# Help regarding cockatiel with bumblefoot or Gout



## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi great site..Hope someone can give me some advice..

My cockatiel who is about 22yrs old has bumble foot in one of his feet ,that is what the avian vet seems to think ..first they thought it could be gout.


This happened after we fitted a concrete type perch to help trim his nails as he has never really been handled .We took him on after a family member passed away.Before that he had dowel perches right across his cage as he is a little clumsy and not as steady on his feet..We have since removed the concrete perch and refitted his dowel perches back.

He only ever uses the dowel perches to cross near to his water dish which is not far from his food dish and mainly stands on his food dish to eat and to whistle for attention.


Now the problem started in early dec 2011 ..he has been on baytril antibiotcs since then and flamazine for his foot..We are not sure if the perches caused it or a toe nail that bent inwards (which is always clipped back now).

We also clean his cage with providone -iod surgical scrub diluted down.

The avian vet said he lacked some vitamins due to eating only dry seeds all his life..We now add some calcivet drops to his food and also sprinkle some daily essentials from the birdcare company to suppliment his diet.


Some days his foot looks really swollen and then other days it looks like the swelling is going,also one of his nails is black on that foot..Since having the suppliments he is back to his perky self and climbing all over his cage like he is a young one again lol.

Can anyone please offer me any more advice as it seems to be taking forever to heal.I have read all about bumble foot etc..He also sleeps on a plastic platform which i have covered with some soft paper towels so his foot does not contact the plastic bars..He also has plenty of newspaper on the bottom of his cage for when he decides to wonder about.Also i soak some cotton pads in the diluted providone onto the edeges of his food dish so they are soft on his feet and also help keep his foot clean.

I know some may say change his perches but he very rarley uses them ,only when going for a drink..He does let me cut his nails now but he does not like it.Also he has had fits in the past so we try not to upset him by handling him too much.

I know this is a little long winded but thought i'd try and not miss anything out.

Any advice much appreciated ,he is happy enough ,eating ,drinking and showing off etc.

Thanks in advance.Would just like to see his foot back to normal again.


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

Wrapping the dowel perches in vetwrap can help give his foot some comfort — sitting on the dowel perches day after day is not going to really improve it at all. 

The swelling could be from infection, should it continue to swell (even if it goes down), you may find he will become lame and it will be extremely hard to fix if it got to that. 

Apparently “Arnica” can help for Bumblefoot: http://www.greenandhealthy.info/arnica.html This is however something you need to discuss with you Avian Vet about.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Hi and welcome to the forum 

This is a long thread from another forum member that may have some info: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=26290


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Solace. said:


> Wrapping the dowel perches in vetwrap can help give his foot some comfort — sitting on the dowel perches day after day is not going to really improve it at all.
> 
> The swelling could be from infection, should it continue to swell (even if it goes down), you may find he will become lame and it will be extremely hard to fix if it got to that.
> 
> Apparently “Arnica” can help for Bumblefoot: http://www.greenandhealthy.info/arnica.html This is however something you need to discuss with you Avian Vet about.



Thanks for the quick response ,i did but some bandages on his dowels but he kept pooing on them ,i soaked them in the providone but had to keep replacing them everytime he did his business as this was quite alot of times replacing.Did not think of the vetwrap ,just as soon as i put the bandages on he poo's on them ..i might remove some perches so that he cannot poo on them as they are close to where he stands on his food dish.Just want the best for him and trying to make it easier for him to get about if he needs to walk across his dowels for his water.

Much appreciated.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Get him some rope perches!  these won't need to be wrapped and are actually called "Comfy Perches" because they're good for our birds feet. My birds love them.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Yes, I think rope perches are a good idea. Hopefully, the prior post on bumblefoot will help. Please keep us posted on how your tiel is doing.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Thanks for the link ,just had a long read.


Just like to add that i went to my local vet for some vet wrap which i have put on one of the dowels and removed the other altogether so he cannot poo on them when he stands on his dish .He does spend alot of time standing on his dish ,which i have added some cotton wool pads dipped in the provodine which keeps them on the dish,my only concern is that these are wet for awhile then they dry out and sometimes fall off.Will keeping them damp cause his foot any further problems ?

Also does anyone reckon the baytril is any good for lengthly periods ,like i say he has been on them since early dec 2011.Just want to do the best for him ..not sure what to do next ..could kick myself if the original cause was the concrete perch i got to trim his nails which is long gone now.

Here are a few pics of his foot ,he has always had a toe nail on that foot that grows funny even when his foot was fine.Also you can see the red vetwrap on his dowel behind him and the cotton pads on his dish where he stands all the time.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

bjknight93 said:


> Get him some rope perches!  these won't need to be wrapped and are actually called "Comfy Perches" because they're good for our birds feet. My birds love them.


Hi thanks for replying..he won't really stand on anything else but his food dish as you can see from my pics above..He will then go and sleep on his platform which has paper towels over the plastic bars for his feet .He only ever uses the dowel to go for some water and usually to his other platform.He does not perch himself on the dowels at all ..He always sits on the food dish as mentioned until he gets tired or goes and eats his millitt near the platform and his calcium block.

Much appreciated.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

In looking at your pix's the swelling of the joints look like it is Articular gout. The bumblefoot, if there is a sore under the pad of the foot can be a secondary problem from compromised kidneys (excess protein in the diet) and more bacteria related than anything else.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

moved to next page as i was already editing my post and then got an answer.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

From looking at your pix's the Bumblefoot is a *secondary problem*. The Bayril is only going to help with the secondary problem. The *primary health issue* also needs to be addressed.

Initial treatment would be a medication called *allopurinol*. Usually you will see a dramatic improvement with the bird within a day. 

Reduce proteins sources in the diet.

Other helpful things are adding a small amount of cranberry or cherry juice to the drinking water. This helps to break down some of the crystals in the joint formed from the uric acid. 

Hulled oats (oat groats) helps to reduce uric acid levels. These can sometimes be found at Whole foods, in their bulk foods section.

Celery greens and seeds are good for renal problems and act as an antiseptic to disinfect the urinary tubules. Celery is an excellent food that digests well with almost anything else. It contains the necessary mineral sodium, which is present in a ratio that can be easily accessed by the body. Sodium is critical, along with the mineral potassium, in managing the body's electrolyte balance. Electrolytes create electric osmotic pressure which helps the body to move fluids through the cell's membranes. It can be eaten with any other vegetable. 


The silk from ear corn (organically grown or a herbal extract) will sooth the damaged urinary tract, and improve urine flow. Plus corn silk is a source of potassium, Vitamin C and K. 

Plain grass, roots and all (no joke, cats/dogs will eat this if they have urinary problems) will benefit both the liver and kidneys. Dandilion greens helps with the liver, but it also aids the kidneys by stimulating them to remove toxins in the urine. 

The above is a few simple things to help those with renal/kidney problems. I've personally used many of the above things to help the bird and not lose it.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*as he got so distressed that he had about 6 fits one after another and had to have an injection to calm him down ..that was last year *

It sounds like he may have several problems going on. The section on Lighting in this link will be very beneficial: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27549 

In addition to the lighting you will want to provide foods that have Calcium, and Vitamin A. Click on this link, and if you click on the *W* column for calcium and then Vit A it will list foods from the highest to lowest with these nutrients: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22114

This will help with him stressing and the fits.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

srtiels said:


> In looking at your pix's the swelling of the joints look like it is Articular gout. The bumblefoot, if there is a sore under the pad of the foot can be a secondary problem from compromised kidneys (excess protein in the diet) and more bacteria related than anything else.



Thank you for replying..under his foot it just looks swollen like it is hard if that makes sense..cannot see any cuts or sores on the bottom of his foot.

The second avian vet who seen him said it could be gout? any guidence appreciated..My avian vet lives quite a distance from me and did not want to take blood tests etc as he got so distressed that he had about 6 fits one after another and had to have an injection to calm him down ..that was last year .The second avian vet who said it could be gout did not have him out of the cage too long and he was fine that time which was about 6weeks ago.

What you say regarding the gout could be right and maybe this is all he has and not bumble foot ? maybe the first vet just put it down to bumble foot and could be wrong as the second vet said it could be gout.would bumble foot look like how i described it ?quite swollen underneath of the pad but no cuts or sores on the pad? there does seem to be a little sore near his elbow joint but not sure if this is caused with it rubbing on the food dish when he stands on it.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*would bumble foot look like how i described it ?quite swollen underneath of the pad but no cuts or sores on the pad? there does seem to be a little sore near his elbow joint but not sure if this is caused with it rubbing on the food dish when he stands on it.*

I posted above with several helpful things you can do to help him. Since it does appear to be Gout, you might go back the the vet that suggested it wasd and ask if he can prescribe a medication called *allopurinol* for him.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd just like to add that i am from the uk..i have been putting calcivet drops in his food and he has the daily essentials 3 powder form sprinkled on his food (2 pinches a day) from the birdcare company ..

Just need to take in what i need to do as there are posts made before i make mine and i am playing catch up.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

cockatielfriend said:


> Thank you for replying..under his foot it just looks swollen like it is hard if that makes sense..cannot see any cuts or sores on the bottom of his foot.
> 
> The second avian vet who seen him said it could be gout? any guidence appreciated..My avian vet lives quite a distance from me and did not want to take blood tests etc as he got so distressed that he had about 6 fits one after another and had to have an injection to calm him down ..that was last year .The second avian vet who said it could be gout did not have him out of the cage too long and he was fine that time which was about 6weeks ago.
> 
> What you say regarding the gout could be right and maybe this is all he has and not bumble foot ? maybe the first vet just put it down to bumble foot and could be wrong as the second vet said it could be gout.would bumble foot look like how i described it ?quite swollen underneath of the pad but no cuts or sores on the pad? there does seem to be a little sore near his elbow joint but not sure if this is caused with it rubbing on the food dish when he stands on it.


Thank you very much for your time ,i am reading all the helpful suggestions just catching up with the posts as i type .


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*i have been putting calcivet drops in his food and he has the daily essentials 3 powder form sprinkled on his food (2 pinches a day) from the birdcare company ..*

This is *not* going to correct his problem. In fact if the calcivet is a calcium supplement and *used in excess* it could cause more damage to the kidneys.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

srtiels said:


> *i have been putting calcivet drops in his food and he has the daily essentials 3 powder form sprinkled on his food (2 pinches a day) from the birdcare company ..*
> 
> This is *not* going to correct his problem. In fact if the calcivet is a calcium supplement and *used in excess* it could cause more damage to the kidneys.


The calcivet and the essentials 3 are supplements recommended by my avian vet  should i stop these and try with the natural products as suggested? he has been more lively since having these as he is climbing round the cage and really happy! I have had a read on what you said regarding the allopurinol but it also says it can be bad for birds so feel reluctant to try it..are there any other medicines to treat gout.

Thanks


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Over the years I have dealt with gout with my birds. I tried ALL types of remedies. Until you can get him on allopurinol (which *does work)* and I have never had any ill effects from it.....try the other things listed in that posting.

If you prefer to follow your vets advice, then continue with what you are doing.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd just like to add that i am at a loss as what to do next ! my avian vet said to give him some supplements as stated above because he has always been on just a seed and millitt diet before we got him,calcivet and essentials 3 ..but then i read here the supplements can be bad etc...do i stop these and go to fresh veg( he does like fresh carrot that we give him) trouble is i don't want to overdose him with vitamins ...At the moment his appetite is good,he is drinking fine and is happy..It's just his swollen foot that is the problem i just want the best for him..


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

srtiels said:


> Over the years I have dealt with gout with my birds. I tried ALL types of remedies. Until you can get him on allopurinol (which *does work)* and I have never had any ill effects from it.....try the other things listed in that posting.
> 
> If you prefer to follow your vets advice, then continue with what you are doing.


The trouble is i don't know whether my vet is right with the treatment.She is a well respected avian vet over here in the uk so you can see my dilemma


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Did your vet do bloodwork to look at the uric acid levels? If the foot looked like it does when you went to the vet, to an experienced avian vet it is obvious that it is gout. In addition to the swelling it is very very painful.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

srtiels said:


> Did your vet do bloodwork to look at the uric acid levels? If the foot looked like it does when you went to the vet, to an experienced avian vet it is obvious that it is gout. In addition to the swelling it is very very painful.


When we first took him to the vet last year ,it was for a general check up and his nails to be clipped.This is when he had all those fits because he was out of his cage too long .So we were advised to get one of those perches to help trim his nails down.This is when his foot problem seemed to start or maybe just a coincidence ! We rang the vet up and explained about his foot which she thought might be bumble foot and told us to get rid of the perch and put his dowel perches back . she also told us to get some baytril antibiotic and provodine wash for his cage and perches and some flamazine for his foot from our local vet rather than upsetting him by taking him back there.

After a while when the meds was not working we rang her back up and decided to take a chance by taking him back.The first vet we originally saw was away so we seen the other avian vet at the practice who said it was gout but told us to keep using the baytril which he's still on and really not doing anything.She did mention over blood work but did not want to stress him further and told us to see how he goes and add supplements to his diet.

obviously the baytril is not working.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Hmm, it sounds like the 2nd vet thought it was gout but didn't want to contradict the first vet? I would take him back and ask for the proper tests and medicines as being sick and in pain is more stressful then a vet visit.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Just like to add we have made an appointment to see the avian vet tomorrow morning .

Thanks to all who replied.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm betting this is gout and that is the reason the baytril is not working. Please stress to your vet that the baytril is not working *at all* and that he needs to be on a different med. Tell them that you personally think that it is gout and that you have done research and spoken to people who have experienced gout in their birds. Ask for a prescription of allopurinol so you can get this old bird healed! I wish you luck. :flowers:


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

bjknight93 said:


> I'm betting this is gout and that is the reason the baytril is not working. Please stress to your vet that the baytril is not working *at all* and that he needs to be on a different med. Tell them that you personally think that it is gout and that you have done research and spoken to people who have experienced gout in their birds. Ask for a prescription of allopurinol so you can get this old bird healed! I wish you luck. :flowers:


Thanks will mention the med that you and srtiels talk about..will let you know how we get on ..fingers crossed .

Much appreciated.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi ,just like to say traveled to the vets this morning (60mile round trip) vet looked at his foot and was not sure whether this is gout or a small growth or neither.asked about the allopurinol but was reluctant to give him any (if it is not gout ,vet said it could cause side affects so did not want to give us any).Asked about a blood sample and xrays but vet said he would need to have to be anesthetized and cannot do it with him awake . Because of his age and having fits in the past Vet said best to leave alone as he is getting about ok eating and happy etc.Told us to stop the baytril and see how he goes as his foot as no cuts ,grazes etc .Was hoping that we could have got some think to lesson the swelling .

He has shown no signs that he has a bad foot only by looking..He does not limp or any think and does climb all over his cage since having his extra vitamins that he was lacking.

Just wish we could do some think,just feel it was a wasted day and no wiser to what is causing it. The vet is really nice and understanding but does not want to risk anesthetizing him .


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

OK for the blood sample the bird wouldn't need to be anesthetized, all they have to do is cut a toe nail til it bleeds. It stings but doesn't really hurt the bird. As for the x-rays, the vet is probably right on that. Does he sit often with his eyes closed? Only asking because in tiels that's a sign of pain, which means that if it is Gout it could be causing pain. I hope he feels better.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I don't think they anesthetized Krissy to do her xray but I could be wrong. As for blood they can either do the nail or they can draw it from the neck...and it requires nothing but one person holding the bird and one person getting the blood sample.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi all,Regarding closing of the eyes ..no he is very active only closing his eyes when tired and at the same time yawning and beak crunching (he seems more active since having the extra supplements..he is up and down the cage like a 2yr old and whistling )surly if he was in pain he would not be acting the way he does ..i know they can hide things well but he is very lively apart from when he gets tired.To be honest i never thought about getting blood from the nail The vet said they get it from the jugular vain in the neck and they prefer to anesthetize birds so they are still and not moving about. 

He still stands on his dish while eating etc and just seems his normal self..if the foot was not swollen you would think there is nothing at all wrong with him.The vet said they did not want to do anything to him with the age and him not showing any signs of pain or discomfort.Just told us to see how he goes and if it got worse then we would have to try and sort it then.But like i keep saying ,they don't want to make the matter worse when he seems so fine in him self.They did say they would do the tests if we wanted it but they feel looking at him the way he is that they advise to leave him alone.

His age is why they prefer not to anesthetize and we also agree that we don't want him to go under the anesthetic.


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