# Sunny's Med Tests-FULL Results Here!



## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

(For the prologue to Sunny's trips to the vet saga, please see my previous threads "Black Stools/Vomiting" (April 27) and "Baytril Prescribed to Sunny" (April 29). 

Hello and thank you to all who took the time to provide support and detailed advice over the week-end while Sunny was in and out of the vet clinic doing half a dozen tests  and while my finances were going down the drain  For what I paid (approx $1000 Cdn),  I gotta make it worth my while by sharing ALL of it with my follow tiel brothers and sisters here so all you experts can comment on the results and give me your feedback on what else I should be doing.  

*Blood Test*

Below is the blood test. The vet said that the low protein is actually normal and okay for cockatiels based on his consultation with another specialist. Is this true? Also, I am concerned about the high sodium and chloride levels and asked 3 vets what caused it and what I could do about it but no one was able to give me an answer. (I don't understand any of the blood terms in the second half at all since I'm not a doctor or vet.)

Comprehensive Avian Chemistries
Total Protein: 27 (LOW); Range: 30-55 (g/L)
Albumin(protein): 10 (LOW); Range: 12-32 (g/L)
Globulin(protein): 17 (LOW); Range: 20-40 (g/L)
AST (SGOT): 205; Range: 20-350 (U/L)
Phosphorus: 0.99; Range: 0.97-1.78 (mmol/L)
Glucose: 19.2; Range: 10.0-19.4 (mmol/L)
Calcium: 2.32; Range: 1.90-3.00 (mmol/L)
Sodium: 177 (HIGH); Range: 140-160 (mmol/L)
Potassium: 3.7; Range: 3.0-4.5 (mmol/L)
Chloride: 132 (HIGH); Range: 90-110 (mmol/L)
Cholesterol: 8.04; Range 1.29-9.05 (mmol/L)
CPK: 6 (LOW); Range: 50-400 (U/L)
Uric Acid: 286; Range: 118-589 (umol/L)

Avian/Exotic CBC
White Blood Cell Estimate: 13.4 (HIGH); Range: 4.0-10.0 (10e/L)
Hematocrit: 52; Range: 42-55 %
Blood Parasites: Negative
Het/Poly: 62; Range: 45-80 %
Absolute Het/Poly: 8.31
Differential: Absolute 
Lymphocytes: 4.82
Monocytes: 1; Range: 0-3 %
Absolute Monocytes: 0.13
Eosinophils: 0; Range: 0-2 %
Absolute Eosinophils: 0.00
Basophils: 1; Range: 0-1 %
Absolute Basophils: 0.13
Azurophilic Monocytes: 0
Absolute Azurophilic Monocytes: 0.00
Morphology: Normal

*Cytology*
Below is the cytology report showing bacteria and yeast overgrowth.

Source: fecal smear, 2 slides examined.

Microscopic Description: The smears consist of amorphous debris, extracellular bacteria (rods) and scattered yeast organisms.

Microscopic Findings: Suggestive of bacterial overgrowth with scattered yeasts organisms. See comment.

Comment: The uniform presence of rods is suggestive of a bacterial overgrowth. There may be a primary bacterial colitis or the overgrowth may be due to other underlying disease (upset in bacterial flora). Correlate with clinical impression. The yeasts do not represent any known pathogenic organisms and may represent resident flora or yeast overgrowth.

*X-Rays*

Here are 2 x-ray scans of Sunny from the side and from the front.  What I have circled in red is what is in her vent area (did I get the term correct?). The first vet said it was something to be concerned about and asked if I gave Sunny grit (which I never did but I think she swallows bits of the lava rock beak conditioner in her cage). The second vet said this morning it was NOT a matter of concern at all. 

Side









Front









*Diagnosis*
For $1000, the diagnosis is that Sunny has bacteria and yeast overgrowth. :blink: (I think next time I will just consult my crystal ball, tarot cards or the I-Ching.) 

*Treatment*
She's on a daily dosage of 0.2ml of Baytril and has organic apple cider added to her drinking water at 0.5ml for every 100ml of water. She's on Harrison's high potency coarse. I'm trying to get her to eat yogurt with active cultures but hasn't been successful. 

*Current Situation:*
Sunny is 100% herself. Her poop is almost normal. The only criticism I have is that it is still a TAD wet and I see small bubbles. She's eating, drinking, hopping around....everything is 100% pure Sunny. :yes:

Just to end on a positive note, the vet said that her weight is ideal, her muscles around her tummy are perfect and her bones as per the x-ray are very healthy. So I guess I must be doing SOMETHING right. :thumbu:

Any comments or suggestions you feel may help Sunny to bring this under control/prevent this from happening again, they'd be greatly appreciated! 

Thank you again for all those who stuck by me and Sunny and sent us your positive thoughts. :flowers:


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think sodium and chloride levels in humans can get out of whack from vomiting or other GI upset. Maybe dehydration, even? I think those levels are pretty easy to correct when the animal goes back to eating normally. It may be that the episode of vomitting/dark poops Sunny had caused some of her electrolyte levels to be out of whack since she wasn't absorbing nutrients properly. Keep in mind, this is only conjecture based on what I know about human medicine. But I don't really see why a bird's metabolism should be so very different.

I'm so glad she's feeling better! I know that must have been so scary for you. I was thinking about her all weekend.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

In looking at the position off the objects you have circled it is not in the proventriculus (gizzard) area, it is lower in the GI tract. It *could be the lava rock particles*....but you also would have noticed some occasionally in her poop. Since they are there now, you might want to carefully monitor her droppings. The other thought when looking at the circle was a calcified broken egg, but it is up to high. I'm not sure what is going on. Did you ask the vet about if it could be metal particles, since the poop was off and looked bloody recently? Otherwise I am not sure what it is.

That is great that she is feeling better


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I have nothing to offer from the medical perspective but just wanted to say I have also been thinking of Sunny and I'm glad she is doing better! (((hugs)))


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## SuzieQueue (Mar 12, 2012)

so glad she is doing better, also cant offer any more than hugs and support for u  xoxo


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks enigma, srtiels, JaimeS and SuzieQueue for your kindness and concern for Sunny.  Sunny's poop is pretty normal at this point and I am no longer concerned. My plan is to keep her on the water with apple cider vinegar for a little while, and afterwards I will probably do it every other 2-3 days only, just to keep the bacteria and yeast in check. I have always known about this apple cider vinegar in water thing but as you know, there's so much debate around it that I never did it because my theory is "if something ain't broken then don't fix it". (and yes, I have read the stickied thread on this forum about the whole bitter vinegar debate. ) Some people say it will disrupt the bird's PH level so I figured I didn't want to mess with that.

If you are ever in Toronto, please come visit me and Sunny. :yes:


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad she is feeling better. I don't know what to say about the blood work but as for occasional bubbles in her droppings, my Sunny had those and after an infection, etc. was ruled out my vet thought it was because his bacteria level was off (in his case he didn't have any throat bacteria- good or bad). He put my Sunny on probiotics and that seemed to take care of the problem. I can't get my Sunny to eat yogurt either but if you can, that might help with the bubbles. Is there a reason he just didn't give you probiotics?


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

srtiels said:


> In looking at the position off the objects you have circled it is not in the proventriculus (gizzard) area, it is lower in the GI tract. It *could be the lava rock particles*....but you also would have noticed some occasionally in her poop. Since they are there now, you might want to carefully monitor her droppings. The other thought when looking at the circle was a calcified broken egg, but it is up to high. I'm not sure what is going on. Did you ask the vet about if it could be metal particles, since the poop was off and looked bloody recently? Otherwise I am not sure what it is.
> 
> That is great that she is feeling better


I'm still very puzzled as to whether or not it could be the lava rock particles. I never noticed it until this whole drama started and I realized I NEVER saw any lava rock particles on the floor when I'm sweeping (and Sunny picks at it quite frequently) so this is a sign to me that she is probably swallowing them. I was watching her like a hawk last night when she was picking at it and I didn't see any particles falling out of her beak so again, it looks like she swallows them. However, I have also NEVER seen those particles in her poop.  The vet also confirmed yesterday morning that it could not have been a calcified broken egg because the position isn't right. In the end he just said it's nothing to be concerned about. 

I am continuing to monitor her droppings closely (every time she poops I run over like a lunatic to get my face in it to examine it---I'm sure Sunny thinks mommy is nuts :blush. The colour of her poop has been back to normal long ago so I'm not concerned at this time. 

Another thought on the mysterious particles: Sunny used to pick at the same hole in the wall of the livingroom which has been patched up about 2 months ago. She was consistently working on that hole for 2 years.  Could they have been the bits of concrete that are apparently still inside her body after all this time or would that not be possible? She hasn't been picking at any wall for at least 2 months now ever since that hole was patched up. (She was watching my BF patch it from afar and now she won't go to his shoulder again because he destroyed her 2 years of consistent hard work.:rofl


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

sunnysmom said:


> I'm glad she is feeling better. I don't know what to say about the blood work but as for occasional bubbles in her droppings, my Sunny had those and after an infection, etc. was ruled out my vet thought it was because his bacteria level was off (in his case he didn't have any throat bacteria- good or bad). He put my Sunny on probiotics and that seemed to take care of the problem. I can't get my Sunny to eat yogurt either but if you can, that might help with the bubbles. Is there a reason he just didn't give you probiotics?


Yeah, the reason is the vet is an idiot and doesn't really know how to treat birds but won't admit it after the got my $1000 . Well right now Sunny is on Baytril and I am sure the clinic will call me a few days later to find out how Sunny's doing. If not then on Friday I will call the new clinic I found to take Sunny to next time she needs to see a vet (I spoke with a REAL vet at the new clinic yesterday who looked at the test results and confirmed Sunny's condition is stable) and ask for their advice if I should keep administering the Baytril or what.


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

Annie said:


> I'm still very puzzled as to whether or not it could be the lava rock particles. I never noticed it until this whole drama started and I realized I NEVER saw any lava rock particles on the floor when I'm sweeping (and Sunny picks at it quite frequently) so this is a sign to me that she is probably swallowing them. I was watching her like a hawk last night when she was picking at it and I didn't see any particles falling out of her beak so again, it looks like she swallows them. However, I have also NEVER seen those particles in her poop.  The vet also confirmed yesterday morning that it could not have been a calcified broken egg because the position isn't right. In the end he just said it's nothing to be concerned about.
> 
> I am continuing to monitor her droppings closely (every time she poops I run over like a lunatic to get my face in it to examine it---I'm sure Sunny thinks mommy is nuts :blush. The colour of her poop has been back to normal long ago so I'm not concerned at this time.
> 
> Another thought on the mysterious particles: Sunny used to pick at the same hole in the wall of the livingroom which has been patched up about 2 months ago. She was consistently working on that hole for 2 years.  Could they have been the bits of concrete that are apparently still inside her body after all this time or would that not be possible? She hasn't been picking at any wall for at least 2 months now ever since that hole was patched up. (She was watching my BF patch it from afar and now she won't go to his shoulder again because he destroyed her 2 years of consistent hard work.:rofl


I'm glad that Sunny is doing better 
If Sunny really is eating the lava rock, and she's not pooping it out, I would worry about it causing a blockage in her GI tract. I would remove the lava rock and maybe find a beak conditioner that is safe to eat (can be digested or passed through easily). A cuttlebone would work just as well I think, and as far as I know it's safe. I think it's better to be safe than sorry. I've heard of birds that ingest something inedible over long periods of time before it is ever noticed, and it ends up in a GI block, which requires surgery to remove. And manufacturers who make these lava rock things for birds don't necessarily ensure that it's safe to be ingested because it's made for a different purpose, yet some birds may still swallow it. I find that there's a lot of things sold in pet shops that aren't safe for our birds (eg. grit for cockatiels, toys that birds can easily get tangled in, etc.), we have to be the judge of what's safe.


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

RedQueen said:


> I'm glad that Sunny is doing better
> If Sunny really is eating the lava rock, and she's not pooping it out, I would worry about it causing a blockage in her GI tract. I would remove the lava rock and maybe find a beak conditioner that is safe to eat (can be digested or passed through easily). A cuttlebone would work just as well I think, and as far as I know it's safe. I think it's better to be safe than sorry. I've heard of birds that ingest something inedible over long periods of time before it is ever noticed, and it ends up in a GI block, which requires surgery to remove. And manufacturers who make these lava rock things for birds don't necessarily ensure that it's safe to be ingested because it's made for a different purpose, yet some birds may still swallow it. I find that there's a lot of things sold in pet shops that aren't safe for our birds (eg. grit for cockatiels, toys that birds can easily get tangled in, etc.), we have to be the judge of what's safe.


I did ask the vet yesterday morning and he assured me that it was perfectly okay if Sunny ingests the lava rock particles. However, you are right. I'd rather be safe than sorry. I will remove it immediately and try to get a second opinion on this from another vet. I will faint if Sunny ever needs surgery.  (Actually I won't know from which I would faint first---knowing she needs surgery or seeing the cost estimate for the surgery! :wacko


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Hey, just wanted to confirm that I was right about the electrolyte levels being a result of dehydration. My Sunny had the same thing on his blood panel from yesterday, and the vet told me that it's common in birds because they get stress polyuria from being at the office, and then end up with high sodium and chloride levels temporarily.


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

enigma731 said:


> Hey, just wanted to confirm that I was right about the electrolyte levels being a result of dehydration. My Sunny had the same thing on his blood panel from yesterday, and the vet told me that it's common in birds because they get stress polyuria from being at the office, and then end up with high sodium and chloride levels temporarily.


Great. Thanks. I'm amazed and upset that out of the THREE vets at that clinic who were all involved in treating Sunny (actually FOUR) who all saw the results, not one of them was able to tell me this???? :blink: Well of course they wouldn't. How else would I have panicked and spent another $500 for further tests the next day if they had told me it was a temporary phenomenon and not to be worried about?  Well guess what, I WILL throw this back at the vet. Not now, but I will wait until they call me again (which they will---they have been consistently calling to find out if Sunny is still alive because they don't know what they are doing and want to make sure they haven't killed her ). I will tell them that this was what I heard from someone on this forum who heard it from her vet and I'm surprised neither three of them could answer that, just so they know I have other sources too and to bust them that they don't know anything. Thanks for telling me.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> I will tell them that this was what I heard from someone on this forum who heard it from her vet and I'm surprised neither three of them could answer that, just so they know I have other sources too and to bust them that they don't know anything. Thanks for telling me.


You get 'em!!! So glad Sunny is doing better!


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