# HELP!!! Over fed chick?



## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Hi everybody. Is it possible/probable for new parent birds to over feed their baby? There is only one that was a fertile egg of four, and the chick is only five days old today (hatched on the 25th). The parents have been doing a good job tending to the chick, but I'm not sure if they are supposed to feed the baby as much as they do. Yesterday the chick weighed ten grams with an empty crop, today it weighs sixteen grams and the crop looks really full. It's the biggest I've ever seen it. It is almost as large as the chicks stomach and looks unevenly filled and it must be streched. I am thinking maybe the are feeding it so much because they don't have other chicks to feed and have a strong instinct to feed. Please help if you have any advise or info. I don't want to have to pull the chick, but I might really need to. Is it possible to over stretch the crop at this age so as to need a crop bra? Do I need to pull the chick and hand feed it? Thanks for any help.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

I would separate the chick from the parents for two hours to see if the crop is emptying. Provide supplementary heat to keep the chick at about 95 degrees F (35 C). If the crop is emptying only slowly, feed a mix of baking soda, cayenne pepper, garlic, and cinnamon mixed with hand feed formula to help avoid aspiration (I use powdered gatoraide as well). If the crop is not emptying at all on its own it may become necessary to empty the crop yourself either using special equipment or by getting the bird to regurgitate the sour contents, this may require the aid of a vet.

The best cure for slow crop is prevention and careful monitoring of the chick's crop. Once a day let the chick's crop empty if the parents aren't doing that already.


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Hmm...he looks a little behind on development. It seems like he's too small to be 5 days old, but it may be the scale of your hands, since I'm looking at my old pictures. You should be seeing a slight darkening of the wing area.

Yeah, you'll want to see if his crop is emptying. Check for any large, prominent red veins on the crop skin and see if the crop is a doughy texture. Be careful handling the crop though, you don't want to aspirate the chick.


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## Nimra (Aug 4, 2014)

The chick sure does not look normal. Maybe you can take it to the vet? It will be more better than curing it at home.


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## yokobirdie (Jul 9, 2014)

Does he have sour crop? If so, srtiels has a great page on that.  Good luck with your baby!


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Ok, I seperated the chick for a little while and the crop was emptying.

Fred, I did notice a long thin but bright red vein in the crop, and it definitely had a "doughy" feeling to it. But I started feeding my adults some plain white rice as a soft food, then I started to mix a little steamed broccoli and spinich into the rice so I figured that is what made the babies crop feel doughy. I didn't notice any darkening on the wings.

yoko, I don't think it has sour crop but I will certainlykeep an eye out for that, thanks for the info.

I put the chick back with the parents till this morning. When I checked on it the crop was completely empty. I was reading a little on the subject, what I could find, and some people said it was normal for the crop to get very swollen. Even one person, with the same concern as me, said that the babies crop looked like it was "going to explode any minute" and someone replied that it was normal. There weren't any pictures so it's anyone's guess what the situation actually was. I'm not sure I would take that advise as a solid fact. As to the chick's size, I'm not sure how big it shoud be at this stage but here are some pics. for comparison to well known objects. A quarter and a well know brand of lighter.


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Alright, sounds good! Sometimes the size of their crops does seem a little concerning. If it helps here's a nice full crop at 4 days. 



But you really want to watch his development. For a young cockatiel chick, 1 day means a tremendous amount of growth. You should avoid white rice. It's really only good for calories, not much else. 

At 7 days he should be looking like this.



(It's the same baby, so you can see that the amount of growth in 3 days is absolutely remarkable)


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

I lost a chick once to sour crop. Never be shy of testing the crop to make sure its emptying correctly. Better safe than sorry, glad he's okay.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Fred, that pic. of the 4 day old with a full crop puts me more at ease as far as the size of my chick's crop. but the chick in your photo does look more developed than my chick even at only four days. Your chick looks like it's wings are larger and the bird is less fuzzy. I am blown away at the difference three days made to the chick in your photo. By the way, I looked today and I did see some darkening on the wing's fore limbs. Like light black stripes, one on each wing. Fairly faint but clearly visible.

I would like to get my chick on the right side of the track so it will be healthy, do you guys have any suggestions on what to feed the parents to promote proper chick development? All my birds want is seed and, now, rice and millet.

Darkel, thanks for the tip. Is there a way to test for sour crop other than the vet? I have seen pics. online of what it might look like but if there is a sure fire way to check I'd be glad to know.

Also, the father is a bit on the runty side himself, could this be a reason for the apparent lack of development?

Thanks sooo much for all your help you guys, and for all your concern and encouragement!!


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

My male is also fairly small. He's about 80g at his largest, 75g on average, whereas my female is around 95g on average. I don't believe size of the parents affects developmental rates, although your chick may end up being on the smaller side once he/she is fully grown. 

It may just be me, but I do think your chick is a little behind on development. He/she doesn't look quite where they usually should be at that age, although time of the day also has to be taken into account, since they grow so rapidly.

If by the 7th day it hasn't started to grow in pins on the wing and opening it's eyes, I would say that it's stunted. 

My birds aren't too keen on soft foods normally, but go crazy for it when they're breeding. They'll basically eat anything I offer them. Veggies (you should try preparing them in various ways- steaming, chopping, boiling, processing- to see what your birds like the most although I've found that hanging or sticking them upright encourages my birds to eat them), 100% whole wheat or multigrain bread, and softened and warm pellets are good things to offer them. For seed junkies, you should try sprouting seed, using their regular seed mix, and nutriberries. If they won't eat the ball, crush it up and they'll probably take to it quickly. 

By doughy I meant like if you pinch a bit it doesn't bounce back. It'll hold that pinched shape for a little bit. And of course, we're here to help! We don't mind at all.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Well, the crop is doughy in the way you're describing it. I can pinch it softly and it will retain the shape. I will try some of your food suggestions, thanks. I know that my birds didn't eat anything other than bread/unsalted crackers, millet and their seed before they had a chick. I've even offered rice before and it was snubbed, so it must be that they will try new things right now. I am going to look around online but wondered if you might know what to do for a stunted chick. Is there something I can do to help it catch up to around where it should be developmentally?


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Usually with a stunted chick, the main cause is dehydration. Here's a helpful link about assist-feeding. It also contains an album about chicks in trouble with many pictures of sour crop. 

http://www.justcockatiels.net/assist-feeding-chicks-in-the-nest.html

http://www.internationalcockatielresource.com/assist-feeding-chicks.html

I would make sure that the chick actually needs help before doing anything. I'm not very experienced in this area as I've only had experience with 15 babies from the same pair, so don't take just my word. I would get a second opinion and wait a little while longer.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

PlanetaryCancer said:


> Darkel, thanks for the tip. Is there a way to test for sour crop other than the vet? I have seen pics. online of what it might look like but if there is a sure fire way to check I'd be glad to know.


In the advanced stages the GI tract stops completely. Sour crop is often a symptom of a infection, usually yeast. The crop will not empty or will only empty very slowly in sour crop.



PlanetaryCancer said:


> Also, the father is a bit on the runty side himself, could this be a reason for the apparent lack of development?


Genetics plays a role. Alternatively, it may have hatched a day or so earlier than the "watch me grow" diagram did. Some chicks take longer to get out of the egg than others, but development will often continue even inside the egg. Hatch day isn't a perfect yard stick to development. And even between any two birds and any number of other variables the incubation rates tend to vary too. There is room for maybe a day or two difference, anything more and you have a stunted and possibly dehydrated chick.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Thanks guys! I've been going over a lot of the info. on the posted links and various other sites, and it occured to me that for the first couple of days the birds didn't have any soft foods, just seed and millet. I learned that the first 12-24 hrs the baby would not need to be fed since it would be "feeding" off the yolk (thank you Darkel  ), so I wasn't too worried about soft foods yet. But I should have been offering it to them none the less so they could get used to it and be ready it to feed it to the baby. Typical newbie blunder... So from what I gather, it could be stunted from initially being fed hard seed that had little to no moisture in it thus dehydrating the chick enough to cause stunting... And by the time I introduced the soft food it was too late. I have removed the seed and put in fresh (raw) sweet baby bell pepper, steamed broccoli mashed up with cheerios mashed into it and a pice of wheat bread. I will go today and get some pellets, maybe I can find some nutriberries. I read somewhere that if the reason for the stunting is corrected that the chick will catch up to where it should be but may be smaller as an adult than it would've been if it hadn't ever been stunted. 

Hopefully it will grow into a healthy birdie.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

I take suet feeders big enough for them to peck at. Then I spread some hand feed formula on whole grain bread and put it inside. Occasionally, I put kale or broccoli in there too. I call it my "birdie sandwich" (my wife came up with the name). Its quick, easy, and gets the job done.

Remember, even with pellets the parents have to drink plenty of water for the chick to digest it properly. Bread and vegetables are the softest and easiest things for the chick to digest. Perky(my lutino) once accidently impacted the crop of a chick by feeding pellets with very little water.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Lol, birdie sandwich that's awesome. I got some pellets and nitri-berries. Would it help to make the pellets more wet than enough to just soften them? They don't much like the nutri-berries, but then it is a new food to them. I have been steaming the broccoli and spinach just enough to make easy to mash up, I know that raw veggies have more nutrition but I don't cook it to death either. I think I like your patented "birdie sandwich" idea. They, of course, love bread. I will be sure to get whole grain. All I had at the house was wheat, but I know that the whole grain is more nutritious. If I used your idea of spreading formula on the bread, do you think I should make it the consistency recommended for a six day old or should I make it a bit more on the on the watery side? I know this all seems very "needy" but your experience and know how are hard to find elsewhere. Even the pet store doesn't seem to be very much help beyond the run of the mill info. that is helpful to a point, but it's no substitute for the wealth of knowledge that comes with actual experience.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

PlanetaryCancer said:


> Lol, birdie sandwich that's awesome. I got some pellets and nitri-berries. Would it help to make the pellets more wet than enough to just soften them?


I have heard that works, but my flock won't touch wet pellets or oatmeal (but enjoy the dry varieties of both).



PlanetaryCancer said:


> They don't much like the nutri-berries, but then it is a new food to them. I have been steaming the broccoli and spinach just enough to make easy to mash up, I know that raw veggies have more nutrition but I don't cook it to death either. I think I like your patented "birdie sandwich" idea. They, of course, love bread. I will be sure to get whole grain. All I had at the house was wheat, but I know that the whole grain is more nutritious. If I used your idea of spreading formula on the bread, do you think I should make it the consistency recommended for a six day old or should I make it a bit more on the on the watery side? I know this all seems very "needy" but your experience and know how are hard to find elsewhere. Even the pet store doesn't seem to be very much help beyond the run of the mill info. that is helpful to a point, but it's no substitute for the wealth of knowledge that comes with actual experience.


I don't mix the formula, I just spread the powder and place it between two pieces of bread. The parents gobble it right up and feed it to the chicks. I avoid mixing it because the powder itself has a longer shelf life than when mixed, there is a lower risk of bacterial growth that way.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Oh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I would've really made a mess of things, lol. My birds will eat eat the wet pellets, but I had to mix it with some of the mashed steamed broccoli with crushed cheerios I've been making for them.

Well at this point I'm pretty sure I have a stunted or developmentally slow chick. It sems healthy enough, but then I don't know how chicks are supposed to act at any stage of growth. It can stand up and hold it's head up, but it only makes noise when feeding. Sometimes when I take it to get it's weight, it will look stright up with it's neck stretched and do a little pant or hiss for a few breaths. I have not seen it walk and don't know if it does or not. It's eyes are not yet open. The parents are feeding it but maybe there is a problem with slow crop or something. How fast should it be emptying? I am at work from 2-10 pm every day so I don't know what the parents are doing for that time. Should I start to assist feed? If this is something I should be doing I can either feed the baby before and after work, though usally when I get home the crop is full, or I can take the chick to work and feed it a few times there. This is the seventh day and the chick looks noting like the mini vulture it should look like at this stage. Here is what it looks like today. I am going to start a new thread for this issue since the situation is now out of context for the thread title.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Yeah, going off the awkward headshape, he does look a little stunted.

The crop should be emptying every 2 hours if the parents aren't feeding continously. His crop does not look like sour crop it's quite small. I'm thinking this was just caused by dehydration. If hydration is expected to continue being an issue, I would hand feed a few times a day using gatoraide instead of water.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Awesome, you are a life saver. I think I will feed a couple times a day to see if that helps. I did notice though that today when I weighed it that it's droppings had a bit of fluid in it. Not like diarrhea, but there was the mass and then with it but not mixed was some liquid. I don't know if that means it has been getting more liquid in it's food, or if it is a had sign. I'm trying to look it up. Thank you very much.


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Remember that you don't want to cause sour crop. Read the assist feeding articles carefully and if possible try not to do too much.


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Thanks Fredandiris, I really don't want to cause any unnecessary problems. My chick is clearly, at this point not developing at a "normal" rate, it's crop is not emptying within two hours. Tonight I took the baby out at 10:45 pm and it is now 1 am and it's crop is just about as large as it was when I took it out, but it has been pooping a lot. Probably normal for chicks, I haven't spent this much time with it before. One thing is, that I can't leave any soft food in the cage for too long lest it grow bacteria and really cause issues. So I leave seed and bread and millet for the adults when I go to work. It looks like that is what they've been feeding the chick again. The crop is doughy to where I can pinch it and it does not bounce back very quickly, it may be the seed because yesterday when I was off and able to provide fresh soft foods through the day the crop did come back to shape almost right away. Tonight is a differnt story. Again the crop is malleable and retains the shape for a bit longer... So the food is definitely taking longer to leave the crop than it should, but I see no signs of sour crop. Can "slow crop" occur unassociated with sour crop, or are they always in tandem?


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Slow crop is just the onset of sour crop. Slow crop is when you catch this problem early, sour crop is when you have waited way too long.

The spice remedy I listed earlier from srtiel's website is very useful. It should clear up that problem you have with the crop emptying. The application of supplemental heat is equally important to the chick's ability for the crop to drain and is something else we should not forget.


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Yes, good luck with your little one. I hope he gets back on track!


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## PlanetaryCancer (May 12, 2014)

Ok. Thanks. The crop is emptying a bit better now, but I will try the spice remedy. Thank you, as always, for your help.


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## Chipper&Trillie (Sep 1, 2013)

I hope your chick is now all better.
Could I ask how you prepare rice for the parents?


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## Ptolia (Oct 21, 2014)

I've just joined the forum, and I know any advice I give now probably won't be relevant, but.... one thing that is good for slow crop is apple or apple cider vinegar. We add a couple of drops of the vinegar and a teaspoon of baby apple to the hand-raising formula when we are feeding and it really helps. 

I hope the chick is doing better, he should be almost fully feathered by now and starting to stretch his wings...


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