# 2nd clutch for Bart & Nibbles brought a surprise



## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

They had 3 babies this time, We've checked in on them many times all were fed. clean etc. (we don't start handling them normally until we band them). 

well yesterday was the day to band the 2nd oldest So while Bart & Nibbles was out eating/ stretching etc. I took that chance to Get the baby out - Nibbles doesn't mind us in there - Bart doesn't like it ( a protective daddy )

This was my surprise (and I'll explain why it's a surprise in a minute)





















now you're prob. wondering why this is a surprise to us , well here are Bart & Nibbles 










Now these are the babies from the 1st clutch (they had 3 all 3 looked the same)










Now We've suspected Bart to be split to more than just Pied, only because of all the mutations of the tiels who came with him, and the Surprise that Sun Dance (who came with Bart) gave us - When we put him with Goldie and got a white face Cinnamon pearl - it meant he was split to cinnamon 

So we made a list of all the mutations of the tiels who came with them. and here it is and how we think it goes 

We think Hop a Long and Lucy were either parents to them all, or at least Most, We know Hop A long was 21 yrs old (he was the only one w/ a leg band on) And Lucy Looked just as old as him 

Now this is what I know - 
Hop a Long was a white face (not sure if he was split to anything ) 
Lucy - Lutino - Not sure if she was split to anything
Then there was a Pied White Face Male, 
Pearl Pied Female 
Pied Female 
White Face Pearl Split to cinnamon 
Cinnamon Pearl 
then Bart Grey Split to pied (known) 

So I've done the outcome of these babies several different ways

but I did use our way of Sexing (the nut on a string) it hasn't been wrong yet for us. So until i am proved other wise (it says one is a male and that one lays an egg) I'm going by it, We'll continue to sex it several times a week (we do it 10 times in a row, then put the baby back and in a few days do it 10 more times etc.) and what ever comes out the most , is what it normally is 

So far it's been done a total of 20 times (2 different times) and 20 times it says this lutino baby is a boy!!

I know alot of people turn their nose up to sexing a bird this way but this method has been used for many many many years (i'm pretty sure it's been around a lot longer than DNA testing)

My boyfriend figured it out this morning we've used this method on 114 of our birds (this is babies we've bred and are at their new homes) and it has been right every time 

we just did it last month on the Quaker who came with the 2 cockatoos - we know nothing about this Quaker The owner didn't even know if it was a boy or a girl it said it was a girl (we did it 10 times), the next morning there was an Egg in her cage (thankfully none since)

So IF it is a boy, the only way to get a boy lutino is Both parents have the Lutino Gene (it is highly possiable Bart is split to lutino as well as pied)

Females can't be split (i know this) So that would make Nibbles a Lutino Pied (MAYBE), I've never seen one, No one knows anything about Nibbles , I got her and baby from Pet Finder - They knew nothing about either one. 

Now the other odd thing (and this isn't just with this tiel) ok Lutino and Albino babies, your supposed to know what they're going to be before they open their eyes - because the eyes are pink through the skin and not the normal Dark - this babies eyes were dark (thats how come this is a surprise to us!!)

Ok and with my Budgies 2nd Clutch ( Casper & Shadow) they had 4 Albinos out of their 5 chicks - All their babies had dark eyes , I didnt know they were Albinos until they opened their eyes. 

Bart and Nibbles has one more baby the eyes wasn't open yesterday but they were dark 

we really thought this clutch was going to be 3 more pieds - 

I know my birds love to spring surprises on me and they love to confuse me ( i mean it is so easy to do lol), but this was a Awesome surprise I love Lutinos - and Since Lily died I've been thinking of getting another one - I never thought I'd have a baby though - since I no longer have lutinos and haven't for several months


I've searched for a picture of a Lutino Pied but I can't find one, So if any one has one (preferably that shows a whole body shot including the back) I'd like to see it. 


oh and one last thing since it's obvious Bart is Split to Lutino - The 2 babies from their 1st clutch if one is Male it'll be split to Lutino as well right?


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## kimmikefids (Aug 2, 2008)

wow!!! the more i hear about mutations and splits, the more i get confused lol....Thats why if/when Chico and Belle decide to procreate....I'm so intrigued to see what pops up as we have no idea about Chico's splits....or really anything other than I know for sure he is pied lol....wow 114 babies!!!!!! is that including budgies?? You must be beyond expert at feeding lol....do you handfeed all? anyway what a beautiful little guy....Belle is a lutino and they are just so elegant.....


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

The boys from your first clutch may or may not be split to lutino. If a male has a sex linked split he will only pass those genes on to half of his male offspring. So if there were two boys statistically one should be a lutino split as well. If you go by the rules of sex linked genetics your Lutino baby has to be a girl. The only way to get a boy is if Mom was a Lutino also. A hen can't carry a sex linked gene without showing it. She can however carry a reccessive gene like Whiteface. I would love to hear about this "nut on a string method"! can't wait to hear what your baby turns out to be. So many interesting things happening with genetics these days.


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

kimmikefids said:


> wow!!! the more i hear about mutations and splits, the more i get confused lol....Thats why if/when Chico and Belle decide to procreate....I'm so intrigued to see what pops up as we have no idea about Chico's splits....or really anything other than I know for sure he is pied lol....wow 114 babies!!!!!! is that including budgies?? You must be beyond expert at feeding lol....do you handfeed all? anyway what a beautiful little guy....Belle is a lutino and they are just so elegant.....


that includes budgies babies, adults, tiel babies adults, Quakers, the cockatoos, and Lovebirds, But no I haven't hand fed all the babies (right now already banded budgies I'm on 34 leg bands) tiel babies that are already banded I'm on number 16. I've only hand fed my Lovebird Roxy when i got her, and these 2 Pied tiels I'm hand feeding now but I'm going to be hand feeding at least 3 more in the coming weeks 



sweetrsue said:


> The boys from your first clutch may or may not be split to lutino. If a male has a sex linked split he will only pass those genes on to half of his male offspring. So if there were two boys statistically one should be a lutino split as well. If you go by the rules of sex linked genetics your Lutino baby has to be a girl. The only way to get a boy is if Mom was a Lutino also. A hen can't carry a sex linked gene without showing it. She can however carry a reccessive gene like Whiteface. I would love to hear about this "nut on a string method"! can't wait to hear what your baby turns out to be. So many interesting things happening with genetics these days.


The Nut on a string is just that  a light weight nut tied to a string (people use it on pregnant women but normally use a Needle on a string or a Ring on a string)

if it goes back and forth it's male, if it goes in a circle it's a female


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## bigmikey36 (Aug 5, 2008)

i found a website but the link won't work on here for some reason but what it says is that a lutino pied is possible and the difference is that she/he will have a lot of creamy white with no yellow pigment thru it in patches


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## bigmikey36 (Aug 5, 2008)

http://www.parrotpages.com/tielMutations.htm if you go on this site and click lutino and pied it will bring you to another page....look at the picture from k+l aviaries. hope this helps


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

bigmikey36 said:


> http://www.parrotpages.com/tielMutations.htm if you go on this site and click lutino and pied it will bring you to another page....look at the picture from k+l aviaries. hope this helps


thanks i'll go have a look

according to that website, she's not a pied lutino - but then again that's not what i had pictured in my head one was lol - but that is normally how it works


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## kimmikefids (Aug 2, 2008)

it's so confusing....Mike finds the mutations and splits really interesting.....it makes me have to think too much and get this face..i am intersted tho and when i get it...its very exciting lol....i now understand x1 and x2 and where the baby gets each from....that was a milestone for me....the big light bulb turning on lol...maybe over time it will sink in more lol...


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

kimmikefids said:


> it's so confusing....Mike finds the mutations and splits really interesting.....it makes me have to think too much and get this face..i am intersted tho and when i get it...its very exciting lol....i now understand x1 and x2 and where the baby gets each from....that was a milestone for me....the big light bulb turning on lol...maybe over time it will sink in more lol...


haha i still don't the X1, X2 thing and i've read on it so many times 

But most mutations I understand, Can't always tell what they are but i do understand them  or at least for the most part anyway :blush:


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

I think my understanding nof genetics is pretty basic and probably out of date. I read and read and read that section of my cockatiel book and I made that same face.  They one day it was as if a light came on "Oh...I get it". If you keep making that face  Eventually you will make this face  By the time I get all caught up with all the new stuff that's happened in the past 20 years IT will be out of date


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## kimmikefids (Aug 2, 2008)

Haha sweet I cant wait to make the  face about cockatiel genetics!!!!!I get that X1 is from teh father and X2 is from the mother.....but then alll the splits comes into it and im back to  lol....still i'll keep working at it


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

From what I recall the reccessive genes can be carried by both males and females so if one parent was Whiteface for example but the other was not none of the offspring would be Whiteface but they would all be split for it. As far as sex linked goes...if the Father is a Lutino and the hen was not...all the female offspring would be Lutino and all the males would not be Visual Lutinos but they would be split for it.
There are so many new mutations that I need to study all over again to get which ones are reccessive and which ones are sex linked.


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