# Determining gender of juvenile birds



## kfelton0002 (Mar 12, 2010)

Based on the pictures I have seen on srtiels' website regarding the use of wing spots to identify gender, my quad of gray babies are male. Their wings have spots on the primary flight feathers and the secondaries are solid gray from the center of the wing (about the bend) to where they meet the body. Is it a pretty accurate assumption that my birds are indeed male if the spots do not exist any further than the outermost half? 

Also, when do young male birds begin to display their male characteristics and behaviors? My older two are 4 weeks old today, and the other two are 26 days and 24 days. 

One more question, can you use this technique to identify gender of other mutations such as normal whiteface birds? I would think that it would apply since the whiteface mutation is similar to the normal gray coloration with the exception of the facial feathers.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Ok...wiuth the wing spot sexing the feathers closest to the body should be totally 100% solid. If there are a few that even have 1 faded spot this could be either sex. The wing spots sexing works best on most solid mutations. With pearls both sexes look the same. With pieds the males will have solid feathers close to the body and the females will have dots.


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## Karine (May 28, 2010)

Can you see that as early as 4 weeks old?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Karine, Yes. 

Also when the little males are 8-12 weeks old they will start to vocalize. At first it is a strangled sounding sqeek.


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## Berdnerd (May 20, 2010)

Is there a link to the page that discusses wing spots? I looked around on srtiels fantastic website and couldn't find it...


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## kfelton0002 (Mar 12, 2010)

Here are the pics from srtiels' photobucket that show the difference between a young male and a young female's wing spots for determining gender.


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## Mystified (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks for the pics. They were a big help. This makes me believe that mine is a boy. He wouldn't let me look too long but I didn't see any yellow on the inner feathers. Also, when he is out of his cage and sitting on my shoulder, he never stops "talking". He is constantly making sounds.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Shown below is the wing of a pied. In determing the sex *when young, and prior to their first molt* look at the dark feathers only closest to the body. With a pied the flight feathers that are yellow will be clear...meaning no dots or spots. It is the dark feathers that help to get an idea of sex.


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## Berdnerd (May 20, 2010)

Very interesting! I'm still going to get my babies DNA sexed, but I'll check their feathers too


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## liltweets (Oct 31, 2008)

This method didn't work with Piglet.   I thought for sure, by the wing spots, she was a male. It wouldn't have mattered though, she took to me right away. She picked me after I had picked her out as "mine" from pictures before I met her. She jumped out of the cage and clung to me. Like she knew I was coming to take her home.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I thought for sure, by the wing spots, she was a male
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If she had already started a molt them she would have lost the dots closest to the body.


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## kfelton0002 (Mar 12, 2010)

I looked at them again tonight at work and my gray babies are definitely all male according to their wing spots. 

Also, I had a concern. My older babies are starting to eat less at each feeding. They will still eat, but are only eating around 5-6 cc's before acting full. Is this normal? They will be on a three x per day feeding for another 4 days or so. They are really interested in solid foods and seem to be eating pretty good. This morning the two oldest (29 days old) weighed 95 and 93 grams. The middle one (27 days old) weighed 102 grams, and the youngest (25 days old) weighed 100 grams. I am a bit concerned about the second oldest baby (the one that weighed 93 grams), because in the past few days he has actually lost 2 grams. Is this normal? He is the one that gets "full" the fastest. I almost have to force him to take in 5-6 cc's because he seems satisfied after the first cc or so. He also is the least active of the bunch. Is it a possibility that he could be ill or have an intestinal parasite or a protazoan infection. His droppings appear normal and he appears to have no visible signs of illness other than the decreased appetite and slight weight loss. I know that babies will slim down during their fledging period, but my babies haven't even attempted to fledge or fly yet. He doesn't hold his crest in the alert position like the others do either. I don't know if that is significant or not. He does from time to time, but his siblings pretty much keep their crests erect all the time. I'm just a worry wart I guess! lol


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## Jenny10 (Feb 27, 2010)

Reading in my hand rearing book they usually reach peak weight around that age and will stop gaining and even may record a loss in weight and is due to the birds body getting rid of excess fat so they are lighter preparing for their first flight.

Going back to the sexing I got lucky with Tira (pearl) being a girl, because I used this method when I first got her and thought the bars of colour that went the whole length of the wings told me she was female, lol but this is what I read on a different internet site and this was what the breeder was doing and they said it worked out pretty accurate with pearls as well.

Can I ask on the pieds, would you only ever see the spots close to the body or can you get spots on the primary flights too?


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## kfelton0002 (Mar 12, 2010)

If there are spots on the primary flights and not the secondary feathers (closest to the body, from the bend of the wing to where it meets the bird's body) then the bird is male unless it is old enough to have molted in its adult feathers, in that case it would be a female. In pied birds that have white in their wings and some solid feathers just look at the solid feathers to make a determination of gender. If there are solid gray feathers close to the body when the bird is young then it is more than likely a male. If the feathers are spotted then it is female. Also if you have an older pied bird and it has solid gray feathers in its primaries then it is more than likely a male. Any wing or tail barring once a bird is mature is a good indicator that the bird is female.

Oh and congrats on your egg btw!! I just read your post a second ago!! *Fingers crossed it's fertile!*


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Also if you have an older pied bird and it has solid gray feathers in its primaries then it is more than likely a male*
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True...A pied hen will also molt in the solid feathers closer to the body, but the primarys will have the dots , if dark feathers later on, just like the normal or solid color hens do.


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## Berdnerd (May 20, 2010)

I know this thread is almost a month old, but I wanted to update it! My baby Phoenix is 26 days old today and is very well feathered. I took a look under his wing and found that his feathers look exactly like the female feathers! The last 2 or so feathers right before the wing pit are just gray, but the others look just like the picture. How accurate is this sexing method? I'm going to get Phoenix DNA sexed too, but it's fun to speculate on his gender. It will take me a bit of time to get used to calling him a HER! My fiance and friend keep joking that I have to change the name to Phoenicia (pronounced like Felicia with a n instead of a c) if she's a girl but the name will remain Phoenix regardless!

For the DNA sexing I need to get a small blood sample- a couple drops of blood from a cut too short toe nail. Considering how long and needle like his nails are, I want to clip them very soon. Is it safe at this point for me to clip one nail a little short to get the blood sample? He is 26 days old and 62 grams since he's recovering from being sick.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...those 2 solid feathers close to the body can be an imndication of either sex.

For sexing you can phone Avian Bio-Tech 1-800-514-9672 and ask for a feather sexing kit, which they'll send it and instructions and a form to fill out. The cost is $24.50 check or Charge Card. Results are within 2 days of when they receive them in the mail. I prefer the feather sexing over blood sexing.

OK...as to long nails on a young bird, what I do is just nip off the sharp tips to blunt them.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I'm going to get Phoenix DNA sexed too, but it's fun to speculate on his gender. It will take me a bit of time to get used to calling him a HER! My fiance and friend keep joking that I have to change the name to Phoenicia


I live in Tucson Arizona. Our name for people who live in Phoenix is "Phoenicians".


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