# Please help, Possible egg bound female



## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

I think my tiel is egg bound, about 2 hours ago i noticed she wasn't her normal self and her wings were sat low, i then realised she was kind of panting. She laid her 1st egg yesterday morning and this is her 2nd.

Obviously there are no vets at this time of night so what can i do for her???? I've put some oil on the opening where the egg comes out and i've sat in a hot steaming bathroom for the last half hour or so, i've put the heating on to keep her warm. 

I have no calcium supplement for her as all the pet shops round here either dont stock or have run out so i'm waiting on a delivery from online. I cant find a single thing in the house that she could eat that she is allowed that also has calcium. Only things i have are cheese & milk. 

They have egg binding mix in there food and a cuttlefish and mineral block, the only other food she will eat other than seed is brown bread, she wont eat any fruit or veg. I have tried everything with her and she wont touch it. Please please help, i love her with all my heart and really dont want to lose her. 

I'm from chesterfield and so far have not been able to find a vet that deals with birds, does anyone know any?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...if she layed an egg yesterday she should not be laying another one til tomorrow. Your handling her during the ovulation...which means an egg is traveling down the oviduct....can cause more harm than good.

With true egg-binding the hen is unable to move around. This means even a wild bird would be so docile that it would sit there and let you pick it up.


As to calcium....you can scrape some powder from the cuttlebone, and offer it on your fingertip or if she is able to eat on her seed. If you have TUMS or a calcium tablet crush it into a powder and do the above.

Here is an article (incomplete) for you to read: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/egg-related-problems.html


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

She is a very tame bird but there r certian things which she doesn't let us do like stroke her back and other things and she's letting us do them. She also does a very small squeak if we hurt her and isn't squarking like she would normally. I dont have any tums. I think we have some rene. Is that the same thing? She is sitting on one of the food pots at the very top of the cage and i'm worried she is going to fall as she doesn't appear to steady on her feet but if i lower her she just climbs back up. I'm going to give her the cuttlebone scrapings now. I've also given her a few drops of water. She is trying to clean herself underneath. I think its were the oil has gotten on her feathers.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Just got up and freddy seems a little more lively this morning. She hissed at me when i aproached the cage. She's still messing with her back end. I've given her more scrappings off the cuttlebone but she wouldn't take much. She doesn't seem to be rocking as much as she was and she doesn't appear to be panting anymore. There is no sign of another egg anywhere in the cage. Oh and her wings aren't as low anymore but she still looks very tired and refusing to sit anywhere but on her food pot


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

I've managed to get some calcium supplement now and i've put some in her water. Is there anyother way to get it into her other than the water? Can i give her a drop on my finger?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*There is no sign of another egg anywhere in the cage. *
*------------------------------------------------*

Look carefully. At the time of your original posting she was not due to lay the egg til the following day. The handling could have caused a developing egg to break inside and if so if would appear in the cage tray like thiose shown below.

If she is acting better today try not to handle her too much. The only thing I might suggest is that you weigh her of you have a scales that weighs in grams. This is helpful info in knowing the birds weight prior to laying too. A hen will can 5-6 grams in weight prior to laying the egg. If a hen does not lay again (eggs are laid every other day) and the weigh continues to go up this is an indication that there is a problem going on.

As to the calcium...if she is moving around in the cage give her time to go down and drink. If she will eat from your hand you can have a drop of calcium on a favorite treat. BUT what is more important than calcium is good lighting. Access to real sunlight several times a week or a full spectrum light above the cage. proper lighting helps the body to assilulate calcium better.


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## leeisme (Feb 4, 2011)

Crazy, hope all goes well with your tiel.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Thank u for th advice, she seems lots better now but still no sign of an egg anywhere! She is in her box sitting on the 1st egg she laid. She is no longer showing any signs of being egg bound so i dont know what to think. I keep checking the box every hour to make sure she is ok. If she will come out of the box i'm going to give her a little brown bread with a drop of the calcium supplement on. She has had some of the water and eaten food too but she wont eat the greens i've put in for them. No matter how many times i offer it she just wont go near it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and praying she's going to be ok.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I don't think she was ever egg bound. Be careful with giving too much calcium. In excess it can be harmful to the kidneys.

Ideally calcium sources should come from several sources. below is some helpful info I have been working on...

The Importance of Calcium​　
We have all heard that it is important to supply calcium sources, especially when a bird is laying or breeding. The reason why is to provide enough calcium intake to produce strong, dense shell on the eggs, and to also be a preventative to soft of shelless eggs, which can contribute to egg binding and/or dystocia, impaction or prolapse of the uterus.

The most common recommendation is supplying cuttlebone or calcium supplements, and greens or veggies that are rich in calcium. In supplying this we think the bases are covered and aid as a preventative to a hens reproduction problems, yet have a hen that passes a soft shelled egg or is egg-bound…*why?*
* 
*Most times this is not enough. There are several factors that can influence the output of calcium circulating in the bloodstream, which is drawn from the bones while an egg is in the uterus (shell gland). 

*1...Proper lighting plays an important role in good reproductive health of hens*. Either available in the form of real sunlight (not filtered thru glass) or from Full Spectrum Lighting (FSL) In simple terms the skin absorbs the UV (ultra violet) rays from the lighting and the body converts it to useable D3, and this in turn aids the uptake of useable calcium. 

*2...Preventative water treatments such as ACV can change the pH in the digestive tract*. When the pH is higher than 6.5, absorption of phosphorus markedly decreases. Excess free fatty acids in the diet can cause the pH to decrease and therefore, interfere with calcium and phosphorus absorption. In summary, if the intestinal flora and pH is altered this can cause several problems. If preventative treatments are used it is better *to find the cause *and correct it. 

*3...Researching the sources of calcium and other mineral nutrients is very important. *High levels of phosphorus in the blood will inhibit the mobilization of calcium from bone. When this occurs this increases the chances of soft-shelled eggs which can lead to impactions and binding.

You can go online to search for the following: You can look up on this site which foods (Nutrient lists) are high in calcium: 
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ 
 
Below is a listing of what a shell consists of. When researching foods nutrient contents you will want to also look up which greens/veggies foods contain trace elements of the following:
Calcium carbonate: 94-97% 
Phosphorus: 0.3%
Magnesium: 0.2%
Sodium, Potassium, Manganese, Iron and Copper: traces 
Organic matter: 2% 
The small amount of organic matter mostly consists of matrix proteins (mixture of proteins and polysaccharides rich in sulphated molecules) and shell pigment. The matrix proteins are critically important in determining the egg shell structure and serves as foundation for the deposition of calcium carbonate. 

The structure of an eggshell when examined under a high powered microscope will look like a tangled network of mineralized fibers…kind of like looking at the mat in an air conditioner filter. The eggshell is formed around a mat of proteins, which is coated and overgrown by calcium carbonate and other mineral salts. The result is a tough, waterproof package that still allows gas exchange between the inside and the outside, enabling the developing embryo to 'breath', while providing astonishing mechanical strength. The shell has enough calcium carbonate in it, which as the embryo gets close to hatch, it can use this reserve to draw into the body and bloodstream for the developing bones.
　
*NOTE: most greens and veggies contain oxalic acids. *These will bind useable calcium from foods. What you want to do is look for foods that have a *higher* calcium content than oxalic acid. _The *useable calcium *is the difference between the two._ Print out the following tables from both links:
Guinea Lynx ::Oxalic Acid in Selected Vegetables
Guinea Lynx :: Calcium Chart 
Once you print out the 2 links above, you will have to look at the listed calcium level in this link: http://www.guinealynx.info/diet_ratio.html Deduct the oxalic acid levels to give you a clearer pix of the calcium to phosphorus ratios. The calcium to phosphorus ratio should be 2:1.
 
*Examining and providing the best sources of calcium does not stop at providing good shell quality. 

*During the last 15 hours of shell formation (when the egg is in the uterus, also called a shell gland), calcium movement across the shell gland reaches a rate of 100-150 mg/hr. This process draws calcium from two sources: diet and bone. Intestinal absorption of calcium in the diet is about 40% when the shell gland is inactive, but reaches 72% when active. This time closely coincides with late afternoon or the dark hours for the layer. Having higher calcium levels in the gut during this time is important to ensure calcium is being taken from the diet and not bone.

*NOTE: We are warned not to provide sources of sodium to our birds, *but many can go to the extremes of eliminating all sources of sodium and this can have an negative effect on a laying hen. The lack of (or deficiency) trace minerals and salt can be contributing factors to soft shelled eggs, and poor uterine muscle tone. This is also true of many birds that die of egg binding. Salt/sodium aids in the muscle contractions. When there is a deficiency there can be a loss of muscle tone to expel the egg. Therefore in your researching on a diet supplying needed calcium, and other trace minerals, try to include sources of sodium.

The need for a good source of calcium does not stop at supplying it prior to egg laying. The calcium is drawn into the developing embryo as it grows through the vascular network of blood veins radiating into the body from the yolk. During this time the embryo draws calcium from the shell to strengthen developing bones. If the calcium in the shell is insufficient this can contribute to weaker bones, and problems such as splayed leg , soft flexible leg bones, and/or fractures forming within days after hatch. For good bone growth and strength these post hatch problems can be avoided by supplying food sources rich in calcium and trace minerals to the feeding parents.

Examine any eggs when they are layed. Ideally what you want to see is a uniform color and smoothness to the shell. If there is any swirling to the shell that looks like alternating bands of pinkish and white this is an indication that not enough calcium was in the body as the shell was being formed. The pale areas of the shell are weaker and can be sources of moisture loss as the developing embryo grows and after piping it will draw from the calcium reserves of the shell. If there is insufficient calcium this can be seen by soft areas of the shell collapsing inward and appearing like large dents. If the shell is compromised and fluid is lost this can also result with a chick trapped in the shell which in turn can cause death if not assisted out. 

If there are deposits of calcium on the exterior of the egg, which appear as gritty lumps adhered to the egg this could be an indication that there might possibly be an infection in the uterus (shell gland)


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

She has just this minute laid the egg! So fingers crossed there r no more problems!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Great news!...she laid right on schedule. The next egg due will be approx. 48 hours from now.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The time she lays also is helpful. Since she is laying this time it will be aprox the same time 2 days from now that she will lay the next egg. So with this information you can make sure that there are plenty of good calcium sources fresh and available several hours prior to laying.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

This is the longest its taken her to lay the next egg, she normally only goes around 36 hours between lays, is that normal?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

This is normal. An average is up to 48 hours for the egg to travel trough the length of the oviduct. When you see her back slightly hunched she is having a little pain...similar to labor pains. During this time do not handle the bird to much and make sure that there is nothing that can cause sudden disturbances of panics. If you look at the illus and info below bear in mind that the oviduct is a very thin membrane which is why during laying movement and disturbances should be kept to a minimum. It can tear easily, and if calcium is not in good supply in the body when the egg is in regiion 4 then several problems can occur.

*Here is some info and an lllustration: *In the illus I am showing several yolks...which are just to show the path they travel. During ovualtion their is only *1 yolk per* cyclying period.

*The oviduct consists of 5 regions.* 
Right above the oviduct is the ovary. The ovary consists of follicles which the yolk emerges from. The yolk is dropped into the funnel to the...

*1...Infundibulum*, which is the upper portion of the funnel. Sperm travels up the oviduct and the yolk gets fertilized here. As the yolk travels down the infundibulum it picks up the outer membrane to the yolk and the chalazae which acts to suspend the yolk in the egg. *Time in this area is: 1 hour*

*2...Magnum*, is the area where the egg white is formed which consists of: albumen, Na, Mg, and Ca. *Time in this area is: 3 hours*

*3...Isthmus* is the area where the inner and outer shell membranes are formed. _*Time in this area is:* *1-2 hours*_

*4...Uterus* is also called the shell gland. First there is a plumping of the egg (additional H2O), and then the shell is added. *Time in this area is: 20-26 hours*

*5...Vagina* is where the cuticula is added to the exterior of the shell. Another term is oviposition, which the pointed end of the egg is facing the cloaca for expulsion from the body._ *Time in this area is: seconds*_


If you look at my illustration you will see the ovary/yolk above the funnel of the infundibulum. Some problems that can occur during ovulation are:

Ectopic ovalation is occurs when the infundibulum fails to engulf the ovian (yolk) because of reverse peristalis of the oviduct, trauma or stress. If the egg moves too fast (don't know the causes of this) then it does not pick up the yolk but the other steps are done in the uterus. An egg with no yolk will not hatch.

Oviductal diseases that may result from ectoptic ovulation may include infectious salpingitis, rupture of the oviduct, cystic hyperplasia, peritonitis. 

Egg yolk peritonitis is most common with: cockatiels, budgies, lovebirds, ducks and macaws. Clinical signs include weight loss, depression, respiratory distress, anorexia, and ascites. Abdominal distension may or may not be present.

Click on the pix for a larger view. You can print it out and save for reference.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Freddy is again showing signs of being egg bound again. She laid the last egg bound one on saturday and hasn't laid since but has been fine and no problems at all. I've been putting calcium in her water every day as she still wont eat any fresh food other than brown bread or toast. They have been out in the sun all day today and yesterday as the weather has been perfect for them to be out. She was fine until about 3 hours after being in the sun. I'm at a complete loss as to why she could be egg bound again and scared to death i will lose her. She hasn't been near the nest box, just sat on her food pot, wings low, panting and shaking a little. Her wings r still low now but no more shaking and panting. She isn't as bad as she was friday night as she wont let me near her ( she normally lets me play with the back of her head and neck and when she was like this friday she let me do this as it soothed and calmed her down) I think as well she may have been sick??? She shook herself earlier and some drops of liquid (looked like water) came out of her beak but i dont think she had recently had a drink so not sure what that was. Her head also looks a little wet and i can't figure out why. Is she sweating due to the pain?? I've added 2 extra drops of calcium supplement to her water when she started like this ( they have one of those drinking pots with the spout on the bottom and sits through the bars and i normally put 2 drops in, the instructions sat 10 to 20 drops per litre and there is 1 10th of a litre in the water pot so i put 2 drops in, is this too much or not enough?) I really hate all this as it's changed Freddy lots but we felt we had no choice but to let her breed as she spent all last summer doing the mating call. I just want what is best for my bird and wish i could help her through all this pain.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Also, they have been mating today. Twice that i saw, once around 7am this morning and again around 10am. Is it possible that she's just having pain as the egg is traveling down to come out?
I'm really really worried about her. I have said she doesn't look as bad as she did friday night when she was egg bound but after checking on her now she does look as bad. I'm scared to go to bed and leave her incase something happens and i'm not here for her but after a full day of decorating and cleaning i'll just end up falling asleep anyway. I'm so scared for her. I really really dont want to lose her and i really think i am


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

How are you getting them out into the sun, are you picking them up or moving the cage, during this period that bird should not be stressed by movement or handling. And if they are mating its quite possible she's not egg bound, she wouldnt have the strength, a truly egg bound hen will die within hours of non treatment or passing the egg..


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If she is moving around and mating she is not egg bound. And yes, they do have pain when the egg is traveling down the oviduct.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

she has taken a turn for the worst. i just found in the bottom of her nest box wings spread out and not moving. one of her eyes is slightly bulging. please help, i think she is dying, shes not responding to anything


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

take her to the vet.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

sounds very serious, i definately think nwoodrow is right... i dont know if anyone here can help. she needs a vet.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

There aren't any around here that deal with birds i tried before at the weekend, i just dont understand how she went from perfectly fine to this in a matter of hours


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

somethings going on....
did you give her too much calcium drops in the water? just wondering if thats a possibility?


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

no, if anything i'm not sure i put enough in. She started out with egg binding symptoms, now i dont know what is wrong with her, her breathing isn't strong and she is very weak. I've got her out of the nest box and she's sat on my chest. I haven't touched her stomach incase she is egg bound but now i daren't leave her alone.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

have you looked at her vent, you could try putting some lubricant on the opening. But it doesnt always work without help from a medical professional.

And just because she looked egg bound (had egg in lower abdomen) does not mean she was, she laid right on schedule my hens from 1 day before the first egg until the last egg is laid always look like they have an egg, i just have to know that when the first egg is laid to count 48 hours and thats when i should see the second egg.

Since Saturday, how often have you handled her, moved her or did anything with her besides let her rest in her cage. I know you took her out into the sun, but even though sunlight is good taking her to it was not the greatest way to give it to her, most breeders if they dont use outside avairies use full spectrum lights to provide the birds the light they need.

Have you tried letting her bathe in a dish of warm water.

How long was she out in the direct sunlight, did she have cover she could go to if she got hot.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

She hasn't been handled at all since breeding started. I took them outside in there cage and yes she had shelter if needed. We r sat in the bathroom with the shower on it's hottest setting for humidatity. It seems to have brought her round slightly but not much. Her first clutch she laid every 36 hours, this time she went 48 due to it being soft but she hasn't laid since Saturday but they have been mating every day. How do I know if I gave to much calcium? As said I only put what the bottle said to in her water


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

They were out in the sun for about 3 to 4 hours


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

okay moving the cage unless an absolute must is just as bad as handling as it still stresses the bird out.

Ok just cause it took 48 hours does not mean it was soft, normal laying is 48 hours, some hens lay early but that isnt the rule and not all hens will lay the same way every time.

so its wednesday now, and they are still mating, either the egg got stuck (not egg bound) but stuck it can stay there until removed surgically, but a hen that is Egg bound if she struggles with an egg for more than a few hours without help can be fatal. the fact that she didnt lay on MONDAY and its now wednesday, something else is going on, she may have finished that clutch, or she may have jumped the gun on the mating time line but if she has gone 4 days and now is acting weird i dont think its egg binding, i think that if she does have an egg it may be stuck. When hens are in the laying process (Day 1 of nest box up until last egg laid) that hen should not be Handled, cage moved, or anything, once the brooding has started the hen may be out during the day and that is when it is safe to handle her for short periods of time.

I have a hen that laid 4 eggs, she just recently lost her mate, but i allowed her to lay, i gave calcium and there were no laying problems but she laid eggs 72 hours apart.

If she had of been Egg Bound these symptoms would have shown up on Monday which would have been when the next egg was due to be laid. You really should take her to a Doctor cause there could be something else going on.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

They r used to me moving the cage as it's something i have always done for cleaning them out etc as it would be impossible to clean out where the cage sits.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

but during breeding you shouldnt move them... you technically should limit cleanings too as it can stress them. thats what i heard anyways


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*this time she went 48 due to it being soft*
*------------------------------------------*

Can you clarify on what you mean by soft?


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

During breeding season I make sure my pairs go into nice clean cages, then the nest box goes up, and i start conditioning them to me peeking in that box, i dont clean the cage until 2 days after the last egg is laid to confirm the clutch is done, then i clean it when needed by changing the newspaper and water and food dishes, any major cleaning can be done at a later date.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

I do leave the cleaning while they r at this stage of breeding. But moving the cage doesn't stress them out as it's something they r used to happening and was always done regularly. The biggest thing that stresses them out is checking the nest box which i also avoid doing. I only check when eggs r due to be hatched to see if it has arrived safely and thats it. Freddy doesn't have a problem with me looking it the box, it's the male dez that has issues with me looking in the box


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

so when you move the cage your birds dont cling to the bars of flap around, they just sit calmly on the bottom and look at you, the jolting is what were trying to discourage.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

The male flaps a little but only because he's not as used to it. Freddy never flinches when we move the cage and there is no jolting and from where they cage is it's not a huge distance to get the out of the door. I currently cant afford a full spectrum light as my partner has just been laid off. I love this bird with all my heart and i would never do anything to stress her out or upset her especially after friday night when she was egg bound. I have been sat here with her crying most of the evening. I have been to bed for all of 15 mins before i was back in here with her checking on her and found her with her wings spread out and barely breathing. I have done everything correctly as far as i can see. I've followed all the rules and given her the best care. 
The question about the soft egg from friday/saturday. Late friday evening she started with egg binding syptoms, i put veg oil around her opening and sat with her in the bathroom, saturday morning i managed to get hold of some calcium supplement and within an hour of me adding it to her water she laid the egg but then sunday when i peeked through the hole as they were both eating there was only 1 egg so i can only assume that the shell was too soft and when they tried to sit it, it broke


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

The fact that she layed her egg within the 48 hour range on friday means she was not egg bound. 

here is some info i found for you. http://thetrueparrot.homestead.com/health.html

"Egg Binding



Egg binding is the inability of a hen to pass a developed or partially developed egg. The inability to pass the egg quickly results in the death of the hen. Female birds can generate eggs even if they're not exposed to or mating with a male. If you have a female bird, you might someday come upon an egg or two that she's laid in her cage, exclusive of having a proper nest. 



Causes



There are lots of theories on why egg binding occurs, but most theories aren't strong enough to explain all cases of egg binding. The most viable theory is that egg binding is caused by poor nutrition. Problems metabolizing Calcium properly, caused by a lack of Vitamin D3 or too much Phosphorus in the diet, and damaged mucous membranes in the vent area are some theories.



Prevention

•Use of full-spectrum lighting for all birds to help with Vitamin D3 absorption 

•Using Vitamin D3 supplements 

•Feeding foods with a proper Calcium to Phosphorus ratio (about 2 times as much Calcium as Phosphorus) 

•Feeding foods high in linoleic acid (Vitamin F) and Vitamin A, which will help to keep the cloaca membranes soft and flexible 



Treatment

•Call a vet immediately! Egg binding can be deadly. 

•Keep the bird warm and quiet environment. 

•Give your bird Calcium, as it will help her to expel the egg. 

•Massage a small amount of vegetable oil around to her vent help the hen pass the egg. 

•Once the egg has passed, you should now assess the nutritional problems that caused this problem in the first place. "

And just cause she doesnt look stressed doesnt mean she isnt.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

Cockatiels are very sensitive to high calcium and high calcium/Vitamin D3 levels
Care must be taken with vitamin supplements not to provide too much calcium.
It has been shown that calcium levels in the diet of over 1% decrease the utilization of proteins, fats, vitamins, phosphorus, magnesium, iron, iodine,
zinc and manganese. At a level of 2.5% in the diet nephrosis, hypercalcemia, hypophosphotemia, visceral and renal gout, and decreased food intake have 
been observed.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

is there still only 1 egg in the nest box, i got a shock when i thought my birds were only sitting on 7 eggs but mommy was hiding it undernneath her and it moved when she did until i actually lifted her out so that she wouldnt jump on the eggs i was candeling and found 2 more, i had truly though she was done, and if you read all the books on cockatiel breeding the normal egg laying pattern is 48 hours so you may have caught her in labor and the calcium may of helped but it was still in the normal range fo rthe egg to be laid.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

i've read all these things lots of times but none of them explain what is happening to her right now. everything she is was doing inticates she is egg bound. her wings r low, fast breathing, she was rocking but she appears too weak now. she is barely able to stand anymore she is also having some trouble holding her head up sometimes. i dont know if she is more comfy in her nesting box or sat on my chest. before breeding she was a very loving bird who loved to come sit on my shoulder for hours and have the back of her neck scratched. i just wish someone could tell me whats wrong and i could help her. she laid her first egg last thursday morning and by her previous laying she should have laid friday night but instead started with egg binding symptoms she then laid a soft shelled egg which broke. since then she has shown no signs of having anymore eggs but the birds were still mating. then early this evening she started behaving in the same way as she did friday night only this time she appears to be a lot worse. friday she would take water from my finger now she can't even open her beck. i've spent most of this evening sobbing my heart out and begging her to stay strong and make it through the night. i'm struggling to keep my eyes open but thats nothing compared to what she must be going through right night. i just want her to be ok


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

is there only 1 egg in the box


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I think so...it sounds like one disappeared. If it broke but hadn't developed yet there wouldn't be any bacteria in it to make her sick would there?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I'm surprised the soft shelled egg was not mentioned sooner. This is not good. If more softshelled eggs are develping they could impact in the uterus and when the hen tries to strain ro lay there is a high risk of a prolapse of the uterus and/or oviduct.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

That sounds like what's happening here srtiels, she's been acting egg bound and is now barely moving...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

It is the prior soft-shelled egg that worries me....and this should have been mentioned. The other egg should be examined to see if the shell looks smooth and uniform in color.

If there is/was an infection in the uterus that is effecting the shell gland production...meaning preventing the uterus to release enough calcium for a hard shell....then the softshelled egg can adhere to the yterus, and the next egg traveling down the uterus could break and impact on top of that one. With straining the uterus/oviduct prolapses out of the body. it looks like a mass of bloody tissue hanging from the vent.

*Just some FYI emergency info...*if a hen prolapses, do not panic. Until the bird can be seen by a vet the best thing to do is to keep the tissue moist. NEVER allow the tissue to dry because then it can not be put back in the body and can result in mass infection and death. Hold the hen gently and let some warm running water from the faucet flow over the tissue to clean and keep it moist. Then gently blot the excess moisture of the tissue. Sprinkle the entire exposed tissue with a generous coating of sugar. Leave the sugar on the tissue for 10 min. Rinse the sugar off under running water. Blot off excess water. Use a damp Q-tip to gently reinsert the tissue back in the body. If all goes well the tissue should stay in the body. If it does pop back out, repeat the steps above. The body will realign the tissue inside the bird. If the tissue will not stay in the body, keep moist until you can get to a vet. A vet will have to reinsert it and stitch the opening smaller.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

I dont know 100% if the egg was soft. The egg was perfectly formed to look at when it came out and looked the same as the 1st egg, it looked smooth no dents or anything like that it. When i realised the egg had disappeared i thought it had got buried or something so left it a while and then noticed some of the chippings looked a little bit wet so i took the box out to get a better look and to see if i could find it. There was only a small amount of shell left.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Freddy has passed away. Gutted. I wont ever being doing anything like this again. I thought i was helping as her she spent the whole of last summer doing the mating call, i researched and researched before finally allowing her to do it but there is a lot of miss information out there and not enough information on what can go wrong and the concequences of breeding birds. I blame myself for allowing this to happen. She was such a lovely loving bird before all of this and i wish i had just left her doing the mating call.


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## Flick (Apr 19, 2011)

I am very sorry for your loss.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

(((((HUGS))))))

Below is a pix (click for a larger veiw) that shows a soft-shelled (shelless) egg. You had mentioned that you did find the shell in the nest so possibly it may not have been one. Normal eggs can get broken in the nest is they accidently get stepped on, especially during night panics.

Even though the vet is not close to you you might still want to go to a vet to get a necropsy done to find out exactly what was the cause of death. Since she could move around prior to you finding her later on it does not sound like a classic egg-binding. From your description it sounds like she may have sufffered a stroke from circulating yolk material in her body that if got in the bloodstream and traveled to the brain contribute to stroke-like symptoms or partial parralysis (sp) 

It sounds like you did everything you could possibly do, but a necropsy could give answers such as sometimes it could be a predisposed genetic problem that caused her difficulty. I learned that hens inherit their reproductive abilities from their mothers and if her mother had had occassional difficulties with laying it can get passed down to the daughters.

How is your male doing? If he still has an interest in taking care of the nest...let him. It will help him with his grief and a single bird can successfully incubate and hatch and raise a chick. Since it would be a single parent do not cover the cage or totally turn off the lights. keep lights on 24/7...just at night use a lower wattage light or a strong night light.

(((HUGS)))....Fly free Freddy


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Thank for ur kind words, i haven't stopped crying all day. My son wanted to bury her and didn't like the idea of her being cut open so we have buried her in a lovely sunny spot on the garden with her favorite toy.
As soon as Freddy passed dez seemed to know as he started flapping about in the cage and screaching. He has been in the nest box all day sitting on the egg only coming out for food. He looks so sad in there all on his own. I'm praying to god that this one works. It will be lovely to have a little bit of Freddy still here with us. 
The egg she laid saturday atfer being egg bound didn't look anything like those in the pictures. It looked perfectly formed and normal. It may not have been soft, i just assumed it would be and that was why it had broken but at that point both of them were in the box all day long and freddy had a habit of flapping about if dez got in her way so it could have been broken due to that. I don't even know if it was the egg that she laid saturday that was broken or the one she's laid thursday as they both looked the same. I've held the egg thats in there now and it's all normal. Towards the end she wasn't acting like she was egg bound. It does sound maybe like she had a stroke like u have described as one of her eyes was bulging very slightly and had a red ting to it. I just hope she wasn't in too much pain and she passed knowing how very much we all love her. Here's hoping for a freddy 2 in the egg we have left of her. If this egg is successful do u know what mutation she would be? Freddy was a lutino and dez is a typical tiel, mainly grey with a yellow head and yellow in his wings


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

if possible to get pictures of daddy so that we can help you with the mutation of the babe, i feel your pain hun i have a recently widowed hen sitting on 5 eggs.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

((((HUGS)))) It is sooo sad when we lose our sweeties  From your description it does sound like she may have suffered a stroke. When it first happened there would have been a quick sharp pain, but I don't think afterwards there would have been any pain.

That is good that Dez is caring for the egg. Daddy birds are very maternal when it comes to eggs and babies. 

*You can start another thread and title it: the Journal of a Single Parent Bird.* This way you can keep the thread separate from this one. Post a pix of Dez, front and side so that we can see what he looks like and see if he may be carrying other gens. Since Freddy was a lutino, if he is just a normal grey then all the babies would be grey...BUT if he is carrying other genes, you will know when the babies hatch and pinfeather out. For example he could be split to cinnamon, pearl or lutino....which you can sometimes tell the mutations and sex when they hatch. Or both parents could be split to pied.... It is these unknowns that result in surprize colors in the nest


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

This is the only picture of dez i have at the minute. Next time he is out of the box i will get more of him. 
And the other picture is Freddy just before we got dez, She loved coming and sitting on the laptop


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

Freddy was absolutely beautiful, and Dez is split for pied, but i will let more experienced mutation experts note on if they can see the other possibilities as Pied is the easiest to tell, with the tick marks behind his crest and back of head.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Freddy looks very yellow. If she was a uniform soft buttery yellow all over her body she may have been a lutino pied. If the yellow was most dense and lacey looking on her back she could have been a lutino pearl or lutino pearl pied. Dez looks like he may possibly be split to pied.

Fingers crossed that all goes well and it will be interseing to see what the baby will be.


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

She was very yellow yes and her colouring was completely even. She was a beautiful colour and her feather were very soft and silky. Dez is soft too but not like freddy was. If ur correct about there mutations could the chick look like either of them or just dez?


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Oh i have started the thread u have suggested. It is a very good idea. Thank u


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK....if she was uniforn in her color then she defintely was also pied or carrying the gene. And since Dez appears to be split to pied you can possibly get some pied babies. if he is carrying other genes you'll know when the baby feathers out. Good Luck


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## Cr4zycow (Apr 3, 2011)

Thank u for all ur help. I dont think i could have got through all of this without this forum


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