey. And the baby is a (SF) Whiteface male. Also my breeding and genetics program has (DF) Whiteface in it. And when i enter his details and a normal grey female it comes up with

12.5% split Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface split pied (SF) Normal Grey
12.5% split Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface split pied
12.5% split Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface (SF) Normal Grey
12.5% split Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface

12.5 % Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface split pied (SF) Normal Grey
12.5% Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface split pied
12.5% Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface (SF) Normal Grey
12.5% Cinnamon (SF) Whiteface

No split whiteface. And the double factor also makes them lighter in colour to normal whiteface cinnamon.
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The more I look at this the odder it seems. It makes me wonder whether someone marked up the results and didn't do a very good job of it.

First of all the percentages are right for a cinnamon whiteface cock and a normal grey hen split whiteface, with one parent also being split to pied.

Second of all, I think the first SF on each line refers to cinnamon not whiteface. There are no commas so it's hard to tell what belongs with what, but this makes the most sense. The boys are all split and the girls are all visual with one copy of the gene.

It's what comes afterward that's interesting. Some lines say "Whiteface split pied (SF) Normal Grey" or "Whiteface (SF) Normal Grey" So is the bird whiteface or normal grey? It can't be both, and I suspect that these lines refer to a bird that is split to whiteface not visual. Other lines refer to Whiteface without being followed by SF or Normal grey. These are apparently the birds that are visual whiteface, having gotten the gene from both parents.

Here's what I get when I run the following combinations on Birds Evolution Pro. This is obviously the most up to date version since I just downloaded it today, but it's hard to believe that the older versions would have been as bad as what's shown above. I gave the pied split to the male but the outcome would have been the same if it was the hen instead. I haven't altered the wording of the results at all.

Cock cinnamon whiteface split pied
Hen normal grey no splits

25% Male - Split Cinnamon, Split Pied, Split Blue (Whiteface)
25% Male - Split Cinnamon, Split Blue (Whiteface)
25% Female - Cinnamon, Split Pied, Split Blue (Whiteface)
25% Female - Cinnamon, Split Blue (Whiteface)

Cock cinnamon whiteface split pied
Hen normal grey split whiteface

12.5% Male - Split Cinnamon, Split Pied, Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Male - Split Cinnamon, Split Pied, Split Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Male - Split Cinnamon, Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Male - Split Cinnamon, Split Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Female - Cinnamon, Split Pied, Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Female - Cinnamon, Split Pied, Split Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Female - Cinnamon, Blue (Whiteface)
12.5% Female - Cinnamon, Split Blue (Whiteface)

Edited to add:
Quote:
the double factor also makes them lighter in colour to normal whiteface cinnamon
The whiteface gene affects only the psittacin pigment (yellow/red coloring), and it removes all of it. Whiteface does not affect the melanin (grey) pigment, so the only effect on body color comes from getting rid of the yellow wash on the body feathers. DF can have a stronger effect than SF when one gene only changes part of the color and a second gene changes it some more. But you can't get any lighter than pure white, so even if whiteface coloring could be caused by a single gene, there would be nothing left for a second whiteface gene to do.
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Last edited by tielfan; 01-17-2017 at 07:52 PM..
 
  #34  
Old 01-17-2017, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
The whiteface gene affects only the psittacin pigment (yellow/red coloring), and it removes all of it. Whiteface does not affect the melanin (grey) pigment, so the only effect on body color comes from getting rid of the yellow wash on the body feathers. DF can have a stronger effect than SF when one gene only changes part of the color and a second gene changes it some more. But you can't get any lighter than pure white, so even if whiteface coloring could be caused by a single gene, there would be nothing left for a second whiteface gene to do.
This is what I was trying to say!! I can never remember the correct terminology (and pregnancy brain DOES NOT HELP guys!!!) but yes, this is what I meant! In layman's terms, it won't affect the color of the body, only the face. Grey is still going to be grey, whether the bird is wf or not. And I've seen some pretty dark wf birds (I owned one at one point, gorgeous coloring.)
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  #35  
Old 01-17-2017, 11:23 PM
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The melanin is normally black, but it looks grey to us because we see it through a layer of white keratin in all cockatiels, and also through a thin layer of yellow pigment in non-whiteface birds. The darkness or lightness of the grey coloring will depend on a variety of factors, like how thick the keratin layer is, how intense the yellow coloring is (if present), and how dense the melanin granules are within the keratin layer. But the whiteface mutation doesn't have any effect on the melanin itself, it just changes the visual filter by removing the yellow pigment.

Whiteface has been around for almost 50 years and is one of the most common mutations. The genetics are very well understood, and it's universally accepted that it's autosomal (ordinary) recessive. Two WF genes are needed to get visual WF, with no known exceptions. Every website, book, and article that I've ever seen treats it that way, and so does every calculator that I've seen including the Birds Evolution Pro version that I downloaded today. My breeding results confirm it too. Especially Teela and Azazel, who give me whiteface babies even though neither one of them is whiteface. That wouldn't be possible if one WF gene was all it took to make a bird visual WF.
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Last edited by tielfan; 01-17-2017 at 11:28 PM..
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