# I have an observation and questions.



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

I wrote the dates of the laying of that second clutch very carefully and even marked each egg with a sequential number.I also projected the hatch date for each based on 21 days from the lay date.

But the best laid plains.... I guess with all the disturbance of the first clutch chick being feed and plucked and voiding in the nest I nolonger can see the numerical markings on each egg.


However since the hen didn't object to much I decided to try to candle the eggs , since IMHO the first egg could have hatched today( laid may 22, 24, 26 and 29---- estimated Hatch dates -June 12-14-16 -19)

But since not even peeping or the slightest crack I decide to use a LED Flash light to see what each egg looked like ( not knowing which is first or last).

One appeared to be yellow with some pink center, Another looked very similar but no Pink, the third look pretty much the same except there seemed to be definet Air space on one end. But the last didn't let any light through at all.

I have no idea what the air space is unless it is going sour. the others seem to be what i have seen of developing embryos since as bright as my LED light was I don't think it was bright enough. The last ( even with the same light) seems to me to have blocked all illumination possibly indicating a egg full of embryo / chick and therefore very close to hatching IMO.

What say the rest of you with out the images of the eggs?

BUDDY

I told you it's been years but i never really could/did candle any eggs with good results.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Sounds like it may be close to hatch.

Here is some of my online pix. You can click on a pix to enlarge it. Check and see if any look like yours. Many of the pix's have additional info typed on them.
http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/?start=all


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*More devlopments (Disturbing???)*

Today Sunday the 14TH when we came home and drove into the garage where the cages are I noticed Both the male and female out of the nesting box so i quickly took a look at the eggs to see if any hatching or even Piping had taken place.

What I found was one of the eggs had a section about 1/4 - 3/8 inch opened on the large end of the egg . I saw no movement but there appeared to be some shape to the contents. I did notice a faint foul smell but when I sniffed the opening in the egg it didn't seem to be from there.

My questions now are is it likely the chick could have done this ? or do the parents break open a egg when they feel it is gone bad or when the chick may be too weak?

Next what should I do??? Should i continue the opening , throw out the egg or wait to see what happens on it's own? or some combination of all of these.

BUDDY

I posted and took a second look, The egg's contents are definetly sour. How it came to be opened I don't have any idea.

That egg is the one when candles appeared to be totaly dark. or at least I think so. The 3 remaining now appear as follows. One has a dark section that appears fluid , since it does move around when the egg is rotated. Another is yellowish with some pink but does have some colorless void also. The other is yellow and pink ( slightly) but the egg appears full.

The hen was definetly incubating the eggs this morning , despite her being out the box later. I am having serious reservations to the Viability of any of these eggs.

Iam Very sorry I don't have the expertise to post pictures of any kind but definetly like those srteil posted.

I know I am pessimistic at best but what now is the consensus? Also how long should I leave the box up and the eggs in it if they don't hatch. remeber this pair breed and laid before the other chick left the nest.

Also any guesses as to why the eggs might not be fertile?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Can you take a pix and post it of the egg?

First thing is remove the egg. Dampen a Q=tip in waem water and insert it into the open end of the egg. If this area looks dry the Q-tip will add moisture so that you can see, especially if the membrane turned a white papery look. "IF" the chick is alive when you look at the membrane you would see thickened blood veins if the chick has not drawn in blood and yolk. If the veins look very dark and thin, and no movement with the baby it could possibly be dead. When dead the exterior of the shell feels really cool/chilled. If there is life there would be a little warmth the the shell.

'IF' alive I can walk you thru what to do provided you post some pix so that I know what is going on.

I just expereinced the same thing with a pair. They tried to open an egg. In my case it was fluid filled with excessive moisture from humidity. The 'Norm' though is low humidity and the chick gets trapped/stuck to the membrane inside the egg and can't turn to pip out. Some parents hear this and try to open the shell more 'to help' Many times this can result in injury to the chick. If found early enough, and alive it might possibly be saved...


Also take a look at my online albums...is there any pix's that look like what you are seeing?
http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/?start=all


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*I followed your instructions*

First Srteils Thank you for all your quick and informed advise.

Not being able to transfer pics at this time and not wanting to waste more time learning ( no at this time) I did what you suggested with the moist Q-tip. At first I was hopeful since the contents didn't all seem dry and dirty as the top. However there was absolutely no movement . But being hopeful I tore away at the egg in steps and continued to use the moist q-tip. there was a fully formed chick inside and below the dried top surface it was moist but sour smelling. The chick had all it's wings and legs but IMHO the Head was a bit smaller than it should be It had what appeared to be some wet down on it's back and the Yoke sack seemed to still be attached at the bottom near the belly. It was greenish yellow and that is what smelled.

There was absolutely no movement of any kind and before removing it totally it appeared very much like the Mal positioned lack of moisture picture of yours that was halved.

For future references sine I can't help this chick does it seem that the lack of moisture did this chick in ? I tried to spray the parents when they where nesting in a hope their moisture was what help the eggs. But is it external moisture or internal? And what can be done for either problem? Can the very warm atmophereic temperature of the gargae be the culprit?

Any guess at the rest ( with no pics i know this is difficult to say the least. Also since the male is near 8 years old and the hen is 18 Months to 2 years are either or both of them poor candidate s for breeders? Is the fact that this and the previus clutch wher this hens very first of any significance to the clutch success?

BUDDY


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Ok...was the head towards the fat round end or still facing downwards? If it had turned and started to pip, which it's beak would be located towards the upper 1/3 of the egg then it could have gotten trapped. Then I would be suspicious of lack of humidity.

Since you mentioned it appeared similar to the malpositioned chick, then the baby may not have completely turned yet and the head was either between the legs, or located close to the midle 1/2 point of the egg. In this case I would be suspicious of the egg getting chilled at a critical point resulting in an early death. Many times with chilling you may also see small amounts of hemerhaging (can't spell today) 

As to the discolored yolk that most likely occurred after the chick died. Most times it decomposes or breaks down quicker than the chick does

OK...as to a possible moisture/humidity problem and how to increase if needed. With spraying the parents it _must be_ there abdomens that get wet. Spraying their backs is not going to be much help. Location/room doesn't matter if the humidity in the enviroment/weather is low. There is one way to get around this. If the nestbox is wooden just spray/mist the inside walls/sides of the box...taking care *not* to get any overspray on the bedding or the eggs.

The ages of your birds don't seem to be a problem.

Have you checked/candled the other eggs in the nest? How are they?


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

since the egg issue is being answered 

please do not house birds in a garage specially one being used with vehicles being driven in and out.

a garage is not a safe place for a bird


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Excellent point!!! Good thinking.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*My best photographic efforts*










This is my first try did it work? The eggs didn't appear as i wanted since the light peeked around the shells .But you can see all three of the tiels Momma -cinnamon - dad- Gray with some highlights and the scrawny chick _UNO Born on or about the end of April or the first days of May. We weren't here.LOL

In all honesty what you are seeing I am not sure I can duplicate. I only hope the eggs are recognizable. But at any rate what do you think of my Bird family?

The DOA chick did have it's head either down of tucked to the side. I assume that means it smothered in the Shell. However my original question is still a mystery to me. Did it Pip out or did mom and/or dad try to help? The hole was much larger than any non-hatching I have seen.

BUDDY

Is there a photographic trick to get clearer images of the egg's contents? maybe useing a tube /funnel to concentrate the illumination through the shell?

BTW did I identify my birds accurately? also I have been trying to relocate the cages but they have done OK for years. still i want to bring them inside but not for the car Exhaust but the high temps and in the summer and low in the winter. I do however have two windows open in that garage with one fan pointing and another smaller one blowing out, with screens in front of each. I would think that would exhaust the car fumes since I only start the car with the Auto garage door open.


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

Time to be harsh....

First; If your birds were OK, they would have hatched all of their eggs.

I am not even going to advice on the proper way to provide proper humidity after seeing your current baby, which is BADLY plucked !
Why ?????

If your garage is a good living enviroment , why is your bed not out there ?

The temeperature & humidity are not controllable in a garage enough to have birds living in there. (let alone the car fumes)
Unless, you have a furnace/air conditioner & all of the things your house has !

I am shocked your birds are alive at all.
Once you get your birds into the house, we will be more than happy to share in politeness.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_*I am not even going to advice on the proper way to provide proper humidity after seeing your current baby, which is BADLY plucked !
Why ?????*_
_*------------------------------------*_
The plucked baby was from another post and most likely from the parents trying to get it to fledge. The baby is now fledged, being parent fed and getting his feathers back in.

OK...as to your original question if it was trapped and made the holes you would have seen some dried down of the baby sticking out and/or thru the hole very dried white membrane ABOVE where the hole was. From your decription it was already DIS (dead in shell) in the process of turning and I suspect might have got a slight crack and an adult enlarged it. Hard to tell without seeing the egg.

Ok...some tips on taking pix's of candled eggs. If you have a small Mag-lite that would be great. If it is a large flashlight you can cup your hand around the lens to help concentrate the light. I ususally go into a dark room. Place the egg down on something soft. Place the flashlight end right up against the aircell or round end of the egg. the camera is about 18 inches to 2 feet from the egg...on a normal/auto setting and I take several pix's. Download the pix. How you get the candled egg to really show up and fill up the screen is to crop away most of the background from the pix, focusing on just the egg. You can adjust exposure and contrast in a digital program to help with seeing detail better. For posting under edit or fix 'resize' the pix to about 500 pixels across.


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

Sr , you must know more about Buddy's set-up...
I am not aware of any place on Earth tho, that a garage that houses birds with cars
is a good enviroment ?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

No...his mention of the garage was recent. I was commenting as to the plucked baby, etc. No offence


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

None taken, 
I am glad you explained the plucked baby, I gather it is doing better, 
I am just absolutly shocked .... about birds in a garage For Years ! 
Why bother having them ? (Not a question to SR)

I can understand having an outdoor avairy in a climate that allows it, I would Love that 

All the birds flying in a more natural setting is one thing, but,
if a person has a home where the climate requires birds to be inside, 
Then I say *Get them in the house *or give them to someone who can.
That's all....
Hopefully I did not sound too mean for the actuall importance to be taken in by Buddy.


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*While I appreciate ALL advise*

Tony if anything I have said is misleading I apologize. But if anything I now will say sounds ungrateful I am sorry but be assured that is not my intentions.

I realize the garage isn't the best option I have but for now it has to do. I am in the process of moving things to bring BOTH large cages inside the House. However some things you may ahve missed in other post i have made is that the Scrawny Chick looks far better now then when I pulled it and placed it in a cage by itself . This occured when the pair laid again while it was only 2-3 weeks old and they ( unknowingly to me) started massively Plucking the chick to get it out of the nest. (Pix to follow ) But I only realized this when the Pin feathered Crest on the chick disappeared. But I had written post HERE asking advise even before the crest went or I saw any blood feather marks but when the chick devloped it's flights and tail feathers completely and while hand feeding it ( starting with 3 a day - 2 aday - to 1.5 per day) i once allowed it to sit on the table in a make shift nest and it FLEW to the top of our kitchen cabinets . I also ahve said the chick would climb out of the nest on it's own even at 3+ weeks old and occasionally climb back in.That would seem to be evidence of a fairly strong ( even if unfeathered) chick since inmy previus 5-6 clutches NONE where able to fend for them selves that early. In fact when i traveled some e 35 miles to my original Bird supplier ( Birds Unlimited of Metairie , la.) the Owner couldn't belive any 3-4 week chick was flying on it own.

Next I never start up any car ( Mine or visitors) with out opening the automatic door FIRST> still while making this precaution I also have installed two fans in the two windows in the garage ( One facing in and the other facing out and they run 24/7)

I do spray wash both breeding birds regularly to the point of almost saturating them. I have until the eggs where laid taken the cage outside on my rear Deck to allow them to have sun light . But even now with the eggs and chicks I occasionally open the garage door and leave it open watching that the neighborhood cats don't visit.

But in hind sight when I did breed those 5-6 clutches with the same male and another hen I hardly ever , in fact never remeber ALL eggs hatching and they where house in my Dinning room in the same cages with the same living conditions we had . In fact my biggest fear was and still is that the A/C set on 70-72 would chill the eggs and naked chicks . and when they where in the A/C I had huge covers mad for the entire cages ( both).

Next I will be very happy to learn you house all your birds in your bed room or at least in the same conditions in which you sleep . But No I don't sleep in the garage nor does my wife who has suffered from Back surgeries and recent stokes and asthma need to experience the birds and their dust adding to her infirmities.

But I do truly appreciate your concern and advise and hope I haven't been too harsh as to cause you or anyone else to stop offering it. But i did think i made my lack of EXPERTISE apparent and thought that I would have my errors friendly corrected if all my and my birds conditions where seen and understood.

Sorry I don't come up to the level of you Tony or any one else here But that is why I ask as many questions as I have in such a short time and why I have tried to supply my first ever Pictures which admittedly don't tell you the whole story.

The Images below are the same chick i posted earlier , only 3-weeks earlier and just before the Crest seen here had been Plucked while i tried to ask why it's back and chest only had a very few tiny pin feathers and it's wings and tail where almost complete ( even more than i expected by natural development of escape plumage. The flying Occur ed only maybe a week or less later.

BTW the garage with the fans open is a large spacious Two+ car garage and the windows are on the opposite side of the cages which are near the internal door to the house and central A/C and Heat. Also in the winter I have a hoist that allows me to cover the cage and lift them to the 10 foot ceilings where there is more warm air. But As Tony so rightly pointed out this is purely the secondary choice of location , it is jsut that the best is utilized by my infirmed wife at this time. 

Maybe with the additional info I furnished I can get even more expert advise of what I am doing wrong? Other than not hand feeding but the doubled clutch hatching I mentioned in previus experienecs we did raise several cluthes until we Gave 9 of them away to that same Shop I mentioned . And only because they wheren't tame like hand feed and no one wanted to pay us or the shop what other hand feed teils drew ( BTW I only had One DIS chick in all of those. Hence why i didn't know why the egg was open and still)). So to say i am not as informed as any of you is a given. But to say I am completely inexperineced or cruel is IMHO stretching the facts some what.


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

Thank You for explaining Buddy, My Apologies for letting off steam directly at you.
We all have to learn somewhere, somehow. Everyone 'just started' at some point,
And I am far from any expert, just defenitley know some very basic rules for any bird housing.

I do not know what climate you live in, which hinders some advice, but I defenitely would not keep breeding birds near an A/C unless it is Extremly Hot. (over 100 degrees)

The other thing that comes to mind, is Do your birds get plenty of natural sunlight ?
wether in a house or garage ?

Other than that, I hope we can move on in good terms from here on.

Also, That is very amazing about the baby bird, Thank You for sharing.
Sorry for the short post here, but gotta run now. more later....


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*No wit is my turn to make uniformed opinions*

Tony I am very confused. I know you said you don't know what climate I live in and I assume that is because you don't recognize MANDEVILLE ,Louisiana.That may be my fault once again. I mentioned in some other post and I just assumed all my post had been followed by those who offered direct advise. Mea Culpa , Mea Maxima Culpa!

For those who aren't aware Mandeville is just north of Lake Pontchartrain from new orleans by way of the Longest bridge in the USA - The Causeway - 24.9 miles over the lake.I also lived previously in St. Bernard which was decimated by Hurricane Katrina and was located just East of N/O. but not so you'd notice the streets stop and start.

But at any rate , since it is 30 miles north of NO. The winters do get colder for more days than N.O. But to say that a garage is unsuited and then to say that,"but I definitely would not keep breeding birds near an A/C unless it is Extremely Hot. (over 100 degrees)" is a very good indication you aren't aware of the Climate.Especially when you tersely asked would I sleep in the Garage.My question to you is which do you feel is beter the garage or the A/C that is where we sleep?

While my garage rarely if ever gets over 100 degrees in the depth of summer it is very warm. But the alternative for Human comfort is to only have A/C since the Humidity here can and does climb about 80-90% on a regualr basis. So either they endure the extreme temp and humid changes of the more than barren garage which is attached to the house and has sheet rock and textured walls along with 10 ft high ceilings finished the same way , which have BTW Insulation batting in the attic over them and 12-12 pitch roof that have as much as 10 ft head room, by a double wide automatic garage door and a 30 in. entrance door directly into the house or thay have NO choice but to endure the very same sleeping/ living conditions that we humans love . That BTW all but necessitates A/C set on 72 degrees at least . 

So I have to admit confusion of multple points. Which don't/ didn't you know or understand? But even admitting that I didn't like the atmosphere of the garage that is attached to the house and does at time experience our seepage I thought I made it abundantly clear that when relocating the birds to the garage i did make very certain to not Idle any car in the same confines and when not running I tried at my best to affect a circulation system to the outside by installing two fans blowing in one window at out another at all times. I also tried in my last post to assure everyone, till I had chicks and eggs to consider, I regularly rolled the 30X36X 18 cage out side for hours at a time ,even when the Nest box was attached.

But still more confuseing to me and nothing that reflects on your replies directly , is when the first clutch only produced 1 in 3 chicks and it was the hens very first clutch , but they breed and laid even before the one chick was 3 weeks old and then they tried to push it out the Nest By plucking it , how was i to prevent that? 

I mean , I had no indication they where about to lay before the chick weaned or fledged and until I noticed the pin feta herd crest missing on the chick I had no idea why this poor chick seemed to be naked except some very devloped Wings and tail. In fact I was worried about some disease that made the chicks molt excessively and in reality is precisely why I joined your very friendly and informative forum.( if you do a search with BUDDY as your key word I think you may agree.)


But since this is the hand I was dealt after a long absence I also asked for help with the viability of the second clutch and subsequently the DIS chick that I am still hoping to learn what caused. 

BTW Srteils i did try to retake the egg candled photos and no luck. The Flash lit up everything too much.I'll try when they can settled down.

But I did discover another disturbing things. Th egg that had movable dark liquid in it some how ruptured. I had a concave section in it and no insides but the box smelled like rotten eggs.

I naturally removed it and cleaned out the box and numbered the 2 remainningeggs and replaced all the bedding/ The egg with air sapce and yellow contents seems to be drying internally , the other egg which is totally yellow appears the same even now. IMHO it is my only hope for any chicks. At earliest it would have hatched on the 19 of June and maybe later with delay in sitting.

The hen seemed to be less desirous to stay inside and I assumed that may be the spillage of the rotten egg. At any rate when i clean up every thing they both retuirned to setting.

If all are bad when should I pull everything? And should I place the hen in the cage with he maturing Chick or the male? otherwise I have little doubt they will mate and breed again?

BUDDY


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

"I assume that is because you don't recognize MANDEVILLE ,Louisiana."

If you do not fill out your profile info, your location does not follow your threads & posts.

"But at any rate , since it is 30 miles north of NO. The winters do get colder for more days than N.O. But to say that a garage is unsuited and then to say that,"but I definitely would not keep breeding birds near an A/C unless it is Extremely Hot. (over 100 degrees)" is a very good indication you aren't aware of the Climate.Especially when you tersely asked would I sleep in the Garage.My question to you is which do you feel is beter the garage or the A/C that is where we sleep?"

I can not answer this either, we live in a climate where the house has to be heated year round.

"But still more confuseing to me and nothing that reflects on your replies directly , is when the first clutch only produced 1 in 3 chicks and it was the hens very first clutch , but they breed and laid even before the one chick was 3 weeks old and then they tried to push it out the Nest By plucking it , how was i to prevent that? "

We have learned that very close observation & daily inspections of the chicks is crucial to catching any issues before they become big problems, 
Also, as a reminder we only just got started with our hobby avairy last year & are still learning just like you. We started working with large parrots eons ago, but the learning never ends.

It sounds like SR is a much better resource to answer your breeding questions, since you both live in similar climates, 
And it also sounds like your birds are in need of a more sunlight, along with a more controlled temp & humidity to stay somewhat even, but again SR knows a lot more about all of that. Along with many other folks here.

Plus, now that you are upset about my comments, I doubt anything else I say will matter to ya.
But, your garage sounds Much better than what I had invisioned...


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## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Tony i am sorry I have made you make some very bad *** u M ptions*

Tony :
First I thought I had filled out my profile completely but I will investigate any omission. As to to Your climate I can't imagine the house 
any where that "has to be heated year round." But also I Guess i missed your profile also and subsiquently your location .As I guess you did mine. Maybe we come up equal there.


But in an effort to better understand where I live , even on this side of lake Pontchartrain where it does dip below freezing more often we NEVER need the heat year round nor do we need the A/C for the same amount of time. But we do need and use both. Hence I didn't understand your seemingly contradictory reply of not leaving the birds where I wouldn't sleep myself but also saying that in the A/c that we do use and need almost all sumer and sometimes into the Autumn you would expose the eggs and chicks to A/C unless the Garage temp was 100 or better and at our humid hot temps my garage rarely ever gets to that sort of temp if ever. and With the fans I installed it is even less likely.

As to the conditions of my Garage , I have no way of knowing what your or anyone else's garages are like and to assume all where as mine would be IMO a grievous mistake. However it is a garage and as such isn't he place of highest preference. But make on mistake i wasn't flaunting my home/garage against any other. As I said I have suffered the misfortune of Hurricane Katrina and know only too well what derivations and how fortunate we now are to live in this very nice home. But I am sure there are others that would make mine pale by comparison.

My title was my poorly constructed parody on an old cliche. "ASSUMEING makes and *** of U and me ( assume), and yes your assumptions well founded and other wise along with what I ASSUME is an aire of superiority has put you and I and anyone who would do like wise on a poor footing which at least can only improve with Better communication and desires to help. But If I am out of line I will go else where for the help I and My birds need and seek.

BUDDY


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

I do not think you will find a better group of helpful folks than here.

I do not back down on my belief that a garage is not suitable bird housing tho, 

The only way it could be is if you spend most of your time there while they are breeding (since that is your goal here)
If you want to find out why you are having DIS, please go back to the food/nutrition/breeding posts & read the top sticky posts.

It seems you are having problems ( I mean the birds are not being successful) 
because of lack of Sunlight, & balanced nutrition.

Do you have a covered porch or another place to keep them in good weather ?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_*If you want to find out why you are having DIS, please go back to the food/nutrition/breeding posts & read the top sticky posts.*_

I doubt if the diet is the problem. If it was he would have earlier deaths, a higher incidence of infertility. From his posting his climate is very similar to mine...thus alot of the DIS is a result of the environment. In addition the birds *do* know when that egg is dead, because they can feel the very subtle movements while in the shell.


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

So you think it is a humidity issue ?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes...his weather is exactly like mine....thus he'll have similar problems. Certain times of year will be trapped in shell and other times excess moisture. The humidity is compound by the rainy seasons currently. We get sudden storms that can dramatically affect hatches. Even though the climate is moderate, even small fast changes of weather play havoc on eggs. 

I re-read his posting and noticed he is also in the Hurricane pathways that plague our southern states from now til mid-Nov. Aside from the car issue the garage may be the safest place for the birds considering his wifes health problems.


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