# Breeding question



## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Hi guys
Long time ago I wrote here in some topics, got a lot of help, now I need some again lol.
My 2 yr old female started laying eggs last xmas and could not stop...she saw my husband as a mating partner...so we decided to get her a male. The male is experienced, had couple of clutches but his mate died. It took a long time for them to bond, I am not quite sure they really did. The male is in love I can see that and is courting all the time. The female ignoerd him for a while now she start having interest in the nest box which is ready. She chews on the entrance outside and inside, she jumped in couple of times...meantime she got really witchy with the male 
Few days earlier I noticed that the female started her mating behavior (just like last year this time)...butt in the air...lil chirping...the male sometimes goes close to her on the same perch....but when he gets real close to her...she yells at him and he leaves.....

I do not know what to do  Seems like the female cannot see the connection between the mating "feelings" and the male.....

Any idea?
Thank you!!!


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## xoxsarahxox (Dec 13, 2010)

Sounds like they aren't very bonded, it's not very productive to breed an unbonded( called bondage) pair they will fight alot and make very bad parents. Give them more time to bond without a nestbox, if they cuddle and preen, sleep next to eachother, follow eachother around, cannot be without one another they are bonded.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

No they are not very bonded...sometimes i find them on the same perch in the mornings, and I saw the female preening the male but like for 3 seconds once a week  Them male cannot be without her, he follows her around but the same thing is not true with the female, she rather bonded to us humans.
I am just afraid that she will start laying infertile eggs again just like last year


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with infertile eggs. I would remove the nest box and increase their night time hours (amount of dark time). It sounds like she may still be bonded to your husband. They're going to need more time before they can be a mating pair.


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## 4birdsNC (Dec 4, 2010)

She is laying because she is being stimulated hormonally... the nest box is a big part of it. Like roxy said, reduce light time, and take the box down!


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Okay I believe you guys  It is also very interesting that the female got aggressive towards the male...started chasing him around even in the cage and bites him 
What if I remove the box but the female already developing eggs? Will she just dump them on the bottom of the cage???

Thank you!


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## 4birdsNC (Dec 4, 2010)

Szafije said:


> Okay I believe you guys  It is also very interesting that the female got aggressive towards the male...started chasing him around even in the cage and bites him
> What if I remove the box but the female already developing eggs? Will she just dump them on the bottom of the cage???
> 
> Thank you!


Yes she will Drop them on the bottom of the cage. But hopefully she will not lay many and will stop after the stimuli are gone.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Also, she's chasing the male around the cage because she doesn't see him as her mate so he's an intruder.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Well meantime things changed a bit so here I am again...Skye started having more and more time in the nest box but that is one thing, but we also called the local breeder we got the male from. She said we simply should not interrupt nature...since the female does her mating posture in the cage when my husband is not even around that shows she does not think anymore that my husband is her mate. Obviously she is bonded to us since she lived alone with humans for 2 years but she has been living with the male for 8 months. She is still aggressive with him around the nest however from time to time, when the male goes into the nest box (and she lets him to do that) she sits in front of the entrance peacefully. When she is aggressive towards the male she bites him on the tail or on the back, never tries to strike for the feet or eyes, no feather loss, no blood...so the breeder said that can be all part of her hormonal state and unless we notice real fights that can be dangerous, we should let them be and let them work things out. The worst that can happen is that the female starts laying and will not even let the male get close to the nest and then we may have to separate them. She also said that since Skye is bonded to us, maybe it is helpful not to take her out and pet her etc. For example of course she does not want the male preen her, she always got that from us...

The male is extremely cute and patient...looks like he exactly knows what he does, i was watching them all day, he gets closer to her and to the nest little by little...amazing to observe it.

I know the breeder is thinking like a breeder I get that  But I can see the logic in the "do not mess with the nature" idea.

Since Skye laid 30 eggs in 3 months without a nest box anyway maybe removing the box will not help at all...but if she lays in the nest box that may help her to develop her natural instinct??? What do you think about that?

I am not an expert just love my birds and want the best for them

Thank you for your help


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

30 eggs in 3 months! Oh wow! I am no professional breeder.. but honestly I think that is just nuts! This poor girl's health is going to go downhill. Maybe others will disagree.. but I say separate them and make sure there's nothing nesty. That is just too much for her. If she still lays without him, move her toys/perches around in her cage.. move her cage all together to a different spot.. do 12 to 14 hours of darkness at night.. no soft foods. I disagree with the whole letting nature take its course on this one. BUT.. this is just my opinion.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

DyArianna said:


> 30 eggs in 3 months! Oh wow! I am no professional breeder.. but honestly I think that is just nuts! This poor girl's health is going to go downhill. Maybe others will disagree.. but I say separate them and make sure there's nothing nesty. That is just too much for her. If she still lays without him, move her toys/perches around in her cage.. move her cage all together to a different spot.. do 12 to 14 hours of darkness at night.. no soft foods. I disagree with the whole letting nature take its course on this one. BUT.. this is just my opinion.


Awww sorry probably I was not clear....those 30 eggs happened at the beginning of this year without any nesty things or a male cockatiel....we did all we could...changed the inside of the cage...reduced sun light...everything...nothing helped....she kept laying. That is why we got her the male, lots of ppl said if they bond and breed and the female can hatch her eggs and raise the babies, she will not lay eggs like crazy all the time.

So now we got the male, the female who is in the mood but not really bonded to the male....the let nature thing was not about the 30 eggs  The breeder only said they will figure out what to do since the male is experienced and the female wants to breed she just cannot see the male as a mate because she is over bonded to us. I understand when others say they will not mate because the female cannot see the mate in the male, the breeder's opinion is that since Skye laid eggs alone, without the nest we might as well try to leave them alone and see what happens


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Ahhhhh... I get it now! Well hopefully she gets to become a mum someday.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Have they successfully mated? If not, these eggs too will be infertile. I had a female who was extremely bonded to me but she also bonded to a male and was able to have babies so it is possible. I agree trying to let her get this out of her system but if it gets to the 30 eggs point again the box should come down and everything needs to be done to prevent laying.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I agree...gosh I do not want her to lay 30 eggs again  It was such a hard time because no matter what we tried she kept doing it....
I do not think they have mated however I cannot watch them all the time  Looks like the male is trying to teach her very very slowly and with a lot of patience...like 3 days ago she did not let him to stay even close to the nest when she was in there...now the male can knock or chew the entrance and she is ok with that...very interesting to watch them really....in the last 2 days Skye did not even want to come out to me or to my husband while she is usually screaming for it. They also ate out of the same plate today when I have put some fresh romaine lettuce on the bottom of the cage...this is again new, Skye got used to eat produce or meat out of my hands, the only thing they ever shared was some eggs, but even then Skye got nervous and ran off after 1 minute...now they were eating together for long minutes...I know these are small changes though and may mean nothing 

My best hope is that the laying in the nest box with the male around her can help their bonding and maybe I am completely wrong...if she lays and i will not see any sign of nesting together or better bonding, I will take off the box right away after she abandoned her eggs. However after our past experiences I am not sure that would stop her...once I read a story about a similar, chronic egg layer female, the final solution was getting her a fertile egg she could hatch, and once she raised the baby she was done....maybe that is what we will have to try eventually.

I am curious if you can help their bonding as a human? I know they are very picky and the fact that Skye lived with us for 2 yrs without a male does not help. But it breaks my heart that I have a pretty girl who wants to nest but probably just out of hormonal changes and I have an unhappy male who is completely in love


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

It sounds like they are bonding, so it looks promising. Just keep doing what you're doing. I always felt bad for my male because no matter how much she liked him, she would still have rather been with me lol. The worse case scenario, if this doesn't work or raising babies doesn't work, there is a shot that can be given to her to stop her laying. But that's the worse cage scenario.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Well by this morning....we got an egg in the nest....sighs...I doubt that it is fertile but I am really curious if this will change anything in the female's behavior towards the male

I have heard about that hormone shot and also heard that it is even worse for the bird than constant laying  Let's hope we will not need that


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Skye is sitting on her one egg already...she lets Sam to sit on the perch at the nest box entrance but when he tries to peek in usually gets chased away a bit. I know cockatiels take turns and usually the male sits during the night, I do not know if Skye will let it happen, I pray for peace between them lol


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Actually its the other way around...the male sits during the day the female sits at night. You can candle the egg at day 5 (a pen light will do) to see if its fertile. This is why you have to get them used to you messing in their box. She can sit full time by herself, I have a pair where the female sits 24/7 and the male only sits either with her and when she goes to eat. So it wont hurt her if she wants to sit all the time. The male may get bored though.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I think their bond is very fragile because Skye lets Sam to sit and guard the nest but that is all....as I wrote if he tries to go in she gets furious!! Can this be normal or as we discussed the female just simply does not accept the male...looks like Skye's protective instinct with the nest and the egg have broken that little bond that just started

Btw thank you so much for all your help and responses


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

All females are different...she may think that since she had to do it alone before then that's how she's supposed to do it this time as well. Remember she's not used to having a mate to help her out so she's going to need time. Its only if she starts attacking the male that' you'll have to remove him.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

You mean attacking him even if he is just sitting in front of the nest? Or chasing him around and biting him?

I have another concern...I remember when she was laying in the beginning of this year just on the corner in her cage we had to take her out to eat and poo like twice a day because she refused to leave the eggs. I do not want to do this again because it would disturb her whole nesting...but if she sees the male as danger to her eggs...how will she feed herself for example?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I mean hurting him type of attacking, like if she's drawing blood. All tiels will fight, even bonded pairs, so normal squabbling no. Is she eating now? If she's still eating and pooping she should be fine once the eggs come. If she doesn't, you'll have to remove the male from the cage.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

She was eating for example like yesterday when she already spent most of her time in the nest, she came out once in a while....but now she is sitting on her first egg and she does not leave, I have not seen her out of the cage since morning


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Since she has not left the cage for almost 9 hours, I tried to take the male out...but he was really fighting against me of course, meantime Skye jumped out and somehow I took her out....she had a big poo of course and I put the water dish on the table outside of the cage and she had like 4 huge drinks...hours ago I have put some millet in the nest so she probably was not hungry....if she does not dare to leave the eggs because the male is there then I am afraid I will have to separate them (I have a separator wall for the cage). Or am I supposed to take the female out to feed, drink and poo? Unfortunately that is what we had to do when she was laying alone...she refused to leave the eggs and even go to the other part of the cage where her food was. Maybe we over reacted and she would had eaten etc without our help as well...not sure for how long a cockatiel would stay OK without food and water in a nesting situation? Again it is about nature vs human worrying I think....
Do you agree or I still should let them be without interrupting? 

Thank you for your advice again!!!


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

There is also something else to consider.. you said you took her out and she had a rather large poo. She wouldn't be pooing if she wasn't eating. I don't think you have been sitting there with your eyes on the nest box for 9 hours straight..  She is eating somehow. You are being the typical first time worry wart as I was. Give them some space and let them do their thing. It is very typical for the male to take the day shift and female at night. But it's not unheard of for roles to be reversed. Take a breath.  She may very well be wanting him to leave her alone because she's getting ready to lay another egg. Mine went through various times of not wanting to let this one in.. not wanting to let that one in. You have to remember that they are trying to figure this out too.  And if this is their first clutch.. it is also not uncommon for the clutch to not make it to hatching. There will be more if this is the case.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If you think the male is inhibiting her, you could take him out of the cage every now and then so she can take a break, then put him back in. The male plays a major role in taking care of the babies so it will be good to have his help when they hatch.

Breeding birds don't like to poop near the nest, and will often try to avoid pooping in the cage for this reason. If you take your female out of the cage from time to time she may poop more often. When my birds are nesting I take them out of the cage several times a day for a poop break because otherwise they'll just hold it in, and I hold them over a piece of newspaper or plastic until they've done their business so I don't have huge poops landing on the floor. If I can't get them to the poop zone in time I'll put my hand under the bird and let them drop it in my palm. Washing my hand is a lot easier than cleaning the carpet.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Oh guys I feel so guilty of worry lol...you are so right Arianna  And Tielfan it is exactly what we tried too when she first laid...held her above a clean trash can 

Well things changed and I am really amazed....after 10 hours she did come out again, drank, and had some seeds...we called the breeder we got the male from and she said Sam probably tries to feed her...but the most amazing thing happened after I covered them up for the night...Ok ok I peeked...she was out of the nest box sitting on an upper perch right next to the male :blink: They are still there...together...after she fought him all day...isn't that something???


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's great that they're getting along! The eggs will get cold if she stays out of the nest for more than about half an hour, but they probably weren't fertile anyway. If she abandons the eggs, take down the nest box so the birds can get to know each other better without the nestbox stirring up everyone's hormones. If they form a good bond you might get some fertile eggs in the spring.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

There is only one egg for now and as far as I know they usually won't even sit till they get like 3 eggs. I assume she was sitting during the night cuz when I uncovered them she was out but with a huge dropping under her


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> There is only one egg for now and as far as I know they usually won't even sit till they get like 3 eggs.


It depends on the individual - some birds just can't wait and will start sitting right away, while others will wait until there are several. When was your egg laid?


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

It was laid either early morning on thursday or late evening on wednesday.
I just mentioned that usually the won't sit till they have more than 2 eggs cuz Tielfan said the eggs would get cold if she stays out of the nest like she did yesterday, but she only has 1 egg for now.
Today she realized that the male is not dangerous for her nest because several times I saw her coming out to eat and drink. And the male is very sweet I think even if in the past he sat on the eggs with her other mate, he understands that Skye cannot trust him, so he does not even try to go in while she is out and he stays out of her way.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Males are pretty good at sensing what their mates will allow them to do. Fuzzy has been paired with two different girls (his first mate really didn't like him, but she really wanted babies, not a good idea) and with the first he shared sitting duty, but with the 2nd he had to stand back and let her do the work.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

They are so smart...I always knew that but now I can see it clearly 

Second egg arrived by this morning (again probably not fertile) but I still complimented on it to Skye


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Szafije why do.you.think.the eggs arent fertile


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

angelmommy24 said:


> Szafije why do.you.think.the eggs arent fertile


Hi Angelmommy
I think because Skye was laying eggs before without a male and she is really bonded to us, not to her official husband  I cannot be 100% sure, but I have not seen real signs of mating and bonding before she started laying now. Everyone says they should cuddle, feed each other, being together all the time...I have not seen anything like that


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Feeding each other isn't part of the standard cockatiel courtship routine, although there are some tiels that will do it. There are other species (like budgies) where the male feeds the female while she's sitting on the nest, so feeding her IS part of the courtship process. With cockatiels, the male helps incubate the eggs and feed the chicks while the female goes out and feeds herself.

Of course the surest and most obvious mating sign is copulation, and cockatiel pairs will "do it" several times a day with the hen making ecstatic little cries that are very noticeable if you're home when it happens. If you haven't seen any of that going on then the eggs are probably infertile. If you HAVE seen it happening at least once then the eggs may very well be fertile even if the birds don't otherwise show affection. Buster and Shodu don't act very affectionate but they have 30 children and want to have more, and they're faithful to each other even though there are plenty of other birds they could mate with. Shodu is more affectionate with me than she is with Buster, but she also seems to know that Buster can give her babies and I can't.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

What I have seen many times is the female doing her mating posture and the male was dancing around her 
Yesterday while i was feeding the female with cooked pasta (she was sitting on the perch) the male sneaked behind her, even put one of his feet on her back, but with the female focusing on the pasta, nothing else happened of course :blush:
I never seen them actually "doing it"...but that does not mean they never did it I guess we will know soon


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> the male sneaked behind her, even put one of his feet on her back, but with the female focusing on the pasta, nothing else happened of course


It sounds like your male is still shy and tentative so it's likely that they haven't mated yet. If they had previously done the deed, the male probably would have climbed aboard whether she was paying any attention to him or not.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

He is an experienced but very gentle male and I am sure he knows he has to be careful around the female who never actually mated before...or for some other reason


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I have a question...I am worried about Skye's droppings. I know they hold it but in the last 2 days she only relieved herself during the evenings, and then her sropping is not the green-white-clear mix anymore, rather a pastel green loose dropping that looks almost sandy when dries...is that normal???
When she was laying alone we took her out several times during the day to eat and poo so I have never seen an "all day long held" dropping before 

Thank you!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Take her out several times a day to poop and see if it reverts to normal. Keep a close eye on the situation. The all-day poops are usually dark. The "egg droppings" picture http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=10100&page=3 is a typical example although the poop can be firmer than this.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I posted a photo in the that abnormal droppings topic, thank you for sharing it


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Just a little update...we have now 4 eggs, all look infertile, but today the male sneaked in the nest to sit on the eggs while the female was out, it was really cute....and they started eating out of the same dish all the time. The vet said sometimes a cockatiel who is bonded to humans needs like 2 years to bond to another bird...ah well


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