# Yellow urates - help please



## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

As I was cleaning poop papers this morning I noticed that some one had yellow looking urates. When I took them out to play I examined their poop. It is Zoey who has the yellow urates. I called the vet right away but couldn't get scheduled until Monday morning. I know from doing a search and reading the poop thread that this is an indication of liver problems. Could it be something else? Should I consider this an emergency and try to find another avian vet to see her sooner? Thanks!

Zoey is six months old, eats a variety of veggies, seeds, and pellets. I cannot get her weight because she is my one bird who refuses to step on the scale but I think she is a healthy weight. Other than the urates she seems to be acting/feeling normal.

Sample one (I picked these up off another surface so the background would be white so they are a little smooshed)









Sample two


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Hi, I'm afraid I don't know enough to give an opinion. Hopefully others will be on soon who can help. If it is a liver problem, I found this link which might help give you some more info. http://www.cockatiels.org/ownersandenthusiasts/fatty-liver-disease.htm
Sending Zoey good thoughts!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks for the support, sunnysmom. I had read that article too. She doesn't have any of the symptoms other than the urates and the article says bacteria may be a possible cause so I am wondering if it is something like that since she is young, eats a varied diet, and doesn't seem overweight to me. I wish the vet could see her sooner. I am very worried


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I understand. I freaked out a few months ago because there were bubbles in Sunny's droppings and the vet I wanted to see didn't have office hours on weekends. (And of course it was a Saturday.) I ended up taking Sunny to a vet who wasn't an avian vet but had Sat. hours and it was a really bad experience. See what others say about the possible severity and seeing a vet sooner.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That looks pretty bad. I would try to have her seen sooner if you can, because a bacterial cause does seem likely, in which case it might be contagious to your other birds. Can you separate her for now?


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Yes, I can and will separate her. I will see if I can get her in somewhere else sooner. Thanks.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I hope everything's okay. But i agree get her in as soon as you can!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I can't get her in to the avian vet sooner, that is one downfall of a mobile vet. I could take her to a regular vet though. Should I wait or take her to the regular vet?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I would see if you can find a regular vet who is at least competent to do a gram stain.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, I trust the vet I take my dog to, I've used them for years. I will see if they will do that. Thanks!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor zoey. Please keep us updated. Im keeping you both in my thoughts!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It would also be a good idea to disinfect the cage, to minimize the other birds' exposure to her droppings in case she is shedding bacteria.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

At the vet now, will update.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If your vet has a lab that does avian cultures and bloodwork I would suggest you ask them to send out a culture of the poop, and also some blood if they can.

It appears to be a bacterial infection that is hitting both the kidneys and liver.

There are some things you can do to help her until you can get results back, and/or see an avian vet. Ask the vet if he has any lactulose...It is THE BEST thing for liver issues. I can detail more later. The urates were gritty also which is also an indication of the kidneys being affected from this. 

Til results are in the vet can put you on a broad-spectrum antibiotic. Baytril is the most common one. On a 10% solution the dosage is .06 per 100 grams, if your dog vet does not have a formulary to avians. He can do an injection to get her going on the meds. I can post pix's if needed.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Please do,we are hoping Krissi will be ok.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

stevechurch2222 said:


> Please do,we are hoping Krissi will be ok.


You mean Zoey! Krissi is my "sick" bird! 

We are all hoping Zoey's appointment goes well.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

I meant Zoey,thanks bj knight93,hope Krissi gets better.Thank You for the clarification.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OOH...and if you are still at the vet a multi-vitamin shot that contains Vit. A (.03)


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, missed all the posts while at the vet. He did not do any testing (not an avian vet) but said he thinks it's a systemic infection. Her eyes are red and the back of her tongue. He gave her a shot of Baytril and wants me to give her two drops a day. The avian vet appointment is Monday morning. Thanks everyone for your support. I am worried.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Hope she is ok :flowers:


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Keep us posted!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Her eyes are red and the back of her tongue.*
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OK....that sounds like a possible Vit A deficiency. If there is a bacterial infection that is affecting major organs the liver may not be optimum in functioning, and the liver is what converts and stores Vit A in the body. If the liver is impaired the bird can become deficient. The deficiency shows in many of the mucous membranes in the throat and digestive tract and tissues like the eyes.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

How do I get her more vitamin A, is this something the vet gives her or is there certain things I can feed her? Is the prognosis for this type of problem good? Thanks.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I just read the post better and understand the deficiency is from the liver problem. So once the liver is fixed this will help the defeciency? I am really upset, is this illness something that can be treated? Or does it just depend on what is causing it. Thanks!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Do you have a Whole Foods nearby? You will be looking for (see pix, click for a larger view) Carotene. It is in capsule form. Take a capsule and prick a hole in the end of it. Squeeze the capsule and it will squirt out the powder so that you can lightly dust any foods she will eat. if she loves spray millet, _lightly_ mist it with water, dust it with the Carotene, and let air dry and give it too her. Carotene is the natural form of vitamin A, thus there is not a risk of giving too much.

Also take to a pharmacist to see if they have OTC (over the counter) lactulose....it will help and be supportive of her liver:


*Lactulose (Cephulac)*

Lactulose acts as an osmosis retardant to the absorption of potential toxins from the GI tract. Used as a treatment with liver disease to decrease the load of metabolites that must be processed through the liver. What this does is reduce toxic potential of the blood ammonia due to liver dysfunction. 

It also acts as an appetite stimulant. 

It acidifies the intestinal contents.

It is also be effective in establishing a gastrointestinal environment that favors the growth of intestinal flora. This eliminates the need for lactobacillus supplementing. Can be used daily for weeks. If diarrhea is noted reduce the dosage.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, there is a whole foods on my way to work (I work tonight) so I can pick some up on my way home in the morning. I will see if I can get the lactulose too. Thanks, Susanne! I'm trying not to freak out but I'm not doing so well with that!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You have til Mon when you go to the vet to give her the tools to help her body. The Baytril is a good start to fight the infection. The Carotene intake will help and if the liver is not harmed it will convert it to Vit A which is an essential to the immune system. The lactulose will help the effects of an antibiotic (meds, even though needed can affect a 'possible compromised liver) and the bacteria...and it will help maintain a favorable intestinal flora, which can be reduced while using an antibiotic.

Whole Foods also has Brewers Yeast, which is nutritious and benefical. It can be lightly dusted on favorite foods, In addition to the listed nutrients on the can, it will help to reduce stress. 

Here is a little info I have on stress: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/stress.html


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm so thankful Susanne is a part of this board. I hope she's helping you ease your mind a little, JaimeS. I'm worried for you and Zoey!


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## mishkaroni (Jan 6, 2012)

^AMEN!!! 

Jaime and Zoey you are both in my thoughts!


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Jaime,you and Zoey are in our prayers.Hope she gets better,we're all thinking about you and Zoey.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm glad you were able to get her in today so she could get started on the antibiotic. Good thoughts coming your way!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I am a little calmer, but still worried. I will get the tools that Susanne suggested and do everything I can to help Zoey through this. Thanks everyone for your support, it really helps!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

A few questions, now that Zoey is being kept away from the others she and Baretta are screaming for each other! They are asleep now but I felt so bad. They have been together since I got them. Is there anything I can do about this?

Also, what is the best way to administer the drops of medicine? I am sure Zoey is not just going to sit still and let me put the drops in her mouth. I just don't want to traumatize her further, so any suggestions are welcome! The vet said to do it this way to make sure she gets it instead of mixing it in her water.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Here is a link that has alot of info on orally medicating: http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/birdinformation/medicatingorally.php


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks again, that was very helpful. We shall see how it goes!


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Will be sending good thoughts to Zoey. Keep us posted.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I was able to get the Carotene and the yeast and I sprinkled it on Zoey's mash today, so I am certain she got some. Unfortunately I cannot get lactulose without a prescription. I was really worried about giving Zoey her medicine today but it went way better than expected. I just had her on me and I put my hand over her back to restrain her (which she didn't like, but wasn't awful) and when she opened her beak to protest I got a couple drops in. The best part was shortly afterward she let me cuddle and scritch her which was great because she has only recently started to fully trust me and I thought forcing her meds would break that trust. I am eager for her appointment Monday and hope that the vet can figure out what the cause of her problems are and get the proper treatment. 

Again, I want to thank everyone for their help and support! I am normally very calm, even in difficult times but that was certainly not the case yesterday!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Im glad Zoe is being sweet and cooperative.  it certainly makes it easier on you!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I have been putting a couple drops of the Carotene on their veggie/grain mash and I sprinkle the yeast on then mix it all up. Is this okay for my other birds? I was thinking they should get some too just in case whatever Zoey has is contagious (I am praying not)! Everyone has orange tinted beaks!

Just wanted to make sure it's okay. Thanks.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes....it is fine for all the birds. They can not OD on either supplement.

*Everyone has orange tinted beaks!*

LOL....they may start a new tiel fashion trend


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

How are her urates looking? Baytril should be effective within about 72 hours, so if it is the right treatment, you should start to see improvement soon.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I haven't seen improvement yet. Her urates are still yellow and her droppings are still gritty looking. She is pooping more frequently though. I don't know if that is good or bad. Also, I am giving the medicine from a syringe but the vet said "two drops" I wish I had an actual measurement! Or a dropper to use. I guess I could get one. I am still very worried and can't wait for Monday to get here. And, since she is quarantined now I have one on one time with her and we are becoming more and more bonded. I just want her to be okay!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

JaimeS said:


> I haven't seen improvement yet. Her urates are still yellow and her droppings are still gritty looking. She is pooping more frequently though. I don't know if that is good or bad. Also, I am giving the medicine from a syringe but the vet said "two drops" I wish I had an actual measurement! Or a dropper to use. I guess I could get one. I am still very worried and can't wait for Monday to get here. And, since she is quarantined now I have one on one time with her and we are becoming more and more bonded. I just want her to be okay!


What is the concentration of your Baytril? I believe the standard dose of the 10% solution is .05cc twice a day.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I am not sure. I will check when I get home in the morning. I know the syringe (that came with it) seems large to me. I think it holds 30 cc.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

The box says Orbax (generic I'm guessing)? It says 30 mg/mL and has 20 mL's. The syringe holds 3 mL's. cc is the same as mL's, right? Her urates are still yellow this morning


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* and her droppings are still gritty looking. *
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*This is not good at all.* below is some info I have saved from past postings on what will help with this. If she does not get supportive care and treatment she can go into renal/kidney failure.
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Renal problems are not exclusive to diet or genetics. A simple accident where the tiel get wedged somewhere with the wings up...even for a couple of minutes can cause a chill to the kidneys...thus crystalization of the urates, and if not caught soon enough and the bird Sub-Q hydrated it can go into renal failure and die. Quick action of Sub-Q therapy can actually reverse the renal failure and save a bird. 

Clipped birds that have a draft going upwards can also suffer the same fate. Over the years I lost several birds this way (verified by necropsy's) 

Excess protein in the diet can contribute to to renal problems and failure. A breeder friend of mine added powdered protein to her handfeeding formula to beef up her babies. Within 24 hours 11 out of 12 babies went into renal failure.

Pesticides or toxins can cause renal failure. 

Typical indications of renal problems: The bird acts lethagic. The muscles feel bunched and tight. The eyes are slitted from excruciating pain. There is either blood (pinkish discoloration) in the urine, or the urates will be thin, gritty, and chalky looking. 

Initial treatment would be a medication *called allopurinol*, which a vet can prescibe. Usually you will see a dramatic improvement with the bird within a day. 

Other helpful things are adding a small amount of cranberry or cherry juice to the drinking water. This helps to break down some of the crystals formed from the uric acid. 

Hulled oats (oat groats) helps to reduce uric acid levels. 

Celery greens and seeds are good for renal problems and act as an antiseptic to disinfect the urinary tubules. 

The silk from ear corn (organically grown or a herbal extract) will sooth the damaged urinary tract, and improve urine flow. Plus corn silk is a source of potassium, Vitamin C and K. 

Plain grass, roots and all (no joke, cats/dogs will eat this if they have urinary problems) will benefit both the liver and kidneys. 

Dandelion greens helps with the liver, but it also aids the kidneys by stimulating them to remove toxins in the urine. 


The above is a few simple things to help those with renal/kidney problems. I've personally used many of the above things to help the bird and not lose it. 

*Celery:*
Celery is an excellent food that digests well with almost anything else. It contains the necessary mineral sodium, which is present in a ratio that can be easily accessed by the body. Sodium is critical, along with the mineral potassium, in managing the body's electrolyte balance.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* but the vet said "two drops" I wish I had an actual measurement!*
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Go to a drugstore and see if the pharmacist can sell/give you a 1cc syringe. You need to practice with the syring to see exactly what 2 drops are. Usually each line up from the bottom line would be 1 drop. So draw up to the second line *which is not counting the bottom line* and then slowly release the plunger on the med, and let it drip back in the bottle....counting how many drops. Measure and preactice till you know what line to use for 2 drops.

If she will allow you to feed her from a syringe, you can also put 2 drops in about 5 drops of water (I use a shot glass for this), suck it into the syringe and give it to her.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...another posting to address the liver....Whole Foods has the Dandelion and Milk Thistle extracts. They also have the Corn Silk extract for the renal/kidneys. In their bulk foods section they might have the hulled oats.
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Under normal circumstances a bird mfg. and synthesizes vitamin C in the body. When it is sick the body’s ability to do this is hindered, thus supplementing is needed. This is especially so when you have suspected hepatic (liver) problems or damage. Vitamin C is a great supplement (crush a tablet and sprinkle on food or mix a little in water) when sick and to aid the body when there are liver problems. A liver is regenerative, but it needs to be given the *tools* to help heal itself.

Some of the tools are: Vitamin C (while sick), lactulose, natural exposure to sunlight or full spectrum lighting close to the caging, and a changing of caging, such as a flight cage that encourages more movement and exercise, or some flight time daily. 

When there are liver problems the function of the liver is hindered. This also can effect vitamin A which is formed in the liver from beta carotene, thus supplementing of carotene is needed. An increase of the water soluble nutrients to the body. Brewers Yeast is an excellent source for these.

Milk thistle can be given for liver problems. Dandelion can also be given to detoxify and act as a stimulant to the liver. 1 drop of each (in extract form) to each 1/2 ounce of lactulose (some info below) can be mixed up and the bird given a drop 2 times a day. These 2 herbal extracts can also be added to the drinking water at a ratio of 1 drop to 3 ounces of water, and changed 2 times a day.

I've found that everything has a cause and effect to other body functions in our feathered friends. To help them many times we have to get to the root of the problem. Such as why your bird does have liver problem. Also how does this effect the other organs, and go from there. 

Many times giving the body the needed supplements and nutritional support (tools) can do more healing than any medication.

*Lactulose (Cephulac)*
Lactulose acts as an osmosis retardant to the absorption of potential toxins from the GI tract. Used as a treatment with liver disease to decrease the load of metabolites that must be processed through the liver. What this does is reduce toxic potential of the blood ammonia due to liver dysfunction. 

It also acts as an appetite stimulant. 

It acidifies the intestinal contents.

It is also be effective in establishing a gastrointestinal environment that favors the growth of intestinal flora. This eliminates the need for lactobacillus supplementing. Lactulose can be used daily for weeks. If diarrhea is noted reduce the dosage.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I already gave her the dose this morning. She has certainly learned that syringe = bad and today was more of a struggle. I cannot be sure how much she is getting but I don't put much in the syringe because I don't want to overdose her. The avian vet will be here in the morning. Other than the carotene, yeast, and some of the foods to help her kidneys is there anything I can do for her? 

She still seems to be feeling okay but I know birds try their best not to show distress.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, I must have been posting while you were. I can get the milk thistle and dandelion for her. I couldn't get OTC lactulose so I will see if the vet can give me some.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Also, her poop is less gritty today but urates still yellow.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK....we have been giving you alot of info. At the top of the page is the menu bar. Click on Thread Tools, and select show Printable Version, and you can print the thread and highlight the key points.

You might consider asking the vet to show you how to give shots and use the injectable Baytril. I have illustrations for that and measuring/reading the dosages.

If the vet had cultures done, it would also list other meds that will be effective also. But since she already has figured out the syringe is bad news, there is a higher risk of her struggling and aspirating her. Doing shots sounds terrifying, but I prefer to do them over oral meds.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Good idea about the printing and highlighting! And yes, shots terrify me but if it is what is best I would try. I honestly don't know if I could do it but my husband might. I am wimpy and can't even watch someone give/get a shot! But I know sometimes you just have to get over it and do it.

Again, I want to thank you and everyone for helping me with my Zoey! It is very much appreciated!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I'll post the pix's needed to do shots. When you talk to the vet show him and have him go over exact dosage and show how to hold and do them. While you talk to the vet, ask him to show you how to do Sub-Q therapy (subcutaneous, meaning under the skin) just in case the urates get grittier looking. 

Click the pixs for a larger view and print. The last pix, shows where I do the Sub-Q fluids (vet can show you and give/sell supplies) Ask him about the allopurinol too.

NOTE: In the shot illus, the area is plucked, I did this for illustration on where to inject. In real life the area would be swabbed with a cotton ball soaked in alcohol to wet and part the feathers.


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## jeme (Jan 19, 2010)

Jaime, I'm sending lots of good healing thoughts for your Zoey.

And, Susanne, I just want to thank you for being so willing to share your vast experience and knowledge with the forum.


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## MissCV (Sep 18, 2010)

Ive just read your post... sending lots of strength and hope your way! I hope Zoey gets better very soon for you.

Susanne helped me and my little guy not too long ago. We also had liver/kidney issues that were identified via blood work and some expensive visits to the vets, but was all worth it as we are almost recovered. (I cant thank Susanne enough for her great advice!)

Ive actually started feeding my tiel grass seed every day which he loves and is great for assisting with liver conditions. Simple start to a long process for recovery.

Good luck at the vets. Keep us updated.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Keeping fingers crossed here for you too! Good vibes on the way! Keep us updated.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Sending positive thoughts your way. Keep us posted. And I want to second the thanks to srtiels for all of her help to all of us.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, the avian vet left. He said she is sick with a low grade infection but says that he doesn't think it is major since she is a healthy weight (120 grams) and looks bright and is eating well. 

He said she has a "slight rattle" in her breathing. He confirmed that the back of her throat is red.

He got a stool collection and is sending it off for gram stain and culture.

He thinks that the Baytril is helping but wants her to take Tetracycline. He has to get the right dosage mixed. He said to continue the Baytril until I get the tetracycline. Oh, and he gave me a smaller syringe and said to give her .5 cc twice a day and he showed me a better way to hold her to ensure it gets in her.

He encouraged continuing to use the Carotene and yeast. I got the milk thistle and dandelion extracts this morning along with oat groats and celery.

I should have the medicine and results by Wednesday or Thursday at the latest. I will keep everyone updated! Thanks again for your support, knowledge, and well wishes. It means so much when others don't really understand.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

That sounds very good...please remember to keep an eye on your other birds and see if they begin exhibiting any symptoms. It sounds like he diagnosed her with a respiratory infection which could be contagious if it is anything like the diseases i'm familar with.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Oh yes! I am being hyper vigilant with my other birds. Even more so then normal. Sounds gross but I'm practically dissecting their poop looking for any potential problems. I am also giving them the supplements Susanne recommended just in case.

Of course he can't tell me yet if it is something contagious or not.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

If he did diagnostic testing on her he could...but he would have to decide which disease(s) she is likely to have and then testing for it. But if she tested positive for something it would then be a good idea to have the rest of your birds tested for the same thing because many birds will get a disease and not show symptoms for a long period of time. She's on tetracycline--which is used to treat respiratory tract infections, he may be targetting aspergillosis and chlamydia.

What did he say about your other birds?


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Ok, I will have them tested once he figures out what it is. I didn't know that about the tetracycline.

He checked everyone out and said they look great. He said they all feel nice and meaty lol! Everyone who needed it got nail trims.

Thanks, Bailey!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

JaimeS said:


> Oh, and he gave me a smaller syringe and said to give her .5 cc twice a day and he showed me a better way to hold her to ensure it gets in her.


.5 or .05? .5 sounds like a very large dose.

I'm glad the vet thinks you're on the right track!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*he is a healthy weight (120 grams) and looks bright and is eating well*
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You might want to check her abdomen...


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Enigma, .05 sorry!

Susanne, I asked if she is fat and he said no, she is a healthy weight. We talked about fatty liver but he doesn't think that is an issue.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

By the way, all the birds are loving the oat groats


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Jaime S keep us informed on Zeus and your other birds,hope she gets better.Glad you have a good avian vet that cares about the well being of birds.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I am feeling pretty frustrated now. Zoey saw the vet Monday and I was told results would be back by Thursday. I was also told that he would be mixing some tetracycline and I would have it by Thursday.

No word back by Thursday so I called in the afternoon and was told they would call back in the morning. Well, I just got a call from the guy who makes the appointments and he said the results are back and the vet is going to give tetracycline which should be here Monday! What?!! And to make matters worse, he couldn't tell me what the results are or if what she has is contagious!! Am I expecting too much or should I be looking for another vet?

On a positive note, Zoey is doing better. There is a lot less redness near her eyes. Her urates are still yellow but looking better every day. 

I hope he calls back today!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*And to make matters worse, he couldn't tell me what the results are or if what she has is contagious!! Am I expecting too much or should I be looking for another vet?*
--------------------------------------------------------------

If you paid him them you have a right to a copy of her complete medical file. It is always good to keep a medical file on any birds that go to a vet. It is also helpful if you change vets....the new vet can see what has been done for the bird.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Yes, I will request a copy of her records whether I decide on a different vet or not. I am just frustrated because my bird is sick and I am worried about her and it just seems like routine or casual for them. Of course I could just be too emotional since I am worried.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* I am worried about her and it just seems like routine or casual for them.*
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I can understand your worry....but think positive. I think if the tests showed something major or life threatening you might have heard from them ASAP. Thus maybe their slow response could be from reading results of a non-threatening low grade over-growth of bacteria.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

That is a much better way to look at it. He did say when he saw her he didn't think it was too bad so you are probably right  I will be happy once I know if it is contagious or not. Thanks for making me feel better Susanne! I am going to stop stressing about it now


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I think if the results came back and it was something that could be spread to your other birds he would have responded quicker and told you.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

True. Good point! I hope to get that confirmation soon though, Zoey and Baretta still call for each other. Loudly!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I did get a call back and was told it is not likely to be contagious but to keep Zoey separated still. Poor Zoey, she really wants her buddy! He still wan't able to tell me what it is, I guess I will just request records or hope to talk to the vet Monday.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Can you just go there and get the records now. Then you can scan and post any of the test results and we might be able to determine what is going on. Also if cultures were done it will list several effective antibiotics.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Unfortunately since it is a mobile vet they don't have an office to go to. Cultures were done. I don't know if you can tell, but does it sound like aspergillosis? I know Bailey mentioned that and I think the guy may have said aspergillus when he was looking at the file, but I am not certain that is what he said even after he said it a few times. Is there such a thing as a mild case?


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I feel your frustration really it must be very hard, you and Zoey are in my thoughts too


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks, Szafije! I appreciate it. I am feeling better though, I have to trust that the vet doesn't think it is too serious and just continue giving her the supplements that srtiels recommended. She is doing better!


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm sorry this has been so difficult. I would be really frustrated too with the delayed information but at least it doesn't sound like it's contagious- and like was said- I think if it was something serious that would get back to you faster. Hopefully all will be well soon!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Just wanted to post a picture of Zoey's poop today (it was the clearest of the blurry, sorry). It seems better to me, but what do you think? Also, some pictures of her just cause she's cute! I keep trying to get good pictures of her that will show her pretty pearl pattern but I'm not having luck. Of course I could use my real camera, not my phone lol!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

It is starting to look better to me. Awe. Zoey is precious looking.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks, meaggiedear! I think her poop is looking better but not completely. She is a really sweet girl! She and I have gotten really close since she has been quarantined, although it would be better if I weren't having to give her meds twice a day, poor girl


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I'm answering from my cell so it is harder to see pix's weLl. If i was at my computer i could download the pix enlarge and adjust the white bakance/lighting.

From what I can see there is a marked improvement with her droppings.

Even though the vet does not have an office, you can ask him if he can mail you the results and med records for your own personal recordkeeoing. 

If she does have aspir antibiotics will not be effective, except for inhibiting a secondary bacteria from popping up. With aspir an antifungal such as Itronidazole (sp) is commonly used and treatment usually is about 2 months.

In obtaining your records you can see what exactly has shown up in the cultures/reports. Even though it is not contagious there was initially a cause to her problem and learning where it occurred and how to prevent it would be very helpful.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

I really hope Zoey feels better soon!  Here's wishing her the best! She looks really sweet by the way!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I thought her poop looked better too! I was happy to see that. Yes, I am going to call and get the records sent to me (or even better scanned and e-mailed if that is an option) on Monday. 

Her eyes are a LOT less red but the back of her tongue is still quite red. 

How long should I continue giving her the carotene, yeast, milk thistle, and dandelion? Thanks!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I might have missed it in the previous pages of this thread, but where did you get the suggestion that it might be asper? Was it something from the lab results, or a suggestion from here? It's definitely something you'll want to follow up on, regardless.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Hey, enigma, this is the post she was referring to:



JaimeS said:


> Unfortunately since it is a mobile vet they don't have an office to go to. Cultures were done. I don't know if you can tell, but does it sound like aspergillosis? I know Bailey mentioned that and I think the guy may have said aspergillus when he was looking at the file, but I am not certain that is what he said even after he said it a few times. Is there such a thing as a mild case?


I am really not sure though, that is why I am going to get records, the guy that I talked to wasn't sure and was unable to tell me what the results said.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Her poop does look better and she is not only cute but beautiful!!!!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Ah, okay. My understanding is that aspergillosis is also hard to test for definitively. You definitely may want to try an antifungal if you're not seeing total improvement soon, though. In my experience, symptoms of bacterial infections usually clear up completely within a few days of starting antibiotics, assuming the correct antibiotic is being given.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I am getting the tetracycline Monday and can ask about an antifungal too.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

This thread has more info on aspergillosis: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=25005&highlight=respiratory+infection

I warn you, it does not have a happy ending, but I doubt your situation is the same.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

That is why I was wondering if there is such a thing as a mild case, because from what I read it is bad and Zoey actually seems to be doing a lot better and never had some of those symptoms. I was probably just wrong about what he said. I will find out for sure Monday, I need to be more assertive about getting answers.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know -- Presumably it's POSSIBLE to have a mild case of just about anything. The thing with asper seems to be that there usually just aren't signs of it until it's very, very serious. However, if Zoey had an opportunistic infection that you are now treating with the antibiotics, it's possible that could have led to asper being caught earlier than it otherwise would have been. However, that's assuming the vet DID see it in the lab work. All hypothetical, of course.  It's a good sign that she's getting better. Hold on to that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Of course, another possibility is that the vet may have mentioned it as a rule-out if the antibiotics didn't completely work. You'll definitely want to clarify that. My vet has a habit of mentioning a million horrible things it MIGHT be, and then ending with "but I think it's probably just stress" or something totally benign like that. I find in those cases I have to be very careful not to fixate on the other possibilities. Hopefully this is what happened with your vet, and Zoey will be all better with just the antibiotics.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I just read that thread, very sad  It doesn't sound like that is what Zoey has. Even though the vet said he heard a "little rattle" in her chest she isn't sneezing, no cere redness, etc.

Whatever it is, I am staying positive! She is getting better!

Thanks, enigma, you have been a great help with this too!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I tend to think that if she had asper severe enough to cause the symptoms you saw initially, she would have continued to decline instead of getting better. So I think you can feel pretty good about that.

You're doing such a great job with her. Great 'tiel mom.


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

JaimeS said:


> Her eyes are a LOT less red but the back of her tongue is still quite red.
> !


I think I recall a time when on my bird, the back of her tongue seemed too red too. But I thought it was just me over reacting again. What is this a symptom of?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

northernfog said:


> I think I recall a time when on my bird, the back of her tongue seemed too red too. But I thought it was just me over reacting again. What is this a symptom of?


It could be a symptom of many things. It's pretty much impossible to diagnose a single symptom in isolation.


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

enigma731 said:


> It could be a symptom of many things. It's pretty much impossible to diagnose a single symptom in isolation.


Alright, is it something I should keep an eye out for?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

northernfog said:


> Alright, is it something I should keep an eye out for?


It's always a good idea to make note of changes in your bird.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

The avian vet scanned and e-mailed this to me. Can anyone help me because to be honest I have no idea what it means. Thanks!










I hope this is okay to post?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...Enterbactor means bacteria within the body, More specifically the bacteria that make up the normal intestinal flora.

When there is an overgrowth of a normal bacteria or yeast it goes from friendly to pathogenic. Your report lists gram negative rods (but doesn't specify what bacteria) and also yeast. If your vet is having you give an antibiotic she *also needs to be* on an antifungal such as Nystatin or Diflucan.

Both could have originally started simply from the stress of a new home, change, etc.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Thanks, I had no idea how to read that! She is only on tetracycline so I will ask about an anti fungal. 

Her poop looks perfect today! She is also a lot more active. I haven't had her long so I just thought she was a laid back bird. I wish I had noticed sooner but she is doing good so I'm happy!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*She is only on tetracycline *

Did the vet mention to remove all sources of calcium when she is on this med? Calcium interferes with the absorption of the med....thus it is harder to maintain theraputic blood levels.

If you look at the report...everything that has SENS means that it will treat the bacteria.
I'm glad she is doing better....you are a good birdie Mama 

Also ask your vet about following up her treatments (medication and anti-fungal) with probiotics to help restore the balance of the intestinal flora.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Nope, I didn't know about the calcium. I took the cuttlebone and mineral block out of her cage.

I asked about an anti fungal and am waiting to hear back regarding that so when he calls back I will ask about Probiotics after treatment. I also need to ask how long to give the tetracycline.

And thanks, I try to be a good birdie mommy, I love these little guys


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The lab used, provided a crappy report. The reports I have seen from labs used by Avian vets here will list ALL bacteria by name and yeast showing and their levels. The levels are important to tell if a certain bacteria is higher than normal. Then the culture report tailors the meds listing for that particular bacteria. You may not have gotten the complete report...it says pg 1 of 1 but there should have been another page.

Tetracycline is a broad spectrum antibiotic. Average treatments are 7-14 days, for general bacterial overgrowths. Is the dosage and duration listed on the med jar/pfg?


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

The dosage is .1 ml 3 times a day. It does not say for how long.

I was so confused by the report because the only thing I recognized was names of meds! And I was thinking negative is good!  I thought it would list bacteria too. I actually called back and asked where the rest of the report was when I first got it and he said that was it.

Oh well, at least you were able to translate for me, I appreciate it


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

The vet sent me Fluconazole 8mg/ml to give .2ML daily. It must have been in the mail Saturday but I didn't get it until this morning and it is somewhat frozen so I plan on starting it tonight. Is this going to be okay? It looks like it has floaties but I am not sure if it is just ice crystals. Or should I wait and contact the vet in the morning to see if it is still safe to give?

It is in an IV type bag and I have to draw it out with a needle, then put it in a syringe.

Oh, and I just noticed it has an expiration date of August 2011!


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

well, it's always good to check that expiration date then, right?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The common name for this anti-fungal is Diflucan. I've begged my vet for years to get the IV diflucan because it would be the best course iof treament for birds with a systemic fungal infection, and it is in the injectable form which would be better than oral. 

Most vets use the tablets which are dissolved in water. It must be refrigerated. Once mixed it is only good for 10 days (dissolved pill form) I've not dealt with the IV and not sure if it was in dry reconstituted (sp) form and saline/fluids added to it. And not sure how effective this med is past the expiration date. a lot would have to do with if it was mixed prior to shipping or was mixed several months ago and frozen and stored. Was there a name on pkg for someone to contact/

diflucan is used for candida (yeast), aspirgilliosis, and cryptococcus. it is a systemic anti-fungal.....meaning it gets into the bloodstream. Note: it can cause regurgitation with some birds.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I didn't give it tonight because I have too many questions about it so I am going to wait to talk to the vet in the morning. I am thinking it was frozen at some point. It is not cold enough here that it would be frozen from being in the mail overnight. Also, it didn't say to refrigerate so I didn't and now I am wondering if it is still good.

Tonight when I was giving Zoey her meds (the tetracycline) I think she aspirated some of it. She wheezed with an open beak for less than a minute after I gave it but then seemed okay and was eating. I know it has to be done but I will be so glad when her treatment is over. I was begining to make progress with her taming but now she runs from me and struggles so much  I try to give her treats after we are done but she just wants to get away.

On a positive note, she is a lot more active and her poop looks good.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

JaimeS said:


> Tonight when I was giving Zoey her meds (the tetracycline) I think she aspirated some of it. She wheezed with an open beak for less than a minute after I gave it but then seemed okay and was eating.


Since she stopped so quickly, most likely she just got some in her nostrils. I've had this happen several times and it's always scary, but my birds have never had any lasting ill effects from it.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Oh good! I freaked out and was ready to rush her to the emergency clinic but then she stopped and was completely normal. I do really like the method of dropping the meds on the left side of her beak though, it is less scary.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

JaimeS said:


> Oh good! I freaked out and was ready to rush her to the emergency clinic but then she stopped and was completely normal.


I have totally had that experience. One time I honestly thought Roo was going to die in my hands because she was snorting so loudly after meds for a few seconds, but then she sneezed once and was fine. I find that even if you give the meds correctly, they can get it in their nose by shaking their heads when they don't like the taste. But this is much less serious than if they actually get it in their lungs. If you have any birds that like to shower in the shower, you might notice that they will sometimes also snort after getting water in their nostrils.


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