# This is Allie.



## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

For the past month, I have been in contact with an ebay classifieds seller who lives in an area close to my hometown (about 5 hours from me). She was selling 4 cockatiels, one which was a whiteface female listed as crippled and untame. 

I emailed the woman and asked what exactly was wrong with the hen..I was told that she had an overgrown beak, her wings wouldn't "close up", and that her feet don't straighten. The woman was very cooperative and was slow to reply to my emails, but she did answer all my questions when she got back to me.

From the questions I asked and the information she volunteered, this whiteface hen was at about a 2-4 out of 10 body weight, she could not balance very well, and did not like other birds too much. Once isolated for a picture of the bird's poop, the woman discovered that this cockatiel was a love; she did not like to be in her cage and was just content to sit on your shoulder. I explained that the bird sounded like she had liver issues and was told that "poor diet is her choice." Whether this is true or not, I do not know. 

This is Allie:










Here are a few pictures of her feet, I think they are deformed from a genetic defect or a nutritional deficiency she had as a chick while developing:



















Only 2 of her nails make contact with the bars while climbing, she mainly uses her beak to steady herself and also her wings. There are spots on her wings rubbed raw because of this.










She holds her wings like this all the time:










She has liver disease; her overgrown beak, the weight loss, and also these wispy feathers show this:









Here is a post by Susanne confirming this:
http://talkcockatiels.com/showpost.php?p=252832&postcount=4


I will be taking her in to the vet next week and will pull the white feathers afterwards. I will have her beak trimmed (the former owner had trimmed it twice in the past month, and not to my consent), have a cbc run so I can check her liver enzymes and uric acid levels, and have them evaluate her overall condition. I'm also going to ask for an injacom injection because her skin and nares look like she may be Vit A deficient. She weighs 87 g and is thin. 

Following the vet visit, I plan to give her Milk Thistle and Dandelion extract. I've already given her some benebac (she also had some seed in a few of her poos), and will start her on Brewer's yeast and Beta Carotene today.

I named her Allie.  It is her first name and she is estimated to be around 6 years old.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Aw, poor little birdie. It's so good of you to take her in. It's so good to know that she's going to be loved and cared for properly. She looks like a sweetheart.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

WOW Bailey...she's GORGEOUS!!!! Good on you for taking her in. Give her lots of scritches for me!


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## AMom2011 (Apr 25, 2012)

oh that poor thing!! I hope you can put that 'tiel smile' back on her face.. she looks sick, and to have found YOU to take care of her is a miracle for this little bird  best of luck nursing her back to health.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* I plan to give her Milk Thistle and Dandelion extract.*
-------------------------
Nope....ask the vet for Lactulose....it is the BEST thing for liver issues, in addition to the Brewers Yeast.

Ask if the hen has been an egg layer. I have seen these type of wings on hens that did not have enough circulation calcium in their blood and when it was drawn from the bones, the bones went hollow in areas and fractured. If she was not an egg-layer then this was a calcium deficiency of the parents and calcium deficiency after hatch.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah I've been reading up on liver disease more and more..I'll ask the vet about the lactulose. 

And as to laying, the woman I got her from never bred her but purchased her from a breeder (and I think as a breeder)...I don't think she had any background on the bird and has only had her for a year. It is very possible for her to have been a breeder bird. I don't think I will get a definitive answer, but I will ask.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh Bailey. She's so pretty. I'm so glad you are taking her in.


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## SuzieQueue (Mar 12, 2012)

she is such a sweety, and good to see she has finally found a good home, im sure you will be able to make her life much more pleasant now


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## nassrah (Feb 27, 2012)

Congrats on giving her a good life now and looking after her properly.Hope she improves fast X x


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Aww, she is beautiful! So nice of you to give a home to a bird who needs so much.


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## xoxsarahxox (Dec 13, 2010)

She's a beautiful girl


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

So far she seems to do best on her rope perch, even though I have a platform perch for her. I guess I need to buy more ropes!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't know if you have a cheap place to get perches, but Lisaowens recommended this site to me and these are the cheapest I've seen rope perches. 

http://stores.ebay.com/A-Bird-Toy/P...18555510&_sid=137060651&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

meaggiedear said:


> I don't know if you have a cheap place to get perches, but Lisaowens recommended this site to me and these are the cheapest I've seen rope perches.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/A-Bird-Toy/P...18555510&_sid=137060651&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322


Thanks, I will be using this!
Sorry for thread jacking!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks! I was over here going dang..she *needs* the EXPENSIVE perches! LOL I'm jk, I'm willing to spend money for her. If I wasn't willing then I wouldn't have taken her home.


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

Have you thought about ramps? i know her feet are not THAT bad but you can also just buy or bake a wooden perch and cut slits for her feet to grip(make sure to sand it smooth though!)
That is a cheap alternative!
She is very beautiful, i'd like to see some lighter pictures of that pretty face!
i hope all comes out well. congrats on the beautiful special gal!


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## smays810 (Dec 27, 2011)

She is really pretty and I'm sure once she is healthy again she will be even more beautiful.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I bought one in every size! (4 total) $30+combined shipping. Thanks Meagan!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I gave her a bath the other morning hoping to get her feathers back on the right track (and because she's molting and she had poop on her from the other birds she was kept with) and she did not like that at all! And I found out that she doesn't preen the area between her shoulders on her back..all her feathers were stuck together and crispy from drying in the sun. I had to massage it all out. I'm sure she'll get to looking better with time. 

I hope I can turn her liver around in time; she was in a town where noone takes any of their animals to vets so I figured I was her only chance. I've got my fingers crossed for her.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Birds are so finnicky about preening! 

Glad you got her some cheap perches! We always smack our forehead when they need expensive stuff cause we always run out and get it. Lol!


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

She is so pretty, and she certainly went to the perfect home! Fingers crossed she will be better with time, no doubt she will flourish in your care.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

She's lovely! Hopefully the vet you use will be able to help make her comfortable and improve her condition. 

On another note, I took one of the babies I have to the vet this past weekend for sour crop. Couldn't get her in to Research so I went to Westgate. The doc we saw was AMAZING. He did everything right, including prescribing exactally the best meds (as Susanne can confirm) without me having to ask. He then gave me extra supplies and didn't charge me for an extra test he did just to rule out a potential issue. I will be going back there in the future - the drive to Research was a killer.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm going to Parmer Lane Pet Hospital in Cedar Park because the Research Blvd reviews for avian patients weren't too good. The doctor at Westgate was Rick Lusk and he was very belittling to me..made me feel stupid and acted like I didn't know anything, did unneccessary testing on Krissi, gave me extra stuff to give her that didn't help at all and just stressed her out; I felt about 2 inches tall when I was in the exam room with him and was livid by the time I left on her second visit. It was implied that I was dumb for taking in such a poorly malnourished bird; if for whatever reason I do go back to Westgate I will not be seeing him. And if you saw him and he was very nice to you and did a good job, then maybe he just had a problem with me and thought I was young and naive, I really have not a clue.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Wow - I am sorry you had a problem with Westgate. After working for vets for 7 years, I tend to be able to rattle off enough knowledge that they either get ticked off with me or they actually listen and speak to me like I am not 10 years old. This time I was lucky - the vet actually spoke to me and we discussed treatment options and meds. I am so sorry you had a bad experience. I haven't been completely happy with Research and when they wouldn't see this baby for 3 days, I had to find someone else. How do you like Parmer Lane?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She just took a nap on me, woke up, pooped on me, tracked it all over me...but guess what! No seed in it! And I only gave her 1/2 a dose of benebac because she was being difficult. She sleeps a lot, which I know is normally a bad sign but in her case it is good for her liver to heal. But it also makes me question her age a bit because Krissi always slept much more than my young birds.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Haha. I love how it doesn't matter that she tracked it all over you. Just that there was no seed in it.  I can tell she's going to be spoiled already.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Lol, she definitely will be. I just rearranged her cage again because I felt like she couldn't climb back up from the bottom of the cage when she got down there (I had put food and water down there just in case). The cage she is in a has a grate that hooks to the side of the cage so I moved the grate up, which made her cage a bit smaller but it's better for her anyway because she is quite clumsy with those feet..this way the fall to the bottom will be smaller.

I took more pictures today so I'll post them later tonight when I get out of work.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

I love wide short cages. They are the best for cockatiels, I think. If I didn't have my double stack, I would have worried myself sick until Ama got better with her balance. I know what it's like to worry about her falling and hurting herself. But it's good that you are rearranging. 

Have you tried ladders? They really helped Ama get up and down to play with stuff.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

The cage came with little wire ladders I've considered putting in, but the way I've arranged it now should work out.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well there was seed in her poop last evening. >.< So I gave her the last half of the dose of the benebac..to her dismay. 

And here's those pictures I promised to post last night.

In the last picture you can see the spot rubbed raw on her wing from using it to balance herself. It is like that on the other wing as well.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

And 2 more. 

We were in the car because Adrian wasn't at home and I didn't feel comfortable staying at his house by myself in case his mom showed up. I was not driving with her or taking pictures while driving. LOL.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

I love the little patch of white just above her beak. She reminds me of a little old woman - much like my grandma. She cooked great, played cards and listened to baseball on the radio... She was no-nonsense, spoke 5 languages and would paddle my behind with a wooden spoon if I sassed her but she would give me the shirt off her back. What a precious girl.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

She really is a pretty bird. I hope the benebac helps.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Allie is so precious.


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

She is very beautiful! i suggest hand feeding if necessary! she is so beautiful, i don't know how someone could let such a beautiful thing go to waste.
I am so glad you took her in!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Hand feeding formulas for baby birds are high calorie and are high in fats..this is NOT something you want to give a bird with liver issues. It would just give her liver more stuff to filter out and the fat content would cause more damage. I would only hand feed her if she could no longer eat on her own; and it would be force feeding/tube feeding because she does not like taking anything from syringes.

P.S. I'm not slamming you WendyBeoBuddy; that is a good idea for most thin birds that are malnourished. But I think in this case, formula would actually be the end to her.


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

Not hand feeding formula for babies! A small amount of sick adult birds are needed to be force fed or hand fed, I don't know her condition(i was not suggesting baby formula esp with her liver issues! lol) i was just suggesting that if her poop started not being digested, maybe she should be on an easier diet or hand fed. Please don't take me wrong, i never meant baby formula! heheh. I'm glad she is able to eat on her own. I didn't now her condition


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## nassrah (Feb 27, 2012)

She s so sweet X x


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

So she's gotten a full dose of benebac and I've given it a few days to work and there is still seed in her poop! Any suggestions?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Time for a vet visit. She may have parasites or something else that will need meds stronger than probiotics.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

We've already got one scheduled for thursday morning...before she came to me her poops were normal, do you think maybe a secondary infection or something from the stress could cause it?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I think the stress could be playing a part...even if she was given stuff for it, if she's stressed she's still gonna have an upset tummy (like if you were stressed out and you had a tummy ache I would imagine.) I would definitely ask the vet about it.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Okay so I don't know if anyone is going to get irritated with this thread continuing to pop up, but I'm sure it will turn out to be lengthy so get used to it. 

Allie's poop actually appeared to get worse after giving her the benebac. Well today, I am proud to say that Allie has a had day of seed-free poop! At first, when I rubbed it on a paper towel it was a bit solid like little balls but not visible seeds. And by the end of the day I can rub it onto a paper towel and there isn't any solid pieces in it; it is almost normal! I'm continuing to give her probiotics in her water (3 acidophilus capsules in 1 gal water--stored in the fridge) since you can't really overdo probiotics. I'll continue this until the gallon is gone and then continue to keep an eye on her poop. Yay! 

I also gave her another bath today which she did not enjoy. Since she can't preen the area between her shoulders I kind of have to do it for her. Poor thing had little bits of poop and seed buried in her feathers from the other birds in the cage she was kept in (literally buried, I couldn't see it until I dug through).

I'll update again after her vet appointment (11 AM on Thursday morning).


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm so glad she seems better! Good luck on the vet appt!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Why is it she can't preen between her shoulders?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm not really sure; it might be that she can't balance well enough to turn around that far. She preens everywhere but there. To stretch her wings out she puts her beak on the ground and then extends them back/down..so her balance issues (due to her feet) definitely limit her on what she can do.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

That makes sense. I was just wondering if she was obstructed in some way that wasn't letting her turn her neck. How does she sleep if she can't get her neck turned around?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Not all birds tuck their heads into their backs to sleep..I actually think only one of my boys do. Lol, Allie sleeps with her head upright.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> Not all birds tuck their heads into their backs to sleep..I actually think only one of my boys do. Lol, Allie sleeps with her head upright.


I think Ama does too then! I just have never seen a bird sleep any other way. Every time I walk in there after I put them to bed, she has her head leaned forward like she's nodding off and about to fall off the perch. lol. She rarely tucks up to sleep.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah, it's normal. The only time to worry about it is if the sleeping position changes. Like if Grey usually tucks up and then he stops..that is something to be concerned about. I guess with Ama and Allie you would look for them to lean more forward when they were sick, lol


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think it also depends on how sensitive they are to you coming into the room. I used to think that Sunny didn't ever turn his head back, but since he's now in the main room where I do work, I've noticed that he leans forward as he's falling asleep, then eventually does tuck back. But if you walk in there in the dark, he's always awake and ready to hiss at you, which is what was making me think he wasn't tucking back.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

That is Allie's preening gland (a blurry pic of it anyway)..it isn't a normal color and looks sort of clogged to me. I'm thinking it is related to a Vit A deficiency since most preening gland issues are. Any thoughts? I'm definitely going to ask the vet about it.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Bailey, that is wonderful! I love when vets DON'T rip us off. That's why I wish the vet I take my cats too saw birds.  My only options for avian vets are 45 minutes in opposite directions and could charge me an arm and a leg if they wanted because i would have no one else.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Um, my vet is also named Dr. Campbell, and it sounds like his style is extremely similar. Seriously, what is up with all these coincidences lately?! 

I'm glad you had such a great visit, though! Sounds like she'll be on track toward getting healthy in no time. Just out of curiosity, are you planning on doing any testing before you bring her out of quarantine? If you don't want to do specific disease testing, you could always do a CBC just to be sure -- a normal white cell count is a pretty definitive sign that there's nothing infectious going on.  Just something to think about for the future.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'll probably do that before I introduce them; if I choose to do the doxycycline treatment then that will last 45 days so it will be a while before I have to worry about that. Just a quick question...has anyone had to get their pet prescriptions from a pharmacy other than your vet office? They didn't have the doxycycline there and my old vet wouldn't give it unless they saw Allie..do people pharmacies fill vet prescriptions?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

They do. I used to have to do that in FL. It's kind of entertaining. They fill it for the pet's name with your last name, and it has on the label that it's for an animal.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Okay because I didn't want to ask that to the vet and sound dumb. I guess I'll call tomorrow and tell them to send it to my pharmacy.

Thanks Michelle, you saved me an embarrassing phone call.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sometimes it's also cheaper that way.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)




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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Aw, she looks very cute with her beak trim (not that she wasn't cute before! It's kind of like a birdie nose job. ) It looks like she'll have an easier time eating and preening with the trim.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

They wanted to get it a bit shorter, but they didn't want her to bleed. 

Hopefully it will wear down on its own or we'll get a second trim when we go back to do a cbc in 6 weeks.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

What a pretty girl! Is it painful for them? I am wondering because I am pretty certain Bailey will have this done Monday.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She didn't act like it was hurting her. There are nerve endings in the beak though, so I'm sure if they DID make her bleed, it would have been very painful.

Also, some birds just scream from the way the doctors hold them so that doesn't mean that they're being hurt. They do a grip where they hold the head between their thumb and forefinger and cradle their body like a baby in their hand/on their forearm. Krissi had her exam done that way and she screamed the whole time even though they didn't do anything but feel her keel bone and look at her eyes..etc. I just don't want you to be freaking out if Bailey is screaming the whole time.


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

She looks great! i like the new beak style she has going on 
she likes hers short now  haha
i still love her coloring


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

According to the vet who does my parents' lovie's beak, it's not painful unless they get deep enough to hit the base layers of the beak where the nerve endings are. Usually the part that overgrows doesn't have any nerves in it. Kind of like how it's not painful to trim nails unless you cut the quick.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> she screamed the whole time even though they didn't do anything but feel her keel bone and look at her eyes..etc. I just don't want you to be freaking out if Bailey is screaming the whole time.


Sunny is like that. Anytime you have to hold him for anything, he screams like you're killing him.  Some birds are just way more dramatic about it than others.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Good to know. I just want to be prepared. When my dog gets her nails trimmed I can't even stay in the room because she cries so much lol! Bailey is really good about being handled, she doesn't scream or anything when she is held down, so hopefully it won't be too bad for either of us. I am not looking forward to blood work if that is needed. I might not be able to stay for that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

JaimeS said:


> Good to know. I just want to be prepared. When my dog gets her nails trimmed I can't even stay in the room because she cries so much lol! Bailey is really good about being handled, she doesn't scream or anything when she is held down, so hopefully it won't be too bad for either of us. I am not looking forward to blood work if that is needed. I might not be able to stay for that.


She'll probably be fine, then. Roo always does really well at the vet. Do you know if the bloodwork will be a toenail clip or under anesthesia? Personally I'd push really hard for the toenail clip. 

(Sorry for the thread-jacking, Bailey.)


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I hope it will be a toenail clip. I'm not even sure they will need to draw blood but that would be much better! I am taking her because of the seedy poop and since her beak is overgrown I am concerned.

(I'm sorry too, Bailey  )


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Since she's young, I would get the chem panel done. If there's something going on with her liver, you'll have your best chance of correcting it now.  Also, don't be afraid to ask for what you want as far as how the tests are done. My vet's office always wants to sedate, but I refuse to do it unless there's some really compelling reason why there isn't any choice. Remember that you're her best advocate. 

(Also, you might want to go ahead and start your own thread for her vet visit now, so our discussions will be in the same place if people are using it for reference in the future.  )


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks, will do!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Some vet offices don't sedate to draw blood..just throwing that out there. Some places use a dremel tool to trim beaks so don't be shocked if they pull out a little machinery.  it's a little noisy but hopefully she is used to some noise in your house.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Good to know. Yeah, she is used to noise. I think she will be okay as long as I'm there with her.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo actually likes the dremel. She's never had her beak trimmed, but when my vet does wings/nails, he also likes to use the dremel to buff out the places where the beak is flaking. Whenever he does it on her, she makes her little "omg that feels good" face, like when she gets scritches. It's adorable.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Aww, I hope Bailey likes it.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I just picked Allie's doxycycline up from the pharmacy and it says 0.15 cc for a 25mg/mL suspension, once daily. That's the biggest dose I've ever seen. She's going to hate me if that's correct and the flavor is "fruity" so I might as well just set her flying about the room.

If I remember right, Kirk took .08 cc of 50mg/mL suspension twice daily.

So that means Allie is getting half the dose Kirk got, but she weighs more. This just doesn't seem right to me.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Wait, wouldn't .15 cc of the 25 mg/ml suspension be about equivalent to Kirk's dose? That IS a lot of liquid, though. I wonder if you might call the vet and see if they can prescribe it to be compounded differently? If you do have to give the full thing, I'd do it in several small bits. The one time I had to give .1 cc's, it was horrible and got all up in Roo's nares.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

See..it would be equivalanet, except Kirk was given it TWICE each day. I'm going to hold off on it and call the vet tomorrow. I wish it was compounded differently too because she hates me giving her .05 of lactulose so doing 3 times that amount of liquid is going to really upset her.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

OH, got it. Sorry, I was all caught up in the volume/concentration.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well the vet said the dosage was right and that Kirk probably was given 25 mg/mL but with the dose split up. Now I want to call the old clinic and ask what Kirk was prescribed..LOL.

I gave her her first dose of medicine today and she was so upset. I have to give her a couple of breaks during the dosing to let her calm down and I wrap her in a towel to do it or she flies away. Hopefully this will be easier by the end of 45 days. I think I'll give her the lactulose morning and night and give her the doxycyline midday so everything is spaced out. *sigh*


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That sounds good. At least it is only once a day. Any chance she'd take it off a cracker or something?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Probably not..she's super picky. The ONLY thing she will eat is white millet. I'm just dripping the medicine on the side of her beak to give it because she really does not like taking anything from syringe..I found that out giving her the benebac.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah, that's a good way to give it. Just give her breaks to swallow. I didn't at first, and that's how I got in trouble with Roo.  But I'm sure you'll do great. You have at least as much experience medicating as I do.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Kirk was a bit easier to do because although he fought to get away, we didn't fear aspirating him because he took it once we got it in his mouth..and held his head to keep him from shaking. Lol. So Allie is probably most difficult but I can handle it.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sunny is like that. At least according to my vets (three of them, asked separately) aspiration isn't as big a risk in an adult bird, especially when it's only a few drops of med. They do frequently get it up in their sinuses, but it's unlikely for them to get it into their actual lungs. Plus, it's an antibiotic, so even if she DID aspirate a bit of it, it shouldn't cause a problem. I know it's nerve wracking, though. Remember to breathe.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

You are such a good birdie mom, Bailey.  It's rough, but you can do it!


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Bailey - I have a crop needle if you need to be sure to get it in the bird, I would be happy to loan it to you and show you how to use it. It is not a big deal to use, I just dealt with one of the babies for a week three times a day dosing her with meds. It looks and sounds worse than it is.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Srtiels told me that using it or a tube would likely be less stressful in the long run for administering meds if she is not co-operative. So feel free to message me if you want to borrow it. It is a stainless steel one so it can be completely sterilized.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I think that would be more stressful for me than her, LOL. She likes to struggle and try to fly off so i'd be afraid of poking a hole in her crop or something. If worse comes to worse I'll consider it though. Thanks Michelle.

I think i'd be more comfortable using something flexible, like a catheter tube, if I really needed to.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Any time Bailey.  Just message me or give me a call.

Just so you know, the crop needle has a teardrop shaped end, very round, so it would be very difficult to puncture the crop. Susanne and I compared notes briefly and there are positives and drawbacks to both the needle and the catheter. The needle is stainless and so can be well disinfected but you have to take good care of it so you don't get a tiny burr in the metal that could scratch the bird. I keep mine in a padded box. The catheter is usually made of a rubber or plastic material, which can not be 100% disinfected. The plastic or rubber can also become brittle or chewed and the material can get accidentally swallowed. It is more flexable however.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Urg...I stopped giving Allie the probiotics for a few days and guess what I just found? Seedy poop again!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, all the new things you're giving her may also upset her system a bit. Change is hard, but she definitely needs it.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'll unfreeze the water and start giving it to her again. Lol. I put the gallon jug in the deep-freeze, then I thaw it out, shake it up, and pour 16 oz in a travel bottle to keep in the fridge. That way it doesn't take up too much space. She is going to stress me out, I just know it!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I started her on probiotics again and I don't think she's drank any of the water yet but her last poop only had one seed in it. So maybe it's just stress.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Remember, it could take her months for her system to really stabilize and recover. It definitely did with Roo. So try not to worry too much if it takes some time to get her all figured out.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah, but Casey mentioned PDD to me so I'm a little uneasy right now..


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The thing about PDD is that just about EVERYTHING can be a symptom of it. But it's really very rare. Really. I did a ton of research when Roo was losing weight. I really think if she had it, she'd be a lot sicker than she is, especially considering the conditions she was in before. If she had PDD without any support or attempt at proper nutrition, I doubt she would have made it this far. Plus it doesn't seem like she has any of the other symptoms like vomiting or neurological issues. I know it's tough, but try not to dwell on it.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah I figure i'd only consider it if she gets worse rather than better on the treatment plan we've got her set up on.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I would really only consider it if you rule out EVERYTHING else. One other thought -- Did you have any tests at all done? Gram stain or fecal flotation? You might consider the possibility of parasites if not. She was in an outside aviary, right?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She didn't have any tests done..if the seed poop persists then I'll be calling the vet about it. And she was in an outdoor cage, 3 ft off the ground, so I don't think that puts her at any of a higher risk.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, but, with an outdoor cage there's always the possibility of a wild bird pooping into the cage, or contaminated rain water/other objects getting in even if it's not from the ground. I'm not saying I think you need to panic about parasites right now, just that it's a definite rule-out if the current treatment doesn't do the trick.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'll definitely keep watch on her...any poops she gives me gets smeared to check for seed. 

On another note, I'm trying to sprout seed so lets hope it works and hope Allie eats it; that'll be a big step toward veggies. Funny story--my dog actually inspired me to sprout today. I've been meaning to try it for a while, but yesterday he ran by Allie's cage and he (jealous) grabbed a mouthful of her food. I threw that out of course. But today I went to change his water bowl and there were sprouted millet seed in it because he dropped it in there getting a drink.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

That is cute! Even my picky eaters like sprouts so hopefully Allie will


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well yesterday she shook her head around and got the doxy into her nares and she freaked me out because I thought she had aspirated the medicine. Well today the booger did the SAME THING. I thought she had swallowed it all and she was throwing a fit being wrapped in the towel, so I set her loose and she runs off and starts shaking her head and sneezing. So I put her in her cage to settle down. I hope she doesn't do this everyday because it's really frustrating and it scares me.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Seriously, that's exactly what Sunny does. Sometimes he'll even keep it in his mouth for like ten minutes after I've given it to him. They're amazingly stubborn when they want to be.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I looked in her mouth, she clicked her beak and moved her tongue like she swallowed it, and then she got it in her nares again. I'm going to have to hold her in that towel for a long time to be sure she has taken it.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sounds like someone's going to be getting a lot of scritches.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She doesn't want scritches when I wrap her up..believe me, I try so that she won't get too stressed. But she is just always like "LET ME OUTTA THIS THANG!!" And then she flies off because she knows I'll hold her head steady to keep her from shaking.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Is it possible they get it into their nares from the hole inside the mouth that leads to the nares? I didn't even know about that until the vet showed me Bailey's (she was showing me how a vit A deficiency shotens the papillae around that hole. I forgot what it is called.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's called the choana. And yes, they can get things in their sinuses that way.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks, I guess I need birdie anatomy 101!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Lol, I was like well I didn't put the medicine in THERE, Jaime! And yes, very possible as I've witnessed. Casey (DallyTsuka) told me her birds do this with their water sometimes.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Through the choana is actually the primary way they get it in their sinuses from shaking their heads, at least from what my vet explained. It's not that it gets flung around and lands on the exterior part of their nares, it's that they sort of toss it up through the choana the way we might cough.


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