# 3 day old chicks crop doesn't appear to be emptying



## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

3 day old baby crop appears to still have food on the crops my suggestions? He's eating every 2 hours and was 2.7 grams when born and only 6 grams today I'll try to get a picture later


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Sounds like he's gaining weight....what makes you think its not emptying? I never catch my parent fed babies with empty crops but if you think its an issue you could try the alkaseltzer method (feeding him like two/10th of a CC, I think, but only letting him digest a little of it, then pushing out the rest.)


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

No I've got him in a brooder since my female wasn't feeding him his crop was empty everytime I checked him I had to pull her last clutch and the reason why I think is because my husband was going to feed him and told me when his hand hit his crop formula came up (2 hours after being feed?) he didn't hurt the baby but then I started to look at his crop (he eats just at 1/2 ml a feeding every 2 hours


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

*Crop Pictures*

Ok first 2 pictures are of baby Before feeding (2 hours) last shot is baby after feeding he had 5ML and I stopped him at that because he probably would've had more any ideas or am I just being paraniod?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The crop looks like it is overstretched, and some red veins are showing which *might be* an alert to a yeast problem developing.

The little one will have to be fed less, and more often....with a pinch of garlic powder, and a little yogurt added to each feeding.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok thank you I'm feeding him every 2 hours right now Ill start adding garlic and yogurt how much yogurt (I had my husband pick up a container of plain today just Incase) thanks susanne


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

When you mix up your formula have the yogurt at approx just a little under 1/4 of the mix. And a quick dash of garlic powder.

When handfeeding just a single baby, with little waste of formula, you can do this (click for a large view)

another thought, the brooder should have allot of humidity in it when they are that young. It is important for good hydration. If humidity is low use coconut water as the fluid to mix the formula. It is better than electrolytes for hydration.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Humidity is running at average 49-52 i keep a bowl with a sponge in it the temperture of the brooder is maintaining at about 91 in an aquarium tank with a heat pad and a reptile pad to keep it at that any suggestions? I have a heatlamp but I don't want to have the wrong size wattage for him and overheat him any suggestions or is the temperature ok?


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

He has a small stuffed animal in with him too


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

It sound like your setup is good. You just might want to increase the temps to 95-98 degrees since the baby is so little. This way the baby does not have to use it's body reserves to stay warm rather than growth. The warmth is especially important after you feed because the crop can chill down quickly if there is not enough heat. Chilling of the crop can also slow down digestion.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Susanne do you know what the correct wattage is for heat lamps I don't want to get one that is to hot I have a 60watt and with the reptile heating pad, my heating pad and the heatlamP on it actually brings it up 4-5 degrees but if that's to hot I don't want to hurt him. I also keep the tank covered with a blanket nice and dark


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

One that would be safe to keep running for him what watt? And what style brand?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

When it comes to any type of bulb I try and stick to the 25 to 40 watt bulbs. Try and use either the red or blue bulbs, which you can find at Home Depot. it's less harsh on the eyes.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok thank you!


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

My husband said we had a 50w infrared heat lamp red bulb if this is safe I'll try that.. I can keep it on and feel safe that it won't hurt him of course it's not going to be directly on him


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If you use it have a thermometer inside the brooder to keep track of the temps. The MAX temp would be 104 without problems because the parents body temps are 104, thus a baby would acclimate to that. If this little one has not been under a parent after hatch then the MAX temp should be around 100.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

I have a stand up temp/humidity I keep right next to him thank you o much you are a life saver how long should I continue the yogurt and garlic powder and instead of every 2 hours is 1 1/2 good or 1 every hour?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I would continue with the garlic and yogurt in each feeding until you see that the red veins showing on the crop are not as visible. As long as they are visible they can absorb and bacteria/yeast if any is in the crop.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I believe you can feed it to him the whole time you feed him (I know with the garlic you can do this) and the yogurt I think the timeframe is a week, but srtiels will confirm that.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Thank you, what would we all do if you guys all of you didn't help! You guys are Angels!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thanks, and what would we do without *you* and all the other wonderful members? Together we help each other and share and learn.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Susanne ok so no weight gain  6 grams and today he's 4 days old any suggestions? Or just keep doing what I'm doing? His crop still appears to be stretched like but I continue with the yogurt and garlic and instead of 1/2ml he's he's getting 2-3ml every 1hour yawn lol sleep is so overrated anyways! He seems eager to eat and happy as anything too! I'm at work so husband is on baby duty lol


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Oops meant .2-.3ml


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

angelmommy24 said:


> Oops meant .2-.3ml


--------------------------------

LOL....I'm glad you posted the above because I was just going to ask if that was right 

Ok....what is the thickness of the formula? If weight gain is slow, you might want to gradually thicken it up a little more with each feeding to see how the little one does digesting it.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok susanne now I need your help again because I'm a worry wort so I noticed when I feed him it's very slow to go down but them after I feed him there is no movement ? In his crop like does this make sense? My husband and I both watched him and ima bout to post pictures his poor crop


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If the crop is overstretched the food is going to be lower than the entryway into the digestive. With a baby that size you would have to use a thin strip of paper self adhesive tape and fashion a crop bra to lift up the crop so that it can digest better.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

*new pictures today*

First shot is before just 1 hour 35 minutes after 2.5ML thickness of baby applesauce  so sad- after is when my husband fed him .3 ML  after shot is the 2nd picture


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yikes, the intestines are still dark. Could be dehydration, but also slow movement and harmful bacteria building up. You will have to go to plan B, which is first emptying the crop....then *carefully* handfeed either Alka-Seltzer water *or* if you have baking soda, mix it with some warm water and feed .3cc. This will help to flush out the digestive tract. This page has some helpful info: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html

You will also have to fashion some type of crop bra to lift up the stretched crop tissue. Feed 1/2 the amount you have been per feeding, and you might want to add the Spice Remedy in the link to the formula.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Yikes, the intestines are still dark. Could be dehydration, but also slow movement and harmful bacteria building up. You will have to go to plan B, which is first emptying the crop....then *carefully* handfeed either Alka-Seltzer water *or* if you have baking soda, mix it with some warm water and feed .3cc. This will help to flush out the digestive tract. This page has some helpful info: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html
> 
> You will also have to fashion some type of crop bra to lift up the stretched crop tissue. Feed 1/2 the amount you have been per feeding, and you might want to add the Spice Remedy in the link to the formula.


I noticed the intestines also in the picture any ideas as to how this happens? How do I empty his crop?...  will he be ok?? what causes the intestines to be so dark?? Any suggestions as to how or what to use to do the crop bra to lift up the stretched crop tissue?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

The intestines can be dark due to two things...dehydration or build up of the good bacteria in the intestines. To empty him you're going to have to turn him upside down and very carefully push the contents out of his crop. It can be nerve wracking. Since he's so small, she recommended using paper adhesive tape to hold it up (about four posts up.) Good luck!


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

roxy culver said:


> The intestines can be dark due to two things...dehydration or build up of the good bacteria in the intestines. To empty him you're going to have to turn him upside down and very carefully push the contents out of his crop. It can be nerve wracking. Since he's so small, she recommended using paper adhesive tape to hold it up (about four posts up.) Good luck!


Yikes ok... I'm at work.. I sent my husband the link she posted to look at and will stop at the store and try to update late so he will need to wear this bra for how long? or once he has it on do I need to change it sounds silly but I want to be prepared


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I couldn't find the time period on her site, but I think as long as it doesn't get dirty you should need to change it. But, he's not very big so you wont need to use a lot of adhesive tape.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*How do I empty his crop?*

I usually use a tube to suck the formula out. Or you can do the following Carefully. But if you do not have a tube, what the first vet I went to showed me was to hold the baby with the head facing downwards, and gently massage the food up the neck forcing it to vomit it out. Have a dampened Q-tip on hand. When you upright the baby, the Q-tip can be used to remove any excess on/in the mouth. This is nerve-wracking and you will be shaking/trembling after doing this.

*Any suggestions as to how or what to use to do the crop bra *

Start with an empty crop. With a baby that size you would have to use a thin strip of paper self adhesive tape ( found near the band-aids in a store)and fashion a crop bra to lift up the crop so that it can digest better. OR you can use a band-aid. Cut a regular sized band-aid in half....lengthwise to make a long strip. Position the pad under the crop, and the strip ends will go behind the neck (upper back)

The dark intestine may have been there all along, especially if the chick was dehydrated. The Alka-Seltzer (or baking soda) will help to flush this out of the intestines.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

You guys are the best my nerves are shot right now I'm so worried for him but you guys are Angels! Calling my husband Susanne you don't happen to have a link to te emptying of the crop do you when you say tube what kind of tube do you mean? I can try to get one


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Also Susanne what causes the crop to be stretched like this? I just got off the phone with my husband and he will be emptying the crop phew because I'm not sure my nerves and stomach could handle it should I also continue with the yogurt too?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I have been using these tubes for feeding. The 2.2mm is great for day 1 to 10 days old and the 3.2mm is great to crop feed to weaning. But the tubes can also be used to suck out a crop if it just has formula (no seeds) in it. https://www.innovetpet.com/aps3.php#a1


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*what causes the crop to be stretched like this?*

When food sits in the crop due to slow digestion it can get soured and very acidic. Then the pH changes in the crop and this can affect the tissue.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

srtiels said:


> *what causes the crop to be stretched like this?*
> 
> When food sits in the crop due to slow digestion it can get soured and very acidic. Then the pH changes in the crop and this can affect the tissue.


Ok thank you~


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

srtiels said:


> I have been using these tubes for feeding. The 2.2mm is great for day 1 to 10 days old and the 3.2mm is great to crop feed to weaning. But the tubes can also be used to suck out a crop if it just has formula (no seeds) in it. https://www.innovetpet.com/aps3.php#a1


Susanne, I have these 1 CC Syringes I got from my local tractor supply store I wonder if they'll have the tubes there?? I'm going to check!


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

angelmommy24 said:


> Susanne, I have these 1 CC Syringes I got from my local tractor supply store I wonder if they'll have the tubes there?? I'm going to check!


Btw I love these syringes I feel like it's easier to feed the baby so tiny!


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

*Last question!*



srtiels said:


> *what causes the crop to be stretched like this?*
> 
> When food sits in the crop due to slow digestion it can get soured and very acidic. Then the pH changes in the crop and this can affect the tissue.


Final question.. sorry! Should I continue with the Yogurt Garlic mixture too?? I don't want to mess up so I want to make sure I get it all right what should I be giving him now?


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

This is what I did with a baby experiencing the same issue. Sorry to go against the grain here a little...and people might disagree with my methods, but they worked. First feeding in the morning, put a solution of warm water and vinegar in the crop. I would say about a 75% to 25% ratio. This should help loosen up the yeast (yes, that's yeast keeping the crop full). After about 20 minutes, feed the baby a very watery formula mix with a spice concoction of garlic powder, cinnamon, and ginger. 2 tsp of garlic powder, 1/2 tsp each of cinnamon and ginger will make enough to last the duration of the illness, or should anyway. The red veins are a sure indication of bacteria. I get antibiotics from the tractor supply Tetracycline or Duramycin (you will find this categorized as chicken antibiotic, but it's used in parrots for many purposes)....this I mix with water and a little formula in the last feeding of the day. 

That takes care of all three issues. The vinegar and water will take care of the yeast, the spices will take care of crop movement, and the antibiotics will take care of the bacterial infection. If you are uncomfortable administering antibiotics, then you may want to take the little guy to a vet. 

In between your doses, remember, vinegar water first thing, wait twenty minutes, then a dose of spices (just a pinch in the watery formula), watch for movement by checking elimination, feed as often as you can through the day (making sure the crop is empty each feeding...when he's healthy you can feed more often), and the last dose at night the antibiotics.

If you have any questions, I will be happy to answer.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

And yes, you can add yogurt with the spices and formula mixture, or with other feedings through the day.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> The vinegar and water will take care of the yeast,


Apple cidar vinegar is what's been recommended to me to use for this, what do you use?


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Apple cider vinegar, prefer the type with mother that you can get at health food stores. I believe Target also carries it and some grocery stores do. The popular brand is Braggs. The mother has added minerals and amino acids. The biggest benefit to the chick though is that it creates a negative environment for bad bacteria and yeast.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

So by using the vinegar there is no need to flush out the crop? What happens to the yeasty stuff in the crop then ? Thank you, this is very interesting.
Angelmommy, hope baby is doing better.


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## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

jellybean said:


> So by using the vinegar there is no need to flush out the crop? What happens to the yeasty stuff in the crop then ? Thank you, this is very interesting.
> Angelmommy, hope baby is doing better.


Sometimes it's best to flush the crop anyway depending on the severity of the infection and how many blood veins visible. Sometimes the ACV is enough if the infection is not advanced enough, it all depends on how bad the baby is.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Mentha is right, fortunately, I have never had to flush a crop. I try the acv remedy for three days...there has always been a response to it. As for where the yeast goes, it dies, lets go of the crop wall, and is flushed out of the body. Which is OK, because it has been killed, and isn't infecting the rest of the body. Systemic infection occurs when the yeast is left without treatment. Prognosis for these babies is poor, although not impossible.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Cryren8972 said:


> Mentha is right, fortunately, I have never had to flush a crop. I try the acv remedy for three days...there has always been a response to it. As for where the yeast goes, it dies, lets go of the crop wall, and is flushed out of the body. Which is OK, because it has been killed, and isn't infecting the rest of the body. Systemic infection occurs when the yeast is left without treatment. Prognosis for these babies is poor, although not impossible.


I want to thank everyone for all your advice Unfortenetly I lost this little guy a few hours after having to empty is crop  the only positive is that I've got some great information and know now what to be on the lookout for and how this can be treated early on


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## delawaregirl (Dec 2, 2011)

So sorry. I know you tried very hard and did your very best. RIP little one.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*I try the acv remedy for three days...*
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ACV has it's purposes of changing the pH in the crop and intestinal tract, but after treatment the bird also has to be given probiotics to balance the pH. But the other downside, is this little one had an overstretched crop and the use of ACV in excess of 1 diluted drop can also impair the crop tissues from shrinking.

Shown is below is some yeast. First it starts as small white specks adhered to the inside of the crop wall. As it grows and spreads it can coat the inside crop wall, and thicken it (2nd pix) to the point that the entire inside of the crop may be a mass of yeast. The red veins are a danger sign, because they are swollen and they can absorb pathogens/bacteria and yeast into the blood stream. The ACV will help to kill and release the yeast from the crop wall. If it is excessive in buildup it is wise to empty and flush the crop, repeat if needed prior to each feeding until the skin feels thinner between the fingertips, and when emptying the crop you no longer see chunks/flakes of yeast like the 3rd. pix.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

While it's true that ACV can inhibit the shrinking of an overstretched crop...I have rarely seen a truly overstretched crop. You have to observe the crop empty to know if it's truly stretched. The crop wasn't emptying due to the yeast build up. I could be wrong, but the pictures I saw didn't alarm me as having an overstretched crop.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Cyyren....she sent me pix to my email and the crop was overstretched.

If you have not seen an overstretched crop this album has a few examples: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/Babies%20in%20Trouble/


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

I am really not trying to start a war here. The pictures you just linked in ARE of babies with overstretched crops. However, they don't look anything like the pictures she posted. I said I had rarely seen an overstretched crop...and that is because it rarely happens. I don't recommend the ACV remedy to a chick displaying an overstretched crop.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm not sure if this link will post this way, but I will try. Using the examples you linked, this is an overstretched crop. Notice that the crop is empty at the top, and unable to empty at the bottom due to stretching: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/...ion=view&current=Over-stretched-sour-crop.jpg


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*However, they don't look anything like the pictures she posted.*
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I can understand your confusion. No the pix's in the thread do not show an overstreched crop, but they do show a problem is starting which needed to be addressed. Pix's not on the forum are below, which was sent by email for me to look at. there was one other other one that shows the crop empty with patches of yeast build-up but was too out of focus to include below. If you look at the first pix the wet stringy down can be a sign that there is a yeast problem.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

OK, now I'm up to speed. A little too late for this baby though =( I wish I could have helped more.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Your input and help have been very welcome. I hope to see you around and posting  Since the Angelmommy has not did an update I am worried that the little one is not doing well or made it


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Your input and help have been very welcome. I hope to see you around and posting  Since the Angelmommy has not did an update I am worried that the little one is not doing well or made it


Susanne I'm sorry I thought I posted the other day but did post this morning the baby didn't make it  I have learned so much from you guys you will never know how much I appreciate it


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

((((HUGS)))) With the degree of yeast the little one had the crop it may have already absorbed yeast/bacteria into the bloodstream before discovering it had to be treated, killed and removed from the crop. As to yourself you and your husband did an awesome job  Fly free little one....


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

srtiels said:


> ((((HUGS)))) With the degree of yeast the little one had the crop it may have already absorbed yeast/bacteria into the bloodstream before discovering it had to be treated, killed and removed from the crop. As to yourself you and your husband did an awesome job  Fly free little one....


Thank you my husband broke down in tears he thought he did something wrong and I just had to let him know that he was weak and the extent of the yeast was so bad


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

(((HUGS)))) Awww, your husband sounds like a real sweetie. Tell him he did good regardless of the outcome.


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## angelmommy24 (Nov 20, 2011)

Dreamcatchers said:


> (((HUGS)))) Awww, your husband sounds like a real sweetie. Tell him he did good regardless of the outcome.


When I got my first pair of tiels he said he wouldn't have any part of them .. Slowly I saw him warming up and holding them he did my first assist hatch learned how to hand feed and has continues full force with my Cockateils he built our aviary for my adopted tiels, he cleans the aviary and gives them all there seeds, veggies, fruit, millet and other treats he was the one when I had a hawk coming at the aviary stayed outside until the hawk left he holds our babies inside and is always thinking of new things he can do to give the tiels more toys etc he loves them as much as I do and I'm proud to say my children all feel the same.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Give him a huge big huge from ALL of us  He is a jewel, and you and your birds are very blessed to have him.


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