# Arthur and Poppet's Breeding Journal



## Berdnerd

Hi everyone! I'm new here. I posted on another cockatiel forum off and on over the past 8 years, but that forum (while a great forum) has shrunk over the years and I'm hoping to get more help here on this forum  First of all, sorry this is so long, I just want to make sure I cover everything!

Background:

My two cockatiels feel the need to be parents and have laid 3 eggs as of this afternoon. Arthur, the male of the pair, is 12 1/2 years old. I've had him for half of my life! Poppet, the hen, is about 2 to 2 1/2 years old. They've been together for a year and a half and are definitely in love. They have mated very frequently ever since the day we brought Poppet home after Arthur's last mate (a male) passed away, but never laid eggs until last week. 

Arthur actually does have some parenting experience because we attempted to breed him and his first mate, Michaela, 8 years ago. They laid 6 eggs together (all were fertile) and were fantastic parents until Michaela died suddenly (she flew into a wall), then Arthur tried to incubate the eggs on his own for a while but gave up. I then tried to incubate the eggs and was able to find a breeder who had a pair with an infertile clutch, and we brought the eggs to the breeder, but they never hatched. It was a very sad experience for everyone.

Neither bird will eat fresh foods unfortunately, but they get Lafeber's pellets and a high quality seed mix. We purchased Quiko bird egg food and they have a cuttle bone. Also purchased some organic seeds and a sprouter from the health food store so we can geed them germinated/sprouted seeds!

What's actually been going on: 

All 3 eggs are on the floor in the corner. Poppet has shown some interest in the eggs, but I haven't seen her try to sit on them. She seems to be kind of oblivious. Arthur definitely knows what's going on and sits on them sometimes. I know that it's normal for the parents not to sit on the eggs until they have several in the clutch and that the eggs can survive for a week without being incubated, but I'm concerned because Arthur is sitting on them off and on. He's also feeling very protective of them and does the "beak of death" thing whenever we come near. 

They don't have a nest box yet because the local pet store (we live in Alaska and there is only 1 pet store within several hundred miles) only has really tiny nest boxes. My fiance tried to build a nest box yesterday but cut out the pieces wrong and can't cut out new pieces until tomorrow.



Plan for raising the babies:

If the eggs hatch and Arthur and Poppet prove to be good parents, our plan is to let them do the raising of the babies, but take the babies out as often as is appropriate so they become tame and friendly. We don't have any handfeeding experience but will try to step in if it comes to that. I'm actually going to be home all summer (I'm a college student and summer break just started and I don't have a job this summer) except for a week and a half (4 days in the middle of July and 5 at the beginning of August), but my fiance will be home for the first 4 days. We're getting married on August 1st so the days following it will actually be our honeymoon. We'll have someone come by the house during those days. Also, my best friend will be staying with us at our house for 3 weeks in July and she has experience raising baby birds.

Plan for what to do with the babies:

If the eggs end up turning into babies that actually make it to adulthood, our rough plan is to DNA sex the babies and split up Arthur and Poppet, pairing Arthur with a male baby and Poppet with a female baby. I know it sounds mean, but we don't want them to go on making babies forever and this way they will still have companions. Arthur is not picky when it comes to his companions (Poppet is his third and he's always been perfectly happy with whoever we bring home), he just gets super depressed when he's alone. If there are more than 2 babies, we would love to keep a third baby as our own special bird, without a companion. I had the sweetest, most amazing cockatiel for several years (he was always very sickly and died, but lived longer than the vets expected) and we would be thrilled to have another bird like that. Arthur and Poppet like us fine, but are definitely more oriented towards each other and we would be so happy to have a bird all to ourselves. If there are more than 3 surviving babies, we would find them good homes.

Okay, I think I covered it all!

Questions:

1) What are the chances that Arthur is still fertile?
2) What are the chances that we'll actually end up with baby birds that make it to adulthood?
3) What can we do to help them be good parents?
4) Should we feed them Harrison's pellets instead of Lafeber for the time being? We used to feed Harrison's, but it costs $45 for a bag here in Alaska and Lafeber's is $25. 
5) What soft foods would you suggest we try giving them now, in the time before the eggs hatch? I seriously doubt that they'll actually eat the soft foods now, but I read that just exposing the food to them now will help them accept it when they have babies to feed.
6) Is the cuttlebone enough calcium for Poppet? Should I try grating it with a tiny grater over their food or something? She won't eat egg shells. If they eat the Quiko egg food I bought, will that be enough protein/calcium for her?
7) What should we do for a nest box? The pet store said they're getting a new shipment today so I'm going to call in a couple hours to ask if they got any tiel boxes. Since my fiance can't build a nest box until Thursday, should I just leave the eggs on the bottom of the cage until then?
8) I was planning to put paper towels in the bottom of the nest box and then cover the towels with Aspen shavings. Sound good?

I think that's enough questions for now. Thanks for any help anyone can offer!


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## Jenny10

I cant really comment on eggs not having any experience in that area at all, but I know a few on these forums have found using a cardboard box and just cutting the hole in it for there tiels has worked just fine and even preferred the box in comparison to a wood box, I don’t know what the dimensions are, but I am sure they will soon see this thread and reply, but a box has to be better than just sitting on the cage floor.

good luck with it all

Jenny


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## kfelton0002

For my first experience breeding birds I used a cardboard box as a nest box! Here is what I did: I cut out 12" x 12" squares out of cardboard and taped them together with paper tape, however this didn't prove to be a very good method of putting the box together so I re-did it using wood glue and it worked out fine once it all dried. I taped the box together temporarily until the wood glue dried, but the box held up fine for two clutches until I had to break up the pair. I cut out an entrance hole in the center of one of the sides of the box (not too close to the bottom because the birds will throw the eggs out) about 3-4 inches in diameter. I left the top piece of cardboard loose on all sides except for one, which I taped with paper tape to act as a hinge so I could peek in when I needed to. I mounted the box on the outside of the cage with clips and wire ties, but I ended up stacking some old nursing books and encyclopedias under it to make it more sturdy and to prevent it from falling when the birds were in the box. I have to say that this was a very desperate attempt for me, because I couldn't find a cockatiel nestbox ANYWHERE and my uncle's birds were using all of his at the time! As odd as it sounds, the birds loved this nest so much that when I tried to switch it for a brand spanking new plywood nest box after their first clutch, THEY WOULDN'T EVEN GO IN IT!! Crazy birds!! lol I had to put the old cardboard nestbox back up!!

As far as the pellets you are feeding, I am not really sure so maybe someone who has some experience with those brands can help you out there. If your birds won't seat soft foods, the pellets will be fine for them to feed their babies as long as it has all of the nutrients in it they need. You can also try offering them wheat bread and crackers because that is a soft food that ALL BIRDS tend to love! 

I have heard that male cockatiels can remain fertile and capable of producing offspring up into their teens and twenties, but it varies from bird to bird. If your bird is in good health and has been well taken care of then there is a pretty good chance he is still fertile. Once the pair start incubating the eggs (sitting 24/7) you can candle the eggs at about 5 days into gestation and see if there are any visual vessels and embryos inside. If they are clear with just the yolk and air cell visable then chances are they are infertile. To candle them simply turn off the lights in the room and hold a flashlight up the them, or take them out using tissue to hold them with that way you don't touch them with your hands and hold the flashlight up to them that way. You should be able to see what is going on inside of the egg by doing this. 

As far as helping them be good parents, all you can do to help them is to leave them be and disturb them as little as possible. If this is the hen's first clutch then she may not really know what she is doing, but she'll catch on. If the cock is experienced then she will learn from him. Offer them fresh food and water daily, a shallow dish of water to bathe in so they can maintain proper humidity for the eggs, and just leave them to it! 

Liquid calcium is available as a supplement for breeding birds and you just add it to their water. Cuttlebone is a good source of calcium and phosphorus but it may not be enough for her as laying eggs can deplete a hen's calcium stores fast. A mineral block should also be provided. 

If you don't want to attempt a nest box like the one I mentioned earlier, try putting a shallow baking dish in the bottom of the cage with plenty of pine (or aspen) shavings. This will keep the eggs from rolling around.

I hope I answered all of your questions and I wish you the best of luck with your eggs!! Hopefully there will be some more people to reply to your post with some more suggestions!!


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the replies, you two! I have good news. I called Petco (the store that didn't have a nest box on Monday) and the nice lady on the phone actually managed to scrounge one up for us! They're going to hold it for us until we can come in and get it tonight. I'm glad the birdlings will finally have a real nest box.

We are thinking of moving the bird cage. Right now it's in the living room at the base of the stairs. Arthur jumps off the eggs and runs over in attack mode if anyone walks past to use the stairs or if anyone gets up from the couch. I think maybe they would be better off in the bedroom because there isn't that much in and out there. Also, their cage is RIGHT next to my rats' cage- just a couple of inches away. We put a barrier between the cages because the rats would try to grab the tiels otherwise! Arthur and Poppet don't act scared, and their cages is very secure, but we think maybe the rats' presence will stress them out once the babies hatch.

Does moving the cage sound like a good idea? We could do it tonight at the same time that we give them the nest box. Of course we'd take the eggs out of the cage before moving it so they don't get smashed. Would this be too much change at once? Would it be better to give them the nest box to get used to for a few days, then move the cage? And when we give them the nest box, should we just put the eggs in it and then put millet in the entrance and inside to lure the birdies in?

Sorry so many questions again!


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## kfelton0002

I don't like the idea of moving the cage to another area while the birds are nesting. They may get stressed out by the new surroundings and abandon the eggs. If the birds are used to the living room and all of the traffic in there, I think they will be fine. If you think the rats may stress the birds out then maybe you should move the rats. As far as moving your tiel's cage, I probably would just leave it be and try not to aggravate them too much. Good luck!! Oh and glad to hear your birds are finally going to have a REAL nest box!!


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## Berdnerd

Oh I should have said before, the rat cage is pretty much unmovable. It's gigantic. The only way to move it upstairs would be to disassemble it, then rebuild it, which would take a couple of hours. Plus the rats are very noisy and we don't want them in our bedroom. I don't even think their cage would fit in the empty space in the bedroom! The birdies have a decent sized cage, but the rat cage is freakin' huge.

Also, the bird cage used to be upstairs until right before we got Poppet, so Arthur is accustomed to being up there at least.


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## kfelton0002

You know your birds better than me, so do what you feel you need to do. All I am telling you is that when a bird's surroundings change, they may lose their sense of security and might possibly abandon their nest. 

My uncle had a pair of cockatiels that were so sensitive that he couldn't even vaccum in the room they were in if they were nesting because they would abandon their eggs. They came from an outdoor aviary and were both parent raised, so they weren't well adjusted to life indoors. He also told me when I first started breeding cockatiels that my birds may abandon their nest because of my little Yorkie being in the house, but they didn't. 

Anyways, I'm veering off topic! lol


Birds will not attempt to raise babies if they do not feel secure, but if your birds are used to being in different parts of the house then it may be fine to move them. Use your best judgement.


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## Berdnerd

KFelton, I thought of the vacuum thing too! I just found out that my fiance's parents are going to come visit us this weekend. They're going to basically be at our apartment all weekend. If the birds are in the living room, I'm worried that the presence of two strangers will freak them out and make them abandon the nest. I'm also worried because I'm definitely going to have to vacuum the living room tomorrow and it could upset them. If the birds are upstairs, they won't have to be around strangers (though Fiance's mom has already insisted on seeing the eggs and Fiance doesn't understand why I'm worried about that) or hear the vacuum.


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## roxy culver

with the nesting box you can view the eggs pretty easily without disturbing the birds at all. arthur may be used to the upstairs but the new one isnt and it might stress her out so plan carefully before you move them. but if they've been fine with everything until now they should be ok.


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## Berdnerd

Hi again! My computer wasn't allowing me to access the site for quite a while, but now it is! Weird. Anyway, I decided to leave the birds downstairs since that was what they were used to. Arthur and Poppet abandoned the eggs after sitting on them intermittently  They would go in the nest box, but not sit on the eggs, and they were scattered around. Poppet laid a couple more on the cage floor, which I would move to the nest box. She didn't seem to know what to do with them. They had 5 eggs in all, then took a break for a while... no sitting on the eggs, nothin'.

But, then! After a week or so of a break, they figured things out!! Poppet laid 3 more eggs (most recent was this morning) IN the nest box AND they're being incubated! I candled them the day before yesterday (when there were 7 eggs), and 1 of the 2 new ones definitely had an embryo- candled again today, and the 2nd new one has one as well! I'm guessing the egg laid today does too, it's just too early to tell. So, we have 2 little babies growing for sure! 

Now I'm a little concerned. Poppet has laid 8 eggs in about 3 weeks. I'm worried her little body will get tired out. As I said earlier, 5 of the eggs are definitely duds (the first ones she laid), 2 of the eggs are developing, and 1 probably will develop. I left all of the duds in the nest box with the good eggs because I read that the duds will help keep the good eggs warm. I'm afraid that since there are so many eggs though, Poppet won't be able to keep them all warm and the ones with the babies may end up on the "periphery" while the duds are kept toasty! Should I take out 2 or 3 of the duds? But then if I do that, I'm concerned she'll lay more to replace them... What to do?


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## kfelton0002

I would take out at least two of the duds for right now because it seems that she is beginning a new clutch anyway. Cockatiels can incubate 6 eggs without problem, but when you start exceeding that number you can get eggs on the outside that don't get completely covered and the embryos may get chilled and die. I know people say not to remove eggs because this will cause the hen to lay eggs as replacements, but if your hen is already laying eggs for a second clutch then I don't see the harm. If she lays a few more eggs, just remove another dud or two and hopefully you will have a nest full of little fuzzies soon!! Good luck!! 

Oh and btw, make sure she has PLENTY of access to calcium (cuttle bones, mineral block, liquid calcium, broccoli, greens, etc.)


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the advice! I went ahead and removed 2 of the dud eggs. I also put a lot more aspen shavings in the nest box because Arthur and Poppet trampled the shavings down and the layer was pretty thin. Now it's a good 3 inches deep 

Here is Poppet with the eggs:










She wanted to stay in the nest box for the pictures. Arthur actually joined us, but of course my camera chose that time to die  I had to put the eggs into a paper towel lined bowl for just a minute while I replenished the shavings, which would have made cute pictures, too!

I candled the eggs again. The first clutch of eggs I marked 1-4 with permanent marker (I wrote small). 1-3 never even began to develop, but 4 looks like it started. I'm guessing the embryo passed away because it doesn't make sense for it to look less developed than 2 of the new eggs! I labeled the 4 new eggs A-D as I picked them up, so they aren't labeled in chronological order or anything. A and D definitely have embryos and I actually think D is the most developed. B or C (can't remember which, I was working quickly) looks like it has the beginning of an embryo, and the other one I can't tell yet but it was just laid yesterday.

Here's a picture of Arthur and Poppet from shortly after we got Poppet:










Arthur's previous mate, Luca, passed away, and I tried for 3 weeks to find him a new friend, but cockatiels are in very short supply in Fairbanks, Alaska! Our last resort was to go to Petco. None of the birds were tame except for the cute little Lutino with black gunk all over her face. It turns out she had her leg injured and had spent a lot of time at the vet office and in the back room of Petco as she recovered (the black gunk was dried on, dirty medicine). Because she'd been handled so much, she was fairly tame  She was also 50 percent off because she'd been at the store for several months already and they just wanted to get rid of her! We were about to buy her at full price when we saw the "yellow bird is 50% off" sign  That long explanation was just so you'd know why Poppet has gunk on her face in the picture. It was completely gone within a couple weeks of her moving in with Arthur because he's a good husband who groomed her.


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## roxy culver

Sounds like you've been busy over there...good luck on those eggs. I hope you get little fuzzies!!!


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## Berdnerd

I took a peek at the eggs again! Is it okay for me to look in the nest box every day? I figure it's good for them to get used to me being in there... Poppet always stays right there and sees what I'm doing. She's definitely protective and acts tough, but hasn't bitten me yet (just lunges). Also, good news is she didn't lay another egg!

I candled the eggs again tonight. First let me clarify something: I didn't label the eggs until a couple of days ago, and when I did it, I didn't think to candle them first. That means that they aren't labeled in chronological order, so to speak- They are Eggs A, B, C and D, but D is the most developed, followed by A. Egg B isn't showing signs of anything yet. Egg C, the one that I wasn't sure had an embryo or not last night, definitely has one. There are little veins and I saw the coolest thing ever... a tiny little bitty heart beat! So we have for sure 3 fertile eggs  The most recent egg (Egg B) was just laid like 3 days ago and I can't see anything in it yet. Is that normal? I read that you can see the embryo by day 5 (which is how old my little heart beat baby is), but should you be able to see anything at all at day 3?

I have one more really important question. In the other two fertile eggs (about 7 and 9 days old), it looks like only about half of the egg is developing. There are veins and redness in one half, but only a little veins in the other half. When I say "half" I mean like if you cut the egg in half so both sides were perfectly symmetrical (like if you were making deviled eggs), the embryo is developing in one of those halves. Is this normal for this stage, or did the embryos die or is something going wrong? I really hope it's normal!!!


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## srtiels

_*There are veins and redness in one half, but only a little veins in the other half.*_ 
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Yes...that is normal. The network or veiws is attached to the yolk, and stay on top, which is toward the heat source. When the egg is turned by the incubating bird the egg contents will rotate towards the body heat of the bird..


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## Berdnerd

Srtiels, thanks so much for the reply! I'm relieved to know the eggos are okay. I wonder how long until they hatch! I did some math and I think the first one has 10-14 days left if the average incubation time is 18-21 days.


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## roxy culver

Good luck!!! Isn't it exciting once you realize you have viable eggs???


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## Berdnerd

It is indeed exciting! I took another look tonight because there were some giant poops on the bottom of the cage and sure enough.... Miss Poppet laid another egg. I candled them all really quickly and Egg B, the one that looked empty last night (it was just laid a couple days ago) has a tiny little bitty beating heart and little bitty veins! How exciting! I removed one of the dud eggs so we'll still have a total of 6 eggs. Now the break down of eggs is 4 confirmed fertile, 1 too early to tell, and 1 dud. 

Something scary happened tonight. Like I said earlier in the thread, the bird cage is next to the rat cage and has been for the past 7 months without any incidents. They're a few inches apart and the bird cage is quite secure. However, Poppet was climbing the side of the cage and her wing slipped through the bars a little bit... One of the rats was able to grab a tail or wing feather and yanked it off! She's fine, thankfully- her wing didn't get pulled through or anything, she didn't even flap or squawk when it happened- I was 3 feet away on the couch and the only reason I knew something happened is the rats were flipping out and fighting over the feather.

Needless to say, tomorrow the rat cage is MOVING. We're going to move furniture and put it on the other side of the room, where one of my bunny cages is right now. The birds will now have Ned, my very sweet and harmless 1 eared rabbit as a next door neighbor. I don't know why I didn't think of just swapping the cage locations before! For tonight, I have a cardboard divider between the cages so there's no way the rats can grab any bird feathers or wings.

I have a couple of questions. First of all, I read that you can grate up a cuttle bone and put it on their food. Should I do this? Do I just use a regular cheese grater? Poppy does use her cuttle bone (she's actually gnawing on it right now), but hasn't worn it down a ton. I looked for mineral blocks at Petco but didn't see any.

And second question: Where can I find a really detailed (ideally with video!) guide to handfeeding? Since they have 4 fertile eggs and I'm willing to bet Egg E is fertile too, I'm afraid Arthur and Poppet will be overwhelmed with feeding them if they all hatch. I want to be able to help out if I have to!

And last of all, I know I shouldn't count my chickens before they hatch (literally), but if Egg E hatches and grows up, we're going to name it Wall-E  We're big Pixar fans!


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## roxy culver

Haha, I'm counting mine before they hatch too, it's ok. Youtube should have some really good instruction videos on how to hand feed I believe. I'm glad Poppet is ok, the poor girl! Good luck with all those babies!


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## Berdnerd

I moved the rat cage! The ratties are sweet girls- it's just in their nature to be very grabby. When my bunny Skyler's cage was up against theirs, I caught them trying to grab him with their little hands. He was oblivious. I have 5 rats. 3 "big girls" who are almost 2 years old (elderly) and 2 who are about 10 months old. They live separately, and it's funny because the big girls are the grabbers and very messy, while the little girls are super tiny and dainty and neat and NOT grabby.


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## roxy culver

Haha that's so cute!!!


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## Berdnerd

They are cute  I just wanted to write a little about them because I know a lot of people hate rats and I didn't want them to seem like vicious little bird killing machines. The big girls grab anything that comes near their cage- I have long hair and they'll grab my hair if I walk too close! Paper towels, bird cage cover (grr!), anything. When they're out of the cage or the cage door is closed they aren't grabby, thank goodness  Their hands are just so funny, they can use them like people. 

I put a new cage cover on the birds this afternoon since the rats have moved. My mom sewed the cutest cage cover for me for my birthday (it's blue and has yellow birds flying around on it carrying banners that say "birds rule") but I hadn't put it on the cage yet because I knew the rats would grab the fabric and shred it. I had been using a king size sheet from Wal Mart as a cage cover because it wasn't such a loss of the rats damaged it! Anyway, the new cage cover fits perfectly and is adorable. I wish I could take a picture, but my camera died  I'd better figure out what's wrong with it before the babies hatch!

Oh and for something actually specifically related to the birds, Arthur and Poppet were acting weird this afternoon. Poppet was in the nest box and Arthur was standing at the entrance, poking his head in. They were hissing! I don't know if it was both of them or just one (if one, I'm guessing it was Poppet), but weird. I'm guessing it's not normal for the mama bird to hiss at the daddy bird.


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## Berdnerd

Oh, I have another question! Considering that this is their first batch of babies, I have NO experience with handfeeding (and no way to get any in person b/c there are no tiel breeders around here0, and we have 4 confirmed fertile eggs and 1 likely fertile egg... What are the chances that I'll actually end up with a live baby bird at the end of this? Like that survives hatching, infancy, weaning, etc? I really hope we get at least 1.


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## Berdnerd

I think one of my egglets may have died  Last night when I was candling them, I was thinking the inside looked darker than the others, but thought maybe it was just because it's developing more... it looked darker than the other egg which I think was laid before it. Tonight when I candled them, I noticed a tiny little chip in the shell. Maybe a millimeter in size. Wouldn't have noticed it if not for candling! I got it all patched up with clear nail polish and toilet paper. My fiance and I actually walked the mile and a half to WalMart at 3 am to get it! When I put the egg back in the nest box, Arthur was in there, and I'm worried he may have cracked some of the eggs because the silly bird was leaping up out of the box to try to bite me and was trampling the eggs. He is very, very protective of them! He wouldn't normally bite me, it's just because he has eggs. I noticed Poppet's getting more protective of them too as time goes on.

Should I try to look at the eggs again in a couple hours (only if Arthur isn't in the box) to see if there are any cracks, or wait until tomorrow night? I don't want to disturb Arthur and Poppet too much.

Also, I think Poppet is going to lay another egg because she pooped a giant poop during the night. That always means another egg!


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## roxy culver

I think it's pretty normal for mom and dad to hiss at each other occasionally, Fuzzy did it to Cinnamon yesterday when he was doing his daddy duties and she was at the box enterance, he hissed at her. As for the egg being dead, you actually might've just saved it by patching it up. Wait a little bit and the next time you go to candle them, try to see if you can get Arthur out of the box first then get the eggs that way he doesn't lunge at you and try to trample the eggs in the process. Cinnamon is easier than Fuzzy to get out of the box so we get her out (not with our hands of course!) and then check the eggs. Going to check egg #5 tomorrow! I also have no hand-feeding experience but I'm pretty sure others on here do and can help out with any questions you may have!


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## Berdnerd

I'm so curious about that egg! I could see yellow through the shell. The egg wasn't full of yellow or anything, I could just see some yellow inside. The yolk? I guess we'll find out soon enough if it's still alive!

When I went to get the egg out to patch it, for once neither parent was in the nest box! I think Poppet had just left. The eggs were warm. Arthur came to investigate after I took the egg out. When I went to put it back, I tapped on the sides of the box and lifted the lid and he was lunging up out of the box at me! I call it "beak of death"!


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## roxy culver

Yep that's what I call it too!!! It's so funny when they do that! Guess it works to scare the other birds off lol. Fuzzy does it to everyone now! The egg I had to patch is developing quite nicely so I hope yours does too...it could've just been the yoke in there, but we shall see soon enough right?


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## Berdnerd

Good news, peeked at the eggs and they're all fine  Also glad to hear my birds aren't the only ones who get "short" with each other when they have eggs! It's interesting, Arthur has had 3 mates in his lifetime and while he was bonded to all of them, he seems to get along the best with Poppet. She's very passive. Arthur can be bossy, and Luca and Michaela would get fed up with him after a while! They had a lot of lovers quarrels  It used to get so annoying sometimes with Arthur and Luca, they'd be getting on each others nerves sitting together on a branch and be squawking at each other... I'd tell them to just sit apart if they can't handle each others company right then, but they insisted on sitting together! A lot of times their little arguments would start because Michaela or Luca would scratch Arthur's head, then put their head down to be scratched, and Arthur would still want to be scratched. So funny to see them both sitting with their heads bent towards each other


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## roxy culver

Hahaha, see Fuzzy wont go to Cinnamon for head scratches, instead he goes to Snowball, one of my other boys!!! Cinnamon can only tolerate so much from Fuzzy and then she stays away from him. She would rather sit with me than him. So all the eggs are ok? That one you thought something was wrong is actually ok? Your fixing worked???


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## Berdnerd

Roxy, I don't know yet if the patching worked, but none of the eggs are cracked or anything after Arthur's little fit 

Do you like my new signature and avatar? They're both of Little Bird, my super sweet tiel who died 4 1/2 years ago when he was 3. He was hand raised from 3 days old so was incredibly tame and outgoing. Liked everyone. I swear he loved me from the first time I held him. He was the snuggliest, sweetest little thing. He had serious health problems and actually lived longer than the vets thought he would. I miss my boy and have been thinking about him a lot lately. I have this hope that I'll be able to get these little babies to be as sweet and tame as he was. Maybe I'm biased, but I think he's just about the cutest little tiel ever, too. He was very tiny (only 60-65 g) but had really fluffy feathers and looked chubby. He had big eyes and was really short. When he was a baby, his crest was almost nonexistant, but when he grew up, he had the biggest crest I've ever seen. Looked so funny and cute on his tiny self. I never figured out exactly what he WAS- His shade of gray was somewhere between normal (like Arthur) and cinnamon (like Michaela who was a cinnamon pearl), the back of his head had speckled feathers which made me think he was possibly split to pied, but then he had ONE random pearled feather on his belly, which turned solid colored when he molted. So he was either normal grey split to pied, maybe cinnamon split to pied, maybe lightly pied (explaining the speckles and the random feather), maybe lightly pearl pied.


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## Berdnerd

The chick in Egg A (the one that I patched last night) is dead  Inside of the egg looks all dull and there's what I'm assuming is a blood ring. It's a band of darker color about 4 millimeters wide and goes all the way around the egg. I wonder if it died because of the chip or something else? I'm pretty sure I would have noticed the chip if it happened before yesterday because I've been candling them every day. I was wondering if the chick had died 2 nights ago because it looked darker than the others.

In happier news, I'm pretty sure Egg E is fertile! It was just laid 2 days ago, but when I looked verrrry closely, I could see the tiniest bit of movement, like a teensy little heart beating. I guess I'll know for sure tomorrow!


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## Berdnerd

Checked the eggos again tonight! Good news is I think Poppet is done laying eggs. She hasn't laid one since Thursday. The egg that was laid last, Egg E, is definitely fertile and has little veins and a little movin' baby in it. The other 3 fertile eggs are developing, I could see shadows moving in the eggs but I'm a little worried about one of them. It looks a little dark inside. It's probably fine though!

The oldest egg is 12 days old! Only 6-9 days left!


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## roxy culver

The weight is killing me, is it killing you? I'm sorry about the one you had to patch but at least you tried right??


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## Berdnerd

Yep, I tried! I'm pretty sure the chick was already dead when I patched the egg, I'd been wondering the night before if it had died and I don't think it had the chip in it yet.

And YES, the wait is killing me. I wish I could at least look into the future and know how many (if any) surviving babies we'll end up with. I really hope none of the chicks die  So sad


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## roxy culver

Same here, that's the one thing I'm worried about. I want everything to work out perfectly so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!!


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## tielfan

> I've been candling them every day


Be careful with egg candling. If the bulb gets hot (and most of them do) the candling should be brief to avoid overheating the egg. Also, if you're touching the eggs during the candling process you need to wash your hands with antibacterial soap first. Eggshells are porous so it's possible for bacteria to get through, and the more you touch them the higher the probability of a problem.

Personally, I wouldn't candle the eggs that often. I'm completely paranoid about accidental damage!


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## srtiels

I startied using this which has worked out well (pix's)


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the tips on the candling! I do make sure to wash my hands with antibacterial soap first. I read to use hand sanitizer too, but there are so many chemicals in it that I'm afraid of some clinging to my hands and getting in through the shells. My flashlight is this fancy shmancy one that belongs to my fiance, I checked it and it doesn't get hot  I only peek at each egg for 4-5 seconds. Now that I know they're all fertile (and no more are being laid) I'll knock it off with all the candling though, just in case! I wanted to check the eggs every day in case any of them get a crack so I can patch it up. 

Thanks for being concerned about my birds' eggs and pointing things out to me that I may not have thought of! I appreciate it!


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## Berdnerd

Oh and srtiels, that's a cool little device


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## Berdnerd

Arthur and Poppet need to have their nails trimmed! I was going to do it but then they started laying eggs and everything a month ago. The first egg is due to hatch in a few days and I'm afraid they'll scratch the baby up with their nails. Should I snag them out of the cage to trim them (which I'm sure they won't be happy about since they're both very protective and aggressive right now) or leave them alone and hope they don't scratch the babies?


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## Berdnerd

I get the feeling I'm going to be keeping all of the babies! They haven't even hatched yet and I love them already. So silly and sentimental. I can't imagine raising the little chickies and then sending them on their way  I would totally fail at being a breeder, my house would be full of birds.


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## roxy culver

Same with my sister....I would love to keep them but I just don't have the room. And besides, their babies will help pay for my hobby which is them!!! So close....


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## srtiels

* I would totally fail at being a breeder, my house would be full of birds.*
*--------------------------------------------------*
LOL...so true  In late 1993 I started with 2 given me. In 1994 bought a bunch more and was up to almost 200. By the end of 1995 I had almost 800 tiels. I bred professionally for a little over 10 years. Then I started seriously down-sizing, and now I have 18 tiels, and really apprehensive of putting nestboxes up, because i just know there will be a bunch (like all) I won't have the heart to sell.


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## Berdnerd

Wow, Susanne! Eight HUNDRED cockatiels! That is a lot of birdies! Now I know who to go to if I have any questions! Speaking of questions, what do you think about the toenail issue that I posted about on the previous page (parents have long nails and I'm afraid they'll scratch up the babies) and the separate thread I made a few days ago about us leaving for a while on our honeymoon when the chicks are still in the nest?


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## srtiels

As to the nails you can clip just the sharp tip off the nail. I'd be more inclined to think that something is panicing them while in the box and that is how the eggs are getting damaged. Under normal instances no matter how long the nails the parents do take care when with eggs and babies. 

Do you keep a night light on at night? And also don't cover the cage at night.

Lets wait and see what hatches, and it gets closer to the date of your honeymoon before thinkg/discussing what to do with the babies.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the reply, srtiels! I don't think anything is panicking them- Arthur gets hyper protective of the eggs when he's in the nest box, so I make sure not to go near the cage when he's in there since he jumps around. Only one of the eggs had a tiny chip on it, it actually hadn't occurred to me that it could be from the nails!. Do you think I should clip their nails now (which they definitely won't appreciate) or leave them alone? I don't want to freak them out to the point of abandoning the eggs. Usually they get kind of grumpy when I clip their nails, but they recover quickly. They're so protective right now though that I think it will upset them more. I miss Little Bird, he would just sit on my knee and let me clip his nails. I didn't even have to hold onto him. He liked to grab the clippers.


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## srtiels

You can wait til each bird is out of the nestbox to clip.

Another thought...do you have plenty of bedding in the box? sometimes if there is not enough bedding under the eggs, on just a very thin layer the eggs can bang together and get cracked.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I have about 3 inches of aspen shavings in the nest box. I put some in back when I gave them the nest box, then took the eggs out and filled it up with more about a week ago because I hadn't put in enough before and they trampled it down.

I will get the birdies out tonight and clip the ol' nails. I hope they forgive me! And I'll definitely wait until they're out of the nest box, last thing we need is them flailing around and breaking the eggs! 

Thanks for the advice


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## Berdnerd

Got Arthur's nails clipped! He was actually not too bitey once I got him away from the cage. He did bite me once during the clipping, but I don't blame him. Afterward he let me scratch his head and neck for a while  Poor guy has some pin feathers and I get the feeling he and Poppet aren't able to spend as much time preening each other lately!

I'll nab Poppet when she comes out of the nest box next.


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## Berdnerd

Tonight I took out the 2 dead eggs from the nest on srtiels advice. One dead egg was the one that I patched, the other was the last egg from the last clutch that I suspected had started to develop a tiny bit and then died (probably because it wasn't being incubated properly). I broke open both eggs because I was curious. Egg 4, the one from the last clutch, did indeed have the tiniest little embryo inside. Probably only 2-3 days old. The patched egg died around day 6. It had a little bitty beak and dark eyes. It was sad


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## srtiels

*It had a little bitty beak and dark eyes. It was sad* 
-------------------------------------
((((HUGS))) I know how you feel. Hopefully soon you will have nice fluffy healthy babies.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Susanne  What do you think the chances are that some of the chicks will survive? I really hope we have at least one. I'm going to name it Teddy 

I have a question too! Is it normal for the poop from the mom to be really, really big? It would make sense to me since she's spending most of her time in the nest box (Arthur goes in when she comes out) so she's holding it in. I've been finding these monster poops that I think are from her. Sorry, I know this is gross, but they're pretty watery and kind of army tank green. I want to make sure she's not sick!


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## roxy culver

I'm wandering about that too, Cinnamon has the same thing and it's really nasty. I thought after she was done laying eggs her poop would go back to normal but it hasn't yet so I'm right there with you...


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## srtiels

The large poops are normal, and will be like that as long as the birds are in the box incubating because they will hold the poop until they get out of the nest. If you notice the male will also have large poops if he has been in the box for several hours. So once the eggs are laid this could be from both birds. Once the chicks start to hatch out the poops should go back to normal.


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## Berdnerd

Srtiels, thanks for advising us again  Good to know it's normal. I thought it probably was, but just wanted to make sure they aren't sick. 

It's kind of interesting. This morning when I peeked in the cage, Arthur didn't hiss at me or do the beak of death. Maybe because I was scratching his neck last night? 

Also, today the first egg is 16 days old  Only 2-5 days left! Or maybe a tad longer!


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## roxy culver

AAAAHHHH!!!! I know I can't wait, I'm sooo excited!!! I'm glad the large poops are normal, I figured they were for a laying hen but I wasn't sure about after that. I've never noticed Fuzzy's poops because he's pretty discrete about it but Cinnamon has this thing about wanting to be near us when she's not in the nest box so she lands on us and poops everywhere!!! Must be a girl thing lol.


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## Berdnerd

We were just at the pet store to buy rat and bird food, and of course I went over to visit with the birds. When I went to see the tiels, I immediately noticed that a tiny little Lutino had something wrong with her eye. It wasn't bulging per se, but it was like the eyelid was pulled back around the bottom and the eye was reddish. Poor girl. I went and got the manager, who took her to the back. He said they would put some ointment on it and then take her to the vet if it doesn't get better. I'm glad they take good care of their birds. My Poppet came from that Petco, and she got her leg injured somehow. She spent a lot of time at the vet office (a good vet too, it's where I take my pets) and in the back room at the pet store being treated. I know she was there for at least a couple months! When she finally got better, they put her on sale for 50% off. Funny because we were going to buy her anyway (all their tiels are parent raised and she was the only one in the cage who was actually tame, thanks to all the handling she got when being treated) then saw the sign so we got $100 knocked off her price. She had a bit of trouble perching and climbing at first when we took her home, but improved over the next couple weeks and is just dandy now 

I didn't touch the cage or anything that the birds are in and washed my hands really well when I got home. Hopefully I didn't bring any illness home! Also the birds are all in fiber glass enclosures so there wasn't a lot of air movement between the tiels and me. They're well taken care of- the enclosure is cleaned every day and the birds have lots of pellets, clean water and millet. They also had a green cheek conure! I love green cheeks. They're always so funny to watch and super friendly- they'll come right up to the glass when they see someone and show off  Maybe someday!


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## Berdnerd

I thought of names for the babies  Teddy, Gilly and Lex! I think they're really cute and gender neutral. Still working on name #4 even though I know there's a good chance not all the eggs will hatch. 

Tonight I'm going to order a gram scale from Amazon.com (my mom kidnapped my old one) and tomorrow we're going to pick up lots of tiny syringes in case we need to hand feed some babies. Already have a pouch of bird formula powder and unflavored Pedialyte. I think I'm going to spend some time reading about handfeeding and watching videos on Youtube, just to be ready!


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## Berdnerd

Just got Poppet's nails clipped! It was a memorable occasion for sure. I waited until she came out of the nest box but forgot to wait for her to poop her giant poop. You can probably see where this is going. Let me just say that the carpet, couch, my arm, hair, pants, shirt, and the towel on my lap needed to be washed afterward. It was truly impressive.

I'm worried about Poppet though. I don't very often handle her body, and when I was holding her to clip her nails (she was a very good girl, by the way- it's like she never figured out she could use her beak to actually bite with), I realized that she is missing feathers on her one of her legs and a spot on her side, as well as on her belly. This isn't obvious just by looking at her. I had to blow on her belly to see the naked spot because nice feathers are covering it. On her side, her wings cover it. There aren't really any pinfeathers growing back in yet. Is there something wrong with her? Is it normal for the mama to pluck some of her feathers to put in the nestbox or something? I have noticed a few feathers in the nest box. I'd go take a look, but Arthur is on the eggs right now and I know better than to disturb him when he's doing his parental duty. Will she be okay? Is she going to pluck the babies?

Also, she has a bathing dish of water that I change every day because I know moisture is important for the eggs. I don't know if she's been using it though. I've read that birds sometimes pluck because it's too dry.


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## srtiels

The feathers grow in tracts on the body as shown in the pix. There is bare skin between the feathers. Some of these areas stay bare and other areas will grown in some down. This is how they regulate body heat. On the underside of the bird there will be a bare spot on either side of the keelbone. What you are seeing sounds like it is normal.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Srtiels. I'm pretty sure she was plucking her leg area at least. She has normal feathers on one side and is bare on the other. You can't see it unless you lift her wing. I did find one thing that said sometimes mama cockatiels pluck little feathers to put in the nest. I just went and took a peek, and there are a fair number of little feathers in the nest box, though they don't seem to be arranged in any particular fashion! Hopefully she was just trying to make the nest cozy and there's not anything wrong with her?


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## srtiels

Is she molting? If so, that could also account for feathers in the nest. I have never really had my pairs pluck feathers for the nest.

If the plucking is on the legs and in the wing pits there could be a chance that she may have giardia. You might take some fresh droppings and have the vet check them to see if they are fine. If Giardia, it can be a cause of death of chicks in the nest. Hopefully it is not, but it is best to know for sure.

Another cause of plucking in those areas is an allergic reaction to vitamins (especially synthetic) in a vitamin fortified diet. They will cause an intense itching under the skin, mainly where some of the main artieries are and the bird will pluck to releive the itch.


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## Renae

My mum's 'tiel Shiro had Giardia, I'd be definitely have tests done to find out if that's the cause.


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## Berdnerd

Ohhh, giardia. I really hope she doesn't have that! Back when Little Bird was sick and wouldn't get better, we thought he may have giardia so I remember all about it. I just went and looked it up again really quick. Isn't it very difficult to detect and the feces have to be checked within 5-10 minutes? I wouldn't be able to get a fecal sample from her to the vet office in that amount of time, and I don't feel comfortable taking her away from the nest box right now. I'll just leave her be for now. What happens, happens  Hopefully she doesn't have it and the chicks will be just fine. If she still has the naked spot after the chicks are out of the nest (or if the chicks all die), I'll most definitely take her in. I'm assuming if she does have it, the chicks are pretty much doomed. Would they already be infected through the shell? If not, I'd rather leave the chicks with their parents than pull them right after they hatch since I have 0 experience with handfeeding chicks (especially itty bitty ones) and she may not have it anyway.

I'm going to try to remain optimistic though!


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## srtiels

To be on the safe side use bottle (spring) water. Many times if you are having a rainy season the city water can be slightly contaminated with protozoa. It happens here in FL. 

IF giardia the poop would have a strong earthy odor....like swamp mud.

I normally do not like using GSE, but I have heard from alot of bird people that it can be effective in treating 'suspect' protozoa in water or in the bird. I would try a dilute form using 1 drop of GSE per 16 oz water.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I will try that! Go buy a big pack of bottles of water and put the GSE in it. Perhaps the health food store will sell GSE. I guess the bright side of the gigantic monster poop Poppet (or "Poopet" as we called her for the rest of the evening) pooped on me last night is that I was in pretty close proximity to her poop and didn't notice an odor. I'm guessing the GSE won't harm the chicks when the parents feed them?


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## srtiels

Good...if there was no odor then there is a good chance that there might not be a giardia problem. 

Once the babies hatch leave the bedding alone. I never change out the bedding because I use it as a guage to monitor the chbicks health. The chicks poop is going to be pale and sticky, and they scoot backwards towards the walls of the box to poop. The bedding should stay dry or just *slightly damp.* If the bedding gets soggy within days it could be an alert to a problem. If there is NO odor when opening the nestbox door them it could be simply the parents feeding alot of fluids. If it has oder it could be the early signs of a possible yeast (sour vinegary smell) or bacterial (poop will be more of a bright green) or giradia (earthy smell) problem. As mentioned the poop will be claylike. if the baby is having a problem digesting there may be whole seed or ****** of food in the droppings. A good remedy is to add probiotics or lactobacillius (sp) to anything the parents will eat or drink.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for that poop advice, Susanne! Great to know what it should look and smell like. Should I expect any smell at all? You said no smell could mean they're being fed lots of liquid, is that bad? I had been planning to clean the nest box every day!

I bought the grape seed extract and bottled water. My bunny Ned went with me to the health food store  I have a dish of water in the cage for them to take baths in (since I read they need to get their feathers wet) but I don't think they're using it. I'm thinking of giving them a shower with the spray bottle. Should I put the GSE in the spray bottle water and the dish of water? I figure there's a good chance they're actually drinking from the dish of water! They probably think it's a giant water bowl.


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## roxy culver

Only Cinnamon has been taking regular baths, Fuzzy hasn't. I hope everything works out ok!!!


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## Berdnerd

AHHHHHHHHH!!!!! The first egg is hatching!!!! There are tiny pip marks and I held it to my ear and could hear him chirping! Go baby GO!!!!!!


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## roxy culver

YAY!!! Baby #1 on the way!!!


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## Berdnerd

I'm sitting on the couch about 4 feet away from the nest box, and every once in a while I can hear the faintest little chirps! So exciting! The pip marks on the egg were very light, like he was just getting started. Should I expect him to be hatched around this time tomorrow then? I read that it can take 24-36 hours for a cockatiel to hatch and read up about how to assist if necessary. Hopefully it won't come to that! I have my tiny syringes and Pedialyte ready in case he gets dehydrated... and my pouch of baby bird formula.


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## roxy culver

He should be hatched by tomorrow...good luck!!! Mine are slow I'm thinking, the parents really didn't start sitting on the eggs until the 2nd one was laid so I think I probably have another two days or so to go....the wait is killing me! I can't wait to see pictures of your little fuzz ball!!!


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## Berdnerd

I was surprised he's getting started already! Today I thought was day 18, but maybe it's a little later than that. Also I just realized that the fantastic article I read about assisting cockatiel hatch was written by srtiels  Love your article, Susanne! Roxy, if you haven't read it, here it is: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/assist-hatches.html

I definitely hope it doesn't come to that, but at least I know what to do if it does. I didn't mark the egg where the pip marks are (there are 2). Debating whether or not I should mark it really quick? I also didn't get a good look at the egg with the flashlight because I put it back when I heard it chirp!

If he comes out tomorrow, he will be born on the summer solstice: the day with the most amount of sun in the entire year  It's always celebrated here in Alaska. His birthday will have sun the entire 24 hours!! (just heard another tiny chirp! The parents chirp quietly in the nest box sometimes too, but I know it's him because it's even quieter!)

I have an important question: should I spray Arthur and Poppet with water when they come out of the nest? I did last night. Not so they were drenched, just a little. I have a little dish of water for them on the bottom of the cage but I don't think they're going in it. I know the eggs need humidity to hatch but it's bad if they get too much moisture. It's very dry in Fairbanks, but it rained today so maybe it's not TOO dry. What to do, what to do!


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## srtiels

It sounds like you will have a little chick soon.

Another thing you can do to raise the humidity in the room is to run a humidifier several days prior to hatching. Average hatch times are 18 days. They can hatch earlier if the room is too warm, or be slower hatching if the room is cool.


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## Berdnerd

Good idea with the humidifier! We have one that's shaped like a penguin  I went ahead and sprayed the parents with water one time each yesterday (and Friday). Poppet actually figured out that she liked it yesterday and was lifting her wings! I didn't get them too wet though.

No little chicky yet as of right now, though I'm not surprised since I'm guessing it's been about 18 hours? About 16 hours since I first discovered the chick was beginning to pip. I just woke up and went to check on them. The egg looks a little more pipped than it was when I went to bed 4 hours ago. I tried to stand there and hear the chick chirp without lifting the egg, and I stood there for about 30 seconds but didn't hear anything. Hopefully he was just napping!

EDIT: I just read Roxy's thread. Do I need to worry because so far the egg has always been under Poppet when I go to check? Maybe they're pushing him to the side a couple times a day when I don't see, but they seem pretty fanatical about sitting on their eggs. I've checked on the egg I think 5 times since yesterday afternoon (all but 2 were just opening the nest box lid and peeking) and Miss Poppet was on the eggs each time.


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## Berdnerd

Oh I can hear him chirping lots all the way from the couch! I went and put my ear by the nest box to make sure it's him and not Poppet (much quieter than Poppet) and it's definitely him, unless she learned to chirp very quietly and sound just like a chick in an egg.


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## roxy culver

I can't wait to see pictures!!! I know with the first one that was laid for mine I can't even see inside the egg anymore...congrats!!!


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## Berdnerd

HE'S HERE!!! Oh my gosh! The baby hatched! I've heard him chirping tons, I checked 2 hours ago and there weren't even holes in the egg, I thought the chirping was him drawing in his yolk sack! I went to peek in the box and the shell was off to the side, and there he was peeping out from under Mama!! It turns out the chirping was her feeding him, I got to see her feed him  I got pictures, too! They're uploading now... I have to admit, I cried when I saw him  I'm so happy!


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## Berdnerd

Here are pictures of our little baby! I'm so relieved he hatched fine and Poppet is feeding him  I can actually hear her feeding him right now! Is it normal for them to chirp while they're actually being fed or is he not getting any food? I will check again in a few hours to see if his crop is full. This is such a great day, yay for baby bird! Now I hope the other 3 go as smoothly as this one, the next one should be in 4 days


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## srtiels

Congratulations on the little yellow fuzzball


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Susanne  Arthur and Poppet have both been in the nest box with the baby for the past hour or so. Before the egg hatched, only one of them would be in there at a time. I love hearing the baby chirp! I think he's being fed right now. He gets all chirpy for a while, then quiet- I'm assuming for nap time! 

I so wonder what Arthur and Poppet think of the baby! Were they surprised when it hatched, or did they know there were babies in the egg? How do they know what to do? It's amazing!


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## roxy culver

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! He's here! So what is this one's name???

He is soooo tiny!!! I'm so glad he hatched ok!


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## Renae

Aw, how wonderful! congrats.


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## Berdnerd

I'm glad he hatched okay, too! We just took another peek at him (hadn't since I found him this afternoon), and his crop is full  Arthur and Poppet spent the afternoon together in the nest box with him. She finally came out to eat and poop about half an hour ago, she was in there for like 10 hours! Didn't want to leave her baby! Arthur took good care of him while she was gone though.

I decided to name him Kieran. It's a slightly more phonetic spelling variation of Kiran, which is Hindi/Sanskrit and means "sunbeam" or "dust." Perfect for our little solstice baby and since cockatiels are so dusty! It's also a boy or girl name so will work regardless of his sex. Yay!

Here are pictures of the happy family- Arthur had to come and investigate when he saw us in the nest box! In the first picture, Kieran is under Poppet's tail and you can see some of his fluff between the base of her tail and Arthur's face.


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## Berdnerd

I'm a bit worried about the chick! Is it normal for a chick not to chirp as much the second day? He was quite chirpy yesterday afternoon. Maybe because he just hatched? Arthur and Poppet are still being very attentive parents. They're very protective of him. I just checked on him, and his little crop is full and there are tiny little baby bird poops in the nest box. He actually pooped on me when I was holding him for those few seconds! For once in my life I was happy to be pooped on because I could get a picture  










Does it look like healthy baby bird poop? As you can see, it's kinda green. Parents are being fed Lafeber pellets and a seed blend. The texture of the poop was pretty similar to adult bird poop, maybe a bit softer. You can see the urates and the actual poop.


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## Berdnerd

Exciting news! The next egg is hatching! I hadn't candled them in a few days and was worried some of the remaining 3 had died. Wanted to remove them in case one broke and made the chick sick. Imagine my surprise to find a chirping egg! He's done a pretty good job of pipping so far. I could feel him moving around in the egg  I'd imagine tomorrow we will have a new baby! He's quite the overachiever too, the egg was laid on either June 6th and he's already bustin' out! 

The other 2 eggs are still alive too 

I'm still a little worried about Kieran's poop, could someone take a look at that picture and tell me if it looks normal? Thanks!

Here's the egg that's in the process of hatching. 










And I got a quick video of the egg- you can hear him chirping away inside!



And last of all, here's little Kieran with Poppet earlier. 



All excitement aside, I'm still a little worried about Kieran's poop, could someone take a look at that picture I posted earlier and tell me if it looks normal? Thanks!


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## srtiels

The little chick that hatched first should be quiet now, except when it is being fed. If it was constantly chirping then I'd be concerned. From the looks of the poop it is also digesting the food fine. The darker green is because some of the color is coming from the yolk that it had absorbed prior to hatch, and being digested. The first few poops can be almost a forrest green look.


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## roxy culver

Congrats on baby #2!!!


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks so much for posting! You've eased my mind, both about the chirping and the poop. Great to know. If Arthur and Poppet DO have giardia or some other bad thing, how long do you think it will be until we know based on the chicks' health? I've been putting the GSE in their water and am fanatical about changing their water all the time.


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## srtiels

If you are doing GSE only do it 5-7 days MAX. Short term it will not affect the parents intestinal flora/immune system, but longer it can change the PH in the GI tract that can trigger other problems.

Just keep an eye on the bedding as the chicks hatch out. Once you have 2-3+ chicks in the nest they will be doing alot of pooping. The edges of the bedding will get yucky, BUT the bedding should NOT get soggy or have a foul earthy or vinergary odor. This is one reason why I do not mess with the bedding because it is also another useful diagnostic to chicks health.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the tip on the GSE! I think we're on day 3? I'll have to go back and look. Should I never change the bedding, or just wait a while to do it? What SHOULD the bedding smell like? I'd imagine that lots of poop would have some odor to it.


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## srtiels

I would leave the bedding alone for the first week or so to monitor it. What I do rather than remove bedding is to sprinkle fresh bedding over the old bedding. Sometimes at 10 days old is when problems can be most apparent, and if a health problem sudden deaths prior to 10 days old. Once you get past the 10 day age, and bedding looks fairly dry or just moist, with the exception of the edges where the poop is building up that is a good sign that all is well with the chicks.

The only thing I do then is peek in the box several times a day to make sure they are being fed. If you have good feeding parents as the chick grows the crop will be packed all the time...to the point of looking over stuffed. This is normal. In this case you start to watch the crop from a week or so in age. The crop will look huge, and the skin semi-transparent and you can see the food thru the skin. When the crop is touched with a fingertip it should be taunt, not hard and tight. If the crop is hard and tight feeling then the chick is not getting enough fluids and sometimes assist feeding a very dilute formula will add fluids to the crop and hydrate the chick. This helps prevent stunting and other digestive problems later on.


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## Berdnerd

So, Susanne, the crop should look full all the time? I read that when handfeeding, the crop needs to empty once every 24 hours (which I always interpreted as meaning the crop needs to be completely empty once). Is it not the same with parent fed babies? Do the parents feed consistently through the day and night or do they tend to feed more in the day? I've noticed that our little chick seems to be fed more during the day. Do you have a picture anywhere of a tiny chick with a full crop? Sorry I'm so needy! You're great about answering all my questions  I love your website. Somehow I had only seen the assist hatch article! I've spent the past hour reading different articles and feel both terrified and enlightened. So much can go wrong!


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## srtiels

Here is a pix of a cockatiel chick growing from hatch..: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html I did daily pix in the AM (parent fed), so it shows some food in the crop, which all during the day they added food and sometimes the crop was a s big as the chick. 

When handfeeding I let them empty out between EACH feeeding, rather than once a day. In doing this it greatly reduces the risks of problems. If a person is just letting a crop empty once a day, which is from the overnight feeding it is easy to miss a problem that is starting. If a chick is being fed 10% of body weigh (and NEVER more than 10cc) it should empty fine bewteen each feeding. I usually pull them between 2.5 to 3 weeks of age. Handfeed 3X a day, and at 3 weeks of age, 8cc morning, 6cc lunch, and 8cc night MAX. I found that at this age the parents have already reduced the amount fed, and that less food tend to be better used in weight gain, rather than too much food, which the body has to over work and use body reserves which can take away from good muscle growth.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I found that page (so cute!) but have a hard time telling how full the crop is. Now I'm all worried that the chick isn't being fed enough. I haven't heard baby bird feeding sounds in at least a couple hours... I peeked in on him and his crop has food in it, but it certainly isn't gigantic. It's 6:30 am here so if they don't feed as much during the night, maybe that's why? When you see the video of the chick (which I took at about 9-10 pm last night, so about 9 hours ago), does his crop look ok? 

I'm such a worry wart. I hope he'll be alright!


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## Berdnerd

We have baby #2! I went to check on Kieran and found a wet little Teddy, fresh from the shell  He is a cutie! Both parents were in the nest box when he hatched. 

My enthusiasm is dampened by my concern for the first chick. His crop is pretty much empty now. I took both checks out of the nest box very briefly to photograph them together so you can see the size difference. Kieran pooped on me again. It looked like normal poop. Keeping in mind that Kieran hatched at about 11 am on Monday, does he look like he's growing fast enough? I'm worried too because he didn't chirp during the mini photo session. Teddy chirped lots. Kieran shivered  










and in this one you can kind of see his crop (keep in mind that he's closer to the camera than Teddy so may look bigger than he actually is):










Here he is again:










And newly hatched Teddy, it looks like the parents fed him a little water already:










I've been hearing Poppet feed a chick pretty frequently over the past 15 minutes, but I don't know which chick she's feeding.

What do you think? Worry, worry...


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## Berdnerd

Okay. HUGE sigh of relief. I heard a lot of "baby bird being fed" sounds, so I went to check on Kieran. He has a nice full crop now. Thank goodness! My question still stands, though- is it safe for his crop to be almost completely empty sometimes, and does his size look okay? Thanks so much!

It's 9:30 in the morning and I haven't been to bed yet. First was excitement, then worry. Now I feel like I can sleep for a bit. I think we're going to go pick up a gram scale first though.


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## srtiels

So far both chicks look great. Most of the first days of feedings will be a diluted food or fluids, which digest very quickly. This is done because the first 24 hours most of the nutrients the chick is getting is from the yolk absorbed and being digested. Around 3-4 days of age the crop should be holding more food. But yes, by morning the crop may be almost empty.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks so much, Susanne! Can you tell I'm a huge worrier? I just don't want anything bad to happen to my little babies. 

I think Arthur may not be feeding the chicks at all. I noticed that I don't seem to hear chick feeding noises when he is in the nestbox with them alone. When he's in there with Poppet, of course it's hard to tell! They spend a lot of time in the nestbox together. So hopefully if he isn't helping feed them, he'll begin soon!

Susanne, I would be a nervous wreck if you weren't around!


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## Berdnerd

I just checked on the chickies for the first time since this morning. Both babies are fed! Woohoo! I picked up Teddy to get a better look at his crop (since it's hard to tell from above and his crop is little) and he pooped on me. The poop was pretty gooey, I'm guessing that's normal since he hatched like 9 hours ago. There were whole millet seeds in his poop. Is this okay? I gave them a little piece of millet last night. Should I lay off the millet for the time being? I don't usually give the birds excessive amounts, but they've been getting it more since they laid eggs because it's high calorie.

Arthur and Poppet are notoriously picky when it comes to food (they'll only eat pellets and seeds), but I've been giving them whole wheat bread the past several days. They've been eating it, too! I just gave them some bread moistened in water. Hopefully they'll eat that. I plan to remove it in a hour and a half and replace it with some runny oatmeal.


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## srtiels

LOL...I was nervous like that with my first pair. They were normal greys. There were 3 babies and one feathered out odd and speckly. I thought it had a feather problem and went to a petshop asking what was wrong with it. I didn't have internet or know there were other mutations aside from greys. They told me it was a pearl and the feathers were normal 

You'll just have to keep an eye on the babies crops. Check in the box a couple times a day. After 24 hrs from hatch their should be a noticable budgle in the base of the crop. Prior to that they are only going to do a little fluids as needed.


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## Berdnerd

Ha, the pearl must have been a surprise! A very cute surprise once you realized it was okay! Good news is Arthur is feeding the chicks  Like I said before, I was wondering because I hadn't heard the chicks being fed while Arthur was alone with them, but Poppet is out of the nest box eating right now and I can hear Arthur feeding them. The parents are noticeable more hungry than they usually are! 

I'm thinking of removing the millet. There's still millet leftover from last night and Miss Poppet is chowing down on it instead of pellets and bread. I'm guessing it's okay for the babies to have millet seeds in their poop since their digestive systems aren't strong enough to digest the seeds yet, but it doesn't seem like they'd get much nutrients from it! I know their yolks are still providing nutrition to them, but still.


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## Jenny10

Congratulations on your babies, they look great.

Jenny


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Jenny  I can't wait to watch the little guys grow up! And I'm excited for the next egg to hatch, I figure it will be on Friday morning. Kieran and Teddy are both doing great, they have full crops. Kieran's is much fuller than Teddy's, of course.


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## srtiels

Try Honey wheat bread, and don't soak it. When wet it can rapidly build up bacteria. I've had several deaths from whole wheat bread. Meaning it can get caught in the parents throat because it is doughier and they choke to death. I've learned that honey wheat bread doesn't do this. It is easier for them to regurgitate.

When my pairs have babies I give 1/4 piece of bread 3X a day. Offering green leafy vegs. like romaine lettece is also a favorite when they have babies.

Opps!...I missed the part about seeing some whole seed in the babies poop. Go to the drug store and get some acidopholus capsupsules. Mix 1 capsule per quart of water and use this for the parents drinking water. This will help get the intestinal flora back up with the babies so that they digest the food better.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, is Teddy sick because of the seed in the poop thing? He hatched from his egg only a few hours before he pooped the seedy poop (it was like 9 hours after he hatched), I kind of figured such a new bird wouldn't be capable of digesting something like that. Do I need to worry about him? I took out the millet. Also I just checked my loaf of bread and it's Honey Wheat Berry.


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## srtiels

He should not be passing any whole seed at all. What you might want to do is mix up a small amount of formula with PLAIN yogurt added (about 50/50 yogurt to formula) and supplement feed him several times a day.

Since the little ones are so small, all syringe tips look huge nest to their beaks. Just place the syringe tip next to the opening of the beak and slowly release some food, watching the tongue as it moves the food to the throat to swallow. Keep a good hold on it's head because it will try to bob up and down as it eats.


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## Berdnerd

I feel too nervous to try feeding him! What if I kill him? I've read all about handfeeding and so much can go wrong. I'd feel more comfortable doing the acidophillus capsules. Can I just mix half a capsule into a 16 oz bottle of water? Should I keep the water in the fridge or sitting out? If it's in the fridge, should I let it come to room temperature before putting it in the bowl? And, last of all, how long can I keep the bottle of water- 1 day? Oh one last thing: should I stop with the GSE if I do the acidophillus?

So many questions. I'm really eager to check on the chicks, but Arthur's in the nest box.

Update: Okay, I was able to check out the chicks. Both have nice looking crops. Both babies pooped on my hand and it was the color of the pellets I feed the parents (kind of light brown). Kieran's poop looked good, it looked like a tiny adult poop. Teddy's poop was a little wetter and it had a couple millet seeds in it. I hope he'll be okay!! I'll go get the acidophillus as soon as the health food store opens. Raising babies is nerve wracking. I can't wait until they're big enough to be mostly out of danger.


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## srtiels

Go ahead and stopo the GSE. Quite possibly that might be the cause because it can remove the good intestinal flora. Yes you can mix smaller quanities of the acidopholis in water. Refrigerate, and in order for the parents to have fresh water all the time, change out the water 3X a day. 

See how the dropping look in a day. I can understand your nervousness of trying to handfeed a tiny chick because they are so small, and if care is not taken in watching them swallow before giving them more they can be aspirated.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks for the quick reply! It looks like you replied right when I was updating my previous post about Teddy pooping more seed poop on me. I can't wait until the health food store opens! I'm so glad it's right next door.

So is light brown poop appropriate from babies who are being fed beige pellets and honey wheat bread? And is Teddy's slightly wetter poop okay? I thought both babies looked good, aside from the poop issue with Teddy. Their crops were full, Kieran's fuller since he's older.


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## Berdnerd

Srtiels, do you think acidophillus or Benebac powder would be better? I can get either one this morning.


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## srtiels

Berdnerd said:


> Srtiels, do you think acidophillus or Benebac powder would be better? I can get either one this morning.


 ---------------------------

Yes...either one is fine. If the healthfood store is close by also pick up a cannister of Brewers Yeast (granules) You can sprinkle it on anything the parents are eating. 

It helps reduce the stress levels of the parents and it has alot of nutrients, especially the water soluble vitamins (B's) which can be lost when they poop watery poop. And it is rich in amino acids which will herlp with nutient and protien assimulation in the digestive tract.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, do you know how much Benebac to add to the water? I don't know if Petco will have the powdered form of bird Benebac. I'm guessing Benebac would probably be a better choice than acidophillus since it has more strains of good bacteria in it. I'm asking the amount of Benebac to use now because you may not be on your computer when we get home and once again I didn't sleep last night. Don't know how long I'll be able to stay awake once we get back from the store!


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## srtiels

I've never used Benebac, so I don't know.


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## liltweets

How exciting! Your babies are so cute.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Debbie! I think so too 

I ended up getting acidophilus. I called Petco and they said they had powdered bird Benebac, but I didn't know how much to put in their water and was afraid to overdose them or something so I went with the acidophilus. The acidophilus and brewer's yeast were $40! I tasted the brewer's yeast and it's actually pretty good  Hopefully Arthur and Poppet will eat it.

The babies look pretty good to me today. I can tell they're growing. They have full crops. Kieran obliged me by pooping on me (why do they poop when you pick them up?), but Teddy wouldn't. The one time in my life I want to be pooped on! I will take them out later tonight and hopefully Teddy will poop on me and I can find out if he's digesting better. At the moment, the parents are not being fed seeds so maybe I won't even be able to tell! Should I put seeds back in their food bowl so I can tell if Teddy is digesting properly?

Here is a video and pictures of the babies. They were falling asleep in the video. Teddy is on the left, Kieran is on the right. How do they look for their ages? Kieran hatched Monday morning, Teddy hatched Wednesday morning. I can tell they're growing! Kieran seems so big.


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## liltweets

I don't think you can overdose on probiotics? Susanne would know. 

I haven't read through the entire thread so I don't know if you've said...
are you going to keep the babies? Loved the video, so precious.


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## Berdnerd

Well well well, guess who decided to join the party?!










Meet Neeja! I heard tiny chirps from the nest box in addition to feeding chirps, and thought maybe the next egg was about to hatch since it's due tomorrow. Kieran and Teddy were so loud in their eggs that I could hear them outside the nest box! So I took a peek, spied the top of an egg shell and knew he'd hatched because I removed all the other shells  Neeja is a character in my fiance's favorite book (a Star Wars book). I let him name the baby and that's what he picked. Apparently there's a character in the book named Kieran, too.

I hope Arthur and Poppet can handle 3 chicks! And I hope he'll be healthy and Teddy is going to be okay.


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## roxy culver

Well they're all adorable!!! Congratulations!!!


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## srtiels

*I tasted the brewer's yeast and it's actually pretty good  Hopefully Arthur and Poppet will eat it.*
*---------------------------------------*

LOL...it is good for people too  When I feel sytressed or tired I will eat a tsp. of it. It is great sprinkled on salads, or eggs, or adds a nice nutty taste to soups.

Congratulations on the 3rd hatch. The others are looking great.


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## Berdnerd

Yay for baby birds! I got a picture of all 3 chickies with the last egg. Arthur and Poppet were BOTH out of the nest for the first time ever for a couple minutes last night- they were both eating and came right back, so I'm not too worried. In any case, I seized the opportunity to grab all of their children so I could check them out and get a picture. Now that Neeja is fluffy, you can still tell which baby is which. Amazing how 1 day makes a difference in size! Amazingly enough, no one pooped on me when I had them out of the nest. I want to check Teddy's poop, and the new one's. How do I check their poop when they won't poop out of the box? I can't tell whose droppings they are when they're in the box. 

Also, can I feed the parents runny cooked steel cut oatmeal? The texture is chewier than regular oatmeal. I have some regular oatmeal too so can cook that for them if it would be better.


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## Berdnerd

Alright, babies just had their photo session for the day! I have a couple of concerns that I'll write above each picture.

Babies with the last egg last night:









Kieran. Hatched Monday. Does his eye look okay or a little scaly?









All 3 babies- from left to right, Neeja (1 day), Teddy (2 days), Kieran (4 days)









I gently wiped the dried food off of their faces, there was a little bit. I tried to look in their mouths and their mouths look good and butts are clean. I'm a bit concerned because one of Teddy's nostrils seems to be slightly covered. I tried to get it off but didn't want to hurt him. I don't have a picture of that. Anything I can do about it? Will he suffocate?

And the obligatory poop shots. Sorry! The first poop was definitely from Kieran (he pooped on my hand and it fell on the paper towel), I don't know who the second is from, and I think the third is from Teddy. Do the poops look okay? I know it's gross, but the last picture is Kieran's poop smeared out so you can see the contents. All 3 poops looked like that. I feel like such a weirdo. I haven't fed the parents seeds since early yesterday morning and there aren't seeds in the poop, but I don't know if it's because they're digesting properly or just because they haven't been fed any. Should I give the parents millet again to see what happens?














































Thanks so much!


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## srtiels

The poops look fine. They are old enough to handle seed, so you might want to start back with spray millet first.

The eyes are normal. And they will get poop on the nostrils when they boough their head down. Just gently pick it off it it builds up on the beak/face.

They all look like they are coming along nicely.


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## Berdnerd

Srtiels, thanks for the reply! Don't know what I'd do without you. In Bird News Today, the fourth egg is pipping and I hear little chirpies  All the babies look well fed. Kieran's feathers are starting to show up on his wings! They weren't there a mere 12 hours ago. He's also started to make a sound that sounds a little bit like the static sound that older hungry babies make. He doesn't do it all the time, but he did it when I had him out.


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## liltweets

They do grow fast, wow! I'm looking forward to watching them grow. They're just precious!


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## roxy culver

Go baby #4 GO!!!!


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## Jynxstorm

They are soo cute


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## Berdnerd

He's still working on hatching! I can hear him chirping and when I hold the egg to my ear, I can hear him pecking at the shell 

Kieran is definitely mastering his hungry baby cockatiel static sound. He did it as soon as I opened the lid of the nest box!


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## Berdnerd

The last egg is still working on hatching! Come on, little guy! It's been approximately 13 hours since I noticed he was starting to pip, I don't know how long he was doing it before then. He's still chirping away. I candled his egg (which I hadn't done with the other eggs when they were pipping) and can see the tilted air cell and him in the air cell. Too cool! When he chirps, I can feel the egg move, hear him chirp, AND see his beak/head move  I hope he'll grace us with his presence soon so I can stop worrying about him hatching and start to worry about him growing properly! 

Also, I think Kieran is learning how to hiss! When I was messing around with him, it sounded like he was hissing at me in addition to making the "feed me" baby bird sound. I'm assuming this is normal and he doesn't have respiratory problems, but of course I want to make sure. Also the verrrry tips of his widdle pin feathers are starting to poke out on his wings!


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## Jenny10

Your babies look great, and congratulations on the last one starting to hatch.


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## roxy culver

Hissing is normal in baby tiels...they start to do that around the time they make the "feed me" sounds. At least that's what I've read, srtiels probably knows from experience!


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## Berdnerd

Roxy, I kind of figured, but I wanted to check! Kieran now hisses and makes the baby feed me sound when I open the nest box lid. I know he's being fed and they make that sound a lot, but it's okay, right? Doesn't mean the parents aren't feeding him enough? His crop looks good to me. Also, the parents are wanting to eat an entire slice of bread every day. From one of those wide Country Oven loaves, the honey wheat berry kind. Is this okay? I don't want the babies to overload on bread! I've been sprinkling egg food (from the pet store) and brewer's years on the pellets and they've been getting a little bit of millet. So far they won't eat anything else I offer, but I imagine that will change as the babies get bigger and eat more. I'm also still putting acidophilus in the water. How long should I do that for?

I can't wait to check if the fourth egg has hatched. I last checked 8 hours ago when I was getting ready for bed. Waiting for Arthur to get his keester out of the nest box! I really hoped it's hatched (it probably has) because if it hasn't, it's been 26 hours since I first realized it was pipping.


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## Berdnerd

It's been 26 1/2 hours since I noticed the egg was starting to pip. It looks to me like he's pipped between 1/4 and 1/3 of the way around the shell. Should I try to help him out? I have srtiels article about assist hatching to look at... 

I wish he'd just hatch on his own! He's still chirping away and I can hear him pecking at the shell. I candled him and I can't see any veins, actually. I do see an eyeball though! I haven't heard any rapid yolk contraction chirps.

What to do? For the time being I'm going to put him back in the nest. I don't want him to die


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## Berdnerd

Here is the baby chirping and moving in its egg, sorry the video isn't really clear but you can see him moving.



What should I do? At this point, I feel inclined to wait a few more hours and then break the shell over the air cell. This afternoon we can go out and buy a thermometer and Critter Keeper to put the egg in. I'd imagine the best thing to do since we have a heating pad is turn on the heating pad, fold a towel and put it on the heating pad, then put the egg on top of dampened paper towels in a paper bowl, put the thermometer in the Critter Keeper, put the lid on, and monitor after I break the air cell. Does this sound good?


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## Berdnerd

WE HAVE BABY! PHEW! I heard random chirps (the babies only chirp now if they're being fed), went to investigate, and found an empty shell and a wet, wiggly baby. Mama and papa are taking care of him  I got a video of the family really quickly. Arthur was in the nest box (sometimes he doesn't leave for hours and I wanted to check on the egg), so you can see how protective he is. Yay for 4 babies! And yay that I didn't have to help him hatch!


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## Berdnerd

Yay! Here is little Phoenix! Isn't Phoenix an awesome name for a baby cockatiel? Our tiny bird family is complete 



Phoenix's little noggin pops out from under his papa's wing partway through. You can see how protective Arthur is! Also, you can see Kieran's eyes are starting to open! I just checked all the chicks over a couple of hours ago and his eyes were quite shut then. Hooray! He's grown so much in 6 days.

I'm so relieved all the eggs hatched okay and everyone is doing fine. Hopefully 4 babies is not too many for the parents and little Phoenix gets fed okay. Now the babies just need to grow up all healthy and strong!


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## srtiels

Wow! They looked great! And Aurther sure is a hisser  Congratulations on 4 little ones.


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## Berdnerd

I just did something very stupid accidentally! I turned the oven on to 425 and didn't realize there was a 9 inch Teflon coated cake pan in the oven! It was on for about 5-8 minutes before I realized it. I took it out of the oven immediately, opened all the windows and the door, and put a big box fan in the door and covered the bird cage. Will the chicks be okay?? We don't use non stick stuff because of the bird danger, and I wanted to be extra careful since we have babies. I just heard one of them chirp and now one of them is being fed. How much danger are they in? When will they be out of danger? Will this have a long term affect on them? I will NEVER forgive myself if something happens to them because of this. Stupid pan! This is why I don't normally store things in the oven. I've never turned the oven on without realizing something was in it before


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## Berdnerd

Okay. It's been about 40 minutes. I just checked on the wee ones and everyone is alive and alert. Phoenix has been fed. He is SO TINY! He's like a little miniature baby next to the others! So cute! He's all fluffy now too. I hope they'll be okay!!


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## srtiels

It sounds like they are fine. If poisoned you would have known immediately because ALL the birds would have been gasping for air.


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## Berdnerd

That's good to know, srtiels. I'll still be on high alert (higher alert?) for the next few days... I'm of course worried about Arthur and Poppet too, but I figure they're more robust than the tiny chicks.


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## srtiels

Teflon poisioning is IMEDIATENTLY apparent. Once the gasping starts they go into resiratory arrest and would have been dead by now.


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## Berdnerd

That's good to know. Everyone appears fine! I did have a brief moment of panic when I couldn't find Phoenix in the nest box, but he was just cuddled between the two biggest babies. I'll be keeping an extra close eye on him to make sure he's being fed properly, so far he looks great. He looks redder than the others, is that normal since he just hatched? I know it's silly since the other birds were just like him days ago, but you adjust quickly!

I'm loving Keiran's little open eyes. He's so cute! I had him out to look him over and get excess food off his face, and he was looking at me, then closed his eyes and lay his head down for a nap. Adorable. I can see where his crest will pop up soon and can see feathers under the skin on his chest, and the tips of the feather sheaths are sticking out on his wings. And his feet are starting to turn gray. So many developments!


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## Berdnerd

I have another worry about Teddy. Does his crop looks like it has air in it to you? He's 4 days old. He's the one who was passing whole millet seeds (but isn't anymore, thankfully). He seems to be growing well and is showing gray feathers on his wings, his eyes are starting to open (surprisingly since his brother who is 2 days older had his eyes open today, too! Though Teddy's aren't open as much), and he's started to hiss and beg for food too.

Here's his crop as is, without me touching it:










And with me poking it gently:



















And a picture of him with his head up- he's on the far right:










Here's a picture I took of him last night in the same position as the first 3 pictures, for comparison:










If it is air (which I think it is), it's not super taut like a balloon or anything.

Also, Arthur and Poppet are a little sloppy with their feeding. It's a good thing I take them out twice a day to clean them up with q tips and cotton balls! Two of the chicks had chunks of food stuck to their down (the wet spot on Teddy's feathers are from that) and Kieran had a food mustache.

Here are Kieran and Phoenix together just because they're adorable:










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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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## Jenny10

Sorry I can’t help on the air, but I can see what you are talking about, I am sure when Susanne reads she will be able to advice.

Susanne should be on commission for the amount of advice she gives on this forum, lol.

But your baby’s look adorable and Phoenix is such a nice name for a little one.


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## srtiels

The air your seeing is fine. When they cry they can gulp in a little bit of air and it is noticed in the locations you are seeing it.

In looking at the pix of him cupped in your hand the toe nails are staying white and the wingtips are not darkening yet, so there is a possibility he may be a pied.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I'm so relieved to hear it's normal! Thanks! I actually just got another peek at him a minute or two ago- both parents were out of the nest box so I looked. His crop looks normal now. Poor little bitty Phoenix was crying for food though and his crop is empty. It was full about 2 hours ago (or less) when I took those photos. I'll be keeping an eye on him. The parents have both been out of the nest box for at least 15 minutes now. They've been eating and preening. How long is normal for them to be out of the nest once the eggs have hatched? Right now Arthur is sitting on his favorite perch doing nothing and Poppet is eating. I'm a bit concerned because I sat there and watched them preen each other for at least 10 minutes, and during that time Poppet plucked 4 feathers off the back of Arthur's head. This did not please him. That combined with the plucking of her own feathers on her legs and other parts concerns me. I'm afraid she'll pluck the chicks once their feathers really start coming in! We'll deal with that when the time comes though. She's a good mama other than that. We'll be taking a trip to the vet once the babies don't need her as much!

Okay, Arthur just went into the nest box. I'm waiting to hear him feed the babies, particularly little Phoenix. Poppet is still eating. Considering how much Phoenix was crying for food 5 minutes ago, I'm surprised he's not crying now.

Edited to add: Jenny, I agree, Susanne deserves a commission! And thanks for admiring my babies, I think they're super adorable  It would be cool if Teddy ends up being a pied, though I didn't think that would happen since Arthur doesn't appear to be split to pied? Do all split to pied males have speckles on the back of their head? Pied is my favorite mutation so I would be tickled if Teddy ended up being one! I'm going to go consult the breeder calculator. Also, I can hear Arthur feeding chicks! Hooray! Hopefully Phoenix is one of them. I love the little fuzzball already. He's so cute and tiny.


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## srtiels

Ok...as to the littlest one...they may not feed him solids for the first 12-24 hours because he will be getting nutrients from the yolk that was absorbed. BUT, they should be giving him small amounts of fluids, so you night notice some liquid in the bottom of his crop considering he was a little red at hatch and might be very slightly dehyrated.

As to pied split marks...they can be anywhere on the body: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/pied.html


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, does he look okay in the photos I posted with Kieran? The one of the big chick and the tiny chick together? Those were a few hours ago. You can see he had food or water in his crop then. I just checked the nest box (much to Arthur's chagrin) and he has food or water in his crop. As long as he has something in his crop is he okay? I read that later chicks are at a disadvantage because the food is thicker, but his crop seems to be emptying well considering I've seen it full, then almost empty, and now full again. Also the little guy pooped when he was crying to be fed with an empty crop earlier when the parents were out of the nest (I had him out because he had some poop on his face and I wanted to clean it off). The parents have both been in the nest box for about an hour and a half now.

Also, how long should I give them the acidophilus spiked water and how much bread and millet can the parents get every day? They seem to prefer bread and millet to pellets right now and so far won't touch oatmeal or mixed up formula.


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## srtiels

_*so far won't touch oatmeal or mixed up formula.*_
_*------------------------------*_

The parents do not need this. It is a breeding ground for bacteria. 

You can probably stop the acidopholis tomorrow if you want.

So far the little one appears fine, and it is good that they are just feeding little bits of fluids/foods. A concern would be it you had noticed that the crop was packed with a bunch of seed. Then this can be harder to digest and also lead to dehydration and passing of whole seed.

With a new hatchling the crop will look similar to the pix when fluid is fed. If a little diluted food was added it would have an opaque look to it.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I think he's being fed diluted food. His crop is about as full as that baby's, but it's kind of opaque. His crop is very soft though and not packed at all.


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## srtiels

It sounds like they are doing a good job and feeding him what he needs at this age. You have excellent parent birds


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## Berdnerd

Srtiels, I'm so proud of them! They are good parents, aren't they? The little ones are doing great today. Kieran's pin feathers are getting longer and he's getting some on his chest. His little hairdo is juuuuust starting to come up. Teddy is starting to get pinfeathers too and I can see gray on top of his head where the crest will be. I'm guessing he won't be a pied after all based on how much gray he's getting. Oh well!

Srtiels, what would you advise that I should feed the parents right now? They get pellets, millet, bread, and I sprinkle brewer's yeast and dried egg food on their pellets. They normally get an organic seed blend too but I haven't really fed it since Teddy was having the digestion problems since the seeds are bigger.


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## srtiels

As they get bigger you can add in some seed. If they like greens like romaine, endive, watercress, you can clip some leafs to the inside of the cage for them to try. Put the egg food in a separate small bowl.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the tips, Susanne! I'm worried about the 1 day old chick. This is what his crop looks like:


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And when I pinch it gently:


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I can feel millet in there. It's not packed with millet, but I can feel the seeds in there. His crop is definitely firmer than the first chick's was when he was that age, but it doesn't feel firm like play dough or anything. Do I need to supplement him with some Pedialyte? I have clear Pedialyte, it is sweet tasting though. How much? I have 1 CC syringes. Do I warm it first? How often?

The 4 day old chick's crop is similar and so is the 7 day old chick's, but the 5 day old chick's crop is waterier feeling. Opinions?

Also, how much bread can the parents have every day? They seem to prefer it and millet over pellets and will eat an entire piece of Country Oven bread every day (which is bigger than normal square bread, the slices are rectangular).


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## Berdnerd

I still don't know what to do about little Phoenix. I'm afraid to give him a few drops of water or Pedialyte in case what he has going on is normal for a 1 day chick. If it's not necessary to give him fluids and he aspirates he will have died for no reason.

Kieran is starting to preen his pinfeathers and nibbled my fingers


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## srtiels

Hmmmm...sorry for the delay in responce.

Notice the dark intestine in the first pix? That is a sign that the little one was dehydrated upon hatch. It would have been darker looking, and this has lightened up some, BUT still aparent. 

Cut down on the bread to 1/2 of what you been giving them. That might be part of the doughy stuff in the crop. Put the eggfood in a side dish, maybe they'll eat more of this and less bread once it is reduced.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I just took out the bread. I'll give them 1/2 a piece broken up throughout the day. I wonder if it's best dried out or fresh from the bag. I put the egg food in a separate dish, it is this: http://www.petco.com/product/14860/...ement-For-All-Birds.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

I feel so bad about little Phoenix. Do you think he'll survive? I'll do whatever it takes to help him. Poor little guy. Is there anything else I can do for him? I've seen him poop so that's good, right? I saw the dark on his belly when I was photographing his crop and couldn't remember if the other chicks were like that or not. Is he still dehydrated?


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## srtiels

He does not look dehydrated now. His skin is a nice color, and the bodt and feet a plump looking. Part of the color of the intestines you are seeing is some of the last of the yolk being absorbed.

The egg food is fine, and another brand is also CeDe...both are similar.

OK...If the parents let you handle them try and take them out and see if they'll drink water. If they can drink some water prior to feeding the babies that will help. Also more the water closer to the side of the cage where the nestbox is so that that is the last thing they do (drink) prior to going in and feeding the babies. So the food layout would be the food the farthest away and the water the closest.


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## Berdnerd

I have a second water bowl that looks exactly like the one they have right now. I will put it in the cage right next to the nest box so they will hopefully drink more! The food is in the far corner of the cage. I can take the parents out of the cage and present them with a bowl of water, but I don't know how to make them drink?

Do you think I should supplement Phoenix with some water or Pedialyte? I have 1 CC syringes and clear Pedialyte. If so, should I warm the water and how often to give it? And how much? I'm assuming I would hold his head to keep it from bobbing, hold a paper towel under his beak to collect any excess water, and squirt the water a drop or so at a time into the right side of his mouth, waiting for him to swallow each time.

I last checked on the little guy about 5 hours ago and his crop was a bit softer then. I can take him out right now and check him again but both parents are in the nest box and it will mean facing the wrath of Arthur, which I generally try to avoid because of his tendency to trample the babies.


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## srtiels

_*Do you think I should supplement Phoenix with some water or Pedialyte? I have 1 CC syringes and clear Pedialyte. If so, should I warm the water and how often to give it? And how much? I'm assuming I would hold his head to keep it from bobbing, hold a paper towel under his beak to collect any excess water, and squirt the water a drop or so at a time into the right side of his mouth, waiting for him to swallow each time.
------------------------------------------------------*_

If the crops feels softer and doesn't retain the pinched look between the fingers then they are fine. If it is still doughy there is risk of yeast developing. Plan B would be getting some Caprylic Acid (Capryl) from the health food store and sprinkling it on the bread and any other foods the parents will eat. It is a good antifungal, and great against yeat. Also about 2-3 drops of Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) added to the water, just for 3-4 days, changing the water 3X a day.

If you feel you need to supplement feed, do as you describe above...but I would mix just a little formula in with it and just a pinch of Caprylic acid and Brewers Yeast to make a very watery formula, and feed...just enough (a couple drops) to make the crop feel softer and flexable.

When I have to supplement little ones I use a shot glass for mixing the formula, and to keep it warm I place the glass in a warm pan of water.


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## Berdnerd

Ha, I had already concluded a shot glass was the right thing to put the formula in! His crop was still somewhat doughy when I checked him a few hours ago, but not as much as it had been when I took the picture. I just now checked him again and his crop is even softer. I think he was just fed, I heard baby bird feeding sounds and he was acting hungry. When I tweak it it does hold the shape a little bit but goes back to its round shape in about 1 or 1 1/2 seconds. I think I'm going to forgo the supplemental feeding but keep a close eye on him. Hopefully with less bread, egg food in another cup, and an extra water bowl literally right outside the nest box (the parents will have to maneuver around it to go in), he'll be okay! Also, is it significant at all that he usually opens his beak to be fed when I have him out of the nest box, even when his crop is full?

How will I know if yeast is developing in his crop? His mouth is nice and clean. If I feed them the Caprylic Acid on the food and vinegar in the water, will that mess up the good bacteria in the babies' digestive systems?

I don't know why, but I find Phoenix extra irresistible. I had to stop myself from giving him a kiss! He's so darned adorable.


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## srtiels

Also, is it significant at all that he usually opens his beak to be fed when I have him out of the nest box, even when his crop is full?
---------------------------------------

LOL...he may be opening the beak to be fed, or opening it to cry and hiss at you. Though too little to hiss, he'll be doing it as he gets older.

Good point about the intestinal flora. After a couple of days then give some acidolpholis for 2-3 days.

As to yeast, it will start out looking like white patches...like little snow flakes on the inside of the crop skin. As it buds and grows it thickens and makes the crop skin more of an opaque whisitsh color. If just the skin only is pinched between the fingers, normal crop skin would be the thickness of a Kleenex tisue betwee your finger when under 7 days old. If the skin feels thicker like a paper towel folded to 2 thicknesses then there is yeast on the crop wall.


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## Berdnerd

Great, I will keep my eyes peeled for yeast in his crop! I actually HAVE read your fabulous articles but he's so tiny that I want to make sure I'm understanding things right, so thanks so much for explaining things that you have already written articles about  Would it be possible to put both vinegar and acidophilus in the water at the same time? I'm still putting acidophilus in the water as of today, today was going to be the last day of it.

Just because it would appear that I love bird poop (not really), here's a photo of poop from a few hours ago. All the babies' poop looks like this right now. Is it okay looking?


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## srtiels

The poop looks good.

Here is a pix of what a yeasty crop looks like in a smaller baby...


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## Berdnerd

Good to know! I will keep my eyes peeled. Hopefully it won't happen. Also, you have the patience of a saint with me and my 5000000 questions! I'm so thankful and I'm sure the chicks would be too if they knew!

Also I prefer to think that Phoenix just loves me so much that he has to chirp at me and ask me to feed him whenever he sees me. Him practicing hissing? Nawwwww  Incidentally, Kieran and Teddy have the hissing thing down- it's so darned cute. They're hilarious, they'll be hissing AND making the staticky sound (can't just do one at a time!) at me, the be asleep on my hand 10 seconds later. They're like tiny little grumpy narcoleptic old men. Love them!


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## srtiels

A part of the hissing in the nest, and they will rock back and forth and strike, is to scare off perditors in the wild. As they get older when you suddenly look in they really be hissing, striking and rocking. I have noticed sometimes the little females are the ones that do the most rocking and hissing once they are pinfeather to feather age.

Don't worry about the questions. My tiels taught me well


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## Berdnerd

My little Kieran is great at hissing and rocking and he struck at me for the first time yesterday! It was cute  I wonder how long until he's not afraid of me anymore. Maybe he's a girl! I decided to just call them all boys for the time being instead of arbitrarily assigning them sexes.

Your cockatiels were good teachers!


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## Berdnerd

Okay, just got a peek at Phoenix. Good news is his crop is softer. And he pooped and it looked normal. Bad news is that partway through the time I had him out, he started to make a quiet clicking sound!! I think it's when he breathes. I'm gentle with him and didn't tweak his crop to hard and his crop wasn't full, but maybe I pushed some fluid up out of his crop and he inhaled it?  Poor baby. I'm so sorry, Phoenix! I hope he'll be okay. Going to check him again in a few minutes and hopefully the sound went away. Tiny baby does not need pneumonia.

EDIT: Okay, it's been about 10 minutes and the parents left the nest so I checked out the babies. Phoenix is not clicking anymore... still worried. Everyone else is doing fine.


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## Berdnerd

We had to go meet with our wedding officiant tonight and right before we left, I checked on Phoenix. His crop didn't have a whole lot in it and it was quite doughy  He was making the quiet clicking sound again. We had to meet with the officiant (no way around it), so we made it quick and then grabbed some more handfeeding supplies on the way home because I was going to supplement him. When we got home, I could hear Poppet feeding the chicks. I let her finish and got Phoenix out and his crop is now full. It doesn't feel as doughy anymore but the original doughy food is probably still in there, huh? His crop does feel firmer than his siblings', even Kieran's. His crop is too full right now to try to give him a couple drops of the runny formula mixed with brewer's yeast and that acid. Should I wait until his crop empties some and give him some of it if it seems doughy? 

He's also still making the quiet clicking sound. Sometimes it's louder and sometimes it's quieter, but I can see the left side of his throat twitch when he does it


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## srtiels

How is the little one doing now? If skin colortone still looks fine, and he is digesting and pooping OK just keep an eye on him. Hopefully by morning he will sound better. keep us posted.


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## Berdnerd

I last checked on him about an hour and a half ago. He was still clicking and his crop was full. Not doughy per se, but not thin either. His crop contents seem thicker than those of his older siblings. I noticed that Teddy seemed to be making the clicking sound everrr so slightly too. I really hope some respiratory thing isn't flying around! Phoenix's skin tone looks good to me- it looks the same as his siblings'. He didn't poop on me when I checked on him last, but the time before he did and it appeared normal.

I fired up the scale last night (got a battery for it!) and Phoenix weighs 12 grams at 2 days old. Neeja weighs 23 grams at 5 days, Teddy is 31 at 6 days and Keiran 39 at 8 days. Do these weights sound appropriate? I noticed the chick in your Watch Me Grow weighed more than Neeja and Keiran at their ages, the same as Phoenix, and 2 grams more than Teddy. They appear to be developing at the proper rates and look the same as the chick in the photos. Arthur and Poppet are both pretty small birds and weigh around 85 grams each so maybe their babies are just little like them. In any case, I made an Excel spread sheet so I can chart their weight gain.


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## srtiels

Since you are getting weight gains daily that is good, and at 2 days Phoenix weight is very good. *IF* there is defintely a problem the gain in 24 hours will be none to 1 gram. 

Look at their mouths when they are crying or hissing. The inside should look pink and rather dry looking. If clear sticky or watery it could be a problem. 

You can listen to their backs to determine where the clicking is coming from. If the clicking is happening when they are hissing or crying this may be normal.


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## Berdnerd

Their mouths seem good to me. I haven't specifically looked in any of their mouths yet looking for wet vs dry, but I peek in there when they yawn at me or something.

The 3 youngest babies now all have crops that can hold a shape to some extent when gently pinched. They have millet seeds. Their crops aren't full, it looked like they hadn't been fed in a while. I'm sure that when they get fed again (which I can hear happening right now), their crops will plump up again. Is this somewhat normal or do all 3 youngest chicks have a problem now?  I think Arthur and Poppet didn't feed them for a while because I only gave them about 1/3 a piece of bread yesterday and no millet. They prefer those foods to the egg food (which they haven't eaten much of if they have at all) and pellets. Oh and the parents haven't eaten any millet at all in at least 12 hours unless they have some secret millet stash. So is it bad that the babies have millet in their crops? I'm anxious to know how long it takes for their crops to completely empty of millet.

Oh and Phoenix pooped on my hand, it was a good sized poop and looked normal. I also almost dropped him- I had him and Neeja out to look them over in a bowl on top of the cage, picked Neeja up and put him back, went to pick up Phoenix... and he was gone! What?!? Looked back in the nest box and there he was! Either he can transport himself through thin air or I somehow picked both of them up at once. I'm just glad he didn't slip.


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## srtiels

_* I think Arthur and Poppet didn't feed them for a while because I only gave them about 1/3 a piece of bread yesterday and no millet.*_ 
------------------------------------
Reduce the amount of bread given at each feeding to half. I suspect some of the doughyness might be the bread in the crop. Hopefully in doing this they might eat more of the other foods you feed them.


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## Berdnerd

Do you mean only give them 1/6 a piece of bread every day? Like cut the 1/3 piece in half? They were getting a whole piece every day. They seem pretty resistant to eating other things and Arthur's been squawking like he's hungry. At the moment both birds are scrounging around on the floor of the cage looking for millet, which there isn't any of. Why won't they just eat their pellets? Can I try giving them cooked pasta and just leaving it in for an hour? Maybe they would eat that. Also is the state of the older chicks' crops concerning or is it okay for them to feel a little doughy when they aren't full? And how long should it be after the parents are last given millet for the crops to feel empty of millet?


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## srtiels

I thought you were giving them a 1/3 peice each feeding. How about 1/6 morning and 1/6 later in the day.

You mentioned you were giving handfeeding formula. Is this mixed, on a plate? And how well did the parents like it? And specifically what time of day did they eat it the most? Quite possibly you might mix up some with some plain yogurt and a pinch of garlic powder added to it. Leave in the cage 1/2 hour Max at a time. If they'll eat this that will get some nutients into the chicks as you reduce bread, til they start eating the millet or seeds and pellets.

OK...at the age that your chicks are the crops are never entirely empty. Most times there should be food in them and from late afternoon to evening the crops should be packed with food.


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## Berdnerd

I'll do the 1/6 piece twice a day then  I gave them mixed up formula once but they didn't eat it. They just knocked over the bowl. I will try giving some more to them now, but will leave out the yogurt and garlic this time since maybe they'll like it better.

The babies' crops weren't empty when I last checked, they just weren't full (except for Kieran). Can I give them millet? I haven't given any to them since yesterday. I wasn't sure if it was adding to the problem with Phoenix so didn't give them anymore. They were getting 1 piece of millet (broken into 2 pieces with half in the morning and half at night) for about 3 days prior to yesterday. Should I give them their seed blend too? I hadn't given them any in almost a week since the seeds are so big and last week Teddy was having digestion issues and pooping out whole millet seeds. 

Good news at least is no one is pooping whole seeds anymore!


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## srtiels

Yes...give them their seeds back.

Ok...if they were not that thrilled with the formula then you can skip it, unless you feel they'll eat a little.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty, I gave them some seeds. I think Poppet ate some of the formula. I had the genius idea to put a little torn up bread on top of the formula so she'd go to it. She immediately pulled out a cube of bread and ate it, but then she went back to the bowl and was eating out of it. She may have pecked at the bread a bit but I can see some beak marks in the actual formula. Then she was sitting in front of her bowl of pellets (pellets are their base food by the way and they normally eat them fine) but it looked like she was digging through them rather than eating. I gave them a tiny piece of bread after removing the formula and of course she and Arthur were right there gobbling it up.

I checked the babies again. They look the same as they did 3 hours ago. I heard them being fed a couple of hours ago. The younger three all have partly filled, kind of doughy crops with millet in them. I got more pictures of Phoenix, how does he look? His butt is poopy because he just pooped on me (looked normal) then stepped in it. 


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Arthur is eating some seeds right now. He likes to hold them in his foot.


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## srtiels

He looks good  And look how sweet he looks yawning.


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## Berdnerd

I just weighed them again. It's been 22 hours since the last weigh. Kieran (9 days) went from 39 g to 43 g. Teddy (7 days) went from 31 g to 33 g. Neeja (8 days) went from 23 g to 25 g. And Phoenix (3 days) went from 12 g to 13 g. As you can see, not fantastic gains. I doubt 2 hours would have made much of a difference. Neeja pooped on the scale and the poop had less urine than usual, it was like one thick worm that I for once did not photograph. Everyone's crops are pretty full but kind of doughy except for Kieran's, whose is nice.

What should I do? I'm getting nervous. Would they be better of handfed do you think?


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## srtiels

The skintone color of the crop looks very good, so right now I would suggest not to worry so much  And you have weight gains. Try to weigh each time when the crop is filled the same amount so that you get consistant readings. The crop contents are also part of the weight. But if it is almost empty one time and packed the next this will also reflect on weights, and when almost empty appear that they are not gaining, etc.

If they are getting some millet/seed the poop may come out as described and have a sticky consistency.


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## Berdnerd

Hi Susanne, thanks for the reply! I'm afraid they're getting dehydrated because Neeja's poop is thicker and less wet and their crops aren't as full as normal whenever I check them (except for Kieran, I think he has better digestion) and their crops are all at the point where they hold the shape if I tweak them. I can tell they aren't being fed as often (though they are being fed right now), I think because Arthur and Poppet aren't eating as much since they are being picky. Hopefully they will get over their stubbornness today and eat the pellets and seeds properly, and drink more water. Do you think they don't like the vinegar taste in the water?

As for their weights, their crops seemed to be about the same amount of filled both times. Should I maybe try to syringe each baby some super watered down formula a few times a day to get some extra fluids in them? With brewer's yeast added in like we talked about yesterday for Phoenix? If so, how much for each chick (since they're different weights) and do I need to hold all of their heads to keep them from bobbing and look for a feeding response first or what?

Also, just because it's cute, here is Mondo aka Kieran waddling around a few hours ago. He seems much more alert this past day and is looking around more and hissing at me less:


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## srtiels

Wow!...he has sure grown. The proportions look good, so I don't see any stunting or visual signs of dehydration. So far the crop does not look like it is hard packed or dehydrated.

I just got these (pix's) in ( from: http://www.justtomatoes.com/ ) and tried them with my picky tiels. and they chowed down on them. At first it was just crunching them up to powder then they started eating them. This might be something you might want to order for your parent birds...plus it would be something the babies can nibble on later on when they are weaning. They also taste great as a people snack, or toped on salads, etc.

The multi-colored toes look like the baby is split to pied.


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## Berdnerd

Isn't Kieran a cute little guy? You can hear him tweeting through the whole video. I had noticed his speckled toes too! He is the only chick who doesn't seem to be having any crop issues- his has always been full and soft. It's everyone else who I'm concerned about.

You know, when I went to the health food store a couple days ago, I saw the Just Tomatoes display as I was leaving and actually went back in to consider them. I feed them as treats to my bunnies and rats and eat them myself too. I don't have any right now, but I'll go buy some of the mixed veggie ones when the store opens in a few hours. I thought of something else too. You know those Zupreem brand cockatiel pellets that are bright colors and smell like Fruity Pebbles? Back before Arthur and Michaela would eat regular pellets (which was a multi month process about 8 years ago), they would happily eat the fruity pellets. Would that be okay food for them to feed the babies? If you think so, we'll go buy a bag this morning and feed them to the parents. Maybe they would be willing to eat those.

I'm going to go check on the chickies and get a video of their crops. I'm definitely willing to give the supplementing them with watered down formula thing a try if you think it could be helpful to them and tell me exactly how much to give and how to do it (basically, if I should hold onto all of their heads to keep them all from bobbing or just Phoenix since he's smallest, and if I should wait for a feeding response). So hopefully I'll have another video to post here in about 20 minutes. It seems like the parents are feeding them and the crops feel okay, then a couple hours later the crops are smaller and doughy, then they get fed again and it repeats.


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## srtiels

If your baby poop starts to look like this it is fine. This is how it looks from a seed/millet, and a little bread.


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## srtiels

I didn't realize that the pix was a video til you mentioned it. The videos help.

Yes...the Zupreem fruit blend pellets are what I give my tiels and mousebirds.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty, I got everyone videoed and photographed! And Neeja's poop looks like that except green. One long tube. He was kind enough to poop when I was filming him so you'll "get" to see that in a few minutes. Going to go upload videos and photos now. And I'll pick up some of those fruity pellets and the freeze dried veggies today for sure!


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## srtiels

I was ourside feeding the birds and re-running the video in my mind...so I had to come in to replay it. There is something I noticed. When he puts his head down he looks like he is swaying his neck back and forth like he want to try and regurutate, and then swallowing and giving a sharp peeping sound.

This *could be* a sign of a problem such as the beginnings of a sour crop. Look at the crop front veiw. Do the crop contents look like they are mostly fluid? Or feel like a soft water balloon?

He looks great aside from what I noted above. Let me know what your observations of the crop content are. If fluids do not try to sqweeze, because it could force food up the throat and could cause some aspiration.


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## srtiels

_*And I'll pick up some of those fruity pellets and the freeze dried veggies today for sure*_!
--------------------------
That would be great. I'm suspecting that the bread might be a contribuor to some problems. If you can get them to eat more of a variety, and slowly wean back on the bread that would be great.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I was wondering about that- he puts his head down, lifts it and swallows/ "licks his lips" or something. I thought maybe that was a normal baby bird thing to do. I just went and had a look at him and I can't *see* any separated out contents. His crop is very soft, like a water balloon. I was careful not to squeeze it. It's quite full right now. When I compared the base of his crop to the top, the top feels softer, but it also doesn't have the full weight of the food resting on it. Do you think he's okay?? One chick with too soft a crop, the others with too firm... jeez!

My video is still loading, but here are the pictures of everyone. Keep in mind that they had been fed recently so their crops were softer than they are when they've been less full. The picture of Kieran was actually taken back when that video was taken a few hours ago. The weights are all the weights from 7 hours ago when their crops were a little less full.

Kieran, 10 days old (photo taken 5 hours ago, 43 g):









Teddy, 8 days old, 33 g:


















Neeja, 7 days old (does he look way less developed and feathered than Teddy to you, given it's only 1 day difference? Also his eyes can open a little, he just has them closed. 25 g):









in this second picture I had just gently tweaked his crop:









Phoenix, 4 days old (his crop is quite full and it feels doughier than Neeja's and Teddy's. 13 g):

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










Poop. The one on the left is from Neeja, right from Phoenix:


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## Berdnerd

Oops! Phoenix is 4 days, not 5. Just edited to make that clear!


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## srtiels

OK...the poops are normal.

The crops on all but Kieran seem fine. I'm not 100%, but it sounds like the crop may be the start of sour crop, which will make it look like that and feel like a water balloon.

Read this thread: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=14389 This may be the direction that Kieran may be heading and hopefully we can get Kayla to look at the pix's and give some input.


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## Berdnerd

The video finally finished uploading, here it is. I wish now I had Kieran featured individually like everyone else, but he has that whole video earlier. In this video, I show Teddy first, then Neeja, then Phoenix. So in order from second oldest to youngest.



Do you think Kieran has sour crop? I really hope I don't have to hold him upside down and force the food out! I don't have any tools to suck out his crop. My vet has some experience with cockatiels and has seen Arthur and Poppet before, but I don't know if she has any experience with chicks. They open in half an hour and I'll call then if you think it would be in his best interest. I'd imagine even if she's never emptied a crop, she'd be better at it than me and hopefully have the tools to do it!


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## srtiels

OK...the 3 younger ones look fine, and their crops appear OK. I PM'd Kfelton the link to the page to the video, so hopefully if she is online soon she can add comments.

Kieran is the oldest and would be the one with the longest neck, so he would be fed first. he may have gotten more of a bread ratio than the others. What is the temp in the nextbox? Sometimes if it is too wartm that could contribute to a sour crop.

Just to be on the safe side you might keep Kieran in a separate warm container for several hours to see how he digests and empties out his crop. If he can empty it on his own, then things are OK. If not then he may need help. In looking at the size of his crop it is going to take 6-8 hours to empty on it's own.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks for e-mailing her. I was reading that thread as it happened and was so worried for the little ones. I don't know what the temperature is in the nest box, don't have a thermometer in there. How would you suggest getting the temperature? I have digital thermometers meant to go in meet I could stick one in there for a few minutes at chick level. They may end up sitting on it or something but that's better than them getting impaled on it.

What kind of container would you suggest and how to keep it warm? What temperature? I have a heating pad (that I think is designed to go off after half an hour or so as a safety feature, such a pain in the rear! Didn't realize that when we bought it) and a Snuggle Safe (that you put in the microwave to warm). So many questions, huh? We can go to the store and buy whatever we need. I just want him to be okay. Good to know the other chicks look okay. Hopefully with the other pellets and freeze dried veggies they'll be fed better.


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## srtiels

At the petstore can you get a T-Rex Cobra heat mat? (in the reptile section) This will stay at a constant 100 degrees.

What I do is use a carboard box approx 8 inches tall. Line the bottom of the box with paper towels. Place the heat pad over 2/3 of the box opening. I put a paper bag on the topside of the heat pad. Mist the inside walls of the box. This adds humidity. You can partially cover up or open the opening of the box to adjust heat...but what is radiating on the baby should be constant.

Or if you can't find the heat mat, then use the heating pad, just checking every few hours that it is on. With a heating pad you will have it bent into an *L* so that 1/2 is going up the side of the box. Have a couple inches of bedding under the paper towels inside the box. Lightly mist the inside walls of the box for humidity, and cover the box. You want to inside to feel warm like a sauna. You can regulate temps by opening or closing the opening at the top of the box.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I will look for the heat mat and a thermometer and the pellets at the pet store. I'll probably pick up one of those plastic Critter Keepers too. Would that be suitable instead of the box? And what is a good temperature range for him to be kept at? Solid 100 or is 95 or so okay too in case the temperature fluctuates? I'll put my digital probe thermometer in there too, you can set it to go off if it gets hotter than a certain temperature. He's going to be so lonely, should I put him in a bowl or something or give him a Beanie Baby to cuddle?


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## srtiels

A Beanie Baby would be good for him to snuggle up to. Temps between 90-100 should be fine. Their body temps are approx 104 degrees, so you don't want temps to go over that. The kritter keep wil be bine. Until you get heat adjusted (depending on what you use for heat. you might want to have a towel wrapped along the side. Or place the critter keeper inside a large plastic box and fold the box over 2-3 sides so that there is some darkness, which the little one will feel more secure in dark rather than harsh light.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, we're back from the store and $70 poorer. We got the pellets, a terrarium thermometer, a humidity gauge, a 10 gallon aquarium, and a Repti Therm Under Tank Heater like this: 

http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?familyid=6353&Ntt=repti therm&OneResultRedirect=1

The package doesn't say anything about it only raising the temperature 10 degrees. It says it's for reptiles and small animals and has a temperature guide for different species, which goes up to 100 degrees. I certainly hope it goes that high since it says so on the package! It is supposed to go under the aquarium. Does it sound appropriate? Do I need to put a towel inside the aquarium so the baby isn't right over the heater? The heater doesn't cover the entire bottom of the aquarium, so the little guy will be able to move off the heat if necessary. I'm going to wait to open the package until you say it's good enough because it cost almost $30 and if it's the wrong thing I want to be able to return it. Also I'll have my digital thermometer in there too that will go off if the temperature gets too high. I plan to put a mesh aquarium topper on it that I already have and cover the whole works with a towel so it won't be too bright.

What humidity should it be inside or does it not really matter for only a few hours? I'll spray the sides with water. And should I put a towel inside the aquarium so the baby isn't right on the heat?


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## Berdnerd

Darn it  I'm reading the reviews for the heater and they say it doesn't warm the tank up much. Talk about false advertising  I'm so annoyed!


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## srtiels

Yikes...bring the aquarium back too. I do not like to use glass because it does sweat which can be problematic as cause respiratory problems. And plastic sometimes sweats, which is why I started using cardboard boxes. The hold the heat, and also aborb moisture, yet do not rob moisture from the environment.

I goal for now is to place him somewhere where he can stay warm, on paper towels to monitor that he is digesting (pooping) and to get that crop size down. You should weigh him prior to placing him in the container, and every couple of hours as he digests, which he should start slowly losing the weight of the crop contents.


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## Berdnerd

I don't have a car, which makes these things fun  My fiance took me to the pet store this morning. I have our miserable heating pad heating up the aquarium, but it's only raised the temperature 1 degree in half an hour set on high. I'm going to go walk to the store and buy a heating pad that hopefully isn't worthless and doesn't have an auto shut off thing. We do have cardboard boxes, so I'll just use one of those like you originally said. Thankfully the label is still on the aquarium so we can return it too. I just went to the health food store and bought the Just Veggies.


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## Berdnerd

I just checked on the chicks. I think Kieran definitely has something going on. His crop is very full, while everyone else's crop is only about half full. Teddy and Neeja's crop look good and Phoenix's is very doughy. As for Kieran and his full crop, he keeps looking like he's swallowing. Swallowing down fluids from his crop? The chicks haven't been fed in a couple of hours at least (though now I can hear them being fed). Would it be better to just take Kieran to the vet?

Edit: I just called the vet office to see who's there today and if they have any appointments. Of course the bird doctor won't be in until Monday. They have another vet who works with birds, but no appointments until Monday. I could bring him in as an emergency (which is an extra $100) but the vet who is there killed my rabbit so I'm disinclined to bring Kieran to her if she's as bad with birds as she is with bunnies!

Off to the store I go.


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## srtiels

OK...you have my phone # (943-632-0543) I may have to talk you thru over the phone how to empty out his crop. From what you are describing he is at risk of some of the fluids in his crop backing back up as he is doing the swallowing motions and he couls self aspirate.

Read and/or print this: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html and gather/buy: Alka Selzer, the spices for the spice remedy, and plain yogurt OR the brand yogurt shown in the pix...it has papaya which will help digestion.

The faster we turn this around the quicker he will go back to normal.

A carboard box the size of your nestbox will do just fine. If you have a plastic or glass jar fill it with water (approx 110 degrees) and wrap in a handtowel and place in the box. This can be used as a heat source until you can get a better/reliable heating pad.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I just got back from the store with a new heating pad! Didn't see your post until right now. I'm going to call my fiance at work and beg him to take me to the store because it's an hour round trip and I don't want to wait longer to get him taken care of. I'm going to read the article while I'm on the phone with my fiance. I'll update after I take to him.


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## srtiels

Ok...if you need any help, don't hesitate to call. (((HUGS)))


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## Berdnerd

I just got home with the Alka Seltzer and ginger and realized I forgot the yogurt!! Is Greek yogurt okay? It's thicker than regular yogurt, but I opened a container the night before last so it's still good. I cannot believe I did that, I even wrote a mini list for my two items. Yogurt didn't make it onto the list 

Susanne, do you think it would be better for me to try this at home or take Kieran to the vet and have her do it? At least there would be tubes and syringes at the vet to draw the crop contents out instead of me squishing it out while holding him upside down. I just called the vet back and had the receptionist specifically go and ask the vet if she can emtpy and flush the crops of 4 and 10 day old chicks. Receptionist was gone for a couple minutes and when she came back, she said the vet can do that. This is the same vet who was very inexperienced in her care of my rabbit 2 years ago and ended up killing her. She's not at all a mean or callous vet, just was very unsure of herself and unknowledgeable at least when it came to rabbits. She's quite young.

If I do take them, should I bring all the chicks to be looked at, or just Kieran? Maybe Phoenix too since when I checked him an hour ago, his crop was half full and quite doughy? Should I bring Poppet too or just take the chick(s)? I could heat up my Snuggle Safe in the microwave and bring the chick(s) in a small cardboard box with the lid shut to retain warmth. The Snuggle Safe stays warm for hours.


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## srtiels

Yes...if the vet can do it that would be GREAT. Also have the vet prescribe you some Nystatin. And ask the vet while there to do some Sub-Q fluids under the skin if needed.

Vet can do a gram stainof each to see if there is any yeast in the crop/poop.


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## srtiels

Print out these pix's to bring to the vet. If she has catherters there she can use them to make up a tool to suck out the crop. If not she may have the steel feeding needles. But she will have to use the tube to add more fluids into the crops if the crop contents are thickened.

Good luck and keep us posted. bring my phone # along just in case. if the vet is unsure of anything I can talk her through it.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I will call them back and tell them we're coming! I will bring all the chicks and leave the parents at home. Hope they don't miss their babies too much. Wish us luck! I'm writing down the Nystatin and gram stain thing. It will take a little while for my fiance to get home to get us, so I have time to ask this: Should I bring along the Alka Seltzer and have her flush it with that and then syringe some to them? I don't think Kieran will need the food broken up since it's so liquidy, but Phoenix would need it to be broken up some and the other chicks might too if we decide to empty all 4. Would it hurt anything to have them all emptied?


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## Berdnerd

Just saw your other post! Will print those out and bring your phone number.


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## srtiels

Print out my article with the Alka-Selzer in it to show to the vet. It has always worked for me.

Keep us posted.


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## Berdnerd

Yep got it all printed out and the snuggle safe is in the microwave. Of course, Poppet and Arthur chose this time to feed their chicks...


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## srtiels

When she checks little Phoenix's crop she can determine if there is yeast. If she goes to flush them have her crop feed them a small amount of 50/50 vinegar and water. Bring some vinegar along just in case. Once tubed into the crop massage the crop skin between the fingers for 30 sec. to work the vinegar water into the crop contents and make contact with the skin. When the crop is flushed if there is yeast it will look similar to the pix's depending on the build-up.


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## Berdnerd

We're back and it was a traumatic experience for two of us: Kieran and me. We had to wait for half an hour, then the vet wouldn't even look at the papers I brought. She decided to only empty Kieran's crop. She used this long metal stick with a ball on the end to suck up some of the contents, but it was I guess a little thick because she couldn't suck up much. Instead, it came out of his mouth! It was frothy. Then she squirted saline in and sucked it back out with the weird ball syringe, and again lots and lots came out of his mouth in addition to going into the syringe. She said she got it emptied enough, and poor Kieran was having trouble breathing  Standing as tall as he could, wings away from body, chirping and "coughing" for a good 15 minutes before he collapsed onto his siblings. She listened to his lungs and said it didn't sound like he breathed any in... She tested the crop contents and said it was full of yeast. She refused to use the alka seltzer and didn't give him any vinegar water. Instead she said to mix 1 t vinegar with 1 C warm water and to give him and the other chicks .5 ml twice a day for 3 days and to put them back with the parents ASAP. She wouldn't prescribe the Nystatin and didn't test the other chicks except to feel their crops. Kieran's crop filled up with air (maybe because of the crying?) and she had to "burp" him by gently squeezing his crop, and I've done the same once since getting home.

Good news is Kieran is no longer coughing or making bad sounds. He and the other chicks are begging for food. As for the other chicks, their crops are only about 1/4 full now (we were gone for 2 hours!) and the contents are not doughy at all. I'm actually concerned they may be too liquidy now, since it's obvious I don't know what a healthy crop is like! 

What do you suggest I do now, Susanne? I haven't put them back with the parents. They're still in their box with the snuggle safe. All 4 are begging for food.

Also, can't remember if I mentioned it or not, but Arthur likes the fruit pellets except for the banana shaped ones.


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## srtiels

What an experience. She should have just tipped him and expressed the food out of the crop... it would have been less traumatic. 

OK... if there is confirmed yeast...yeast is the #1 killer of baby cockatiels. The vinegar treatment is not going to be enough, and it is also going to unbalance the intestinal flora in the GI tract. I would back off from the vinegar right now.

If you have to handfeed each one something mix up the spice remedy and add about 1/16 of a tsp to the formula. I use a Mc Donalds coffee stirer to measure. The stirrer is black plastic and I scoop up a little pile on the flat paddle end. And add in some yogurt. If the parents are willing to feed them you can supplement feed them a couple times a day with the formula. 

If you have some of the Capryl (caprylic acid) generously sprinkle this on the bread or the parents favorite food. The caprylic acid is just as effective as nystatin against yeast.

The priority is to treat and stop the yeast.

My tiels do not like the banana shaped pellets either.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, should I feed Kieran the 1 cc of alka seltzer water and then wait 2 hours and feed him 2 CC of formula (he weighs approximately 40 g so that would be half of a normal serving, right?) like it says on your website? And add the spice mix and a pinch of brewer's yeast and a pinch of Capryl? I remember when we were going to have to hand feed Phoenix a little bit, you said to add Capryl and brewer's yeast to the formula. If that's what I should do, how many parts water to formula powder (I have Kaytee)? And after that feeding, would it be safe to put him back with his parents?

For the other 3 chicks, should I just feed them the formula mixed with the spice blend and is the 1/16 t per chick or for all of them total? How much formula to feed them? After I feed the 3 chicks, can I put them back with the parents and then just supplement feed them twice a day for a couple days?

I just want to do this right! And the chickies are hungry, they're crying for food. I noticed that Kieran is still smacking his lips some and Neeja is working his beak and tongue while he has his beak pointing up. I think Neeja may be doing it because he's hungry, I don't know.

I took a video of the chicks a few minutes ago but for some reason Photobucket takes about 20 minutes to register that I've uploaded a video.


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## srtiels

I just went online. There is a place that you can order Medistain which is a powdered form of Nystatin: http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/medistatin.html

The above is good to have on hand. In the interim you should use the caprylic acid. it can also be added to the formula.


You might want to have this on hand to: http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/AviBios.html


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I don't know if you saw or not because I think we were typing at the same time, but I asked a bunch of questions in a post at 5:08. Also I will order those two items to have on hand! Thanks for suggesting them!


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## srtiels

Ok...let him digest the Alka-Selzer water first. This will also flush out his digestive trace, especially if any bacteria is starting. 

As you suggested start him with the 2cc of formula with the Brewers yeast, Capryl, and Spice mix. Also add a little yogurt if you have some.

I confess I don't measure the water to powder rario to mix the formula. I mix it up until it is about the consistency of applesause. Below is a pix. it should be thinner than shown...where it drips from whatever you use to mix it. (I thought I had a better pix) The mixture in the pix was for 2 weeks or older.

I'd start of with the 1/16 for all of them because you will be mixing just a little formula. 

The easisest way to not make to much formula is to weigh all the chicks. and get their combined weight. Each gram is equal to 1 cc of fluid. You will feed each on 10cc of body weight...so divide the total body weight by 10, and use that # to tell you how much water to use for mixing the formula.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty, I have Kieran's Alka Selzer cooling now. Heated it up too much! Should I give the other chicks a little or no?

My plan is to feed Kieran 1 CC of Alka Selzer, then wash and disinfect everything and make up the formula with the spice, Capryl and brewer's yeast. Then feed Teddy, Neeja and Phoenix the formula and give them back to their parents. Kieran I will hold in the makeshift brooder for about 2 hours, then make up a new batch of formula and feed him 2 CCs. Then replace him in the brooder, and when his crop looks empty (is that correct?) make up a new batch of the spiffed up formula and feed him 4 CCs. Then give him back to his parents. Does this sound like a good plan of action? Then for the next couple days I will supplement each chick twice with approximately 1/10 of their body weight of the spiffed up formula. Sound accurate to you?


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## srtiels

Sound like a well thought out course of action.


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## Berdnerd

Kieran has been successfully Alka Selzered! Now I'm going to wash everything and feed the others their food. I hope it goes ok!


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## roxy culver

Good luck honey...I hope everything works out ok. ((hugs)) All 6 of mine don't like the banana shaped pellets btw.


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## Berdnerd

Ohhhh. I never want to handfeed. I just now finished, over an hour and a half after I started with Kieran's alka selzer. Waiting for stuff to cool down... washing... disinfecting... When it was time to feed, I realized that the syringes the vet gave me didn't have measurements on them  I gave Kieran his full 1 CC of alka selzer, but the other chicks did not get their full amount of formula. Probably about half of what they were supposed to get. Teddy was being uncooperative, Neeja was being pretty cooperative but I the syringe suddenly shot out a ton of formula into his mouth (which he miraculously did not choke on), and I was afraid of doing the same with little bitty 13 gram Phoenix. Interestingly enough, Phoenix was easiest to feed because he was very eager and giving the feeding response. I know the other chicks were hungry (they'd been crying for food and their crops were almost empty), but they didn't quite know what to do.

My poor baby Kieran is sitting in his box all alone, chirping and making hungry sounds. 1 hour to go until I will attempt to feed him 2 CCs. Hopefully it goes better with him since he's bigger! I put the other chicks back in with their parents and the parents practically fell all over each other running to the nest box. I could hear the babies being fed within less than a minute. I sprinkled about 1/2 a capsule of Capryl on their fruity pellets and freeze dried veggies so hopefully the parents will eat it with it on top. I'm so pleased that they're eating the pellets and freeze dried veggies! The babies all started pooping red tinged poop already from the red pellets (with the possible exception of Kieran).

Is it okay that I didn't feed them the full amount? I didn't want to hurt them. Some is better than nothing, right? Should I double the spice blend, brewer's yeast and Capryl for tomorrow's supplemental feedings so they get enough?

Most importantly... What are the chances little Kieran and the other babies will make it through this? I don't want my babies to die! Now that the younger chicks' crops are emptying and not doughy, and Kieran got flushed, and the parents are eating a more varied diet, hopefully everything will be okay.

Here's the video of the chicks after we got home from the vet, you can see me messing with their crops a bit. Kieran is the first one I take out of the bowl, then Teddy, Neeja and Phoenix (so in order from oldest to youngest). Kieran's crop was essentially empty at that point, it had some air in it. I'm not sure the vet did the most thorough job, but I didn't want him to die from aspirating stuff so I didn't press her to flush him out after removing all the food very much:



How do they look?

I can hear Kieran chirping every minute or so. Poor boy is lonesome.


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## srtiels

Ah...the poor babies look worn out.

Below are some pix's of hold I hold the heads when I handfeed. I am left handed so the illus are too. As long as you try and have the head firmly supported and held and the neck upstretched it makes it easier to handfeed, and a minimal amount of mess. I use my index finger to wedge open the beak so that I can see them swallow.

If Kieran is digesting and pooping you might want to let him stay in the nest for the night...and check on him every few hours to see if he needs feeding or is OK. Plus it is also a very good sign if he is digesting and pooping.

The other babies appear to be fine so far.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, do you mean let him stay in the nest box or in the cardboard box brooder?

Poor babies were indeed tired out. Little Kieran is chirping in his box. I actually think he's responding to Arthur- Arthur's chirping and then Kieran is chirping right back! Cute! It sure makes ya feel bad to hear a little baby bird chirping from inside a close box. I'm checking on him every few minutes to make sure he's not overheating or getting too cold and the poor little guy is shivering. I don't think he's slept  I wish I could check the temperature without opening the box.

He hasn't pooped yet since I removed the other babies from the cardboard box. He may have pooped when they were all in there together- there was a lot of poop in the bowl! I haven't given him his formula yet, do I need to wait for him to poop first or just make it now? I'm leaning towards making it now, it's been almost 2 1/2 hours.

Today has been a long day. I didn't sleep at all last night because I was worrying about the babies and of course haven't had time to sleep today. The only thing I've eaten is a handful of Arthur's and Poppet's freeze dried veggies. And I tried one of the pellets.


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## srtiels

OK...go ahead and feed him now. Poor Arthur...he sounds like a good Daddy bird. When the little one poops then go ahead and put him in with Daddy in the nestbox. You can check on him every few hours. In the AM take him out, and if he needs feeding feed him with the additives, and keep him in the box for awhile to monitor poops/digestion.

And try to get some rest for yourself.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty, I got Kieran fed. He was kind of resistant, but I got 1.5 CC into him and then cleaned his mouth with a q tip dipped in AC vinegar. He seems happier now that he's been fed and has taken a little nap and isn't chirping anymore. I only gave him 1.5 CC because I weighed him first and he was 30 grams without that big full crop! Should I wait a couple hours and then give him 3 CCs and put him back in the nest box, or just wait until he poops and put him back in the nest box? I think he'd benefit from being back with his parents and siblings, poor baby is tired. 

I checked the other babies. They're all nicely fed with nice feeling crops and are napping. Mama and daddy are eating. I hope their crops actually ARE nice, I feel like I have no idea what they're supposed to feel like, but they're emptying at least!

Also, should I continue to put vinegar in the parents' water? I just washed their bowls and gave them plain bottled water this time.

I feel so guilty. I hope everyone pulls through okay. If I hadn't given them so much bread, this probably wouldn't have happened. At least we know what the likely culprit was so it hopefully won't happen again. Kieran is admittedly my favorite little chicky and I don't want anything bad to happen to him. Well, anything WORSE. He was the first to hatch and I was soooo excited, I cried when he hatched. I've loved watching him grow this past week and a half!


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## roxy culver

Can I just say that I've loved watching him grow with you from my computer screen and that you are doing your absolute best to help him pull through? You are so dedicated, I love it!  I'm praying all is well with your bunch and will keep reading. I'm learning so much myself just reading as you learn. Keeping fingers crossed for you!!!


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## srtiels

I have to totally agree with Roxy! You are doing an awesome job.

Yes wait...then feed and put him in the nestbox. He'll be happier suggled with his clutchmates. By the AM he should be emptied. If you see food in him you cvan proably tell if it is parent fed or not in the AM.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks guys  And thanks so much for all the help, I probably wouldn't have figured out there was something wrong with Kieran for a while yet. I will feed him in a couple hours, then put him back in the nest box. Then take him out in the morning! 

I forgot to mention this before- when Kieran was swallowing his food, I could hear what sounded like his tummy growling. Is this normal? I'm pretty certain he wasn't choking on food or anything. I think he's getting hungry again too, he made his baby dinosaur sound when I peeked at him in the cardboard box.


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## Berdnerd

Kieran is hungry. I took his bowl out of the cardboard box and he squealed and stood up as tall as he could (which is like 6 inches) and begged for food. I'm going to wait longer though. How should his crop feel at this point? It feels like a bubble. I gently squeezed it and felt gurgling. I hope he poops soon. I got a pretty cute picture of him standing at his full height in front of my fiance who was making a face, but the camera didn't have the memory card in it 

I'm going to feed him at midnight, which is in an hour and 20 minutes. Or maybe I'll just wait until 11:30. It will have been approximately 3 hours since he was fed before if I wait until midnight. I'm trying to get his crop to empty. It did actually feel pretty empty I guess, but it has air in it. I don't really know how to tell these things! I'll put him back in the nest box after being fed, even if he hasn't pooped yet. Hopefully he'll do that before the next feeding!


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## Berdnerd

Hooray! He pooped! He's screaming at me for food too so I'm going to go make him his dinner, then back to the nest box he goes


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## Berdnerd

Okay, he has been fed! I can't believe it took me 1 hour to get everything ready, feed, and clean up after 1 baby bird. Well, I did take the others out of the nest box and clean them up too. Kieran got 2 CCs of formula. He was acting like he didn't want to take anymore so I stopped there. I put him back in the nest box and I hear baby bird feeding noises, maybe mom or dad is topping him off.


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## Jenny10

Berdnerd, I also agree with what Roxy said, I am to reading, and although I don’t always comment because I don’t want it to look like someone has given you advise when I don’t have advise to give, but I am also taking notes on the things Susanne is advising to further my own knowledge as well as watch the progress of your little ones.

You are doing a great job being foster mum/dad for the little ones


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## srtiels

Good Morning. I hope all the little ones are doing great.

Ok...you mentioned the air/bubble a couple of times with Kierans crop. If you can get some good close-up pix of it that would be great. It could be from 2 things: as he cries he could be gulping in eair...or the thing used to empty the crop is called a feeding needle, it could had slightly punctured some of the interior crop tissue near and air sac.


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## liltweets

How are your little ones today? I've been following the thread and I've been praying for your babies. They are just so precious. You're such a good birdy mom.


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## Berdnerd

Sorry guys, I just woke up like half an hour ago. I slept for about 11 hours. Thank you for the kind words and good wishes for the chicks. I don't feel like I deserve kind words since I slept so long, I didn't think I would sleep that long and should have set an alarm 

Kieran was last fed by me a bit over 12 hours ago and has been in the nestbox with everyone else since. I feel like a dolt for sleeping so long with sick birdies. The first thing I did was check on everyone and take a video of the chicks, which is currently loading. It will undoubtedly take a while to load because Photobucket likes to take its sweet time.

I'm afraid Kieran probably still has it and it seems like Teddy's crop is kind of water balloony too. Kieran's crop isn't as full and water balloon like as yesterday... but... well, you'll see in the video and can tell me. I wish I knew what a healthy crop feels like, it seems like I only know unhealthy ones! Neeja and Phoenix's crops seem okay. When I checked them a few minutes ago, their crops were about half full, maybe a tad more. The contents aren't doughy but not water balloon like either. I was going to grab them to feed them all while they're still begging for food, but thought it would be better for Susanne to see the video.

I got weights on everyone and of course didn't write them down while I was doing it and can't remember Neeja's quite perfectly. Kieran: 38 g, Teddy 38 g, Neeja either 30g or 33 g, and Phoenix 18 g. Phoenix has gained 5 since yesterday and Neeja has gained either 5 or 8. Kieran is up 8 grams since I weighed him before feeding him the first formula feeding yesterday (his crop was essentially empty as it was after he'd been emptied and he'd only had the alka selzer) but down 5 g since he was weighed Wednesday night (But we know he was sick then). Teddy is up 5 g from the day before yesterday.


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## liltweets

I don't know a thing about crops but I'm sure Susanne will be along soon.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I know how worrisome it must be. Try not to beat yourself up for resting, you needed it. (I know it's hard, when mine were so sick I barely slept either).
hugs


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## Berdnerd

Great. I found this page of Susanne's: http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/...rds/Babies in Trouble/Yeast-buildup-illus.jpg

Yesterday after Kieran's crop was emptied, I could definitely feel knots in the base of his crop and didn't know what it was. Since we know he has yeast in there, why did the vet think it was enough to simply empty the crop contents and tell me to feed him a little vinegar water twice a day?

The chicks are still in the nest. The cardboard box brooder is taking forever to warm up. I heard them being fed.


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## Berdnerd

Alright, finally, here is the video from an hour ago. The first chick is Kieran, then Teddy, then Neeja, then Phoenix. Susanne, when you read this, could you kindly go back a few posts because I posted a bit more earlier on.


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## srtiels

OK...if you felt the knots in the base of his crop it is defintely a build-up of yeast. The inside of the crop will be like the 2nd pix....with most of the buildup down near the lower part of the crop.

If the crop starts to look like the first pix...this is a very Critical condition, because when the veins are enlarged, red, and very visible they will be absorbing the pathogens in the crop thru their vacula walls and it gets into the bloodstream of the bird. This is called an infection going systemic (sdimple terms)

OK...since you suspect from what your are describing that there is a yeast problem, what I would do is dissolve 1 Capryl in 5cc of water in a small jar or medication/pill container.

You will have to empty the crop, if the crop is slow moving and not emptying. If it is almost empty then feed the baby 1/2cc of the Capryl and massage the crop skin to work it around in the crop to make contact with the affected area. Let the Capryl set in the crop for 15-20 min, and then feed the baby just a few cc of formal with alo=ittle yogurt and a pinch of garlic (or spice remedy) mixed in. You may have to give the capryl prior to each feeding for the next few days.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, should I leave him in the heated cardboard box for a few hours to see if he's emptying and then do the Capryl or just empty his crop? What should I do about Teddy? 

The brooder is warming up well with the heating pad, it's at 90 degrees now.

Also were you able to see the earlier posts about their weights etc and see the video? Thanks so much for helping!


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## srtiels

I just looked at the video. Kieran has not improved at all, and he is starting to look dehydrated. How he can become dehydrated is the proventriculus regurgitates fluid from the body and GI tract which is contributing to the excess fluid in the crop. He still has some crop muscle tone and I could see the muscles trying to churn the food alittle. BUT the acidity in the crop is going to break down the muscles and make them not function like they should. For now, NO ACV at all. 

For Hydration you can make your own Homemade electrolytes. This will be used as the fluid to mix any formula fed.
--------------------------------------------
*Home Made Lactated Ringers
**Electrolyte solution for re-hydration
*
*Mix the following in a jar:*

*8 oz. of warm water

½ Tablespoon of sugar

1/8 teaspoon of salt

1/8 teaspoon of baking soda

Still well, and refrigerate. This solution is good for 2-3 days when mixed.*

----------------------------------------------------------------------

OK...back to the healthfood store for a herbal extract: Pau d'Arco. Add 1 drop of this every other feeding. This is in addition to the other things you are adding. You can also put 5-6 drops (shake jar well) in the parents drinking water too, change 2-3 times a day for a week or so. There is a possibility that they might have a low grade yeast infection and passing yeast as they regurgitate to feed the babies.

Now here is the hard part. If Kieran is not emptying very well you will have to empty his crop prior to the next feeding. If not done the new food is going to get contaminated by the old food, and this can lead to total GI stasis (this is when digestion completely stops)

If Teddys crop is starting to look like Kirans you might want to empty him to. The sooner he is treated the quicker he can be tirned around. The other two look fine right now, but I would also give them 1/4cc of the Capryl water 3 X a day, if they are going to be left in the nest.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the update, Susanne. Poor babies. This is a nightmare, isn't it? I will go to health store and buy those drops. 

Should I empty Kieran's crop or put him in the cardboard box and give it time to empty on its own? Should I put Teddy in the box too? 

I will give everyone the Capryl water. 1/4 or 1/2 CC? Is it 1/2 CC for Kieran and Teddy and 1/4 for the others? You wrote both and I just wan to give the right amount. Should I still give Phoenix and Neeja the 2 feedings of formula every day? And most important of all, do I need to remove Teddy and Kieran completely from the nest box for the next few days and keep them in a brooder so I will be the only one feeding them? If I need to do that, I'll need tips on how often to feed them and everything.

I should probably call you so we can interact 1 to 1 instead of typing everything!


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## srtiels

_*Should I empty Kieran's crop or put him in the cardboard box and give it time to empty on its own? Should I put Teddy in the box too? 
------------------------------------------------*_
Yes...I would put both in the box for monitoring. 

*I will give everyone the Capryl water. 1/4 or 1/2 CC? Is it 1/2 CC for Kieran and Teddy and 1/4 for the others?*
*-------------------------------*
Yes

Let see how they do over the next few hours before we see if you need to keep them in the box or return them.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the update, Susanne! I got the Pau d'arco. I'm so glad there's a health food store next door since I don't drive. They know me by name now! Before the birdies got sick, I would go in sometimes to get a drink or something and bring one of my bunnies with me. 

I have Kieran and Teddy in the brooder box. I could hear Arthur feeding so grabbed them out- Kieran has food on his beak so he must have been fed some, but at least they're out now. I put the snuggle safe in the box to bring up the temperature faster.

I think I need to empty Teddy too. His crop definitely isn't as full as Kieran's but it feels almost the same. I can see by looking at him that poor Kieran is dehydrated. I'm ready to empty them as soon as you tell me how- do I just hold them upside down and squeeze the crop from the bottom up? Do I make them open their mouths? I'm so nervous, but I know Kieran will die if he isn't cleaned out. I can see some angry red veins at the top of his crop  

Also, if it helps, I actually DO have lactated ringers and needles and syringes for giving subcutaneous fluids. I keep them on hand in case my bunnies need it. I've only given fluids to rabbits before so my needles are probably bigger than baby birds need. My needles are 19 gauge and sterile syringes are 60 mL. For giving them formula/Capryl water I would prefer to make up my own electrolyte solution than opening up the giant bag of lactated ringers because it's the only bag I have. I actually also have unflavored Pedialyte.

When I give them Capryl water, do I use the electrolyte solution or Pedialyte instead of water?


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I got Kieran's and Teddy's crops emptied after calling Susanne so she could tell me how to do it! It was wayyyy less traumatic for them than when the vet emptied Kieran's. Kieran kind of coughed a couple times and held out his wings for a few seconds, but nothing like the 20 minutes yesterday  And Teddy's was even easier. His crop had a lot less in it than Kieran's. They are both now begging for food. I'm about to syringe them the Cypral water and massage their crops.


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## Berdnerd

I gave the babies the Capryl and massaged their crops gently, then Teddy regurgitated some more baby food. I thought I did a pretty good job of emptying him. Why did he regurgitate?

What should I do now?


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## srtiels

Why did he regurgitate?
---------------------------

One possibility, if you are sure he was emptied is the proventriculus regurgitating back fluids from the body. he may also have to be Sub-Q'd if he starts to show signs of dehydrating.

OK...If you have some ground Ginger (the spice) Mix some in his formula...or if he has already been fed. a pinch in a small amount of water and feed him about 1/4cc of the ginger fluid. Ginger has a soothing effect on the crop and GI tract and it will settle things so that he doesn't vomit food back up.

Sounds like you are doing a GREAT job with your sweeties


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## Berdnerd

I tried to give the Capryl to Neeja and Phoenix. I only got a tiny bit into each because their crops were full.

I'm about to try to handfeed Kieran and Teddy. After I handfeed them, how long should I wait to do it again? Then how long until I feed them again after that? When do I know it's safe to put them back in the nest box? How much would you advise giving them each feeding considering they weigh approximately 30 g each after having their crops emptied? I know it's normally .1 CC per gram, but since they just had their crops emptied I don't want to over do it.

Also, I just realized I have 9 sterile 1 CC insulin syringes! Hooray! I can use them to give fluids to Kieran. I won't be able to give more than 1 CC in each spot because of that. I only really feel comfortable doing it in his thigh area (putting it in his back seems so scary!), will 1 CC in each thigh area be okay? 

Also Teddy is not looking dehydrated and isn't regurgitating anymore. He's sleepin'.


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## Berdnerd

I fed Kieran and Teddy. Kieran didn't want to eat. Teddy eagerly ate about 1.5 CCs. I weighed them after feeding... Kieran has dropped to 27 g. I'm sure a lot of that was his crop, but that's still less than Neeja who weighs at least 30 g with a crop of food.


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## Berdnerd

I gave Kieran sub q fluids. I only got .75 CC on one side and .5 on the other because the skin looked like it was going to pop. Poor Kieran cried when I pricked his skin with the needle and my fiance had to hold onto him to keep him from moving because he was trying to get away  The fluids got absorbed within about 5 minutes! After giving him fluids, he coughed and coughed and started turning purple. I thought he was going to die in my hands. I certainly didn't stick the needle in far (it was just under the skin) and aimed towards the back like Susanne said, but I think he was leaning on his crop and breathed in some food  

When I went to put him back in the brooder, I found that Teddy had regurgitated again. It was formula colored this time, which I guess is better than it being pink since it means his crop was empty. Teddy has pooped 2 times since being in the brooder (1 long worm poop and 1 that looks like adult bird poop- the adult bird poop one was a while after being fed). Kieran actually pooped on my hand about 45 minutes after getting sub q fluids. It was tiny, but looked great and had urine in it.

I forgot to say before, but the crop contents of both chicks smelled sour. Kieran's was more sour, but his crop was also fuller so there was more.

Avert your eyes if you don't want to see, but here is the crop contents of both birds. It's pink because of the red pellets the parents fed them. They were fed seeds too.

As you can see, Kieran's had a bit of foam- that was the first that came out. There's also a mucousy part that's reminiscent of raw egg white in texture. Kieran's:









Teddy's wasn't foamy or mucousy and like I said before, it didn't smell as sour.Teddy's:









Sad, sad Kieran after I fed him 1.5 CC:


















Sad Teddy after being fed 1.5 CC:



























Okay, important question here... If I return them to the nest box, will the infection pass to Phoenix and Neeja?


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## Berdnerd

Kieran pooped 3 times since getting fluids, each one bigger than the last and they all looked good. His color has improved a little. I decided to try giving sub q fluids again, and was extra careful not to touch his crop so he wouldn't choke, but he began to make choking sounds again as soon as I started to inject the fluids. I had the needle barely under the skin and pointing towards his butt on both of his sides, and then I tried doing it on his back, too (this time needle point towards the front). These are all ways Susanne told me on the phone to do it, but he made the choking sounds! What is happening? I stopped injecting as soon as he began to choke so he only got like .2 CC total  His crop doesn't look any less empty unfortunately, and Teddy's only looks a little emptier. They were fed about 4 1/2 hours ago. I don't know what to do except keep them warm until Susanne checks in in the morning.


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## Berdnerd

Please don't judge me harshly for this, but I don't want to do anything else to Kieran. It breaks my heart so see him suffer so much from everything that's happened to him in the past couple of days. I'm crying my eyes out. It would be worth it if he was getting better, but he's getting worse. He's had his crop emptied twice and choked while doing it, had it massaged, been fed stuff he doesn't want to eat, been stuck with needles, been kept away from the comfort of his parents and siblings. His crop looks as full now as it did 8 hours ago, and all he's been fed is about 1 CC of liquid and 1 1/2 CC of formula. You can see his runny crop contents through his skin. I just had him out of the brooder to look at him, and he was fighting so much. Flailing around, crying, stretching his neck, trying to regurgitate, and he's so dehydrated and raisin-like. He looks like he's in agony. I feel like anything else I do to him will just be torturous and prolonging his horrible death. If it were possible to do so humanely, I'd rather have him euthanized than continue to feel such pain. I love him a ton and wish he'd been born to a more experienced owner in a place where there were lots of avian vets (the avian vet in my town is down in the south helping save animals from the oil spill). It's so unfair to him.

Teddy is not as bad yet. His crop is not as full (though it is fuller than it should be based on how much he's been fed). He doesn't really look dehydrated yet. He doesn't have angry red veins on his crop yet. He has regurgitated several times, but not in the past few hours. I'm willing to try to do some more to save him.

Neeja I fear is sick too. Phoenix still looks okay.

If I put the chicks back in the nest box, will they be a danger to the other chicks because of their illness? I'm sure Arthur and Poppet will feed them- if they regurgitate, will the vomit be harmful to the other babies?

I'm so, so, so sorry it is ending this way for my sweet baby Kieran. I feel like he's been here so much longer than 11 days. Back before the chicks hatched, I said I'd be happy if just 1 made it to adulthood. Now that they're here and are active little beings that I've become very attached to, the idea of losing all but 1 is horrible. I think I'll be lucky now if even 1 makes it. I'm so sorry babies, you don't deserve this.


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## Jenny10

So sorry to hear you are feeling so deflated at the moment but don’t give up on them, I am sure they would rather choke a little and make it to adult hood, I don’t know but I am sure Susanne will say, but have you tried smaller feedings I think I read that if the feedings are smaller the crop empties quicker and sometimes if the crop is being filled to much it can cause problems itself, its worth a shot, feed smaller and more often if need be.

But don’t give up, I Know it can be hard to think he is suffering but life is better than death, and only give up when all fight as gone from the bird.

Sorry if I sound dramatic and I will send positive fighting thoughts your way.

Jenny


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## srtiels

OK...from my personal experience they will not pass yeast between them.

((((HUGS))) Poor Kieran. He is not looking good.

If you have a good relationship with your pet rabbit vet, he might he able to help. I'm suspecting in addition to yeast Keiran may have a secondary Bacterial infection and may need to be given a broad spectrum antibiotic.

Teddy looks alot better. If the other 2 are digesting fine in the nest with the parents then let parents care for them.

Keiran may have to be kept empty, Not fed, and just be Sub-Q only. Your rabbet vet may be able to mix up a solution of Lactated Ringers with 5% dextrose.


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## srtiels

Ok...part of the throwing up would be a bacterial infection. If your rabbit vet has Cephalexin (Keflex) That is the BEST med for your little one. I have seen dramatic turnarounds with it....ususally within the first to 2nd dosage.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, unfortunately, my rabbit vet (who also treats birds, she loves birds actually and wants to become specifically an avian vet) is down in Louisiana treating animals from the oil spill. The vet I used to take the bunnies to sees birds too and saw Arthur and Poppet a year ago, but she is out of the office until Monday. If I take him back to the vet, we would have to see the same woman we saw yesterday. I don't know if she'll be in today since it's Saturday. I don't want her to hurt Kieran again with that tool. She seems to know nothing about birds (she sent me home with 1 syringe that didn't even have measurements on it to dose all 4 birds with vinegar water and didn't even tell me how to give it to them or to wash the syringe, thankfully I know better) and doesn't seem willing to learn.

Susanne, what antibiotic would you suggest? Maybe I can get the vet on the phone and make her promise to prescribe that antibiotic and not even have to bring him in. We could just go pick it up. Also, do you have any explanation for why he was choking whenever I injected him with fluids?

Jenny, of course life is better than death, and if I thought he would make it, I wouldn't be giving up on him. He's been fed small amounts- about 1- 1.5 CC of formula is all since I emptied his crop hours and hours ago. His crop is full to the top with goo now and he's trying to regurgitate/swallowing repeatedly. It would be kinder to euthanize him now than make him suffer for days before finally dying. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I'm glad not everyone has the same opinion, but I feel it would be better for him to die now rather than suffer endlessly before dying.

EDIT: Susanne, you posted while I was typing- let me type up a reply to what you wrote about the Keflex!


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, would the Keflex be just for Teddy since he's the one throwing up? Kieran has not actually succeeded in vomiting, though he's moving his neck like he wants to. What med would Kieran need for the yeast/bacterial infection?

Wish it wasn't Saturday, the vet doesn't open for 6 more hours


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## Jenny10

I am so sorry to hear Kieran is very poorly, I am in no way judging, I was only trying to lift spirits, but if the kindest thing is to let him go then that is a decision only you can make, what with you being there and seeing the suffering.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for being understanding, Jenny. I apologize if I sounded terse- I love the chickies and would do anything to save Kieran or at least make his death a peaceful one. I'm not taking the decision lightly. Watching your beloved pet suffer, even one you've only had for 12 days, is so hard.


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## Jenny10

I can understand the bond, I did try to hand rear a wild bird the cat had brought in, I had the bird 5 days and it was doing well, but one of my cats got it when I went out and I was devastated when I returned to see the little baby on the hallway floor dead, I literally broke down in tears, I only knew that little bird a short time, but I had become its mum and the bond was very strong.


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## srtiels

((((HUGS)))) This type of crop problem is so devastating because it can be so hard to turn around. I was hoping that we got it in time, but it must've been grabbing hold in his system before we realized it.

I can understand the bond to. When I was breeding tiels along the way there were the memorable ones that I had to really work on and fight to save.

I am now breeding mousebirds, and knock on wood, they do not get crop problems (don't have a crop) or yeast. They are a tough little bird and I have yet to run into any health concerns when handfeeding like I did when I handfeed tiels.


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## srtiels

Berdnerd said:


> Susanne, would the Keflex be just for Teddy since he's the one throwing up? Kieran has not actually succeeded in vomiting, though he's moving his neck like he wants to. What med would Kieran need for the yeast/bacterial infection?
> 
> Wish it wasn't Saturday, the vet doesn't open for 6 more hours


 --------------------------------------------

Yes...I'd ask the vet to put both of them on it. Possibly this vet may also have Nystatin...or preferrably Diflucan on hand. Nystatin is a contact antifungal, meaning it is not absorbed in the system. This is fine for yest on the surface of tissue, but not if it has been absorbed into the bloodsteam. Diflucan is for systemic yeast.

Of all the anitbiotic the Keflex has the quickest turn around and from experience is radidly absorbed into the tissue thru the GI tract and goes to work.

If the vet does not have either meds on hand, they are human drugs, and he can phone in a prescription to your pharmacy, which it would be under the pets name, because they have to have a name to puut on the label.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks for all the medicine info! I will write it down and take it with me.

The vet does not open for another 4 1/2 hours since it's Saturday. Is there anything I can do for the chicks until then, other than keep them warm in the brooder? Would you suggest emptying Teddy's crop again and putting something in it (like Tums) or not? And for the subcutaneous fluids, do you know why Kieran made choking sounds (like he'd breathed in a liquid) whenever I started to inject the fluid under his skin? He did it on both sides under his wings and on his back, and I had the needle barely under the skin. The first time I injected the fluids anyway and the poor baby coughed and coughed for several minutes after, I thought he was going to die. The second time, I stopped injecting when he started coughing so he got mayyyybe .2 CC total. Not much.

Susanne, do you think there's any hope left for Kieran? If you think there's a reasonable chance he will make it with real medication, I will keep fighting for him. Also, I have both chicks still in the brooder because if we're going to the vet later, I don't want them being fed by the parents.


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## srtiels

and putting something in it (like Tums) or not?
-------------------------------------

The Pink Stuff...Pepto Bismal, 1-2 drops.

Is this the area you were doing the fluids (see pix's) If so there should not be any coughing or spitting up. Could he be crouching down when giving the fluids?...if so the crop could be pressing against your hand or the table top surface and forcing some food up the crop.

If this vet is more receptive then there is some hope. I can't beleive the other vet did not prescribe anything or do much.


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## srtiels

Take some pix's of what both their crops look like now...front and back, and print them to show the vet. Empty box before you go to the vet, and save to show him. he may also be able to do a gram stain:http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/gram-stains.html of it or even the droppings. But the main reason for having him empty is because he is going to be handled and you don't want food gushing up his throat and risk aspiration.

Keep him warm while traveling. You can use a jar of warm water wrapped in a towel...or one of those heat activated hand warmers under the bedding, or if you have a rubber glove fill it with warm water (shown)

Here is an article I had written years ago for AFA: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/yeast-problems-with-babies.html


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## Berdnerd

So wait until we're about to go to the vet to empty Teddy's crop and just leave him warm until then? As for Kieran, that is exactly where I injected him. I thought I must have pressed his crop the first time, so when I did it again 3 hours later, I was extra careful not to touch his crop or let him put pressure on it. He was fine (other than crying and trying to get away) when I prickled his skin with the needle, but the second I started injecting fluid, he made like he was breathing in liquid.


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## srtiels

but the second I started injecting fluid, he made like he was breathing in liquid.
----------------------------------------------


Hmmmm...he shouldn't be doing that. If the needle was ained toward the front of the bird at the leg skin...then this would occur...BUT...they would aspirate because it would go into an abdominal air sac on the side of the body.

Is he still pooping? If so that is good, and you may have to use the Ringers defintely as the fluid for mixing the formula for hydration.

And yes, as to emptying right before going to the vet. The other reason why is if the crop starts to fill back up with fluids that means the proventiculus is regurgitating fluids back into the crop, and is also a sign of a bacterial infection internally. The vet may have to start him off with an injectable Baytil while there (.06 per 100 grams of body weight, so he would have to calculate a lower dosage according to his weight)

Lets see what your vet does.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I'm back. Sorry about the lack of updates. I had to get a little sleep. I slept in 30 minute increments using the timer so I could check the chicks really quick (and the temp in the brooder). Teddy pooped a couple of times and walked through it. He's begging for food. Sweet little Kieran is not doing well  He's losing consciousness. When I set him down, he kind of collapsed on his side. Poor baby. 

I can finally call the vet in half an hour when they open. Should I try giving Kieran sub q fluids before then? He's so, so sad to look at and I don't think will last much longer.

I'm going to get the vet on the phone before we go down there. I don't want to stress the chicks by bringing them all the way over there and spend another $150 for her not to do anything helpful for them


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## srtiels

Yes...phone the vet ahead of time, and fully describe the condition, and request to see if he/she can see you ASAP.

OMG..poor Kieran...he does not sound good at all. If the vet has any experience with birds it would be a 10-20% chance of turning him around.

You and the little ones will be in my thoughts.

If he is collapsing on his side he can easily aspirate. You might make a donut shapped ring of paper towels and prop him it it, with his head resting on the top.


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## Berdnerd

Oh, Susanne, I'm sitting here crying my eyes out. I called the vet and I don't think they care 1 tiny bit about my babies. I talked to a receptionist, who copped an attitude with me. I completely described the situation and how serious they are, and she said "If you feel like it, I guess you can bring them in but you'll have to wait until we can work you in and pay the $100 emergency fee." Couldn't even make a special case for my baby birds? I understand the fee. Last time we waited 40 minutes in the waiting room and were gone for 2 hours. The vet we saw Thursday is not in today, but they have another vet in who "sees" birds, not that I'm very confident about her ability based on what I've seen of their other bird vet! I begged her to have the vet call me and the receptionist said MAYBE the vet would call back. I reiterated that the birds are very sick and need help ASAP and asked specifically when the vet would call, and she said MAYBE in an hour or two. I explained that Teddy will die if he doesn't get medicine and that I will be calling back at 11 if I haven't heard from the vet. I understand that vets are busy and probably have a hard time working everyone in, but she can't even spare a 2 minute phone call?! And if I don't even bring the babies in, she wouldn't even have to examine them. Just prescribe medication.


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## srtiels

OK...a possible alternative. Do you have any Wildlife Care Centers or Rehabbers in your area. Many times they also have a vet or a vet tech and are familair with birds...though it would be wild birds...but still there may be someone there to help.


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## srtiels

Also try and see if a local petshop can refer you to a breeder. Or look in the classifieds of birds for sale and you might find a breeder. Most breeders know each other and one may be able to refer you to either another vet or a breeder that is experienced and may be able to look at the babies and see what they casn do. Many times long time experienced breeders will have the meds and supplies on hand needed.


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## srtiels

And a GREAT BIG ((((HUG))) My heart goes out to you and the little ones.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, unfortunately there aren't ANY breeders up here- I live in a town of 35,000 in Alaska. It's the biggest town within several hundred miles. If there were other breeders up here, I would have called them all one by one and begged them to take care of the sick babies since they would have experience  I looked everywhere online and can't find a bird rehabber here.

I'm going to go try to call other vet clinics. I don't know how many are open on Saturday or if they see birds, but it's worth a try, if only for the meds.


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## srtiels

What about your human Dr? In a pinch I have asked my Dr. to prescribe (had to go in) some meds needed, which I used for the birds.

Hopefully you can find another vet who will look at him.


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## srtiels

Also if there is a bird shop that also handfeeds babies they might be able to help or advise.


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## Berdnerd

Kieran just died while I was on the phone with a different vet. My poor baby boy. I'm glad he didn't linger too long.

The new vet (Dr F) said she could prescribe an antibiotic and Nystatin for the chicks. She didn't want to prescribe Diflucan because she said if the illness had gone systemic, nothing would save the chicks anyway. Right after I was on the phone with her, the vet from the original clinic (Dr S, not the vet who saw them on Thursday but from the same clinic) called back. She is much nicer than her receptionist! She said she didn't want to prescribe an antibiotic because it would mess up the good bacteria in them but would prescribe Diflucan. 

Should I take the chicks to Dr F and get an antibiotic (she didn't say which one) and Nystatin, or leave the chicks at home and go to Dr S and only get a prescription for Diflucan? Or should I take the chicks to Dr F so we can get an antibiotic and and prescription for Nystatin, then go pick up the prescription from Diflucan too? It may not be totally honest to get meds from both, but I am fine with doing that if it means my babies will survive. Susanne, I'm going to call you in a few minutes if I don't hear back because I want to get going ASAP.


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## srtiels

OK...I think the antibiotic* is a priority* in deciding which vet. Also ask if you should bring Kieran in, because they may be able to do a necropsy to see what was going on in the crop and GI tract.

(((HUGS))) fly free little one...


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## Berdnerd

Ok, I will take them to Dr F and be sneaky and get the prescription from Dr S too. We will have an antibiotic, Nystatin and Diflucan at the end of this. I will bring Kieran too.

Do you think Arthur and Poppet will abandon the chicks if I take them all away again or will they accept them when I put them back?


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## Berdnerd

Ok Susanne, I called Dr F and she said she only needs to see Teddy. So I will be leaving the other 2 at home with mama and daddy unless you think it would be better for me to bring all 3 so she can look at them all. I will be bringing Kieran too


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## liltweets

I'm so sorry Berdnerd.  You both fought so hard. 
I'm crying with you. hugs

Fly free little Kieran.


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## srtiels

Good luck.

I was searching thru some saved info. Below is some info on Nystatin. BUT Diflucan and Nystatin can be mixed together,,,you might ask about that. If I can find that info to I will post it.
------------------------------
Nystatin is a contact drug. What this means is that it is very effective to any tissues inside the bird it contacts as it goes thru the digestive tract. It is NOT absorbed into the bloodstream thus it is not toxic or life threatening in excess. The only time it can be problematic is thinking that if you give more it will work better. _Wrong._ Always use the prescribed dosage calculated according to the gram weight of the bird. In excess Nystatin can cause abdominal pain, GI upset, and vomiting.

According to the Formulary Chart in the hardcover version of Avian Medicine the dosage is: 1 ml/300 g BID to TID, 7 days. This would scale down to 3/10 ml/cc per 100 grams of body weight. With birds under 100 grams the dosage would be reduced accordingly.

The simplest explanation is that .3 on a 1cc/ml syringe would be 30 small lines up from the bottom of the syringe on a 100 gram bird. If the bird is 50 grams you would half this dosage, counting 15 lines up from the bottom of a 1 cc/mI syringe, etc.

When using an antifungal always remember to *go the fully prescribed *days of treatment. Do not stop earlier because the bird is looking or acting better. When not going the prescribed days of treatment, many times if the problem re‑occurs you can be faced with a more resistant form of yeast (or bacteria, if antibiotics are used) which requires a stronger and systemic medication/treatment.


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## srtiels

good site to read: http://www.exoticpetvet.net/ She is a well-known avian vet...And quite possibly she might do a phone consult with your vet. I have to look on her site...it was where the info of Diflucan and Nystatin were mixed together, why and other info.

In the index is a page: Avian Medications: A to Z that might also be helpful to a vet as far as meds, etc. And she has a link: VET TO VET that may be of interest to another vet wanting to learn more on birds.


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## Berdnerd

We are back from both vets! I ended up taking Teddy and Neeja and left Phoenix in the nest box. I was worried because Phoenix's crop was empty when we left, and still empty when we got home, but I just heard lots of baby bird eating noises and peeked in on Phoenix and his crop has been filled. I really hope they don't abandon the 1 healthy chick! I'm worried about him getting chilled in there alone, both parents are out and eating again.

Dr F looked over Teddy and Neeja. I did not get the impression that she knows a lot about cockatiels. First she said that Teddy's crop was only full of air (no food) and his air sac had been ruptured, but when she was palpating his crop, he regurgitated everywhere proving that one wrong. Then she said his crop was stuffed with food and I'd fed him way too much. She berated me for feeding Kieran and Teddy 1.5 CCs and said that's way too much for them to handle at their ages, even though for their weights 3-4 CCs is appropriate. She said .25-.5 CC every half hour was what a chick his age (10 days) should be fed. I don't think so. She also didn't want to empty his crop and said that it would be better to wait and let him try to digest since I fed him so much (1.5 CC 18 hours ago!) because it takes a long time to digest that much. I am very skeptical. As for Neeja, she said he's beginning to get sour crop. For some reason she didn't believe me about the chicks weights and was thinking I must mean milligrams. Seriously??

In any case, she advised to keep both chicks out of the nest box and leave them until their crops empty completely before feeding .5 CC at a time, waiting for the crop to empty before feeding again and to feed formula so thin that it's like water. Susanne, what would you advise? I think waiting until the crop empties sounds like a good plan but am skeptical of only .5 CC at a time. Maybe for the first feeding after their crops are empty, but then go up to .75 or 1 CC?

As for medication, Dr F gave me Keflex capsules. Each capsule is 250 mg. The concentration (I think that's what this is) is 100 mg/kg or .01 mg/100g. She said because the babies are so tiny, to only give each one the teeniest little pinch of powder dissolved in a couple of drops of water and to do this every 6 hours for 10 days for all 10 chicks. Does this sound good to you, Susanne? 

I picked up prescriptions for Fluconazole from Dr S and Nystatin from Dr F but don't know the dosage amounts yet. My fiance left to get the prescriptions. Is Fluconazole okay instead of Diflucan? According to that website you linked, it is also an anti yeast med. Should I use the Nystatin or Fluconazole? Also, the vet only had gel form bird BeneBac. Is this okay to give the chicks instead of the powder? How do I give it? Can I just mix it up in some Pedialyte?

Thanks, I know this is a lot of questions!


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## srtiels

_*she advised to keep both chicks out of the nest box and leave them until their crops empty completely before feeding .5 CC at a time, waiting for the crop to empty before feeding again and to feed formula so thin that it's like water.*_
*-----------------------------------------*
OK...do you think the crops are going to empty on their own? I would first put them in the box with heat and a paper towel under them to see if they are pooping at all. If they are pooping there is some digestion. the problem with what is in the crop is if it is soured or not. if soured it would have to come out. The other problem is that if they are digesting they are not going to get the full benefit of the meds. If some digestion then the game plan would be after their empty the meds first with a small amount of dilute formula....just to get it in them. Wait 1/2 an hour and then feed 10% body weight. Hopefully the delay prior to feeding would allow some meds to either get digested or absorbed thru the skin to get working. From what she is desrcibing on the amounts and frequencies to feed it appears her experiences are with wild baby birds, which don't have a crop to hold food. 

Do the Keflex as she described. I have done it that way and it was effective.

OK...Fluconazole is another name for Diflucan. If there is not dosages given on the scrip when you get it let me know if it is the 100 or 200 mg pink pill. And also how much Nystation you receive.

*gel form bird BeneBac. Is this okay to give the chicks instead of the powder? How do I give it? Can I just mix it up in some Pedialyte?*

Yes, you can use a little and dissolve it in a few drops of water or Pedialyte and use.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Susanne. My fiance is still out getting the prescriptions. I think the best thing to do is to empty at least Teddy's crop and do the meds. Neither has pooped in at least 3 1/2 hours! Do you think I should empty both or give Neeja his medicine and then give him a chance to digest what's in his crop? Both babies are crying in hunger.

I just heard tons of baby bird feeding sounds, which is a little disturbing since Phoenix is the only chick left in the nest box and his crop was ALREADY full when I checked on him 45 minutes ago. I'm sure Arthur and Poppet are missing the other babies, but they really need to get BACK in the nest box to keep Phoenix warm! He's been alone in there except for when they go in to stuff more food into him  When I went to check on him 45 minutes ago, he was not as warm as he would have been if he'd been with the other chicks.


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## srtiels

_*I think the best thing to do is to empty at least Teddy's crop and do the meds. Neither has pooped in at least 3 1/2 hours! Do you think I should empty both or give Neeja his medicine and then give him a chance to digest what's in his crop? Both babies are crying in hunger.*_
_*-----------------------------------------------*_

If the crop has not gotten smaller in the past 3.5 hours I agree, I would empty them. Give the meds to each and wait about 20-30 minutes, and mix up some formula, normal thickness with some benebac added and feed them.

Poor babies...my heart goes out to them

Keep an eye on the little one in the nest that they don't overfeed him. If they are not going in the box much, if you have an extra heating pad you can wrap it around the sides of the nestbox and use a bungee cord to hold it on.


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## Berdnerd

I'm pretty sure Arthur and Poppet ARE overfeeding him. They've been going in there and I hear tons of baby bird eating noises. Why is everything going wrong?

To make it all worse, my fiance just got home with the prescription for Fluconazole. The pharmacy made a huuuuuge mistake! They gave him 3 gigantic bottles! Enough to dose a few thousand cockatiels! It says on the bottle to give each chick 5 ml twice a day- yeah right! On the instructions from the vet, it says .1 ml twice a day. This medicine cost $130! I called the vet to discuss the medicine, but I got the rude receptionist. She said she'd have the vet call me back, but they close in 40 minutes and are closed tomorrow and Monday. Wow. Just... wow. And my fiance didn't get the Nystatin.


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## srtiels

Yikes! All you would need is 1-2 Diflucan pills. Was it already diluted (liquid) or was it in the pill form?


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## Berdnerd

It's in liquid form. I'm supposed to dilute it 1 part medicine, 9 parts water, too! Agh!


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## srtiels

Is there a phone # for the pharmacy on the jar? If so you would need to phone the phamacist to find out how they mixed this. If a 100mg tablet was used it would have been diluted with 20cc of water. Dosage is .05 per 100 gram of body weight. So if the baby weighs less this would be reduced.

You need to find out the Mg tablet strength used, and how much water was used per tablet. 

If you have 3 bottles the pharmcey F***** up and I would return it, and ask for it in tablet form to mix _*as needed. *_

Already mixed it is only good for 10 or so days and MUST be refrigerated.


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## Berdnerd

Small update: I have emptied Teddy's and Neeja's crops, filled them with Alka Seltzer water, emptied them again, and gave Teddy sub q fluids. He pooped right before I gave him fluids!

I'm about to give them medication, then let them sit for half an hour and feed them runny formula with Benebac in it.


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## Jenny10

I am so sorry for your loss of little Kieran, reading with tears in my eye’s I so wanted things to turn around for you and the little ones, big hugs and try and stay strong for the others, you are doing all you can and that is all you can do.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Jenny  Thanks to Susanne and everyone else, too. I was just bawling my eyes out over Kieran earlier... If I didn't "sound" sad when I shared that he'd died, it's not that I wasn't- it was just that I had a vet appointment to make and wanted to get going ASAP so Kieran's siblings would have a better chance at surviving. I'm so sad Kieran is gone. I was incredibly excited when I saw that his egg was fertile, and when I could see him moving inside, and when I heard him start to chirp was one of the most exciting things I've ever experienced. I cried tears of joy when he hatched and I found him nestled under his mama. Maybe it was naive of me to expect it, but I thought I would get to watch him grow up and that he'd be my little buddy and we'd have the next 20 or so years together. He was doing SO well at first- Arthur and Poppet were fantastic parents, he was growing great. At times I thought Teddy and Phoenix probably wouldn't make it, but I never thought Kieran would die.

I have medicated all 3 chicks, then waited half an hour and fed Teddy and Neeja .5 CC each of watered down formula made with electrolyte solution and with some BeneBac added. This feeding went smoother than any other- it didn't take me half an hour to get the formula to the right temperature, and the chicks helped GREATLY by actually wanting to be fed! Yay for feeding response! They both wanted more, but I didn't give them more because I want them to try to digest what they have first. I fed them an hour ago and they're taking a nap. 

Good news is Teddy's crop is smaller than it was this morning and yesterday. I'm sure that's because he wasn't full of formula that wasn't digesting, but still. I'm going to see about feeding them again in about an hour, probably .5 CC again.

Bad news is I think Arthur and Poppet may be overfeeding Phoenix. They're feeding him a lot and his crop is pretty big (I know that as of this afternoon when it was empty, it was nice and flat), but maybe it's normal? I keep waffling between pulling him or not. I'm afraid Arthur and Poppet will not be interested in the chicks if they're out of the nest box for a while and I'll need to hand raise them, which most likely will not be successful based on my luck so far. Then again, if I wait until tomorrow to pull Phoenix, his crop may be way over stretched and he'll have to join my other sickies 

Susanne, what are the chances that Arthur and Poppet will accept the chicks back in a few days if they go chickless for a little while?


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, can you tell me how to make crop bras? Do my babies need them? I think they could benefit them. Are there dangers to them?


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## Berdnerd

I decided to put Phoenix in the brooder for the night. His crop is so full. This is what it looks like:


















It doesn't feel watery (yet?) but I just wanted to pull him and have srtiels take a look at him. I didn't want to leave him with his parents longer in case the next few hours are the difference between healthy baby and baby with over stretched crop. I'm hoping srtiels will take a look and say I can return him to the nest box. Arthur and Poppet seemed quite upset to be without babies- I took him when they were gone from the nest, and a few minutes later when they went to check on him, I could hear Arthur flailing around the nest box  Poor guys. 

I gave Teddy more sub q fluids at midnight. Only about .3 CC per side. It's so heartbreaking doing it, he hates it... 

I also fed Teddy and Neeja a watered down formula made from the Electrolyte solution with added BeneBac at 12:30 my time. They were fed the same thing at 8:30, so about 4 hours earlier. Their crops did look like they got smaller to me but they weren't completely empty since they're overstretched. Both chicks DEFINITELY know where they can get food from now and are pretty easy to feed, thank goodness. If only their crops would empty properly!


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## srtiels

OK...Phoenix looks great and his crop is good sized for his age, so I would let the parents have him. The will start adjusting how much they eat according to the babies in the box.

If the other 2 are digesting and pooping, quite possibly you can just pull them to medicate them when needed and let the parents feed?


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## srtiels

Berdnerd said:


> Susanne, can you tell me how to make crop bras? Do my babies need them? I think they could benefit them. Are there dangers to them?


 -------------------------------------------

Below I will add the info needed and pix for a crop bra. First you'll need to take some pix of their crops full and empty...preferably side veiw to see if they really need one.
-------------------------------------

Shown is a pattern to make a crop bra. You can find the Vet Wrap or Co-Flex at most feed stores. It is a very thin flexible _self adhesive_ bandaging material. Use sharp scissors to cut the material to size. The size shown is ‘_an approx. _for 2 1/2 to 3 week old babies. The size would be smaller for smaller babies.

*Before you begin check to *make sure that *the crop is empty* before fitting the crop bra to the bird. If there is old or sour food in the crop you need to empty this out of the crop. An empty crop also reduces any risk of aspirating the chick, especially if it is struggling while fitting the crop bra.

I’ve found that sometimes the bandage doesn’t want to stay self adhered where pressed together. Then I will just loosely tie and knot the straps. First tie the long straps (which are the long parts of the H) *under and behind the wings*. The bottom part will be resting on the abdomen area, right behind the crop by a 1/2" Do not tie too tight. You just want it snug. Next tie off the front straps *in front of the shoulder and at the base of the back of the neck*, leaving just enough slack to form a *slight* _sling_ where the crop area is at. You want the bra fitted so that it will hold the crop tissue up *above the opening* into the body at the base of the crop. 

Let the baby get used to this before you feed him. I have seen babies fight it and flip over backwards and look like bucking bronco's until they are used to this. 

You will not be feeding as much as you normally do. The first few days you will be feeding less but more often. The goal is to have good digestion and to support the stretched crop skin so that it can start shrinking back to normal. If the crop is not fully emptying between feedings, empty what you can before feeding fresh food. **Special Note:* *When you have an overstretched crop *never use* ACV (vinegar) as a flush or in the formula. The acidity tends to hinder the tissues from shrinking.

As the baby grows check the tightness of the ties. Adjust if needed. If the baby is growing quickly cut and fit a new crop bra. Some babies only need the bra for a week, some take 2 weeks or more to have the crop tissue go back to normal. For the first few days after the crop bra is removed try to feed less more often so that you don’t stretch the healed tissue. You will notice that the crop is working fine because if you watch it you will notice it moving and churning the food. This is called _peristaltic_ actions or waves. What is going on is the muscles are churning the food to deliver it into the _cervical esophagus_ which is the opening to the digestive tract at the base of the crop. Movement should be noted every 10-15 sec. The crop itself is simply a reservoir for holding food.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks for the info about the crop bra! Unfortunately today is the 4th of July so I won't be able to get any vet wrap today 

I will put Phoenix back in with mom and dad then. I was just worried so I pulled him. He's been out of the nest box for almost exactly 3 hours. How much should his crop have emptied in this time? I know that 12 hours ago it was working perfectly because when we got home from the vet, it was empty and looked as it should. I can tell his crop has emptied some since I put him in the brooder. Is it normal for the crop to be a little softer once it's emptied some? Because... it is. All I've fed him was about .3-.4 CC of water (which his medicine was mixed up in), maybe that softened it up? The .3-.4 CC was almost exactly 1 hour ago, and he got about .2-.3 CC water with meds 6 hours before that.

Let me put up pictures of Neeja and Teddy that I took a few minutes ago.


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## Berdnerd

Alright, here are Teddy and Neeja. Let me know if you need different pictures of them, my fiance took them and the ones of Teddy are not very clear. Do they look dehydrated? I've given Teddy sub q fluids twice tonight, each time on both sides and about .3 CC in each side each time.

Crops were emptied at about 6:30 pm. They were fed their meds right after (just the straight medicine with whatever water needed to dissolve them) and then .5 CC of liquidy formula made with electrolyte solution and Benebac at 8:30 pm, and then the exact same thing at 12:30. Teddy has pooped twice- once at around 6:40 pm and once at around 2 am. Neeja has pooped 3 times- one that was still orange tinged from his parents' food at around 1 am, and once that had an orange part AND a green part- which means he's digesting the formula some, right?! 

These pictures were all taken right after the second feeding.

Teddy:









Teddy again, this picture is kind of hard to see his crop because the color blends in with my hand, but if you look closely you can see.










The pictures of Neeja are better. The circumstances for him are exactly the same as Teddy so I won't repeat myself:










Neeja waving "hi"- cute, but unfortunately his foot kind of blocked the view of his crop.










So, what do ya think?


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## Berdnerd

Okay... I can hardly believe it... but their crops are emptying, slowly but surely! They're both almost completely empty! I'm going to wait about half an hour and feed them again. Going to do .5 CC again, then I'll feed them again when that empties and maybe even go up to .75 for the next. And they've pooped 3 times apiece in the past 3 hours! 

I'm trying to remain cautiously optimistic and not get too excited, but I am pleased.


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## srtiels

ALL the babies look great! I don't think there is any need for the crop bra. Yes, the little ones crop would have felt softer after giving the meds/fluids.

And if the crops are emptying better and they are pooping the Keflex is doing it's job...YAY!


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## Berdnerd

Hooray! I'm so glad to hear they look good! Teddy and Neeja seem to be resting easier now too- they're actually sleeping in the brooder instead of sitting there and looking sad. I have a reptile thermometer kind of leaning against the side of the brooder and I put my digital probe thermometer in there so the probe is touching the bottom of the brooder. This way I can tell the temperature without having to peek in. I have the alarm set to go off at 101 degrees. It's staying around 98 degrees. Is this an okay temperature for sick babies their age? I can't remember if I said it before or not, but this is how my brooder is set up:

Heating pad, covered with 3 layers of thick bath towel, then 2 thick place mats, then a plastic Kritter Keeper, then a dish towel folded in half, then paper towels. The brooder is about 2/3 on the heating pad and 1/3 off with the thermometer and digital probe on the heated end. There is a margarine container full of water on the heated end too.

Does it sound okay? And the temp okay? What temp range for sure should I be aiming for?

As for Phoenix, a couple minutes after I returned him to the nest box (after showing him to mama and daddy and making sure they saw me put him in), Poppet went into the nest box. I heard her feed him a little and all has been quiet for about 2 hours. She's in there with him 

Okay I'm going to get pictures of Teddy and Neeja really quick, then feed them!


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## srtiels

It sounds like your set up is good, and the temps are good.

I wish I would have thought of the Keflex a couple days sooner, for Kieran. Obviously in addition to the yeast they had a slight bacterial infection. The bacteria woulf NOT have been from the parents, food, what you have done or anything, but from the stress to the system of the slow crop, and the existing yeast problem. The bacteria most likely developed around the same time as the yeast and was the cause for the slower crop movement.

Years ago I was dealing with several babies that were vomiting and I suspected yeast and bacterial problems. It was on a week-end and no vets available and I was out of meds. on hand. I phoned breeders and none had any medications to spare. A friend had a cold and his Dr. prescribed him some Keflex and gave me some. So as last resort I tried it, and was amazed at the turn around on the babies. It is the only med. I keep now for babies, if a bacterial infection is suspected.

If you can handle Auther you can have him visit the babies a couple times a day. Once you get good digestion and pooping you might be able to let the parents care for them and just give the meds as needed.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, the Keflex was a lucky find, huh? 

The babies have been fed! This time I used bottled water instead of the electrolyte solution because I was worried about them getting too much electrolytes. From now on should I alternate electrolyte solution and water for the liquids I use for their feedings? And should I put the Benebac in each feeding or alternate it or what? Their feeding this time was still small. Just .5 CC of very runny formula. Is this okay or will all the liquid give them digestion problems? I'm afraid to thicken it up too much too soon. Oh and I forgot to say that one of them pooped in the brooder again (don't know which one), and when I was feeling Neeja's crop, the few millet seeds that I hadn't been able to flush out were gone!

Also, I forgot to say that the brooder has a towel over it so it's dark inside. At this point I don't have any ventilation corners or anything, should I lift a corner for that? I don't want them to smother or something!

I'm excited at the prospect of Arthur visiting the chicks. Can I put them all on my bed upstairs for a minute or so or what? Making sure not to chill the chicks, of course. Can Poppet visit too?

Gosh, I am always full of questions, aren't I? I'm going to go upload the pictures. Also I weighed the chicks before feeding them, Neeja is 32 g and Teddy is 30. Neeja is 1 day younger, but Teddy has been sicker longer. Today Teddy is 11 days old and Neeja is 10.


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## srtiels

I would gradually start to thicken up formula to see how they handle it. This would also be in preparation of them going back with the parents which will feed a denser food.

Do the benebac on the feedings between the medicating feedings, and if their hydration looks fine themn the bottled water is OK.

Yes...have one corner or end partially up covered for ventilation.

Yes, you can have both parents visit them  They can visit in your brooder or on your bed for short periods. Don't be surprised if they try to feed them and preen them  That would be a great time to get a family pix.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for answering my questions, Susanne! You're such a trooper  I have more questions but I'll save them for later.

Here are Neeja and Teddy with their crops empty. I'm pretty darn sure there crops were empty, they're just kind of stretched out. Does it look like that to you? I'm showing more of Teddy since his last pictures were blurry.

Neeja:










Teddy:


























How do they look? Do they look dehydrated?

They're sleeping peacefully now  I think I'm going to leave them alone until 8 (an hour and a half from now), when their next round of medicine is due. I think they need some good sleep. Hopefully their crops will be ready for more food then!

Okay so I definitely lied about not asking any more questions. Do you think it would be worth while to give either of them more sub q fluids, or is it unnecessary? It always makes me so nervous!


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## srtiels

Both look good and well hydrated. If dehydrated their little toes would get thinner and look like sticks, and feces would stick to the bottom pads of the feet.

If the crops were overstretched they would be hanging lower...yours seem fine. Plus if you stare at the crop for a minute or two you should see it churning and moving at the base, which is a good indication that there is good muscle tone in the crop.


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## Berdnerd

Good to know, Susanne! My little Kieran had stick toes  Poor baby. 

I just checked on Phoenix really quick. The parents had both left the nest box to relax for a bit. Arthur understandably squawked at me when he saw me open the lid! I'm always stealing their babies! Good news is Phoenix looks great. His crop has gone down some and it's firmer (what I think of as good firm).

I have another couple questions. Should I continue with the Pau d'arco drops in the parents' water and the Capryl on the food? Also, I sprinkle a whole capsule on the food- is that too much? Thanks!


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## srtiels

Do the Pau d'Arco and Capryl (1/2 capsule) for another day, and then just a couple of drops of Pau d'Arco for 2-3 days and then you can stop.

Since you are getting such a good responce with the Keflex I'm suspecting the bacteria that was the culprit was: E.coli This bacteria is in ALL birds in normal amounts and thus so non-pathogenic. The yeast and sour crop upset the intestinal balance inside them and caused the E.coli to take over and become pathogenic.

I could kick myself for not thinking of this before 

But the good news is your little ones look GREAT!!!! Good Job


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## Berdnerd

Okay Susanne, I will do that! I just gave the chicks their 8 am meds. They got the Fluconazole and the Keflex. Teddy and Neeja's crops are almost empty! Time to feed them again! I'm so relieved. Susanne, should I give them their medicine at the same time as food, or on an empty stomach? Does it matter? Also: more poops!

Also... Seeing how the chicks are doing now... What do you think the chances are that all 3 will make it through this sour crop yeast ordeal? I know there are plenty of other things that could get them before they have a chance to grow up (scary), but how hard of a road do we have ahead of us for this? I'm still trying not to get toooo excited, but it's hard!


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## srtiels

Ok...now that the meds are working, cut the time to about 5 min. before the next feeding. And then after that you can give the mads first and then feed.

By the looks of your little ones it sounds like they are on the right road to recovery and should be fine


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## Berdnerd

Yay! I hope they will be okay! Thanks so much Susanne, you're a life saver... literally!


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## srtiels

Oh...another thought. The next time the vets office is open phone the vet that gave you the Keflex and give them an update. I have found that when I have done this in the past that the vets like to hear follow up calls on when a treatment works  Many times it helps then too for knowing what to prescribe if they run into a similar problem with someone else.


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## Berdnerd

I'll do that, Susanne. I ended up feeding Neeja only this time- his crop was empty, but Teddy's wasn't. I think Teddy's had the medicine in there plus a little food from the feeding 3 hours ago. He was sicker than Neeja so it makes sense that it would take him longer to digest. Hopefully Neeja will digest his slightly thicker formula okay! Both babies are squealing for food right now. I felt mean only feeding one of them, but that's how it has to be!


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## srtiels

Give Teddy another hour, then check the crop. If still the same then empty it, and you may have to give him the meds again and feed. I would feed the normal thickness formula because his body sthe nutrients and energy as he is growing in the pinfeathers.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty, here's hoping an hour will do it for him! I will update then. Hopefully it will be a good one.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, it's been an hour and Teddy's crop hasn't emptied. Neeja's seems to be making progress at least. It's been 4 1/2 hours since Teddy was last fed. I'm worried about emptying his crop again because there's always the risk of aspiration, and I'm worried about giving him medication again when he just got it 2 hours ago. I know he'd be spitting it all back out, but what about medicine absorbed through the bloodstream? He got the Fluconazole and the Keflex. The next dose of Keflex is due at 2 pm, so in 4 hours. Would it be possible to wait until then to empty his crop, or empty it at 1 instead? I'm afraid of overdosing him!


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## Berdnerd

Also, I'm so tired that I'm shaking. I got about 2 1/2 hours of sleep yesterday in 30 minute increments, last time was over 24 hours ago. Maybe it would be best if my fiance watched the babies in the brooder until 1:30 so I can sleep some, then we'll go from there. Emptying a crop with shaky hands sounds like a bad idea.


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## srtiels

what about medicine absorbed through the bloodstream? He got the Fluconazole and the Keflex. The next dose of Keflex is due at 2 pm, so in 4 hours. Would it be possible to wait until then to empty his crop, or empty it at 1 instead? I'm afraid of overdosing him!
--------------------------------------

Get some sleep. Wait tile the next med dose, hopefully he will have absorbed some into the system.


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## Berdnerd

Teddy's crop still hasn't emptied completely, but it is smaller. Do I need to empty it again? Would you suggest feeding him some warmed electrolyte solution first to kind of flush it out? There's not a lot in his crop so I don't know if I'd be able to get it all out without adding something else first. Once he's emptied, should I give him just the Keflex (which is what he's supposed to have at this time) or a dose of Fluconazole too?

Neeja's crop has just a little bit left in it. He was last fed a more normal thickness of formula 5 hours ago. Do I need to flush him out and empty him again, or can I just give him his meds and then feed him again? He did not do well with the crop emptying last time and had fluid coming out his nostrils, so I would prefer not to do it to him again.

Also, could massaging their crops gently help at all? I can see the little crop muscles working on both of them.

Phoenix is alone in the nest box again. He isn't shivering or anything and his crop feels good. Can I give him a rice sock or something that he can snuggle against if he wants, or will that freak out the parents? Heating pads are so crazy that I'm afraid to stick one to the outside of the nest box!

I was able to sleep for about 1 hour before my fiance came in to tell me he was having trouble keeping the brooder at a good temperature. I've been so nervous that I literally jumped out of bed when he said my name. After we got the brooder stabilized, I tried to go sleep more, but couldn't even though I'm so tired. I'm literally making myself sick with worry over the babies. When I'm really worried about something, I cannot sleep even if I'm exhausted, and then I get ill. The only thing that gets me better is whatever I'm worrying about resolving.


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## srtiels

_*Also, could massaging their crops gently help at all? I can see the little crop muscles working on both of them.*_
_*--------------------------------------*_

Seeing the crop muscles moving is good. As long as they can churn the food it is getting some contact with the skin. Do the following...

OK...take your fingertip and press into the base of the neck. You are feeling for the indentation which is similar on our neck betwee the collar bone, at the base of the throat. This would be the opening in the body to the rest of the digestive tract. What you are looking for is if the base of the crop hangs lower than this. If so that may be why they are not emptying completely. Instead of a crop bra you can use some band-aids to try and adhere to the skin to try and raise the crop skin up higher....if needed. 

Since there is just a little left in their crops, smell their poop. If it has a sour smell it may still be the yeast acting up inside of them. Also open the beak and smell the breath to see if there is minimal smell or a sour smell. If you do not have a strong sour smell give the meds and feed them. If you do have a strong smell it might be wise to give a little pedialyte and empty.

And try to get some more sleep if you can. It IS a stressful time. What is good for the stress is to eat a tsp. of the Brewers Yeast. If you feel drained/tired a tsp of honey can energize you.

If you put something infor the little one in the nestbox with the little one to snuggle with you might want to watch the parents to see how they react to it.

Also a feather duster would be useful for the ones in the brooder to hide and snuggle against.


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## Berdnerd

I will do the poop and breath smelling. The things we do for our pets! I didn't see your reply and gave Phoenix and Neeja medicine, but not Teddy yet. I think Neeja's crop is pretty empty- it only has like a largish pea sized amount of something in there. It is noticeably bigger since I gave him the .1 CC of medicine (the Keflex mixed in a little water) if it gives you an idea of how little food there was in there. Poor babies, I'm always getting them out of the brooder for something it seems like. I try to minimize it because I want them to rest. 

My fiance went and bought a 3rd heating pad to have on hand and 3 more thermometers. The brooder now has 3 thermometers in it. I am paranoid and still feel like something could go wrong with it! What temperature range would you say is safe for them right now? Unfortunately, it fluctuates between about 92 and 98 (though normally at the higher end or middle). My fiance scared me awake during my nap when he said it was 78 degrees. It was 87 (he got the numbers transposed) and he said it was only that low for a couple minutes before he came to get me.

Okay going to go do the birdy smelling. After I get everyone taken care of I'll try the honey and brewer's yeast on myself.


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## Berdnerd

I couldn't smell anything sour on Teddy's breath (he didn't really smell like anything and he was screaming in my face so I got some pretty good air flow), but I think should flush and empty his crop because I can see some fluid in there through the skin. When I'm done, should I give him the Keflex AND the fluconazole? He's due to get the next Keflex dose now, but not the fluconazole for another 6 hours. I'll flush his crop as soon as I hear back from you, I want to get the med(s) into him ASAP after emptying him. Then I'm going to wait a bit and feed both chicks at once.


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## srtiels

Ok...if he is just due for the Keflex, then just give it. And if there is the fluid in there, yes, if agree to empty and flush.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I got him flushed and emptied. He breathed in a little bit and had some wet sneezes  It didn't stop him from immediately begging for food though and he wasn't holding his wings out or anything like Kieran was at the vet's. Both chicks are screaming for food now. I'm going to wait half an hour and then feed them both. Poor babies. Hopefully things will get moving through now.

I tried to feel the spot on them but wasn't quite sure what I was feeling for.


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## srtiels

Did you ever get the Nystatin? If so you can alternate giving some of it with the Duflucan. Or between Diflucan does you can add a pinch if Capryl to the Keflex mix. 

Give the little ones a pet on the head for me


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## cheekyboy

Just going to put my two bobs worth in:

I just spend the last hour reading about 10 pages and my heart goes out to you  Your doing a fantastic job with these little chicks and I wish you all the best.

And to Susanne, I think this is perhaps the most informative thread I've ever read. Theres nothing like learning from experience  Even though I dont breed I have found this extremely interesting.

Well done to both of you, I really mean it.


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## Berdnerd

We didn't get the Nystatin yet, the pharmacy is closed today. I think we can get it tomorrow.

I rigged a heating pad on the outside of the nest box. It's half on the side of the box, half underneath. I put it on high for a couple minutes just to warm it up, then moved it down to low.

Can I clean the nest box? I'd been adding shavings on top of what was already there when the chicks were younger. Phoenix poops a lot so the inside is getting a little poopy. Since the chicks are sick, I don't want him mucking around in poop that may be carrying bad things.

I'm having some thermometer troubles with the baby formula. I have been using THREE thermometers all at once, and all 3 come up with different temps that are a couple degrees apart. Great.

Edit: CheekyBoy, I'm glad you've found the thread informative! I like reading about all kinds of things I won't ever do, too. I wish the thread was happier, but maybe we'll have a happy ending still. Thanks for chiming in  And of course, thanks to Susanne!


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## srtiels

Yes...if the box needs it go ahead and clean it.

How old are the batteries in the thermometers? If old that could cause erratic readings.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, the thermometers/batteries are brand new. We got quite thermometer happy at the store! 2 of the ones my fiance just bought today, 1 of them we've had for a while but replaced the battery a couple days ago.

So, the chicks were last fed a pretty regular consistency formula at 4:15. Only 1/2 CC, but the formula was thicker than what I had been giving. Used electrolyte solution and Benebac. I got 2 hours more sleep in the evening with my fiance babysitting. When I came back downstairs, and went with much fear to check the babies' crops almost 4 hours after they'd been fed, Neeja's crop is completely empty. It barely looks stretched! That I am thankful for. Teddy's crop got a little smaller but not a lot  I'm about to give everyone meds (and massage Teddy's crop in case it will help anything), then wait a few minutes and feed Neeja again.


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## Berdnerd

It's amazing how long it takes to do things. Since I last posted, I have only done bird things- gave everyone both medications, washed their dishes and sanitized them, cleaned the nest box, fed Neeja, and washed and sanitized his dishes. An hour and a half!

Anyway, Neeja is pooping well. The poops are very wet I think because I've been giving him wet formula. The feeding this afternoon was thicker than what I'd given him before, and for this feeding I actually measured things. I used 1/2 electrolyte solution and 1/2 bottled water. The ratio of liquid to dry formula by volume was 4 parts liquid, 1 part formula. I fed him .5 CC. Hopefully he empties that quickly, then I'm going to try .75 CC.

I'm going to give Teddy sub q fluids again here in a few minutes. I hate doing it, I'm always worried I'll kill him accidentally. But I know it will help him. I can't tell apart the poops in the brooder because they all look the same, so I don't know if he's pooping or not. Quick question- I'm assuming it's normal for the formula bird poop to be green?

Also, Phoenix is a little porker. He's 7 days old today and weighs 38 grams with a full crop. That's up from 13 grams on Wednesday and 24 grams yesterday. Do I need to worry about him? His crop contents feel good to me and he's pooping a ton. His crop looks as full as it did in the picture I posted yesterday. I've seen it smaller over the past day so I'm not worried about it not emptying, just saying how full his crop is now  In comparison, as of early this morning Teddy weighs 30 grams with an empty crop at 11 days old and Neeja weighs 32 grams with an empty crop at 10 days old.


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## Berdnerd

A morning update. Neeja has been fed twice more since I updated. Most recent was almost 4 1/2 hours ago. For that feeding, I mixed the formula 3 parts water and 1 part formula and he got 1 CC which is the most yet. Recommended for his age (which they simply call "over 5 days" on the bag of formula) it says to mix 1 part formula to 1 1/3 or 2 parts water, so we're getting closer to what normal for his age is! His poops since being fed that are more substantial. Right now his crop is almost empty, it's just a little bitty pouch with some food in it. I have to wait until that is completely empty to feed him again, right?

Susanne, how is he doing? Taking what I am guessing will be 5 hours to digest 1 CC of medium thickness formula? 

Teddy's crop is hardly emptying  In desperation I fed him at the same time as Neeja, only 1 CC, because he was pooping but it was mostly urine and hardly any feces. I know he's digesting some though because his poops have more actual feces in them since I fed him the thicker formula too.


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## srtiels

_* I know he's digesting some though because his poops have more actual feces in them since I fed him the thicker formula too.*_
_*----------------------------*_

When you feed Teddy the next time sprinkle a little garlic powder in the formula. The garlic powder will help the intestinal flora, and it also will enhance the effectiveness of the medications.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, do you think I should empty Teddy's crop again? I fed him .75 CC of the formula almost 5 1/2 hours ago and his crop has gone down maybe 1/4 of the amount. It's medication time in a little over half an hour so I could empty him and then he would have medicine in his empty crop.

If I empty his crop and everything, how much would you suggest feeding him when I do feed him? Also I will add some of the spice mix, I added it to one of Neeja's feedings during the night.


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## srtiels

Yes...go ahead and empty him since it is also time to medicate. And add either the spice remedy or just the garlic powder to the formula. I would feed him normal thickness formula because he does need the nutrients, and he is not getting much from the thinner formula.

ALSO...do you have any Papaya tablets? You could probably get them at the healthfood store or the pharmacy. Take 1/4 tablet and crush it and add to normal thickness formula. It will slightly thin the formula down so don't thicken back up. The apaya may may with digestion, and also aids in nutrient absorption.


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## Berdnerd

I will get some papaya tablets if the health food store has them. One of my bunnies is having some digestion issues right now and he would benefit from them too. Normally I give one to the bunnies every day and we just ran out.

How many CCs of formula would you suggest I feed Teddy and Neeja, keeping in mind that Teddy's crop is emptying really slowly and Neeja's isn't doing it super fast either?


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## srtiels

Just a question...OK, when you put .75CC do you mean 3/4 of a cc which is less than 1cc? If so that is not very much. At their ages they should be digesting 3cc during each feeding.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, yes, that's what I mean. It isn't very much. I'm afraid if I give them the full amount it will take them really long to empty and it will go bad. I'm trying to empty their crops as little as necessary since I have to do the upside down squeeze method and I don't want them to aspirate. Does the crop function better when it's full?

I emptied Teddy's crop and gave everyone meds. Just waiting a little to feed Teddy and Neeja. I'll wait to see what you have to say about the crops maybe digesting better if they have more food. Then I'll feed them.


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## srtiels

Hmmmm...that is a small amount of food. I don't think the wright of the food in the crop has any impact on how fast it dogests.

By rights they should be able to digest 3-4 cc of food every 4-6 hours. If not there is still the infection and yeast still slowing up things. Do they still look hydrated?

Do you have another brand of formula? Sometimes changing brands 'might' help. OR what I have also done is get a box of Baby rice cereal, and mix 50-50% with the handfeeding formula. The iron that is in it does help some with digestion.


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## Berdnerd

Nope, only have the one brand of formula. It's Kaytee Exact handfeeding formula. The chicks definitely are not digesting 3-4 CCs in 4-6 hours. Teddy's crop is barely emptying on its own and Neeja's is faster but nowhere near that fast. I'm going to go feed them and will give Neeja 3 CCs this time. We'll see how long it takes him to empty it... I hope I don't end up having to empty his crop for him


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## srtiels

Hopefully Neeja will digest it...finger crosed for you


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## Berdnerd

Alright, got 'em both fed! I mixed the formula with 7 teaspoons water and 3 teaspoons formula, so it was almost a 2 to 1 water to formula mixture like the package says. I gave Neeja 3 CCs and Teddy 1.5 CC. My plan now is to pretty much leave them alone until 3 o'clock (4 hours from now) when they're due for their next round of medicine. Hopefully some serious digestion will have occurred! I'm not TOO worried about either being dehydrated right now because they're both pooping and there's plenty of urine. Is this a correct assumption- that they're not getting dehydrated if they're pooping and passing urine? 

Here are pictures of them after being fed. Do they look ok to you? I tried to show them from sorta different angles.

Teddy on the left, Neeja on the right. The poop was from Teddy and shows how much urine there is. I'd imagine there will be less now that I made thicker food.









Teddy (12 days) on left, Neeja (11 days) on right


















Neeja


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## srtiels

What is intersing is they both look GREAT in the pix. To look at them it would be hard to guess they are having problems. And they look bright eyed and hydrated.


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## Berdnerd

I'm glad to know they LOOK good at least. I wish they were just good on the inside! Hopefully in the next couple of days they'll improve as they get the medicine for longer. So far they've been on the medication for 42 hours and that isn't that long. I hope they improve. Silly to say that, isn't it? Also in 10 days I'm going to have to Washington for 4 days so I reallllly hope they're on track by then. The trip is unchangeable. It seems like one of my pets always get sick right before I'm supposed to go somewhere and I've cancelled several trips in the past (I missed Christmas with my family 2 years in a row because of sick bunnies, I only see my family once a year as it is!), but this one can't be changed because my friend from Austria will be staying with us and it will be pretty much her only opportunity to see parts of the United States, and also my family has a bunch of wedding things planned since I'm getting married in 3 weeks. Before I leave, I will educate my fiance as much as possible on the birds and how to care for them and have him take photos and video of them every day to share with me and this thread/srtiels! He's a smart guy and while he's not a pet lover, he would take care of them for me.

I'm a little concerned about what's happening with the parents. Poppet has spent all day so far in the nest box which is great, and Arthur has joined her sometimes, but when I've had to get Phoenix out for meds, neither have actually been sitting near him! Is this normal? Arthur has been chewing on the nest box a lot too. I hope they aren't thinking of laying more eggs. I need them to focus on caring for Phoenix. They are feeding him though and are protective of him. 

Phoenix's crop is at times as huge as the picture I posted a couple days ago where you said he's okay. His crop feels good to me so far. He weighs 38 grams as of this last night and is now 8 days old. He weighed a mere 13 grams on Thursday at the vet. Do I need to worry about him gaining weight so fast?


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## srtiels

_* I hope they aren't thinking of laying more eggs. I need them to focus on caring for Phoenix. They are feeding him though and are protective of him*_
*------------------------------*

It sounds like they are going to start another clutch. Phoenix should be fine in with them, and it sounds like his current weight is good. At this age they will rapidly put on weight.

We are here for your fiance later on...


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## Berdnerd

Oh that's what I was afraid of. No more eggs! If they lay eggs again, I think we're going to have to shake them up. Sounds cruel, but the chicks would be hatching right around when our wedding is and with different people coming over here, then our honeymoon, and it's simply a horrible time. I'd rather have the chicks in the eggs never begin to develop than hatch and then die because Arthur and Poppet are too freaked out to take care of them. Plus I don't want anymore chicks to have to go through what the current babies are/have  And if they did pass this illness onto their chicks, surely it would happen to the new babies too.

They'll still take care of Phoenix if they lay more eggs, right?

I'm going to not worry about it for now. I just want these current babies to be okay. Time to go give meds!


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## Berdnerd

Okay. It has been 6 hours since I fed the babies. Neeja was fed 3 CCs of food. He has pooped 6 times since he was fed, and the poops are looking more and more solid- the most recent one looks like real poop! However, his crop still has about 1/3 of the way to go until it is completely empty. How long can the food safely stay in there before I have to empty it for him? I prefer not to empty their crops because it's so dangerous and when I emptied Neeja's before, he breathed a little in and had wet stuff coming out his nostrils. I do not wish to repeat that and really hope he doesn't develop pneumonia. That incident was almost exactly 2 days ago. 

As for Teddy, he was fed 1.5 CC. He has pooped 3 times and one of them was right after he was fed. His poops are still looking pretty watery even though he was fed the same food as Neeja. His crop has only emptied about 1/3 of the way  I don't think the problem is his actual crop because I can see the muscles working like mad.


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## Berdnerd

I just had a great and very informative conversation with Susanne about the babies and possibly putting crop bras on them. These are photos I told her I'd post of the babies' crops right now. 

Neeja was fed 3 CCs of only very slightly diluted formula 8 1/2 hours ago. This seems to be as empty as his crop gets. He pooped 6 times over the course of the afternoon and then didn't go for about 2 hours, then pooped when I was taking pictures. This seems to be as empty as his crop gets. Do you think he needs a crop bra, and do I need to flush and empty his crop before putting it on him?

Here's Teddy. He was fed 1.5 CC of the same formula as Neeja at 8 1/2 hours ago. His crop size is about half of what it was but I can see the muscles in his crop working like mad to digest. He pooped 3-4 hours since being fed, then didn't go for a couple hours until I took these pictures. Does he need a crop bra and do I need to flush it before putting it on him?

This first picture is of Neeja right after he was fed earlier today:









and now:









in this picture you can see his crop mid-muscle movement:









the poop he left while I took pictures:










This first picture is of Teddy's crop right after he was fed earlier today:








And now:

















the poop he left while I took pictures:










Thanks so much, Susanne!


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## Berdnerd

I wanted to get things going, so I went with my gut on how to proceed. I fed Teddy 2 CCs of electrolyte solution, then emptied his crop. Hopefully it's the last time I have to do it. Thankfully, it went very smoothly without even the smallest splutter from him. Then I fitted Neeja and Teddy with their bras, which took a while. Then everyone got medicine. Then I fed Teddy his formula made with electrolyte solution and crushed papaya tablet and Benebac. He got 2 CCs of it per Susanne's instructions. Here are pictures of him after eating, does the bra fit look okay? Also he requests that you not make fun of his manly pink bra. 





























I put Teddy back in the brooder to get some rest, then fed Neeja 2 CCs of formula made with half water and half electrolyte solution and Benebac. Then took these pictures, how does his bra fit look?


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## Jenny10

I hope it helps your little ones, it sure looks funny, lol

Glad they are looking and feeling better.

Bad news on mum and dad looking like they are going for it again.


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## srtiels

Sorry for the slow responce...my cable/internet was down for awhile.

OK...the poop is real dark green. That is because of the very slow movement thru the digestive tract. Hopefully adding the papaya will help. If you do not see the color of the poop lightening up you may have to do the AS (Alka-Selzer) treatment...which is the crop flush and then digesting about 1/2cc of AS. This should be before the next scheduled medication feeding. As long as the poop is dark green like that it means there is bacteria in the GI tract, and they are absorbing it in their system, which is also hindering movent of the GI tract.

Ah...they both look cute  in their little bra


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, no need to apologize. Yesterday was a pretty good day with the chicks as far as how I was feeling about the situation goes, but I just finished crying. Poor babies. I'm afraid they're never going to get better and they're just going to suffer for a long time and then die. Do you think they're suffering? It seems hopeless  I mean, even considering the danger from the crop flushing alone, what are the chances they won't aspirate and die or more likely get aspiration pneumonia. I've been having to empty Teddy twice a day and he's only not spluttered a little bit on two occasions. And they've coughed a little when I've given them liquid to flush out the crops too. All could lead to aspiration pneumonia. 

I let myself get too excited about the crop bra and thought it would help, but Teddy's crop still did not empty all the way. Neeja's is much closer to being empty but I'm having a harder time telling through the bra. I went ahead and flushed Teddy's crop with Alka Seltzer and then emptied him. Then fed him 1/2 CC of Alka Seltzer. I'm going to go make them some food now. Going to use the electrolyte solution and add papaya tablet and BeneBac and I think I'll toss some of the rice cereal in there too. 

I have a couple of important questions. First, should I use the electrolyte solution for the liquid in ALL of their feedings, or will it imbalance them further? Should I use BeneBac in all of their feedings? Is it possible to give too much BeneBac? And should I feed some BeneBac to Phoenix, too? If so, how often and since it's a gel, do I just dissolve it in some warm water?


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## srtiels

First off Phoenix should be fine, and no need for anything else. Since you have changed and modified the parents food they are doing great with him. This is also good because if they have another clutch you should not have the same problems. As to the bread...it was not bad for them, just give smaller amounts and less often. The problem with the bread is that it was easier for them to eat and feed the babies...and when they fed mostly the bread the babies were not getting enough nutrients for their growing bodies. This caiuses stress to them, and stress leads to secondary yeast and bacterial infections.

OK...as to Neeja and Teddy you might consider ordering from this site: http://www.earmaxx.com/products_3.php I use these for medicating, feeding and sucking out crops (if it is just fluids,thin food, but no seeds). The 3.2 and 4.9mm would be good to have on hand. They also sell syringes. This is their contact page: http://www.earmaxx.com/contact_us.php You can ask for Matt as far as placing an order and to see how quick he can get it to you. The Multi Use syringe with tip: http://www.earmaxx.com/products_5.php might be handy too, especially for your rabbits if ever needed.


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## srtiels

_*Then fed him 1/2 CC of Alka Seltzer. I'm going to go make them some food now. Going to use the electrolyte solution and add papaya tablet and BeneBac and I think I'll toss some of the rice cereal in there too. 
--------------------------------------*_

Sounds like a plan. If they are hyradted looking you can just use the electrolyte solution for mixing every other feeding, and plain water in between.


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## Berdnerd

Wow. It just took me almost an hour to get them both fed and comfy back in the brooder. 

Susanne, the reason I ask about Benebac for Phoenix is that he is getting treated with the exact same medicines as Teddy and Neeja- he's actually getting more than them because he weighs more than them. I thought Benebac would be a good idea since the antibiotics may mess up his digestion? I'm very interested in what you have to say about this! I want to do things right.


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## srtiels

With little Phoenix do the Benebac in between medicating. Also the little one would still be getting some good/benefical flora from the regurgitated foods from the parents.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I'll work on giving him some Benebac. Do you think he's still being kept warm when his parent (or both of them) is in the nest box but not sitting near him? Every single time I've looked in there since it's been only Phoenix, his parents aren't actually sitting next to him or anything. Poor baby.


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## srtiels

What you can do is reach in and hold your hand above him...with the palm facing downwards about 1-2 inches above his back. If he is warm enough he will be radiating heat which you can feel on your palm as it rises. Normally if the babies are too cool they will not radiate heat because they are trying to conserve it.


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## Berdnerd

I just went to do the hand thing and Poppet was warming him! First time I've seen that since Saturday. Hopefully she'll continue to do it.

I'm afraid Teddy may have more issues. I obviously have very little experience with hand feeding so maybe this isn't unusual. He gets really loud when he's hungry and knows I give him food and even goes after my fingers I think because he associates them with food. However, his feeding response is weird. He squawks like he's hungry and goes after the syringe, but then doesn't do the bobbing-chirping thing- it actually looks to me like maybe it hurts him to swallow? I'll have my fiance video me feeding him tonight so you can see what I'm talking about. I'm curious because the vet we went to on Saturday said she thought he had a ruptured air sac. She first said that his crop was completely full of air, and then changed it to his crop was completely full of food, so I didn't really take her too seriously.


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## srtiels

_*but then doesn't do the bobbing-chirping thing- it actually looks to me like maybe it hurts him to swallow?*_
*-------------------------------------*
Can you take some pix's showing the underside of his head. You can use the tip of your fingernail to hook on the end of his beak to raise the head for taking the pix's. You can crop the pix so that it shows just his head and throat. 

The reason why I am asking is a steel feeding needle was used at the 1st. vet, and there might be a possiblity that his throat was injured. If so, it does heal on it's own, but it does make it harder for him to swallow.
------------------------
_*I'm curious because the vet we went to on Saturday said she thought he had a ruptured air sac. She first said that his crop was completely full of air, and then changed it to his crop was completely full of food, so I didn't really take her too seriously.*_
_*--------------------------*_
It sounds like the vet was more familiar with wild birds rather than parrots. wild bird, and finches and some softbill species of birds do not have a crop to hold food. They have an expandable espohagus which the food is delivered along the inside of the neck. They also can not hold larger amounts of food like a bird with a crop...which is why I suspect she told you to feed the smaller amounts. These smaller amounts are appropriate for a wild bird...but not for a growing baby tiel with a crop.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I got pictures. Let me feed the babies and then I'll upload them. I weighed everyone. Teddy and Neeja weigh only 29 grams each at 13 and 12 days old  Phoenix is up 3 grams from last night to 48 grams. I'm worried about how he is when he takes his medicine- it's not unusual for him to not cough per se, but make quiet funny sounds when he swallows it. He's so young. I try to wake him up as best I can before giving him the medicine so he swallows properly and I wait for tongue movement. I hope I don't end up giving him aspiration pneumonia when he maybe would have been fine without the meds.

So expect pictures of Teddy's throat in about half an hour!


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## Berdnerd

Jeez, everything takes so long to do! Since I posted last, all I did was feed the chicks, clean up after, and change the paper and bowl of water (for humidity) in the brooder.

Here are closeups of Teddy's throat, is this what you were looking for? He actually had a good feeding response this feeding. 





































I fed a 2 to 1 ratio of water to formula, added papaya and Benebac. Teddy got 1.5 CC because it takes him longer to digest and I'm trying to limit the amount of crop flushing I have to do. Neeja got a little over 2 CCs.

Does this poop look healthier, Susanne? I noticed a color change! Everything on the left side of the paper towels (you can see the split between the 2 sheets) is from Teddy this late morning/afternoon and everything on the right is from Neeja. The poops are all dry so keep that in mind. Neeja pooped after I got him out though and it was the more olive green (vs bright green) and the poop itself looked almost like normal grown up bird poop.










dried Neeja poop:








dried Teddy poop:


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## srtiels

His throat looks fine...no bruising or swelling. Thankd for the patience and the photos.

Ok...Phoenix obviously did not get the yeast/bacterial infections like the others. he was alot younger than them when we realized something was going on with the older ones digestion. I would start tapering him off the meds...like skip every other one for a day, and then the following day stop giving.

When you have Phoenix out save some of his poop to use for comparison. This would be normal parent fed poop and will reflect what he has been eating...but will give you an idea of texture, and amount of urine (water part) Since the older babies are still having relatively slower digestion times is why the poop is darker. But it does look like it is lightening up alittle. Hopefully as they respond to treatments it will get lighter and the urine will get clearer looking.


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## Berdnerd

Okay Susanne, I will taper off his meds. I had been wanting to do that but was too afraid in case it was a bad idea. I can't remember if I mentioned it here, but I was worried for a little while because his crop was getting soft (this was every time I checked on him for 18 hours, 3 medication times), but his crop has firmed up again. Do you think he's okay if his crop has firmed up?


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## srtiels

The softening of the crop might have been from the small amount of meds and fluids you have been giving him.


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## Berdnerd

I just almost had a heart attack. The temperature in the brooder was 103 so I uncovered it to find out if one of the chicks was sitting on the thermometer probe, and sure enough Teddy was sitting on it. Neeja was sitting in the mug of hot water that I put in there half an hour ago so the brooder would be humid! I thought the sides were tall enough that they couldn't get in. He had to scale a Beanie Baby bunny first to get into it. Somehow he managed not to fall in head first and the water level was below his head so I don't think he breathed any in. I checked and the temperature of the water was 102 degrees. I can't believe how lucky we got, that was very nearly a fatal accident and I don't know if I can forgive myself  I'm going to get a really tall jar for the water that there's no way they could get into. Poor Neeja, I hope he'll be okay. I will be watching him for burns since I know temps over 110 degrees cause burns and I don't know what temp the water was when he went in.

Here is Phoenix. I clean off his face whenever I medicate him and I hadn't cleaned him off yet when I took these pictures. I think he's looking pretty much on target for being 9 days old, don't you think? His crop feels good and he weighs 51 grams- up 6 from yesterday. Does his weight gain sound ok? The chick in the Watch Me Grow article weighed 56 grams on day 9 and had a 10 gram weight gain from day 8.



















So Susanne, do you think I should discontinue his medication? His crop felt good this time and the last time, but it felt kind of watery for 3 of the previous feedings. Would it be safer to continue with the medication or to stop giving it? If I continue, can I just give the BeneBac at the same time as the meds? I already go into the nest box 4 times a day to medicate him and I want to disturb him and his parents as little as possible.


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## Jenny10

What I would do for placing water in the brooder is either use a jar/container with a lid on with holes drilled into it so the water can still evaporate but the bird cant get in to it, or put a firm sponge in your mug that way it will still release the moisture but wont be just a open mug of water.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I'm definitely going to do that. I feel so stupid and so guilty  I really hope he'll be okay. He wasn't acting upset to be sitting in water!


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## srtiels

Pheonix looks great. You could probably put some of the benebac in the parents water bowl. This way they and Phoenix get the benefit of it. And taper off the meds.

You have had quite a day  The babies body temps are approx 104 degrees so he must not have been on the probe long. If you have a large salt or pepper shaker , or similiar, that can also work for the water/humidity jar. It will have holes in the top for the water to evaporate from.


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## Berdnerd

I have set the alarm on the thermometer to go off if the temp goes over 102 degrees. It's so weird, I have been using... let me count... 8 thermometers in the babies' food and brooder. Somehow they end up having completely different readings. I don't understand it. Making the formula is always really stressful because the thermometers are all saying different things and I'm afraid it will be too hot or too cold for them 

I feel so bad about the water incident and can't BELIEVE I was dumb enough to think putting it in the brooder was safe. Like I said, yesterday I had a slightly more shallow container in there but swapped it out because I was afraid they'd get into it. I don't know why I didn't think they could get into the mug. Little Neeja is looking ok so far. I will never ever forgive myself if he's hurt because of this.

The Benebac I have is the gel form because it's all the vet had. I'm guessing that won't go very well in the parents' water? Honestly, I'd rather give the parents water with Benebac in it than syringe it to Phoenix because he isn't very cooperative with the syringe and I don't want to aspirate the little guy. I'm going to order some bird probiotic powder right now to add to the parents' water but it will take a few days to arrive I'm sure. Do you think it would be better to mix the Benebac gel into the parents' water or stir in some acidophilus powder? 

Also, is it normal for a baby in the nest to cry? Tonight I've heard Phoenix cry several times. One of the times he was alone in the nest and Poppet came to him, the other couple of times she was in the nest with him. Today he is 10 days old if it means anything. Maybe he's just finding his voice? I can't help but worry.


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## srtiels

LOL...I worried like you about every little thing with the first few clutches of babies. You are doing a GREAT JOB, so calm down, it's OK 

When I had thermomter issues I would hold a baby in the palm of my hand to get a feel for it's body temp. I would use this as a guage to test the temp of the formula by putting some on my palm to see if it felt the same temp. Not the greatest thing to do, but for the last several years that is how I do it. I got tired of erratic temp readings.


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## Berdnerd

That method of testing the formula temperature does sound more straight forward, but I wouldn't trust myself to get it right!

So what do you think about the gel Benebac in the parents' water vs. acidophilus capsule in the parents' water? And about Phoenix crying in the nest box?


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## Jenny10

I think that is a good tip about holding the babies and feeling their temperature compared to the food.


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## srtiels

_*acidophilus capsule in the parents' water? And about Phoenix crying in the nest box?*_
*-----------------------------*
 The capsule in the water is fine. 

 When you look in the nestbox does he still cry? If so, could it be he is begging for more food (head lowered and looking up) ? Also watch his pinfeathers to see if the parents are not plucking him. If pluckiing you'd see some pin feathers start to dissappear from his little crest first and then the back. BUT, I don't see any evidence of it from the pix's posted. In the pix's he looks like he is deveoping really well for his age, and everything looks great. So the crying might be begging.


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## Berdnerd

I just looked him over and I don't see any missing pin feathers. I felt his crop and it feels kind of soft. He was last given medication 7 1/2 hours ago so I don't think that would be what's making it feel soft? I've been near the nest box for the past several hours except for about 20 minutes when I was in the shower. I heard him last fed a few hours ago, honestly don't know what time. Could the crop just be softer because it's been a while since he was fed?

The last time I heard him fed was right after one of the times he was crying. He only cried a few times. They actually just fed him a few seconds ago after I put him back in the nest box.

Since his crop seems to be going through phases of being soft and firm, do you think it would be best maybe to continue the meds for him just in case?


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## srtiels

_*Could the crop just be softer because it's been a while since he was fed?*_
_*--------------------------------------------------------*_

The firmness and softness of the crop varies. And alot of it depends on what he has been fed by the parents. Usually if they drink alot of water right before feeding the crop is softer. Do you notice the level of the water going down?


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, it's a little harder to notice the water level now because I have 2 water bowls in there and one's pretty big. I do know they drink water though  Hopefully when I check him again in a couple of hours his crop will be firm again. If he's getting sour crop, would it go soft then firm then soft then firm or just stay soft? Hopefully he's fine and just trying to worry me, but you can understand why I'm nervous.


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## srtiels

From your pix's the crop looked normal. Yes...the crop would vary in firmness. The body will absorb some of the fluids thru the skin into the body. If sour crop it would always be real soft and you'd see the new food settling at the bottom of the crop, and it would just get bigger and bigger with each feeding.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah, that picture I posted was taken right before I posted it and his crop felt fine then. Hopefully he's okay. Do you think I should continue the meds with him for a bit longer just in case? Worry worry worry!


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## srtiels

Of you would like to continue the meds, that is fine. How are the others doing?


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## Berdnerd

No changes with Neeja and Teddy  They're losing a little bit of weight every day... Remember my excitement over the poop turning less fluorescent? It went back to being fluorescent. It kind of changes back and forth.

Do you think it would be wise to see if Arthur and Poppet would feed Neeja since his crop is emptying slightly faster than Teddy's? Since he has bacterial and yeast things going on though I'm very worried about cross contamination between Neeja and Phoenix.


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## srtiels

OK...stop the meds for a couple of treatments and see if the poop color improves. Sometimes the meds can cause that odd green color. Try both of them for a feeding from the parents, and once fed put them in the box and see how they digest and if the poop changes in consistency and color.

The infections would be specific to each bird, and there should not be a problem with them and Phoenix being together.


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## Berdnerd

Ok, I'm going to try having them feed the chicks! Can I put them in the nest box to be fed or is that a no no because their poop has bad bacteria in it?


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## srtiels

Their poop in the nest should be fine. Keep us posted


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## Berdnerd

Ok I just gave meds to Phoenix and didn't give meds to the other 2. Phoenix's crop is smaller and still soft. Arthur and Poppet often don't feed him much at night (I did hear him being fed very briefly twice) and it's 10 am here. For them, the last feeding seems to usually be around 2 am maybe and then start back up around now. I'm betting they'll feed him now.

I'll try putting Neeja and Teddy back in the nest box but first we're going to the store really quick to get Rory (my sick bunny) some veggies.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I'm back from the store and about to put the babies in the nest box. Phoenix has been fed. Because I'm paranoid, I'm going to put him into a cardboard box with a towel and the Snuggle Safe to keep him warm and safe while the other chicks are in the nest box. I'll use the time that the brooder is empty to clean it and then after Neeja and Teddy have been fed, I'll empty out the nest box and replace the shavings so Phoenix has a clean box.

Susanne, if you see this before I put them in, should I take off Teddy's bra first? I'm skeptical of how much use it's doing. I took off Neeja's last night and Neeja's able to empty his crop completely, it just takes a long time.


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## srtiels

If the parents appear afraid of the crop bra, go ahead and take it off of them. You'll know when they look at him with it their crest will go up and down showing they are aprehesive and curious of what it is.


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## Berdnerd

I ended up taking off the bra because they were only feeding Neeja. Neeja has been fed and has a nice little crop and is already asleep in the brooder. Teddy is still in the nest box 30 minutes later, I've heard feeding sounds but when I checked on him a couple minutes ago his crop isn't any fuller?


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## srtiels

Teddy may have to get the hang of begging and being fed by them again. Even if they get a little in him that will give you something to monitor to see how he digest.


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## Berdnerd

Still no food in him! How long should I leave him in there? It's been 40 minutes.


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## Berdnerd

Aww he's not screaming to be fed anymore, he's just making sad quiet cries now  Poor baby!


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## Berdnerd

I took Teddy out of the nest box because he still hadn't been fed and was just being quiet but wasn't asleep when I checked on him  I'm going to handfeed him and then think about giving him sub q fluids...


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## Berdnerd

Okay I fed Teddy. If Neeja digests this well and in a reasonable time frame, would it be possible for me to put him back in the nest box? Judging by the size of his crop, they fed him about 2 CCs or a little more. If he's back in the nest box, could he hurt Phoenix because of his illness? I know you said it wouldn't hurt to put them in the nest box with Phoenix just to be fed, but if Neeja was in there all the time?


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## srtiels

Ah...poor little one. The Sub-Q and the feedings might perk him up. You might have to give him a little extra loving since he may feel rejected.


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## Berdnerd

He seemed so sad  Poor baby Teddy. He ate really well for me though and went to sleep fast when I put him back in the brooder. I wish I could give them kisses but I don't want to get my germs all over them! 

I'm very curious to see how well Neeja will digest the food from his parents. It's been 3 hours and he still has food in there, but that's no surprise.


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## srtiels

You can weigh Neeja every hour, because the parents will keep topping him off with food. This way you can tell by weight too if his crop has emptied a little. Each 1 CC of food equals 1 gram.


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## Berdnerd

I took Neeja out of the nest box after he was fed, he's hanging out with Teddy in the brooder. When his crop empties I want to put him back in the nest box until he's fed again, does that sound like a good plan?


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## srtiels

Yes...it sounds like a good plan.


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## Berdnerd

Update time. Best first: Phoenix's crop feels good again. I weighed him and he's 58 grams- up 7 from 18 hours ago. Not good news: It's been 5 hours since Neeja was fed and his crop seems to have emptied the liquids rather than the seeds. This is what his crop looks like right now:


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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
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After giving him his meds, his crop doesn't hold it's shape like that anymore because of the water. He's pooped pretty well, the most recent one is as big as Phoenix's. It's still green but more brownish green (Phoenix's is brownish red).

And very sad news: My little Teddy Bird is weakening. His begging and crying is getting quieter and it sounds kind of trilling. His crop looks every bit as full as it was when I fed him this morning.


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## srtiels

Wow...that little Phoenix is growing like a week. You may have to supplement Neeja some diluted fluid when you find it emptied of the liquids.

Teddy is in my thoughts and prayers. Is he pooping anything at all? I'm at a loss of suggestions. (((HUGS))) sweet little one. Fingers-crossed that he will perk up.


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## Berdnerd

Teddy just flew to heaven on his little baby wings.


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## srtiels

OMG! ((((HUGS)))...fly free sweet little one


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## Jenny10

Oh no, not another little one, at least he is with little kieran flying high in birdie heaven.

Big hugs


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## Berdnerd

I'm shocked. I didn't think he was that bad yet. I went to check on them and Teddy was sitting there kind of flailing his head around the same way Kieran did before he died. I picked him up and held him as he died  Poor baby. I'm so sad that he spent half of his tiny life ill. Today was his 14 day hatchday. I should have started socializing him today instead of holding his little body. I think Teddy would have grown up into a really sweet birdy- he was never as hissy as the others and didn't hiss at me at all over the past couple days. Just cried and cried because he was hungry since his body was working against him  I can't believe it's only been 14 days, it felt like he was here a long time.

Here's Teddy nuzzling my hand for food:










Doing the same thing at 2 days old:










3 days old:










right after he hatched:










Mama and daddy were both there when he came out of his egg:










starting to break open his egg:










chirping inside his egg:



Fly free, sweet baby. I'm so sorry.


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## Berdnerd

I can't believe Teddy is gone. My poor little one. I think he was more my baby than Arthur's and Poppet's!

I fed Neeja 1 CC of watered down formula about 7:30 to loosen up the seeds in his crop. I just checked on him and he still has the seeds but they aren't dried out and there seem to be fewer.

I know this is illogical, but since Teddy has died, I'm more determined than every to make Neeja live. My plan for tomorrow is to feed him 2 CCs every 6 hours- right after he gets his medication. I know he should be fed more often than that at his age (he will be 14 days tomorrow) but he won't digest any faster than that so it doesn't do any good. Maybe On Friday we can try having Arthur and Poppet feed him again. I think that was a good idea but since it's been almost 10 hours and he still has seeds in his crop, I think I need to wait a bit before trying again.


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## srtiels

What a beautiful photo tribute to Teddy.

You might want to check the edges of the bedding in the nest box to make sure that Neejas poop is normal and no whole seeds in it. If no whole seeds that is a good sign that he is digesting, and in doing so getting the benefits from the food.


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## Berdnerd

Neeja still has a little bit of seed in his crop almost 12 hours after being fed by mom and dad  I just fed him 2 CCs of formula to help work it through. The only good thing is that his poop does not have seeds in it.

Still worried about Phoenix. I just weighed him after he got his meds and he's up to 64 grams. That's a 13 gram gain from yesterday and 6 grams more than when I weighed him 6 hours earlier! His crop feels slightly soft again. I can feel a few seeds in there and they seem to be mostly around the bottom and some in the middle, but it doesn't really feel like they sank necessarily. A possible explanation could be that Poppet eats mostly seeds, and Arthur eats mostly fruity pellets, so if Poppet fed him and then Arthur fed him it would make sense for more seeds to be on the bottom? Also he used to poop pretty much every time I picked him up but the hasn't pooped on me since Tuesday. I took some pictures, what do you think?



















Also as of today (Wednesday), Phoenix is able to raise his crest when he's alert. It's cute! I never saw any of the other chicks do that.


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## roxy culver

I'm so sorry about Teddy but you did everything you could for him and you tried so hard. At least you had him for a little while right? Wonderful pictures of him btw...my prayers are with the other little ones.


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## srtiels

Phoenis looks good. Part of that additional gain from 6 hours previous is weight gain and food. His crop looks fine for the age that he is. Most parents will keep plenty of food in the crop.


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## Berdnerd

Good to know, Susanne. I'm just about to give medicine to both babies and feed Neeja.

I'm SO worried about Phoenix and the medications he's on. The Diflucan twice a day and Keflex 4 times a day. I'm putting acidophilus in the parents' water to try to counteract the effects of the antibiotic, but I worry about it anyway. I read that antibiotic use is one of the causes of sour crop in chicks. I'm afraid I'm medicating him needlessly and he'll develop (or is developing) sour crop because of the darned medicine that's supposed to be preventing it! I know that antibiotics cause the intestinal flora to get out of whack. Do antifungals like the Diflucan do the same thing? Would it e smarter to cut out the Keflex for now and only give him Diflucan? I have Nystatin too, would that be better instead of the Diflucan? Susanne, knowing what you do about Phoenix and our situation, what would you do if he was one of your chicks?


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## srtiels

No, the anitibiotics are not a cause for sour crop. If ONLY antibiotics are given without also giving an antifungal (such as Diflucan or Nystatin) they can upset the intestinal flora and cause a yeast overgrowth. Since you are using antibiotic and an antifungal there should be no chance of a secondary yeast problem.

What you can do is cut back on the amounts of antibiotics given, and switch to Nystatin instead of the Diflucan. TAKE CARE with the nystatin. It is thick and sweet tasting and many times a tiel will balk at eating it or have difficulty swallowing which can cause aspiration. What I found is to mix it with some formula and give.


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## Berdnerd

Oh, gosh, that sounds scary with the aspirating thick gooey liquid! Phoenix is no master of the syringe, unfortunately. Why is the Nystatin better than the Difulcan?

Also thanks for reassuring me! I will continue with the meds.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, why is the Nystatin better than the Diflucan for Phoenix?

Also, here is a poop of Neeja's this morning, and here are the paper towels I removed from the brooder with dried poop. How does it look?


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## srtiels

The urates look alot better in the first pix. And there is more volumne to the feces, and the white part looks good.

OK...I don't think Phoenix has a systemic (meaning throughout the body) yeast infection, so using the Diflucan is not as important or necessary. Nystatin is not a systemic med...it is a contact drug. So once it is inside it is effective on all the inside surface it comes in contact with.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, would it hurt Phoenix to just keep using the Diflucan instead of Nystatin? I've weighed the little chunk twice today. Once he was 62 g, the other 64 again. This all had to do with crop contents I'm sure. When I weighed him last night and he was 64, his crop was quite full. I really should not weigh him several times a day because then I worry! His normal weigh time is 10:30pm, or at least that's the time when I write down the weight for the day. He seems more alert today. I was a little concerned because up until yesterday he was a really sleepy little thing. Teddy and Neeja never EVER act sleepy when they're out of the brooder, but I think that may be because they are (or were in Teddy's case) absolutely ravenous with hunger and Phoenix is well fed. Phoenix also hasn't pooped on me in a couple days which I find slightly odd.

Oh and as of yesterday, Neeja is learning to chirp. It is cute! He cries for food and then will insert random little chirps in there. Also some of his flight feathers are juuuuust starting to peep out of their sheaths. I find it interesting that he's so super tiny (30 grams at 14 days) but his feather development is on target. Teddy was the same way.


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## srtiels

It sounds like everything is normal with Phoenix  The Diflucan is probably not a neccesity for him. And if you stop the antibioitcs the Nystatin would not have to be needed either.

Little Neejas body is most likely stunted because of the erratic digestion and crop problems. His body was not getting enough nutrients, and the body is using alot of the nutrients to grow those feathers. Even though little now this does not mean that he will be permanately affected. Once the major feather gowth is done he will start gaining and growing more. He may be little at weaning, but by the time a year old will catch up to normal size.

Ah...it is so cute when they learn how to chirp


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, that's very encouraging to know that he'll probably turn out normal! Poor little guy. I so wish they hadn't gotten sick. It's so unfair. Arthur and Poppet are such good parents, I think they did everything right and I tried as hard as I could to have all the chicks be healthy. I wish I could go back in time and take away the bread so the chicks wouldn't have been fed so much of it and that I had purchased a battery for my gram scale sooner. Maybe I would have noticed the slow weight gain. Remember how I thought Kieran was okay and the other 3 were sick because the second day I weighed them, they all only gained like 1 gram and Kieran gained 4? 

I'm starting to gain more hope for Phoenix making it to adulthood. Little dude is 11 days old. I just weighed him and he is 67 grams. Usually I weigh him at 10:30 and that is the official weight for the day, but I was giving them their meds (he finally decided to like the syringe tonight, how odd!) and thought I'd just do it while he was out. 67 grams is only a 3 gram increase from yesterday (though he weighed 61 g earlier today when his crop was a bit emptier). Does that sound ok to you?

What do you think the chances are that Phoenix will survive to adulthood? Could he be considered a normal chick now or is he still especially at risk?


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## srtiels

Yes...Phoenix will most likely be normally developed because the weight now is very good for his age. And how you are feeding the parents now helps too. Plus they have more experience so next time around things will be alot better. You've gained more experience in what to look for, but I doubt if you'll have any problems, but you'll know what to do 'just in case.'

And if Neeja does survive this he will be undersized when young but catches up as he matures into adulthood.


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## Berdnerd

We lost baby Neeja  I just peeked in on him in the brooder and he was gone. My poor darling, he tried so hard to make it. I thought he might pull through because his poops were looking a little better. Fly free, my darling. You taught me so much.

I guess it's just Phoenix now, the only thing that can redeem this awful experience is his survival.


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## Jenny10

So sorry to hear about little Neeja, and you did do the best you can, I think there must be more to it than a slow crop to loose 3 like that, what I don’t know, maybe Arthur and Poppets genes just don’t match that well.

Big Hugs, it must be devastating and disheartening to be loosing chicks like this.

Fingers crossed little phoenix will make it.


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## srtiels

((((HUGS))))...I totally agree with Jenny, you did the best you could. And now Arthur and Poppet are doing well with Phoenix, so hopefully all should be OK for him.


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## Berdnerd

I clipped off a little bit of Neeja's fluffy down feathers and a couple of his little feathers that had begun to come out of their sheaths so I can keep a little part of him. It's so weird not having little babies to tend. I'm glad Neeja is finally at rest and not hungry anymore  Also I really hope it isn't a genetic weakness that predisposed the chicks to getting sick easily! Not much I can do about it though if it is. I'm not planning on letting them have babies again in any case so I don't think we'll ever know.

Now I just have my Phoenix to worry about. The one who I thought would die the first few days of his life but has outlived the others. I hope he can live and of course plan to do everything to make that happen.

I'm happy to say that Arthur and Poppet have reclaimed their parenting duties- I was a bit worried for a couple days because it seemed like they spent a lot of time out of the nest box or away from him. I attached a heating pad set on low to the outside of the cage, with half on the bottom and half on the side. They spend a lot more time in the nest box than they did there for a little while. They still both leave together a couple of times a day so they can eat- I'm guessing that's okay?

My next set of worries is what to do here in a few days. My friend is arriving from Austria on Tuesday afternoon and will be staying with us for the next 3 weeks until our wedding. The bird cage is in the living room and our friend will be sleeping on the futon a mere 3-4 feet from the cage. Arthur and Poppet aren't really used to strangers and I'm worried they will ditch Phoenix when she gets here. He will be 16 days old when she gets here. I could theoretically handfeed him if they decide to abandon him, but the NEXT dilemma is that I will be out of the state from the afternoon of Thursday, July 15 and return the afternoon of Tuesday, July 20th. That's 4 full days and 2 half days. My fiance will be caring for the birds during this time. Arthur and Poppet know him of course and have lived with him for the past 3 years, but he doesn't usually handle them. I'm afraid that if the upset of my friend being here doesn't make them abandon Phoenix, the upset of having my fiance care for them instead of me WILL.

My plan so far is to have my fiance begin to do half of the bird chores starting tomorrow. Change their papers, feed them, etc so they get used to it and I'll be able to monitor their reaction and they'll have several days to get accustomed to him messing with their nest box and cage before I leave. 

If it comes down to it and they do abandon Phoenix, I can handfeed him. I think my skills are actually decent now after caring for Kieran, Teddy and Neeja. I can also show my fiance how to do it and he could come home to hand feed him because he works only a few minutes away and his boss is nice. I would rather not have that happen though because I think Phoenix has the best chance staying with his parents.

Does this sound like a good plan to get them used to my fiance? And what can I do to get them used to my friend? I wish now that I'd moved the cage upstairs when I had the chance, but I didn't think of that before and I'm afraid doing it now would disturb them more than having my friend here would.


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## Jenny10

Technically they already know him, he just doesn’t really do their cage, I would imagine they wouldn’t be to bothered about him doing the chores, and yes just maybe start getting him to do the chores every other day for a while so they get used to the idea.

If they are fine with him doing the cage then you will know before your friend arrives if you start soon, if there is a problem on your friends arrival you will know and then be able to show your fiancée how to feed phoenix if need be, I expect it will not come to that if anything they are likely to be more protective with a stranger around.


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## srtiels

If sounds like a good plan. As Jenny said, you can see how they react to your fiance, and then how they react to your friends. The baby is older so they will be not as protective, which is good. And if they are feeding him fine when they are around the new people he should be fine while your gone. That is great that your fiance is willing to learn and help if needed.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, good to know. Hopefully everything will be fine. I'm glad Phoenix won't be as tiny so he'll actually be of acceptable age if we have to pull him for handfeeding. And Arthur and Poppet are MORE protective of Phoenix than they used to be, hopefully this works to our advantage (and they won't want to abandon him). For instance, if I went to check in the nest box when Arthur was out, he would just watch from wherever he was. Now he rushes over as fast as he can to "get me"! Thankfully Phoenix will be done with meds by the time I leave so at least my fiance won't need to peek in the box too much or do anything much to Phoenix. I'm going to have him take a picture of Phoenix every day to e-mail to me and post here and also weigh him.

Once my friend and I get back from Washington, things will be relatively calm in bird land for a week. Until our relatives start arriving from out of town for our wedding. They're going to have to accept that we can't have people over because I'm not willing to take the risk of Phoenix being abandoned. THEN, the next hurdle: Our honeymoon! We will be gone for 5 days and our friend who knows nothing about birds will be pet sitting. I don't need to tell you how uncomfortable it makes me to think of leaving Phoenix behind for that long. He will be like 37 days old then and theoretically on 2 feedings per day and have only room temperature requirements. I would honestly rather bring the little guy with us on our honeymoon (which is a few hours' drive away) than risk losing him if we leave him home and something goes wrong. But I guess we can discuss this more later. Especially since if he does end up staying with his parents just fine and doesn't need hand feeding, would he adjust to being handfed at 37 days?! 

So much drama!


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## srtiels

At 37 days it is going to be harder to handfeed. If you let the parents fledge and wean him out he can be handled every day. Hopefully the pet sitter is not afraid of birds, and the birds are not afraid of them. You might be able to have them handle the little one for a few minutes each day while you are gone. Also you might want to have them check on the birds 2 X a day to make sure they have fresh water and food.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah I figured if we decided to take him with us, we'd need to try supplementing him with formula once every day until then so he's used to eating from a syringe. If we end up leaving him behind, do you think the parents would abandon him because a stranger was digging around in their cage? He would be at fledging age by then so should be eating some bird food too, right?

Honestly, if it comes down to it, where we're going is 6 hours away. If a problem develops while we're gone, I would be willing to sacrifice a day of our honeymoon to drive home, get Phoenix and the brooder and hand feeding supplies, then drive back!

Also I'm really creeped out. I've felt 4 little earthquakes in the past half hour and there was a 5.something a couple hundred miles from here earlier this morning. Yes I did go and check the nest box, it shouldn't be coming down unless there's a really big one.


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## Berdnerd

I forgot to say before that when I went to give meds to Phoenix this morning, his crop was nearly empty. Not empty, but maybe 1/3 full. Since the parents don't feed him as much during the night and I heard him be fed after returning him to the nest box (and he's being fed right now too actually), I'm not too worried, but it DOES show that his wee crop is emptying. The contents of his crop at the time seemed kind of soft, but really it makes sense that they would feel that way when there wasn't much in there, right?

I called the vet this afternoon and asked her if I should discontinue Phoenix's medication and she said yes. I'm taking her advice with a grain of salt since she seemed pretty confused about tiels, but Susanne, what do you think? I know we've been going around and around on this issue! I didn't give him his afternoon medicine so I could taper off like you said.

Also I ordered some of those EarMaxxx syringes and some Avi-Tec powdered probiotics to have on hand if we need it. I'm determined that if Phoenix gets sick, I will be absolutely ready. I think he'll have a better chance if he gets sour crop because he'll be a bit older and I'll have the tools empty his crop without doing the "upside down and squeeze" thing and I have Nystatin and Keflex and Diflucan on hand. I was so tempted to order one of those $150 brooder tops because I'd really do anything to keep Phoenix going, but I don't even know if I'll need it! If we end up pulling him for handfeeding, I do intend to buy one because like I said, I want Phoenix to have the best chance.


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## srtiels

Yes...I agree with the vet to discontinue the meds. So far from your description his crop sounds normal.


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## Berdnerd

Alright Susanne, I will discontinue the meds and monitor him closely. I just weighed him a few minutes ago and he'd just been fed, he weighs 76 grams! I won't be surprised if that goes down a bit tonight when I take the official weight since he'd just been fed and all.

Arthur and Poppet were just mating  I haven't heard/seen them mate until now and considering I'm right here most of the time, I doubt they were mating before. I can't let them have these babies. I did some calculating, and provided it takes 7 days for the first egg to be laid, and 18 days of incubation, the first egg would hatch while we're on our honeymoon. Of course. That and *if* we were to decide to ever let them have babies again, I would want to get Arthur and Poppet vet checked first.

If they lay eggs again, will they neglect baby Phoenix at all? Little dude is only 12 days old today.


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## srtiels

He is going to be a BIG bird 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the pair, healthwise or as parents. 

If they do lay again they should still take care of Phoenix. In fact they will recruit him to be a helper in the nest to sit on eggs and feed new babies.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, how cute would that be- little Phoenix being the good big brother?

Okay I know I've posted a ton of bird poop pictures in this thread, but here is a sample of Arthur and Poppet's poop. They eat those fruity Zupreem pellets, Just Tomatoes brand freeze dried organic veggies, and Ecotrition organic seed blend (it has banana chips and some other dried fruit too but I don't think they eat it). Does it look okay?



















By the way I just cleaned the cage this morning, the little seed bits are just from them eating and there's a lot of poop in that one area because it's under their favorite perch.


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## srtiels

The poop looks fine. Most of the color is from the fgood they are eating. Stop using the brand food you are feeding. I have found that seeds including chunks of dried fruit etc, are a crappy mix. If you like organic you might want to check out this site: http://www.totallyorganics.com/ OR switch to a plainer cockatiel seed mix.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, good to know the poop looks good! I didn't realize it was a bad brand  Will Phoenix be okay? We can go buy something different today and I can order some online. What brand sold at Petco would suffice for the time being? This is what they sell at Petco apparently:

http://www.petco.com/petco_Page_PC_...eCat=LN_Shopping_BirdSupplies_Cockatiels_Food


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## srtiels

OK...it is not that the brand of seed is bad, but I have found that when a mix has a whole bunch of other stuff in there it is used mainly for 'human appeal' and the excess aside from seed is filler, and most time wasted and not eaten...thus the bird is only eating a lesser amount than they should. If you can find just a plainer mix that does not have a bunch of other ingredients added that would be great. Just because it looks and smells great (the human appeal sales tactic) to us does not mean that it is the best choice for our birds.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah, I noticed they don't eat the other things. I'll buy them something plainer. I bought it because it was organic.

Okay, am I just imagining things, or does it look like Phoenix is sprouting some yellow feathers at the very front of his crest?! If he is, is he probably split to pied or could he actually be pied? I'll get a photo of his entire self later today so you can see his pin feathers.










His final weight for Friday was 77 grams. Oof! He now weighs 8 g less than his parents.


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## srtiels

If the next generation of birds is an noticable improvement on size and quality than their parents it is a good indication your pairing is good, and possibly the parents had some nice/good genes in their background.

The yellow your seeing can sometimes be seen on normal greys. When it feathers out it will look like a little diamand at the front of the crest. And the feathers around the face and eyes may even have some yellow.

Below is a pix of 'Wasp' She had alot of yellow on her face and you can see the little diamond shape on her forhead. She is just a normal grey.


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## Berdnerd

Wasp is so cute! And I can definitely see where she got her name, it look like she has a bee on her face  I hope Phoenix gets a diamond too.


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## srtiels

It looks like Phoenix will have a little diamond


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## Berdnerd

Okay, one last question for now. When can I start taking Phoenix out specifically to snuggle him and start getting him socialized and for how long at a time? I read 12 days. He is 13 today. Last night I tried to settle down with him for a snuggle, but he was opening his mouth and kind of moving his tongue around and I figured I was stressing him out so I returned him to the nest box after taking the picture.


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## Berdnerd

Aww just another sign that Phoenix is my priceless little birdy


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## srtiels

You can have him out for short times of 10-15 minutes several times a day. Just looking in the box and touching him helps to have him get used to people, and especially hands.

Oh...and another thought. In going back and looking at the parents and babies it appears that Arthur may be a true normal grey with no splits. It is VERY HARD to find a normal grey that does not carry splits...that is a rare find  If Phoenix turnes out to be a female she will also be a true normal. If a male a normal split to lutino.


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## Berdnerd

Interesting! I was kind of hoping Arthur had some other color mutation lurking in his DNA- the pet store he came from bred their own tiels and he was one of the only normal grey babies. He was my reward for getting on the honor role all year in 8th grade. My treat every time report cards came out was a trip to the bird store to play with the baby tiels. I actually got Arthur about a month before school was over because I just thought he was the cutest thing I had ever seen and my mom convinced my dad to let me get my bird early 

Does the fact that Kieran had speckled toes mean anything about what Arthur might carry, or is that just a coincidence? I was also reading some about Lutinos that are split to pied. Genetics are so fascinating.

Oh and great tip about petting him in the nest box. I don't know why I didn't think of that! Even though I've been medicating Phoenix 4 times a day, he is hissier than his siblings- Teddy and Neeja came around really quick once I started handfeeding them. Poor babies were so hungry all the time and would scream for food when they saw me and try to get food out of my fingers.


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## srtiels

The speckled yoe are an indication of only one of the parents carrying the pied gene. If the parent was split to pied then only approx 50% of the offspring would inherit the pied split. If one parent was pied then all the babies would be split to pied.

As Phoenix feathers out we can look for some telltale markings of split to pied.


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## Berdnerd

My Little Bird was split to pied. He had the speckles on the back of his head. Too cute!

I'm concerned that Poppet may be starting to pluck Phoenix. I've been looking him over every day for any missing pin feathers, particularly on his crest, and listening for any random/sudden crying coming from him. I just took him out to hold him for a minute, and noticed the skin is a little reddened in a small spot on his head, and about a centimeter away it looks like he has a tiny little red dot like a pinprick. About a week and a half ago I watched Poppet plucking some feathers off of Arthur when they were grooming each other and she has plucked her legs naked, so I was afraid this may happen. Honestly, plucking is small potatoes to me compared to sour crop, so I would be okay with having to pull Phoenix for hand feeding for this. I would prefer to have him stay with his parents (the non-plucking one if that is indeed what's happening!), but I will of course handfeed if necessary. I got some good practice on Phoenix's siblings! 

How do I tell specifically who is doing the plucking if he is being plucked? I will be keeping an extra close eye on Phoenix for today so hopefully if he is being plucked, we can figure out who's doing it ASAP and remove them from the cage. Poppet is doing most of the care right now (feeding and keeping him warm) and based on past experiences, Arthur will freak if I separate him from his mate. Maybe if he's in a cage right next to Poppet so he can see her he'll do better. I'm afraid if she is the one doing the plucking, he'll prefer sitting as close to her as possible outside the nest box to caring for his offspring.


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## srtiels

If you can get some pix's of Phoenix I can look at them to see if there is any plucking going on. Prefferably pix's taken from above him to see his head and entire back.


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## Berdnerd

Little dude is being fed at the moment (his crop was nearly completely empty), but I'll get him when he's finished being fed. 

It's just one thing after another, isn't it?


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## srtiels

Yes...but it makes the day intersting


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## Berdnerd

My day is plenty interesting already- I'm getting married in 3 weeks and have tons of stuff going on for that!

I just got some pictures of him. I'm pretty sure I can see an empty little hole where a feather was on the back of his head  Hold tight while I go through the photos and resize them. Getting the camera to focus on something as small as a pinfeather is hard! Got some aerial shots too.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, here we go. I'm pretty sure he's being plucked  I put arrows on one of the pictures. One of those was not there when I originally posted I thought he was being plucked, but Poppet went into the nest box to feed him.


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## srtiels

Yes...there looks like acouple of pin feathers was plucked. BUT it does not appear to be aggressive plucking, which a whole group will be pulled at once. What is going on could be over-preening and bordom. The parents will work on the pinfeather sheaths to help free the feathers from the sheath...and if the hen is doing it part of it is bordom from sitting in the box and just finding something to do.

Keep an eye on it thought. right now it does not to be much of a problem, and the pins will soon start coming back in to replace them.

Great shots!


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## Berdnerd

Believe me, I will be keeping an eye on this! I would rather be dealing with this than sour crop though. I must tell myself this. Phoenix himself is healthy and that's what's important, no matter what.

I was all ready to rush out and buy another bird cage right now (well, in 12 minutes when the pet store opens), but I guess I will hold off and just keep an eye on him. I will take daily photos of the area for you to evaluate. Like I said, I was worried about this because she's plucked her own poor legs and I've watched her pluck some feathers from Arthur's head.

Susanne, I'm so glad I have you to rely on for bird care info. Don't know what I'd do otherwise! And thanks for putting up with me whining. I really am just glad I have a healthy baby bird. I really didn't enjoy handfeeding the other chicks because it was so nerve wracking, namely with the temperatures. Different websites say different temperatures to feed the formula at and none of my thermometers register the same and I know the formula must cool some when it gets into the syringe especially if the chick is a slow eater, but I don't want to put in too hot of formula in case it doesn't cool enough and burns him... The Cockatiel Cottage website has tons of great info, but it has made me SO NERVOUS about everything baby bird. The tone of the website is very accusatory I find. Every single time after I handfed the other chicks, I would have sweat running down my face! 

Do you think it could mayyyybe help to put some new toys in the cage? I bought some new toys for them the other day but hesitated to put them in because I didn't want Poppet playing with toys instead of caring for Phoenix. Or maybe if I put a toy like this one in the nest box, she likes this kind of toy: http://www.petco.com/product/104724...reCat=LN_Shopping_BirdSupplies_Parakeets_Toys

It's not that exact toy but it's in the same style. It has a bunch of approximately 2 inch long colored straw things to pluck at and fuss with, then this triangular shaped thing partly covering it that is made of woven straw.


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## srtiels

No...I would not put any toys in the nestbox. In the cage is fine. But watch to see how they react. you don't want them to react like there is an invader or something in the cage.

Unforunitely there is so much conflicting info on the internet. I learned early on the three things that work best for me is:

1...the temp of the formula should be approx 104-106 degrees.
2...Feed 10 % of body weight, and NEVER go over 10cc per feeding.
3...Always allow the crop to empty betwen each feeding.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah those are the temperatures I'd kind of settled on as being good, and I learned the crop emptying thing and 10 percent thing from you 

I slept some. Checked on Phoenix again. Poppet plucked more of the feathers off the back of his head- he has 5 little holes now  Also when I opened the nest box, he was part on his side and flailing to stand up. He's very robust so I don't think he was laying down in sickness. I'm mentioning it because it's strange.



















So, what do you think? Time to get a new cage for Poppet? What should my steps be for that?

We need to run out the door right now but will be back in an hour or so.


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## srtiels

If you opened the box too fast he might have gottem scared and sometimes they will let out a cry and flip on their side or backs with their feet paddling in the air. When they get back on their feet they will try to rock and hiss and look ferocious.

OK...just yet I would not be concerned about the plucking. You might sprinkle a little Brewers yeast on the parents food. sometimes the plucking is for nutrients which they can get from the pinfeathers. Many times this can be a salt defeciency too. What you might want to do is make a piece of toast and lightly butter it and give them a quater of a slice. If the plucking is need for salt (from the blood inside the pinfeather) then this may alleviate the plucking some.


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## Berdnerd

I will try that though as you know, I'm very leery of bread right now! I know, all things in moderation...

He has more pinfeathers plucked  Poor babe. We're going out to buy a cage anyway because I want to be able to move Poppet into it as soon as you say it's necessary. We're going to need a new cage eventually anyway.

I took a video of what he does with his breathing/tongue and am uploading it to Photobucket. I think it's a stress response to being handled but he wasn't doing it until yesterday and I want you to take a look. It will probably take a while to upload, but I will post it when it does!

Also I just weighed him: 81 grams.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, my fiance thought of something- could the brewer's yeast have been the problem with the other chicks?! It's probably a different kind of yeast, but it's worth asking.

Video is still uploading. My computer froze so I have to start over


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## Berdnerd

Okay here is the video of Phoenix. He started doing this last night when I took him out of the nest box. He doesn't do it when he's in the nest box or anything. Does it look like a stress response or is it like hissing or what? What should I do about it? I need to handle him so he gets tame but don't want to freak him out.

Video:


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## Renae

Hmm, that's interesting. Usually they'll pant if they're hot or if they've been flying around (obviously your little guy can't fly just yet though). 

Could it be he's a bit dehydrated? or perhaps it's a bit warm in whatever room he's in? do you have a heat mat/pad (forgot what they're called) for him that could be too high if you have one for him?


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## Berdnerd

Solace, I was wondering if it was a heat thing too... He only does it when he's out of the nest box and being held. I do have a heating pad on low on the side/part of the bottom of the nest box because the parents are out of the box a lot. It doesn't feel warm in the nest box at all to me. I think I'll turn it off for the time being, just in case.


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## Berdnerd

I just checked on Phoenix again. Poor baby is definitely being plucked. One feather on his side (or wing, can't remember) and more on his head, though none from his crest. He started doing the panting thing again after he was out of the nest box for about 2 minutes. I wonder why he's so hissy, I've been handling him at least 4 times a day for the past week to give him medicine and handled him every day before that!

Also, I'm worried about something else. His weight for today is 76 grams. His weight yesterday was 77 grams. HOWEVER, his crop didn't have much in it when I weighed him and it was very full last night when he was weighed (I could hear him being fed right before I took him out), and I weighed him this afternoon and he was 81 grams. I'm guessing this is probably okay since the difference between a full and empty crop can be significant?

I feel bad leaving him in there with his plucking mommy! I can hear him chirp suddenly every once in a while and I think it's when a feather gets yanked. I bought a cage and toys and dishes and everything at Petco this evening and I'm going to set it up here in a little while so it will be all ready for Poppet to move into when I get the go ahead. I know he'll be okay until Susanne comes online in a few hours but I feel guilty leaving the little tyke in there.


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## srtiels

Yes...it now sounds like she is getting more agressive in plucking. A couple feathers would be no problem, but now she is moving to other areas which she will then start plucking plucking out more. If you move her to another cage watch to see that Auther does go in to fed him. You might have to supplement feed. At this age heat is not as critical. And you will start to see a slow downin the amount of weight gained per day.


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## Berdnerd

Okay Susanne, I will remove her. I'm so nervous. I haven't slept all night. I have a ton of stuff to do today too. I hope it goes well and Arthur feeds him! If he doesn't, could I put Poppet back in there just to feed him or what? I read somewhere about people doing that.

What do you think Phoenix was doing in the video? Do I need to worry?


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## srtiels

In the video he just looked like a scared little one, and was hissing.


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## Jenny10

Poor little phoenix, I hope it all works out well


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## Berdnerd

Okay, Poppet is in her new cage. I put some toys in it that I knows she likes as well as some millet in the bottom. On second thought, 5 am on a Sunday morning was not the time to do this because Arthur started screaming as loud as he could when he saw her in the cage next to him. I put the new cage right next to Arthur's cage so they're only a couple inches apart and can sit next to each other on perches. Hopefully that will be enough contact to satisfy Arthur and he'll take care of Phoenix! Phoenix's crop is almost empty, but it's 5 am and he's not normally fed for a couple more hours.

Right now Arthur is sitting as close to her as he possibly can and Poppet is sitting about a foot away preening herself! I get the feeling he's more attached to her than she is to him...

Susanne, how long should I give Arthur to feed Phoenix before I supplement him? I figure I can give him a handfeeding in a few hours if he still hasn't been fed (because of the amount of light here, they often don't feed until 9 or 10 am) and then put him back in the nest box. Should I feed him 10 percent of his body weight so he'll be full or only give him 5 or so CCs so Arthur will hopefully feed him?


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## srtiels

If you have to supplement feed him then only 1/2 a feeding would do, so that there is still room if Arthur figures out he has to feed.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, that's what I'll do. How long do you think I should give him to feed Phoenix on his own? His crop isn't completely empty but is getting there. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but as long as Phoenix's crop has some food in it, he's not getting hungry yet, right? And I know to wait until his crop is empty to feed him, but how long can his crop be empty before I must step in with the hand feed?

Poppet is still sitting about a foot and a half away from Arthur and ignoring him while he is smushed up against the side of the cage and chirping at her. At least he's not screaming! I turned off the lights!


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## srtiels

I would not let it be totally empty more than up to a 1/2 hour. When he gets empty or almost empty and Arthur has not fed him feed him a normal thickness formula.


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## Berdnerd

Will do. C'mon, Arthur! You can do it! Poor guy. He did have a mate and 4 babies, but I've taken them away one by one and now he only has 1 baby and no wife  If we have to hand raise Phoenix, I will put Arthur and Poppet back together.

Miss Poppet is eating millet. Arthur is looking forlorn. Poor guy just can't function on his own. When Michaela died shortly after laying their eggs, Arthur tried to be a good daddy and sat on the eggs all by himself for 3 days before he was overcome with loneliness and abandoned them.


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## srtiels

Yikes!...you have 2 options if Aurther does not feed. Assume handfeeding him yourself, or the least populat (but what I would do) is to put Poppet back in. If she is eating on the milet she knows it's time to feed. Plucked feathers grow back in. Real concern is agressive bite marks, then you would defintely have to pull him.


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## Berdnerd

Phoenix doesn't have any bite marks, just plucked feather marks. I don't think Poppet is trying to be a bad mom. She protects him and feeds him. Like I mentioned before, she's plucked her own little legs bare and she plucks some feathers from the back of Arthur's head. Not enough to make him bald by any means, but she does pluck him some. And I know she likes him! 

It's been almost exactly 1 hour. Arthur has screamed a few more times and has gone in and out of the nest box for short periods about 5 times. Poppet is acting like she's never been in a cage or sat on a perch before, the dope. She's so clumsy! She's always been really clumsy though, for the first couple months I had her I had to put all the toys and perches at the bottom of the cage. She wasn't even a baby anymore. Unfortunately, her assorted flappings are bringing Arthur straight out of the nest box every time.

I have the brooder all cleaned out and warming up in case Mr P has to move in. Hopefully Arthur will feed him soon and come to terms with living next door to his wife for the time being.

Would Phoenix be permanently damaged or prone to plucking his own feathers if Poppet stayed with him and plucked some of his? I would keep a close eye out for actual bite marks of course.


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## Berdnerd

I think Poppet misses her baby. She's running back and forth in front of the cage door and chirping periodically. Acting very anxious. I can hear Arthur in the nest box chirping to Phoenix, but he isn't feeding him yet... Come on, Arthur!


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## srtiels

NO...no, permanant damage from plucking. New pinfeathers will grow back in. Put Poppet back. Try some toast with butter on it, in addition to other foods she will eat. He is old enough that the toast is not going to bother him. The toast may alleviate Poppets desire to pluck, especially if it is cause she craves solium. The bitter/margerine contains small/safe amounts of it.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I will put her back in. Can you stick around for a few minutes first so I can post some pictures of Phoenix and how much he's been plucked so you can tell me how it looks? I wouldn't want to put her back in just to have to take her back out.

I was worried because Phoenix was completely silent and still when I just peeked in the nest box. He was asleep. His crop is almost empty, poor babe. Poppet is still acting antsy, she's actually chirping more than Arthur. Would a mom who was aggressive towards her baby still miss him like this? I'm pretty sure it's Phoenix she misses and not Arthur.

Going to go take some pictures! We don't have any bread or butter right now so we'll go buy some. Maybe it will help.


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## srtiels

Yes...it sounds like she is anxious to get back to her baby.

I will be home most of the day....just away from the computer off and on to feed the birds, etc.


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## Berdnerd

Okay I got pictures of the damage.

Back of the head:









Side of face:









Where a few pin feathers on his chest have some dried blood at the base but haven't been yanked out:









Another feather by his leg that has been yanked on and is at an odd angle:









And uh these just so how darned adorable the little dude is today on his 2 week birthday:


















What do you think? This is all the product of 24 hours. She has stopped pacing but is still chirping and preening. Arthur is actually sitting on a perch in his cage grinding his beak.


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## srtiels

Ah...what a cutie!  Such a sweet little face...

The one pinfeather that is chewed but not plucked is an indication she is doing this because she is craving the nutrients and sodum content from the blood. This could also be an indication that she will soon be laying eggs. many times if the body is low on sodium...which is needed for good contractions to excell an egg from the body...they will use any available sources. I have found that the toast with butter can most times alleviate this craving/need.

The plucking is not that bad...so I would put her back in. She may still pluck some more until she gets some nutrients/sodium needs met from her food.

Years ago when I had this same problem I learned to keep a salt spool (the red colored , which have minerals, for small animals) in the cage all the time. But NOT to do it after they had babies hatch because if they crave salt the parents can over do it and feed the babies too much. So buttered toast is the alternative when there are babies. But providing the salt spool in the flights helped to alleviate the plucking of babies when they did have them in the nest.


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## Berdnerd

I'm going to put her back in ASAP!!! Phoenix is making sad baby sounds and it's breaking my heart.

I think she's going to lay soon because her vent looks swollen. Would that explain why she is chewing him? I mean, he had pin feathers for days already and didn't start to do this until yesterday morning. I've been keeping my eyes open for plucking too and checking him over every day. Heck, I found the 1 she plucked right away yesterday morning!


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## Berdnerd

Okay, she's back in. She's sitting on a perch and preening instead of rushing to the nest box. Maybe she just needs a little time to collect herself! I hope she hurries up because Phoenix and I are antsy.


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## Berdnerd

Great, Poppet isn't feeding him either. She's sitting next to Arthur on the perch. They actually don't normally feed him this early in the morning, but his little crop is nearly empty so I'm going to make him some formula and give him half of a feeding here in a few minutes if one of them doesn't get in there and feed him something.


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## Berdnerd

They still haven't fed him or even gone in the nest box! At least Arthur was going in the nest box before I put Poppet back in. 

What the heck, birds?!


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## srtiels

Yes...supplement feed him. Also freshen up the bedding just in case she lays an egg.


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## srtiels

After you feed him it is a wait and see. If may take her a little bit to get back into Mommy mode and feed. You may have to supplement a couple of times til then.

I know you'll be getting married and the honeymoon so...so it would be great if they would fed and wean out Phoenix. Otherwise you may have to pull and assume handfeeding, which in that case he may be joining you on your honeymoon.


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## Berdnerd

Should I give him half a feeding? And if I give him a full feeding, should I put him in the brooder or back in the nest box? Seeing as they haven't gone in the nest box in over half an hour, I'm afraid he'll get chilled and not be able to digest properly. I have a heating pad on the bottom of the nest box on low but I don't think it's making things that warm.


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## srtiels

I would just do the 1/2 feeding with hopes of the parents going in to feed. You can feel the base of Arther and poppets crop to see if they have food stored in it. if so that is a good sign that they may go in and feed the little one. If not, give the parents fresh food and whatecer they will quickly eat. If you see them eating alot you can wait about 10-15 minutes to feel if they are storing the food in the crop or not.

If he gets chilled the pinfeathers would be standling up like spikes. If he is keeping them flat them he would be retaining body heat.


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## Berdnerd

I just refilled all their food and water while Poppet was in the other cage. Poppet ate millet in the other cage and Arthur was digging through the bowl of pellets while she was away, but other than that they haven't eaten in a while.

I guess I'll give Phoenix half a feeding then put him back in the nest box and keep an eye on the pinfeathers.

These birds are going to be the death of me...


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## srtiels

These birds are going to be the death of me...
---------------------------------------------

LOL...I had to laugh  I know what you mean. I am weaning out mousebirds and the little stinkers don't want to wean. And they cry and call for me if I leave the room.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I can't imagine what it's like for you! I have SO much respect for people who do this full time.

Good news is he's being fed right now! Or at least I'm hearing feeding sounds and both parents are in the box with him  I gave them some millet to eat while I fed him, and when I went to put him back in the box, they were both in there and he was SCREAMING for food. 

Hopefully it works out!


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## Berdnerd

They stayed in there with him for about 2 minutes, fed him, and then left. He cried for food for a bit longer but is quiet now. I just felt his crop and it feels pretty good. He's 14 days old- is his crop going to begin to shrink soon? His crop is full enough to keep him satisfied for a while I think. Hopefully they'll go back in to see him soon. I have the heating pad on the outside of the nest box on low and it's done the trick to keep him warm the past week when Arthur and Poppet have left him alone, so I think it will be okay for now.

Do you think it's safe for me to finally go get some sleep for a couple of hours? Then we can go get bread and butter to make toast for Miss Poppet.


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## srtiels

Yes...you need your rest too...so go ahead and get some sleep. You have some very good parent birds


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## srtiels

Oh...as to the crop shrinking in the size for capcity of food. that will start to happen when his feathers are grown out more and out of the shealth. growth will slow doen too because he will be trying to fledge from the box at about 4 weeks of age.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I'm going to go nap for a bit. Got all his dishes washed. Arthur and Poppet are still out of the nest box. I think they're a bit shell shocked from their morning so far. We all are!

I weighed Phoenix before feeding him. Only got about 2 CCs into him, he was hungry but having issues figuring out the syringe and I was afraid the formula was going cold. Anyway, back to the weight: he was 70 grams with an empty crop. Yesterday afternoon he weighed 81 grams with a very full crop, and on Friday his official weight was 77 grams with food in his crop. Do you think he's losing weight or is he okay? I know he's pooping because he pooped on me twice today and I know his crop is emptying because... well... it was empty.


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## srtiels

Stop worrying...Mama Bird...he is fine  Each gram in weight is equivenlent to 1cc of formula. So in looking at the crop size you can take a quess of how many cc is in there and deduct it from the weight total to get an idea of true/actual body weight.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I just woke up after my nap or whatever it was! Came downstairs and first thing I did was check my baby. He was alone in the nest box and his wee crop was close to being empty again. I thought I was going to have to feed him in half an hour or so, but apparently Arthur and Poppet took exception to that idea because Arthur hurried his butt over to the nest box and fed Phoenix about 30 seconds later! Then he left right away, I checked the baby, and his crop had a decent amount of food in it  Then Poppet came in and fed him too! So, yay. Maybe they wanted to make sure I knew they were feeding him because they didn't want me to think they're bad parents. They've both left the nest box again (this time they're eating), but as long as Phoenix is being fed and is warm, that's fine with me- especially since it means he isn't being plucked when he's alone. Little dude is still crying for food, but I know it takes a bit for the food to register.

At his age is it normal for the parents to be out of the nest box for long stretches? How long of stretches? He has some pretty good pinfeathering going on, do they do a pretty good job of keeping him warm?


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## srtiels

LOL...I had to smile when you said that Arther and Poppet raced in to feed the baby  I think their catching on...if the baby is not fed they may lose it.

Yes...at this age the parents will spend more time out of the box. Sometimes up to an hour or so at a time. They have been in the box so long that after awhile it gets boring, and to releive the boredom they will take breaks outside the box. Phoenix should be fine. And at night at least one of the parents should stay with him.


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## Berdnerd

Good to know it's okay for them to leave that long. He was essentially alone for longer than that this morning (in the midst of the Poppet being removed and then returned), but hopefully they're readjusting now and someone will sit with him more. I still have my trusty heating pad on the side of the nest box. At the moment it's just barely on one end of the nest box and most of it is on 1 of the sides, so I'm sure it doesn't get too hot in there but Phoenix can snuggle in one of those corners if he needs to.

We're going to go get bread and everything!


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## Berdnerd

Oh also, I noticed Phoenix has 1 yellow tailfeather coming in. Is this normal or does it make him even more special?


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## srtiels

As to the yellow tail feather. Normal grey babies will have 2 yellow colored feathers. One on each of the underside of the tail. When they grow out they will have stripes horrizonatlly going across the feathers. IF pied these yellow feathers would be solid yellow with no dark markings on them at all.


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## Berdnerd

Good to know about the tailfeathers!

We had to go out for a few hours and just got home. I rushed to the nest box. Arthur was in there, but Phoenix's crop is almost empty. I'm going to give them half an hour to feed him, then I'm going to supplement him with half a serving of formula. Hopefully hearing him cry for food will motivate them like it did this morning!

Actually, Poppet just went in... Phoenix is crying... praying for feeding sounds soon!


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## Berdnerd

YAY right as I clicked send, I heard feeding sounds! Go birdies go! It seems like me peeking in on Phoenix gets them to feed him. How odd. We'll keep going with that as long as it works, then I'll pull him to handfeed if necessary.

Okay he's begging for food still and Poppet just left. Going to give them a couple more minutes to go feed him more and if they don't I'll go check how full his crop is.


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## Jenny10

That’s excellent news all is working out well with little phoenix :thumbu:


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## srtiels

Yep...it sounds like you got them trained  You may have to do checking more often and see if they run into check and feed him.


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## Berdnerd

I just checked little dude and his crop is part filled. I gave the parents their little buttered toast square and they're devouring it right now. Hopefully they'll go feed him again soon.

Do you think they'll get back into the groove of feeding Phoenix without being prompted?


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## srtiels

LOL...yes they should get back on track soon. They are smart, and know you are keeping tabs on them.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, that's good to know! I'll give them a bit of time to digest since Phoenix does have food in his crop, then take a peek in on him again. I get the feeling his weight gain may not be as much today as it was for a while because before they were keeping his crop full most of the time. He's still 70 grams with an empty crop though (as of this morning) and I don't think that's anything to sneeze at for a 14 day old chick?


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## Berdnerd

They won't go in the nest box! He's been by himself for at least an hour and a half now. Good thing for the heating pad, but sheesh.


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## srtiels

Hmmmmm....they were eating awhile ago so you know they have food in them...so hopefully they will go in soon and fed. You might nudge him a little to see if he'll cry and if they respond and go in...


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## Berdnerd

Oh great, the power is out. There haven't been any storms or anything. This means Phoenix's heating pad is off (and his parents aren't in the nest box with him), the brooder is off, I can't heat water for him, and I can't even heat up the Snuggle Safe so he'll stay warm. I can just see myself firing up the grill outside and somehow heating water on it for formula.

Our lap tops are running on batteries. I hope the power goes on again very soon! I'm not that worried about us not having electricity except that I can't do anything productive for Phoenix without it. I really hope Arthur and Poppet buck up soon and take care of him.


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## Berdnerd

I'll go prod Phoenix a bit and see if I can get his parents to react to him!

Susanne, if they won't care for him, what do you suggest I do to keep him warm and get warm food into him? Stick him in my shirt and fire up the grill to heat some water?


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## Berdnerd

I just took him out for a minute and showed him to Arthur and Poppet and asked them to please go keep him warm and feed him. No signs of action so far. I wrapped a fleece blanket around the nest box to try to keep him warm and put extra towels on top of the brooder to keep the heat in in case we need to put him in there. Phoenix still has some seeds in his crop at least.

My fiance called the electric company and apparently there's a widespread outage that they're anticipating will take 1 hour to fix.


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## Berdnerd

My fiance is driving to where he works with the Snuggle Safe. If the power is on there, he's going to heat the Snuggle Safe, drive home, and we'll take Phoenix in a cardboard box with the Snuggle Safe and the handfeeding supplies back to work and feed him there! I hope the power is on there...


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## Berdnerd

Okay, power at work is on. I'm gathering up the feeding supplies so we can take Phoenix over there.


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## srtiels

You can also use hot water from the faucet to mix the formula. The water heater should hold hot water in it, even if the power is off.


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## Berdnerd

We're here at work. I fed him 4 CCs. He was eating so darned slow because he isn't giving me a feeding response and I was afraid to feed him more in case the formula got too cold. He has a nice little crop though so he should be taken care of for a little while. We brought the brooder and got it set up here at work, for now he's in the cardboard box with the snuggle safe and a towel. 

What temp would you say for him in the brooder since he's 14 days old? It's a heating pad with 1 layer of towel on top, then the Kritter Keeper and about 2 inches of aspen shavings, then a layer of paper towels. And a towel on top. Right now the temp in there is 85 and it's stayed there for the past 10 minutes. The temp in the cardboard box where Phoenix is right now is 90.


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## Berdnerd

Talk about BAD luck! It's 3 am. Power has been out for 8 hours. We're still at my fiance's workplace. Houses across the street from ours and on the next street over have power. The message on the electric company's phone is that power should be restored in the morning. Until then, we are spending the night wiiiiide awake sitting in the dark (lights off so Phoenix can sleep) here at work so we can plug in Phoenix's heating pad.

I fed him 3 CCs a little after 1. He's still not giving me a feeding response and again, I was afraid to give him formula that may have gotten too cold from being in the syringe. I'm going to check him in an hour and then feed him again. I hope he gets the feeding response thing figured out soon because then I'll be able to feed him more and he can go longer between eating! Good thing is his crop seems to be emptying fine and he's pooping.

Our out of town guest is arriving Tuesday and my house is an utter mess. I had been going to spend this evening cleaning and tonight sleeping... So much for that! This is the only time the power has ever gone out like this too. Bad, bad luck  I'm just glad we have somewhere we can go to plug in Phoenix's heating pad and to use a microwave to heat his bottled water. 

Hopefully the power will be on early in the morning so we can go home and I can sleep. My poor fiance will have to work all day (he just left to go sleep in the car).


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## Jenny10

Talk about bad luck, at least you managed to feed and keep little phoenix warm.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, yeah, I'm glad we had somewhere to take him! It wasn't a fun few hours, but at least Phoenix was safe.

We're finally home, power went back on thank goodness. It went back on right after I fed him 4 CCs of formula. When we got home, both parents were in the nest box so I went ahead and popped him in there with them. That was about 10 minutes ago and they haven't fed him yet, but maybe they need to eat first or something. I turned the heating pad under the nest box to low. I am exhausted so I'm actually going to go sleep for 3 hours. I figure Phoenix should stay full enough for that amount of time since he was fed the 4 CCs 1 hour ago. If Arthur and Poppet don't feed him or are ignoring him when I wake up, I have the brooder all ready to go for him. We're considering just handfeeding him full time but I'll think about it more when I'm more coherent.

I do have a couple quick questions for Susanne though.

First, what temp should the brooder be at for a now 15 day old chick? I had it so one end was 80 and the other end was 85-89. Two websites where I found brooder temps did not agree on the temperature, one said 80 to 85 and the other 85 to 90!

Next, how many CCs of formula should Phoenix eat every day? He weighs 70 grams with an empty crop. That's the same as yesterday, but he had a weird day since then and his crop is emptying and he's pooping so I'm not overly concerned. Also, how often should he be fed at 15 days if we decide to handfeed now? According to a website I keep referencing, he should be fed 1/10 of his body weight 4 times a day at 7 am, noon, 5 pm and 11 pm. Obviously since he's only eating 4 CCs per feeding right now because I'm worried about the formula chilling, I've been feeding him more often than that.

Last of all, how long will it take him to start giving me a feeding response when I feed him? It will be so much easier when he does it! It took Teddy and Neeja a couple days to figure it out. 

I have to share a bit of excitement. We left Phoenix at work for a little while and went to the 24 hour Wal Mart to get some more supplies for him, including another digital thermometer. This one is actually in agreement with one of our other 2 digital thermometers- the higher quality one! I can't tell you how relieved I feel because now I know which of the original 2 thermometers was the dud. It's great having both thermometers actually give the same reading.
Okay off to get a little sleep!


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## srtiels

Oh boy...what a time you have had.

OK...about the temps. Think for a moment...Phoenix has been fine in the nestbox...which is probably just a little warmer than your actual room temp. What you should try to do is to get a reading of the temp that is in the box. A measurment that is about 2-3" above the floor of the nestbox bottom. His body is used to this so aim for a temp in the brooder similair to what he has been used to.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I will put a thermometer in the box.

Phoenix just made things 10 times easier for me by giving me a feeding response! Woohoo! I was able to get the full 7 CCs of formula into him in 1 relatively quick go  Between that and the fact that I have 2 accurate digital thermometers now, my stress level when feeding is much lower. No breaking out into a sweat because of food temps. Of course I will be very careful with food temperature, but now that I know what the temp REALLY is, it's much less stressful.

Arthur and Poppet didn't feed Phoenix the entire time he was in the nest box with them. His crop went completely empty. I fed him and he's in the brooder. His weight is 68 grams, which is down 2 from yesterday, but like I wrote earlier he had a very bizarre day yesterday. Now that he will hopefully accept the full 7 CCs each feeding, he should start to gain weight, right?

I have a couple of questions about handfeeding. First, how often should I feed him? According to this website he would be getting 4 feedings of 7 CCs (well, 7 until he gains weight then of course it will go up) each day: http://www.cockatiel.org/articles/handfeeding.html

Does 4 feedings on that schedule sound good? And also, how empty should his crop be between the daytime feedings? 100% absolutely devoid of food, or just almost empty but a little pouch is okay? I know his crop should empty 100% between the night time and morning feed.


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## srtiels

I personally prefer that the crop is empty prior to the next feeding...not just the nightly feeding.


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## Berdnerd

If I feed him 4 times a day at 7, noon, 5, and 11, will his crop have time to empty the 7 CCs completely? That's 5 hours between feedings. If he DOES empty completely in 5 hours, won't that mean his crop will be empty for 3 hours in the morning before he gets fed?

I really would like to wait until it's completely empty between feedings. Problem is that with so much wedding stuff going on (less than 3 weeks to go!) and my friend being here, I can't really sit at home with him the entire day and wait for his crop to be completely empty each time. I will do that whenever I can, but there's a good chance I'll have some important appointment at say 3 pm and if his crop has a little in it at 2:30, I'll have to either feed him then or wait until I get home at say 5 pm when his crop will have been empty for a good amount of time. I'm afraid of him not getting enough nutrients like that.


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## srtiels

You can play it by ear. Feed him his 7cc...see how long it takes to empty..AND THEN plan your schedule of how often to fed.


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## Berdnerd

Will do! I'm just concerned about him not getting enough food every day. How many CCs should he be eating every day?

I fed him 7 CCs about 2 hours and 45 minutes ago. His crop looks like it has about 2-3 CCs left in it. Does this sound about right?


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## Berdnerd

Here is the paper towel that I just took out of the brooder. It's the accumulation of 5 1/2 hours of poop. He pooped in his bowl while I was cleaning out the brooder too, the poop was like a slightly darker version of the formula I'm feeding him. Does it look okay? Most of it was in some stage of drying and it gets darker when it's drying. The older poops had a slight greenish tinge to them. I'm feeding him formula that's 1 part mix and 2 parts water. The bag of formula suggests between 1 part mix to 1 1/3 parts water and 1 part mix to 2 parts water for chicks over the age of 5 days.










Oh and the silvery white stuff on the paper towel is sheaths from his pinfeathers! He's been preening himself. He can sit on my finger too but I'm careful so he doesn't fall.


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## Berdnerd

Phoenix didn't gain any weight since yesterday morning  Still 68 grams


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## Berdnerd

Good news is Phoenix's feeding response is getting better with every feeding. Sunday and Monday he ate a total of exactly 28 CCs each day. I'm going for feeding him 4 times a day. Every 5 hours during the day and then an 8 hour stretch at night. Is that enough food for him? Also I think his poop is looking good, it's bulky and a slightly darker brown than the formula. It looks better than the poop picture I posed above. That poop was after we went through the weird day of him being fed by me and his parents.

After his last feeding tonight, he weighed 78 grams. I'm hoping when his crop is empty in the morning he'll have gained at least a couple of grams from the 68 he was Sunday and Monday!


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## srtiels

It sounds like he is getting enough formula. Also you have to remeber that weight gain on a handfed versus a parent fed baby may be a little slower. Regardless you should see just a little gain for the next week and then it will level off and stop for a couple of weeks.


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## Berdnerd

Agh! I actually had a nightmare that this would happen! I just went to wake up Phoenix so I could weigh him. He last ate 8 hours ago. His crop is not empty  It probably has 2.5 CCs in it still.

What do I do? The Earmaxx syringes have not arrived yet but I ordered them a few days ago. I've been very careful with formula temps but maybe it got too cold on Sunday when he was eating so darned slowly so I could only give him 3-4 CCs at a time. His crop emptied Monday morning and Tuesday morning.


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## srtiels

OK...do you have any of the Papaya tablets? Or can you see if your local PetCo has PROZYME (dog/cat section)

What I would do is see if he will empty alittle more or empty him and do the AS (alka-selzer) treatment, letting him digest 1/2cc of the AS. The first feeding should be 1/2 of what you have been feeding. Mix normal thickness, add either probiotics or some plain yogurt, and then add papaya powder or the PROZYME. Either may slightly thin down the formula...do not thicken back up. NOTE: You can keep the mixed formula warm by placing in a warm bowl of water. if he is slow eating from the syringe and you are afraid the formula is cooling in the syryinge, just draw up a little bit of formula, as he eats that draw up some more, etc., until you feed the amount you planned to.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks for the quick reply! I'm going to see if he'll empty his crop on his own because I would rather not do it manually. Hopefully the Earmaxx syringes will arrive today. He's been eating formula at a good temperature for sure since Monday afternoon when he started eating at a reasonable speed. According to my 2 thermometers, I let the formula cool to 106 and then feed him quickly. I will try feeding half, refilling the syringe, and feeding the other half in case that's the problem though. The temperature in his brooder is 80 on the cooler half (off the heating pad) and about 88 on the warmer half according to my many thermometers. I noticed he was on the cooler half all night. Are those temps too low?

 I'm leaving town tomorrow and won't be back until Tuesday. I don't know how Paul will handle this. My friend arrived yesterday too and I feel bad keeping her cooped up at home all day on her first day in the United States. We were going to do a bunch of things today. She loves Phoenix though and will understand. I do have to leave for a while here in half an hour or so so my fiance and I can do important things like apply for our marriage license, get a marriage commissioner appointment, and take my wedding dress to be altered. 2.5 weeks until the wedding.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, it just occurred to me that mayyyybe Phoenix's crop isn't empty yet because I overfed him. I fed him 7 CCs last night and his crop still had some food in it, which would bring the total number of CCs to more like 9. Perhaps that's the problem? It didn't stop him from digesting that number of CCs before.

If I opt not to manually empty his crop, what do you suggest I do Susanne? If I give it a couple of hours to empty on its own, after it is empty should I feed 3.5 CCs with some crushed papaya tablet or should I give him some Nystatin or Diflucan first or what? I'm guessing if it isn't empty in a couple of hours I'll need to empty it myself.


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## srtiels

The temps should be fine. OK...if this helps...it is OK if he goes 1 to 1.5 hours empty, which is good to know if you are running errands, and are pressed for time.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I just checked him. He seemed a little cold to me in that it kind of looked like his pinfeathers were sticking up on the tops of his wings. He'd been sitting on the cooler end of the brooder for several hours. I picked him up and moved him to the warmer end. He can still waddle over to the cooler end if he wants. I also made the warmer end bigger!

His little crop is almost empty and it's been about 9 hours and 15 minutes since he was fed. Hopefully him being warmer will help! I think I'm going to move the brooder downstairs too. I put his brooder upstairs in our bedroom yesterday afternoon because our friend was arriving and I know it's quieter and darker up here, and I can check on him during the night without waking up my friend. 

Susanne, what do you suggest I do? We're going to go do our things and then feed/medicate/whatever him when we get back. We won't be gone for longer than an hour and a half and his crop has a tiny bit of food in it still. What I will most likely do is just call you when I get home so we can discuss the different options, if that's okay?

If he didn't empty properly because he was a little cold but warms up now, will he be okay or does he still have slow crop?

Going to go move him downstairs now.


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## srtiels

OK...since he still has a little bit of food in the crop if you can mix up some plain yogurt with the papaya, and just a tiny bit/pinch of formula...A total of 1-2cc with the bulk of it being the yogurt I would feed this before you leave.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I didn't see what you wrote before we left  Good news is we're home now and his crop is completely empty 11 hours after he was fed (it was likely empty for a bit before now). I have moved his brooder so it's in a warmer location. It was in our bedroom which was in the mid 60s. It had the heating pad and was covered with a towel, but 2 of the 3 thermometers were touching the paper towel layer and maybe they were registering warmer than the actual air temperature was. The thermometer that was dangling down in the air was registering at 80 degrees. I'm really hoping the slow crop was caused by a temperature thing!

What do you suggest I do now? Things I have that I can feed him include formula, baby cereal, spice mix, Benebac, papaya tablets, plain yogurt, acidophilus capsules, Diflucan, Keflex and Nystatin. I'll need to ask about the Nystatin dosing if you want me to give that to him.

I tried to give you a call but no answer.


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## Berdnerd

I called Susanne and she very kindly helped me decide what to feed Phoenix, but his crop still isn't emptying quickly  I'm so worried what will happen to him when I'm gone! I leave tomorrow and don't get back until Tuesday. I don't know what would be worse- if he dies while I'm gone, or if I get back and he's lost a ton of weight and is really sick and suffering. I don't want my baby to die.

Poppet laid an egg today


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## srtiels

I sure wished I lived closer to you, instead of the other end of the US. I would have gladly taken him and worked with him while you were gone. Hopefully his crop will move alittle better before you leave. Make sure your fiance know how to post and upload pix's. And also leave my # with him.

Ah...so possibly some of the plucking might have been triggerred because Poppet was ovulating. I would suggest to go ahead and let them go another clutch. 

*Just a thought*. Do you think either one of them will feed Phoenix again? If so I would try that. She still may pluck, but a plucked and fed baby is better than one that could have problems while handfeeding.


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## Berdnerd

Baby Phoenix still isn't digesting quickly. It took him about 5 1/2 hours to empty his crop of the 3.5 CCs. His poop has changed to green with green urine again  I don't know what to do. I fed him the same thing as this afternoon but fed him the Nystatin first, about .2 ML. Sound okay?

I'm going to be gone in 18 hours and Paul is going to be all alone with Phoenix that whole time! 

We tried holding Phoenix up to Arthur and Poppet, and Arthur seemed aggressive. He raised his wings at Phoenix. It COULD have been because of our hands. Do you think maybe I should let his crop empty and then put him in the nest box tonight to see what they do? Will them feeding him when he has these symptoms hurt him, IF they're willing to feed him at all? I thought he was more or less out of the woods!

I looked it up, and this new egg is due to hatch on my wedding day or shortly before or shortly after. That is terrible, terrible timing. We'll be gone for a whole week after the wedding. I'm afraid Arthur and Poppet have some infection that they passed to the chicks and a new batch of babies would die the same way.


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## Berdnerd

Phoenix only ingested 17.5 CCs of food in the past 24 hours because it's taking his crop so long to empty  My poor baby boy. His poop is green with green urine now. It's so sad. I fed him and showed my fiance how to do it. I don't know how he will manage while I'm gone, he doesn't even like the birds. I feel bad for both of them.

As a last ditch attempt, my mom had the idea to place an ad on Craigslist to see if there are any breeders who will take him. That's a great idea and I tried to write an ad, but naturally Craigslist has some stupid new rule where you have to get an account and then have the account verified over the phone, so I have to wait until the morning. Every hour is precious! I don't think there are any breeders up here, but anyone with experience would be better than nothing and we'd pay them. Susanne, I so wish you could take him for me!

So what should I do with him in the morning? Stick him in the nest box and see what the parents do? Is there a chance they would attack him? What should we do as far as medication goes? I have Nystatin, Diflucan and Keflex. The bottle of Nystatin says .1 ML 3 times a day. If we opt to go with that, does it sound like a good dosage or should it be more?

I'm going to type up a care sheet for my fiance in the morning and will have the link to this thread and Susanne's phone number! I'm going to take some pictures of my sweet baby before I leave tomorrow afternoon because I'm afraid I'll never see him again


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## srtiels

I feel so helpless in what to suggest, and I can imagine how scared and helpless you feel also.

That would be great if you can find a local breeder on Craigslist. They must be advanced enough to do Sub-Q therapy because this may be what is needed for hydration and to get more movement from the digestive tract. 1/2-1cc on each side.

IF the parents will keep and feed him that would be great. Don't even be concerned if there is plucking. I'd prefer a totally plucked baby over a chance of losing him.


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## Berdnerd

I'm going to try putting him in the nest box and seeing what happens


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## Berdnerd

I have to post fast because I'm about to head to the airport. Phoenix is down to 60 grams with an empty crop and Arthur attacked him when I put him in the nest box. Poppet wasn't too friendly either. There are now 2 eggs. I'm absolutely heartbroken and angry. I told my fiance how to care for Phoenix as best as I could and I gave him this thread address and Susanne's phone number, but I'm not hopeful. I took pictures of him this afternoon in case it's the last time I see him. I wish I didn't have to go on the trip because I'd much rather be home and take care of Phoenix, but the trip is unavoidable.


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## Jenny10

oh no i hope he will be ok, i would have posted earlier, i have been a little preoccupied.

i will keep my fingers crossed for you.


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## Berdnerd

I'm in Washington. I called my fiance on the phone and could hear baby Phoenix crying which made me cry  The stupid heating pad is a worthless piece of junk and fluctuating wildly with the temperature. He fed Phoenix only like 2 CCs. Out of allll the syringes, why did he pick the one without markings?!

I'm asking him a bunch more questions but he isn't replying and it's almost 5:30 am and I haven't had a chance to go to bed yet but have to get up in 2 hours. I'm going to sleep. He'd better give Phoenix medicine, find the other heating pad, and feed him.


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## srtiels

(((HUGS))) If he can not find a heating pad that does not have the auto shut-off he might want to go to a petstore and in the reptile section get a heat mat to use.


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## Berdnerd

I bought a reptile mat and it only raised the temp about 3 degrees above room temperature, it was a waste of money  I got 3 replies to my ad looking for a breeder and none of them are breeders or actually have experience with birds, much less sick baby ones. They just want to help which is sweet but I'd rather leave him with my fiance who I can coach through.


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## srtiels

This is something I use: http://www.mousebirds.com/emergency-heat.html I got the mat at Petsmart...but an online search may help to find somewhere that may have them close to you.


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## Berdnerd

Baby Phoenix is still hanging in there. My fiance is having trouble caring for him, but seems to be getting a bit better at it. He got the brooder temp up some which is good. He's giving Phoenix .2 ML Nystatin three times a day and he's feeding him regular formula- nothing fancy. He's really overwhelmed and while I know it would be better for Phoenix to have yogurt and papaya and everything in his formula, being fed is better than not being fed. He says the poop is black with white in it and light green/yellow urine. Yikes! I keep trying to get him to take pictures of Phoenix and the poop but he's resisting. I'm guessing the poop is dried up and that's why it looks black.


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## Berdnerd

Finally, an update! I got home this afternoon. While I was gone, Phoenix's weight dropped to 52 grams and stayed there 2 days, then yesterday it was 53 grams and I just weighed him before feeding him and he's 55 grams. I'll make tomorrow morning's weight the official one though. So it APPEARS that after losing a lot of weight, he's staying at the same weight and maybe even beginning to gain again! His poop has lost the fluorescent green tinge and the composition is good. It's still a little green, but not awful. I am very curious to see how fast his crop empties after this feeding since my fiance wasn't keeping the best track of the care he gave Phoenix and couldn't tell me if his crop is emptying faster. Also Phoenix is so cute- he looks like a real baby cockatiel now! He's quite well feathered. His feathers are so soft. His nails are looking long enough that I should clip them soon! He is 23 days old today.

I have a couple questions. First, should I start giving him Keflex? Does Keflex and .2 ML Nystatin 3 times a day sound sufficient? And what temperature should the brooder be at considering he's pretty well feathered and 55 grams at 23 days old but still sick?

Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm actually feeling optimistic about him at this point. The weight loss has stopped for the time being at least, his poop is looking better...


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## srtiels

OK...think like this: 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Your fiance obviously did something right, irregardless of the weight loss, and now from your discription he is on the upward swing. So no meds, if he hasn't been getting then, and keep0 him at the same temps your fiance kept him at.


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## Berdnerd

I did give him 1 dose of antibiotics already. My fiance was giving him Nystatin more or less 3 times per day. He did a very shoddy job of caring for Phoenix- he once went almost 18 hours without feeding him!! And he didn't clean the brooder at all except to change the paper towels. I got so mad at him a few nights ago because the temperature in the brooder was in the 70s and he was too lazy to go get a different heating pad from the drawer because he said Phoenix is just a bird. I basically guilted him into getting the heating pad. When I got home this afternoon, the temp in the brooder was 104 on the floor and in the mid 90s a couple inches from the floor. I've lowered the temperature (it's in the mid 80s at chick level) because there's no way it can be healthy for Phoenix to be in something that hot. He experienced lots of temperature shifts while I was gone!

I just checked his crop. He was fed 5 CCs almost 3 hours ago and has maybe 2 left. It is an improvement.

Since Phoenix will surely get more stable care with me back home, hopefully he will improve quicker. I will hold off on the antibiotics and see how Phoenix does with just the .2 CC Nystatin 3 times a day. Give that a few days and see how he does.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty. I fed Phoenix 5 CCs at midnight and gave him .2 CC Nystatin. Before feeding him, he weighed 57 grams. I fed him again this morning at 8 am and his crop was empty, yay! He still weighed 57 grams this morning, but that's up 4 grams from this time yesterday when Paul weighed him! I fed him 5.5 CCs this morning and mixed in crushed papaya tablet and Benebac. Also gave him the .2 CC Nystatin. 

His poop from overnight was a bit greener than it was late yesterday evening- not bright green, but a bit darker than it had been and the urine was yellower. Is it normal when they're sick for their poop color to kind of change between unhealthy looking and healthier looking when they're starting to recover? There was plenty of poop- probably 8 or 10 poop spots in 8 hours.

The poop in question (the one on the separate paper towel was pooped as I was getting ready to feed him his breakfast):


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## srtiels

When you download the pix...crop the area of the pix where the poop you want to show is. This way you get a zoomed in pix of the poop. When I enlarged it the poop seems fine, and as the digestion gets better so will the urine color, etc. The poop on the separate paper is normal.

That is great he is doing better.


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## Berdnerd

Too exhausted to write much but here is Phoenix this evening. He is up to 59 grams- 2 more than this morning. Hopefully he'll have put on some more at the official weighing in the morning. His poop is still kind of wonky, but he's digesting noticeably faster. It is taking him about 1 hour to digest 1 CC of food. How long should it take a healthy tiel to digest 1 CC of food, or more fittingly- how much should it take a healthy tiel to digest 6 CCs of food (since that's how much he's getting now)?






































this is a video. He actually wasn't crying until my friend started to record. Sorry it's sideways, will make another tomorrow.


How does he look for a sick 24 day old 59 gram tiel?


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## srtiels

WOW...I can't beleive the changes in him since his last pix's. he is getting to look like a real tiel now. You can tell if he is normal by looking at the tail feathers. If there is a problem the 2 center feathers would be shorter and this would form a *V* notch in the tail which is an alert to a problem during growth...and his tail looks fine.

OK...one thing...so that you don't get alarmed later on...in another week, maybe less his weight will stop gaining for several days to a week. This is normal and the fledgling age. he will try to be more active and try to fly. When he gets to this stage let him do any running or flying prior to feeding him. The reason why is that if he is fed and takes off flying and crashes the formula in the crop can get mushed back up his neck and cause some aspiration. Ususally you will know when they will soon want to fly. They will start standing still and flapping those wings as hard and they can to excersise the muscles.

It is hard to say how long it should take to digest 6cc of formula. Every bird is different, and consisteny of formula plays a role, and other factors (heat, activity, etc.) What you want is that he is regularly pooping and emptying the crop every 6-8 hours at his age.


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## Jenny10

pheonix looks really good to me, I know its hard not to worry but I think you are maybe worrying just a little bit too much, I am considering weighing my little one every other day just to keep an eye on things but let the parents get on with it, and not stress myself out too much.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, thanks for that info! As if on cue, he started flapping his wings this morning  His crop still had a tiny bit of food in it after 8 hours overnight. Last night it was empty. He weighs 59 g this morning, so he gained 2 g since yesterday morning. Is it normal when they're recovering for them to do better some days than others? I DO think he's recovering, I just need to know if he's normal or if I should add antibiotics or something. My feeding routine for the past couple days is crushed papaya tablet at the morning feeding, brewer's yeast at night, and Benebac at all feedings. Plus the .2 ML Nystatin 3 times a day. Yesterday he only ate 3 times, 17 CCs in all. I feed him as soon as his crop is empty and if he's digesting kind of slowly, that's just how it works out! How bad off do you think he is? 59 g and 25 days old? Will he be a normal sized adult? Also, how long can he be out of the brooder at a time and should it be right before he's fed or what? In general, I try to keep him in the brooder as much as possible because I want him to be warm. Our house is about 65-70 degrees because it's been cool here and we can't turn on the heater since we rent (only the landlord can). His brooder is nice and warm inside though. I want to socialize him but don't want to put him in danger of chilling, of course!


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## srtiels

Now that he is fully feathered heat is not as critical. Heat can also work against you and stress him and cause crop/yeast problems when they get older. So what I would do is gradually over a couple of days start reducing the brooder temp til it is down to room temps. You can also place a stuffed animal in with him so that he can snuggle against it.

Weight gain can be slower after a chick has had problems, but from what I see he appears fine. Babies that had a slow start will eventually catch up in body weight and size after they wean to 6-12 months of age.


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## Berdnerd

I forgot to weigh Phoenix this morning but at his second feeding he was 62 grams. He seems to be gaining about 3 grams per day. Does that sound okay? He is now 26 days old! For the past 3 days he has been fed 6 CCs 3 times per day for a total of 18 CCs. I feed him 6, wait for him to empty, then feed again. It takes him on average 7 hours to empty 6 CCs of food. How bad does that sound? He IS gaining weight regardless though so that is good.

He's starting to like me! Every day we're having a snuggle session. He sits on my chest and I put one hand around him and rub his head and back with the other hand. He doesn't cry for food when we snuggle and last night he closed his eyes! I'm also trying to expose him to things he might find scary. I'm planning to clip his nails tonight because they're so long and pointy. He's doing lots of wing flapping and today figured out how to climb out of the plastic bucket I put him in while preparing formula by grabbing the edge with his beak and hauling himself up, then stumble/walk/jumping down a balled up towel I use as a ramp.

Here is a poop sample from today. It is poop from 7 hours. How does it look? Most of the poops are dried up, as you can see. I've noticed that the urine in poops on the paper towels always seem darker than when he poops out of the brooder. Is this because it gets darker when it dries?

So, 7 hours of poop:








Close up of the biggest poop, it was starting to dry and get a bit darker:








A poop that he just pooped about 10 minutes earlier:









Is the color and size okay on these poops?


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## srtiels

His poops look good, and the white part is white. Part of the discoloration you are seeing around the dried and older poop is color bleeding from the solid feces part.

Ah...he sounds like he is going to be a little sweetie  

As long as you are seeing a weight gain that is good. But remember soon that should change soon. Now that he is flapping his wings in preparation of fledging (flying)


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## Berdnerd

I'll be looking out for the weight loss! When that happens, I read that the bird begins to refuse feedings. Since he already is underweight, do I need to try to feed him more often so he gets more into him in the course of a day? My wedding is in 8 days and the closer we get, the more things there are to do so I hope I don't end up needing to feed him 7 times a day or something.

Last night when I got him out for his last feeding, there was poop around his beak like he'd had it in his mouth. Ew! I cleaned his mouth with a little GSE water before medicating and feeding him. I'm guessing that he's beginning to forage on the bottom of the brooder and found the poop. I'm going to start changing the papers more frequently than every feeding! Also I'm going to buy some cheap dish towels today to use in the brooder instead of aspen shavings because I'm afraid he will eat them. Sound good?


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## srtiels

OK...when he goes thru the pphase of no weight growth, or the fledgling stage you do not have to feed less...continue as you have been feeding him.

He is of the age you can place some spray millet in his container, and also sprinkle some seed on the floor for him to forage. As long as he is being fed formula there is no need to also put out water.


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## Berdnerd

I'm actually waiting to feed Phoenix the last time for Saturday in 1 hour. I know it technically will be Sunday, but our feeding schedule got kind of off today! Tomorrow will be a weird day for Phoenix but there's no way around it. We will be gone from the house for about 10 hours  I plan to feed Phoenix right before we leave then as soon as we get home. We are taking our friend to Denali National Park and it will take about 6 hours total of driving time, plus time spent in the actual park. 

Phoenix is 64 grams as of his last feeding. Up 2 since yesterday. I'll weigh him before doing this last feeding tonight. I weigh him every feeding! He is getting very flappy with the wings. I changed the bedding from aspen shavings to a towel and sprinkled some seed in the brooder.

My friend and I are annoying each other. She told me tonight that it annoys her when I feed Phoenix in the middle of the night. She's sleeping on our couch. I can understand why it's unpleasant to be woken by a baby bird, but we ARE letting her sleep on our couch and I bought her ear plugs. There's no way to get around feeding him. She sleeps about 12 hours each night so Phoenix gets fed usually twice when she's asleep. Heck, I would rather be woken up by a baby bird than have to take care of the baby bird! I'm also jealous of her huge amount of sleep, I've been very stressed and am sick what with the bird care, entertaining the friend, and wedding prep since the wedding is in 7 days.

Okay, whine over!


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## Berdnerd

I have a question! How long can Phoenix safely be on Nystatin? Today will be day 11 of him on the medication. He's been getting .2 CC 3 times a day (right before I feed him) all the times I've been feeding him, but I know he wasn't medicated as regularly the 4.5 days that my fiance was caring for him when I was out of town.

Also his crop emptied 6 CCs in a little over 5 hours tonight. You can imagine how excited I am- that's actually faster than it was when I first pulled him for handfeeding (at that point it was taking about 1 hour per CC). His crop seems to vary- sometimes it empties faster than others- so I won't be surprised if it takes a bit longer again. Progress is progress though! Also I do not feel comfortable discontinuing the medication based on this one time that his crop emptied quicker. If it's safe, I'd prefer giving it several days after his crop appears regular and maybe even for several weeks if it is safe. We will be making a 9 hour drive in just over a week (for the honeymoon) and I'm afraid the stress from the drive could get him messed up again.


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## srtiels

OK...the Nystatin should be used from 7-10 days. He should be fine without it. A small amount of yests is a *normal* part of the digestive tract flora. You do not want to entirely wipe it out because it can cause an imbalance of intestinal flora and then you can have a bacteria flare up. Now just use the benebac or a probiotic for several days to replentish the good flora.

Yoy might want to rework your feeding schedule. What I work on is a 12-6-6 schedule. This means there is a 12 hr time period between 1 feeding and 6 hours between the others. What worked for me was 9AM-3PM-9PM This way you do not have to get up during the night. ALSO if he is starting to nibble during the day you can start to reduce the middle feeding by 1cc per day, and when down to 1cc for lunch for a couple days skip it. This way he will be on 2 feedings for a week or so, and then the morning feeding is gradually reduce. During this weaning off of a feeding he should be eating more of any food and millet you give him.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I will talk to my fiance about how frequently he was giving Phoenix the Nystatin. Is it safe for Phoenix to go 12 hours without being fed on that schedule? He only eats 6 CCs per feeding since he weighs a hair over 60 grams. My plan had been to feed him when his crop emptied and I was hoping I would be feeding him 10 percent of his body weight more often as his crop function improved.

I'm about to go feed the little dude again, then we're off on our day trip!


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## srtiels

You can increase the night feeding by 1cc, but yes it is fine to go the 12 hours. At his age the parents would no longer be feeding during the night, and he would be empty by morning or before.


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## Berdnerd

Agh! Phoenix is trying to freak me out! He went from 64 grams to 60 grams in the 12 hours between feedings today. We were at a national park and it took longer getting back than expected, but 4 grams in 12 hours?! That's 2 whole days worth of weight gain! Also there was some bright green urine (the liquid part) in his poop, but I've been sprinkling seed on the brooder floor and some of the seeds are dyed. The dyed ones run when they're wet so I'm hoping he just pooped on a green seed. I did not put more seed in the brooder tonight though because I want to see what his poop looks like in the morning.


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## Berdnerd

Well, Phoenix's poop looked normal this morning (no bright green spots) so I think it was probably dyed from a seed. The urine was actually slightly yellow this morning though. He gained 2 of the 4 grams he lost yesterday and is now 62 grams.

Most exciting of all, though... Phoenix took his first flight today!! I had him out and put him on the coffee table to run around. He did lots of wing flapping and after my friend and I encouraged him by flapping our arms, he took off. I let him take 4 little flights and then it was nap time. Him flying around was SO CUTE. Now I know I have to be really careful so he doesn't fly away when I'm feeding him or when his crop is full!

4 weeks and 1 day for a first flight isn't bad for a baby that has been sick, huh? What is the average age for fledging? Also he hasn't acted any less hungry, probably because his slow crop meant he was only getting 18-20 CCs per day already. I don't know that much about how tiel keel bones should feel, but to me he does not feel too skinny when I feel his keel bone. It feels the same as his parents.


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## srtiels

It sounds like he is right on schedule in the flying department. I bet he looked cute. part of the lack of weight gain and a slight weight drop was because he was getting ready to fly.


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## Berdnerd

The flying was so cute! We're going to let him fly a bit more tonight when his crop is empty again. I think you were right about the weight loss- I just fed him and weighed him before feeding, and he's 64 grams again. Up 2 from this morning and the same amount he weighed yesterday morning. So he lost, then gained 4 grams in about 24 hours!

I have yet another thing to be concerned about though. His urine has a definite yellow tinge to it. Not only when it's dry, but when he just pooped. The poop itself looks pretty good though. Do you know what this could be about? I'm stumped since he's doing well other than that. His last dose of Nystatin was at 9:30 last night so he's now medication free. He's getting Benebac added to all his feedings and crushed papaya tablet to the morning ones.


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## srtiels

Is the white part still white? That is what I go by as far as health. With feces and urine alot can be affected by what they eat. Is there anything that is a similar color? Back off on the Nystatin and see if that helps.


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## Berdnerd

I just checked the brooder and the urine is clear again. Very clear, actually! The poop color looks good I think- it is light brown with a hint of green. That's okay, right? The white part is white rather than some other color, but the urate is separate from the actual poop because there's a lot of urine. He's pooped twice since being fed an hour ago and the two poops have a lot of urine, the wet spots are about 2 inches across. I suspect the difference in urine MAY be because when I mix up his formula, even though I measure the formula and water, sometimes the formula seems too thick or too thin so I have to add a bit more of whichever is lacking. Maybe that's why?


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## srtiels

Yes...the water is proably what is making the amounts of urine vary.


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## Berdnerd

I think Phoenix just likes to worry me once a day and the yellow urine was what he chose today.

Remember the eggs Arthur and Poppet laid? My fiance "aborted" 3 of them while I was gone because they were going to hatch sometime between right before or right after the wedding and would be alone with the pet sitter for a week. Most of all though I am afraid Arthur and Poppet are carrying some infections that they passed on to the chicks and I would prefer these chicks to die early in their development in the shell than suffer and die a week or so after they hatch like the last clutch of chicks.

So. Yes. That's my reasoning and I think it's good reasoning. However... I can't help think... what if the chicks would be fine? So, possibly against my better judgment, the 2 new eggs Poppet has laid are going to be allowed to develop. They were laid on about July 20th and July 22nd. We get back from our honeymoon on August 8th. I'm thinking they will hatch right when we get back or a couple days before we get back. I just couldn't bring myself to kill them when they have a decent chance of at least making it to hatching and through the first few days. I candled both eggs for the first time today and the chicks look developmentally on target. I don't know if I'll be able to manage it, but I'm going to TRY not to get attached to them until they're 3 or so weeks old. If I do end up having to hand raise them, I won't have to go back to school until they're 3 weeks old so I'll be able to work the feeding schedule around when I'm gone and just be super exhausted. Though if I can make it through wedding planning, house guests and a honeymoon while taking care of chicks, taking care of them while in school will be a breeze!


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## srtiels

I think the problem was what the parents were being fed, such a bread, and wet bread. Keep them on what you changed them too once you stopped the bread and they should be fine with the chicks.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I hope you're right!

Guess whose crop is almost completely empty 4 hours after being fed 6.5 CCs? I take it there's not an illness called "fast crop"? His poop is nice and solid and a good color. He likes climbing in his brooder and getting up as high as he can, which is on top of the sour cream container I'm using for humidity. He's also pecked at the millet spray I put in the brooder quite a bit.


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## roxy culver

That's awesome!!! What an improvement!!!!


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## Jenny10

So glad to hear little Pheonix is doing well.


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## sidneymysnake

Berdnerd said:


> Though if I can make it through wedding planning, house guests and a honeymoon while taking care of chicks, taking care of them while in school will be a breeze!


Good luck with your wedding. I just got married in February and you couldn't pay me to go through the planning again, way too stressful. About a week before my wedding I found a puppy on the side of the road and all the shelters were full and we couldn't find his owner. The wedding will be a breeze and everything will go fine - just make sure you eat something.


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## srtiels

_*I take it there's not an illness called "fast crop"?*_
*---------------------------------------------------*

LOL...I'll take fast crop over slow crop anyday. The flying may have something to do with it. It uses energy and may have helped with the digestion. Now he is going to eat good and try to eat on his own better in addition to the formula to build back muscle and weight.

I bet you are releived since the wedding is so close. He's being a good little baby and trying to make things easier for you


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, Phoenix is a good little baby. He is 63 grams still today, but I'm not going to worry too much because his poop looks fine and it's normal for them to stop gaining weight/lose weight around now, right? When should I expect him to start gaining again?

How much Benebac gel should I give him? When I make his formula, I use 3/4 tablespoon formula powder and 1 1/2 tablespoons water. Of course this is not all fed to him- I have to make up more than he needs because 6.5 CCs is too small an amount to keep at a stable temperature. I add a worm of Benebac gel about 1/2 an inch long to the formula every feeding. Does this sound okay? I also crush 1 papaya tablet and add it to his morning feeding.


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## srtiels

How many days have you been doing the Benebac since you have stopped Nystatin? I would say do stop the Benebac 7 days aftter the last of the Nystatin use.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I will do that, Susanne.

Should all of Phoenix's poop look big? He has bigger ones and smaller ones. The color looks good to me and the urate part is white, though the urine color changes between yellow and clear. It always looks yellow dried.


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## srtiels

The poop quantity is going to vary according to how much he is eating. If he is eatting some on his own, plus the formula it may be more.

Another thought...what color is the Benebac? Could it be tinting the urine? Once you stop the Benebac see if there are any changes.

And where are some pix of that little sweetie?


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## Berdnerd

The Benebac is green. Maybe that could be the cause! Do you think I should not give it for a day and see what happens?


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## srtiels

Just finish the Benebac treatment and then see. I'm suspecting that that is where the discoloration may be coming from.


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## Berdnerd

That's what I'll do. This new tube of Benebac (opened this morning) is creeping me out because it's runnier than normal. Usually the gel is fairly stiff. It doesn't expire until 2011 but I'm going to e-mail the company and ask what they think.

Phoenix is 62 grams and can digest 6.5 CCs of food in about 5 hours. Can I bump it up to 7 CCs per feeding? He was getting that much when he weighed a bit more. I'm feeding him 3 times a day so he gets about 20 CCs per day right now. Is that enough or should I feed him 6 CCs more frequently so he's getting more food every day? I feel kind of guilty because with all of the wedding stuff (4 more days!) it would be hard to get in another feeding. I don't want to sacrifice his health or anything though.


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## srtiels

Can I bump it up to 7 CCs per feeding? 
----------------------------------

I would just bump up the night feeding. And the other feedings 6.5cc and see how he digests.


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## Berdnerd

I e-mailed PetAg who makes BeneBac and they said they'd send me a jar of the powder since it sounds like my Benebac may have been overheated and separated. I did not give any to Phoenix last night because I was concerned about it. We're going back to the vet today to see if they will exchange it for a different tube. Yay, another thing to add to our giant list of things to do since the wedding is in 3 days- several stupid things went wrong with vendors yesterday so now I have to do things like find some tablecloths and vases for the flower arrangements in addition to everything else.

I fed Phoenix last at 2 am and his crop is completely empty 8 hours later, so yay. He's been kind of yoyoing between taking up to 8 hours or so and only taking 5 1/2 hours. I don't know!


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## Berdnerd

Phoenix was 68 grams Thursday morning! I didn't weigh him this morning because I was in a huge hurry since my wedding is tomorrow. When I came home to feed him this afternoon, I was so excited to find millet in his crop! I was worried at first because his crop felt firm, then realized it was millet. Until now he's just been picking at the millet but not actually eating any. He accepted a full 6 CCs of formula this afternoon and I kind of massaged it in with the millet. When I went to feed him this evening (8 hours later), his crop was empty of formula but had even more millet in it. His crop was so firm that it felt like a bean bag. Not much liquid. He only wanted to eat 1 CC of formula and I had to force feed him 2 more CCs. I'm afraid of him getting dehydrated, that's why I made him eat it. I then removed the millet from the brooder and didn't put in any seeds or pellets either.

I have some questions. I would be SO grateful to get some quick answers to them and may call Susanne to ask directly because I won't have time to sit on the computer later today since it's the day before my wedding and I have tons to do.

1) Is it okay for his crop to feel firm and full of seeds like this?
2) You're supposed to let the crop empty between feedings, but how do you do this when they're eating on their own in addition to eating formula?
3) How can I keep him from getting dehydrated when he eats lots of seed but won't eat formula?
4) Will he get malnutrition from eating too much millet? I put seeds and fruity pellets in there too but he seems to just be eating the millet.

In any case, I removed all food from the brooder so I can see if his crop has emptied in a few hours and also so he'll take more formula and not get dehydrated.


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## srtiels

OK...he is trying to wean...and if he is having no problem digesting the millet then let him have it. Now would be a good time to place a small bowl of water in for him. He is going to want to cut back on the formula that he is going to want...thus he is also weaning himself from it too. Stick to the regular times of offerring formula, and if he eats less of it or refuses, then pass on giving it too him.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Susanne! It's like once he figured out how to eat, he just went nuts eating as much as he could. The feeding early this morning was the first time he hasn't acted like he's never been fed! Good news is in 7 1/2 hours, his crop has emptied almost completely- the formula is gone and I can just feel a few seeds in the notch of his crop. Not much at all. I can't find any seeds in his poop. Would you consider that to be digesting well?

A couple other questions:
1) Will he get sick if he eats lots of millet every day (to the exclusion of other things, it appears!)?
2) Can I give him seed mix or will he swallow the seeds whole and get sick?

I'm about to feed him and at that time will give him a bowl of water. I imagine it won't be long until he walks around in the water or flings poop in it or something! I won't be home all day to monitor the water conditions, hopefully it will be okay.


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## srtiels

What a smart baby  It sounds like he is digesting GREAT!!! Ok...you can give him the same foods you are feeding the parents...seeds, pellets...just veggies, etc, plus the millet and some water. He will figure out how to hull the seeds on his own.

I wish you a happy day tommorow


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the info, Susanne! Baby Phoenix is now set up with all that food and water. I wonder how soon he'll wean! When I fed him his breakfast, he had just a tiny bit of seed left in his crop. He was eager to eat the first CC but for the rest of it I had to squirt it into his mouth a little at a time. Looks like he only wants to eat big bird food! Is this a normal phase- where they don't want to eat formula when they figure out how to eat seed, but then want formula again? Or is he actually beginning to wean? I know that they resist formula before they fledge, but he took his first flight several days ago (and has flown every day since) and was very eager to be hand fed until last night, which is right after he learned how to eat big bird food. Also he will be 5 weeks old tomorrow. I read that normal weaning is 6 to 12 weeks.


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## srtiels

About now you should be able to start skipping the middle feeding. The night time one is the last to skip. So offer him some formula morning and night. If he starts to refuse it, don't give more...just what he will willingly eat on his own.

It sounds like he is on his way to weaning. It will be a week or two before he is fully weaned. What you can do after a week is show him the syringe in the AM and PM. If he acts like he wants some then just mix a little formula.


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## Berdnerd

Well, I put seed, fruity pellets and Just Veggies in the brooder this morning and forgot the millet since so much is going on. Just came home to check on the little tyke. It's been 6 1/2 hours since he was fed and his crop is empty. I don't think he's eaten any of the big bird food. I gave him some millet though and I bet he'll eat that! Do you think he just isn't recognizing the other food or something? Interesting. 

I have an important question: Do I have to make sure he knows how to drink from a water bowl before cutting him down to 2 feedings per day? If he doesn't know how to drink yet I don't want him to dehydrate from going so long between feedings.


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## srtiels

OK...you might want to place a piece of millet across or between the food bowls. As to the water you might want to lead him to the bowl with your finger, and dip it in the water and see if he will lick it from your finger. What parent birds do is repetively dip their beak in the water to simulate drinking to have the baby watch to get the idea. 

Today is the big day...you'll have to post some pix's  Have a great day...


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I will try that tomorrow! No time today unfortunately. Only a dedicated bird mommy would check her cockatiel thread first thing in the morning after 2 hours of sleep.

Off we go! I plan to find some way to get home this afternoon to feed Phoenix.


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## srtiels

Have a GREAT and WONDERFUL day today


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## Berdnerd

Baby Phoenix survived the wedding day! Of course  We rushed home before heading out to the ceremony so I could feed him. He naturally chose that time to be as stubborn about not eating as possible, but I got him fed and then we were on our way. Little dude is 71 grams as of yesterday morning so he's finally gained back all the weight he lost 3 weeks ago.

The wedding was beautiful. The day started out stressful of course, but the ceremony and reception were wonderful. Most of the guests cried during the ceremony, including my brother who read an excerpt from The Velveteen Rabbit. Our reception was kind of bird themed- the cake topper was 2 white doves and the candy buffet (instead of regular wedding favors, we had lots of glass containers full of different kinds of candy for the guests to pick from and fill up candy bags with) had a bird nest with little plastic eggs, egg shaped malted milk balls, and 4 porcelain birds. And a decorative bird cage. We had all this planned out before Arthur and Poppet laid eggs. There was of course also a porcelain bunny tucked amongst the decorations since we have 3 bunnies. Also my new last name has the word Swan in it. It was a very birdy day!

We have lots of stuff to do today, but tomorrow we will be packing up Phoenix and heading off to the honeymoon. Susanne, do you have any advice for the trip down to Valdez (about 7 hours) and the stay there? I think he'll be okay with the temperature in the car (though it's about 5 degrees cooler than he's accustomed to) but I'm going to heat up the Snuggle Safe and I'll tuck that next to the brooder in case he gets chilly. It stays warm for like 6 hours. We can always turn on the heater if necessary. I don't know if we'll have access to a microwave so we're going to heat the water for his formula in a water boiler. I have tons of batteries and q tips and everything I need to take care of him for like 5 weeks.


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## srtiels

Ah...your wedding sounded beautiful...Congratulations 

Phoenix should travel fine, and now that he is feathered temeratures are not as critical. he can start getting used to the roon/car temps. The Snuggle Safe sounds like a good back-up.

Have a safe and fun trip


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## Berdnerd

We're mid-honeymoon! Phoenix is doing well. I'm kind of exasperated though because he hasn't eaten much real bird food (millet, etc) in a few days, yet is still adamantly refusing to be handfed. I'm making him eat 7 CCs (he weighs just over 71 grams) twice a day and then he's eating a tiny bit on his own and showing no signs of drinking on his own. Does this sound sufficient? He's learning to fly better and is becoming a bit of a mama's bird in spite of me making him eat formula twice a day. I will be sure to get some pictures of him tomorrow! We've stayed at 2 bed and breakfasts and the owners of both are just tickled by him and think he's super cute. Which he is.


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## srtiels

Ah...he thinks you really are his Mommy 

As long as he is getting some forumla he will probably not drink too much, or not at all. Just the changes probably had him relapse some from weaning and eatijng on his own. Once he gets back home to familiar territory he'll settle down and start eating again.


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## Jenny10

congratulations on your wedding, it sounds like you had a beautiful day, and what a dedicated mum rushing home to feed little pheonix, have great honeymoon.

Big Hug.


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## Berdnerd

Just checking in again. Phoenix is maintaining his weight at 70-71 grams. He is still SO fussy about eating. He is 6 weeks old tomorrow! He's getting really good at flying and I'm going to see about clipping his wings here soon. Last night I fell asleep (we had a very long day) and he went like 16 hours without being fed  Poor guy. He did eat some seeds on his own in that time though.

I think we're going to stick with the every 12 hour feeding schedule until we get home Sunday night, but do you think I should add in a 3rd feeding after that? We'll be home and it will be much easier to feed him like that than it has been on the trip.

Also Phoenix is going to be a big brother here in the next couple days if he isn't already- the first egg was laid 18 days ago today. I wouldn't be surprised if it already hatched. I asked the pet sitter not to look in the nest box (didn't want to upset the parents and don't see what it would accomplish) and if he doesn't hear the baby being fed when he's there, he wouldn't know. The egg actually looked almost ready to hatch back on Tuesday- it was very dark inside and while the air cell wasn't tilted yet, I could see it had been punctured a little.

I'm trying not to worry about new little chickies too much. There's nothing we can do for them while we're gone. Parents are on their own, and at such a young age there's not much I could do for them anyway!


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## srtiels

I'd stick with the 2 feedings. The full amount would be at night and about 6cc in the morning. Once home and everything is back to normal he should start eating better on his own.

Hopefully this next clutch should be fine. Have a safe trip home...and post some pix's of Phoenix...I bet he has grown.

Also go slow on the clipping. You can do it gradually, over a couple days, so that he gets used to it. I'll start with taking some of the length off the wing flights, like a 1/2" at a time, and when you reach a length where he can glide and safely land then stop.


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## Berdnerd

We're home! Phoenix did fine on the drive home and I'm sure he's happy to be somewhere more predictable. I plan to leave him in the brooder for tonight, and then tomorrow or the next day move him into a cage! With the heating pad underneath and no grate and covered with towels. I think he'll appreciate having a bigger place. I think I'll put in a very low perch too because he likes to perch on his millet.

Of course, the first thing I did after we got home is rush to peek in the nest box. Phoenix is a big brother times 2! One chick looks like it's about 5 days old, the other looks like it's about 2 days old. There's an obvious size difference between the two. They have full crops and look good except they seem a little pale to me. Anything I can do about paleness? I'm going to try my best NOT to get attached to these chicks until they're at least 2 weeks old. I hope things go better this time around but I'm very disillusioned. I'm just glad I have my little Phoenix.


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## roxy culver

Congrats on the wedding, honeymoon, and the new babies!!! Things have been quite busy for you. Praying all goes well with the new little ones!!!


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## srtiels

Can you post a pix of the new chicks? If they are pale looking you might want to add Brewers Yeast on top of anything the parents will eat for a few says.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I'll try the brewer's yeast. Can't get a picture unfortunately because my husband took the camera card with him. 

I don't know what to do about Phoenix! I haven't moved him into his cage yet, the other heating pad is in my husband's car and I'm afraid one heating pad won't keep the cage warm enough. Our apartment is only about 65 degrees, management won't turn on the heat for another month or so. With one heating pad on the brooder and the brooder covered with a towel, it's staying at about 78 degrees. My plan is to rig up both heating pads and cover the cage with a double thickness of polar fleece to keep him warm enough.

Phoenix has me stumped! I watch him pick at food- he likes the millet and Just Veggies but I haven't seen any sign of him eating the pellets and it's hard to tell with the seed blend. In spite of watching him LOOK like he's eating, he hardly ever seems to have real food in his crop. I even went a full 24 hours without feeding him to see if he'd pick up the pace, but nope. When I went to feed him after 24 hours, he acted like normal, which means he did everything he could to resist being handfed and I had to force feed him. I worry about the force feeding because it would be easy for him to aspirate, but if he isn't eating on his own, what other choice do I have?


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## srtiels

You have a scales, so you might weight him morning and night. He will be a few grams heavier at night than he is in the morning because he would have food in his digestive tract. If he is refusing the formula his body is satified with the amount of food he is eating. If he is continually grazing on the food it is not going to accumulate in the bottom of the crop so that you can feel it. it is ususally the nighttime when they hold food in the crop.

Now that he is fully feathered the heat is not as critical. What you should do is over a weeks time get him acclimated to the room temperature. At this age heat can work against you and possibly contribute to a slower crop.


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## Jenny10

Congratulations on your new babies i hope they are all doing well, an updated picture of Pheonix would be nice, we havnt seen the little guy in a while, he probably isnt so little anymore, lol must look like an adult now?


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, that makes sense about the grazing! He does peck at food all the time and every once in a while I can feel food in there. Do you think I should cut him back to one feeding? Morning or night and how much? Is one feeding per day okay when he isn't yet drinking water on his own? I've tried putting water bowls in the brooder, but all he does is poop in the water. Ew. I'm going to wait until he's in a cage in a couple of days because I think giving him water in a cage will be much less likely to be pooped in, especially since I use covered bowls for water (had to use a squat jar in the brooder). 

I will try lowering the temp in the brooder. I hope 65 degrees is not too cold for him. In a month or so they'll turn on the heat for our apartment and I'll have more control over the temperature.

The Honeymooners (Phoenix likes to land on heads, particularly mine, when he's flying around):









Greetings from Valdez, Alaska! Wish I could make this into a postcard. Of course he was in front of a big window and not actually outside:









Little cutie:









He was standing up really tall for the pictures and he has his head turned slightly down in the last one so he looks really gaunt. I promise he isn't in real life. His feathers were a bit rumpled too because that morning's feeding was especially messy and his feathers were a bit out of place after I cleaned him up.


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## Jenny10

wow he looks like a young adult, he's got lovely big eye's, that picture in front on the window is brilliant.

I have to say you and your Hubby look really similar to each other, if you hadnt of said he was your hubby i would have thought he was a brother, lol, they say it's either complete opposites or we go for similar to ourselves, lol


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## srtiels

He sure has turned into a handsome baby.

I would still offer 2 feedings. Just a little in the AM, and as he starts to totally refuse it then skip it. The night feeding you can start to taper/reduce as you start to feel more food in the crop.

How are the new babies doing?


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## Berdnerd

I would say he already totally refuses both feedings- I have to force feed him. He wiggles around and moves his head and tries to get away and uses his feet to try to get the syringe out of my hand. He usually ends up relenting somewhat and will sit there and sort of swallow what I squirt into my mouth. I end up trying to feed him a full 10 CCs at each feeding because about 3-4 CCs ends up on him or on the paper towel!

Amazingly though, he DOES like me- I make sure to have a snuggle session at least once a day. I don't want him to associate me with unpleasantness.

The new chickies are doing well I think. They don't look pale anymore. I'm guessing they are 3 and 5 days old now, based on their weights. Baby 1 was 22 grams yesterday and is 28 grams today. Yesterday his toes started turning gray and he got some gray on his wings. Baby 2 was 13 grams yesterday and is 19 today. Here are the new babies yesterday, I cleaned their faces off after the picture!

Smaller baby on the right:









Smaller baby on the right:









Smaller baby on the left:









Smaller baby on the left:









So whaddaya think, do they look like 2 and 4 day old chicks in that photo? They were 22 and 13 grams yesterday. I guessed their ages based on your Watch Me Grow page.


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## srtiels

The new babies look good, and are nice sized for their age.

As to Phoenix...if he is fighting you so much, go to plan B...which is show him the syringe. If he acts like he wants some, then mix up a little formula. It sounds like he thinks he is a big bird right now. Just monitor his weight and his crop as you see him grazing on food. You are very fortunite to have a baby that is so smart and weaning on his own as well as he is doing. He is the exception to the norm


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## Berdnerd

When I show him the syringe, he runs away! Like "Noooo mommy, don't make me eat it!" He's such an independent little guy, though he does run back and forth in the brooder when he sees me and likes being petted a lot. I wonder what his personality will be like when he grows up. I'm assuming I'll end up handraising his little siblings, and am curious to find out what their personalities will be like in comparison. The past couple of days I've been putting Poppet's flight suit (bird diaper) on Phoenix when he comes out to snuggle. He protests it fairly heartily when I put it on him, but then does fine. I want him to get used to it now because I don't like poop everywhere. One of my previous tiels, Little Bird, was the most incredible guy- sweetest tiel I've ever met. He loved me and I loved him. I could pet him anywhere and he was just happy to get attention. He loved snuggles and would almost fall asleep. I put a flight suit on him for the first time when he was about a year old and he gave me 0 protest, he was that tame and eager to please! Phoenix looks a lot like Little Bird did as a chick. I suppose that's no surprise really. This was Little Bird as a baby:



Little Bird was also the only survivor from his clutch and was a tiny guy like Phoenix. I'm hoping Phoenix grows up healthier than Little Bird though. Little Bird had constant health problems and deformed toes, among other things. He died at the age of 3. I miss my little buddy and when Arthur and Poppet had babies, I kept imagining having a new birdy like him. I feel so fortunate to have my Phoenix. Their personalities are obviously different even at Phoenix's tender age, but that's just fine with me. I think Phoenix will be quite opinionated when he grows up and I hope he always will need me!


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## srtiels

If he is runnijng when he see the syringe then just skip the feeding. What a smart little fella, and he sounds like he is going to have a great personality. 

Little bird looks like he was split to pied.


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## Berdnerd

Yep, Little Bird was split to pied. I always wondered if maybe he wasn't a very light pearl pied because he had 1 pearl feather on his chest that lost it's pearl after a couple molts.

Phoenix is going to have a cool personality. His nickname is Fifi McFussypants because he's so good at protesting things he doesn't like. He's such a sweet baby though and so far does well with anyone holding him- I'm going to try to keep that up so he will be well socialized!


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## srtiels

_* His nickname is Fifi McFussypants because he's so good at protesting things he doesn't like.*_
*------------------------------------*

LOL...he sounds like he is going to be quite the charactor and very opinionated


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## Berdnerd

Time for an update on my babes! Everyone is doing well. Phoenix is still trying to be a big bird. I really AM going to get him moved into his cage tonight or tomorrow, then I think his weaning will take off even more. The little babies are doing well, too. I'm guessing they are 5 and 7 days old today because I've been weighing them daily for 4 days and their weights are pretty much exactly what the chick on the Watch Me Grow page weigh at those ages. Today the older chick is 39 grams and has his eyes open (not all the way, but pretty good slits) and a good amount of pinfeathers and a little pinny hairdo. The younger chick is 28 grams (the exact same as the older chick 2 days ago) and his eyes are peeping open, too! He's getting pinfeathers also. Arthur and Poppet are being good parents so far and no sign of illness in the babies yet, thank goodness. Today I had to add more aspen shavings to the nest box because the babies are pooping so much. The nest box doesn't smell bad though.

I will take pictures of the chickies tomorrow!


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## Jenny10

so glad to hear the babies are doing well


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## Berdnerd

So Phoenix's cage is ready for him to move into! The only thing is that it's only 72 degrees in there. Too cold? The cage has a heating pad underneath and a double layer of polar fleece on top to keep the warmth in. What I will likely do is wait until we get home from the fair this afternoon, then put him in the cage and strap the heating pad that's under his brooder right now onto the side of the cage so he has some extra heat. Then hopefully I can remove it tomorrow once he's had a bit of time to acclimate.

My babies are 6 and 8 days old today. I haven't checked on them yet today, but I compared their weights yesterday to the weights of their siblings at those ages and they both are heavier than their siblings were, at ages where their siblings did not yet seem ill. Kieran, Teddy and Neeja all showed the first signs of illness at 7-8 days old. I'm hoping these little babies will make it through okay. It's odd how attached I got to their older siblings, I still think of my little lost babies and will never forget them even though none of them made it past 14 days. I'm glad I have my Phoenix, he's like a consolation prize of sorts. And if these two babies make it, even better. I'm currently working on coming up with perfect names for them, I have so many ideas. I'm going to wait a few more days before bestowing names upon them though. I probably should just name them now since I'd feel really bad if they died nameless (it would be like I didn't care), so maybe I should name them now! Decisions!

Any name ideas? They need special, strong names that are potentially gender neutral in some sense.


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## Berdnerd

The temperature in the cage is 75 so I decided it is safe for Phoenix! I just put him in his new cage a few minutes ago and set him up with millet, food in his bowl, and water in his other bowl, and of course two perches. I set him on one of the perches and he did so good! Perched like a champ and even felt confident enough to stretch and flap his wings a bit while sitting on it. I'm so proud of my little baby. He seems a little apprehensive though and is fussing a lot. Not making the "feed meeee!" sound, but a high pitched whining sound that he makes when he wants to be with me. He even got off the perch and went over to the side of the cage where the blanket is a bit higher up (for ventilation) and is running back and forth and fussing because he can see me.


My baby perching like a big bird!










I'm going to go reassure him a bit, then it's off to the fair! On the way home we're going to stop and get some toys for Phoenix. I would like to start trying to get him to eat veggies and fresh foods- what should I try, how should I prepare it, and how long should I leave it in the cage? He will be 7 weeks tomorrow.


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## Jenny10

Pheonix looks great being big bird now, lol


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## srtiels

Look at that big bird  He looks like he is smiling. And it sounds like he is training you, and is spoiled...LOL


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## Berdnerd

Doesn't he look so proud of himself? He's been eating out of his food bowl great and I've been dunking his beak into his water bowl several times a day. Hopefully he gets it soon! It's so cute to watch him move around the cage. He's actually pretty coordinated and is climbing everywhere. I was amazed yesterday when he fluttered over a perch that's about 6 inches off the ground. It was like he hopped over a hurdle and was so graceful. That being said, he doesn't really have the hang of climbing backwards down the bars of the cage and I get the feeling his tail feathers are going to be a little ragged looking!

Here is Phoenix with his little siblings yesterday. He was a bit disconcerted by how loud the little turkeys are!










Babies are doing well I think. Yesterday they were 6 and 8 days old. 6 day old weighed 36 grams, 8 day old weighed 45 grams. Both are on par with the chick from Watch Me Grow (the younger one actually a little heavier) and both weigh more than their siblings did at their ages. For instance, Phoenix and Neeja both only weighed 25 grams at 6 days and the younger chick is 36! Neither Phoenix nor Neeja were outwardly showing signs of illness at 6 days either. The younger chick DID have some air in his crop (you can see it in the picture), but I burped him. I think he just gulped it in when crying.


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## roxy culver

All I got to say is that you got some cuties!!!


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## srtiels

Ah...look at that proud Phoenis looking at the babies. The babies look great. Since this is the parents second clutch they will be better feeders and parents. I think the first time around was just a diet problem and not the parents.


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## Jenny10

wow, your chicks look great, they are massive, lol, and Phenoix looks great as well.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, guys! Good to know my little ones are lookin' good.

It has been a very happy day here. Phoenix is loving his new cage and eating on his own very consistently (though his mastery of the water bowl is still questionable), the little chicks are doing well, and the birds have a new fuzzy sibling! We were at the fair last night with the idea in our heads of getting another bunny if we found the perfect one. Perfect bunny was quickly located (and I mean perfect, I didn't think I'd find one I really wanted)! But she had already been sold to someone else  Then I got a phone call this morning saying the other buyer had backed out and she was mine if I wanted her! We practically flew to the fairgrounds to get her. She's a gorgeous little 10 week old sable point Holland Lop and I've been floating with happiness all day. I will post a picture of her later tonight!

Aside from the new bunny (who is definitely the highlight of the weekend, seriously, I love her already), we got Phoenix a whole bunch of new toys today! I can't wait to see if he likes them. Got him a swinging perch and a ladder too. And then we had ice cream  Okay so that's not pet related, but it was fun anyway.

Later I'll post pictures of Fifi with all of his loot!

Oh and I want to introduce him to fruits and veggies and stuff. He likes the freeze dried veggies already. I was planning to just go to the store and pick up a bag of frozen veggies, then cook them for a couple minutes in the microwave so they get soft. Does this sound like a good plan? They will be small and look very similar to the dried ones he already eats. Any other suggestions for fresh food for him? Would dried pasta be a good choice? I know cooked pasta is fine but I'd rather not cook some just for him and we aren't having noodles for dinner.

Oh yayyy!! Phoenix just dipped his beak in the water all by himself! I wonder how many times he's done that today and I just didn't see??


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## srtiels

Ah...congratulations on your new bunny 

You could probably try some frozen mixed veggoes. Give them raw...this way it does not destroy the natural enzymes. What I do is take a spoon or two of the mixed veggies and put them in a cup of hot water. This will thaw them out, and then I drain the water.

I wouldn't give dried pasta. it might be too hard on the crop and dogestive tract. You could probably get a pkg. of those cheap Top Ramen noodles and break off a small amount to coook and give at a time.


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## Berdnerd

Darn it! I ended up cooking noodles for dinner last night anyway so Phoenix could try some (I'm such a pushover) and I went and forgot to actually GIVE him some. I just remembered now when I checked this thread. Oops! I did give him some thawed frozen veggies though. He didn't eat any, but he sat on the edge of the food bowl. I'll just offer some every day and I'm sure he'll try it out. 

He's loving being a big bird! He hasn't been hand fed in 2 days now and so far no weight loss- he did gain a gram though. I've seen him drinking on his own, too! He loves his big cage and I've seen him playing with his new toys. When I open the door of the cage, he likes to fly to the opening. I think he's really quite coordinated for a 7 week old birdy.


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## Berdnerd

Well, I just weighed my little chickies and their weights are starting to fall behind. I'm going to weigh them later this evening again because that's when I normally weigh them and neither of them had full crops this time- they were alone in the nest box and the younger chick only had his crop about 1/3 full. The older chick's crop had more food in it but it wasn't full. I'm a bad mommy and didn't weigh them yesterday because there was so much going on!

So the weights from a few minutes ago:

10 day chick- 52 grams (7 g increase from a day and a half ago, his crop had more in it than his sibling's but wasn't full)
8 day chick- 40 grams (4 g increase from a day and a half ago, his crop did not have a lot in it this time though)

Hopefully Arthur and Poppet will get in there and feed the chicks now and their weights will be better this evening. I can hear some feeding sounds right now actually, Arthur went in the nest box.

The good thing at least is that I would feel comfortable taking over the handfeedings now if the parents begin to shirk their responsibilities. The chicks are big enough now. I mean, even the younger chick weighs almost 20 grams more than poor Kieran did the day he died.


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## srtiels

Stop being such a nervous Mommy...they'll be fine  it is hard to judge actual/rue weight when there is food in the crop...cause the weight will vary as they digest.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, okay, I'll try to back off on the worrying  I'll be watching them closely the next few days (as if I hadn't already been doing that) for signs of Arthur and Poppet ditching the babies and plucking their feathers.

Susanne, is their anything I can do to prevent Poppet from plucking the babies this time? Anything preventative? Like should I give them a tiny square of buttered toast every day starting tomorrow or something so she gets salt?


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## srtiels

Yes...try the buttered toast. The small amount of sodium/salt may be benefical to them.

As to the plucking, hopefully they may not do that this time. It could have been stress related the first time around. But if they do, and it is only a little bit you might leave them in the box. As you've seen the feathers do grow back.


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## Berdnerd

I'll try a tiny bit of buttered toast every day then, starting tomorrow.

Once these chicks are out of the nest, I would like to separate Arthur and Poppet because I don't want more babies and it's not healthy for them to keep having babies either. I'm HOPING they just won't lay anymore eggs, in which case I'll just leave them together. But if they do, what can I do? Should I just take Arthur out of the cage and leave Poppet in there? He will be VERY unhappy, judging from past experience. When Phoenix was 2 weeks old and I took Poppet out for an hour and a half, Arthur screamed his head off even though she was 3 inches away in the cage next to his. I'm hoping that if I do need to separate them, at least one of the new chicks will turn out to be a boy so he can be buddies with Daddy when he grows up. I don't know if Poppet will need a feathered companion or not.


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## srtiels

OK...do you have another cage? If so...this is what I do. I never separate my pairs. What I do is have a cage with a box for breeding, and another cage that is larger as a rest cage. NOTE: they may still mate in the rest cage, but it may just be for pleasure only. DO NOT give them a nestbox. If a hen lays an egg in the rest flight...no nestbox...just leave it lay...and many times she may stop at one egg. Overtime my tiels have related to which cages are for play and work


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## roxy culver

I like that idea...I was trying to figure out how to get mine to take a break!


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## srtiels

Thanks Roxy  it took awhile to figure it out, but once the tiels recognized the different caging they were fine. it made it nicer when it was time to set them up in a smaller (than the flight) breeding cage...then they would go right to nest. When setup it was for 2 clutches, and then back into the large group flight.


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## roxy culver

That's what I plan on doing...two clutches then break time. One question though, should the clutches be one after the other or have time in between?


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## srtiels

I ususally let them go 2 clutches in a row. If in the 1st clutch they have a really exceptional baby I'd like to hold back I let them keep it and wean it out as they are on the 2nd clutch. many times they will teach this baby to help sit on the eggs, and also have it help feed the babies in the next clutch. This way when I rest the pair the baby can stay with them in the flight.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the advice! I don't know if it will work for us though... I don't have any spare cages (the one I just bought has been claimed by Phoenix) and Arthur and Poppet are in a very large, expensive cage. I don't know if just removing the nest box will work either because if you remember allllll the way back to the beginning of this thread, they laid 5 eggs on the floor of the cage when they didn't have a nest box! They sat on them intermittently when on the cage bottom and the eggs didn't hatch, so maybe it would work out that way again, but I'm not very confident about it. I think they didn't sit on them right that first time because Poppet had no idea what was going on and didn't know to sit on them- Arthur did all of the incubating. I know giving them lots of night time is supposed to stop the laying too, but after the first egg I covered the cage for about 18 hours a day and it didn't deter them at all. Birds are Alaskan, they're used to weird amounts of daylight!

I'll have to think more about what to do. The cage Arthur and Poppet in is so big that I was actually thinking of dividing it in half horizontally and putting a bird (or 2 birds) in each half if both chicks survive and we keep them both. Would that be enough of a "change" I wonder? We don't really have space for a lot of giant bird cages at the moment...

As for the actual babies, Phoenix is SO happy being a big boy! I insulted him greatly last night though by giving him a hand feeding after he went 2 days without. I'm not completely confident in his water drinking abilities- I've seen him dip his beak in the water bowl several times each day, but it doesn't look like he drinks like his parents. So I fed him 4 CCs of kind of runny formula. I tried doing just water, but he resists so much and water is so thin that he inhales it too easily.

I haven't checked on the other 2 chicks today, but I've heard them. This morning we found a note from the landlord saying people were going to be by today for an inspection- because the owner is looking to sell the property- yayyyy. Hooray for only a few hours' notice! Our apartment isn't exactly tidy what with everything that's been going on, AND I have a painful eye infection. I did what I could to tidy it though so hopefully all will be fine. Our apartment is cluttered, but not dirty. If I'd had more notice, I would have been sure to get the apartment extra spiffy. It is what it is, even with it's terrible timing.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, just checked on the "little chicks!" The older one is 11 days today and 61 g (up 9 g from yesterday) and the younger one is 9 days and 52 grams (up 12 from yesterday). They're both smaller than the chick in Watch Me Grow, but I think they're doing okay! 

I wonder if it may be time to name them soon  They're both older than their siblings were when they got sick. Well, Phoenix got sick at like 17 days, but he survived so that doesn't count. I think maybe that being on the antibiotics and antifungal for so long (from 6 days old to I think 14 days old) and then coming off of it when he was pulled for handfeeding could have contributed to the slow crop or something. He never got so bad that his crop needed emptying or anything and although he lost 20 grams, he gained them back and I think is doing splendidly now.


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## Berdnerd

It's so funny- the smaller chicks are big enough now that the nest box bounces when they're being fed! I'm going to do their daily weigh in in a couple hours, I wouldn't be surprised if the older chick weighs as much (or almost as much) as Phoenix. Little chunker! I am happy with big babies though and really hope neither of them gets sick.

Phoenix is doing well. He spent about 3 hours out of his cage with us last night, in Poppet's bird diaper. I clipped the first 2 feathers on both of his wings and let him fly around some. I'll clip 2 more tonight. He chose to spend most of his time out with my husband, sitting on his shoulder doing bird things. It was so funny, he was very into preening his feathers last night and he was sitting so close to my husband that whenever he would lean over to clean the feathers under his wing, the tip of his hairdo would tickle my husband's neck, making him laugh and make hilarious faces. Phoenix is like a tiny, feathery master of torture.


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## srtiels

Ah...Phoenix sounds like such a lovebug  It sounds like the new babies are doing good too.

I remember I had one large clutch of babies in the box that shook it so much when they were fed the box came loose from the cage. I have even had the bottom of the nestbox work loose from the babies bobbing so hard when they were fed. I now use heavy duty staples to staple the bottoms to the sides so that they don't work loose.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I need your advice quick! I heard the babies making funny sounds, peeked in the nest box, and found the older chick with a bloody wound the size of a kernel of corn on his back. On closer inspection, he's had pinfeathers plucked too. The younger chick is unharmed. Both parents were in the nest box and I suspect Arthur may have attacked his baby. What do you think, based on the photo:










I weighed them both and they are both 61 grams at 12 and 10 days. The older chick weighed that much yesterday- hasn't gained at all! The younger one is up 9 grams since yesterday.

My instinct here is to simply pull the babies to hand raise and take down the nest box. I don't know who hurt the baby, or if it was even intentional (I suppose Poppet could have gotten carried away with the plucking, BUT there aren't pinfeathers where the wound is). I am keeping the babies warm outside the nest box while I fire up the brooder.

What do you think I should do? Hand raise?


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## srtiels

Thw wound looks like a toenail injury. 

Go with your gut...if it says pull them, then go ahead and pull them. Do it right after you see both parents feed them. You want the parents to empty their crops into the babies so that they don't have excess food in the crop, plus the stress of the babies gone could stress them so that the food turns yeasty or sour, and them get sick.


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## Berdnerd

I think I'm just going to pull them. One of the babies was fed right before I looked in the nest box, and both have full crops right now. Hopefully Arthur and Poppet will be okay (and the babies!) and I'm making the right choice! I suppose I could leave the younger chick in the nest box, but I'm kind of inclined to just take them both out at the same time.

Also, Arthur and Poppet haven't started mating again yet, so I'm hoping if I get the nest box down before they do, we won't have anymore babies.


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## srtiels

Good game plan! Keep us posted on how they do. Also, on the off chance Poppet does lay an egg after the box is down...don't panic, just leave it and hopefully she will stop at 1 or possibly 2 eggs. if you have a different cage to put them in that will help too. that way they know the cage their in now is the breeding cage and anything else is a rest cage. When their resting you might let the visit Phoenix.


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## Berdnerd

I looked closer at the younger chick and he's been plucked a little, too. I think pulling them was the right choice. I mean, I have the time (it will be 50000 times less stressful than last time, for many reasons!), the equipment, and the knowledge/experience, so everything should work out. I even feel so much less worried this time! The babies COULD still get sick, but Phoenix was sick and pulled through so I'm not as worried. 

The little ones are in the brooder and the brooder is up to temperature. It's sad seeing them so scared, but they'll get used to me really fast, I know. Hopefully they pick up on how to eat from a syringe quickly too. We're going to order an Aviquarium brooder topper tonight, which I'm excited about  I e-mailed the company and they said it won't ship until Monday, but better that than never! It's also weird looking at them because they remind me so much of Teddy and Neeja, my lost babies  They're the same ages Teddy and Neeja was when I was taking care of them and they look the same, except thankfully these guys weigh twice as much!

I'm trying to think of names for them now... Susanne, any ideas?


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## srtiels

I'm bad on names...I come up with dumb ones like: Slick, Noodles, Sly, Goofy, Mommies girl, Weasel, etc.

Hey...your a pro now...so you will do great with the babies. You did an awesome job with Phoenix, and you have no idea how impressed I am on how well you grauated him down to eating on his own. Many first timers take forever to get their babies weaned. When I first started handfeeding I had one baby that took almost 5 months to wean. It was such a cry baby. When it finially weaned my daughter called him Spot, and had me take this pix


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## tielmom

birdnerd...good luck with your baby tiels.
srtiel...what an adorable picture.


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## Berdnerd

I think those names are cute! And Spot with his cockatiel tie is adorable  Phoenix may need one. Last night Phoenix ate raw spinach for the first time (he carried the leaves around everywhere!) and today he actually ate some of his thawed frozen veggies! I'm so glad. I want him to get used to eating lots of different foods. His parents are so picky.

What temperature would you recommend the little chicks' brooder be at for 10 and 12 days? This handfeeding guide says 91-93 degrees: http://www.cockatiel.org/articles/handfeeding.html

I kept his ill siblings at a higher temperature at their age, but these guys aren't sick. As usual, I'm having a hard time regulating the brooder temp with the heating pad (can't wait to get the Aviquarium topper) and it's about 88-90 degrees in there. I could make the temperature higher by taking out some of the shavings, but I'm afraid there won't be a thick enough layer beneath the babies and they could get burned from the heating pad. 

Still trying to think of names for them!


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## srtiels

Temps between 90 to 93 should be fine. What you can do is also get the temperature of what it was like inside the box. their body is used to that temp and have them close to that temp.

The tiel ties are easy to do. We used a rubber band and my daughter drew a tie on card stock paper and handcolored it. Cut it out, and glued the tie to the rubber band. She left a little tab on the top of the tie which she folded over and glued to the back of the tie.


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## roxy culver

My tiels love my hair ties and walk around with them on their necks, its so funny. So it is definitely feasible that they would wear the tie one!!! Its so cute!


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## Berdnerd

Agh! What the heck, babies? They were last fed by mom and dad at around 1:45 pm. It is now 7:30- almost 6 hours later. Both of them still have big, fat crops. On the one hand, if they're developing sour crop, it's a good thing I pulled them because I'm sure I noticed it sooner than I would have. On the other hand, I'm going to go pull my hair out because I can't believe this is happening again  I'm going to let their crops empty on their own and then handfeed them about 3 CCs each and time the emptying. Good thing is I have Keflex and those Earmaxx syringes to empty crops, but I'll need to get another prescription for Nystatin if I end up medicating the little turkeys.

Also, the thing on the older chick turns out NOT to be a bite wound. I picked it off of him because it was sticking up and there's nothing but pink healthy skin underneath! I think what happened is Poppet plucked a big pinfeather and it bled some, then the whole closed up. You can't even tell it was there now. 

I'm disinclined to return the chicks to the nestbox right now though because of the crop issues and they were being plucked, but at least poor Arthur isn't being blamed for anything anymore.


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## Jenny10

i did read in my book that stress can slow the crop, considering they have just been pulled they are likely to be a little stressed right now, also is your brooder dark? i also read that if the brooder is darker then the chicks will sleep and relax better which also improves crop mobility.


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## srtiels

I don't think you have a problem with the crop yet. it may take overnight for the parent fed food to empty out. if they are pooping they are digesting. Don't do any medicating at all yet.


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## Berdnerd

Good to know it may not be a problem. I hope not! I was going to wait a bit to medicate (I need more Nystatin anyway). The babies have only pooped twice in 6 1/2 hours. Once each. GIANT poops. They're like 8 times bigger than Phoenix poops! For some reason, these chicks seem to poop very large amounts (based on what the inside of the nest box looked like!), and neither of them have ever pooped on me or in the bowl when they're out of the nest, so I think it may be normal for these 2 at least to poop less frequently. What do you think?


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## Berdnerd

It's been 12 hours since I took them from the nest box and the babies' crops are still at least half full


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## srtiels

How do the crops feel? If full of seed they should be firm. If so you might crush a papaya tablet (1/4 of tablet) mix it with a thin formula and feed them 1cc of this and massage the crop. It could be if the crop feels solid and dense that it will take longer to digest and needs some fluids in there to help it along.


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## Berdnerd

Update time. The babies have been away from their parents for 22 hours now. The older chick still has a crop that's almost half full of food  The younger chick's crop has a lot less but isn't empty enough for me to feel comfortable feeding him. Poor little ones! The crops are NOT packed with seed, the contents are quite soft. I could see it was a mixture of seed and pellets. They've been pooping a ton.

Susanne, what should I do now? Surely they've gone past the safe amount of time to have food in their crops! I have some of those Earmaxx syringes with the soft tips that you told me to buy so if we need to empty crops, thankfully I can use those instead of the "upside down and squeeze" method. If I do use those syringes, I'm going to need more advice on how exactly to use them though (like if I need to do anything with the tip of the soft syringe to make it safer so it doesn't cut the crop- I remember you have to melt the tips of the catheters if you use that instead).


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## srtiels

Can you post some pix's of the crops so that I can see them?


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## Berdnerd

Here are the poor babies 

Older chick (you can see how much is in that crop after almost 24 hours!!!):










Younger chick (his crop thankfully is almost empty, but I don't feel comfortable feeding him until it's less empty):










Poop paper from brooder (it gets darker as it sits and dries over the heating pad- the urates are white and the newest poop has a decidedly green tinge to it. Their poop used to be red and look an awful lot like gushed up pellets. The poops are quite large and as you can see, there is a lot):


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## srtiels

The color in the poop is coming from the pellets. Boy they must've been really full.

Put them on fresh paper, and let them empty some more. When you do feed them mix a sprinkle of garlic powder in the formula every feeding.

The older one looks like it has a little air in the crop. That could be from crying and swallowing air. Give the older chick an hour or two more to digest.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah, as you can see, they pooped a LOT!!

So should I just wait until they empty naturally and then go on with the handfeeding? I was thinking 3 CCs per baby, with crushed papaya tablet, Benebac, brewer's yeast and your spice blend added. Then if you say to I can add spice blend to every feeding and just do the others once a day.

Do you think they'll be okay?


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## srtiels

Yes...I would give them time. The smaller one will be empty first, so you might start feeding it first til the other one empties.


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## Berdnerd

I think Phoenix is jealous of his little siblings getting so much attention! He was being very fussy today and not acting like his normal playful self, so I fed him after feeding the little chick. He actually opened his beak for the syringe and willingly ate 5 CCs! Wow! I guess he's not completely weaned yet. I still question his water drinking abilities (I see him dip his beak in the bowl but it doesn't really look like he's doing it right) and I hadn't hand fed him since Monday night. That was the first time in 3 weeks that he's WANTED to be fed. I'll keep on feeding him until he's ready. He's eating very well on his own and putting on weight, so I know he can eat, I think it's the water that's the issue.

I fed the younger chick because his crop finally emptied. 3 CCs of formula made with papaya tablet, Benebac, spice mix and Brewer's yeast. He did REALLY well! He actually gave me a feeding response right from the get go. I was impressed. Took like 30 seconds to feed him. For some reason I have a good feeling about his survival. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I hope not. Also he randomly has 1 yellow feather in his crest, near the back/middle of the crest. What does this mean?! 

The older chick's crop still has food in it  Poor guy.


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## srtiels

Poor jealous big Brother...LOL He'll probably come over every once in awhile to get some comfort food  If his poop looks normal then he is drinking some water. many tiels just need a sip or so and they are fine.

The yellow feather is an indication that the baby is split pied. That is good it has a feeding responce.


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## Berdnerd

That's interesting about the split to pied thing. I wonder if Poppet isn't the carrier. Arthur shows no signs of being split to pied. Remember how Kieran had speckled toes and we thought he was split to pied? So out of 6 chicks, 2 have appeared to be split to pied. Then there's Phoenix with his random yellow face and crest feathers.

Is there anything special I should do with the older chick or let him continue to empty naturally? Poor little guy, it's been almost 27 hours. I'm glad the younger chick emptied and hope he'll speed up with this feeding. 3 CCs, figure I'll check him after 2 hours. I'm sure that's being excessively optimistic.

It's funny. I didn't name them because I didn't want to get too attached to them in case they died, but now I want to name them so they don't die nameless in case they don't make it. Especially the older chick. I think we're going to call the younger chick Isidore/Izzy and change it to Isadora if it turns out to be a girl. Need something really tough for the older chick


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## srtiels

Since Poppet is a lutino she could be split to pied. Does she have a bald spot? Also is she off white or a nice yellow color? If you look at the underside of her wing flights are they off white with yellow spots or some of the wing flights solid buttery yellow. If she has wing spots she may be split to pied. If she has some solid yellow wingflights then she is a lutino pied.

As long as the older one is pooping you know it is digesting. as to the little one, the formula will pass quicker than the parent fed food.


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## Berdnerd

Poppet is light yellow and she has a bald spot. Not a giant one, but it is there. I can't remember what her flight feathers look like! I think they're solid though. I clipped her wings before the first round of babies hatched so she doesn't have long flight feathers to look at right now. The reason I'm thinking Poppet is the one who is split to pied is that Arthur shoes 0 evidence of being split to pied and I thought it would be more obvious on him if he was.

Poor older chick. Does parent fed food not go bad as fast as formula? I worry about him having the same food in there so long. Kieran had yeast in his crop when we took him to the vet and he had been only fed by his parents at that point.


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## srtiels

Ah...if she has the bald spot then she is a lutino split to pied. If she was also pied it would have thickened up her head feathers.

The parent fed food would have some additional enzymes and stuff that has sloughed off inside the crop and added to the food before they fed the baby. If you are concerned you can mix up some spice remedy with papaya and a little bit of formula and feed 1cc and mix/massage it into the crop contents.


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## Berdnerd

I think I'll just leave him alone for now. I'm concerned that adding more food to his crop right now would just make it take even longer to empty. Right now his crop looks about as full as Izzy's, so about 2.5 CCs I'm guessing.

I'm determined to think of a name for the older chick tonight since his younger sibling has one. I think Izzy/Isidore/Isadora is so cute!


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## srtiels

If the crop is going down that is good. I like Isodora, and if a male Izzy


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## Berdnerd

The older chick's crop is going down too. I think he'll be ready to be fed before I go to bed in a few hours. I'll feed him the papaya-Benebac-spice-Brewer's yeast combo that Izzy got. 

Susanne, honestly, do you think they'll make it? And why do you think they're sick? I wonder if one of the parents maybe DOES have an infection since every single chick has gotten sick. I hope at least one of these two survives. If they don't, at least we have Phoenix. It sure would be nice if one them made it though. Thankfully, dealing with the sick babies will be much less stressful this time around simply because I don't have a wedding and honeymoon to plan, a guest to entertain, and 2 out of town trips to go on. School starts September 2nd, but there's plenty of time between now and then for the little ones to get back on track.


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## srtiels

_*And why do you think they're sick?*_ 
------------------------------------
I *don't* think their sick. In regards to suggestions several years ago I automatically added garlic powder in all my babies formula for the first week. It eliminated 100% of any problems.


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## Berdnerd

Wow, that's awesome to hear about the garlic powder! I will add the spice mix to all of their feedings for the next week then and hope their crops empty faster! 

Izzy is acting less afraid of me already. It's cute. I'll be glad when they aren't afraid of me anymore, I always feel so mean when they think I'm scary.


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## Berdnerd

We named the older chick Nico. So all the babies have Greek names. I was thinking of Nico, then we watched the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" tonight and there are a bunch of people named Nick/Nico so it seemed like a good choice 

I fed the babies 1/2 an hour ago, they got formula with papaya, Benebac, brewer's yeast and spice blend. It took Izzy 10 1/2 hours to empty 3 CCs of formula. I'm glad poor Nico's crop FINALLY emptied 37 hours after being taken from the nest box! Sheesh! It was his first time being hand fed and he did great- so easy to feed. They both caught on to the syringe really fast. Their weights when empty were 45 g for Nico at 13 days and 47 g for Izzy at 11 days.

Their poop has changed. Some of the poops on the paper were dark green with bright green urine, I forgot to look at the urates. It will be interesting to see what it looks like in a few hours.


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## srtiels

OK...the dark urine is a signal that there is some dehydration. You might want to use the Home Made Ringers or Pedialyte for the water for several feedings to see if the urine color clears up.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, can you give me the recipe for the electrolyte solution again? I know you did once before but I'm not sure which of the previous 70 pages it's on.


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## Berdnerd

Never mind! I found the electrolyte solution recipe, it's on page 25.

The babies' urine is looking better. There's some green, but mostly not.

I fed Izzy again. It took him 9 1/2 hours to drain 3 CCs. Nico was not ready to be fed yet and had about 1 1/2 CCs left after 9 1/2 hours. Poor guy.


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## srtiels

Once they get hydrated more the digestion may speed up.


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## Berdnerd

Nico and Izzy started crying 25 minutes ago and have not stopped  I've checked on them and everything in the brooder is fine. Their crops aren't empty yet so it isn't time for food yet. Izzy looks like he'll be ready in about an hour. That will be 7 1/2 hours since he ate last. That's a long time to digest 3 CCs of food, but it took him 9 1/2 hours last time for the same amount, then 10 1/2 for the same amount the time before that, so it IS an improvement.

Poor Nico was fed 3 CCs at 2:30 this morning and he still has about half of it in his crop.

Oh, they finally quieted down! Amazing! Poor babies. It's so stressful when they cry because I know they're upset and hungry but there's nothing I can do about it.


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## srtiels

Poor babies...hopefully they'll be empty soon to feed them. Tiel babies can sound so pitiful...


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## Berdnerd

Nico's crop still has not completely emptied the 3 CCs I fed him at 2:30 am, 21 hours ago. I think he'll be ready to eat again in a couple of hours though. I'm only going to give him 2 CCs. Poor guy.

I just fed Izzy again. Formula made with spice mix and Benebac and electrolyte solution- 3 CCs. He took 10 1/2 hours to empty his crop from this afternoon's feeding. Same as last night. Not good by any means, but much better than Nico. Izzy has only consumed 9 CCs in the past 24 hours and Nico only 3. 

Izzy is such a cute little guy and sweet. He doesn't really hiss at me anymore. In addition to his yellow crest feather, I noticed yellow pinfeathers on the back of his head and I think he has some tiny yellow ones coming in at the front of his crest- maybe like Phoenix! Both babies are learning to chirp and can hold onto my finger with their feet.

The babies are pooping green some of the time. Both the poop and the urine part, the urates are white. The color of the poop ranges from bright green to darker green and the urine from just yellowish to light green to bright green to dark green in the case of 1 poop.


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## srtiels

Do you still have any of the Keflex and Nystatin? And also the papaya? The slow digestion movement does not sound normal. If you do you might want to start both on it.

OR...do you have another brand of handfeeding formula? You can tr another brand to see if they digest better. first feeding is 50/50 each brand. Can you get any Roudybush formula? You might be able to find it online. I keep this as a backup formula because sometimes I will have babies that have a difficult time digesting other brands.


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## Berdnerd

I don't have any other formula, just the Exact kind. I've been putting papaya in 1 feeding per day. I'll start them on the Nystatin and Keflex.

Nico is down to 38 grams when empty. Izzy is 43. So sad. Their cries sound different too, not sure why.


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## srtiels

OK...do the papaya in each feeding. What thickness are you feeding them? If you are using the Homemade Ringers you might want to thicken the formula just a little to a pancake to cake batter thickness. See you they do on this.


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## Berdnerd

Woohoo! I just fed Izzy again- it only took him 5 1/2 hours to digest the 3 CCs I gave him before! This time I fed him 3 CCs of cake batter thickness formula made with electrolyte solution, papaya tablet and spice mix. I really hope he digests as quickly again this time! 

Poor Nico is nowhere near being ready to fed even though I only gave him 2 1/2 CCs last time


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## srtiels

Thats great news  Hopefully Nico will start to do better too.


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## Jenny10

i hope your other little one picks up soon, i can highly recommend the Roudybush rearing formula that is what i feed mine with a pinch of probiotics everytime, I still do now, and i havnt have any problems.


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## Berdnerd

I will see about ordering another brand of formula.

Izzy was fed 9 hours ago and his crop isn't completely empty yet. I wonder why his crop emptied in 5 1/2 hours and then went back to 9 + hours?

Nico hasn't been fed in over 24 hours because his crop still has not emptied from the 3 CCs I fed him 25 hours ago. His crop is almost empty though so I'm going to feed him in a couple hours when it is empty. He's been getting medicine of course. It's so sad to see him. His cry is weaker than Izzy's but is actually higher pitched so it carries farther. He cries more than Izzy of course. He's been crying for about 10 minutes ago, since I last checked on them. It's so, so, so sad to see him like this. He's essentially starving to death and loses more weight every day... Saturday morning he was 38 grams, I'm sure he's several fewer today at 16 days old. Poor baby. 

I took down Arthur and Poppet's nest box tonight. They responded by mating. Of course. If they lay eggs, it will have to be on the cage floor and we aren't going to let them hatch. If you recall, my husband boiled 3 of the eggs from this clutch but I changed my mind for the last 2 eggs. All that's got us is 2 sick, hungry little babies, one of whom probably won't be around much longer. I think there must be an infection or something in one of the parents for ALL their babies to have crop issues. I don't think it's anything I did- I'm so careful and keep things so clean. After things have calmed down with the chicks, I'm going to take Arthur and Poppet to the vet to be checked out.


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## Berdnerd

I have a little bit of good news! Izzy is 39 grams this morning. I know that's terrible for a 15 day old chick, but he weighed 35 yesterday. I almost wonder if my scale is messed up or something and he doesn't really weigh that much. I hope it is correct! His urine this morning is clear too and poop fairly normal color, though the poop is very tiny. Also last night about 30 seconds after I gave him Nystatin, he started coughing and coughing and coughing. Very odd that he would breathe it in and be fine for the first 30 seconds! I really hope he doesn't get aspiration pneumonia now.

Nico is the same. Poor little guy. I'm amazed how well he's hanging in there, he seems just as vital as Izzy but I know he's suffering big time.


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## Berdnerd

Poor Nico is tanking. His eyes are looking dull and he's weaker. He's still crying though, just more listlessly. Poor little baby. I don't think he'll be with us much longer. I feel bad for making him be born.


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## srtiels

_*Also last night about 30 seconds after I gave him Nystatin, he started coughing and coughing and coughing. Very odd that he would breathe it in and be fine for the first 30 seconds! I really hope he doesn't get aspiration pneumonia now.*_
_*---------------------------------------*_

You might want to mix the Nystatin and meds in the formula. I have had babies aspirate on it because it is thicker, and tastes yuky to them so they have a difficulty swallowing it sometimes.

((((HUGS)))) My thoughts are with Nico. You might want to try to Sub-Q him and see if that helps some.


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## Berdnerd

Mixing the meds with the formula sounds like a good idea, but the problem is I make significantly more formula each time than the babies actually eat (too hard to make 3 CCs of formula and keep the temperature stable!) so it would be difficult to give him the right amount of medication.

I don't know if I'm going to do sub q on Nico. He's only been able to digest 2 CCs of formula per day for the past 5 days. He's starving to death. His siblings HATED sub q fluids and I feel like it would be prolonging his suffering to give him fluids.


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## srtiels

_*(too hard to make 3 CCs of formula and keep the temperature stable!)*_
*--------------------------------------*

It is not too hard. You know how much you are going to feed them. You draw that amount of water up into a syringe and squirt into a small glass that is set in a pan of warm water. Mix the formula and add meds, etc. You will have very little waste doing it this way.


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## Berdnerd

I will try that, Susanne. Good method!

Nico is looking a little better this evening. His eyes don't look dull. He's still weaker than he was yesterday but better than this morning. He hasn't lost the will to live yet. I think I will try giving him fluids tonight since he's still fighting. These baby birds amaze me- they're so tiny and delicate, but have such a will to live!


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## srtiels

Tell Nico that Gramdma Susanne said to be a good baby and pull thru and get better


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## roxy culver

Praying he makes it through!!!


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## claire2010a

Good thoughts being sent little Nico's way and ((hugs)) to you.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the encouragement, guys! Nico and I have had several chats about how he needs to get better and grow up to be a strong, healthy birdy. I hope he listens. His crop actually emptied faster than usual yesterday, but I don't think emptying 2 1/2 CCs in 18 hours is really that impressive. Compared to 24 hours it is an improvement though. His weight for today is only 31 grams at 18 days old  He's still acting lively though he's weaker than Izzy. I can feel the difference in their weights when I hold them. Also Nico closes his eyes when he eats, like he's enjoying every drop of it. It's sweet.

Izzy's weight for today is 37 grams. Down 2 from yesterday morning, but an overall gain of 2 grams from what his weight had dropped to over the weekend. I can tell his poop is looking better, the urine has a slight green tinge but some of Nico's poop has like hunter green colored urine so he is doing comparatively well. When they're in the brooder, I can't tell whose poop is whose. I haven't separated them because they like to snuggle. I think this afternoon I'm going to separate them in the brooder for just a few hours so I can get a better idea of who is pooping what, then I'll let them be together again.

I think Phoenix is becoming a teenager at only 8 weeks old! Is that possible? He has such a little attitude! He likes spending time with us for sure, but he's SO good at telling us when he doesn't like something. This morning I went to pet him in his cage and he was attacking my fingers and yelling at me. This may be bad, but I laughed at him. It's hard not to laugh when he's like that. He doesn't actually bite of course. Love my fiery boy! He will always keep our lives interesting, I think


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## srtiels

_* he was attacking my fingers and yelling at me. This may be bad, but I laughed at him. It's hard not to laugh when he's like that. He doesn't actually bite of course. Love my fiery boy! He will always keep our lives interesting, I think *_
*-------------------------------*

Hmmmm...it sounds like possibly your little boy might be a little girL  We'll have to wait and see.


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## Berdnerd

Is that a girl thing, Susanne?! Being bratty? My husband and I are pretty sure he's a boy because he chirps and vocalizes a LOT.


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## srtiels

Your description sound like some of the actions that some of my little girls did as babies. Does he also flare his tail and spread his wings or hiss and rock at you when you reach in, shaking his head back and forth?


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## Renae

srtiels said:


> Your description sound like some of the actions that some of my little girls did as babies. Does he also flare his tail and spread his wings or hiss and rock at you when you reach in, shaking his head back and forth?


Theo done this when she was a baby! it made me laugh every time.. I would peek into the brooder to check on her and she would hiss and lunge at me. :lol:


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## Berdnerd

Phoenix doesn't raise his wings or flare his tail or anything. He makes deeply offended sounds and lowers his crest and gets kinda low to the ground while kinda sorta lunging. It's cute because he's trying to be fierce but failing miserably! He's so funny.

The little ones are still hanging in there. Nico cries more than Izzy. I fed them 5 1/2 hours ago and Izzy looks like he'll be ready to eat again in about 2 hours. Overall, I would say Izzy is doing better than he was a few days ago. He has regained a little of the weight he lost and his crop is emptying a little faster. He is 37 grams (empty crop) at 16 days old. Susanne, do you think he'll survive?

Nico is 31 grams at 18 days and is tiny and skinny. He only digests about 3 CCs in 24 hours but is still kicking after being sick for a whole week now. His digestion has improved a tiny bit over what it was at first. Do you think there's a chance he could still survive? He has a fighting spirit and I'm not going to give up on him. Oh and today I saw that he has a little spot of yellow on one of his chest feathers, like he got some yellow dust on him or like a very faint pearl marking. It's cute.

I want both my babies to live. Phoenix wants playmates too!


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## srtiels

I almost wish I would have encouraged you to leave them in the nest with the parents. Screw the plucking, the feathers would have grown back. It was very rare...1 or 2 in 1,000 babies when I used to handfeed just failed to thrive being handfed...yet if left with the parents they did fine. I could never figure out the cause of why this was. And with those babies they did digest some but just could not put on weight and slowly melted away. I sincerely hope your little ones turn around...like Phoenix did under your wonderful care.


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## Jenny10

i hope they are doing better soon, big hugs


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the encouragement, Jenny. I hope no one thinks I'm taking bad care of the babies and that's why they get sick  I promise I'm very attentive and keep things very clean for them. I love the babies. 

Susanne, I'm pretty certain they were already getting sick when I pulled them- Nico did not gain any weight at all since the day before. I would have actually put them back in the nest box if not for that and the fact that right from the beginning after I pulled them their crops were very slow.

Tonight I'm ordering some Roudybush formula for them. Hopefully it will arrive quickly and maybe make a difference.

Here are some pictures of the babies.

Izzy, 16 days, 37 grams:










Nico, 18 days, 31 grams (love his crazy hairdo):



















together (they're very wiggly!):









Phoenix:



















And here is a poop that Izzy pooped while I was making his formula. I think it looks pretty good- the urine is pretty clear, the urates are white, and the poop part is kind of greenish but not too bad. The flash on the camera was on which is why there's kind of a glare in the urine! And the white lines on the poop are feather sheaths.










So how do the babies and poop look?


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## Berdnerd

Nico is doing poorly  Little guy only weighs 29 grams and that's with a little bit of food in his crop. I gave him sub q fluids again because he's getting weaker but still seems to want to live. I cried and cried over him this morning. He's such a sweet baby and I've become very attached to him.

I'm still hopeful Izzy could survive. He's been 37 grams for 3 days now and seems very robust. His poop looks fairly normal to me, it's kind of olive green but the urates are white and the urine is almost clear. He has gained a couple of the grams that he lost, but not in the past couple days. I clipped his toe nails today because they're so darned sharp, they're like little needles when he sits on my finger. I'm concerned about him scratching Nico and I cut my finger last night and he kept getting his toe nail in the cut.

Here is a picture of Izzy from a few minutes ago before I fed him, it was his first time perching on the edge of the bucket. I put the babies in the bucket while I prepare their formula and medicine because they can't get out yet! I put him on the edge and he did a good job of holding on.


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## tielmom

They are so cute...I really hope they will be okay...keep up the good work. Keep us updated okay??? We are very concerned about your baby tiels too


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## Berdnerd

Tielmom, thanks for the encouragement!!

Susanne, I have a question for you. I gave Phoenix a new sprig of millet about an hour ago, just got him out of his cage, and his crop is packed with millet and quite firm. He ate a LOT! Do I need to worry about this? I figure I'll keep an eye on it and hopefully it will empty fine without my help, but you know me. I'm a worrier.


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## Berdnerd

Oh gosh, I just checked on Phoenix and his crop is MORE full! It's crammed with millet! Silly me thought he wouldn't eat anymore so I left the millet in his cage. Millet AND food have been removed now. I can't believe he ate so much! I hope he doesn't get a crop impaction, it's so solid. Going to go look up signs and symptoms of an impacted crop.


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## Jenny10

i really wouldnt be worrying about pheonix now he is practically a adult, and should be coping with food now without any trouble, I think you might be a bit to quick with the medications through panicking, if Pheonix is drinking and eating fine i wouldnt be worrying, he probably could do with gaining some weight. 

has your Roudybush arrived yet?


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## Berdnerd

I wasn't planning to give him any medications... And not panicking, just concerned  I know Susanne checks this thread so I thought I'd ask her opinion. I've never seen his crop this full before.

Nope, Roudybush hasn't arrived yet! I hope it does soon!


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## srtiels

LOL...Phoenixs crop is normal  He is doing what comes natural and packing his crop for the night to digest while he is sleeping.


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## Berdnerd

Ha, it must've taken him a while to figure out what normal birds do because he's never packed his crop like this! Hopefully now he'll start gaining more weight. He's gained 4 grams so far this week 

Susanne, what do you think of the pictures of the babies (particularly Izzy) and the picture of Izzy's poop? 

The babes are crying right now. I peeked in the brooder to see if they're ready to eat and they have about another hour it looks like. I try not to peek in there unnecessarily because they'll cry for 20 minutes or longer sometimes! Nico does most of the crying, poor guy- his cry sounds different from Izzy's, I can tell all the way from the living room who is crying.


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## Berdnerd

Nico is fading away in my hands


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## tielmom

I am so sorry Berdnerd about Nico...I was hoping and praying that he would make it.
I was getting on here to check up on him and Izzie...please keep us posted.
If he has to go, I hope he goes peacefully. He is very fortunate to have been born into your family...It sounds like you have given him the best...even if his life is short.
I really hope that Izzie continues to thrive and pull through.


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## tielmom

sorry I misspelled...I meant *Izzy


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the support, Tielmom!

Nico is actually still hanging in there! He got a new burst of energy or something. Early this morning he was so weak, he was just making a trilling sound instead of crying and he kept falling over on his side. It was so sad. Then I held him cuddled against my chest to keep warm for about 20 minutes and had a chat with him about how much I love him and apologizing for not saving him and that kind of thing. Then he started being able to stand up better and was acting more normal, so I put him back in the brooder. He's not doing great this afternoon, but he ate again (his crop actually emptied faster than it ever has before). I don't think he's going to make it but he's such a little fighter.

Izzy has lost another gram and is 35 grams. I really need him to gain weight! Come on, Izzy, you can do it! I think he needs a bunch of cheerleaders. Early this morning when I fed them (when Nico was looking so bad), Izzy succeeded in pulling himself up onto the edge of the bucket like in the picture. I was impressed! The bucket is about 7 inches tall so he really had to stretch to grab the edge with his beak and pull himself up. I think he figured out from when I set him on the edge before that he could sit up there.

As for Phoenix, his crop DID empty of all that seed. I wonder if he will do that every night now and gain a bunch of weight!


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## srtiels

(((HUGS))) the first thought that comes to mind is to increase the heat on both of them to about 95 degrees. This way they will not have to use any extra body reserves for heat and can use reserves for digestion.

Yes...Phoenix will pack his crop every night  if you feel the parent birds they will also be doing this, though not as much as Phoenix.

Oh...an as mentioned in the PM...get a box (from the grocery store) of Boxed baby cereal...RICE. Mix 50/50 with the formula you have now, until your other formula comes in. The Rice is soothing on the GI tract, and helps with hydration. And the iron helps as a stimulant to the muscles of the GI tact to contract and move the food better in the digestive tract.

There is a couple of Herbal extracts I have used used on crital babies. Gentian and Capsicum (cayenne) The gentian is a bitter herb and stimulates digestion and absorption. The capsicum is a warming herb, and also has some antibiotic proprties. Both work tandem together. 1 drop of each would be added to each feeding.


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## tielmom

I hope he continues to fight and I will be his cheerleader...Let's go Nico, Let's go!!!
You can do it, You can do it!!! My heart goes out to him and Izzy, I am really praying for a miracle. Please keep us posted...and you get enough rest to keep up YOUR strength too.
Looking forward to update tomorrow. Have a good night.


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## Jenny10

I do hope your little one can hang in untill you can sort their feeding out, its so sad that what appeared to be a healthy chick in the beginning is just fading away, ((big hugs))


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Jenny. I hope so too! Susanne, I've mixed their formula with the rice cereal the past 2 feedings. Should I mix ALL their formula like this until the Roudybush arrives? How many days of it is safe if it takes a while for the formula to get here? I'll look into getting those supplements later today, I'm willing to try anything. The temperature in the brooder is in the 90s, it's kind of hard to control perfectly with a heating pad unfortunately. 

As of his last feeding, Izzy is back up to 36 grams. I'm hoping he'll be 37 at his next feeding. It worries me greatly that he's lost a couple of grams and his poop is looking a bit worse, I'm hoping it will improve. Little Nico is still doing poorly but hasn't lost anymore weight (not that he has any left to lose!) and is still fairly feisty. He's so brave.

I have a Shutterfly account for photos and I got an offer for a free 8 by 8 inch hardcover 20 page photo book today. I'm not feeling well today and stayed on the couch for the most part, so I spent about 5 hours gathering, editing, arranging, and writing what turned into a 40 page photo book telling the story of Kieran, Teddy, Neeja and Phoenix. I ended it when Phoenix was 3 weeks old. I'm glad I took so many pictures of them, I didn't even use all the photos I took but have about 150 in the book. It was really nice to look through their sweet pictures. Good time to reflect, even though it ended so sadly for 3 of my babies  I can't wait to see how the book turns out. I only had to pay $15 for the extra pages, it would have been $40 otherwise.


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## srtiels

They should be fine on the 50/50 mix until the Roudybush comes in. For the first day of the Roudybush you can mix the Roudybush and add a sprinkle of the ceral in for a couple of feedings and then straight Roudybush.

The Photo book sounds great...and what a beautiful tribute to the sweeties


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the info, Susanne! I will do that.

It occurred to me that Shutterfly has a "share" function so I'm going to see if it will work to share the photo book in case anyone would like to see it! I can't wait for it to arrive, I hope it looks nice.

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0AbsWTZi0aMmbio


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## srtiels

WOW!...your photobook looks GREAT!


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## Berdnerd

Thanks Susanne!

Also Tielmom, I forgot to say, thank you for posting in my thread and most of all, thank you for being a cheerleader for Izzy and Nico!


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## tielmom

Your welcome...I looked at your photo book and it is wonderful...what a tribute to your babies...I am so happy to hear that Phoenix made it through. He had quite a battle, it sounds like. It is so n ice to be able to put a face to your other three tiels names. They were all so adorable. Keep us posted girl and keep up the wonderful job you are doing and your strength.


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## roxy culver

We're praying for the babies over here....hopefully they pull through just like Phoenix did. Your babies are made of some strong stuff that's for sure!!!


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Tielmom and Roxy! The little ones are still hanging in there.

This afternoon I had to call that vet who was so rude to me when the first batch of babies was sick. I need more Keflex and Nystatin. Thankfully she's calling in a prescription for both to the pharmacy so I can go pick it up and she didn't make me bring the babies in to the office. I'm glad I'll have more medicine, one less thing to worry about!


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## Berdnerd

I've been raising the babies for the past 9 days. They've been on medication for 6 1/2 day of those days. They lost a lot of weight at first but have more or less been maintaining their weights at 28 grams (Nico who is 21 days old today) and 36 grams (Izzy who is 19 days old) and they don't seem to have really improved or gotten worse the past couple of days. Susanne, if they stay the same long enough, will they eventually get better? Izzy is showing no signs of dying anytime soon (thankfully). Am I going to end up with a 5 week old chick who only weighs 36 grams or what? Doesn't something have to change?

Here are pictures of Izzy's wing span and him eating his dinner a few minutes ago.



















How does he look?


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## roxy culver

I don't know about the weight thing but he is gorgeous!! Does he have orange cheek patches?


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## Berdnerd

Yep, Roxy, he has little orange cheeks  The feathers are starting to come out of their sheaths on his cheeks a bit. In a few days they will be out for sure! He also has some yellow pinfeathers on the back of his head and a yellow crest feather. He's split to pied. I think he's very, very cute!


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## srtiels

I can't really answer...because looking at the pix they look bigger than the weights they are. He is a pretty baby. They have to start gaining weight soon.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the reply, Susanne. I guess we'll know here eventually what's going to happen. I know I've said it 5,000 times already, but I really hope Izzy makes it. I really hope Nico does too of course but that seems less likely. I would be thrilled beyond belief if they both pulled through. I made the mistake of looking at the Watch Me Grow page. The chick at 19 days is 109 grams- 3 times what Izzy weighs. Very depressing. The feather development looks about the same though and you can see from Izzy's tail feathers that they don't have the stunted V thing. His tail feathers were slightly splayed in that picture I posted an hour or so ago. Nico's tail feathers actually look good too. Susanne, I remember when the last batch of babies were sick you said that they'd start gaining weight once their feathers were all in. I really hope that happens with these guys!!

Come on, babies! Gain weight!


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## srtiels

That is what puzzles me...how well they feathered out, yet the slow weight gain, and they don't show the classic stunted look. They are proportinate...yet are like midgets.


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## tielmom

Look at Izzy...wow that wing span is so beautiful
how is my buddy Nico doing?


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, that's exactly it- they're like skinny little midgets. Nico is practically weightless. I weighed him a couple hours ago and he's down to 26 grams and his crop wasn't even completely empty, it's so sad. 

I'm about to go feed them. The times I've checked on them tonight Nico has been sitting with his wings slumped forward. I thought maybe he was hot, but Izzy seems fine and it's more like he's too tired to hold his wings up instead of holding them away from his body. I've been giving him a kiss every time I put him back in the brooder because I don't know how long he'll be with me. I'm going to go take a couple more pictures of him before feeding them.


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## srtiels

I had thought...*maybe...*by some strange coincidence the pair was related, but in going by the gentics Arthur would be split to lutino if they were, and all your getting is grey babies...so thats not it.

I am helpless to know why they are having the problems and strange slow growth. And with the problems they should have had severe stress marks and hunger bars on the feathering and they don't.

_*Nico has been sitting with his wings slumped forward.*_ 
--------------------------------
On his nest feeding add a drop of honey or Karo syrup to the formula and see if thet gives him some energy. I was just reading that with slow digestion some babies can become hypoglycemic.


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## Berdnerd

Aw I read the suggestion about the honey too late. I just fed them. Nico is doing so poorly- I know I said I thought he was going to pass away a couple nights ago, but I think this is really it. He's too weak to cry now. Poor baby can hardly stand up and is falling over. He keeps closing his eyes. I was afraid he would aspirate the formula because he hardly had a feeding response, but he didn't. It seems like he's SO TIRED. He's fought so long, over 1/3 of his life. I got some pictures of him before the feeding and will share them in a few hours, they're so sad. I know he was just seeking warmth, but he kept stumbling over my hand to cuddle it when I was getting pictures of him and when I held him on my chest, he had the strength to climb up my chest so he was under my chin. He's such a sweet little baby and I've grown so attached to him and cried so much for him. 

I keep hoping Izzy may survive since Phoenix survived, but Phoenix got sick when he was a week older than Izzy and he began to show improvement within less than 1 week. It took him about 3 weeks to be back to normal, but I was pretty sure he'd survive when he started gaining weight 5 days after he got sick. Izzy was only 10 days old when he got sick and he's been sick for 10 days now with no sign of improvement. At least he isn't really getting WORSE. 

It would be pretty unlikely for Arthur and Poppet to be related- Arthur came from a small bird store in Virginia, they bred all the birds there and hand raised them. He's 11 years old now. Poppet came from Petco here in Fairbanks, but I know she was flown in from some big bird breeder in California. It would be very unlikely for them to be related.

These little babies are such a mystery!


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## srtiels

(((HUGS)))) My thoughts and prayers are with little Nico. Since he is responding to holding and heat you might want to fill a small jar with warm water, and have him lean against it. have a second jar so that you can change out jars as the other cools off. Maybe the additional heat will give him some energy. And mix a couple drops of honey in warm water and see if he will take a taste or two.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I will give him a little bit of honey water now. Poor baby. In the brooder I have a jar of hot water and a heating pad under the brooder and a heating pad against the side (with 2 thicknesses of towels between the pad and the side of the brooder). The temperature in there is 95 degrees.

I'm so tempted to take Nico out of the brooder and cuddle him some more and talk to him, but I'm afraid that's selfish of me and he's really happier in the brooder with Izzy. I want what's best for him.

I haven't gone to sleep yet but I'm afraid if I do, I'll wake up and find Nico dead.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I wonder if the babies have some sort of genetic problem that all of them inherited except Phoenix? It does seem so odd that everyone got sick at 9-11 days old except Phoenix, who made it to 17 days before getting sick and then wasn't as ill as his siblings.


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## srtiels

OK...if he responds well to your body heat he may need just alittle more heat. A tiels average body temp is 104-105 degrees.

(((HUGS)))


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## srtiels

I was wondering that too. I don't beleive it is a disease problem, and if the parents are not related, then another thought is their immune system. Initially this is inherited from the mother, and early gained immunities are from the yolk of the egg. 

Have you ever paired Arthur with another hen? If so how were the babies? I could be possible that though Poppet appears nornmal she may have inherited a poor immunity and is passing this along in the yolk to the developing chicks. I have to look up exact wording for how this inherited immunity to chicks works, but I do know it is supposed to protect them for the first 2 weeks of life, and as they work towards weaning the immunity streghtens.


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## Berdnerd

I put in another big jar of warm water for him to snuggle against. He's so sad.


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## srtiels

Ok...I am trying to find some info on inherited imunity from the mother,and while looking I read that the bone marrow is one of the priciple organs/parts that form the immune system. I noticed that the beaks looked a little pale colored. If you still have some Brewers Yeast you might add that with the formula...because it is a source of the Vitmin B nutrients.

Somhow I am being more suspect of an inherited weak immune system from Poppet. If the mother had inherited a weak immunity, then this is passed along to her chicks. The term for this inheritance is: maternally derived antibodies. If they have not inherited this then the chicks are more suseptable to non-pathogenic and stunting.


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## Berdnerd

I have been adding brewer's yeast to the formula once a day. Do you think I should add it to every feeding? They've been getting spice mix in every feeding.

It's so odd. Arthur and Poppet themselves have almost always been healthy. Arthur has never been sick in 11 years except for a time last year when both birds started getting diarrhea. We went to the vet twice and they were on medicine but it wouldn't go away! Then I bought them a new bag of food and it cleared up in a day or so, so of course I assume it's from the food.

Poppet does have that other thing- remember how she's been plucking the back of Arthur's head some (not a ton, he doesn't have a bald spot or anything) and her own legs and some of her chest? You can't really tell by looking at her that she's doing it except for the legs, the spot on her chest is covered by other feathers. And she plucked the chicks some too. Maybe whatever is making her pluck is making the babies sick. I plan to take her to the vet here soon to get checked out. I really don't trust the supposed bird vet here in town and I'd rather take her to my regular vet (who is a bird AND bunny AND rat vet, how lucky can you get?) but she has been out of town for months.


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## srtiels

OK...since you are doing the Brewers yeast...once a day is fine. 

Poppet herself can be visually healthy, but how a hen passes along an impaired immunity to chicks is from how she was bred. In being a lutino, many breeders will pair lutinos together for a few generations and that could have weakened the 'passive immunity' that is passed in the yolk to the chicks. If it was a lethal gene you would've had a high incidence of DIS (dead in shell) or healthy babies just dropping dead by 10 days of age.


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## Berdnerd

Baby Nico died this afternoon  I checked on the babies in the brooder and he was lying there. Izzy has been quieter since Nico died, I think he's lonely. I put a stuffed bunny in there with him. Do you think he knew that Nico was dead?

My poor little Nico. He tried so hard to live. I feel so bad for him, he did nothing wrong but suffered so much.

I wonder if the immunity thing is what made my babies sick. I wonder if Izzy has a chance and if Phoenix will be a healthy birdy.


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## roxy culver

Fly high little Nico, he fought so hard...go Izzy go!!!


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## Berdnerd

It's so sad looking in the brooder and only seeing 1 baby. I think Izzy misses Nico too  I got so attached to him. I snipped off a couple of his feathers to keep forever. I believe that animals go to heaven and it's very comforting to think of Nico flying around in heaven even though he never got big enough to fly on Earth.


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## Jenny10

so sorry to hear little Nico has gone, Big Hugs


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## srtiels

Fly free little Nico.

OK...if it is an inherited immunity problem...I beleive the ones that survive had a strong enough immune system to fight, and by 8-10 weeks it should be alot stronger. But...what you want is a male...because males do not pass this along...whereas females will pass along an impaired immunity. So if any babies turn out to be females always take care that they are exclusively pets.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, today we actually sent off some feathers from Izzy and Phoenix so they can be DNA sexed. I got some from Nico too but didn't send them off because it costs $25 and I didn't really see the point, especially since we were already spending $50 on DNA testing. If it IS an inherited immunity problem and is sex linked, it might be interesting to find out what sex Nico was too. Do you think it would be worth it, or would his sex not really matter? Do girl birds suffer from inherited immunity problems more? If so, maybe Kieran, Teddy, Neeja and Nico were girls and Phoenix and Izzy are boys.


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## srtiels

No...females, aside from the inherited immunity, which affects them for the first week or two, once weaned should be fine, and live normal healthy lives. This is only passed when breeding, and in the quality of the yolk.

If Poppet can be handled and be a pet you might consider retiring her from breeding. Another hen, with some known background paired with Auther should produce strong healthy babies.

I only encountered this once years ago, and am only going by what my vet thought the problem was.


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## Berdnerd

Poppet has been with Arthur the whole time we've had her, from the very first day. We were very bad and did not quarantine her. Our apartment is small and trying to keep a separate air space was a joke, and we didn't have any friends who would want a cockatiel for a month or two. Plus Arthur was grieving his friend Luca who had died and he was getting depressed. Arthur's approach to grieving is to scream constantly as loud as he can and the poor guy had already been doing that for almost a month- it took THAT LONG to find another cockatiel in this town! So we brought Poppet home (and had purchased a new cage for her), introduced her to Arthur, they hit it off immediately, and Poppet stayed with him in his cage from the very first day. They bonded very fast and the screaming from Arthur stopped instantaneously. Poppet was parent raised rather than hand raised (Petco here only sells parent raised, completely untamed tiels for $200 each!), but had injured her foot so had been handled regularly for medication and is actually quite sweet all things considered. She's shy of us, but has never bitten and doesn't mind hanging out with us in spite of her nervousness. I think she could actually do pretty well as a single bird rather than a companion for Arthur. If we separate Arthur and Poppet, Arthur will need a new friend for sure and I would make sure it was a boy so we don't have to worry about babies. I do want to try my hand at breeding in a couple years but would use a pair from good, healthy stock.

Sorry this is so long!

One last thing- Susanne, what in the world do you think is going to happen with Izzy? Today he is 3 weeks old. He only weighs 36 grams and he goes 9 hours between his 3 CC feedings (it takes that long for his crop to empty completely). 6 days ago Izzy weighed 38 grams, so he's only gone down 2 grams. His poop actually looks pretty darn normal to me- not perfect, but the urine is essentially clear, the urates are white, and the poop part is kind of olive/army tank green. I figure Izzy is either going to start wearing down or he's going to start gaining weight because he can't go on much longer like this, can he?

I'm also wondering what to do about the medicine. He's only supposed to be on Nystatin and Keflex for 10 days and he's only got 2 1/2 days left! Do I just cut him off and hope for the best when we get to 10? So many unknowns.


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## srtiels

OK...Hopefully the Roudybush formula should come in soon. Once you have it just use it with no additives and see how Izzy does. If doing well digestion and weight gain should improve within 24 hrs.

If Poppet can be a pet, and not bred again that would be good. Or another male as a companion for Aurther would be great. If any of the babies turn out to be females they can also live with Poppet.


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## Berdnerd

I really hope the formula gets here soon! That would be great. I just fed Izzy and he's down a gram to 35 grams. He kind of waffles between 35 and 36 sometimes.

Susanne, do you think I should separate Arthur and Poppet right away or let them stay together and just not let them have babies by replacing any eggs with fake eggs and of course not giving them a nest box? I've been discouraging them by only giving them as much food as they'll eat and giving them a lot of night time. It is working so far. They mated once about a week ago but we haven't heard them since I took away the nest box and started doing these things. If possible, I'd just as soon leave them together for the time being since they're bonded.

If we do separate them, I'm going to try to find a male buddy for Arthur. I actually found someone on Craigslist a couple of weeks ago who is looking to rehome her male, I told her I may be interested in a month or so and explained the situation. Her boy is only like 2 years old and is a normal grey like Arthur but isn't very tame. There aren't a lot of choices for tiels up here! And if we separate them, I'm going to see how Poppet does as a single bird. I think she has the potential to be pretty lovey, she's just a sweet girl even though she's shy. I think she may be more outgoing without another bird around. If she acts unhappy, well, we'll just find her a female friend then!

I don't want to pair Phoenix or Izzy (if he survives) with each other or their same sex parent because I want them to be single birds. I have the potential here to end up with a lot of cockatiels though!


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## srtiels

Ok...If you let them be together, they may still occassionally mate...but just don't give them a nestbox, and if she lays just give the fake eggs. You can also work with Poppet to encourage her to be more of a pet. She might like that and it might slow her down on wanting to nest. Just take care, when she is out of the cage that she doesn't get tempted to explore dark places she can hide in which could stimulate egg laying.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah, they mated all the time for over a year and a half before she ever laid eggs! I was so surprised when she laid eggs the first time on the cage floor.

Okay I have kind of a funny question of sorts. You know the stripe of white feathers on normal grey tiels' wings? Nico's feathers were light yellow instead of white. It's hard to tell in pictures though. Why were his yellow? They weren't dirty or anything.


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## tielmom

(((hugs))) I am very sorry Nico passed
He really was a fighter...fly baby bird, no more suffering.
How is Izzy doing, I am sure he is missing Nico, I hope he gets stronger and puts on some needed weight.


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## roxy culver

Guard against couch corners or behind fridges, that's where Cinnamon was hunting around before I gave her a box!


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## srtiels

_*? Nico's feathers were light yellow instead of white. It's hard to tell in pictures though. Why were his yellow? They weren't dirty or anything.*_
_*-----------------------------------*_
If a baby has a very high content of yellow...I think it is the lipochrome pigment responcible for the yellow and orange on tiels...this could tinge the white wing bar with a yellow wash. As they age this dissappears.


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## Berdnerd

Interesting, Susanne. He also had a yellow dot on a bunch of his chest feathers. Is this a sign of being split to pied?


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## srtiels

No...the yellow dots on the chest are what several of us have referred to the 'Spot Gene' You can do a search (search menu is at the top of the forum in the blue menu bar across the top) on the site for Spot Gene


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## Berdnerd

Oh, gosh. I'm suffering from some major mommy guilt!! I went to bed really late and had the alarm set to feed Izzy at 9:30. Alarm went off, I remember thinking "Okay here I am getting up!" and then I woke up at 11:45  I'm so sorry, Izzy! I'm a little annoyed at my husband too because he got up at the same time and knew I had to feed Izzy. He didn't leave for work until 11 but didn't wake me up again at any point. Poor little Iz  Of course when I weighed him, he was 34 grams- down 1 from his last feeding and the lowest he's been. Ugh, guilt! It was 10 1/2 hours from his last feeding 

Now for the bit of good news... He had pretty steadily been emptying his crop at 9- 9 1/2 hours after being fed 3 CCs. But for his last 2 feedings before this one (I don't know how long he took to empty since I was being a bad mom and was asleep!), it only took 7- 7 1/2 hours for him to empty. Very exciting for me! All I did different was left out the spice mix. I'd put it in every single feeding so far and decided to try it without, so he hasn't had spice mix in about 24 hours. As soon as I stopped using it, his crop function increased. That could be a coincidence, I don't know. These babies are so weird that it doesn't really surprise me that something that works for other babies doesn't work for them. Maybe he just went too long being on it- it's been like 12 days of him getting spice mix every feeding.

Susanne, assuming that his crop empty time stays at about 7 hours for 3 CCs where it was 9- 9 1/2 before, how soon can I expect him to start gaining weight? I'm very anxious for him to start gaining of course.


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## srtiels

OK...try to eliminate the supplements and see how this goes. He might do better on just plain normal thickness formula.


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## Berdnerd

Oh my gosh! It's only been 5 1/2 hours since I fed Izzy and his crop is empty again! I really really REALLYYYYY hope this means he will be on the road to recovery soon and start gaining weight! 

Come on Izzy!


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## srtiels

YAY!!! Come on IZZY!


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## tielmom

Come on Izzy...you can do it =)


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## Berdnerd

I so hope he continues like this! I just got him fed and weighed him first, he's back up to 35 since he was 34 at his last feeding. I hope he gains lots of weight! 

We're closing on day 9 of him being medicated. Should tomorrow really be his last day or should I keep going?


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## roxy culver

Go Izzy Go!!! Fingers crossed!!!


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## Berdnerd

Izzy's crop emptied in about 5 1/2 hours again!! Time to start gaining weight, little dude! I think he's actually grown in the past few days even though he doesn't weigh more, he can climb onto the edge of the purple bucket in about 3 seconds now while it used to take him a lot longer or he couldn't do it. Maybe he's growing or maybe the additional calories are giving him more energy so he can climb up easier.

Come on, Izzy! Grow! Phoenix wants someone to play with


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## srtiels

When it is time to quit the meds...stop. Go..Izzy


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## Berdnerd

Well, his crop is a bit slower than it was the past couple times- I fed him 6 hours ago and he still has some in his crop. Not a lot, but enough that we need to wait longer. 

Susanne, I'm still doing the formula-rice cereal thing. Should I just go to all formula until the Roudybush arrives or stick with the rice mix? He's been getting 50/50 rice cereal and formula for a couple of days now.


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## srtiels

OK...go with straight formula, and see how he does. As you mentioned above the extra calories may help, and the additives may be reducing the calories.


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## Berdnerd

I don't understand  His crop was doing so much better for about a day and a half, and then suddenly with this last feeding, it took 10 HOURS! After 10 hours, his crop was not 100% empty but I fed him 2 CCs anyway. His standard had been 9- 9 1/2 hours to empty his crop, so that's even longer!

Why?  I was getting all excited and thought I'd get to keep my Izzy but now I'm not so sure. He weighs 35 grams with the little bit in his crop.


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## srtiels

Crap...I know you that to do this, but I would suggest emptying the crop. Think back to what you were using when it emptied the best and try that again. Several of the additives may have cut nutrient content, but one obviously was helping...so need to figure out which one, and offer it back at 1/2 stength at first.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, didn't see your reply- I had stayed up until 10 am waiting to feed him and finally just fed him and went to sleep. Just woke up. How I hate sleeping during the day and being awake all night! That's going to have to change too because school starts back up on Thursday.

Anyway, when I fed him 6 hours ago, I fed him 2 CCs of regular formula. Nothing added (except Benebac) and no rice cereal. His crop is empty now so I'm going to feed him straight formula again. Maybe the longer emptying time was something to do with the rice cereal, he's been getting it for a while now and maybe it didn't have enough nutrients or something? We actually had to buy another package of Kaytee Exact formula yesterday because the Roudybush isn't here yet!

Looks like we'll still just be taking it 1 day at a time. Thankfully even though school starts Thursday, I won't have a long day where I will be gone for 8 or 9 hours until Monday, September 13th so that's a lot of time for Izzy to start getting better before we need to worry about me being gone for long periods. The other days I have classes I'll only be gone for 4-5 hours or less.


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## tielmom

Come on Izzy...keep strong...keep up the fight and do not give up.
I am keeping my fingers crossed...I pray things start getting better for him soon.


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## Jenny10

if you had a tracking number i would be trying to find out where my other Formula was?

i hope little Izzy holds in there, be strong little guy.


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## Berdnerd

I'm going to call the store tomorrow. I just checked the e-mail they sent me when I placed the order and it says they'd send another e-mail when the package ships. I haven't received any e-mail saying it shipped! Argh! I had to pay for expedited shipping, too. 

When I ordered the Earmaxx syringes for emptying crops, I paid like $20 for overnight shipping and didn't receive them for 3 weeks. From the package I could see they were mailed regular speed and only 3 or 4 days before I received them. So darned annoying!


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## Berdnerd

Tonight Izzy took 7 1/2 hours to empty his crop. His weight tonight was 36 grams. His poop looks good- he actually pooped a really big one, I was impressed. I never really thought I'd be impressed by poop before! Also I think he's a boy. I took a peek under his wings and there aren't any dots on his feathers closest to his body, but they haven't grown in completely so who knows. I mailed the DNA sex thing on Saturday though so we'll know for sure soon!

I'm a bit worried about Mr Phoenix. The past couple of days he's been really fussy and begging to be fed a lot. This from the bird who completely rejected formula from the very day that he figured out how to eat millet! Yesterday he was even begging even though his crop was full of millet. His weight is fine too. He really gets going with the crying when he hears Izzy and when Izzy gets fed. Today I handfed Phoenix twice because he was begging and he ate a full 7 CCs each time. If he were a human child I would think he was jealous of his little brother!


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## tielmom

It sure does sound like jelousy to me


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## roxy culver

I think its jealousy combined with normal baby bird acts. My 10 week old tiel still cries even though she is weaned. All I have to do is put her back in the cage and she goes to pig out. It might also be a security thing because he knows you'll come to him that way.


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## tielmom

I sent you a message


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## Berdnerd

Ugh! We had to do a bunch of errands and I fed Izzy before we left. He had a small doughy wad in his crop. I don't understand why since he has not been fed too thick formula. I didn't have time to post on here and ask what to do and I didn't want him to wait 3 hours to be fed, so I fed him 1 1/2 CCs of watered down formula made with electrolyte solution and massaged it into his crop to break up the wad. Now I'm thinking I should have fed him formula that was even more watered down.


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## tielmom

poor thing...you can not win for losing huh??? I really hope things start turning around for Izzy and he starts growing by leaps and bounds. Your stress level must be through the roof right now. Hang in there, you are doing great.


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## Berdnerd

Tielmom, it's frustrating  If his body would just digest properly, I think he'd be okay! His feathers are growing great and his poop looks pretty normal even, it's just his digestion holding him back. I need to get a picture of him with Phoenix to show you guys how tiny he is. His feathers seem to be developing in track and all, but he's just a little bitty thing half the size of Phoenix, and Phoenix is small too at 70 grams! Poor 24 day old tiny cockatiel who is the size of a 6 day old chick.


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## srtiels

The doughyness could be yeast. Do you still have the Nystatin? If so, use some every feeding.


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## tielmom

I would love to see new pictures of Izzy...looking forward to seeing both of them.


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## Berdnerd

Oh and Tielmom thank you for the nice note  (I typed this right after my previous post but turns out it didn't go through!)


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, yesterday was supposed to be the last day of Nystatin. Could yeast really form like that in only a couple of hours?


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## srtiels

Yes...yeast can form fast if his body is stressed from the slow growth, and digestions Give Him a big ((((HUG)))) for me...and one to you too


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, should I do the antibiotics too? Anything else I should do if it is yeast? He still has the little lump  I don't want my baby to die. He's sitting with me right now while I type, I'm lying down and he's actually practicing flapping his wings in my face right now and was chewing on my glasses a minute ago.


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## srtiels

No...he has had his round of antibiotics, and probably does not need them again.

Ah...I bet he looks cute flapping away  

Hmmmm....at what age did Phoenix weight stop for awhile? If your little one is flapping it might be ready to fly, and the slow or no weigh the last few days may be a result of that too.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, Phoenix was actually gaining weight when he learned to fly since he'd been sick and was recovering. I looked back in his journal and Phoenix was exactly the same age as Izzy is now when he started to flap.


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## srtiels

OK...Izzy is right on the mark in wanting to flap and prepare to fly. Under normal circumstances the weight will stay the same for a couple days at this age. Hopefully the movements of flapping might encourage his bodys demand of energy and get the digestion moving better.


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## Berdnerd

I hope you're right! I'm amazed how on target he is for milestones even though he's so tiny. I weighed him before feeding him just now and he's 34 grams. Is there anything I can do to get the yeast wad out of his crop? It's not huge, but assuming that's what it is, I can feel it between the layers of skin in his crop.


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## srtiels

_*Is there anything I can do to get the yeast wad out of his crop? *_

OK...what you can do is mix some vinegar water up... 50/50 with warm water. Next time he is empty or almost empty slowly/carefully feed him about a 1/2cc of it. Massage his crop to work it into the mass. Wait about 1/2 hour to feed his formula. Do this once a day till it is broken up.


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## Berdnerd

I'm going to do this right now! Good news is his little crop emptied in about 5 hours except for the doughyness. It's like it's lining the skin of his crop. Apple cider vinegar okay?


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## Berdnerd

Susanne I thought apple cider vinegar makes yeast worse? 

Wish I could look into the future and know if he'd make it. My feeling is that he has about a 25% chance  I had thought 50%, then 75% when he started digesting faster... Little dude is 25 days old today. He's been having issues since he was 10 days old. What a long time for him. Yet he's still hanging on and maybe even thinking about flying soon... hopefully not to heaven!


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## srtiels

What the vinegar will do is increase the acidicity in the crop and help to kill the yeast, and the massaging of the crop helps to break its hold from the skin. Once killed there is no harm if digested....but the thing is to have it killed and broken up in the crop.


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## tielmom

Try to stay positive...I am sure it is hard to do, but don't give up...I think about little Izzy all of the time and I am hoping for a miracle here. So if he starts eating more and his crop starts emptying faster...then he will start growing...right? I will be praying for him and his digestion issues today. (((HUGS))) Keep up the good work.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, do I use apple cider vinegar or white vinegar?

Tielmom, I hope he gets better soon! I love my tiny Izzy.


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## srtiels

ACV...but in a pinch I have used both types with good results.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, will do the vinegar water thing! I hope it does the trick!

I wonder when I'll get the results of the DNA sexing thing. I mailed the feathers on Saturday and am rather excited to find out what my babies are. I'm pretty sure I have two little boys, just like I always thought. Phoenix is 9 weeks old and quite vocal, which makes me think he's a boy. I've looked at Izzy's wing feathers and they're solid close to his body. He actually doesn't have spots, he has bars of yellow on his flight feathers! I read that is common with split to pieds and that's what he is, so no surprise.

I haven't heard back from the company I ordered the formula from. I keep hoping I'll be surprised and it will come today.


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## srtiels

You might want to phone the Co. and find out when the formula was sent out. If they shipped by UPS you might ask for the tracking # so that you can go on the UPS site and track where the pkg. is.

Yes, very elongated and irragular shaped wingspots can be a sign that the bird is split pied.

You can also phone the Co where you sent the sexing to to see if they received it and when the results will be ready. Ususally results are ready within 2 days after they receive the samples. If you checked off on the form that you wanted to be notified by email with the results, check your Spam folder, because the first time I did this thats where I found the results.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, turns out my package with the formula shipped on August 27 so it should be here soon! I'm not going to call Avian Biotech yet, it's only been a few days. By my estimations the samples could arrive today, and I should know tomorrow! Their gender certainly isn't an emergency, just something I'm curious about.

Is it a good sign that the yeast does not seem to be coating Izzy's crop anymore? Now it's a little ball again and I can feel the skin of his crop is normal. I hope we can get this yeast ball OUT! I'm so tempted to just squish it up and out of his crop even though I know that's not possible. It just seems like it should be.


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## Berdnerd

Yay! The box with the Roudybush arrived today! I found it outside the door right as I was leaving for class so I haven't opened it yet. Izzy should be ready to eat as soon as I get home. Half Roudybush and half his current formula, right? Susanne, I'll have to go back and see what exactly you said to do.


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## srtiels

Yes...50/50 the first time, and less of the 1st formula the next time. By the 3rd feeding you can do the straight Roudybi=ush. Just remeber it mixes thinner than the other formula. Too thick and it can gunk into a doughball in the bottom of the crop.


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## Berdnerd

Not to worry, I read the directions and I'll use my gram scale to weigh the formula and water  I'm off to go feed him, just gave him the vinegar water half an hour ago right after I got home. I'm impressed, after massaging his crop I can't feel a ball of yeast anymore. Hopefully it will work and kill the yeast with the help of the Nystatin.

Honesty, Susanne, what do you think the chances are he'll make it? Or not even the chances, but do you think he'll make it? Tiny 35 gram 25 day old chick with good looking droppings. I hope the Roudybush helps him.


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## srtiels

Izzy is a little fighter  And now that you got the lump in the crop just about gone that will up his chances. Hopefully with the formula change you will get good digestion and weight gain. Once you see this then I feel he has a good chance of pulling thru. As to size it will take months after weaning for him to catch up.


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## Berdnerd

It's only 3:30 in the morning here, but in a few hours I'm going to call the vet because I'm worried about Phoenix. About his regression and begging. It seems weird to me that he stopped wanting to be handfed and fought it fiercely from 4 weeks old (from the day he learned how to eat real food), but then started crying for food periodically about a week ago after being weaned for a week. Today (Thursday, not Friday) and yesterday he cried almost constantly. I've been obliging him and hand feeding him. Today he was pretty listless and just sat on his perch and cried and didn't play with his toys, not even his pretty new ones that came in the mail today. He ONLY cries at me- my husband has the flu and was home all day and Phoenix was completely quiet until I got home from school, then he started up and would only stop if I was still (like reading a book) for an hour or so. He also chirps loudly whenever I go out of his sight, which I think is adorable because I know it's a flock call 

Aside from the crying and not playing with toys, he is maintaining his weight. He's been doing something that really worries me though. Every once in a while when he cries, it sounds watery and he moves his beak like he's eating. He doesn't bob his head down or anything, just moves his beak. This is even when his crop is empty. I'm concerned he has a crop infection or something.

So I'm going to call the vet and bring him in. Susanne, what would you suggest they do to him? I really hope our good vet is back in town (she's been gone for months) otherwise I'll be stuck with the terrible vet who tortured poor Kieran with the crop emptying (same vet misdiagnosed my bunny who then died a couple years ago). The hard thing is you usually can't get an appointment for a week at that clinic, with ANY vet!

I hope my Phoenix will be okay and that this is NOT the beginning of a lifetime of health problems. I've been down that road before with Little Bird. Thousands of dollars worth of vet bills and he died when he was 3, which is longer than the (very experienced and kind) avian vet said he would live. I don't want that for my baby.


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## srtiels

OK...if you have to go to a vet ask them if they can give him a Vitamin B complex shot. I have done this with my birds that acted lethagic and they perked right up and were fine. 

The vet can do a fecal gram stain while to are in the office to see if there is any unusual numbers of yeast/bacteria coming from the digestive tract. 

IF, which many vets don't have, has injectable Flagyl, one injection of it may also help if there is an aneorobic (this is bacteria that does not need air to thrive) bacteria in the digestive tract. If so, you would see results and a quiter baby within hours after the injection.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks for the info, Susanne! In addition to the fecal gram stain should they do any testing of his crop? Do you think he needs medication to take home and what kind? My poor guy. He seems unhappy. He's a pretty hands off bird. I handle him all the time, but he does not seek me out to be held or petted or anything. When he's out of the cage, he'll sit 5 feet away from me and just cry! It's strange.


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## srtiels

The vet can do a culture of either the vent or the crop to send out for testing. It will take a couple days for the results to come back...but on the results would show what meds the vet can prescribe if needed, and what bacterial problem if any.

BUT...the in office gram stain should show if there are unusual levels of bacteria, and the most common medication to use would be Baytril....so you might ask about this.

If he still wants to be handfed, you might see if he'll take some of the Roudybush formula.

OH!...something you might ask the vet...since Izzy is having digestive problems you might ask her if she has any digestive enzymes. These can be mixed in the formula and will aid in nutrient absorption and digestion.


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## Berdnerd

Phoenix tried out the Roudybush formula yesterday evening when Izzy was fed. Well, it was the 50/50 blend and he liked it fine. I'm very curious to see how he will act today- Yesterday was an odd day. I was gone more than usual and I had to bring Phoenix's cage upstairs because he was being so noisy and getting on my husband's nerves. He has a stomach flu and a terrible headache and everything that goes along with the flu, so Phoenix had to go spend some time alone! I felt bad "abandoning" Phoenix upstairs, but I would have felt worse abandoning my husband. Phoenix spent about an hour out of the cage with me last night though.

I'm sorry to say that Izzy's lump is still there. I fed him 3 hours ago and the lump reformed  It feels the same as it did before. I'm hoping over the next few days with the vinegar water once a day the lump will go away! Darned thing! I actually dreamed last night about getting it out of his crop. I hate it. Never thought I'd feel such hatred towards a lump.


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## srtiels

Can you ask you vet if they have any catheters or can prescibe some, which a pharmacy may have or a medical supply? If so, you can show her the pixs and say you want some to fashion on a syringe and use to suck out or empty his crop. This way when you use the vinegar water and help to break up the was in the crop you can try to suck most of it out. After the gunk is sucked out, you can use the tube to put some Alka-Seltzer water in the crop to flush it, and suck most of that back out.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I have some EarMaxx syringes with the long, flexible tips. Could I use that? I would love to suck all the icky out of him. It really bugs me. I imagine having a wad of something nasty in my stomach that makes me sick and it grosses me out. I wonder if he can feel it.

If I use the Earmaxx syringe, do I need to soften the tip so it doesn't cut his crop or is it okay as is? I forget which ones I ordered, but I ordered the 2 tip sizes you suggested. Should I use the bigger or the smaller? Exact instructions on how to do it would be great since I don't want to hurt him. I could probably figure it out and it would be fine but if you feel like typing it out, go for it!


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## srtiels

The Earmaxx tips are fine as is. As to insert it down the birds right side of the throat keep the head firmly still between your fingers with the neck stretched the full length. Your fingers will feel the tube in the crop, and try to center it just right where the mass is. Since the tubes are thin, if the gunk in the crop is too thick to draw up, you might have to tube in just a little warm water to diulute it to make it easier to suck up.

Like with empying the crop, you will be shaking after you do it the first time. Good luck 

After you suck the contents out of the crop, squirt them onto a dark plate (and take a pix) If there are particles of yeast they are going to be a soft white color. The 3rd row in this link shows yeast sucked out of the crop: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other birds/Babies in Trouble/


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty! I'm going to give it a try! I'm going to have my dude help me. I want to let Izzy's crop empty of formula before I do it, that will just be a couple more hours. I have to leave for class at 11:30 so hopefully there will be enough time to do it between when his crop empties and when I have to go, otherwise it will need to wait until this evening.

Yeast. If it weren't for bread, I would hate it!


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## tielmom

Good luck Berdnerd...I hope this works


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## Berdnerd

I called the good vet and she doesn't work at that clinic anymore  She moved back to California  Then I called the vet clinic I don't like and requested that Phoenix be seen by the main vet, who I actually like fairly well and is decent with birds (and bunnies). This is not the vet we saw last time, who I only agree to see if there are no other choices (and things ALWAYS end badly with her). The main vet will be out of town all next week, but amazingly enough, there's an appointment today for 3:30! Wow! Usually I have to wait a long time. So Phoenix is going on this afternoon. None too early either because his crop feels like it's full of water right now (not full to capacity, but decently full) and he has green poop 

Susanne, do you think I should bring Izzy too or leave him at home? I'm not sure how much she'll be able to do for him and it may be less stressful for him to stay home.

Okay gotta go to class! I'm going to actually have to leave a class early to make the appointment!


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## tielmom

Looking forward to hearing about you vet visit...hope Phoenix is okay.


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## srtiels

So Phoenix is going on this afternoon. None too early either because his crop feels like it's full of water right now (not full to capacity, but decently full) and he has green poop 
-------------------------------------------------

Full of water is not good at all. TAKE CARE in handling him. If the water squishes up his neck he can easily self-aspirate. Yoy have 2 oprions. Carefully suck out most of this water...and put it into a clean jar to show the vet what you took out. OR, let the vet draw it out. Cultures should be done on this. But if the water in the crop has mimimal oder and has some slimyness to if, this could be a bacterial infection....such as pseudomonasis (pronounced: sue doe mow nas). If you empty the crop of fluid and it atarts to fill back up, and you haven't seen him drink then it definitely is a bacterial infection. What is happenning is the proventriculus is regurgitating water and fluids from the body into the crop. Injectables meds like pipercillin and amikacin work best for this. _*But Hydration has to be corrected first by Sub-Q before the meds....*_have the vet do that and show and sell you the supplies.

Keep us posted.


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## Jenny10

you really are having a bad time, are the birds in your area all got poor genectics? what with having problems with your other bird, little bird, and now all the problems you are having with you current flock.

I hope all will work out well for you, try and stay positive, big hugs


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## Berdnerd

We're back! Phoenix decided to have a miraculous recovery and was the picture of health for the vet. Little stinker. When I got home to grab him and Izzy, he was pigging out on millet and had crammed his crop full of it. No sign of wateriness. We got to the vet and he'd pooped in the carrier then pooped a couple more times- perfect looking poop. We observed him for a while and he demonstrated his whining and also showed off by shaking his tail feathers, preening, stretching his wings, all that stuff. No sign of gurgliness. The vet did a gram stain of his poop and it came back fine. Hopefully he really IS okay and is not just waiting until later to get sick again! She said if that happens, I can bring another stool sample in. We didn't get a crop culture because he was so full of millet that she didn't think it would show anything even if there is something bad.

I checked my e-mail and this thread really quickly before leaving for the vet (didn't have time to post, we were running behind) and got the results of the DNA sexing. I was right! Phoenix is a boy! I was however wrong about Izzy. It looks like we have a tiny Isadora and not an Isidore. So cute! Would it be cheesy to name her Isadora Belle (say it out loud)? Izzy went with us to the vet and you should have heard the squealing from all the vet techs when they saw how tiny and cute she is. I agree that she's adorable but find her tinyness less cute and more disturbing. The vet agreed it's probably yeast and was interested in flushing her crop but I decided not to have it done. They didn't have vinegar or anything to break up the yeast wad and so it would just be flushing her for a sample to see if it really is yeast, then I would have to stick a tube down her throat again when we got home to try to suck out the yeast. I was also afraid the vet would hurt her because remember how Kieran suffered when his crop was flushed at the vet? The vet we saw was NOT the vet I got an appointment for this morning- we were running late so had to see a different vet. Not the one that hurt Kieran, but the one who prescribed us 10,000 doses of Diflucan that we had to pay $130 for. She's nice and said she'd flushed crops before but I was leery.

So now that we're home, I'm about to flush Izzy's crop and try to get out the yeast. Going over the directions for the Alka Seltzer again and am going to practice a bit drawing the syringe up with one hand. Wish us luck! If it doesn't work I'm going to wait for my husband to get home and try again with him helping.

Jenny- Little Bird was when I lived in a different state. He is not related to Arthur or Poppet. I just have bad luck with sick pets.


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## Berdnerd

Oh, Susanne, I need you! Izzy aspirated some of the vinegar water! None came out of her nostrils but she was coughing and now she's squeaking and I can hear it in her chest. She's snuggled with my right now with her crest up and her eyes closed. I feel so bad, it must hurt having vinegar in your lungs... I'm also worried because I got 1 CC of half vinegar half water into her and I'm afraid to let her digest it because it's so much but I'm afraid to try to flush her crop when she's like this.

What do I do? I'll never forgive myself if she dies from breathing in vinegar. Poor baby girl.


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## Berdnerd

She's not coughing anymore but I can hear it in her lungs when I hold her to my ear... I'm sitting her crying uncontrollably, I think she's going to die from this. My poor baby!


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## Berdnerd

I put Izzy back in the brooder where it's warm and dark and so she can snuggle with her bunny. I apologized to her over and over. I feel absolutely, incredibly terrible. Poor little baby! I won't be surprised at all if she dies tonight because of this or in the next few days because of aspiration pneumonia. As if she didn't have enough problems to face!

Maybe if I'd syringed the vinegar water right into her crop this wouldn't have happened. I thought it would be better to feed it to her because that's what I did yesterday and she did just fine with it and I was slow and careful. I thought it would be better to feed it to her because I wanted to have the tube down her throat a minimum of times.

My heart is broken. I've grown so attached to her- she's so sweet, I can tell she'd grow up into a really sweet birdy- and I probably killed her.


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## srtiels

I just tried to phone you when I saw the posting. Give me a call 954-632-0543


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, was that you who just called? John something? I didn't recognize the name or number so didn't answer because I'm not really in the condition to talk to what I thought was probably a wrong number. I will try calling you back.


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## srtiels

Do you still have the Keflex...if so start her on it and the nystatin. Go to the healthfood store and try and get Beta-Carotene.


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## Berdnerd

Well, Susanne and I talked for 15 minutes about Izzy and Phoenix. I feel much better. She said she thinks Izzy just breathed in a little and it's in her sinuses rather than in her lungs. I really hope that's the case! I'm going to start her on Keflex and we're going to get the beta carotene to add to her formula, and keep giving her the Nystatin. I will be holding my breath for the next 24 hours.

Aside from the horrible vinegar incident, Izzy is digesting faster. I fed her at 10:30 this morning and her crop was empty at 4 when I got home. I don't know how long her crop was empty before that.


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## Berdnerd

Also Phoenix is playing with his new toys (he didn't touch them yesterday) and he actually hasn't cried to be fed in a while.


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## srtiels

Ah...that Phoenix is a spoiled bird  He probably enjoyed the outing and extra attention from everyone. I'm glad he is doing well.

Little Izzy will be in my thoughts...sweet little girl ((((HUGS)))) It's fortunite that the sounds are just coming from the su=inues instead of the chest cavity. The Keflex and Beta-carotene will be supportive treatments for the respiratory system. My vet always had me start a bird on Beta-carotene at the first signs of any respiratory distress or problems. And that is great she is digesting better. The change of formula might be what her digestive track needed.

Oh...The name that cam up on your phone was probably John Stumpff...thats my husband...though I hate the last name and still use Russo for me.


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## Jenny10

lets hope the change of formula will be a turning point for little Izzy, Big Hugs, good news that Phoenix is fine, keep us updated on the little one.


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Jenny! Phoenix is being remarkably quiet. He's squeaking some but not the full out blaring crying he had been doing constantly the past couple of days. He actually stayed quiet when Izzy was crying for food, which is a first.

Good news is Izzy is acting more like herself. A little more tired maybe but pretty normal. When I hold her to my ear I can't hear any bad sounds, though I can hear her heart beat! However when I fed her, she was making snorgling sounds when giving the feeding response. I'm pretty sure she wasn't breathing any in but it was nerve wracking. The Roudybush is so much thinner than the other formula and I weigh it out on my scale so I get the proportions right. Does the making bad sounds when begging mean anything especially bad? It will be interesting to see how her next feeding goes. Hopefully she will be ready to eat soon!

I wish I knew if she would be okay. From the vinegar incident and the yeast and the general failure to thrive. I want my baby to stay with me. For some reason knowing she's a girl is really cool, I don't know why. Maybe because it was so unexpected? Funny thing is now she seems ultra feminine to me. Of course I would have been happy if she was a boy, too- heck, it may have been easier since then we could have caged her and Phoenix together! But I am happy to have a little bitty girl.


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## Jenny10

i found with the formula it was easier not to use scales and use mesuring spoons, for the age of your one it will be 1 spoon of formula to 3 spoons water, i also packed the spoons quite hard with the formula so it was a good solid level spoon of formula, i also added a pinch of brobiotic which i still do, i think if its not doing any harm why stop a good thing, the way i see it for as long as the parents would be feeding they would be still giving him vital bacteria's from their crops.

but i am glad Izzy is doing better.


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## tielmom

Oh my...what an eventful evening..I really hope Izzy is doing better today. It breaks my heart to read the stuff you and little Izzy is going through. Try not to blame yourself girl, you are giving HER the best chance at life...stay strong


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## srtiels

Here is something that might be of interest: http://www.avitec.com/AviGain-Weight-Additive-Supplement-p/ag.htm


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## Berdnerd

Well, my baby girl seems to be feeling more like herself today. Poor little baby. I will be relieved when the danger from aspiration pneumonia has passed. We'll be going to the health store to get the beta carotene when it opens here in a few minutes. The grocery store had 3 different brands of it last night but they were all soft gels.

Oh one thing is that Izzy pooped before I fed her and it was greener than usual, but the poop in the brooder looked normal. I'll keep an eye on it of course. 

Susanne, do you think I should try the yeast extraction thing tomorrow again after she's had more time to recuperate? This time I will put the vinegar mix right into her crop through the tube. It occurred to me last night that the syringe can be removed from the tube so I could just leave the tube in her crop while I extract the contents, fill her crop with alka seltzer water, extract it again, and then put in more alka seltzer water. That would cut down on having to remove and insert the tube a bunch of times. Can't believe I didn't think of that before. I think I would have to remove it after giving the vinegar water though because a) I wouldn't want to massage her crop when there is plastic in it and b) it takes a minute or so for the vinegar to break up the lump and I don't want her to have the tube in excessively because it's probably uncomfortable.


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## srtiels

I'm glad she is feeling better. 

I have never tried to remove the syringe from the tip extender so I can't say how it will work. IF you do try it have your husband help, or do it while you keep her neck stratched upwards.

Hows that Phoenix doing


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, Phoenix's poop is still watery (though not as bad) and is getting a greenish tinge to it again. Little brat just wanted me to waste $150 at the vet yesterday! I'll give him a bit more time and see how he does and then bring in a stool sample again. Maybe I need to explain to him that wasting mommy's money means he doesn't get as many new toys and daddy resents him when he wastes money. Another fecal test is $65. Not to worry, all of our pets are well cared for, it's just frustrating to waste money. Especially at a vet clinic that has already screwed us out of several hundred dollars in the past.


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## srtiels

Hmmmm...you might want to add some pedialyte (plain) ro his water 50/50 and see if that helps get rid of the greenish tint. As to the poop, if the vet did the gram stain yesterday and nothing showed, I'd hazard to guess that he is fine, and just may be a reaction to stress from yesterdays trip.


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## srtiels

Hmmmm...you might want to add some pedialyte (plain) in his water 50/50 and see if that helps get rid of the greenish tint. As to the poop, if the vet did the gram stain yesterday and nothing showed, I'd hazard to guess that he is fine, and just may be a reaction to stress from yesterdays trip.


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## srtiels

OOPS!...sorry for the double post...


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## Berdnerd

His poop is back to being normal colored- it was just greenish for 1 poop I think. It's still watery though. Like there's a lot of urine. He has also resumed fussing full force today. Yesterday he was so good and quiet and happy!

Izzy is kind of iffy. When I feed her the chirping during the feeding response sounds kind of weird and she's having trouble chirping normally too. The vinegar incident was a little over 24 hours ago. I guess we'll know in the next few days if real damage was done.

I'm thinking of buying some of that weight gain supplement for her. 1/8 teaspoon doesn't sound like much! Susanne, do the ingredients for it look okay for a baby tiel?


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## srtiels

Yes...the AviGain does soind like it will help, and the ingredients are fiine.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, I'm going to order it for Izzy. I hope it helps her! Little tyke is still lingering around 35 grams and is 4 weeks old today. I hope she gets better. Wonder how many times I've said that in this thread? 

I didn't get any beta carotene  We went to the health food store and they too only had soft gels. I've been giving her Keflex though. Susanne, how long do you think it will be until I can stop worrying about her getting aspiration pneumonia?


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## srtiels

If she was aspirated, by now you would hear real gurgly, andsee heavy labored breathing. If you don't see or hear that you should be fine. Continue the Keflex for a weeks total treatment, just to be sure.


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## Berdnerd

Okay. Her breathing isn't labored but when she chirps, it comes out really short like she's having trouble, and when she eats, she sounds funny when she does the feeding response. Forgot to say that before. Opinion?


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## srtiels

Her feeding responce may be apprehensive if she is trying to take extra care in swallowing, and making sure it goes the right way. Does her nares/nostrils look clear, and no discharge. If some of the liquid did get in the sinues that could effect voice for awhile. How is she acting otherwise?


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## Berdnerd

No discharge from her nostrils. She seems to be acting pretty normally and is bright eyed. I actually don't see her that much- I try to leave her alone when I'm not feeding her because I want her to rest, and of course I check on her quickly throughout the day too. That leads to another question I've been meaning to ask- taking into account her poor health and low weight, is it okay for me to take her out of the brooder to snuggle her and stuff? If so, how long? I would really like to but have only done it a couple times because I don't want to endanger her or stress her.


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## srtiels

Yes...take her out and handle her. As long as she is fully feathered there is less risk of getting chilled. Plus you can encourage her to flag her wings and excercise. This will strengthen the wing and chest muscles, and as they develope it will add a little more weight.


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## Berdnerd

Okay, good to know! I love snuggling her so I'm glad it's safe. The heat finally turned on in our apartment so it's a lot warmer in here than it was, more like room temperature instead of 65 degrees. In the morning the snuggling shall begin! It just turned 4 am here and I'm waiting for her crop to empty so I can feed her and go to bed. 

Susanne, you are a saint for answering my trillions of questions and being so caring.


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## srtiels

Thanks! Enjoy your little girl. And make sure you give Phoenix as much attention so that he doesn't become cranky and jealous


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## Berdnerd

Haha, that boy is already cranky and jealous! He's like "Pay attention to meeee but don't touch meeee!" Funny baby  Love my feisty 10 week old (as of today!) miniature Oscar the Grouch! He's not really that grouchy, I just like to tease him for it. He's a little dynamite birdy.


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## srtiels

It sounds like both have great personalities


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I think so- I guess it's hard to judge Izzy's personality since she's only 4 weeks old and ill, but she seems very sweet. She hasn't hissed at me or anything in well over a week. Phoenix never stopped doing the hissing/rocking thing! I also think she's grown taller even though she hasn't gained weight. She's a pro at pulling herself up on the side of the bucket. I hope that having her out of the brooder more will get her to exercise her wings more, though the thought of her careening around the living room on her tiny wings scares me. 

Is it normal for antibiotics to cause poop to turn greener? Her poops since going back on the antibiotic have a decidedly green cast to them. They looked normal before now. Also the yeast is still in her crop and she went longer than normal between feedings today. Twice when I felt her crop I had to burp some air out of her (not a whole lot, just a little) and she hasn't been crying excessively, I wonder if it's related to the yeast 

Going to go place my order for the AviGain. I figure it will be beneficial to Phoenix also if I sprinkle some on his food.


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## srtiels

Yes...the meds could cause a grreener poop, and if so you might reduce the dosage amount and see if that helps. Also with the Keflex she will need the Nystatin, because antibiotic use can stimulate a secondary yeast problem.


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## Berdnerd

Yep, she's on Nystatin too. Good news is this afternoon she's getting her chirp back and she sounded normal when she ate. She was also 36 grams.

And, what you guys are REALLY interested in- PICTURES! I hadn't taken any in a few days of the birdies, don't know why. As you can see, Miss Isadora is looking more like a real bird all of a sudden! Isn't she darling? She can perch on fingers too 










Tippy toes!:










from the back:





































And the jealous big brother (his beak is blue because of a new toy):










Aren't my babies cute?! I'm going to try to get some of both of them together tonight so you can see the size difference.


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## srtiels

Ah...what cuties  They both have little diamonds on their foreheads. And Izzy is defintely spit to pied.

That look on Phoenixs face looks like he is thinking: Sigh...theres that camera again.


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## roxy culver

O they are such sweeties!!! How adorable....and she gained a gram!!! Go Izzy Go!!!


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## Jenny10

yea fantastic news, girls are always tougher than boys, she's a little fighter lol


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, that does seem to be true, doesn't it? Izzy was very feisty at her last feeding. Her chirping and feeding response sound great. I think she's feeling better. She did worry me though because after I fed her she started kind of coughing- it was odd. She wasn't in major distress or anything and wasn't acting like it bothered her, but it bothered me! I was worried that I'd overfed her because I used a 10 CC syringe for her 3 CCs of formula (ran out of 3 CC and the store is out so I have to use 10 for now) and there was a big bubble in it so I fed her a bit extra to make up for the bubble. I was worried she was going to aspirate the formula so I quickly stuck one of the long, soft syringes down into her crop and sucked out 1 CC. She seemed better after that. I may feed her with a 1 CC syringe instead of the 10 until I can get some more 3 CCs.

This may be completely naive, but seeing as she's 4 weeks old now and so vigorous and bright eyed in spite of her illness, I'm kind of thinking she's going to make it. I'm sure we have a long road but I feel like she'll pull through. I hope I'm right!!


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## srtiels

If you have to use a 10cc syringe, what you can do is suck the amount you plan to feed into the syringe. Hold the syringe with the tip facing the ceiling. The formula in the syringe barrel will shift to the bottom of the syringe...then push the plunger to remove the excess air from the syringe barrel.


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## tielmom

Wow...Isadora looks great I think she is going to pull through too
Way to go...I think her and Phoenix have a lot of similarities...thanks for sharing...would love to see a pic of them together. Hopefully you are over that big hurdle now and she will continue to grow and thrive


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## Jenny10

i think the roudybush formula is helping, mine love's his feeds he even trys to call while he is swallowing and makes a funny calling while swallowing sound, ru ru ru sound as he is swallowing and trying to cry for the next spoon, i have to pull the spoon away and tell him to swallow he is so keen to get the next lot in, lol


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, Izzy does that too- when I pause for her to swallow I put the syringe under the table so she can't see it or else she reaches for it! Maybe it's weird, but I think the begging while swallowing sound is really cute.

Susanne, thanks for the advice with the syringe! I'll have to do that next time.

I'm still quite worried about Izzy- today she was going about 8 hours between feedings. Maybe because of the vinegar incident? She had been digesting in under 6. She seems to vary from day to day. I look forward to the AviGain arriving so hopefully she'll put on a bit of weight. She's so skinny! Also I find it odd that she hasn't gained any weight but is taller. I mean, I'm glad she's growing, but it would be great if she'd gain some too.

Oh also something random, I noticed that her beak is more pink than it was for a while. It was quite pale for some time.


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## Berdnerd

No real update for today. Izzy's the same as she was before. I tried to get some pictures of her and Phoenix together, but get this- Phoenix is afraid of her and won't get within 2 feet of her! What a turkey!


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## tielmom

LOL...hope you have a good day


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## srtiels

_*- Phoenix is afraid of her and won't get within 2 feet of her! What a turkey!*_
--------------------------------------------------------

LOL...what a wimp! He probably is jealous and is not going to get friendly with the 'enemy' that shares your attention. He'll get over it  Tell him it is not going to be fun being an only bird...he needs a buddy.
-----------------------------------
_*Oh also something random, I noticed that her beak is more pink than it was for a while. It was quite pale for some time.*_

I looked at the pix's above of both of them. By now Phoenix's beak should have been turning a grey color. Since both of them have light/pale colored beaks it could also be another indication of them being split to pied, because pieds will have the light/pale beaks.


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## Berdnerd

Huh, that's interesting Susanne. Arthur's beak is quite pale. It has a grayish tinge to it (rather than pink) but is still quite pale. Funny thing is when he was 3 weeks old, Phoenix developed some gray stripey things on one part of his beak (maybe sign of split to pied?), but they're actually almost completely faded now.

Also something else I've noticed: Isadora is tiny but mighty! That girl can clamp down with her beak. For as much as Phoenix fusses, he's never remotely hurt with his beak, but in the process of begging for food, Izzy can bite reasonably hard. Not enough to hurt per se, but enough to take notice, particularly if it's the spot between my thump and forefinger. Also she IS visibly larger than she was a week or so ago. Larger in height, not weight. Time to pack on the grams, girl! Hopefully the AviGain will help.


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## Berdnerd

Alrighty. I went to order the AviGain and they make you buy $20 worth of stuff (before shipping). The AviGain is $12.99. I'm thinking of ordering the multivitamin:

http://www.avitec.com/AviVita-Plus-Multivitamin-Supplement-p/ap.htm?1=1&CartID=3

and the immunity supplement:

http://www.avitec.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AI

What do you think? Potentially helpful for Izzy and Phoenix, or unnecessary?


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## srtiels

The Immunity support sounds great. That would be great to give to the parents too.

I would back off from the vitamins because while on formula they do not need extra vitamins. And if a bird is eating some pellets in it's diet it does not need extra vitamins.
LOL...I noticed in the pix Izzy sure has some long legs


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## Berdnerd

Thanks, Susanne! I ordered the AviGain and the immune one. I figure Phoenix and Izzy would benefit from both. Had to toss in a small beeswax candle too so the total was over $20! It was either that or a box of 50 pipettes. Figure a candle is more useful.


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## srtiels

Great!...I hope it gets there quickly, and that little Izzy catches up to her long legs


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## Berdnerd

Doesn't she have cute legs? When she's hungry, I have to keep my hand around her because she stretches up so tall that if I let go, she topples forwards. She doesn't fall, but she has to run to catch her balance and I don't want her running off the table! She's been flapping her wings a bit more too. Also she was 37 grams at her last feeding! She'd been waffling between 34 and 36 for the past week or so. Hopefully the 37 is not just a coincidence and she'll continue to gain.


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## srtiels

She'll soon be taking off on you  A gram is good...it sure is better than no weight or going backwards. With the late start she has she may wind up being 45-50 grams by the time she weans.

How much does Phoenix weigh now?


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## tielmom

That is such awesome news...I am smiling from ear to ear hearing that Izzy has gained a gram  Keep it up girl and keep those updates coming


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## Berdnerd

Well, Iz is back to 36! I wouldn't be surprised if weight gain with her is a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" thing. She was kind of weirding me out last night because even though it was time for her to eat (aka nothing in crop), she was working her beak and her throat was moving and kept almost lying down on her tummy and rubbing her beak around on my shirt. At the time I was lying down and she was sitting on my belly. It didn't LOOK like she was trying to regurgitate (like Kieran would do), it almost looked like she was trying to pick seeds or something off my shirt! I don't know what that could be about, anyone know? I put a little piece of millet in the brooder but it doesn't look like she's tried to eat any of it. 

Cute side note, the other day Phoenix tried to eat a freckle off my face. He likes preening my husband's goatee too.


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## Berdnerd

I got a video of Phoenix and Izzy tonight!



In it, you get to see Izzy falling off the couch (less cute, but she was fine), lots of bouncy video taking, Izzy following Phoenix around, fluffing her feathers, scratching her head, Phoenix pecking at her, Izzy pecking at things on the futon, and best of all- her trying to fly! She can get a few inches off the ground. It's SO CUTE. And today she started trying to eat for the first time, she hadn't touched the millet I gave her last night but this evening I could see she'd pecked at it a bunch. I didn't feel any in her crop, but pecking is a start! You can see her peck at things in the video  You can also hear the watery chirp and see her throat moving like I talked about in my previous post. Not all her chirps sound watery, just some. She started doing it yesterday and has done it when her crop has been empty (right before feeding) and when partly full and probably also when it's full but I always put her in the brooder right after she eats so she'll be warm. What do you think, Susanne?

Also I find it very amusing that Izzy really likes Phoenix and follows him around while he tries to stay away from her, and I think it's funny that you can hear Phoenix's feet walking around on the couch


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## Jenny10

well watching your video she was begging for food, and trying to pick things up herself, i would introducing millet and seed and pellet, what i did was actually give Rocky pellets from my hand which encouraged him to try and eat for himself.

how do you put that nappy thing on pheonix, i dont think i would get one on my birds easily they would wonder what the **** i was doing, lol, my concern with that would be would it cause a bit of a mess around the vent area if the poop couldnt fall away freely and cause problems through infection if the vent got blocked up?


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## tielmom

What a cute video...thanks for sharing, Izzy looks great 

Looks like she really wants to hang with her older brother and he does not want any part of it. One part of the video, I think it is when he snaps at her...when you pick her up to move her and put her back down, it is like she is jabbering to herself..."what is this birds problem"...lol
Phoenix might as well give in, because she is a typical female and will not stop and I am starting to see that he is trying to ignore her...lol

Love the little peddling legs when you pick her up...too cute


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## Berdnerd

Tielmom, aren't the little pedaling legs cute?! I kept moving her because she wanted to sit on the edge of the couch like Phoenix and I was afraid she was going to fall again. I'm of course now worrying that she has internal damage from her little tumble. Hopefully she'll be okay!

Jenny, yep, begging for food. Like I wrote earlier, she started pecking at things last night so I put some millet in the brooder yesterday. She ignored it all through the morning but by this evening she'd started to peck it some. I haven't felt any millet in her crop yet, but I'm sure she'll figure it out pretty soon. The food in the hand is a good idea, I'll try it. Also the flight suit is fine- it doesn't block his vent or anything. He only stays in it for an hour or so a day and poops in it fine. It doesn't get smushed against him or anything, there's a little pouch that the poop lands in. I love the flight suit because it keeps him from pooping everywhere.


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## Jenny10

thats ok then, i know its horrible when they poop over you, Rocky seems to love landing on my head the other day after feeding him i popped in the bathroom and when i looked in the mirror i could see poop in my hair,  lol, i was getting the toilet paper and rubbing frantically to get it out, lol


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## tielmom

yep...poop in the hair, yes that has happened to me a few times too...what about the face? Talk about gross...YUCK


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## srtiels

What long legs. Phoenix is testy because she is acting like he is an adult and should feed her. Sprinkle some seed on the floor/bedding where she stays so that she can pick at that too.

That type of cry she has is similar to what visual lutino babies will sometimes sound like. Since her mother is a lutino possibly she may have inherited that hitchy type of cry. I used to avoid handfeeding lutinos because of the odd cries some had.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, so the watery sounding cry and all the throat quivering/beak smacking (when she opens and closes her mouth like she's chewing) are okay? I just worry is all. The fact that she does it even when her crop is empty (so no fluid for her to actually bring up) reassures me somewhat. It actually sounds (and looks) the same as what Phoenix was doing last week that partly prompted the vet visit. The watery cry is similar to the cry she (and her siblings) always makes right after they get fed and just finished swallowing.

Also, I was wondering if she was trying to get Phoenix to feed her! I wonder if he knows what she's doing or is just irritated by her. Before they ever ran around together and I had them sitting on my hands (so she wasn't begging at him), he would look scared and fly off my hand to get away from her.


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## srtiels

She doesn't sound aspirated or congested...she just has a strange voice su=imliar to some lutinos I've had in the past (when they were babies)

Poor Phoenix probably doesn't even realize he is a bird, and is wondering what that feathered thing with long legs is...LOL He's probably content being an only bird-child


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## Berdnerd

Hopefully Phoenix gets used to Izzy because I get the feeling she's going to be sticking around! I know she still has some big health problems, but she's made it to almost 5 weeks so I can't help but be a little optimistic. 

I have a couple other concerns with her- her poop is pretty green. Not the greenest I've ever seen, but definitely green. At times fairly watery too. She's on Keflex because of the vinegar incident and I give her the TINIEST amount I can (seriously, just a few little grains of the contents of the capsule mixed with water) but I think the Keflex is making her poop green. You said to keep her on it for 7 days though and tomorrow is day 7.

One other concern. This one is bigger. Izzy still has yeast in her crop. The big yeast wad is gone, but there's still some in there that thankfully has not grown in days. Her crop skin basically just feels thickened. How can I get rid of that? She's been on Nystatin for 16 days of her life- first a round of 10 days, then 1 day off, then I put her back on it when she breathed in the vinegar. I'm concerned about keeping her on it too long (the vet suggested the yeast may become immune to the medicine) but am afraid to take her off if too since she has an active yeast problem. What should I do?


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## srtiels

OK...once off the Keflex her poop should go back to normal, and the yeast in the crop should start to go away. Continue the Nystatin for 1-2 days after you stop the Keflex.


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## Berdnerd

Hopefully that works for us! Do you think I should try flushing her crop with vinegar water again, this time putting it directly into her crop with the long syringe?


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## srtiels

Yes you can put the vinegar water directly in the crop...gently massage into the skin, and then suck up any excess fluid in the crop. Sqirt it on something dark so that you can see if there are any white soft flakes in what you suck up...if so this is yeast.


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## Berdnerd

Well, yesterday was the last day Izzy got the Keflex! I'll keep her on Nystatin for a couple more days and hope her poop stops being green. I think her yeast problem is nearly gone- when I feel her empty crop, I can't decide if the skin feels normal or if it feels very slightly thickened. What I'll do is tomorrow or Monday try the vinegar flushing thing and hopefully I'll be able to tell if there's yeast then. She hasn't gained any weight and is still sitting at 36 grams. Girl's bound to gain some eventually, right?! She also hasn't eaten any millet or the food in her brooder and seems to do most of her foraging when she's out of the cage.


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## Berdnerd

Nothing really has changed with Izzy! She got her last dose of Keflex at midnight so I'm hoping her poop looks better soon. Phoenix hasn't been handfed in several days now and has stopped begging and fussing all the time. He's actually chirping up a storm right now, very cute- tomorrow he is 11 weeks old so I imagine he's exercising his voice since he's a boy!


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## srtiels

_*- tomorrow he is 11 weeks old so I imagine he's exercising his voice since he's a boy!*_
*-----------------------------------*

If you soon start hearing some strange sounds coming from him don't panic  it will sound like a strangled whistle, and he'll be stretching his neck and making weird sounds trying to do his first whistles. It's kinda like a teenage boy when his voice starts to change. Once he starts whistling he may go non-stop for awhile...LOL


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## Berdnerd

I look forward to hearing his funny vocalizations! Today Phoenix is 11 weeks old  He is a good boy. He's becoming more social which is good and wants to have his head scratched a lot. He loves our wedding bands and is always trying to chew them. Also he hasn't been hand fed in several days now, when I offered it to him last night he half heartedly ate about 1 CC and then wanted nothing to do with it. Yay!

Miss Isadora is the sweetest little baby and is 5 weeks old today. She loves a good snuggle and closes her eyes. She's still trying to figure out the whole eating thing and picks things up in her beak but doesn't swallow them. She's still working on flying, too and can do "flying hops" (like in the video). I wonder if her wing muscles are too weak to fly properly. Last night on one of her attempts she flew about 2 1/2 feet and another time it looked like she was going to go farther but she was headed for the table that had a bunch of things on it so I caught her out of the air. Maybe I should have let her just fly, but it was a split second reaction and I didn't want her to land on something uncomfortable. She STILL only weighs about 36 grams.


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## Berdnerd

Still waiting for Miss Tiny Hiney to figure out how to eat. I sprinkle seed and pellets and put millet in her brooder all the time, and when she's out of the brooder I sprinkle food around too and put some in my hand and have hulled and crushed sunflower seeds for her. She can spend quite a while waddling around and picking up food but hasn't mastered the swallowing thing yet! She HAS however found the thermometer probes that hang down from the top of her brooder and I hear her trying to eat them about 20 times a day. Right now, actually! The probes are long wires and she gets the wire part in her mouth (not like the end of the probe in her mouth, the wire goes in one side of her mouth and out the other) and starts giving a feeding response. I'm not worried about her getting shocked or anything because she doesn't bite the probe. Thinking of trying to find some suction cups to stick the probes to the side of the brooder so she doesn't spend so much time trying to eat them instead of sleeping. I'm a bit concerned about her swallowing excessive amounts of air doing it too.

Also I think her yeast is gone! Her crop skin feels normal now. Woohoo! Now let's hold our breaths and hope it continues that way and that she finally gains weight.


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## tielmom

Fingers are crossed that she starts figuring out how to eat some stuff on her own...She sounds like she is doing very well.


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## Jenny10

just an idea is there a away you could attach a millet spray to the top of the brooder so it hangs down like the thermometer probe, maybe she will play/eat the millet instead of the probe


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## Berdnerd

That's a good idea, Jenny. Maybe she'll play with it more if it's at eye level. She does mess around with the millet and plucks off the seeds, just doesn't swallow it. 

The AviGain arrived today! It looks weird. Dark brown and white powdery stuff with some bigger pieces, like it was put through a food processor. It smells like rye bread. I'm about to e-mail the company and ask how much to feed her. Just fed her a few minutes ago and put a tiny bit in her formula. I didn't get home until 9 pm tonight! Mondays are long days! I have it worked out so Izzy gets fed right before I leave so she doesn't have TOO long between feedings. Thankfully the long day is only once a week.


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## Berdnerd

Darn it! Izzy has a lump in her crop again. It wasn't there at her previous feeding. I'm hoping it isn't yeast but assuming it is. I stopped the Nystatin on Sunday- gave it for the whole time she was on antibiotics, plus 2 days.


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## srtiels

OK...tube just a 1/2 cc of plain water into her crop and massage it to break up the lump. It could possibly be from the Roudybush formula...if it is mixed just even a little thicker than recommended it could settle in the bottom of the crop and the liquids digest and leave the solids.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I'm hoping that's what it is. I thought of that too. I'm very careful not to mix the formula too thick and am still weighing out the mix and water, but maybe the addition of AviGain is causing the problem. The people from the website said to put 1/4 teaspoon in each of her feedings. The formula looks quite runny but maybe it's causing issues.


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## Berdnerd

Well, at her most recent feeding the lump in her crop is gone. Let's hope it stays that way!


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## roxy culver

YAY!!! No more lump! Go Izzy!


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## srtiels

Your going to have to talk to Phoenix and tell him he is going to have to help you now  As a big brother he can show Izzy how to start eating some of her millet and food.


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## tielmom

I am smiling from ear to ear...glad to hear such great news


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## Berdnerd

Izzy still hasn't figured out how to eat! She pecks and pecks and chews seeds but doesn't swallow. She even gets the hull off the millet and spits it out. I had Phoenix eat millet in front of her tonight. She was more interested in chasing him around though and he was more interested in running away from her. After she ran around on the couch for about half an hour and got lots of snuggles (she is a snuggler, it's so cute), I got up to go to the bathroom and make her formula. Left her with my husband on the couch. About 5 minutes later I asked him how she was doing, and he lost her! Cue 10 minutes of searching the living room. She was under the rat cage. I've been teasing him all night about how in the world she managed to get off the futon without him noticing. She's fine, thankfully! Oh and she isn't flying really yet but tries really hard and can get about a foot off the ground and fly about 3 feet. I think her muscles need to strengthen.

Susanne, will her digestion ever speed up? She's almost 6 weeks old and is still 36 grams. She has to get better eventually, right?


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## srtiels

I'm glad you found Izzy...they can sure dissappear when they want to, and give us a fright 

As to being little...I would say to expect only a 10gr to 15 gr in weight increase with the AviGain and/or until she weans. This is because at this age she is stunted for her age and it will take the next year for her to get bigger...say about 60+ grams at a year old. She has developed similar to how Little Bit and Squeeker some little birds I once had grew.

She'll have to excercise her wings more to build up muscles to fly.


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## Berdnerd

She's the cutest little bitty bird ever! At least I think so. I love her to bits. At this point I'd be surprised if she died, maybe that's foolish but she's almost 6 weeks old now so I can't help but think she'll make it.

My husband and Phoenix are bonding. Phoenix spends about 4 hours out of his cage with us every night (if not longer). He likes both of us but spends a lot of time sitting on my husband's shoulder. He likes to groom his hair and beard and chew his glasses. When Izzy was out tonight, she decided to spend time with Daddy too. She needed a little boost to get up to his shoulder, but she spent a while sitting on one shoulder while Phoenix sat on the other. It was pretty cute! I got a picture and will post it later. Up until now, my husband has insisted he didn't like Phoenix but I got him to admit tonight that he does like him 

Phoenix is getting more social thankfully and asks for head scratches and stuff now. I'd say he's also 100% weaned now. The last time he was handfed was like 4 days ago. He hadn't begged for food in several days but I wanted to see if he wanted any formula and he refused.


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## srtiels

It sounds like both your little ones are doing good 

LOL...that Phoenix will have your husband wrapped around his big toe soon


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## Berdnerd

Miss Izzy is still 36 grams. I'm thinking of increasing the amount of AviGain. Today she is 6 weeks old! Phoenix is 12 weeks today and has turned into quite the little chunker  He is 81 grams! Go Fifi go! He weighs as much as his parents now. I suppose he could grow bigger, but I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't really  I'm so happy he's gained weight. I wish Izzy would too but at least one of my babies is.

Phoenix is such a little joy. Every day I think how lucky I am to have him. He is definitely loved and treasured! And he's so nice to spend time with, I just put him in his flight suit and then he waddles around on the couch and hangs out with us. I can even have a bunny out at the same time because they ignore him (though I wouldn't let them get too close to him just in case, particularly Rory who is possessive of me). I'm thinking of bringing him outside for a little while this afternoon if the weather is warm. His wings are clipped (not completely but enough that he flutters to the floor over about 10 feet) and I'll have him in his flight suit with the lanyard attached and the lanyard secured through my belt loop. I am very cautious!


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## Berdnerd

Oops, double post!


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## roxy culver

Sounds like you got a little goofball at home lol!


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## Jenny10

please dont take him out without a harness, or in a cage, the slightest bit of wind can give them lift, they are so light, he might panic and fluter and could be gone before you could do anything about it.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, like I said, if I take him outside, he'll be in his flight suit with the lanyard (leash) attached and the lanyard through my belt loop. I would never bring a bird outside unharnessed. Heck, our yard is fenced but I still won't let my rabbits run around unless they're in their play yard too!


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## Jynxstorm

Berdnerd said:


> Jenny, like I said, if I take him outside, he'll be in his flight suit with the lanyard (leash) attached and the lanyard through my belt loop. I would never bring a bird outside unharnessed. Heck, our yard is fenced but I still won't let my rabbits run around unless they're in their play yard too!


I agree with you there Bernerd. If I were to take my two outside without the cages I would go out and buy a harness for them. But right know when i do they stay in the cages. for now.


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## Jenny10

oh thats good, when you said flight suit and hangs out on the couch, (couch here is the sofa, although we do get couch grass as well here) i thought you were talking about his nappy thing


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## roxy culver

Jenny10, a couch here is also a sofa, she's been putting Phoenix in his flight suit in the house to get him used to it I think and because I guess it minimizes his poop getting everywhere lol.


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## Berdnerd

My baby Izzy is losing weight! She was 33 grams this morning. She will be 7 weeks on Sunday. She still is just pecking at food and can't eat on her own yet so I feed her the same as I've fed her the past 5 weeks- 3-3.5 CCs whenever her crop empties, which is every 8-9 hours. I've been adding the AviGain to her formula and am considering dropping it in case that will help.


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## srtiels

Yikes!...if the weight drop started at with the Avigain, then drop it. If you have been keeping notes/journal of what have been giving daily, backtrack to what worked as far as any weight gain. (((HUGS)))


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## tielmom

oh no (((hugs))) I was wondering how everything has been going...have not heard anything in a couple of days...poor baby, I hope you are able to figure out what will help her to start gaining weight again. Give her a kiss for me


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## Berdnerd

I fed her the AviGain for the first time on September 13. She did gain some a gram, then was her regular 35-36, then yesterday she was 33. Then last night she was 36! And 35 just now. I weigh her at least once a day. Maybe she just felt like throwing me for a loop yesterday. 

2 days ago she was practicing her flying and flew into things twice. Not at high speeds (she does not fly fast or go far!) but she's so little that it worries me. Is it normal to be able to shift their rib cage back and forth a tiny bit and hear a quiet clicking sound when you do it (with your ear against the chest)? Arthur's first mate died months after flying into a wall so I'm very cautious about such things now.


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## srtiels

_* Is it normal to be able to shift their rib cage back and forth a tiny bit and hear a quiet clicking sound when you do it (with your ear against the chest)? *_
*----------------------------*

Do you mean like a crackling sound like crumpling up cellophane? If so, that can happen sometimes. There are air sacs on the side of the body and that might be where the sound is coming from. I had one bird that sounded like that every time i picked it up.

That is great about the weight gain. It could be that it slowed because she was late in flying. The flying and flapping will help build muscles with also add a little weight.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, I suspect it's the air sacs. She seems fine. Sorry I haven't updated, but she's exactly the same as she was a week ago (and 2 and 3 weeks ago!) so I haven't really had much to say. Except that I love my tiny girl! My husband and I had to choose whether to go to Washington (where my family is) this Christmas or down to Anchorage (where his parents are) and we chose Anchorage because I have the feeling Izzy will STILL be getting hand feedings then. She'll be 4 1/2 months old then, but she's so itty bitty and still isn't eating on her own so I'm afraid to plan to leave her alone with a pet sitter for a week. This way we can take her with us since it's only a 7 hour drive. Knowing me I'll end up bringing Phoenix too just because I don't want to leave my boy behind. My mother-in-law likes birds and has a parakeet so I don't think she'll mind. If she does, we'll just stay home and have our first Christmas alone together which is fine too.


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## srtiels

Whew!...I'm glad you posted...I was wondering how Izzy was. Quite possibly she may take 4-5 months to wean. Over the years I have had a couple like that.

Also...I was wondering if you have room for a couple more tiels? If so, if you would pay the shipping I can send 2, as a gift, I think would make a good pair and real nice babies. The Male is Noodles, my favorite bird and he is a sweetheart. He is a pearl split to pied, cinnamon and whiteface. And Carmen, she is a cinnamon pied (possibly split to whiteface)...but she is a parent raised bird and not hand tame.


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, that's so kind of you to offer! I would love to if we had more space and the time to breed, but we don't. Next summer I'll be taking classes the whole time and then I'll be going into my student teaching year which is very difficult. If the situation was different, I would jump on your offer though. In a few years I would like to try breeding again. I've seen the worst that can happen, so I know what I'm getting into!

Isadora (or Miz Iz as I've taken to calling her) is still tiny even though today is her 8 week birthday. She's 35 grams still. Still not eating on her own. She's getting a little better at flying and certainly tries, but cannot really gain altitude. She's still in the brooder, but I want to get her into a cage. I'm afraid she's not getting the mental stimulation she needs being kept in a plastic box that's covered by a towel all the time (so it's dark) with only a stuffed bunny to keep her company. I think she'd enjoy being in a cage, but I'm afraid she would get chilled since she's so tiny. My idea is to put a heating pad under the cage and on the side of the cage, and put a heavy blanket on top of the cage with it hanging down on 3 sides to keep the warmth in. It's about 70 degrees in our apartment. Does this sound okay or would she get weakened? She's used to temps of about 85 in the brooder.

Also I've thought of putting her in the cage with Phoenix so he can show her how to do birdy things, but he still hates her and I'm afraid they'd both get stressed out being together.


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## tielmom

So happy to hear that Izzy is a fighter !!!
I really hope she starts putting on some weight...Would love to see an updated photo of your two


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## roxy culver

I'm with tielmom, pictures please!!!


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## Berdnerd

I'll get some photos later- they both look the same though! Cute and feathery! Izzy is a much darker gray, she's almost charcoal.


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## Berdnerd

Hey guys, it's been quite a while since I've updated. Izzy is exactly the same as she was before and she's now 10 weeks old. I want to move her into a cage this weekend (with heating pads on the bottom and strapped to 1 side and a fleece blanket covering the top and 3 sides to keep her warm) because I think she's very bored in the brooder. I've been lowering the temperature in the brooder a bit every day to get her ready for cooler temps. She's still so itty bitty (about 34 grams) that I don't think she's ready to be completely heating pad free. At least now she will have some little perches to sit on and can play with toys. I'll put her bunny in the cage too for her to snuggle.

Phoenix is very sweet and charming. He likes to eat spinach and has the cutest new chirp. I'm taking him to the vet this week because he's lost some weight and has green poop.


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## tielmom

It appears that Izzy is going to be like a premature baby and take some time to grow and mature...I really hope she starts putting on some weight soon, she seems so very tiny. Is she getting any bigger just not weight wise? Hang in there, I am happy to hear she is still fighting


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## Berdnerd

Another update! She's still super tiny. Hasn't gained any weight or gotten any bigger. She looks exactly like she did a month ago. She's almost 12 weeks old and nowhere near weaning!


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## Jenny10

i am glad to hear she is still ok. it must be worrying though.


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## Berdnerd

Izzy has not had a good day  She's fading I think. She's clumsier than usual and seems a little out of touch, if that makes sense.


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## srtiels

((((HUGS))))...she is in my thoughts. Has she tried to eat on her own yet? And how is Phoenix doing?


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## Berdnerd

My baby girl died in my hands a few minutes ago  I peeked in on her in the brooder to find her lying on her stomach and gasping. I picked her up, gave her some kisses (I always gave her a kiss after feeding her before I put her back in the brooder), and petted her until she died. She died about a minute and a half after I picked her up. As you can imagine, this is a very sad time for me because she was 13 weeks old today and I raised her by hand since she was 10 days old. I was never certain that she'd survive, but I loved her very much anyway- how could I not? As terrible it was when her siblings died, I raised her for 11 1/2 weeks compared to only a day or two for Kieran, a few days for Teddy and Neeja, and 2 weeks for Nico. I can't believe it's over  Back before we had ANY babies, I repeatedly said that I'd be happy if we just got 1 baby of this. We have the wonderful Phoenix (who is doing well), which I'm very grateful for, but it would be so much better if we had Izzy too.


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## Jenny10

I am so sorry to hear of your, loss I can only imagine the pian you must be feeling after raising and fighting with this little one for so long.

my thoughts are with you. Big Hugs


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## lperry82

Oh no i am so sorry


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## tielmom

I am so very sorry for you loss...Izzy was such a fighter and adorable!
I know you must be taking this extremely hard...you put your heart and soul into her and she was very fortunate to have you... (((hugs)))


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## srtiels

(((((hugs))))))....


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## roxy culver

I'm so sorry for your loss sweetie, you tried so hard...she knew you loved her!


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