# So many infertile eggs!!!



## orchid221 (Jan 31, 2012)

We have a ton of birds(the bird room is at my friend's house, not mine so I'm not there everyday). We have around 30 cages of birds, don't have a bird count yet but will count all of them and post the counts on here. 

We have 1 pair that keeps laying, they've laid 2 clutches already and I want to pull them from the cage with the nest box but before we pulled the babies out of the cage, they had laid 2 more eggs and we currently don't have any birds sitting right now. Not sure what to do in that situation. 

But we have 2 pairs that have laid eggs, not fertile though. One pair would put dents in their eggs, maybe they got spooked?? 

We have a flight cage with a box and have had several tiels go in there, had some copulation going on and some eggs in the box but were also infertile. It's not just the tiels. We have a pair of lovebirds that have layed a couple clutches-infertile. 

We have some parakeets that have produced young a couple of times. We have finches and doves. The doves aren't laying and the finches have tons of eggs in their nests but I haven't seen that many babies lately. 

I'm wondering what's going on. What's the connection? Is it not typical breeding season for Michigan and does it matter that much if they're kept indoors with heat and light? 

Any ideas? My friend's husband works at a pet store so gets all the seed there and we give them millet and some veggies(not a lot).


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I broke up your posting so that it is easier to read. When it is long and rambling it gets confusing and readers can lose interest.

Have you considered having a vet checkup for the birds. Some avian vets can also look at fertile eggs to determine if they were actually fertilized and died before being laid....which can be common with related inbred birds.

Are there mixed species in the breeding room?

What experience do you have breeding? many times jumping into breeding with alot of birds does not mean you will be successful, as you've found out.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

How did you determine that the eggs were infertile - did you candle them at an appropriate time and find nothing, or did you assume the eggs were infertile because they didn't hatch?

Some birds will breed during the winter season, but most indoor birds are more "in the mood" during spring and summer. 

It sound like there are a lot of birds in that one room so it's possible that they're stressed due to overcrowding. The mix of species might have a negative effect too if some birds feel threatened by the others.

Some other possibilities: are all the birds fully mature? Immature birds are less successful breeders. Are all the pairs true male/female pairs? Sometimes people have same-sex pairs and don't know it. Are the birds in each pair unrelated to each other? When you buy birds in the same place at the same time they are often siblings, who shouldn't be allowed to make babies because of the increased risk of problems including DIS eggs.


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## orchid221 (Jan 31, 2012)

Oh, thanks, I will remember to do that with my posts so their not run-on.

We haven't had a vet check them, I'm not responsible for the financial end of it. I'll will talk to my friend about checking the eggs to see if they had something in them. She candles all the eggs pulled from the nestboxes and finds they're not fertile though.

Let me describe the birdroom. It's a large room with tons of light. We have wall to wall cages with pairs in most cages and a few cages with several birds(all the same kind, different mutations). Some of the birds were bought as proven pairs but I don't think they're necessarily "mating" pairs-is my guess.

All the birds are healthy, no disease, just tons of eggs being laid, some being sit on and some being left, and very few babies. 

The one cage has some white-face, greys, pearled, and pied and that's the cage we saw copulation taking place so we put up a nestbox-need to attach more. There were a few birds going in and out and several eggs in the box but no one ever sat on those. ??? I've read on here that colony breeding has it's downfalls but can be successful also.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Moved from a different thread:


> We are learning together but have a lot of questions unanswered, well I do at least. I'm doing my part to research so I can help to take better care of these birds and have better success rates. Everyone starts at the beginning and if that makes me an inexperienced breeder that's fine, but I'm a breeder none the less and I'm just trying to learn as much as I can.


Please encourage your friend to read as much as she can too, and the two of you can share your information with each other. It sounds like she jumped into this before she was really ready, and now she has a lot of little lives depending on her to give them what she needs.

My own recommendation would be to stop all breeding attempts with birds that aren't currently engaged in a successful attempt and wait for a more favorable time of year before you try again. Then read and learn as much as possible in the meantime so you'll both be better prepared for success when it's time to go for it. It's good that you're already thinking about what isn't working, and taking a break will give you more time to think about solutions, and also give your birds a chance to build their physical resources for breeding. 

I don't think you've mentioned diet, but breeders should be on an excellent diet for several months before they actually start breeding for maximum health. There's an article on cockatiel diet at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27479 which will also be applicable to budgies and similar small psittacines. You have to pay particular attention to the calcium needs of breeding hens, so the calcium sticky at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=19866 and the article on vitamin D at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27549 maybe be helpful.

The definition of a proven pair is a pair that has successfully produced babies in the past. Unfortunately there are unscrupulous sellers who will lie about the birds past history, or will sell proven pairs that have gotten too old to breed and are no longer useful to the seller.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*It's a large room with tons of light.*

What type of light? thru large windows? Is there any Full spectrum lighting?

This article may be of interest: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27549

What are the birds calcium, mineral and nutrient sources aside from their daily diet? This article may be of interest if breeding: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=19866

How does the shell quality look on the eggs. How often is this checked? Shell quality can be a warning sign of potential reproductive problems with the hens.

What size are your breeding cages, and the placements of the nestboxes on the cage? What type of bedding is used? All these things can contribute to success or failure.

If you finally do get the birds to give you babies, do you have outlets for them?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

LOL...tielfan, we were thinking alike with the links posted.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Well you know what they say... great minds think alike.

Immodest? Who, me?


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## orchid221 (Jan 31, 2012)

tielfan said:


> How did you determine that the eggs were infertile - did you candle them at an appropriate time and find nothing, or did you assume the eggs were infertile because they didn't hatch?
> 
> Some birds will breed during the winter season, but most indoor birds are more "in the mood" during spring and summer.
> 
> ...


yes, all the eggs are candled upon removing them from the nestbox. Yes, they definately could be stressed by all the activity and noise. And we are waiting until spring to see if there's some more activity. I can't speak for my friend or make her decisions but there will come a time that we will probably slim down the amount of birds we have.


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## orchid221 (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks for the links


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*yes, all the eggs are candled upon removing them from the nestbox.*
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Were they broken open to see what was going on? Such as the yolk rounded or flat, what did the germinal disc on 5the yolk look like? If an early death of an embryo on the germinal disc approx how soon. Were size and shape appropriate for the species of bird. Were shell color, and textures normal?


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## orchid221 (Jan 31, 2012)

Natural light thru 2 windows and overhead regular bulbs. They have cuddlebone, vitamins, and we give them fruits and veggies. I don't check the shells myself, my friend pulls them as she's there all the time. Cages and bedding are proper for the sizes of birds. 
My friend's husband is the general manager at a pet store and we sell our birds to them or independantly. You've given me a lot to check into. Thanks for your input.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Cages and bedding are proper for the sizes of birds. *
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Please clarify on what is proper, and what is being used for bedding....some types of bedding can contribute to DIS and early deaths in eggs.

*They have cuddlebone, vitamins,*

Between the lighting and the above this may not be enough to get good quality eggs. And take care with vitamins because overtime they can accumulate in the body and cause a toxicity. if the diet is researched and balanced there is absolutely no need to supplement with vitamins. In fact I was just reading in my avian medicine book that either excessive vitamins or a defeciency of certain ones contribute to infertility.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Natural light thru 2 windows and overhead regular bulbs. They have cuddlebone, vitamins, and we give them fruits and veggies.


Do they eat seeds and/or pellets? I'm specifically asking about the cockatiels and small psittacines here since I'm not knowledgeable about the dietary needs of finches and doves.

Light coming through windows is better than a dark box of a room but glass and screens don't allow UV light to pass through. By "regular lights" do you mean incandescents or some kind of fluorescent? Once again, I recommend the article on Lighting & Vit D at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27549 Also check out this article on the role of light in breeding: http://web.archive.org/web/20051109152055/http://www.users.mis.net/~pthrush/lighting/breed.html Among the statements there: "Lack of UV may result in a decrease or absence of mating behaviors." I would guess that they're talking primarily about UVA.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Here's a late-breaking thought - what can the birds see through the windows? If it's anything scary or disruptive, that would lower their desire to breed. You probably don't have hawks at this time of year but there might be other kinds of predators passing by, for example dogs and cats.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

It really sounds like you disapprove of a lot of what your partner is doing. Kudos to you for educating yourself on these matters. Do you intend on branching out on your own or are you hoping to instill changes with your current operation to better it?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I just did a posting that might be very helpful to you: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?p=244796#post244796


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