# New Here---Seizures



## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## Kerry78 (May 25, 2009)

Oh dear ive never heard of a Bird having a Fit before,
just a keep a close eye on him, talk to him so he knows your there so he can relax (Content) himself im sure he will improve!

did the Vet give you anything for him to take?
did she say if he should have something else to eat at all? 

Im Kerry by the way from the UK,
Welcome to the forum


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Hi, and welcome 

The topic of seizures has come up several times. Go to the top of the page, click on search, type in siezures and it should bring up some threads.


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

MaryG1959 said:


> Kerry, I feed fresh foods twice daily to all my birds so he has that in his cage currently. He's not really beeing eating much so I'm literally offering him "one of everything!" If he gets hooked on 'birdie junk food' I'll worry about weaning him off of it later.* Most important to get him to consume food.*


And that is exactly right!

I hope he goes back to his old self soon. Where I used to live the people across from us had a Budgie that had several fits and he still lived a normal Budgie life.


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Liver problems are *secondary *to another health problem. The vet really needs to find out what the primary health issue is.

What meds were prescibed?


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## birdie-beth (Jul 21, 2009)

Liver problems can indicate a severe virus or neurological symptoms, I believe. I'm no expert, however. :blink:


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Cockatiels are *not* prone to viruses. Neurological problems can be secondary problems.


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

We have some new birds (previous owner wanted us to have them) One grey male has yellow tinged wing bars & another male has 'freeze-up' siezure type thing when he gets frightened. 
They have been here only a few days....
Hoping someone here can help describe more ideas on the probable underlying causes.

The birds were on a diet of seeds (no sunflower) & bird bread daily, no direct sunlight & have been infertile for at least one year, they lived at the previous home for about 5 years. all are believed to be under 10 years old.
and one female plucks herself & mate (we are told only in breeding/nesting time)
But she is plucking daily now, so far.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Acess to real sunlight...and I mean time outside, not thru glass will help with the plucking problem and possibly help the infertility problem. GIVE them back some sunflower seed, prefferably the white stripe. They are lacking fat, and amino acids in their diet, which can also account for plumage discoloration and or inferility and plucking problems.

They are also probably stressed from the change. if you have brewers yeast give it to them on any foods they will eat. it will help replentish some lost nutrients.


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The test results don't lie...but still the underlying cause has to be found so that these problems do not occur again. Both the liver problems and infection had a cause, find the original or primary cause. 

That's good he is eating


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

So liver problems come from other health problems? what do you mean by secondary health problems? 

But.. gee that's really scary.


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes...organs such as the liver and kidneys can become affected and impaired from hypovitaminous (excess vitamins) or excess protein, metal toxicity, or protozoa or parasite problems. These are only a _*few*_ probable _*primary*_ causes. By the time tests show an organs function is impaired it is secondary to the primary cause. Treatment can not be fully sucessful if the underlying problem is not determined and corrected.

You have to remember that the liver and kidneys are organs that are the bodies _*filters,*_ and thier job is to filter out toxins and waste in the body. If there is an overload then this impairs the effeciency of these organs.

When medicating, if the dosage is too high it can affect the liver, and the first signs are the urates tinted a slight light green. Bacterial problems can affect the liver, and are shown in the urates, usually by a yellow ochre tinge to a scatterred stringy look. Dietary problems such as high protein again can be seen by looking at the urates, which will have a thin grainey look, and if discolored pink urine is seen it is the kidneys, and if urate color changes it is the liver.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_*A breeder who allowed them to breed "indiscrimantly" so possibly it is a genetic problem caused by poor breeding.

SRTiels, are you a vet per chance?*_
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No I am not a vet, just a breeder with years of experience and good vets that have taught me alot. 

I don't think the indiscrimant breeding was the cause. I have seen more *inherited/genetic* liver problems related to line-bred cockatiels. To the extreme that their offspring have partial livers and die of liver failure prior to weaning.

Most liver problems result from lack of excersise and lack of exposure to sunlight, and diet lastly. Sunlight is vital to a bird with impaired liver function.

Here is some saved info. I also have a sea salt recipe saved somwhere that is a good *maintence* suppliment to a group of birds prone to liver problems, or have limited room for excersise or sunlight...
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Under normal circumstances a bird mfg. and synthesizes vitamin C in the body. When it is sick the body’s ability to do this is hindered, thus supplementing is needed. This is *especially* so when you have suspected hepatic (liver) problems or damage. Vitamin C is a great supplement when sick and to aid the body when there are liver problems. A liver is regenerative, but it needs to be given the *tools* to help heal itself

Some of the tools are: vitamin C (while sick), lactulose, natural exposure to sunlight or full spectrum lighting close to the caging, and a changing of caging ... such as a flight cage that encourages more movement and exercise, or even flight time daily. When there are liver problems and the function of the liver is hindered this also can effect vitamin A which is formed in the liver from beta‑carotene, thus many times this supplement (beta-carotene) is needed, and also an increase of the water soluble nutrients to the body. Brewers Yeast is an excellent source for these.

Milk thistle can be given for liver problems. Dandelion can also be given to detoxify and act as a stimulant to the liver. 1 drop of each (in extract form) to each 1/2 ounce of lactulose can be mixed up and the bird given a drop 2 times a day. These 2 herbal extracts can also be added to the drinking water at a ratio of 1 drop to 3 ounces of water, and changed 2 times a day.

I've found that everything has a *cause and effect* to other body functions in our feathered friends. To help them many times we have to get to the root of the problem, such as *why* your bird does have a suspected liver problem. Also how does this effect the other organs, and go from there. Many times giving the body the needed supplements and nutritional support (tools) can do more healing than any medication.

Susanne


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Ah...I see an apparent problem. In getting these birds did you do an immediate diet conversion? That would be stress to the system, enough to cause secondary bacterial problems that can affect the liver. Stress causes increased acidity in the body and can in turn kill of benefical bacteria in the digestive tract. The older these birds are the harder an extreme diet change is going to be on them and the more stress.

Like you I have dealt with most of the health problems you listed, and learned in regards to polyoma, what is not in the books is that 75% of babies affected can be saved and are clear of the virus and not carriers. I've learned there is alot that can be done that is not in the avian med books. And the worst I have ever dealt with was Sarco, and learned alot, and discovered there are certain mutations that do have a natural immunity to it, which they avian med. books state otherwise.

My biggest learning experience from my vet was attending every necropsy to see the cause and affect internally of what went wrong, most times by my hand...which is a very sobering experience. I also have saved on the computer pix's of the insides of birds from necropsies of health related problem.

I most likely have the same books you do. The best advise I got from the first vet I went to was to invest in these books. Do you have the older copy of the Harrisons book? 1986, Clinical Avian Medicine and Surgery by Greg and Linda Harrison. I have a signed copy and an extra my husband had bought when he was breeding.

_*There are no metals in their cages or play areas which they can be poisoned from and I'm very careful about all other foods that they are fed.*_

What about their prior home? And were they housed indoors or outdoors? In tempurate climates close to oceans (again not in the med books) metal toxicity is higher because the air is saturated with salt and the birds will chew on caging for the salt and in turn ingest zinc/metal.


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

On the one with the siezures what were the blood calcium and phosphorus levels? And what mutation bird, and the background?


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

I apologize for intruding on MaryG1959 thread, I was hoping to combine the same 'symptoms' into one thread. I do think this is helpful for everyone, especially now that more info is being written on the subject by both of you, I am very glad that 
MaryG1959 has a bird that is recovering, I too have a long history of animal vet tech experience & understand that livers & kidneys only fail after a primary cause.
I am hoping MaryG1959 will enlighten us on your thoughts about the primary cause.

It is for everyone to learn from & I think evryone can/will benifit from all experiences expressed here !


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Sigh...It looks like MaryG has pulled all her posts and left us. Which is a shame because with detailed threads like this others can learn. We both obviously have hands on experiences which for me is a _*total pleasure*_ to meet someone online with such a high level of knowledge.

Her expereince has been years with difference species of birds, and the same reference manuals as I'm familiar with. Mine is from hands on expereience of a large flock (once as high as 800 tiels) and lots of babies (10,000+) since 1993 (first tiels) and 1994 (officially banded and was breeding) With the quanity of birds dealing with I found quite a few problems that were the exception to the rule, and many problems that are not fully recognized and docummented in the Avian medical books. 

As long as I have been on the internet (late 1990's) cockatiels have had seizures. All have been males. From line-bred background, it was with specific mutations such as Cinnamon, lutino, and fallows, or normals with any of those splits. The Avian Medical books have very little on hypocalcemia, and most info is in reference to African Greys.


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## MaryG1959 (Jul 28, 2009)

Rudeness and being a "know it all" often leads to people leaving public boards. You are not qualified to dispense veterinary information nor are you qualified to challenge me on the care my vet gives my animals. 

Breeding 10,000 birds in my opinion is IRRESPONSIBLE AT BEST and certainly nothing to brag about! 600 baby birds a year? How many of those still have homes? 

I trust my veterinarian and I am thankful for her.

Good Luck, I've asked that my membership be deleted and hope that the moderators respect my wishes.

I will not return to this board.


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## Tony's Tiels (May 21, 2009)

DARNIT...I was hoping to learn more from MaryG as well, it is nice to have multiple points of experience to learn from.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Mary, it would be nice if you would stay and contribute to the forum. I went back thru the TT postings and you are Mary C, and your knowledge from the pharmaceutical field and comment in regards to oxalic acid was very helpful and enlighting. And that type of info should be shared when such topics come up.

My apoligies for the delay. But since last night I have been dealing with a human medical crisis and a husband that is on my s&*^ list right now because he was in the medical field, signed out AMA because he knew it all and is now back in the hospital as I type. He has had a varicose vein that has progressively grown larger, refuses to have anyone touch it, and it got cut 2 wks ago, blood squirting out like a fountain. Checked himself out of emergency then, AMA, thinking he could deal with it better than hospitals/Dr's. The attached pix is the current state. He kept it wrapped no air circulation, and it has rotted, and 1/4 of it is attached to the bandage. He now has septicema, which is not good with a heart conidition. Our closest hospital is now transferring him to another hospital which has also given me time to race home to handfeed the babies.

In the interim, I feel compelled to defend myself, and I have devoted all my efforts over the years to improving each generation, and have had good buyers that have found good homes for many of the babies. I also sold quality breeder birds to breeders worldwide and have advised how to properly breed them, especially the rarer mutations. I have enough hands on expereince to know what the heck I post about, and do not post blindly and give blanket answers from what I have read or heard. I am also well aware that there are many problems that can plague tiels that are not in the Avian med. books, and some of the info that is available is out dated and very incomplete orvery biased.

I also can relate to the mindset of many that if you don't have a license, or if is not on the interent or in reference books that the info is of no value.

Since you had posted on TT, when I read your posting my first posting was to go thru the archives and I planned to just ignore the thread. I can be very insenative and very blunt, and my concern is totally for the birds not human emotions. We are here for the birds. And IMHO opinion, and from my own expereince you have to find out the primary cause to the ailments of your bird. Hopefully thru backtracking who the prior owners were you can find out more of the birds background, any genetics on the bird. Diet is the least of it. Housing, preventative care, Prophalatic (sp) flock treatments can have some devastating effects, especially to the next generation and their offspring.


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## Tieltale (Jun 28, 2009)

srtiels... Im sorry to hear about your husband... all best wishes for him.. Also Im sure I can speak on behalf of most of the members of TT... we appreciate you and your years of learning and knowledge and the time you take to post on the message boards and thank you 'big time' for your help to all of us..


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Apoligies for the OT 

TielTale,

Thank you!!! I am just hoping and praying he does not check out AMA (against medical advice) The leg is really bad, and needs to be taken care. He hates hospitals, and they transffered him to the other hospital which the ER is so packed there are people on carts in the hallways waiting on room. His room is across the hallway from the room that police bring in people they have arested for resisting arrest, and they are in handcuffs, and have been stun-gunned. So these people get priority ER treatment to make sure there are no ill effects from the stun gun to give the person cause to sue the city, then off to jail.

To compound problems the first hospital did not send any records of what done or test results, so the current hospital , bith nurses and Dr. are asking why they sent him here. He was on 2 antibiotics at the first hospital, Utra-sounds, and X-rays done and several other things and the current hospital dors not have any of this info. And since they do not have this info, they are drawing blood cultures, and he hadn't been off antibiotics more than 2 mores. The ultrasound showed some blood clots in the leg, and this is not being addressed. I'm beyond stressed, and he can't understand why I am upset. It kills me to see him in that condition. Then he is royally pised because I left again for the birds. But I have babies to feed. And I religiously change water 3 times a day, especially in the weaned and weaning cages, and pairs that have babies. I just can't break that habit. And they are helpless creatures that are caged and can't do it themselves.

I'm on my way back to the hospital. We've been waiting on them to find a room, since the Dr wants him admitted. So hopefully good news as to that when I get there. And hopefully the Dr can get together for a course of treatment. Since the 'lump' is a varicosity, it is a network of blood veins inside, so a cardiovasular Dr, and a plastic surgeon are supposed to be handling it and how to procede to get it removed.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Now in fairness an On topic posting.

As to seizures over the years I have had several birds that had this problem. It is a truly scary experience when you see it happen. My vet tried, but could not figure out what was going on. During this time I was new to the internet and there were others across the country that had the same problems and no resolutions. But in talking amongst ourselves it was specific to males, and it seemed certains color mutations or split to these mutations were the most suseptable. I don't know what triggers it or the why, I just learned through reading that it was something very similar to what was seen in African greys, but not documented with cockatiels. I had calphosan on hand for whenever I had a problem with hens, so the next time I had a bird with a seizure I used it. With another I had the blood drawn from a seizuring bird and it came back low levels of calcium and phosphorus. Prior to that I had thought a malabsorption problem, but in talking and communicating with others it was more like hypocalcemia seen in African greys, and the recommended treatments for those species also were applicable with the tiels. With some males the siezures can be so bad they can last for several days. In that case to get nutrients and fluids into them they have to be Sub-Q (subcutaneous, meaning under the skin) fuids and tube/gavage fed, in addition to mutivitamins, and injectable calcium.

I can only relate my expereinces and what worked, and also over the years other breeders in similar situations and what helped. Avian Medicine is still in the learning stage and there are still alot of unknowns. If we can't get answers we have to be Pro-Active and find our own solutions. 

But still the birds afflicated can be sucessfully treated, but the underlying cause is still unknown.


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