# Massive seizure-a frightening first time event



## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Hi everyone, my lovely Loki had a massive seizure this morning, and I am posting to this forum for moral support as it was a terribly frightening and unanticipated event, and I very worried about my zany tiel.

FYI I'm Linda and while I joined the forum 6 months ago, when Loki became a member of our family, I've just lurked in the background gleaning information from this wonderful site. I must thank you all for being here, and for your obvious love and compassion for these magnificent birds.

At 6:30 this morning I had just come back inside from being out with the dogs for their morning constitution, and Loki was sitting on top of his cage waiting his turn for attention. I was about 10 feet away from him when he launched of his cage and attempted to fly to me - he does not attempt to fly often as his wings are clipped and when we first brought him home he had been clipped so badly that it was literally a free fall for him when he attempted flight. He now has a bit of lift but still can't really fly. Anyway, he awkwardly landed in the water dispener for the fridge then slid to the floor at my feet. I picked him up telling him what a silly bird he was, began to stroke him and cuddle him to my chest. He loves to have his beak rubbed and when I went to do that I noticed his beak was slightly open and he was doing funny things with his tongue. I asked Loki what was up, if he hurt himself, called him a silly bird again and gently began massaging his beak. He then started leaning to his left and began arching up his wings. Again, at first I thought maybe he had a twinge, that he had jarred his wings but suddenly, he lurched out of my hands, twisting and flapping, siding off, down between the chairs and to the floor. All the while I was trying to 'catch' him in my hands but he was in full uncontrolled flap and writhing. Once on the floor it was like watching a wind up doll frantically churning, flailing and flopping. There was no sound but for the whirring and furious flapping of his wings. It seemed to go on forever, and in fact I do think it went on for a couple of minutes and certainly long enough for me to call my husband out of bed to come downstairs and see and as I began to wonder if Loki was in full-on death throes. It was horrible, truly horrible. At one point he was completely on his back, wings tight to his side, feet clenched, looking like 'okay, he's passed', when suddenly he again lurched and flapped to life righting himself. All of this took place in the open area of our kitchen floor. It was so violent that I did not attempt to pick him up or intervene as I was afraid I could hurt him more. At least there was nothing for him to catch on or get caught up in and the only struggle he faced was against himself.

When Loki finally stopped, he sat stunned and dazed on the floor. I knelt beside him, softly talking to him, then gently picked him up by grasping him over his body, keeping his wings close to his body, and using my other hand underneath for support (ordinarily he would have bitten me had I tried to grasp him over his back but he really had no awareness of what was going on). I cuddled him, cooed to him, and stroked him. For a good five minutes he just stayed with me dazed. I eventually could feel his feet move a bit, and I could tell that he was regaining strength and actually trying to 'perch' on my fingers, but of course I would not move him away from the security of my chest. -OH, it has been an hour and a half since all of this and he has just WHISTLED for the first time since. Yay! He is now on my shoulder, chattering, clicking his beak and reaching for rubs just like nothing happened. Makes me cry happy tears! Okay, with him sitting on me back to the 'event' ...

After cuddling for 10 minutes Loki seemed to have somewhat come out of his daze. I placed him on top of his cage (it is large, flat, has towels for snuggling and comfort, plus a large perch/playpen). I thought it safer he sit on the flat towelled top where he spends most of his day than put him inside his cage for him to try and grasp a perch. Loki snuggled down in the towels, puffed up his feathers and sat there all this time until just moments ago when he moved up to his rope perch and whistled. His feathers are sitting normally about his body, and he is being interactive albeit in a somewhat subdued fashion. I do not know if it is my imagination but his beak feels warmer than usual. Actually, his feet seem to be a bit warmer too but again, I may be imagining things.

We have a great avian vet here in town so I will take Loki to see her tomorrow. In the meantime, have you any suggestions as to what I should or should not do in the next 24 hours until his goes to the vet? 

By way of background, we bought Loki from our local petstore 6 months ago. He was 'surrendered' to them by a teenage boy who had two birds. Loki was only 6-8 months ago, and the female was 3 years old. He appeared in great health and feather - still is - and while he seems to love all men he has bonded to me, his primary caregiver. He wolf-whistles when anyone enters the room and each day we have a 'whistle-off' where quite often he changes up the tune and expects me to meet the challenge. He's a very cool bird who is a much loved member of our family (we also have a lovebird, 4 dogs, a cat, a mouse, three guinea pigs and a lizard - yes, kinda crazy). 

Loki has a large cage, with the above-desribed top, and is only locked inside for safety purporses when we are not home. It is situated in our dining room which is adjacent to but in full view of the kitchen. His diet is varied with cockatiel seed mix, the fortified pellets (which he doesn't really care for), supplemented with whole grain rice, cooked fish, shredded fresh and steamed veggies and more. One of his favourite treats is hemp hearts. He gets no bad stuff like junk food, cakes, cookies, etc., although admittedly he does get toast crust from time to time which he absolutely loves.

Wow, I've written a novella. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Anyone and all input will be gratefully accepted.

Loki is up on my shoulder preening himself acting like nothing at all happened!
Linda


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## rainfeather (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh, you must have felt so distressed! But, experiencing these things makes us better as bird owners. We all have to have it at one point. It's what makes us more knowlegable in the self-experiences we have with our birds. Hope Loki is doing great, though it would be a good idea to check in with the vet...


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## RexiesMuM (Sep 7, 2011)

What a scary experience , You handled it great and it sounds like he is doing okay . I would still recommend a vet check


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Yes! Very scary indeed! I second the going ahead with the Vet check up though. Even though things look fine.. these little guys can mask illnesses/problems so well. And it is possible the Vet can pick up on something and perhaps stop a future seizure.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks for the support! I will definitely take Loki to the vet tomorrow despite what appears to be a miraculous recovery. The seizure was far too intense for me to pretend nothing happened. I will keep you posted on what advice/recommendations I receive.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27427&highlight=hypocalcemia&page=2

Check out this thread, it has some good info on what could be going on.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thanks Roxy 

These 2 articles below have some very helpful info. What is interesting is that most peoples concerns for supplying a good calcium source is for females. There are a small % of male cockatiels that also need a calcium enriched diet. BUT, they also need good lighting to metabolize the calcium in their bodies.

Click on the links. Go to the menu bar and at thread tools click on view printable version and print a copy out for reference. You can highlight key points to discuss with your vet.

In the meantime til you can get to a vet if you have some TUMS crush a tablet into a powder and you can sprinkle it on any foods he will eat. You can also mix a 1/2 crushed tablet with a tsp. of water and orally take it from a syringe (just alittle) or from your fingertip. This will help get his calcium levels up. 

Lighting, Diet, Vitamin D3: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27588

Importance of calcium: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=19866


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

I had a very similar experience about a year ago. My birdy kept on going back to that situation for weeks after, but hopefully this isn't the case with yours. On the bright side, my birdy is next to me right now, as normal and healthy as ever! 

Here's wishing no more of this experiance with your little Loki.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Brilliant, thank you so very much for this information! Loki is your normal Grey male, not Lutino or one of the other varieties mentioned as being prone to calcium deficiency, but that certainly doesn't mean that calcium deficiency could not be his problem. My vet is pretty thorough and no doubt will perform bloodwork. I'll be sure to print that info for review together too. Loki has just been snacking on some kale and I will do as you suggest by giving him some crushed Tums. Our 11 year old lovebird has a full spectrum light over her cage and while I haven't done the same for Loki, I will now figure out how to fashion one for him.
Great ideas, great info. Again, thank you so very much!


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## mishkaroni (Jan 6, 2012)

As I see you're doing, taking him to the Vet may be crucial to see if there may possibly be a trigger. I had a parakeet have seizures every once in awhile, but it's painful to watch them go through such a stressing situation. She eventually passed, and it wasn't during a seizure but I still have a feeling they may have added to her shortened life.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Loki is your normal Grey male*
------------------------------

If he is split to any of the mutations mentioned, especially cinnamon he could be susceptable. Split means a mutation color inherited by one of his parents.


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

@lokilinda
here is the thread I made back when it happened to my tiel: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=16976 

please be careful and place him in a safe container/box when you take him to the vet as this was actually what triggered it to my birdy


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There are many things that can cause seizures. Here is a useful link:
http://www.avianweb.com/seizures.html


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## elinore (Jul 22, 2010)

While you are at the vet's, make certain to ask about emergency care so you are prepared if this happens again late at night or on a weekend. My Maggie had a seizure disorder that she lived with for about a year and a half before it overcame her. What I learned from our experiences is there are lots of different reasons for seizures in tiels, and they are not always detectable. Hopefully, your vet will be able to give you a diagnosis and a solution! It's great that you have a trustworthy vet nearby, but like I said, get all the emergency care info you can. You will feel much better if there is an emergency and you are prepared! Some things to ask about might be what do do if he breaks a bone or starts bleeding, and how to administer liquid if he needs it fast. My vet also gave me very helpful instruction on how to hold Maggie when she was seizing, and how to alter my hold on her based on the type of seizure she was having. You could also ask if the vet clinic has any reccommendations for an emergency clinic

Oh, one more thought. If you have a video camera or a still camera that takes video, or even a cell phone that takes video, try to keep it near Loki's cage. If he has another seizure, it might be very helpful to the vet. Best of luck!!!


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

What a scary experience. Please let us know how your vet visit goes.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey all, I took Loki to the vet to have him checked out after the seizure. You would never ever know something had happened as he sat perched on my finger looking very alert but content, preening, whistling, chirping, stretching and more. It almost seemed like he was showing off for the vet as he behaved like a little wolf-whistling poser.

The vet and I discussed all things Loki which, aside from his seizure, are good. I did explain that when we first brought him home he'd had a brutal clip on his wings and would literally free fall when attempting flight - apparently he had been a full feathered, full flight bird before being brought back to the pet store and radically wing-clipped. As a result, the vet thinks that maybe it is cumulative head injury that caused the seizure. She wasn't keen on taking blood or performing any kind of invasive examination in light of how healthy he looks and, I guess, in the hope that this may be a one off deal. In other words, she would like more clinical information before pursuing further investigations.

In a stroke of good fortune Loki pooped on the floor for the vet so she could see he has nice healthy droppings which only added to her feelings that this may not have a physical/health related trigger, particularly since he is not off his food and has no sign of ill health on examination. The vet's two theories are cumulative head injury from his severe wing clip falls or an overstimulating event. With birds she likes to start with homeopathic remedies and she has given me Arnica pills. I have been instructed to crush two pills and dissolve them in a 1/2 cup of water then administer .5ml tonight, tomorrow morning and tomorrow evening.

Reading up on Arnica it is good for swelling and bruising. With the vet's primary thought being head injury it does make some sense. I trust my vet, and I appreciate her cautious approach to treatment. She is hopeful that we will see no further seizure episodes but, of course, only time will tell. On a very positive note she also told me that it is only when seizure activity continues for in excess of 5 minutes that brain damage with long term sequelae occurs.

Has anyone used Arnica with their tiels or any birds?


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm really glad to hear this about Loki.  Thanks for the update on your precious bird!


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## rainfeather (Jan 26, 2012)

What wonderful news to hear! I'm so glad for you that Loki is going to be just fine. Good luck! Hope all continues well.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I hvae no experience with Arnica but I believe in homeopathy no matter if it is for humans or animals. I am glad Loki is doing great, hopefully no more seizures


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Thanks for update. I have no experience with Arnica but hopefully others have and can comment. I'm glad the vet visit went well.


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## cockatielfriend (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi glad your bird is fine..we had a similar episode after a visit to the vet that stressed him out..he had about 6 fits one after another..we rang our avian vet who lives 30 odd miles away . she told us to take him to a local vet and give him a shot of Diazepam which stopped them .He just slept then through the nite and was ok the next day.It is so frightening to see this happen.

Glad all is well.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey all, thanks for your concern and your support. FYI Loki is acting absolutely fine. I never was able to get the Arnica into him though. At first sight of the solution filled dropper he was okay, but hesitant. He then began to hiss. I tried feeding it to him with droplets on my finger but he would have none of it. So, my fingers are crossed that he won't seizure again.
Interestingly, unlike the experiences of many of you with your tiels, Loki loves to travel in the car and seemed to have a grand time at the vet's office. On the drive I stroked him while he chatted, whistled and snuggled in his towel. As I said in an earlier post, he was a show-off at the vet's office, practically strutting his stuff. So I'm very lucky that way as I cannot imagine how hard it would be to be taking your precious bird to the vet for treatment of some sort and then trigger a seizure.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey all, thanks for your concern and your support.  

FYI Loki is acting absolutely fine. I never was able to get the Arnica into him though. At first sight of the solution filled dropper he was okay, but hesitant. He then began to hiss. I tried feeding it to him with droplets on my finger but he would have none of it. So, my fingers are crossed that he won't seizure again.

Interestingly, unlike the experiences of many of you with your tiels, Loki loves to travel in the car and seemed to have a grand time at the vet's office. On the drive I stroked him while he chatted, whistled and snuggled in his towel. As I said in an earlier post, he was a show-off at the vet's office, practically strutting his stuff. So I'm very lucky that way as I cannot imagine how hard it would be to be taking your precious bird to the vet for treatment of some sort and then trigger a seizure.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's just as well that you couldn't get the arnica into him. Do you know exactly what kind of preparation it was? If it was homeopathic arnica it's basically just water (the effectiveness of homeopathy is a subject that draws a lot of skepticism) and any other form of arnica is likely to be toxic. 

If it was homeopathic arnica, I'd be interested in knowing what the dilution was. This is expressed as a number and a letter, for example 30X or 30C.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks tielfan. I do trust my vet but admittedly I was a bit skeptical about the Arnica. All I can tell you is what is written on the pill bottle: Arnica 200CH give 2 crushed pills in water (I was told to mix them into 1/2 cup water). Give 1/2 ml every 12 hours.

There is a more 'upscale' avian vet about 20 miles away who I will take Loki to if there is another episode. For wing clipping - which he has not needed since I brought him home since he'd been so badly shorn at that time - and other less serious events, I will continue to go local. Now that I know Loki is such an awesome traveller I won't worry about taking him the distance.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

200CH is a homeopathic measurement - see http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/detail.aspx?ID=4178 I hadn't heard of the CH designation before but the internet says it's the same as C.

200C (or CH) means that the arnica has gone through a 99:1 dilution with water 200 times. According to homeopathy theory, the healing powers of a substance increase as it is diluted more and more. If my math is right, at this point the concentration of the remedy will be 1 part arnica to 10 to the power 400 parts water - that's a 1 followed by 400 zeroes. The last molecule of arnica is expected to vanish from the mixture around the 12C point (which is very early in the game when you're doing a 200C dilution) and all that physically remains will be water. According to homeopathy theory, the remedy is effective because water has a memory, and it remembers that it used to be in contact with the arnica. 

Maybe you can tell that I have a hard time believing these ideas. But I'm actually glad that it was such a high dilution. Arnica is toxic and it's not good to ingest measurable amounts of it. I looked at the different strengths of homeopathic arnica that were available and the lowest dilution that I saw was 3X. That's a 1:1000 ratio, which is enough to have some molecules of arnica still left in the solution. I suspect that it wouldn't be enough to harm your bird but I don't know that for sure, and if homeopathic arnica is going to be used I'd rather see a really high dilution that isn't likely to contain a single molecule of arnica.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Lokilinda....you may find this link interesting: http://www.holisticbirds.com/pages/firstaid0504.htm

As to myself the only time I will use arnica is topically, and the skin must not be broken.

There is fact and fallacies to homeopathic remedies but I have used Carbo Vegetabalis twice on birds that were on deaths doorstep and it had totally revived then and turned them around. And I have used the Back flower remedies on assist hatched chicks with amazing results.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

@ tielfan ... I'm pretty much at a loss for words which is hard to do so ... okay! Your calculations are great by me.  Bottom line, it was a good thing I could not get Loki to take any of the Arnica.

@srtiel, I will review the link you have provided and appreciate all the information you toss my way.

Honestly, I'm just lovin' this forum and all the tiel passion it encompasses.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* I tried feeding it to him with droplets on my finger but he would have none of it.* 
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It is good he didn't take it, because the simple act of putting it on your finger would have rendered it useless. Absolute care must be taken when mixing and anything that is put in the container for re-dosing must be sterile otherwise the whole mix gets contaminated.

Your might pass the link to the site to your vet she/he would really enjoy it because it is devoted solely to avian/birds. http://www.holisticbirds.com


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Bottom line, it was a good thing I could not get Loki to take any of the Arnica.


It wouldn't have done any harm if you had, other than the stress of trying to get it into the bird. Skeptics agree that homeopathic preparations are harmless, since it's basically plain water in the case of liquid remedies, and plain lactose (or sometimes a different sugar) in the case of pills. The lactose could actually be a problem for people and animals who are lactose-intolerant, but the pills are small so they probably aren't delivering a huge dose of it.

Believers would say that the arnica pills could have done a lot of good. Part of homeopathy theory is that substances that are toxic at full strength become beneficial at extreme dilutions and cure the same types of problems that they would cause at full strength. There are millions of people who passionately believe in homeopathy based on their experience with it. You're free to choose the side of the fence that you like best, because we don't march in lockstep here and there's room for different opinions. 



> Honestly, I'm just lovin' this forum and all the tiel passion it encompasses.


Hooray for tiel passion!


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