# Urgent! Egg bound cockatiel



## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

My female cockatiel has been acting differently than normal, but I'm not sure if she's just tired or egg bound? She looked odd in her nest box so I got her out to see if she acted differently out of it. She was able to walk around and flew over to the other cage, but once she was in she tried to sleep straight away and I've been able to touch her easier than I'm normally able to. She's on a perch right now and is sleeping; does this sound like being egg bound? I don't know that there are any 24 hour vets in my area so if it is, is there something I can do now before I get her to a vet?


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hello If she was egg bound you would be able to feel or see
the egg at her vent. If so dab a little olive or cooking oil
around & in her vent (cloaca) & keep her in a warm place.
Other wise just keep her warm.....B.J.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

If she was egg bound would she be able to fly an move around like she was? I couldn't see anything but I'm not too sure when I feel her cause I haven't touched her there before so I don't know what to compare it to? How obvious would it be?


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi OK When you lightly press her vent If you can see or feel
if it's hard or soft. If it's soft don't panic she's probably not 
egg bound. Or you should be able to see her vent open a
little & the egg inside. Take care you know how fragile egg 
shell is, beware of breaking an egg inside her body...B.J.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Her vent/cloaca? I'm assuming we're meaning the same thing, has always been slightly open; I took her to the vet months ago (way before she laid eggs) to see if she was egg bound and she wasn't so for her it's not the best indicator. I felt her abdomen before and I couldn't feel anything; but I don't know how obvious it should feel? I was really just running by fingers along her abdomen. It's how lethargic she's being that's worrying me and that I can touch her easier than normal. I'm not sure if she's being this tired cause of egg binding or because it's 10.30 at night. She isn't normally like this though. She's still perching and is sitting with her mate. She hasn't gone back into the nest box


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi OK I think we can rule out egg bound Just keep he warm & quiet
till you get to a vet.....B.J.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Would it be not detrimental to her if I keep checking on her? Or should I leave her for the night and look early in the morning? Out house is heated so its warm and she's got food and vegetable plus water nearby.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hello Yes,that's the best . Peace & quiet....B.J.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

I've got a picture of her here. I'm more worried at how lethargic she's being than anything else. She normally wouldn't make it easy for me to touch her, but I've been able to feel her abdomen without her making much of a fuss about it at all which is what is concerning me! In the pic you can see how one eye is shut and the other is open; she's been doing that a lot. Her mouths open because she was mid sqwawk not because she's having laboured breathing. Also, she's always been very fluffed up above her tail, so that's not new. She had a big drink before and is still perching - I'm planning on leaving her for the night now that I've seen her drink unless anyone says anything different. I don't live at home where she is; but I am a 10 minute drive away so if I need to get there ASAP I can. I'm planning on going home around 6.30am when it's light to check on her. 

If anyone has any advice on what this is (unless she really is just very tired and I'm freaking out over nothing) other than egg binding then let me know! To be honest, I'm tempted to get the vet to make a home visit tomorrow just to have a quick look at her without me having to move her. 

Thanks!


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

She's the pearl up the front!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

She looks awful.  

USUALLY egg bound birds will take on the bottom of the cage.

Is she pooping?

I would confine her to a smaller cage where she cannot move around as much and keep her warm. 

Please keep us updated.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It is still possible for her to be egg bound, so that is *not* ruled out. Can you take a picture of the vent itself?

Has she laid any eggs already? If so, how long ago was the last egg laid? And how long has she been in this condition? 

Keep her confined the one cage because allowing her out to move and fly is risking her breaking the egg inside her and that can cause infection or blood toxicity.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Maybe it's because she's in preening position, but I think her posture looks similar to that of a hen that's getting ready to lay. Here's one of srtiels' pictures for comparison:










Susanne (srtiels) also has some information on her website at http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/egg-related-problems.html Depression/lethargy can be a symptom of egg binding. 

The article doesn't provide any information on home remedies (probably because seeing a vet is really the best way to deal with egg binding). But there are some things that can be done at home that sometimes help relieve egg binding:

1. A drop of liquid calcium placed directly in the beak. Calcium is needed for normal muscle functioning, and this might restore muscle strength to a hen that is calcium-depleted from egg production.

2. Warmth and moisture/humidity: you can put the cage in the bathroom and run hot water in the shower to steam up the room. You can put some warm water in a bowl and stand the hen in it. Another frequently-recommended technique is to hold the hen above a bowl of steaming water but this sounds kind of dangerous to me. If the natural humidity is high, you can simply place half the cage over a heating pad (which is a good idea anyway to help her keep warm even if eggbinding is not the problem here). 

3. Lubricating the vent with a bit of oil or KY jelly.

4. Drinking a little bit of Pedialyte or Gatorade won't directly help with eggbinding, but it might help improve her energy level if her electrolyte balance is low. There are recipes for homemade pedialyte at http://birdboard.com/forum/topic/8602093-rehydration-electrolytes/


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Update: I just went home to check on her now and she seems a lot better. Still a little lethargic but nowhere near the extent that it was last night. She ate some apple and soft food and had some of her cuttlefish bone. She didn't seem impressed that I woke her up so I left her and will try to take photos once it's properly light. I'm not sure if she was just really tired last night or if something was up. Now I'm really tired! Woke up every two hours after having dreamed different scenarios of what might go wrong! I was so relieved to find her okay this morning. I'm still going to ring the vet later this morning and describe to them what happened and see if they think she needs to be examined. 

Thanks for your help!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Yes, please do check with the vet. There are different types of egg-related problems so that can't be completely ruled out, and there are other possibilities such as a bacterial infection. It's always a good idea to provide supplemental heat for a bird that might be sick, by placing a heating pad under half the cage or by covering one end of the cage with a cloth and shining a lamp on it at a range that lets the heat from the bulb pass into the cage. 

Is she pooping normally?


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

She seems to be! The room is kept very warm because of the heating and having the curtains shut at night. Also, she's laid 11 eggs, but she's double clutched so there were seven in the first and 4 in the second. She hadn't laid any more since last Thursday so I assumed she'd finished laying. Neither have been sitting on the eggs now though so I'm not sure when I should get rid of them. I don't want her to lay more to replace them


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The information about the egg laying is very significant. If she has developed a calcium deficiency from the egg laying, it's possible that she has one or more soft-shelled eggs inside and is unable to pass them because they are too soft for her body to get a proper grip on them, or that she has developed peritonitis due to internal leakage from a soft-shelled or no-shelled egg. The difference in clutch size is kind of worrisome; the second clutch is much smaller than the first, and it's possible that she didn't mean to stop at four eggs. It's best to contact the vet ASAP.

Here are some of Susanne's collages related to soft-shelled eggs and other egg-related problems. Not all of them are directly related to your hen, but it's a good illustration of the kinds of problems that can occur:


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

We were worried about the new eggs, but we thought because we removed the DIS ones from the first clutch (towards the end of them being sat on) that she might have laid these ones to replace them? There's eight eggs there now, so only one more than the original clutch size. But we weren't sure on this. All the eggs laid so far have had normal shells; she gets a lot of calcium through fresh vegetables, the cuttlebone, the soft food and the room gets a lot of natural sunlight as well. I'm about to head home again now to check on her; my mum said she's back in the nest box so I'll check that as well. It's hard to judge her posture and fluffiness because she's always been weirdly fluffy to the point that I took her to the vet, but they said that's just how she is so that's not the best indicator for her. I'll try and snap a photo of her vent soon and put it up here as well as phoning the vet. I don't think any of them are avian specialists, so is there anything vital I should mention to them just in case? 

Thanks heaps


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Can you let us know where you're located? It would be best for an avian vet to see her for this situation. We can try to look one up for you if we know your location.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm in Wellington, New Zealand. 

I've got pictures of her here


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This is the vet listing for the Australasian avian vet association. http://www.aavac.com.au/find-your-local-avian-veterinarian/ New Zealand listings are down at the bottom of the page. I hope that there is one located close to you. One of them is apparently associated with the Wellington Zoo; I don't know if that's a viable option or not, but you can at least try to call if it's reasonably nearby. 

If soft-shelled eggs are involved your hen might not have the same symptoms that an eggbound hen would have with a normal egg, and a regular vet might not be able to figure out what's going on. You said before that she was pooping all right, so any eggs in there have not completely blocked her vent. If abnormal eggs are present they might be higher up in her body. 

I really hope that this is a false alarm but a good vet is the only one who can determine that. Birds are pretty limited in the thinking-skills department, but your hen probably had some idea that all the older eggs are nonviable and would have tried to lay a complete new clutch to replace them regardless of how many eggs were actually present in the nest.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Her vent area doesn't look any different than it normally does, and she's acting normal now. She's perked up a lot as well now and is chirping away.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I've updated my last post a bit so you might want to look at it again. Since the bird is acting normal then maybe everything is OK, but if I were you I would at least try to talk to a veterinarian to see if they have any recommendations, and it would be good to make an appointment to be on the safe side.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

I'll have a look through now and give someone a ring. How long should I wait before removing the nest box and the eggs. She hasn't laid anything since Wednesday/Thursday last week (it's Monday here now) and no ones sitting on them, including the new ones. Even when they go in the nest box they won't sit on them, they just use it as a play house now. I don't want to remove it too early and have her get stressed and not lay if she needs to.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Leave the eggs until she doesn't care for them anymore + a week. It usually takes about 3 weeks for them to give up on the eggs.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

When the eggs are being completely ignored, the usual advice is to wait for a week before removing them.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

I phoned my local vet and explained everything to him, and I've got an appointment for tonight at 6. He said to give her the rest of the day and see if she perks up and if not to bring her in. He said it was not that likely to be egg bound since she hadn't laid anything since last Thursday/Wednesday and if she was symptoms should have shown up sooner. He said it could be bacterial and he'd give antibiotics. What would be the least stressful way to take her down? It's only a five minute drive, but should I be leaving her in the nest box in the cage without the eggs or moving her into our small cage and taking her like that?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I'd go the small cage route, it will give her less room to hurt herself in.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks; I'll go that route. She's been to the vet before and she was fine, I'm just a little worried on the off chance that she is egg bound that she'll freak out and crack it.


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

UPDATE: She laid an egg! Which is both good and bad... Good because she is absolutely 100% now, completely fine. A little sleepy, but not that depressed, lethargic sleepy she was last night. Bad because now we have nine eggs (four from the first clutch and five from the second). They're not sitting on them, but I don't know if she'll start sitting on them again when she's finished laying this clutch. Is there anyway to stop her laying more in this clutch or do I wait until she's finished with it and then do the light reduction techniques etc. I wrote down the time that she laid this egg so I'll keep an eye out for her the next couple of days and see if the same thing happens again. The egg was hard shelled so I'm assuming that it's because she's laid so many that she had a bit of trouble with this one? 

Thanks for everyone's help! Feeling very relieved that she's even better now.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

once she gives up on the eggs and doesnt pay any attention to them for a week, remove the nest and eggs.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Is there anyway to stop her laying more in this clutch or do I wait until she's finished with it and then do the light reduction techniques etc.


It takes at least a week for the long nights treatment to start taking effect under the best of circumstances, and when a bird is already laying eggs the hormone levels are high and it's harder to bring them down. So it's probably too late to stop her from finishing up this clutch (if she isn't finished already), but you can try if you want to.

Breeding birds are more vulnerable to infections because of the extra physical stress involved in breeding. So it's still possible that she might have a bacterial infection or something like that. 

An egg can have a shell and still show signs of calcium deficiency. Does it look perfect and smooth or does it seem like the calcium in the shell is rough or uneven? The hen may have depleted her own body of calcium to produce the egg and had trouble laying it as a result. Talk to your vet about this when you see him/her, but if might be beneficial to get some liquid calcium and start feeding her appropriate amounts of it.

There are liquid calcium supplements made for birds that contain vitamin D3 and magnesium in addition to the calcium (these nutrients help with calcium absorption). I don't know how available these supplements are in New Zealand, but you can probably find liquid calcium for humans that would work just as well.


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## sangs_becky (Jun 25, 2012)

hey there , how is your tiel doing now ? did you take her for a vet check up?


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes I did; she's fine at the moment - sleeping! The vet basically said what was said on here; he didn't think it was bacterial, he thought she was so lethargic last night because of the egg using up calcium stores as opposed to being egg bound. He said give her extra calcium supplements with the magnesium etc (which I got from a pet shop). But then he said something completely different which goes against most of what I've read: he said to get rid of all her eggs and her nest box. I thought if I did that then she would try and lay more eggs to replace the ones that have gone, and that I should wait for her to finish sitting on them. I also thought if I removed the nest box while she was nesting she might be more likely to become egg bound because she'd retain the egg longer (or something along those lines). He said that by keeping the eggs and the nest box there I'm encouraging her to lay more; so I have no idea what to do! I haven't touched her nest box or the eggs. 

Also, the egg laid today was the same as the others; it had a hard shell etc, but I'll take a picture tomorrow and see if it shows any deficiencies etc. Also, I was wondering how you tell if you're giving too much calcium?

Thanks heaps guys; I'm relieved she's doing so much better - I had about two hours sleep last night worrying about her. I held my breath going in this morning because I was terrified that she might have died over night. I'm so attached to her :[


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There are some circumstances where taking the nest and eggs away can shut down the breeding urge, generally when there has just been a dramatic change in the hen's life like losing her mate or going to a new home. It's usually safer and more effective to let her keep the eggs and nest. She has already laid five eggs which is a full clutch for many hens, and with any luck the trip to the vet has been disruptive enough that she will stop now. If this was my bird I would not take the nest and eggs away right now, but I'd pour on the hormone control techniques and take away the nest once I was absolutely sure that she was out of breeding mode. If you need any info on hormone control, we have it at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32330

The website at http://www.newyorkbirds.net/calcium-vit-d.html lists the symptoms of hypercalcemia (excess calcium). I tend to be cautious about using liquid calcium, and if this was my bird I'd probably feed the liquid calcium according to the instructions for a week or two, but then I'd focus on getting her outside frequently for some natural sunshine, which is the best and most reliable source of vitamin D3. I believe you said earlier that she has a cuttlebone and eats it, so she has a good calcium source already but may need some help in the vitamin D department. There's more info on ways to provide vitamin D at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27549


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## sangs_becky (Jun 25, 2012)

You can add little amount of white sesame seeds to her a diet from now on , because it has a good amount of magnesium content.
I'm glad your tiel is doing better


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

My tiel still seems to be doing fine (her name is Jazbop for future reference :]). She laid another egg today, almost exactly 48 hours after her last one (literally almost to the hour). The calcium on this one wasn't even; I've attached a photo for reference. She didn't have any trouble laying it, and was very active before and after laying it. It was only because I looked in the nest box to check that I noticed there was a new one! So no issues there at the moment. I am worried about the excessive laying. She's currently got 6 now from this second clutch; I know the normal amount per clutch is from 3-8; so I'm assuming if she lays another four over the next two weeks then she'll be in big trouble. I've started reducing light hours. 

Today she kicked two of the eggs out of the box (both were infertile; one was infertile from the first clutch, and one from the second. One egg cracked completely and the other was fine). I got rid of the cracked one and put the other back in the box. I noted which egg was kicked out so I can remove it if people think I should. At the moment it seems more like they're using the nest box to play in than anything else. She'll sleep in it at night, but she won't sit on all the eggs; only two or three and currently there doesn't seem to be a pattern as to which ones she's sitting on. I'm wondering if I should be removing the old eggs from the first clutch. 

Also, since she's been sitting on some at night, but then none are being sat on during the day, is it possible that they've stopped any chance of viable embryo growth because of them being chilled during the day? 

I was also wondering if anyone had any pictures of what an early prolapse would look like. She looks fine at the moment, nothings hanging out or anything like that; I just know that the chance of that is increasing due to her laying so many eggs. I've looked at more drastic pictures of prolapses and I promise she'll be at a vet long before that happens! I look at her vent every day to check so I should know ASAP if something like occurs. She's on liquid calcium (with D3 supplement) that goes into the water. She is eating all of her broccoli and going nuts with the cuttlebone (especially today which I'm assuming is to replenish calcium after laying). 

Thanks heaps for everyone's help! I've also attached some other photos of her, so you can see how she's improved from that first photo I posted!


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

... Sorry that some are upside down! Don't know how that happened! Also; I do clean the top of the nest box twice a week!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I would remove the old eggs from the first clutch. How warm is it where you are? Sometimes, if its warm enough, birds don't have to sit on the eggs they only have to turn them. But you can candle the eggs to see if any are good. But if its not warm and they're not being sat on during the day then most likely the eggs aren't going to develop.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If she eats any kind of moist food that you can put the liquid calcium in, that's a more effective delivery method than the drinking water. The calcium is very diluted in the water and most of the water won't be drunk. If you mix the calcium with a small amount of moist food that is all or mostly eaten, she'll get more of it that way. The calcium will affect the taste of the food though so it's possible that she'll reject the food.

I don't know the exact time frame for egg production so it's possible that she formed the shell for the newest egg before she started getting the liquid calcium. But it sounds like the calcium has helped her a lot with the actual laying of the egg. 

You can get rid of any eggs that were tossed out of the nest. Those eggs have definitely been rejected.

The eggs from the first clutch are rejected eggs at this point too because she's laying new eggs to replace them. You can leave one in as a substitute for the new egg that got tossed out, but the old eggs don't seem to be doing anything to inhibit her from laying new eggs so you can get rid of the others.

Birds can't actually count, but based on very limited observations I think that at least some hens seem to know how many eggs they've laid. Shodu will keep on laying eggs until she has laid exactly five eggs inside a nestbox. If she laid any other eggs before I put the nestbox up, she will still lay five eggs in the nest and also take care of the additional egg that was laid outside the nest and put in the nest by me. If I put a bunch of fake eggs in the nest to discourage her from laying she will still lay five eggs in the nest. If she lays five eggs in the nest and I steal a couple of them and give them to another pair, she will not lay additional eggs to replace them (although the time I did that it was her second clutch of the year so she was less motivated. If I did it with her first clutch it's possible that she might replace them.).


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## xxxemmzxxx (Jul 27, 2012)

Alright, so she's still been laying eggs but not every two days; they've been more spaced out than that. She's now got seven at the moment and I'm not sure if I should be removing the nest box. Neither of them are sitting on the eggs during the day and at night she's sleeping in the box but not on any of the eggs, even the more recent ones. Should I be getting rid of the box? She last laid an egg today. 

Also, my mum spotted them mating the other day; they've done this before without there being any eggs, but does that mean I should just leave the box?

Thanks for everyone's help!


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i think if theyre not paying any attention to the eggs, remove the box and place the same amount of eggs at the bottom of the cage (but use fake eggs), just in case.

just my thoughts, see what others say


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's hard to know for sure but I tend to agree with DallyTsuka. But the last clutch was seven eggs if I remember correctly, so maybe she has finished her current clutch now. If she lays any more eggs, I would assume that nestbox is doing more harm than good, and take it away from her as well as disrupting the situation in other ways, see http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32330

If she stops laying eggs I would apply the hormone control techniques, but maybe leave the nestbox up just a little bit longer while the hormone control hopefully starts to take effect. That's a tough decision right there, since leaving the box up will help keep her hormone levels up, but taking the box down while the hormone levels are still high could make her start on a replacement clutch.


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