# Apple Cider Vinegar (Debate)



## Renae

Lol.. this is interesting..

*Poster #1*



> Giving ACV to your birds is a bunch of BS! ACV is ACID! Giving ACV to your birds is an Ole wives tale.
> 
> Thing is nobody has the right amounts to give to birds who by their own weight and size would prescribe an amount not worthy of any medicinal (or otherwise) advantage to use it in the first place. Here is a good link which describes ACV (and all other Vinegar for that matter) which backs up what my DVM has been telling me for decades.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar#Apple_cider
> 
> It explains : "Vinegar is an acidic liquid processed from the fermentation of ethanol in a process that yields its key ingredient, acetic acid (also called ethanoic acid). "


*Poster #2*



> To each his own... Wikipedia also notes:
> 
> [edit] Infections
> Vinegar has been used to fight infections since Hippocrates, who lived between 460-377 BC, prescribed it for curing persistent coughs. Some studies have suggested vinegar may fight fungal infection,[citations needed] and it may also have antibacterial properties.[18]
> 
> The prescribed amount of ACV to a gallon of water is very weak. If you pour straight ACV down your bird's throat, yes you will have serious problems. I think following an avian vet's advice in this regard is best. I put all new birds coming into my home on the 1 T to 1 Gal water for at least 2 weeks. And it certainly cleared up a conure I had with diarhea within 3 days. The bird didn't need to be dosed with an antibiotic.
> 
> Yes, some old-time cures are suspect now.... Canary and pigeon breeders used to put a drop of clorox in their water to cure some problems. Also years ago they used to sell iodine drops to put in your budgie's water. Iodine is poisonous and a controlled substance if you want to buy a big bottle now. DON'T try these.
> 
> ACV diluted works for my birds. For people, supposedly 1 T a day of ACV is good for acid reflux. Ever try to swallow full strength ACV??? bleahhhhh!!!! Get a prescription. I thank you for noting the Wikepedia article, though. Reasearch is good...


*Poster #1*



> What you fail to notice is these points:
> 
> 1) you can not arbitrarily prescribe a dose across the board for every bird, BASED ON WEIGHT AND INTAKE!
> 
> 2) in amounts that show any sort of "old wives tales" remedy (DOSAGE) it would KILL the bird!
> 
> 3) that leaves you with such a small amount it would not prove to do anything but slowly deteriorate the bones in the bird "overtime" and then you wind up KILLING THE BIRD.
> 
> In any of the cases I outlined above there is just no justification in giving ACV to a bird period. Yes you might take it yourself but there is NO EVIDENCE THAT THIS WILL HELP YOU IN ANY WAY! Look, there is no place in the world where birds consume anything that is DISTILLED! Distillation is a human process that we do for ourselves, namely taking alcohol and other processes. Distilled water, distilled spirits, or anything else that is distilled is not for BIRDS!
> 
> Let's not confuse the things that we do for humans with the care and nutriment we give to our feathered companions. Leave the Doctoring to the DVM's. I would like to see where a DVM has prescribed ACV to birds! This information I will bring to my DVM who is animately against giving ACV and show her this Rx.


*Poster #2*



> "Holistic Care For Birds" by David McCluggage, DVM & Pamela Leis Higdon
> http://www.amazon.com/Holistic-Care-Bir ... 8-1#reader
> Apple Cider Vinegar
> 
> Organic apple cider vinegar is a wonderful product for the health of the intestinal system. It has a number of beneficial vitamins and minerals. Perhaps it is most useful as an acidifier of the intestinal tract and the entire body. It can be placed into the water bowl daily when needed. Indications for its use include chronic disbiosis, candida infections, chronic gram negative bacterial infections, chronic diarrhea due to an abnormal bacteria in the intestinal system, foul-smelling stools and proventricular dilatation disease.
> 
> Dose: 1 to 2 tablespoons in 8 ounces of water. You can flavor it with a little honey. Use it as the only source of water for one to two weeks at a time.
> 
> Reference: "Holistic Care for Birds" by David McCluggage, DVM & Pamela Leis Higdon


*Poster #1*



> Nice rebuttal however all the citations which you have posted (very good by the way!) are Holistic healers! None by any mainstream Traditional Western Medical Veterinarian.
> 
> As in all Holistic Healers they carry the following warning: Finally, we only include natural remedies because we assume that your primary care veterinarian or veterinary specialist will prescribe the needed pharmaceuticals and diagnostic testing.
> 
> We strongly believe in a cooperative relationship between you, your local traditional Western veterinarian, and a holistic veterinarian. As in the case of the only nationally accredited citation you offered with David McCluggage, DVM and the citation above was by his own web site!
> 
> Sure there a lot of Kooks out there as in your Spicegood citation and has been throughly and exhaustively dismissed in many of her observations and recommendations as having no scientific merit what so ever. And her photo in her "flight suit" still reigns in my minds eye at every mention of her name.
> 
> The rest of your reply was either formed or postulated in terms of either a discussion of acids and bases (remember I already have a degree- BA- Cal-Berkeley) so all I can assume is that you are appalling a discussion in depth of the nature of PH which I will concur. However the last note on the bottom seems to be either lacking substance, goes in the grain of what your other postings seems to imply or again lacks any scientific merit what so ever. Described in that way it appears ACV is our silver bullet and will cure all that ails us! ....rofl.
> 
> Bring the science, not the humanities, to a scientific discussion and you will improve your standing not only in the academic environment but also those who read your writing. I'm hoping for big things from you, keep up the good work! If you have something in this field (ACV) I'd like you to present it logically and in a scientific format so we can light up the world.
> 
> For the time being, ACV and the other Homeopathic remedies are just that!


*Poster #2*



> I'm afraid then to disappoint you, because I am not in the belief that there is one single right answer, or way of doing something. ACV is indeed acidic, but so are oranges and lemons. I'm sure there are plenty of parrots out there who love oranges, and quite a few owners who spritz fresh foods with a little lemon juice to keep it fresher just a little longer. Are you then saying that citric fruits are bad for birds?
> 
> Lemon juice has a pH of 2.4. Vinegar has a pH of 2.9. Orange juice is about 3.5 pH. I can't find anything that says the pH level of ACV but most are saying within the range of 5-7. Pure water has a pH of 7. There's a lot of old folk remedies, but I can't believe that they are all bad for your health. Sure, maybe they are not a "cure all" as many of them may try to make you believe, but some of the stuff, in moderation, can't be all that bad for your body. Granted, I'll admit, some of them probably aren't good for you, either.
> 
> BTW, thought I'd also give this link... Everything is copyright by Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P. http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/avianmeds.html vinegar, can be used in drinking water (apple cider) to treat gastrointestinal yeast infections, also can be applied topically to mucosa of cloaca (everted) to check for evidence of papillomas
> 
> Sure, ACV may do nothing, or perhaps there could be some unknown side effect. It shouldn't be considered a cure but perhaps more of a supplement, something that may be good, but should not be given frequently. Although Tina may not give her parrots ACV, she does use it for anti-bacterial properties. She does however recommend other supplements for parrots... I'm sure you are familiar with the list, no? http://www.freewebs.com/macaw672/feedingyourparrot.htm
> 
> If a bird is sick, a persons best bet is to take that bird to an avian vet - as treating at home could make things worse, not better. However, not everyone has access to avian vets (and I'm not talking about people who live in just North America, either). If possible, these people need to get a phone consultation with an avian vet, or if one is available, have their vet work with avian vets.
> 
> I just don't think that everything should be dismissed if it's not "traditional Western medicine" as everything has it's pro's and con's. That's easily seen with all the warnings on the labels of medicine.


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## Renae

Last post.........

*Poster #1*



> You have supplied the quote of all quotes:
> 
> By Dr. Margaret A. Wissman, D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P.
> 
> in which she lists 'FOR OTHER VET'S" not pet owners, her course of treatment and their med's
> 
> http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/avianmeds.html
> 
> However her extensive articles about water, water quality, and the use of acids in their water supply should be of special note! Furthermore her use of ACV is exhaustive but not without the more preferred Rx (prescriptions) that have showed better in the treatment of gastrointestinal yeast infections, IE; Nystatin, Diflucan and other anti-fungal treatments.
> 
> Also any treatment of these in the anti fungal family say quite eloquently, not to be prescribed for longer periods than six months because they can be harmful if taken for a very long time. What is at topic here is the use of ACV in a normal drinking water supply (USE OF SUCH OVER MORE THAN 6 MONTHS TIME FRAME) is what I am against. Also the use of such without a DVM's strict oversight!
> 
> So are we using a Homeotropic medicine, when a much better one administered by a DVM under prescription that is better at solving the problem and under their constant care and supervision is over shadowed by ACV? We shouldn't even be having this conversation!
> 
> ACV stinks, is not proven to do anything, and can cause problems even death if given over extended periods of time!
> 
> This is more than what you are casually dismissing as a home remedy when you fail to give the proper disclaimers or show any bias to pet owners that can't afford proper medical care. There is no middle road, you must tell people to see their Vet! You can not diagnose problems over the internet and then offer homeotropic medicines in any manor and have a straight face! That is pure quackery!
> 
> As for Dr Margaret's second use for ACV she makes it clear "also can be applied topically to mucosa of cloaca (everted) to check for evidence of papillomas" Do you have any idea what she is saying? She is telling Dr's that during an evertia, everting the cloaca to apply a tiny amount of ACV (probably by use of a swab or other item) on the mucosa to check for problems as evidence of papillomas!!!!!!!"
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca
> 
> What she means is that the Doctor opens up the vent (cloaca) and extends it to apply the swab and see it FOAMS, I'm sure you are not recommending that pet owners do this practice? Then even if it does, it is not specific to the result intended as further testing might have a better indication as to the evidence of papillomas!
> 
> What you're doing is shooting a shot gun at the side of the barn, sure you might hit it but the result will always be challenged in a scientific community. ACV is not a cure all, it is not the silver bullet, and with other more reliable Rx's out there the use is totally dismissed!
> 
> The fact that ACV is acid will never be lost when counting up the amounts of acid being digested daily into our birds diet. Yes I too use a squeezed lemon on top of my fresh food given to my birds in a few drops mixed completely and it does allow the fresh food to stay that way longer. Yes I do give oranges and apples and other fruit with natural acid. But to compare this to ACV is to say that the fruit stays in the dishes for several months to a year in order for the Mother of Vinegar to develop and manifest itself to the amounts that occur in *(distilled) ACV.
> 
> This is like comparing apples to car oil filters! But keep up the work, lets see some science, again all I see is humanities! You don't have to worry about disappointing me.


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## Danielle

Jeez, that's really... I don't know. I know a lot of breeders have given ACV to their birds for decades without any ill side effects. I don't give it to them all the time, but if their poop looks off, I certainly add a few drops to their water.

I really don't think anyone doses the birds so badly that it harms them, do they? I don't know where the sense in these arguments ends and the paranoia begins. I don't believe I've EVER read about a food that doesn't have some kind of apparent negative side effect for birds. It seems like everything out there can kill them these days.


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## Renae

I was reading on a different forum that someone has been giving their parrots ACV every day for..5 years. :wacko: They've had no problems what so ever, and they said it's helped stopped her parrots from getting yeast infections which they got quite a lot.

This person is a nut job, period. They were trying to make it out as if it's something that's going to kill a bird, and I'm yet to see a bird die from it, well I haven't heard/seen anything about it killing a bird, so I don't know. Too right, these days it seems like you can't give them anything because it'll kill them. Nor have I heard/read about anu negative side effects, weird that.

All the birds get it 2 times a week and they're fine, but from what I first said above, about the person giving their birds ACV every day, I guess it's not as harmful as this other person's making out to be. I think every day is a bit much, but that's just my opinion.

ETA: Hmm. It's got me wondering though, why would this person give such a big amount of information to be proven wrong.. it just seems odd that in every post surely they wouldn't just make it up, or would they in order to prove their point and keep going? got my brain all haywired now. :lol:


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## atvchick95

yes Vinegar is acid. but it isn't pure acid, Its already diluted by 5% when you buy it from a grocery store ( i don't know about organic i dont use it) So then you add it to what. MORE water... there for it is diluted even more. 

All i know is it took a tumor/cyst away on my budgie, after using it daily for 3 weeks. and it didn't come back. 

So that is proof enough for me! I give it to all my birds 3xs a week ( I know a lot give it to them daily But for me 3xs a week is enough - IF it would be needed more then I'd do it) 

Since i have a lot of birds I don't measure it like some one would with 1 or even 4 birds 

I pour a bit into the bottom of a milk jug - roughly 8 -10 drops fill the milk jug with water put the lid on and shake it up very well. 

first thing i did the 1st time i did this was open it back up and sniff it - It barley smelled like vinegar ( I know if you use a glass of water and put a teaspoon/tablespoon of ACV in it it still stinks of vinegar) or even just a drop in one dish of water it still stinks 

No its not a cure, but if it helps and doesn't hurt - why not?

and with any home remedy a vet should be talked to/ seen first 

I've also read on different forums/web sites where a ton of vets recommend the use of AVC.... 

I have yet to hear a case of ACV killing a bird BUT I am sure if given to much it could 

but one to two drops per water container Isn't going to kill them (unless maybe some one is using 1oz of water to 2 drops of AVC of course.


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## srtiels

I really don't use ACV, so I can't really comment much to the postings above...except for thee thought of the person using it for 5 years....my thoughts are what happens when they go off it for several weeks. The information below result from research, talks with my vet, and visually watching necropsies to see precisely what damage can occur from 'Preventative Treatment' It is food for thought....
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Preventative Treatments

Before I go into detail I'd like to ask each person to ask himself or herself: ‘Why’ are you considering using products such as GSE, Nolvasan, etc. in the birds water? Was it because you heard about it from others? Or based on what you read? Or you want to use it simply as a preventative? _If as a preventative, ask yourself: “As a preventative against what?” How do you know a bird has a problem? And if you are simply assuming there is a problem, do you know what the problem is? Or even the cause?_

Indiscriminate usage of products as a preventative measure is only masking a problem, and forcing gradual changes within the body. What we are trying to prevent can in fact become more resistant and pathogenic. It is better and in the long run, more healthful for the bird to find the true cause of the problem and treat or correct it than to indiscriminately use preventatives that have a non-specific purpose. Anything that can act as a disinfectant or a cleaning agent should not be used internally in our birds!!
For everything we do there is a ‘cause and effect’ action. A bird has internal defense mechanisms that protect it against harmful or invading pathogens. These act as barriers to allow the immune system to respond and destroy the invader if it does get past these defenses. ANY factor, which includes: poor nutrition, trauma, improper use of antibiotics and disinfectants will damage this defense system and make a bird more susceptible to all types of infectious pathogens.

Within a bird are mucous membranes that line the gastrointestinal, respiratory, and urogential tracts. These mucous secreting cell/membranes act as a physical barrier preventing many organisms from entering the body. The interactions of normal microbial flora and the mucous membranes and these specific cells and their secretions also act to attack pathogenic bacteria before they can attach to the cells. When these beneficial bacteria and fungi are destroyed by careless use of disinfectants or unnecessary antimicrobal agents the normal flora can also be destroyed. The normal bacteria found in the digestive tract plays an important role in preventing viral, bacterial, and fungal infections. These are non-pathogenic and compete for nutrients, and inhibit organisms from reaching the lining of the GI tract. They also secrete compounds that prevent other bacteria, fungi, and some viruses from gaining access to the cells that line the gastrointestinal tract. Thus, the indiscriminant use of using agents/products that also act as disinfectants internally can overtime destroy or weaken the body's immune responses. The body is daily replacing these cells, but when indiscriminate use of a disinfectant agent is used this is also effecting the replacement of this mucous/cell barrier.

NOTE: The book: AVIAN VIRUSES, Function and Control by Branson Ritchie, DVM, PhD goes into detail on Avian defense mechanisms.

Have you ever wondered what happens when we use water treatments that can also act as disinfectants? The above information briefly explained some internal changes that are going on, but what else happens? A disinfectants purpose is to kill or in diluted form reduce pathogens/bacteria. Many of the pathogens/bacteria that are listed that these products are effective against are also normal bacterial residents of our body that work in harmony with each other. They are rarely harmful unless something creates an unbalance of one pathogen and an overgrowth of another. Over extended time these products, such as GSE, Nolvasan, and working and keeping the bird from yeast or bacterial problems, but what is happening in the body is that these normal bacteria are learning how to adapt to these products that is seen as an invader to their environment, thus are becoming more resilient to survive. In other words they are mutating into a stronger and more resistant form of bacteria. Therefore, later on when a bird becomes ill the bacteria involved in the illness may have developed a resistance to an antibiotic it otherwise would have been sensitive to.

My point being that many products sound great, and innocent, but if it is a product that has the capacity to kill bacteria and yeast it can do as much damage to the body over a period of time as extended or indiscriminate usage of antibiotics. Many times extended use contributes to a resistance to normal treatments, and a stronger more pathogenic form of bacteria in the body.

In summary, the above is food for thought, and I encourage you to do some researching on your own. Don’t go by simply word of mouth because someone says they found the solution to their yeast (or bacteria or whatever) problems. If they are using a product as a preventative, they have NOT discovered the source of the problem, they have only put a ‘band-aid’ over the problem. Meaning they still do not know the cause and once the preventative treatments are stopped the problem is right back again. Many times the source of the problem is something simple that can easily be corrected without use of preventative or medicinal treatments. It could be diet or some type of stress in the environment, to name a few things. Try to do a ‘rule out’ of potential causes before you blindly treat. If you are unsure of the cause discuss it with your vet or another breeder. Have some gram stains or cultures done to find out if there truly is a need for treatment. And most importantly, find out exactly what the problem is and the proper course of treatment…if needed.

© 2002 Susanne Russo, all rights reserved
_**Permission given to cross-post**_


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## Renae

So what she's pretty much saying is.. before you try fix it, work out what the cause is, right? ACV shouldn't be used for long periods at a time?

Thanks for posting that, it was a really interesting read and I'll remember that.


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## srtiels

Yes...thats the point I was trying to get across when I researched and wrote it.


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## tielfan

I haven't seriously looked into the ACV issue but it's not hard to figure out that the more enthusiastic claims are way overblown. But on the other hand it has a long-term reputation for providing benefits, and should be harmless enough or even beneficial when used in moderation. I put a couple of drops in my birds' water once a week. The water is pretty alkaline where I live so I figure it's not bad to go for a different pH every now and then.

Some of the recommendations look dangerous though. 1 to 2 tablespoons in 8 ounces of water, as one guy recommended above? Ye gods! One tablespoon per gallon is more commonly recommended and sounds a lot more reasonable. 

ACV can't really be compared to GSE and Nolvasan. GSE indiscriminately kills all the bacteria in the gut like an antibiotic, and Nolvasan does the same (I think - could be wrong). ACV only kills some bacteria and supposedly promotes a healthy intestinal system. 

Here's a balanced-looking article about the effects of ACV on humans: http://www.webmd.com/diet/apple-cider-vinegar


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## Renae

You learn something new everyday.  I'm going to read through that article now!


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## atvchick95

> 1 to 2 tablespoons in 8 ounces of water, as one guy recommended above?


that is the amount for a human to drink - do it daily to lose weight 

that might of been what he meant. and not for birds.


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## tielfan

> that is the amount for a human to drink - do it daily to lose weight


Yuck. Sounds pretty disgusting. Maybe it works by making you too sick to eat! 

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to give ACV to birds every day even at much lower concentrations. Moderation in all things! But a tiny amount once or twice a week probably isn't going to do any harm and might even do some good.


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## atvchick95

i love vinegar (eat it on my fries a lot) but drinking it - i couldn't hack it... my mom did it for several months and lost weight though 

but I'll pass.... The smell was enough to knock me back a few steps lol


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## Danielle

My mum swears by drinking ACV to lose weight, which is why we always have plenty in stock here!

I forgot that I add a couple of drops (watered down) to leafy greens to help stop bacteria growth.

I think that unless something is outright toxic or bad (like fatty foods or lactose), small portions of just about anything should be okay, as long as the amount is small and not too frequent. This is just like the parsley debate - at first parsley is fantastic with all these great positive attributes, and then people are saying you have to give it in such moderate amounts, or not at all.

If you give everything in moderation, it's very unlikely to harm your birds... that's what I've come to understand from all these debates.

As acidic as it is, a few drops in a bowl of water a couple of times a week isn't going to turn into something lethal, really, is it?


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## tielfan

> This is just like the parsley debate - at first parsley is fantastic with all these great positive attributes, and then people are saying you have to give it in such moderate amounts, or not at all.


During the infamous parsley debate we never touched the subject of whether parsley actually provides all the benefits that were being claimed for it. There was already enough trouble just talking about the one known problem (high oxalate level)! But the original parsley information sounded like it came from one of those gung-ho nutrition sites that rave about the benefits of various foods. Unfortunately, a lot of times the claims being made on these sites haven't actually been proven and some items may be exaggerated or downright wrong. It's wise to take really enthusiastic claims with a grain of salt, and if it's important to you to know what's true and what isn't then you need to do more research. Any green food plant is bound to have some nutritional benefits, but maybe not as many as some people say.

ACV is not a green plant so its benefits are even harder for an ordinary person to judge. But is does contain some nutrients and appears to be OK in moderation.


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## Renae

I look at it as.. don’t trust anything unless you’ve got true facts, or you’ve asked a Vet.


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## sweetrsue

I wash their greens with a weak acv solution but I don't put it in their drinking water. They stay fresh longer. Use too much and it has the opposite effect. You can kill weeds with vinegar!


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