# Breeding



## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

Hello im hoping you can help me with something I was told that I cannot breed cockatiel from the same mutation for example a lutino male and a lutino female, so I looked for another mutation and I found a pearl female if I breed the lutino male with the pearl female wich mutations will have the babies? 

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## Dylan&Gracie (Nov 21, 2014)

You can breed mutation to mutation, just don't breed family members. It's the most direct way to get more of a mutation. If you breed a pearl and a lutino and neither bird is split for the other birds' mutation, every baby will be normal grey. The males (I think?) will be spit to both mutations though, and they can then be bred to either lutinos or pearls, or a lutino pearl, and produce mutation offspring.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Breeding Lutino to Lutino can create weak feathering and bald spots. Breeding pearl to Pearl can create small body cavity and interfere with internal organs.

If you breed a Lutino male to a pearl female and neither is split to other mutations you will get

Female Lutinos
Males split to pearl
Males split to Lutino
Males split to both mutations 
Normal grey of both genders.



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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

SilverSage said:


> Breeding Lutino to Lutino can create weak feathering and bald spots. Breeding pearl to Pearl can create small body cavity and interfere with internal organs.
> 
> If you breed a Lutino male to a pearl female and neither is split to other mutations you will get
> 
> ...


One thing to be clear I live in Venezuela and here we got the lutino cockatiel that is the one that have red eyes and claws and we have the yellow cockatiel that have normal black eyes... The one I have both of them are yellow cockatiels its the same with them right?


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Yellow with red eyes is Lutino, yellow with black eyes is clear pied; I'm having a hard time understanding which one you have?


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

SilverSage said:


> Yellow with red eyes is Lutino, yellow with black eyes is clear pied; I'm having a hard time understanding which one you have?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Im so sorry I didn't know the name of the mutation in English and I just call them lutinos, I have 2 clear pied cockatiels a male and a female


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

As far as I know, there is no danger in breeding pied to pied, but I could be wrong.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

SilverSage said:


> As far as I know, there is no danger in breeding pied to pied, but I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Would you recommend it??


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

I would suggest waiting for more answers here. I can look into it but I'm
Not able to at this moment.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

SilverSage said:


> I would suggest waiting for more answers here. I can look into it but I'm
> Not able to at this moment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I really apreciate all the help thank you very very much!! I will Continue searching now I know the exact name of my cockatiel mutation 👍


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

It is also called "dark eyed clear" basically it's just a pied that is SO HEAVILY MARKED that it has no dark spots.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Pictures would help us determine the mutations of your birds. Lutinos can have other eye colors based on what they are split to. http://www.justcockatiels.net/lutino.html Susanne has more info on her website.

To be honest, I would not breed to of the same mutations to each other. There is no need for this and all it does is create weaker babies. The goal of breeding should be to create stronger babies. Also, if you breed a male lutino to any other mutation, ALL girls will be lutino, as they only get one gene from dad and that's the lutino gene and in hens they only require the one gene to be visual. I'd definitely go with the lutino to pearl combo. Save the other bird to breed to one of their babies in two years.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

roxy culver said:


> Pictures would help us determine the mutations of your birds. Lutinos can have other eye colors based on what they are split to. http://www.justcockatiels.net/lutino.html Susanne has more info on her website.
> 
> To be honest, I would not breed to of the same mutations to each other. There is no need for this and all it does is create weaker babies. The goal of breeding should be to create stronger babies. Also, if you breed a male lutino to any other mutation, ALL girls will be lutino, as they only get one gene from dad and that's the lutino gene and in hens they only require the one gene to be visual. I'd definitely go with the lutino to pearl combo. Save the other bird to breed to one of their babies in two years.


I was mistaken when I told the cockatiels mutation the ones I have are clear pied not lutinos (both male and female)


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

roxy culver said:


> Pictures would help us determine the mutations of your birds. Lutinos can have other eye colors based on what they are split to. http://www.justcockatiels.net/lutino.html Susanne has more info on her website.
> 
> To be honest, I would not breed to of the same mutations to each other. There is no need for this and all it does is create weaker babies. The goal of breeding should be to create stronger babies. Also, if you breed a male lutino to any other mutation, ALL girls will be lutino, as they only get one gene from dad and that's the lutino gene and in hens they only require the one gene to be visual. I'd definitely go with the lutino to pearl combo. Save the other bird to breed to one of their babies in two years.




It is true that eye color varies depending on splits and other mutations, however you will note when reading the article listed above that they basically vary from "ruby" to "jelly-bean pink." Both of these are essentially red, not black.

In addition, no, visual sex linked fathers DO NOT always produce daughters which are visually the same mutation. I have absolute proof of this in my own flock where a cinnamon male has produced DNA sexed non-cinnamon daughters. I have observed this in the flocks of my friends as well. Based on research I also believed that the sex linked mutations were passed down 100% to the daughters, until I got a non-cinnamon daughter from a cinnamon father and had to refund the fee for a bird I had guaranteed as male based on this idea. I'm not sure WHY it's possible, but it is.

As for pied to pied breeding creating weaker babies, that is why I said I would look into it farther. I hear people claim that breeding same mutation birds weakens the babies, and in some mutations, such as pearl and ino, we see specific examples of this (baldness and short body cavity), however I don't know if this holds true in pied, and I'm hesitant to say it does without at least finding an article explaining it. In fact, it is the web site listed above that I intend to search this evening on the topic.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=28818 This is a better diagram taken from Susanne explaining lutino eye color. While I know clear pied is a thing, it's a lot rarer and we've never actually had anyone that I know of have one. That's why I asked for pictures, because it can be mistaken for one or the other. 



> In addition, no, visual sex linked fathers DO NOT always produce daughters which are visually the same mutation. I have absolute proof of this in my own flock where a cinnamon male has produced DNA sexed non-cinnamon daughters. I have observed this in the flocks of my friends as well. Based on research I also believed that the sex linked mutations were passed down 100% to the daughters, until I got a non-cinnamon daughter from a cinnamon father and had to refund the fee for a bird I had guaranteed as male based on this idea. I'm not sure WHY it's possible, but it is.


http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=26845 Your hen may have cheated on your male. It's actually quite common in tiels as they are not monogomas. Seeing as you are the first person I've ever met to say that a sex-linked mutation male doesn't produce a visual daughter, I'm going to continue to go with the experts. In my own flock when I was breeding, I ALWAYS got a visual hen from a sex-linked mutation father. ALWAYS. My male cinnamon gave me cinnamon hens and normal boys. My pearl male gave me pearl girls. It's all about how the genes are inherited. Now, if a male is split to the mutation, he can end up with normal girls and this is where cheating comes in. The link I posted is to a very long and thought out post done by tielfan, who has also done exhaustive studies in breeding her own flock. I believe she even goes into crossovers, which is EVEN more complicated (I still struggle to understand the crossover part, even though I did have it happen in my own flock.) 

I still would NOT breed pied to pied. Regardless of how strong or big the birds are. This is a personal preference as I have had bad luck breeding like to like before thinking "O mom is a big, healthy girl, these babies will be fine." The absolute BEST idea is breeding a like to a split. And if the split is pied (i.e. breeding a lutino to a pied split lutino) that's even better because the pied will make the crest on the lutino stronger. In this case, I would still breed the clear pied to the pearl, because the pied will increase the strength of the pearl's crest, which is very desirable. Pearl isn't as bad as lutino in terms of bald spots but it does happen and it is a problem in the pearl mutation that breeders are trying to correct.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

That is a VERY helpful diagram; thank you.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

As for the hen cheating, it isn't possible in my flock since they were paired separately and never mixed. The only other option (which is entirely possible) is a mistake in mutation identification of the father. Unfortunately I no longer have him or any of his offspring. Upon finding his non-cinnamon offspring to be female, I called my friend who is actually a personal friend of Susanne and has been breeding for 30 years, and she told me that they do not always inherit and I shouldn't be shocked. However I'm very aware that although I study hard and really DO care to be sure my info is correct, two things are true; 1) I have only been doing this a few years, and 2) my mentors and other sources of info can be wrong. 


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

http://redirect.viglink.com/?format...atheredbuddies.com/images/info/sexlinked4.jpg but here does show that you can pair same mutation cockatiels.... soo I guest its okay?


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Tables like that only have to do with what color you will get, not which pairings will produce strong and healthy offspring.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Yea that's not actually saying it's OK, it's just saying what offspring you'll get.

Honestly, because clear pied is super rare, a friend mentioned last night when I was telling her about this that there is a huge possibility that your two birds are related. That's just how rare that mutation is. Because of that possibility alone, I wouldn't breed the two together. I would definitely breed to the pearl instead. Do you know for sure if you have a male/female pair?



> 1) I have only been doing this a few years, and 2) my mentors and other sources of info can be wrong.


I hear ya! It's a learning experience, and we are learning new things every day. Considering how new a lot of these mutations are, you never know what will crop up next!


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

That is actually an excellent point which I forgot all about this time! I have only ever come across one clear pied but I know several breeders who have been trying for years to achieve it.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> That is actually an excellent point which I forgot all about this time! I have only ever come across one clear pied but I know several breeders who have been trying for years to achieve it.


Same here!! I think I've only ever seen one, so my worry would be that the two were related, especially if in the same area. And breeding siblings can mean no babies survive the nest at all.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

roxy culver said:


> Yea that's not actually saying it's OK, it's just saying what offspring you'll get.
> 
> Honestly, because clear pied is super rare, a friend mentioned last night when I was telling her about this that there is a huge possibility that your two birds are related. That's just how rare that mutation is. Because of that possibility alone, I wouldn't breed the two together. I would definitely breed to the pearl instead. Do you know for sure if you have a male/female pair?
> 
> ...


Well actually I was suspecting that my cockatiels where related but I made a choice I will just buy 2 new cockatiels and so both of my clear pied will have a diferent Mate


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

That sounds like the wisest plan. We would still love to see pictures though 


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I agree!! That's sounds like a great idea!! Can't wait to see what you get!


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)




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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

On the left is the male Apolo and the one in the right the female is Athena hope you like them


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

Its verry funny tho I always suspected that they where related, the way the act with each other, and the male has just whistle like a couple.of times in months, and every time I whistle the male enters in some kind of mating mode its verry funny but she dont want anything to do with him im that way.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

SilverSage said:


> That sounds like the wisest plan. We would still love to see pictures though
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here is the picture


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

They are gorgeous!! I'm just not good enough at identifying the difference between a lutino and a clear pied. And they've never laid eggs or anything?

I'd breed Apollo first. That way you can for sure determine mutation. If he's a lutino, he will have lutino daughters. If he's a clear pied, he will have daughters of other mutations. Any idea what other mutations you want to breed them with?


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

roxy culver said:


> They are gorgeous!! I'm just not good enough at identifying the difference between a lutino and a clear pied. And they've never laid eggs or anything?
> 
> I'd breed Apollo first. That way you can for sure determine mutation. If he's a lutino, he will have lutino daughters. If he's a clear pied, he will have daughters of other mutations. Any idea what other mutations you want to breed them with?


Well I was hopping that you guys coukd help me selecting a good mutation to mate with my cockatiels


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Split to pied is pretty easy to fine, most birds these days are split to pied. I would say for your male, find a nice big pearl hen, maybe a whiteface, split to pied and breed them. This will give you babies with more splits (i.e. the pearl split) which you can use for later breeding. I'm impartial to pearls, they're my favorite, so that's usually my go to for breeding. 

I would avoid cinnamon. If the birds do end up being lutino, cinnamon and lutino don't react well together and is not something I generally have seen recommended to breed together.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

I was also going to suggest a white face pearl hen, as that is my favorite mutation. However really any mutation is fine, depending on what you want to produce. I'm a big fan of huge feathery crests and breed for that and temperament in my small flock. Because the birds o raise become pets rather than aviary birds, I would rather have a sweet and smart normal gray than a rude or standoffish bird of a more striking color. In fact I think I might have TRUE GRAYS in my nest right now, which is actually something of a feat, believe it or not 


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> In fact I think I might have TRUE GRAYS in my nest right now, which is actually something of a feat, believe it or not


You mean the most rare mutation ever because literally everything is split to something these days! That's awesome!! 

Haha wf cinnamon pearl is my absolute favorite mutation. My cinnamon was one and she was my cuddle bug baby. Good breeder too, that bird wanted to be a mama lol. Big crests are a BIG aim...for that I'd definitely want a bird split to pied and there are TONS of ways to tell if a bird is split to pied or not.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

SilverSage said:


> I was also going to suggest a white face pearl hen, as that is my favorite mutation. However really any mutation is fine, depending on what you want to produce. I'm a big fan of huge feathery crests and breed for that and temperament in my small flock. Because the birds o raise become pets rather than aviary birds, I would rather have a sweet and smart normal gray than a rude or standoffish bird of a more striking color. In fact I think I might have TRUE GRAYS in my nest right now, which is actually something of a feat, believe it or not
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

Thats apollos new partner


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

She's pretty!!!


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Love her!!


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Just a note; please be sure to practice safe quarantine 


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Just a note; please be sure to practice safe quarantine


I second this and can't stress it enough. Super important.


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## DanielMein (Oct 31, 2016)

roxy culver said:


> I second this and can't stress it enough. Super important.


What do you mean with quarantine??


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=10824 this sticky explains it really well!

Quarantine is important to protect the health of your current birds. You don't want to bring in a sick bird and get your other birds sick. A vet check usually clears a bird and it can be added to the flock, but some illnesses can't be detected right away or with just one vet visit.


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