# My boy has a respiratory infection, opinions please!



## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Sorry ahead of time for the long post. Please help if you can. 

Last week I noticed my boy sneezing a bit, and I didn't really think too much about it (he was scratching his nose with his foot and that's when he would sneeze). After a day or so of this I started paying closer attention to what he was doing. His nose got pretty red, he started breathing hard (through his beak, tail bobbing with every breath) and I could actually hear him breathing standing next to the cage. He would also make some really loud clicking noises with the sneezing, its hard to describe this part. 

The next day I took both of my tiels to the vet (they share the same cage), just to make sure my girl wasn't getting sick as well. They did checkups on both of them, and he for sure has a respiratory infection. She isn't sick, but they put them both on an antibiotic called Baytril just to be safe. The dose is .04ml 2x a day for 10 days. Were now 4 days into treatment and hes not really showing any signs of improvement. His nose is still really red and hes still sneezing and breathing through his beak (though the clicking noise is pretty much gone). Hes fairly active, his behavior hasn't really changed from his usual. He doesn't go down to the bottom of the cage, he stays up with the other tiel, moves around quite a bit, plays with toys here and there (hes never really been into playing with the toys). Hes drinking and eating fine from what I can see.

I have since moved them from the living room to our bedroom in an attempt to keep their environment warmer (69ish in the living room to 74ish in my bedroom) just because my room is a smaller area to crank up the heat. I'm making sure they have fresh water daily, and get plenty of undisturbed sleeping time at night.

Do I need to be worried? Should he be showing signs of improvement by now? Am I doing something wrong? I don't want it to get any worse than it already is... The vet told me to wait it out for the full 10 days before I try anything else. Does this sound like a good plan? Ive never been to this vet before, so Im not really sure what to do.

Also one more thing. They said a healthy weight for a tiel is between 90 and 100 grams. My girl weighed in at 92, and he weighs 82 grams. They said hes underweight and that his crop was empty when they examined him. What can I do to try to get his weight up? Its not like hes not eating... Ugh

Thanks for the help.. -Dennis


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Im really not sure what else you can do other than keeping them warm and continue with baytril, you can check the keelbone to see if he is underweight http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=17680
my cookie is always between 75g-80g and he is small boned and healthy
rice and pasta is good to help with the weight


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> They said a healthy weight for a tiel is between 90 and 100 grams.


Tiel weights aren't that simple. There's a lot of individual difference in size - 75 grams is the ideal weight for some birds and 120 grams is ideal for others. The only way to really judge a bird's weight is by the feel of the breastbone aka keel. If it sticks way out the bird is too thin; if it's buried under a layer of fat the bird is too heavy. It's hard for amateurs to judge this, but experienced people can do it easily.

I have 12 cockatiels. All of them are in the 75-90 gram range, and they're all healthy and vet-approved.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Based on those illustrations he seems to be normal. The keel doesnt stick way out like in that picture... Both birds look the same, just she is a little bigger than he is. Thanks for the tips, Ill just keep on doing what Im doing and hopefully he'll get better soon. Is Baytril a good medication?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Baytril is used a lot for cockatiels with bacterial infections. None of my birds ever had a problem that needed it so I can't speak from experience. But apparently it's pretty effective.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Did the vet take a culture from his nares or choana? If the Baytril isn't working, it may be that a different antibiotic is needed to treat the bacteria that he has. It's also possible he has a fungal respiratory infection, in which case the antibiotic would do nothing. While it does sound like he's not getting worse, Baytril usually shows substantial improvement within 48 hours. I'm not sure why a vet would recommend waiting ten days if the meds aren't working. Birds can decline very fast when they have an infection. Is there another vet you could see for a second opinion?


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Alright, thanks 

On another note... man its a pain in the butt to give it to them lol, let alone twice a day.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Baytril is a great med, but only if the organism that's making your bird sick is sensitive to it. See my above post.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

No, they didnt do any cultures. They were going to if it doesnt clear up within the 10 days. There is no other avian vet close to me other than this one. I had the option to have them do cultures when I was there, but we just spend $750 on our pug at the vet, and this visit already cost me $100, and I didnt have the extra $50 to spend on the test. She said she didnt really see a need to right now though, not unless he didnt get better. Do you think I need to have some tests done?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know, honestly. If it were my bird, I'd be pretty nervous about waiting at this point, since I know respiratory infections can cause them to deteriorate quickly. On the other hand, Im not a vet and I haven't examined hour bird. And it does sound like you've seen some small measure of improvement. I don't want to tell you that you must run out and spend the money on tests when he may be recovering fine, but I personally probably would. Do you have a gram scale to weigh your bird? It would be valuable to know whether he's losing or gaining weight, as that's often an important indicator of health. You also might consider a heat lamp. I believe the recommendation for an ill bird is to keep temps 85-90F. It might be helpful for you to read the stickies on this forum about supplemental heat.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

I dont have a scale no, but I can pick one up just to have. I did actually buy a heat lamp for them, but I didnt like the clamp lamp base I had to use with it, it didnt secure very well and I didnt want it to fall. Maybe Ill give it another day or so before going back for tests. If I do I have to pick up more meds anyways, so I would already be there. Is it just a stool sample? Or how do they do it?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It would depend on what tests the vet did. If it was a culture, they'd take swabs from the nares and choana (roof of the mouth). I believe fungal infection is typically diagnosed through bloodwork, and you'd have to discuss the pros and cons of that with your vet. Some vets will only draw blood with the bird under anesthesia, and that's pretty invasive especially for a bird that's already sick. On the other hand, if that's what it takes to diagnose and find the right treatment, you'd want to do it sooner rather than later. I think it's definitely a conversation worth having with the vet.


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## xxxSpikexxx (Jul 30, 2007)

I hope he starts showing improvements 
I would feed him all his favourite things to keep his energy up


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Well hes still not showing any improvement, and his loud sneezing noise is back. So I made an appointment to take him back in tomorrow. Poor guy


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear he's not doing better.  I hope you get the answers you need at the vet tomorrow.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

I really hope so, Im worried about him


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Just got back from the vets office. They took an X-Ray and hes got a mass in his left lung taking over half of his lung 

They arent 100% sure on what it is, she said it could either be a tumor, or aspergillosis granuloma. I cant afford the tests to determine which it is. The drug she said that I can try is Ketoconazole, with a dose of 1.64mg twice a day for two weeks. She said if its a tumor, the drug wont do anything, if its a granuloma, it can make it easier for him to breathe. 

I dont know what I should do at this point... she said that drug can have some harsh side effects, but if I dont do anything it will just get worse.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear that.  I'm glad you went back and got more tests, though. 

If it were my bird, I would go ahead and treat with the Ketoconazole. If he has aspergillosis (which is not uncommon in cockatiels, from what I've read), he needs treatment sooner rather than later if he's going to recover. You don't want to wait until it's too late, and then question whether you could have done something. If it's a tumor, then you have nothing to lose. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh. I know it can be really hard to make decisions like this. Your bird has been a fighter so far, though. I think he would you to try the meds.

Do you have him in a hospital cage? That plus a heat lamp might be very beneficial to him now. That way he wouldn't be stressing his system expending the energy to perch and maintain his body heat. Check out the stickies at the top of the health forum. They're very helpful when treating a sick bird.

And please keep us updated! I've been thinking about you and your birds.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

I cant get the prescription filled until tomorrow, I need a compounding pharmacy for them to make it. Ill start with that, and hope for the best. I dont have a hospital cage no... And I dont have my heat lamp anymore either. I wasnt prepared for this, so I didnt expect to need a second cage. Ive seen some smaller used cages for sale on craigslist, would that be OK? so long as theres food and fresh water? The two of them hate being separated, but if it would be helpful I can look into it. Its sad, hes only a year and a half or two years old


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

His age might be a good thing, though. If he does have a fungal infection, he'll have a better chance of recovering than an elder bird. 

I didn't mean to alarm you by saying start right away. If it's been this long, I think he can weight until tomorrow. I just meant you'd want to make the decision whether to treat sooner rather than, say, days from now when he might be weaker.

You could set up your regular cage as a hospital cage. Just lower everything down, and put some towels on the bottom to make it comfortable. I don't think you need to separate them. Your female (are they the two birds in your signature?) has already been exposed to whatever he has. She would just need to deal with having the cage rearranged, but it wouldn't hurt her to have the extra supportive environment. 

Check out these stickies on supplemental heat: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=16019 http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=16020 I believe they include directions on how to improvise a heated environment if you don't have a lamp. The temps you listed in your first post are pretty low. A sick bird should really be in an environment that is 80+ degrees, so it would be good if you could get it warmer.

I really hope the new treatment helps him. You are being such a good bird parent to them, I'm sure they know how much they are loved.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, I really do appreciate it. Ill get working on getting him more comfortable right away. Yes they are the two in my signature. I'm trying to be a good parent, Ive always really loved birds. I had a couple as a kid, but wasn't responsible and it didn't work out. Now that I'm older I finally got some again, and I'm trying to be as good as I can. I wish he would show appreciation for how much I take care of them, hes a little brat most of the time, lol. Not the most friendly, but he only ever bit me hard when I first got him. Im one of the only people who can really hold him (I do have to hold, if I dont he'll fly away) He better get nicer after this!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

They know you love them, even if they don't always show it in the ways we want. I literally grew up with my 18 year old 'tiel, and he still won't let me do anything but put him on my shoulder. They definitely can be brats. 

I completely sympathize with the stress of caregiving, especially in a crisis like this. I adopted my first 'solo' 'tiel three months ago, and it's been a huge rollercoaster. I've had birds since I was five years old, but this is the first time I've been solely responsible for one. It's definitely a whole different situation.

I really do think you're doing a good job for your guy, though, and he'll know that whatever happens. You're giving him all the best chances you can. They are beautiful birds, and I hope you get to have many more happy years with them. Try to take care of yourself, too. I know that's easy to forget when one of our babies is sick.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Yeah, that on top of the Final Im in the middle of taking right now. Stressing me out for sure... You've been a huge help, and I thank you


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think it's some kind of rule that things like this have to happen at the worst possible times. My girl got sick in the middle of my first grad school midterms. >.< I'm sending you good thoughts for everything.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I know you might not have time to read them right now, but here are two good articles about aspergillosis in birds. I'll warn you that they sound kind of dire, so try not to let them freak you out. I just thought they might help you with additional ideas for treatment.

Case study of aspergillosis sinusitis in a 'tiel: http://www.forthebirdsdvm.com/pages/aspergillus-sinusitis-in-a-cockatiel
General article about aspergillosis treatment and prevention: http://www.parrotchronicles.com/features/aspergillosis/aspergillosis.htm


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

I just wish I would have done this a week ago when we started the other meds. Maybe he would have been better by now, ugh


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Got it filled today... He is turning out to be an expensive little bird :wacko:


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It really does add up quickly. I hope this is the answer you and he need.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Just read this thread. So sorry to hear about your little guy. I hope the medicine helps. How stressful. Keep us posted as to how he's doing.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

We are also keeping our fingers crossed here for your little guy. A lot of people don't realize how when they post about their experiences with their birds, they help many others. You are a great example for taking your bird to a vet and doing everything you can for him. When he is feeling better.. and we hope this is the answer to his problems.. I am sure you will get thanks from him on some level.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

DyArianna said:


> A lot of people don't realize how when they post about their experiences with their birds, they help many others.


This is such a great point. I've learned so much from reading other people's medical threads.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Well I started him on the new meds tonight, we'll see how things pan out. Ive been holding him on my chest for 15 minutes or so, the weezing just sounds so bad, hes obviously struggling to breath. Please don't die on me little guy


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Does it sound worse than before? Could you try putting him in a steamy bathroom for a while? It might help him breathe better. Be sure that he doesn't get wet, though, since you don't want him getting chilled.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

If you think it's an emergency, you could also try taking him to a vet to be put in an oxygen tank. Even a vet that doesn't normally see birds should be able to do this, although it will be expensive. Knowing that he has a mass in his lung, you'll have to weigh whether that option might be worthwhile, or if you think it's best to keep him at home with you. There is also a lot to be said for being able to hold and love them when they are struggling.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Well hes been on the new medication for a week now, giving it to him twice a day. His condition is unchanged, maybe even a little worse. His sneezing is more frequent, and pretty squeaky. Id say hes breathing through his beak at least 90% of the time now. At this point I just don't know what to do, I cant throw any more money into searching... I don't make enough to do that 

I miss my healthy happy boy


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear that.  Could you perhaps do a phone consult with the vet? It seems like they should be willing to at least do that, at this point. Have you discussed the possibility of a steroid or antinflammatory to help with his breathing? I don't know if that would be appropriate in this case, but it might help him with some symptom relief. I've been thinking about you and your birds this week.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your bird,I hope he gets better.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

I didn't get the chance to talk to them today, Ill try tomorrow to see if they are open. He got his last dose of the meds today, but its not looking promising. If he doesn't get better what are my other options here? Hes really struggling to breathe, I don't want the poor guy to suffer


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I honestly don't know.  I know that I've read about people treating for aspergillosis for 30-90 days, and using injectible meds. So you could try asking about a steroid, or a stronger antifungal. Unfortunately, if what you saw on the xray does turn out to be a tumor, I don't think there's really any way to treat.  I'm still hoping for the best for you both.


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## MissCV (Sep 18, 2010)

Im very sorry for your little bird and your situation. Anyone that has had a sick bird understands the stress you are going through, so know you are not alone. Its very hard, but it sounds like you are doing all you can. Sorry i cant offer advice but ill keep my fingers crossed for you. Good luck


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

My poor guy is just getting worse 

He cant make it though the night without having sneezing attacks. His breathing is getting worse, its fast now, like hes really gasping for air... and the weezing is getting louder. Hes making a new noise if he flaps his wings or anything really active, like a yelp of pain....

I dont want to watch him suffer anymore. Is it time I look at my options for having him put down?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Where are you located? Is there any chance you could get a second opinion from another vet? 

If there really is no treatment, then I'm sorry to say that yes, I think you need to look at options to end his suffering. But if it were my bird, I would want to hear from more than one vet that there REALLY was nothing else to try. 

I'm so sorry to hear that he's not better.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

I live in Washington. I would have to drive to Seattle to find a certified avian vet, but that would be a couple hours away. Ive called all the local vets and where I went is the only one that will examine birds. But again, the costs of taking him to another vet and having more testing done would again be another couple hundred dollars Im sure, which I just cant afford 

I know everyone says dont get a pet unless you can afford to take care of it if it gets sick... Its not like I havent done anything about it, Ive done what I can without putting me in a financial hardship any more than I already am. I dont want to see it end like that, but he really looks miserable


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't think anyone could possibly consider you an irresponsible owner. You have gone above and beyond for him. At the end of the day everyone has limited resources, and you do have to know your limits, because you still have to be able to provide for yourself and your other bird. 

I don't want to mislead you with my advice. I have never had to make the decision to put an animal down, and I honestly can't say what I would do in your situation. If you could get a second opinion from another vet with more experience in treating aspergillosis, that would probably be ideal. But the truth is that from most of what I've read, it seems by the time a bird has symptoms as severe as your guy does, it is probably too late for treatment. You do have the imaging study which shows a mass in his lung; that's going to be hard to treat no matter what. 

Sometimes the only gift we can give them is the chance to have a peaceful passing. Please understand, I'm not telling you this is what you SHOULD do, but that it sounds like you are justified in considering the option. Please try not to be too hard on yourself. You are SUCH a good bird parent. I hope you are still able to see that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

One additional thought -- Could you ask your vet to do a phone consult with a certified avian vet? Maybe they might have ideas about other antifungal meds. That's probably a longshot at this point, but it might be worth exploring.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

We made the decision tonight to put him down. It was a hard choice, and it really sucks... The vet did an autopsy for me with no charge, and the mass in his left lung was a for sure tumor and there was nothing I could have done. There was also a second tumor in his right lung, smaller in size. The one in his left lung was over half the size of his heart. I did the right thing, but it still sucks. I really want to thank everyone for their help, especially enigma731, you were a huge help throughout this.

Tonight Sunny sleeps alone, Im sure shes going to mis sher buddy. Evenyually Ill get another, but not right away. 

RIP little guy


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm really sorry to hear that you had to make this awful decision, but I'm glad you got closure and are able to know that it was the right one. He loves you, and knows that you did all you could to give him a great life.

I understand not being ready for another bird right away. Maybe try to spend some extra time with Sunny if you're able. I think it will help you both heal. Roo sends you and her cuddles and beaky kisses.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your loss,you did the best you could do for your bird.give Sunny all the love you can.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

you did the right thing and he is no longer suffering anymore. 

i am sorry to hear of your loss


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. I can't imagine how difficult this has been for you. You made the right decision and that knowledge should give you some comfort. Again, so sorry.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

So sorry to her of your loss. You are in our thoughts. I agree you made the right decision.


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## katashatzu (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks everyone. Sunny is actually taking it pretty well. She was calling for him last night for a while, but eventually stopped. Shes been extremely talkative today, which is unusual for her. Not flock calls, just singing. Nice to hear her doing that... he was the only one who ever did that before. I got her a few new toys for the cage, and moved stuff around a bit, to give her a fresh start. She seems to be enjoying her new toy. Miss my boy, but I know I did the right thing.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Glad to hear Sunny is doing well.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I had finished giving you advice when I realized you had put him down. I do know how you feel though, I lost Ava a little over a month ago and it sometimes still hits me when I think of her. I'm glad Sunny is doing well. Have you thought of getting her another companion? If she's happy and singing then it isn't necessary but it might fill a little part of the space in your heart that you had for Greyie.

Ava's cagemate, Kirk, knew something wasn't right when we loaded up Ava to take her to the ER. When we didn't come back home with her he was absolutely devastated. He stopped singing and stopped running around his cage (he did just follow Ava around though, he had no mind of his own once he had met her)...he just started sitting in front of his mirror like there was nothing else to do. So we have gotten him another cagemate, he just hasn't met her/him yet because of the quarantine period. Kirk has started to be himself again in this past week just singing a little...but I still think the new bird will change his mood when we get them together in December.


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