# My baby has a boo boo



## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

This little one has a boo boo. What could of happened?


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

Probably just rubbed it against something. or maybe mom or dad accidentally preened a bit to hard?


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Do they preen them when they have no feathers?


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## WendyBeoBuddy (Dec 12, 2011)

They actually do preen the down feathers to make sure it keeps the babies warm  i have seen cockatiels do it and my finches do it to our nice fluffy babies!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If the parents panicked in the box they may have nicked it with their toenails in the rush to get out of the box.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The toenail explanation sounds right to me.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

As to the injury it will heal with a couple days and be gone.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Today she has 2 new boo boos They are not large but it has drawn blood again. Nobody would be picking on her would they? Is this normal?
Shes 10 days today.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Look at the marks. If in a line then it is a scratch from a toenail. If curved it could be bite marks.

Sometimes a parent will bite a baby to stimulate it to cry if if is not begging for food when they go to feed it. If the baby is full the parents should not do this. Biting can also result from frustrated or stressed parents, and possibly this could lead to plucking of the pinfeathers. Keep an eye on them.

If the marks are toenail scratches then it could be something spooking the parents while in the box causing them to trample on the babies.

so first figure out the type of injuries....


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

I will look again when they come out of the box. It seemed to be on each wing. The parents do not seem stressed and i cant think when they could of been spooked, they are in a quiet room and im only checking the box when they are out. I will post a picture in a bit.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

If they were trampling them then i wonder why the same baby got hurt twice, just coinsidence? Maybe shes not feeding well and they are biting her then. I will look at the shape of it.
Many thanks


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

I cant really tell what shape they are cos it is just small blotches of dried blood. Its on both sides by the wing area.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Ive just checked again and noticed spots of blood by the pin feathers so im presuming being plucked? What do i do now? If i remove her will dad start on someone else? Is it safe to leave her in there.
Im off to weigh her , she has an empty crop.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes....it appear to be plucking. What this means is that your pair might surprise you with a new egg in the nest soon.

Just in case top dress the bedding with fresh bedding.

Do you have any background on the parents....such as have either bred before? The reason why I am asking is if they bred for someone else and the prior breeder pulkled babies at 10 days or so of age this pair would expect you to do the same thing. Handfeeding so young is tedious and chances of crop problems are increased because their immune system has not had a chance to build.

What I have done is leave the babies in the box if the plucking is not extreme. If you don't want to do that plan B would be pulling to handfeed.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

As to who is plucking....it could be either or both parents.

In some instances plucking could be a nutritional need for salt which is in the blood. What I have done is lightly toasted a piece of bread and buttered it, and gave to the parents. This gave them something to feed the babies and also satisfied the need for salt.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Oh no not another egg!!! I havent seen them mating again.
srtiels this is a very sad story, i wrote about them on the forum back in march. They were aviary birds (30 of them) left at a rental house and my daughters friend moved in the house and they hadnt a clue about birds. Dirty, eating wildbird seed,and no protection from elements. By the time i heard about it i took them (they were the only 2 left  ) They were in a nestbox with 5 eggs and dead birds. I boiled those eggs because of contamination. They have come a long way and as much as i tried couldnt prevent this clutch.
If at all possible i would rather not handfeed, it worries me and im inexperienced, i guess i will leave it a day or so and see. So i would have to pull all of them? If we get more eggs then what happens to the babies?
The last few days mom has been eating the cuttlebone like crazy....oh no


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

When dad popped his head out of the nestbox i swear i saw some baby fluff on his beak !


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You are between a rock and a hard place. Usually it is the males that are better feeders than the females. If you remove him you will have to assist feed the babies. 

Given their background it is very possible that the pulling of babies was done early and parents are frustrated because things are not what they are used to.....and not sure what to do. Normally if any parents pluck it is when they are feathered and close to fledgling (thats when the want to hop out of the nest for short perieds) to encourage them out of the nest.

Give it a few more days. if the plucking is minimal then they will be fine. If the plucking parent gets abusive then it would be time to pull the plucked one.

Till them help assist fed as much as you can to relieve any stress they feel from feeding so many little one.

On the plus side I have always left babies in the nest that were plucked if it was not abusive. it was the only way I found that stopped this practice with later clutches because they did not learn that if they did this the babies would go. Tiels are smart and learn what works for them from what we do.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Thank you so much, you have been so helpful ! We just noticed a small bloodspot on baby number 2. Im going to leave them for now and see what happens. What will happen if she does lay more eggs when these babies are so small, will they still feed them?
I think we could manage one baby but i feel they will start to pluck the others if one is removed and 4 of them being so young would be hard.
Ive put some nice toast and butter in so maybe that will help.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Is she lays eggs make sure if the babies are in there to keep the top layer of bedding fresh. I have had many pairs lay a new clutch when there was still babies in the box with no problem. The parents would have the babies keep the eggs warm which gave them more out time from the box. By the time the eggs were due to hatch you have 2 options pull all the babies for handfeeding, or just pull 1 or 2 and let the smallest ones stay in the nest. They can be taken out daily to hand tame. The parents will recruit them to help feed the new babies. They will also fledge from the box and they will be completely parent weaned by the time the new clutch is 3 weeks old. it looks strange to see a baby feeding a hatchling. I would do this with the birds that I wanted to save back as future breeders. by the time they are breeding age they have had expereince taking care of eggs and babies.

There are so many options. Do what works best for you


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> In some instances plucking could be a nutritional need for salt


This is a long shot but it's worth trying. This year Shodu started plucking the babies earlier than usual, and stopped plucking when I let her have all the red chard she could eat - she had quite a craving for it. She did start plucking again when the babies were three weeks old, which was related to the desire for a new clutch. But the earlier plucking was apparently nutrition related, and chard was the answer. I don't know what's so special about it but nothing else would satisfy her. When I walked in the room she would almost attack me looking to see if I was bringing chard, and she looked disappointed if I didn't have it.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Thank you Tielfan. I will go and buy some and see. They have a variety of veggies, Romaine,spring mix, greens,Kale,wholegrain bread and they are eating oatmeal and scrambled eggs with their seed and pellets. Im just soaking some mung beans to sprout. Yesterday i gave them buttered toast. I will try anything right now.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Here is the nutrient content of swiss chard: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

It contains sodium (salt) which I have found that it is this that alleviated my pairs from plucking from the buttered toast.

Here is some info on salt have have from past postings.
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SALT

I had researched sodium (Salt) in regards to pairs that kill or mutilate or pluck babies, and had found that many times the cause is a salt/sodium deficiency.

This is also true of many birds that die of egg binding. Salt/sodium aids in the muscle contractions. When there is a deficiency there can be a loss of muscle tone to expel the egg. 

Salt/sodium is also beneficial in birds with digestive disorders, such as passing whole seeds. It is necessary for the production of hydrochloric acid in the proventriculus, and also the muscle tone in the gizzard for grinding foods.

Very lightly salted rice water helps to halt additional dehydration when a bird has diarrhea. It helps to maintain the osmotic pressure in the body, thus protecting against excessive fluid losses. 

Diarrhea can cause sodium depletion. Which is then followed by rapid weight loss due to dehydration. From what I've learned it is not the salt itself that is the problem, but the depletion in the body from certain illnesses, such as renal/kidney problems.
　
In the early years (had a lot less birds) when my birds craved salt I gave them bread or toast that has margarine spread on it. The margarine has salt, but it also contains *lecithin* as a binder/thickener. The lecithin also contains minute amounts of choline, inositol, and linoleic acid which aid the birds system. Lecithin also works against obesity by emulsifying fat build-ups.

Sometimes when that bird is craving for a certain food at a certain time...give in. For example a hen instinctively knows she needs that additional salt/sodium for proper muscle contractions to safely pass her egg.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Unfortunately your link didn't work for me, but I found a website at http://www.healthalternatives2000.com/vegetables-nutrition-chart.html that lists the sodium content of many vegetables including chard. The chard does have a very high sodium content - about two and a half times as much as celery which is considered to be a high sodium vegetable. So maybe that's what she was after. Although the parent birds eat tons of pellets while they're breeding (mostly regurged to the babies) and those contain sodium, so I'm surprised if she didn't get enough from that source. 

When I was researching chard earlier trying to figure out why she wanted it, I didn't see anything about the sodium content. But I did discover that chard contains betalain, a color pigment and phytonutrient which is beneficial but isn't found in very many foods. So I thought that perhaps this was the reason she wanted it.

I was hesitant to let her eat too much chard because it has a high level of oxalate. Other than margarine on bread, is there anything else that you particularly recommend as a source of sodium?


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

I tried to get chard but couldnt find it in our stores, might venture out further tomorrow.
Im posting a couple of photos of the two older ones, poor things. I was worried the older one wasnt being fed but just checked and she has now got a lovely full crop!
Number three is Fuzzy that had a lovely fluffy head, as you can see someone pulled it out 
Im leaving them as long as i can stand it but getting prepared....


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

They look great, and the parents are doing a good job (aside from the plucking) As to the one which you said had a fuzzy head, the down will start to fall off as pin feathers start to grow.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Oh you really think they look great? I must be such a worrywart then, when i look at other photos with feathers coming in and mine has little blood spots and missing pins i feel bad. I think at this time the parents could do a better job at feeding than i can so im holding off. Maybe the toast and butter will kick in!!
I must say that mom is starting to fill out, i thought she looked a bit plump today, please pray for no more eggs!!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

From the looks of them the parents are doing great with them.

If this is their first clutch they may be a little overwhelmed with feeding 4 babies, so assist feeding will reduce some of the stress from them trying to always keep them full.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

I think the toast and butter and chard are working !!!! Yesterday and today no feathers plucked !! They are looking so much better. Thank you!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Years ago I learned about the sodium/salt deficiency being a cause for plucking babies. When I rested pairs I kept one of those brown rodent/hamster salt with mineral spools in all my flights for the birds to have access to. This way when they were set up their bodies were not deficient, and interestingly all plucking ceased.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I kept one of those brown rodent/hamster salt with mineral spools in all my flights for the birds to have access to.


Would that be similar to these products on the Petsmart website?

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11147415&lmdn=SHOP+FOR









http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11147316&lmdn=SHOP+FOR


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Tielfan...Yes, the top one.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Well i hope it keeps working !! That is so interesting about the salt, i guess some birds need it more than others.
Now if i could just find something to lower to sex drive. Mom spends a lot of the time when shes out with her tail in the air, slouched on her perch calling for him. Luckily he just carries on eating and goes past her to the nestbox to feed babies. He is totally ignoring it all lol


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Hormone control is extra tricky when you have a clutch in the nest. You don't want to reduce the hormone levels so much that the parents stop taking care of the babies. Since Mom is the only one wanting sex at the moment, you could try some moderate hormone reduction techniques on her, and not do it to dad since he's doing such a good job with the babies. I have never been able to talk my birds out of a second clutch although I've been quite successful at preventing them from starting a third clutch.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Tielfan, what kind of techniques could i use on her?


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

She is getting really desperate now, she practically laid over the food dish, tail in air and he very calmly moved her wing and continued to eat !! lol
They have a favourite mating perch and i hung a toy with a bell on it in the middle. I can tell it really bothers her cos she keeps attacking it when shes trying to position herself and call to him!!
If they dont succeed in mating she can still lay fertile eggs right from previous matings? I think i read somewhere it was 30 days?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Most of the time the long nights treatment is a good way to reduce hormones - that's 12 to 14 hours of uninterrupted darkness every night. But this technique could be less useful with a hen that's actively breeding because it's a little too much like spending a lot of time inside a nestbox. 

Disruption techniques are useful too - that's changing things around to make the environment feel less secure. But a lot of the usual methods are off limits because you only want to disrupt the hen, not the cock and the chicks. You could try having her spend some time in a different cage, particularly at night when she isn't needed to feed the babies and her absence will be less noticeable to the male. Maybe that will annoy her enough to make her feel less romantic. If it works at all it will probably take several days for it to have an effect.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I can tell it really bothers her cos she keeps attacking it when shes trying to position herself and call to him!!


Ooh, good move! If it's feasible to take that perch out of the cage completely it might be even more effective. If the perch needs to stay then maybe you could hang some more stuff over it.



> If they dont succeed in mating she can still lay fertile eggs right from previous matings? I think i read somewhere it was 30 days?


30 days is the usual estimate, although I've heard that the best chance is in the first two weeks. How long has it been since they mated?


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

I havent actually seen them mate recently but they might of got a sneaky one in lol The last time i saw them actively mating was mid December then she laid eggs and the oldest is 16 days now.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

They probably haven't mated in the interim. Once they stop mating frequently they usually don't do it again until they're ready for a new clutch. Your hen is obviously ready but the cock obviously isn't. But that could change at any moment - the parents typically start thinking about a new clutch when the current clutch is 3 to 4 weeks old.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

Grrr just peeped in the box and there was dad plucking away at baby 3 right in front of me!! Hes such a meanie 
Just trying to buy myself some more time, youngest is 12 days old.


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