# I wouldn't call this stunted BUT



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

I have asked alot of questions about our 3 new chicks , and hopefully I haven't made a nuisance of myself yet. LOL

I say this because i have another one. The last hatched chick "Q" is not developing as rapidly as the other two. I realize I am comparing Q to a couple of chicks that while just 2-3 days older are really more advanced then that would seem.

However Q isn't developing feathers as quickly and thoroughly as Q's two siblings. I had some concern about Pucking at first since there was some scaping on Q and Tray and even deuce. But I cleaned all the bloody areas a few days ago and no new bleeding nor scaping has been seen since. 

That said Q only has some smallish Flights and a short growth of tail feathers along with the down on it's back and some stubble of a crest on the head. 

This is distributing while the other two are beginning to really become covered and we can even see Tray is going to be Pied since there is feathers of all colors even now. However when I got concerned about the last chick being STUNTED I took out the scale and weighed all 3 since Q really doesn't look too much shorter than the other two just more BALD. LOL But I was wondering if Q was under weight also. 

How do these weights seem to you all? deuce the first hatched on Aug 8 and now 17 days old weighed in at 79 grams before being hand feed. Tray the second hatched on Aug 9 and now 16 days old weighs 88 grams and is seemingly stonger since it can stand with it's legs straightened. And Q hatched on Aug 11 or 14 days old while substantially lighter still weighs 51 grams before being hand feed.( and when on the scale also stands erect and trys to walk around .)

All three chicks are still getting parent feed but Q seems to get served last and sometimes may get over looked so I make sure to hand feed Q a little more than the other two , whose crops are not nearly as often empty as Q's and the other two's crops seem to have a lot more seed/ solids in them ( firmer) than Q's at any time.

But other than the lack of feathers isn't that a fairly good weight for a 2 weekold chick? And maybe the other 2 at 16-17days old may be on the chubby side?

So if my assumptions are correct about their weights what can I do to help Q not be so naked for so long?

BUDDYD


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Rats...I can't find my pixs when I need them. Look at the end of the tail. Of all the feathers are flush, and all straight across the ends, then not stunted yet. If the tail feathers notch up into a -_*^-*_ then a little stunting is going on.

Ah...I found a pix (not the ones looking for though)...ALSO watch the pinfeathers. They should lie smooth and flat to the body contours. If they look spikey looking similar to this baby pix then it's not doing good and will need alittle extra heat, and the supplemental feeding should be just a little thinner for good hydration.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Once again Susanne THANKS*

Susanne I can assure you Q doesn't look like that pic IMHO Q is much bigger even if not as big as Q should be ( but I still am not sure of that.LOL )

Q's tail feathers are straight across though shorter . In fact they look almost like one brush like feather than a series of pin feathers. However that chick does seem to have MORE feathers than Q or maybe the same amount on a bigger body. But they do lie much flatter and smother and do show signs of opening on the ends as normal feathers will. ( BTW Q is going to be much WHITER IMO)

And I am already thinning his formula to the point it can pour into a Large basting syringe that I use to fill the smaller child's medicine syringe I feed the chicks with ( 2 syringes full each at least as much as 3 times a day with the supplement you suggested adding)

But if I may ask again how does the 51 grams sound for a 2 week old chick? It is hard to tell if Q is developing OK when the other two are so much larger ( 79g and 88g and much better plumed) Also what can be done to help grow feathers. BTW maybe the fact that UNO looked so bare wasn't completely from PLUCKING but could it be a genetic quirk? But then when I pulled UNO and hand feed him solely he did grow his feathers as he should . But I am not sure if that was the hand feeding or the isolating or both.

But I am confident that all 3 of these chicks aren't at this time being plucked any longer at least. But even the second chick is oddly developing ( stands and walks on it's own more) quicker and weighing more ( 88g to 79g )than the first. and all 3 are feed the same by me with the exception of the first 2 getting more than Q and the crop is denser than Q's is at any time. In fact the parents are no longer looking for the softer foods and devouring more seed than ever before. To that end I have added some smaller Budgie seed in an effort to make their regurgitation's less dense.

BTW some of the Tiel seed I buy does have some larger striped Sunflower seed in it and Sweetie came to me with a mix that had more sunflower seed in it and she is very found of it. I even tried to break her of that by adding a treat cup of shelled Pumpkin seeds and she nor Drago care for them at all but dig out any and all sunflower seeds leaving a cover of empty shells.

They won't eat any pellets of any kind and even avoid the ones in the Teil mix. So wher do I go from here or should I worry since maybe Q is coming along OK, just a bit more naked than others?LMAO And could being the last hatched and Lutino have any affects? Those Pink eyes are weird looking after seeing all dark ones. Also Q has a strange habit of curling it's head back on it;s back between syringes almost like a curl, but then leans forward when put back in the Nest, and loses those feeding air sacks that I can't burp out.

Do I sound concerned???? Only because I am. LMAO ( Marie and I truly wanted to geta white Teil even bfore this clutch. So I can't loose this gift any more than the other beautufully differet baby Mutations in this clutch.)

BUDDYD


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_*Also Q has a strange habit of curling it's head back on it;s back between syringes almost like a curl, but then leans forward when put back in the Nest, and loses those feeding air sacks that I can't burp out.*_
_*----------------------------------------------*_


Can you get a pix?...or does it look anything like this?


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Why do I feel I am going to be sorry?*

Susanne that is a bit more pronounced but YES it is very similar to what Q does when being feed. Q doesn't hold it's beak opened like that but the is very much like Q's head positioning with the exception of the bulge in your Pix neck. Q seems to assume this position much less stress fully than that chick appears.

Also when ever I see any descriptive example of what i suspect maybe wrong with Q the model image is of a much younger looking and much smaller chick. I am going to get a couple of Pics later today ( have a neighbor's funeral to attend this Am )but I am beginning to increasingly worry about whether Q is going to survive , even with my best efforts. I sincerely hope I am too much a worry wart.

BUDDYD

BTW I am amazed that even with your many years and extremely Large flock you always seem to have a Pix of any weird malady I can describe. You are with out a doubt a God send and a font of information to have on this forum and to any Teil owner. I deeply appreciate your help.


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## whytedragon (Jun 8, 2009)

I agree, if it weren't for Susanne's stunning array of pictures and information, I would have never known how to properly mix formula and how to properly care for my chicks. Whenever I question something, I check her site first and foremost. Thank you Susanne, it is truly appreciated!

BTW: I do have some stunted chicks, one being very stunted, if you want i'll take a picture, but they are not Cockatiels but Budgies.


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## dragon_tiels (Aug 24, 2009)

BuddyD said:


> BTW I am amazed that even with your many years and extremely Large flock you always seem to have a Pix of any weird malady I can describe. You are with out a doubt a God send and a font of information to have on this forum and to any Teil owner. I deeply appreciate your help.


I agree 100%! I think you are awesome Susanne...but you already knew that...lol

MAYBE because the baby is a lutino, it might be smaller than the others. I just looked at the weights of my youngest and at 13 days when I pulled him/her, she was 58 grams and 4 days later she weighed 76 grams, now though she is my biggest baby, so I think it is safe to say that it is still fine (when it comes to weight). Also I pulled a normal grey that is 3 days older than her and he/she weighed 81 grams at 16 days old. Just keep weighing and make sure it is still increasing.


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## dragon_tiels (Aug 24, 2009)

Also last year when I had a plucker, the babies always looked stunted to me. I hope it is alright.


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## Birdlette (Feb 25, 2009)

Susanne, what is this curling thing all about??? I remember looking at a brief video on this site yesterday of an adult throwing its head back. Are the two behaviours related??


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thanks All 

With the chick I posted, it is called a 'start gazer' here is a pix when she was older. I had to give supportive care and supplements of Vitamin E with selenium to correct it...


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## dragon_tiels (Aug 24, 2009)

You're Welcome!

It did get corrected...right? Poor birdy, she is so pretty! Was she able to stand normal with effort to eat and such?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes...a few fews after that last pix she was back to normal. I've only had this happen a few times, and it tends to coincide in the fall when suppliers are using up their old stores of seed, and grains for seed mixes and pellets, prior to the new harvests coming in. I learned that how a grain/feed is stored has alot to do with nutrient content. With our summer heat alot of food stuff for birds/animals are stored in silo's. Silos build up heat which can also degrade nutrient content.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Are "Star Gazers" always constant gazers?*

OK Susanne et al here are the latest pics of "Q" before I just hand feed all 3 chicks and Q after i gave Q one syringe full of formula. I also took some Pics of the other two and all their wings extended. I think if you bringup the thumbnail and then double click on the resulting image you can magnify it and move aroun to get acloser look at an specific feature you wish to see.

I used the title I did because Q doesn't always Star Gaze . However it is most prevalent after ingesting formula. I don't know if Q does that nay other time , but have seen Q go in the opposite direction and hang the head down instead of UP.

Q is getting stronger even today from yesterday since Q tries to walk around when not in a container , and does so almost as normally as Tray who is the most coordinated of all the chicks even though Deuce is a day older.

Also Susanne how would I get and treat Q as you did and from the adult image do Star Gazers stay looking up through out their life?

But on another subject , I am sure the lack of Plumage on Q is very evident , and if any of you remeber UNO seemed to have the same deficiency till I pulled and hand feed him. But amybe it wasn't a plucking problem but a genetic or dietary deficiency. 

The last image is all 3 of this clutch in a Bowl together . Ithink it may give some gauage of how big Q is grown comparatively to the older and more normal feathered and non Star gazing siblings.

I will add images of the other two and maybe an OLD pix of UNO when UNO was just weeks old,in another Post since 5 is the MAX number of attachments allowed.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Q' siblings to compare to*

I am posting images of Deuce and Tray alone and in my hand with their wings spread. I also hope i can find and post a pix when UNO was just a couple of weeks older to show how UNO 's feathering progressed back then. I am really ( from an uninformed pointof view) beginning to wonder as i said if the lack of feathers when they are less than 5-6 weeks old is either or both genetic and / or Dietary. But take alook and let me know how off base my guess is.

I sure hope for poor Q that the StarGazeing is both temprary and cureable or that Q has a minor case of it or something differnt entirely, since Q doesn't always Star Gaze.

Susanne if you are trreating this with Vitamins and suppliments is this some neurological quirk? So if so could feeding or stres ( good or bad) trigger this condition ?


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Do you rememberUNO at 3-4 weeks old?????*

Look at the other 3's older brother when he was just about the same age or maybe days older.

BTW Deuce ( the darker headed one) is 18 days hatched ( 79 grams) . Tray (the one witht he yellow pin crest ) is 17 days hatched ( 88 grams) . And Q the bald onewith the pink eyes)is 15 days hatched ( 51 grams).

Now what do i do for poor Q ???? and what should I change to have any future chicks get plummed quicker??


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

No...they do not have a feather disorder...that is plucking.

OK...look at the tails...you do have a slight *-^-* to the tailfeathers. The 2 center feathers should be the same length as the outside ones.

OK...garlic powder has some trace amounts of Seneium and E that may help with the slight star gazing. On all of them, I feel they might need a nutrient boost. Print out my spice remedy and add this to their handfeedings as instructed on the sheet.
http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/?action=view&current=SpiceRemedy-illus-A.jpg

As to myself I automatically add a good shake of garlic powder to the handfeeding formula on any babies I pull for the first week or so. It does not hurt them, but is a little added boost to the immune system.


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## Birdlette (Feb 25, 2009)

That is so curious... can I ask another question??? Was that the resting position for its head normally or did it just assume that position frequently or what and could it voluntarily move its head to eat, groom etc... Did you find it a home? That's more than one question... sorry!!

OOPS Didn't read all the posts before I wrote this... you have answered my questions for the most part....


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Birdlette...were you asking me the questions? If so...She could move her head, and twist it sideways to eat. Any she could move the neck around to groom. With supplements she evetually went back normal looking. I kept her and she lived to be approx 12 years old. She had babies and since it was a suspected nutritional malabsorption problem it was not something inherited to the next generation.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Thanks*

I am thanking both Birdette for asking and Susanne for replying ( both NOW and Earlier) . However I was fairly sure I knew what both would say and to whom the question was addressed.

I was asking Susanne some of the same questions since my poor little chick was what prompted this thread but Susanne's knowledge and experience is where I have gotten answers and hope.

I was truly worried that Star Gazing was permanent . However as Susanne has indicated and I now have discovered with the right dietary supplements this affliction can reverse itself.

Also if you look at my thumbnails of my chick Q you may see and agree that even Q doesn't a;ways hold it's head back facing the STARS but seems to do this inmy case after hand feeding it. However I don't think it is the feeding but the STRESS that brings it on. In fact Q can flop it's head down almost 180 degs in the opposite direction ( towards the floor) at times.

I have read that Star gazing can affect all sorts of Birds and even reptiles ( lizards and snakes). 

In the way of hope for little Q , Q is beginning to develop more plummage and is gaining wait in just the few days since I first asked about this condition.

Q weighed in at 51 grams. when I first weighed all the chicks and this morning just ,2 days later ,now weighs 75 grams. I am hand feeding Q and Tray/19days old (103 g after feeding ) and Deuce /20 days Old( 95g after feeding) Embrace, laced with Susanne's spice mixture along with some Yogurt and Brewer's Yeast ( which I just got this morning) 

I tired to dust the parents food with some of the same and when I did they avoided the very foods they liked. So for now I'll keep doing as Susanne suggest and add it to the 3x Daily feedings I hand feed.

But as i said Susnne's Bird and all I have read say that if cared for properly Star Gazing is indeed reversible with time and loving care.
BUDDYD

BTW UNO (appx. 3.5 months old) these chicks older sibling weighs 97 g with self feeding and none of these supplements. So it sure seems that this supplemental diet is helping more than Star Gazing problems IMHO.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Buddy...What good news!!! It sounds like the babies are doing great.


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## whytedragon (Jun 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> No...they do not have a feather disorder...that is plucking.
> 
> OK...look at the tails...you do have a slight *-^-* to the tailfeathers. The 2 center feathers should be the same length as the outside ones.
> 
> ...


I tried the garlic thing on my smallest chick, and boy does my bird room stink now! LOL.


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

srtiels...
Not trying to doibt what you are saying, but i always though garlic was toxic to birds so why would it be safe for the use for these babies to treat this condidtion?

I am not trying to say you are wrong but it was something i found out when i researched it for parrot poisons!

HAve you ever had any problems adding this small amount into their food or any problems later on in life?

Please dont take this as a criticism cos the information you have provided is very very interesting.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*OK! the new guy is going to get in trouble*

I'll bet if you do a search of this forums archives you will not only find both points of view on Garlic , but alot of non-seed foods some one has asked about.

I did just that for a few substances but I just did it with "GARLIC" and some sware it is deadly and others say it is Medicinal. Could any product be BOTH and how and what amount you See it make a huge difference? 

When I mixed Susanne's spice mix It called for 1 tsp of Garlic with 1/4 tsp of both Cinnamon and Ginger. But after mixing those proportions all you add to your daily Hand feeding formula is a PINCH.

I am no Culinary or Kitchen whiz but I daresay that any pinch is very small and then the % of these pinches that are GRALIC is somewhere near 66% of that PINCH. Is that SMALL enough?

Also whytedragon said the Cage room smelled horrible from the Garlic not dead or sick Tiels. More over from what little i now know Susanne Russo raises and breeds more top quality Tiels than 99.9 % of all who are on this forum and has done so for what seems to me to be a good while and if it works for her and she recommends it even now I would dare say that is good enough PROOF that even if some do say it is wrong they are WRONG and have been proven so by her great results.

IMHO this is another great example of a COMMON KNOWLEDGE argument that is really a MYTHCONCEPTION that has been accepted so long with out proof that it has come to a TRUISM>

What proof of how deadly Garlic is can anyone provide other than Hear say?

BUDDYD


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## whytedragon (Jun 8, 2009)

I would think TOO MUCH garlic, or raw garlic would be bad.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*But then TOO much of almost anything is BAD*

I am by no means an authority and I only have a little experience . That is why i check and recheck any thing I read. And as i said i even cross reference some of it with other sources that may not be influenced with what i originally read. That said i think if you just read the archives here yo will find that it is possible that too much water supplied by a clutches parents can be BAD. And that isn't something strange or exotic or even something that can be done with out . More over you'd ( or at least I) would think that parent birds who hunt various foods as a clutch matures wold know not to give TOO much water. Especially since from what I know Tiels don't need very much water at all by nature of their original geographical birth place . And even with the Mutations we breed they still drink very little , unless I have ben mislead from many sources. But still even WATER can be bad if given TOO much.

This medicinal amount of garlic probably isn't as much as is in some prepared foods we supply. But still i haven't heard anyone say ,"My bird died or evn became ILL from a small amount of garlic when nothing else could be the cause. Have you?

I'll bet if you do a search here you can find differing opinions for , salt, sunflower seeds, and a few other foods . But we all tend to accept what we hear most or aren't sure we can dispense.

BUDDY


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Hi...you can go you www.holisticbird.org and in the search box look up uses of garlic with birds.

Yes...as Buddy pointed out there are differences of opinions. Such opinions are based on what they have heard or read and some are from hands on extensive experience.

ANYTHING in excess can have a negative affect...and that can be with food stuffs that are not supposed to be harmful. For example handfeeding formula in excess to try and get weight onto a small chick can later lead to liver and other health problems. Most don't know this but they read on the internet that it is fine to pump 15-20cc into a tiel babies crop because the crop capacity can hold that much. Thats like saying my cars speedometer goes up to 180, why can't I go the max? Well there are conservative limits on how much to feed same as how fast to drive. it a person stays within those limits this greatly lessen the risk of things going wrong. With over feeding a chick the risk of slow/sour crop is higher, to total GI staisis. Overfeeding a nutrient dense food can allow add to body fats and contribute to future liver problems, and I have seen so breeders have total liver failure with weaning/weaned babies. Actually it was through feeding excess formula that I personally learned this, and high vet bills that I started learning holistic treatments and was a member of Holistic Bird at the time I developed the Spice Remedy. I use alot less garlic than many of the group recommended at the time.

As to garlic, as Buddy had mentioned it was a pinch...and *must be* garlic powder, not garlic salt. garlic salt can be problematic, with excess salt to mess up the metabolic system. As to garlic being toxic, as to the root/bulb portion, I don't beleive so. I can't say as to the stalks or flower portion of the plant. 

As to the use of the garlic powder produced problems later in life, I still have several birds from early 2000 when I first started using it and they are fine, and the 2 generations from them are fine.


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks that was very interesting to know about the garlic situation. It was good to know it would not cause long term problems used in the right situations as medicinally like you have stated and using the correct form of it.

Thanks for clearing that up and making it make sense in my mind.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*I am hoping I am not jinxing my chick*

I haven't taken any recent PIXs but the three chicks( Deuce. Tray. and Q )all seem to be doing fine and IMHO Q is Star Gazing less even now. So I have strong hope Q may be normal in time. In fact the most common times Q rears his head back is right after I hand feed them and when Q is trying to look behind him since I guess it is easier to extend his neck and roll his head backwards. (LOL but not gladly) It Almost seems like a nervous reaction to things thta scare him or when Q is excited.

I really am upset with how slowly they are feathering and I can see small fluffy feathers all over Deuce and tray and Q has white pin feathers all over the body , so I don't think they are still being plucked if in deed they where.

But Sweetie the Mother does snap at them if they crowd her too much when startled. But it seem to be more disciplinary move.

I do have a question I can't remeber if I asked and can't find it in the SEARCH section. When is it OK for a chick to leave the nest? UNO did when he was about 4 weeks old. And now Deuce did today and Deuce is one day over 4 weeks. He isn't completely feathered but none of them are. Yet he did even flutter / fly from one perch to another , But I haven't seen Deuce try to peck at anything on his own while Tray is constantly examining the Pine shavings.

In Fact i thought for a while , till Deuce was the first out the Nest that Tray might have been a day older and I got them mixed up since Tray walks upright better and is more completely Plummed.

While still a bit naked they are really getting big. I guess in defense of Sweetie who does run to them when ever they chirp and as soon as I return them from Hand feeding , that with the 4 of them in the Nest Box it does get cramped especially when they crawl all over , even on top of one another. And it only gets worst when Drago joins them.Thank God I bought the Big version of nest box. The one I had before was wonderfully constructed with side slats that lifted and a bottom slat that acted as a barricade and also a concave bottom that was removable for cleaning, But it was almost half as big as this one.

So when do y'all think I can let them leave the nest safely and continue to hand feed them?


BuddyD


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