# The Painstaking Weaning Process.....



## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

Hello I'm new to the forum, and I've enjoyed helping others with things that I have the knowledge to answer, but I have a question for someone with a little more knowledge and wisdom than I.

I have a cockatiel, pretty sure from her behavior/body size that she is a female. I havent found the perfect name yet!!

Anyway, When I got her from this pet store who knew just about nothing about birds, they told me she was weaned, ie; cracking sunflower seeds.

I visited her twice in the store before I purchased her, both times she was alseep. She had nothing but a perch and some untouched seeds in her cage. Her buddy that she was bonded with had been sold. And she was lonely, sad, depressed and I didnt realize, hungry! 

I was visiting the area pet shops since there are no local breeders, my options to buy from a breeder would mean I was purchasing a bird I never interacted with and have it shipped to me. and I wasnt liking that idea. 

Anyway, after careful consideration I chose to adopt this sleepy bird and bring her home. Come to find out she wasnt weaned, and she was nearly starved to death when I got her about 2 weeks ago. I thought she was sick, and nearly returned her for a healtier replacement, but after 3-4 days of tender loving care, and good food, she started becoming much more alive and active. She wasnt sick.. she had gone straight from handfeeding to being thrown a cup full of seeds that she had no idea what to do with. Her nutrients were essentially zapped. And I'm so glad that I decided to keep her, I was in love with her of course by that point anyway, so returning her was not an option. Idiots like this shouldnt be allowed to sell birds... I really feel if I had not adopted her (She was fully priced at $89.99) she would have died.

The food I have her on now is roudybush pellets, but the petstore near me didnt carry the high energy breeder formula for the just weaned birds, so I am giving her eggs to fill the extra protein needs until my shipment arrives which should be today of the crumbled roudybush, and the high energy breeder crumbles.

When I first brought her home, under the impression that she was weaned. I had no trouble feeding her pellets by hand. But after 2 days, she was eating less pellets and begging near constantly. So I went and got her some formula (Kaytee-Exact) She has since been eating 3 feedings a day, morning, afternoon and before bed. 

She has gotten to where she will refuse the pellets altogether and just steady beg for formula. But if I wait about 15 minutes with the pellets and her in my hand she will eventually give in and eat about a tablespoon. But then continue to beg, and I will give her formula she eats about 2-3 cc's of that. and sometimes eggs too! all within about an hour, not all at once. 

She refuses to go and eat out of her bowl, I do leave the cage open during the day, sometimes she'll hop down and come find me where I am, it's SO CUTE. And put the cups outside the cage where she normally is and inside with her at night. She will go and drink water, but the pellets are untouched.

But if I spread the pellets out on newspaper on the floor of the cage, I hear her hop down onto the paper and eat pellets, so she is beginning to forage. I of course dont know her exact age, but judging by the length of her tail and the fact that she is fully feathered, i'm guessing she was at least 10 weeks old when I got her and I've had her now for just over 2 weeks, so that would put her around 13 weeks. But she might have only been 10 weeks when I got her, I've seen pictures of 8 week old birds, and they have very short tails. Her's is long though she is a tiny thing.. I hope the lack of nutrients didnt stunt her growth, my mom got a cockatiel also after hearing all my bird stories, hers still has a few pin feathers on it's crest, and is twice the size of my bird almost.

Realizing you cant force a bird to wean, I'm afraid that I'm spoiling her and she will decide she likes the hand treatment better than going and eating those dry pellets out of her dish. And she'll never be weaned. So at this point I think I need a little advice.

She eats every 4 hours (8, 12, 4, 8) I do not give her hand feeding at 4:00 though she still acts hungry until her before bed feeding she will finally settle down and watch tv with us after eating some pellets or eggs or a sunflower seed or two.

I always make sure to give her pellets first, even in the morning, (I have eliminated all seeds from her diet as they are just fatty and hardly have any nutrition.) but that's never enough, but these pellets are for fully grown birds, and dont have the nutrition a baby bird needs, hence the eggs. So I'm afraid to stop hand feeding her until I'm sure that she's getting the right foods. I hope my delivery from roudybush comes today it's been a week since I ordered it online!

So what do I do? Should I just offer her pellets only by now? stop the hand feeding? She will eat them, but I have to hold them in my hand, and she will enjoy throwing them about and eating them too. I usually have to offer her one or two pieces first before she will start pecking at them on her own. but by the end I have a hand full of dust and just a few pellets left. 

But I am worried that she's not eating on her own. Her weight is fine, she sleeps 8pm to 8am every day. I'm currently unemployed and outside of my daughter have the entire day to devote to her care and well being.

She is very spoiled and the idiots clipped her wings before she learned to fly, and so now she will not fly either. I have started doing wing exercises with her every day and she's getting stronger and starting to test her wings more when hopping about the room from place to place. How do I do that you ask? Well, I put her on my finger up high and slowly bring her down and tell her "fly" she will flap her wings and I will kiss her and tell her good bird. She's getting better, and wont do it on command yet it's probably more instinct than anything, either way she's getting a good workout, we do this for about 10 minutes each day.

I have also all but eliminated millet from her diet I give that and 1-2 sunflower seeds as a treat or reward only. She was making begging noises when I first got her while eating millet which told me she was starving to death. Hence this very painstaking process to rewean, or more than likely wean her in the first place.

I heard millet had nearly no nutritional value and was mostly fat but good for energy so I do still give it to her but I dont leave it hanging in the cage all day or she would just keep eating that and nothing else.

So. Advice! Sorry this is so long... lol. 
How do you guys go about weaning your birds naturally, not forced, when do you know it's the right time to start skipping a hand feeding?
Will she ever eat on her own or will I be forever catering to my bird... 

This little bird is definitely a gift, and she is a joy to have as the newest member of our family. 

(This should probably be in the subforum, food and nutrition, my apologies for not putting it where it belongs)


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

okay hun, put seed in a shallow dish at the bottom of the cage.

blaming the unweaning on a breeder is wrong unless you have absolute proof that the bird was unweaned, any stressful situations can cause a freshly weaned bird to revert back to wanting to be hand-fed.

if she wasnt weaned onto pellets your basically starting from scratch with those.

until she is eating on her own (no formula) you should not have eliminated the seed, wheter its a fatty food or not that seems to be the food she was weaned on. and when she starts eating more pellets then you can start reducing the seed, dont just take it out and say no more, thats like me taking meat out of your diet with no warning and sayinging you have to live off of fruits and veggies.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

you dont skip a hand-feeding you gradually reduce a feeding.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

so basically your feeding pellets, eggs which is a high protien diet which can lead to kidney failure or death, you should be feeding 2 times a day of formula, offering seed, millet spray, and pellets in shallow dishes kept in cage all day long, feeding to much formula will actually make the babe to full to try other foods.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

you need to stop making assumptions breeders dont clip wings until baby has learned to fly, a clipped bird wont fly, but those feathers grow back.

post a picture of the babe with a good tail shot.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

My mom's birds wings are clipped, he doesnt fly UP but he glides from his cage to the kitchen... to the screen door so he can look out of it to her shoulder while she is in the kitchen.... He still uses his wings to get around even though they are clipped.

If you clip a birds wings before they learn to fly in some cases they may never learn to fly. But in her case, she just may not have had the energy to fly in the first place and her wings maybe have atrophied from not being used for several weeks because of this.

thanks for the replies

I have a shallow dish, she will not touch the food in it, same as her food dish.

I offer her broccoli, apples, applesauce, dried banana's carrots dried and fresh, she wont touch any of it. Even seed in a cup she will not touch. She will eat it out of my hand, but if she's eating her pellets, why would I confuse her by giving her seed? I have a bag of seed I pick out the sunflower seeds and give those as a treat. I want her to live to her full 20+ years, which she will never accomplish on seed alone.

I give her pellets, as I mentioned, before each hand feeding. And she takes only 2cc's of formula at each feeding, after her pellets. Unless I do not offer her other foods first, and straight formula, she will take 6-7 cc's.

She's just weaned, rather, weaning... she should be on a high protein diet, says the vet. Basically she wasnt eating at all for her stay in the pet store. These people didnt even know they needed to hand feed the bird, and it was essentially starving to death when I bought it. I would appreciate responses that actually took the time to read through the entire thing. So that you can see what I'm talking about here, as I did mention all that in my novel up there

So basically I AM weaning her onto pellets. Seeds being full of fat are of course going to be chosen over the pellets if they are offered in the same bowl, that's like offering a child a bowl of veggies for dinner or a plate of candy. Of course they will choose the candy... even if it's not what's best for them.

She will eat the pellets quite happily, but I have to offer her them by hand, or put them on a flat piece of paper in the bottom of her cage and she will pick through them throughout the day, she wont touch them in her food dish or the shallow dish I have in the cage. 

So I gathered that I should be reducing the feedings, and not cutting out any feedings. So should I offer her formula at the 4:00 feeding instead of withholding it? She does want to eat every 4 hours. Static begging pretty much right on time. Even if she has to come find me so she can beg, it's so cute

I read here that if a bird is only taking 2cc's of formula at the feedings, it possible that the bird is just doing it for comfort, and not because it needs it. And I have also read that it is possible to spoil your bird and it will never wean if you continue to hand feed it, so that's why I was asking about the withholding feedings. Will she eventually stop asking for formula after eating the pellets/eggs? I'm worried that I am spoiling her really. 

The pellets have everything nutritionally that she needs, but being that she is so young she could use the extra protein, is why I am offering the eggs at all. I do offer her the whole egg smooshed up (well part of it!), not just the yolk. I basically nursed her back from death, so extra protein is what was recommended to me by the avian vet. So I'm only doing what I thought was right for her. But now that she is a little older, and nutritionally balanced, I dont want to overdo it and spoil her. 

Am I doing the right thing? I should keep the shallow dish there even though she wont touch it in hopes that it clicks finally that it's ok for her to eat out of it. It's like she is comforted by me being close to her while she is eating, she likes eating from my hand unless it's something cold she will normally at least try it even if she doesnt end up eating any.

Without knowing how old she is exactly I only have how much she in consuming and how often she wants to eat to use as a guide. I know that she will wean herself, supposedly.. but will she? eventually get the idea? And eat on her own? Does anyone have experience with this sort of situation?

I will make sure she keeps her shallow dish. And not withhold feedings, but does she even really need it at this point? Who knows.. I know it's extremely messy and I hate having to wash her 4 times a day especially the one at bedtime, I dont want to put her in her cage all wet and cold at night. So I'm trying to fill her up on other things, before I give the formula but she will still beg for it even after eating something else first.

I guess since she is not so starving to death now, I could cut down on the eggs, more like 1-2 times a week instead of every day or every other day.

This is my first baby. Thank you for your advice on this situation!

I will post a pic of her tail for you guys so you can see what you think.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

the bird is gluiding which is normal for a clipped bird, a bird that never learnt to fly will drop like a rock, until the wings grow back stop assuming it cant fly.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

*I offer her broccoli, apples, applesauce, dried banana's carrots dried and fresh, she wont touch any of it. Even seed in a cup she will not touch. She will eat it out of my hand, but if she's eating her pellets, why would I confuse her by giving her seed? I have a bag of seed I pick out the sunflower seeds and give those as a treat. I want her to live to her full 20+ years, which she will never accomplish on seed alone.*

a pellet diet alone will not give her the 20+ years, you need to read up on a true cockatiel diet which is varied and includes seed, pellets and veggies, you dont need fruit.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

*She will eat the pellets quite happily, but I have to offer her them by hand, or put them on a flat piece of paper in the bottom of her cage and she will pick through them throughout the day, she wont touch them in her food dish or the shallow dish I have in the cage. *

okay she may not recognize the food dish as a food dish, my babes are weaned onto 3 different types of food dishes, because every cage has a different layout of were they are or what they are made of (glass, Plastic, Metal)


*So I gathered that I should be reducing the feedings, and not cutting out any feedings. So should I offer her formula at the 4:00 feeding instead of withholding it? She does want to eat every 4 hours. Static begging pretty much right on time. Even if she has to come find me so she can beg, it's so cute*

Her crying could have more to do with her wanting to be handled, and youve conditioned her or him to think that if he crys he gets attention wheter it be food or lovings.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

also breeders dont usually give birds to the store that are not weaned, but if you went to this pet store right now there will be 2 cockatiels, one still with some sparse pin feathers sitting on a perch and begging for food. This in hindsight, was not the best choice of pet stores to make a purchase from. And as I mentioned, they shouldnt be allowed to sell any kind of animal. But I'm glad that I was able to save mine from the clutches of death.

Even they were talking about this new bird they got (I had gone to get a jar of hand feeding formula) They said they phoned the breeder and got onto her for sending them yet another unweaned bird that they dont have the time to hand feed. So I promise you, these are not accusations to make a reputable breeder look bad... moreso a practice to breed and sell off birds merely for as much profit as they can gain in the shortest amount of time, without knowing anything about the birds.

I asked them what type of cockatiel that was they had in the cage, know what they told me? "That's a fancy cockatiel ma'am" ... Not, that's a cinnamon pied cockatiel ma'am. They obviously are oblivious to the care of birds, and I doubt the breeder is looking out for the birds best interest. SO I'd appreciate it very much if your responses were more helpful rather than sounding like you are attacking me. Thank you.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

*before I give the formula but she will still beg for it even after eating something else first.*
the crop is a holding pouch, and until it goes from there into the body they dont even know its there and will cry as if they are starving.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*she should be on a high protein diet, says the vet.*
*---------------------------------------------*

Where are you getting this info. A cockatiel should haveMAX 22% prtien in the diet. As to _*says the vet...*_did you actually take the bird to a vet or is this something you read on the internet?

From your posting I am thinking that most of the info you are getting is off the interenet. I can tell this by what you are quoting as to the diet to offer. Since it contains fruits, applesausce etc...it is NOT a cockatiel specific diet...it IS a parrot or larger bird. Cocatiels ARE seed eaters. Their beaks are designed to crack seed. They should also have a VARIED diet...such as 70-80% seed, the balance pellets, and greens/veggies.

PLEASE post a pix of your bird (full back and side veiws) which would help to determine actual age.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*is so young she could use the extra protein, is why I am offering the eggs at all*
*---------------------------------------------------*

This bird *does not* need the extra protein. It sounds like you are now supplying protein from several sources and this can overall be harmful even fatal.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Check out this link: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=18189

If you are getting formula all over the baby or are not careful in handfeeding there is also a risk of aspiration.

Have you ever handfed prior to this?


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

its true a petstore should not sell birds but obviously your to stupid to realize your causing more harm to this bird and this is were my help ends, i wasnt attacking you i was attacking your assumptions.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*without knowing anything about the birds.*

*I asked them what type of cockatiel that was they had in the cage, know what they told me? "That's a fancy cockatiel ma'am" ... Not, that's a cinnamon pied cockatiel ma'am. They obviously are oblivious to the care of birds, and I doubt the breeder is looking out for the birds best interest. SO I'd appreciate it very much if your responses were more helpful rather than sounding like you are attacking me. Thank you.*
*--------------------------------------------*

First off NWoodrow is not attacking you. Like me her concerns are more for the birds ultimate health and welfare, and it appears that you have been giving or reading info on the interent and mis-interpretating (such as the protein) to your situation.

As to the shop...MOST shops refer to cockatiels as greys or fancies. Fancies is a collective term to mean any bird that is not grey. Greys are normally one price and fanceies are ususally a higher price.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Not, that's a cinnamon pied cockatiel ma'am.*
*-----------------------------------------------*

Is this the bird in your avatar? If so, from the little I can see it is actually a pearl pied. It also looks pretty young.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

nwoodrow said:


> *before I give the formula but she will still beg for it even after eating something else first.*
> 
> the crop is a holding pouch, and until it goes from there into the body they dont even know its there and will cry as if they are starving.


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Yes...it will take a minute or two for the bird to realize that it has been fed because the formula has to travel from the crop thru the ventrivulus and then into the intestines. Once it reaches the intestines, and there is nutrient absorption from the intestines this gives the brain the signal that the bird has eaten.

BUT, if the bird is constantly crying this can also be a sign of a secondary problem such as yeast or bacteria, resulting from the stress this bird has been put thru since it left the store. it might be in the birds best interest to have a vet check-up.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

The comment about the Cinnamon pied was referring to the bird in the store that still has pin feathers up for sale and begging for food. Not my bird. My bird, is yes the bird in the picture. She's a pearl, and I will post pics here shortly, but I keep seeing replies as I reply and getting distracted

Yes, of course I took the bird to the vet rather than take it back to the store. 

The bird was sitting in one spot, sleeping nearly all day and it was not because it was sick, it was because it was not eating anything and literally starving to death. But I thought she was sick, and didnt want to take her back to the store to die, so yes I took her to see a vet, as I was already in love with her.

But as I dont have unlimited monies to return to the vet every week, I was hoping to get some advice from you guys.

The fruits and other items ARE things I read off the internet that are safe for birds in hopes that I could get her introduced to more foods and things that are not cold she will try. But she wont touch anything that is cold. Because I thought she was old enough to not be handfed. Of course, I could be wrong.

You guys have to understand this was recommended because the condition of the bird when I got her. As she was nearly starved to death, fell asleep eating millet and throughout the day she slept. She was like this until I was able to nurse her back to health using the formula and the eggs and the pellets. Which She wouldnt ever try the eggs before, but on easter we were coloring eggs, and messing with the eggs. I guess she was interested in it because we were messing with the eggs, but I got one, still warm and of course uncolored.. and mushed it up for her and she ate it like she had never eaten before!

Now when she eats she doesnt gorge herself, she eats a normal amount, and her crop is nothing more than slightly rounded. Not buldging or very big at all. Which makes me wonder in the first place should she even still be handfeeding.

No, I have never hand fed a bird, as I've never owned a baby bird before. But vet showed me how to hand feed her, but you see, she doesnt do like normal birds and bob her head up and down as she's eating, she takes a beak full and swallows it like she drinks water, of course this is more like creamy pudding, not water. but it's as if she were just eating the formula as a comfort food. Mostly the food is around her puffy cheeks, which I dont want to leave there and harden...

sometimes it will drop down onto her chest, but mostly its her cheeks that get messy. She doesnt take it like a normal bird, she merely opens her beak long enough for it to fill and drinks it down. of course static begging noises throughout the whole process. Then once she's had enough 2cc's or so later, she'll turn her head, hop back up my arm and sit on my shoulder.

But perhaps you guys are right, now that she is much better condition she probably doesnt need the eggs now. But she just loves her eggs so much, I hate to not give her them. So I do still give her them. Maybe I should not give her them.

As far as begging for attention, she spends at least 40% of the day on mine or my daughters shoulder, doing wing exercises, playing in the floor with us generally hanging out with us, so it's not like she only gets let out of the cage to eat.. so I wouldnt think the begging was for attention. Though you could be right.

I will go and take some pictures and post them for you maybe you guys can tell me better how old she is.

She doesnt constantly cry, she cries every 4 hours, begging static noises for food. The vet assured me that everything was fine with her, he examined her stool and he did take a stool sample to check bacteria levels. He did not do any blood work, though he would have/wanted too, I requested that we didnt to incur less cost for me, but had the stool sample came back with anything out of the norm we would have of course taken the steps needed. So I'm not worried that she is any way unhealthy now. I just came to ask about if she'll ever stop eating out of my hand... and eat on her own in the cage or on the cage. And should I be handfeeding her, speaking of... let me get those pictures.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)




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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

the problem with taking a bird to a vet and not an avian vet is they are basically clueless unless you walk them through what they are doing, if it was an avian vet he will know of local breeders, and dont say there isnt any somebody is supplying that pet store.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*So I'm not worried that she is any way unhealthy now. I just came to ask about if she'll ever stop eating out of my hand... and eat on her own in the cage or on the cage. And should I be handfeeding her, speaking of... let me get those pictures.*
*----------------------------------------------------------------*

No offense, but going back thru the postings it sounds like you are facilitating her reactions and responding by begging because she is getting a positive responce from you. 

From my own personal experience though I am really concerned about the combinations of food that contain protein....and you are offerring it in excess of what the bird needs. I did that in my early days of breeding and learned at the birds expence by having some die of kidney failure.

As to sunflower seed it is actually packed with a surprising amount of nutrients. It is the type of sunflower seed that can vary. For example the small solid black seed is higher in fat. The sunflower seed with the white stripe is preferable for tiels.

And as to the concern of providing too much fat in the diet I would like to state that *all birds* *need* some fatty sources of food in their diet. The reason why is that there are fat stored in the body and also around the major organs. These fat stores will also contain vitamins, and some minerals. When a bird is sick or stressed it will also draw from the fat reserves. if these fat reserves are not in the body then the bird will draw from the protein sources which are the muscles, resulting in rapid weight loss. Without fat stores it immune system is not optimun, and this leaves the bird suspect to secondary health prblems.

Your pix's will help to determine approx age.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)




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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

She/he is a pearl pied. The tail looks to be about 6-7 weeks of age. If older the tail length would be close to what an adults tail length would be.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

Yes.. there is someone supplying the pet store. As I mentioned... They said they called her, called the breeder, and got onto her for sending them yet another unweaned bird to feed that they didnt have the time to feed and claimed that was her job. But at least they know now they need to hand feed it, thanks to my continued phone calls to their store over a weeks time. 

So this is my little girl, her tail and her back, my shipment came in today she actually quite enjoyed the rice treats I got for her she's with my daughter gobbling up a few now


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

With the sunflower seeds, she doesnt even eat the seed that's inside, but she does enjoy hulling it when I give her one. The seed and hull usually remain neither get ingested.

6-7 weeks! That would mean I bought her when she was 4-5 weeks old? Her tail has been this long though since I got her. The vet called her a young bird, so no he wasnt any help determining her age, though I didnt press the matter, I was more concerned about her health, not her age at the time.

I offer her lots of things, but she doesnt eat any of them. She eats pellets and eggs.. I suppose I should stop giving her the eggs. Millet on occassion, maybe three times a week, and sunflower seeds, no more than 2 a day, but she doesnt eat those either. she just likes cracking them.

Oh really? That's good information about he sunflower seeds, as I have both available in this bag, as well as dried corn which she does eat a bit of that too. I didnt know that about the sunflower seeds.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

ok these are 2 pictures of my hand-fed babes the first is a chick that just hit 7 weeks old and the other hatched february 15th. both are weaned but the youngest will be monitored over the next 2 weeks before i even think of finding him a home. but this gives you an idea on tail length.

as to weaning age it can go anywere between 6-12 weeks, depending on traits it got from parents, mine start refusing formula around 5-6 weeks of age but i have other babes that take til 10 weeks old.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*As I mentioned... They called her the breeder, and got onto her for sending them yet another unweaned bird to feed that they didnt have the time to feed and claimed that was her job.*
*------------------------------------------*

Regardless of if the bird was weaned or not from the breeder it is still the responciblity* (sp) of the shop *to make sure the bird is fullu eating on it's own before they even consider selling it. It sounds like this shop is passing the fault on to the breeder.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

no cockatiel seed diet will have corn, or both sunflower seeds what brand are you buying.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

So. Hopefully that is enough info for you guys to give me some suggestions, thanks for the help

I dont want to facilitate her! But I dont want her to starve, I will check out those charts, based on her age and see what they recommend for how much and how often.

she's not fat by any means, but you cannot feel the bones in her chest either. I think she's just right, based on cockatiels I've been around in the past. Then again I have no clue about babies.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

Aww, they are so cute So if she is only that young, and her wings were already clipped, it's probably more than likely she never learned to fly, ?? She didnt have the energy for flying, she was doing good to be breathing 2 weeks ago. But I see your birds wings are not clipped. Are they learning to fly now or are they already fully schooled on flying at 6-7 weeks.

This cockatiel seed I bought is: Hartz bird diet. Cockatiel, lovebird, small conures. the ingredients are as listed, White millet, whole wheat, oat groats, red millet, toasted cornflakes, canary grassseed, red milo, black oil sunflower seeds, ground corn, striped sunflower seeds, dehulled soybean meal, corn glutten meal, soybean oil, calcuim carbanate, phosph8, salt, brewers dried yeast, cane molasses, potassium chloride, corn distillers dried grains, l-lysign, choline chloride, DL-methionine, soybean hulls, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, condensed whey fermantion solubles, magnesum oxide, rice hulls, ferrous sulfate, viamin E supplement, some more stuff I dont know how to pronounce... vitamin b vitamin d3 seems like good stuff.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

it has the flattened peices of corn, and both sunflower seeds in it... I thought that was good?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...given the 'guestimate' of her being approx 6 weeks old you should be handfeeding her. Do you have a scales that weighs in grams. this would be helpful in knowing how much she weighs and to monitor her weight. 

What I wouold suggest is tho refer to the handfeeding chart page: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=18189 and read the entire thread. nwoodrow has just added some really helpful charts to the last page.

I would start offering her 3 feedings a day. Formula temps should be about 104-106 degrees, the thickness consistent with baby food applesauce. As you had posted she has only taken a few cc of formula at a time....if so that is fine. Start offerring it 3X a day. And over the next week or two start reducing the amounts as mentioned below. Essentially what you will be doing is treating her like she was a recently pull from the nest for handfeeding baby, and going thru all the steps to wean her.

This is what I do:

*Re: Hand-Feeding and Weaning babies 

*I normally pull my babies at 3.5 to 4 weeks of age. 

You can use a chart to keep track of when and how much you feed. 

Also keep track of the weight of your baby. *Always* weigh the bird when it is empty. At fledgling age you may notice the baby has lost a few grams. This is normal, especially if you have noticed that they are flapping their wings and trying to fly. Once they have taken their first flight (_never let them fly with a full crop, this can cause aspiration if they crash and food gets forced up the neck) _they should start gaining a little more weight again. 

The reason for weighing is also it can be your diagnostic tool to make sure things are fine. Sometimes a baby may appear fine, but start dropping werght rapidly. If so, this is an alert that there is a serious problem going on.

I start them on 3 feedings a day, 8cc morning, 5-6cc lunch, and 8cc night. The reason why so little is because at this age their crop has shrunk considerably because the parents have already reduced the amount fed.

They are in a big container with pine shavings, with half of the top covered. If they are fully feathered there is no need for heat…room temps are fine.

I place a small bowl with seed, and sprinkle some on the bedding near the bowl. I also place millet in with them. 

It takes them approx a week to explore and start nibbling. The container is big enough for them to walk around, explore, and flap wings for exercise.

I write down every day how much I feed per feeding and amount. 

Once I start seeing them nibble on millet seed, I will daily decrease the middle feeding by 1cc per day, and reduce daily down to 0cc), and at 9 skip the middle feeding. 

When they are down to 2 feeding a day, I will move them to a cage.

By then I introduce greens, veggies (separate dish) during their skipped lunch feeding time. 

Once I see them nibbling eating more, then I daily decrease the morning feeding down 1cc per day. Once down to 0, then they are down to 1 feeding (night) a day.

I wait a day or so and then start decreasing the nighttime feeding by 1cc a day. When I get down to it reduced to 2-3cc many times they are starting to refuse the formula. If they still want formula hold it at 2-3cc for a week or so, feeling their crop to make sure they also have food in there from trying to eat on their own. 

Once I finally get to where I am no longer hand-feeding I will make sure that at the normal nighttime feeding I change out food and water so that they have fresh, and give more millet or other treats they will eat. At their normal bedtime I feel the base of the crop to make sure I can feel food in it. This goes on for a few weeks before I can consider them weaned.

Sorry,...it sounds long and confusing. But if you write your daily feedings on a calendar it makes it easy. And it is far better to slowly taper down a feeding than to cold turkey skip a feeding.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

I agree about the pet store. They are not in it for the care or love of the birds, it's all about the almighty dollar. and at $89.99 a head, they are making it as fast as they can sell them. But let me tell you what, they put a unweaned bird, totally dependant on hand feeding, straight in a box and didnt bother to tell the person that it was still being hand fed. The person was like, I wanted to be introduced... so he opened the box and said "bird, lady, lady bird" closed it up and began to ring it up. RUSHED MUCH? She just said I'm thinking of getting a cockatiel, not give me that one in a box I'll take it. I've since started going to petsmart, this little pet shop will not get another dollar from me.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Kierstien said:


> it has the flattened peices of corn, and both sunflower seeds in it... I thought that was good?


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Do you know what brand it is? It sounds like it is the Kaytee fortified brand. If so is it vitamin fortied?.....which leads to another concern. Remeber those fat stores I mentioned in a previous posting? These fat stores hold the vitamins, especially the fat soluble vitamins from the food ingested/eaten. With this in mind if you are feeding pellets (which contain vitamins) and any other food sources that are vitamin fortified these vitamins can buildup in the body, and over time creat a toxicity. it is also important, when giving a pelleted or fortified seed diet to never supplement with additional vitamins.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_*and at $89.99 a head, they are making it as fast as they can sell them. But let me tell you what, they put a unweaned bird, totally dependant on hand feeding, straight in a box and didnt bother to tell the person that it was still being hand fed.*_
*-----------------------------------------------------*

89.99 is a resonable price for the bird you purchased. *How *do you know the bird was unweaned? Why didn't you say anything?


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

my birds start flying at 4 weeks of age, so her age has nothing to do with being able to fly it might have flown at a young age and then been clipped.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

my birds are clipped starting at 6-7 weeks of age(yes they can fly) but it makes it easier to handfeed, cause a baby flying with a full crop can aspirate itself if it flys into a wall, or drops from a high distance. plus a flighted bird is a harder bird to hold still for feeding times.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

That's a great chart, thank you for that information. 

So I'm at the three feedings a day, 2cc's each but she still is hungry for that 4:00 feeding That I stopped giving her, but since you mentioned three, I guess that is ok, she still does eat pellets at that time.

The bird seed is hartz bird diet. No, I dont put any vitamins in her water as that was frowned upon due to spoiling. I have a water bottle in there as that was what she had in the store, but also water in her cup as well, which she prefers the cup. I'd like her to use the bottle as that is so much more sanitary.

The vitamin fortified, it sounds like this seed is vitamin fortified, and I am not giving her any seeds at all. I want her to be on the pellets so she is sure to get all her nutrition instead of picking through the seeds and only eating her favorites and not getting her proper nutrition, as well as veggies and leafy greens, which she will not touch the veggies or leafy greens.

So, if I leave it at pellets and millet and keep trying the veggies, along with the 3x a day hand feeding, is that ok? I use Exact hand feeding formula by kaytee.

I think she was just too weak to fly then, and she gets stronger every day and with the wing excercises she uses them more and more. I will let her feathers grow back completely, she's extremely tame and very used to her new home.

Sounds to me like, NO MORE EGGS! lol. 

Does that sound about right? Thank you both for taking the time to spend to find out all the details so you could answer my questions.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

Oh, and you are right. She maybe was weaned. They told me she was cracking seeds. And that she was weaned. but she was obviously, like she is now, not eating any of the sunflower seeds they offered her, assumed she was weaned and wasnt handfeeding her, therefore she was slowly starving to death. And they sold her to me telling me she was weaned and eating. Also the friend of this bird that was already sold at the time I purchased it, they mentioned that they wanted to sell these two as a pair because they were bonded, but the lady that bought the other one couldnt afford both. And during this conversation I found out that during shipment the other birds wing was swollen so the pet store owner couldnt sell it right away until the wing went down. I do wonder what happened to that other bird, and if it's still alive now.

And the bird that was totally being handfed that got thrown into a box and ready to ring up without a mention that it was still being handfed, and the care and time it would take to assure that the little bird was eating, weaning process and everything.

They seem to know nothing about the birds, the lady, upon further questioning before purchasing the bird, did find out that it was being handfed still, and she had no clue how to handfeed, and he told her oh it's easy you just stick it in there and they gobble it up. H didnt mention aspiration he didnt mention warming.. temp.. consistency of the formula nothing.

My three visits to this store have proven to me that they know nothing about birds. And the fact that they were selling this lady a bird who had no idea what to do how to care for it or that it wasnt even weaned in the first place doesnt say much either.

Why didnt I say anything, well I assumed my bird was as they said, weaned and eating. But any bird can play in the seeds and look like it's eating but not actually be ingesting anything. As the case with mine, who nearly died.

And as for the other bird, I was telling the lady more about it than the pet store employees were.

Makes me wonder how many other people that have no idea how to care for a baby bird will end up with one. You know the new movie RIO is coming out, or is out, it will probably cause world wide want for birds. I hope that whoever gets birds from this store in the future are more informed than I or this lady was.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*The bird seed is hartz bird diet.*
*-------------------------------------------*

*Yuck!*.... that stuff is crap. Go to a store that is excluseively birds and try to find a good cockatiel mix. A mix that is NOT sold for the human appeal...which has dried fruit/veggies/ pellets and other fillers in it. That is all the fillers and excess aside from the seed. You want a plain cockatiel mix. Or you can even give her some plain parakeet seed as the source of seed if you are also offerring her pellets, and greens/veggies. 

* So, if I leave it at pellets and millet and keep trying the veggies, along with the 3x a day hand feeding, is that ok? I use Exact hand feeding formula by kaytee.*

*I *repeat. The bird should have a varied diet. This means that it should also be given seed....read my prior posts as to the ratios.

The Exact handfeeding formula is fine. Start with the 3X feedings and start *reducing* the amount fed for the *middle feeding* over several days so that by this time next week you are offerring the formula 2x a day.


*My three visits to this store have proven to me that they know nothing about birds. And the fact that they were selling this lady a bird who had no idea what to do how to care for it or that it wasnt even weaned in the first place doesnt say much either.*
*-------------------------------------*

LOL....and from what I am reading you are also a novice to birds...BUT it appears you are open and willing to learn. And, a sympathy purchase only perpetuates/facilitates them selling unweaned birds...it is a two way street.


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

About the wings, my birds wings were already clipped when I got her, two weeks ago. I dont know that she never learned to fly. I do know she didnt have the energy to fly for who knows how long before I got her, and even now she's just now getting to where she will use them to get from one place to another around the house. This was only after wing exercises daily and her getting stronger muscles as well as having the energy to flap them.

I bought her on 4/16/2011

But if you say birds fly when they are around 4 weeks old, then it's possible she did know how to fly before they were clipped. She just didnt have the energy to do so. And now maybe since she went for so long without proper nutrition, the muscles arent as strong as they need to be. That's what I figure. So therefore, exercises!


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## Kierstien (Apr 30, 2011)

Ok Thanks for the very awesome advice. Plain seeds! Will do. Reduce middle feeding. Got it. So this will encourage her to eat more on her own rather than depending on me to hand feed her. I see. Baby birds are ALOT of work! But I'd rather have a sweet tame bird than a bird who would rather bite off my finger than sit on it or who flaps wildly in the cage and refuses to come out and be a part of the activities. I guess each has it's own set of hurdles.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

it does no good blaming things on other people when you cant prove anything, take responsibility for what you are doing, if you truly bought an unweaned bird you are part of the reason this petstore is able to sell them. do not make assumptions of what happened between the breeder and petstore sale, deal with the now, and start providing a good diet which does include seed. unless you are able to prove that it started at the breeder level then blame goes to petstore, but since you cant prove what happened in that 2 weeks at the petstore, the blame goes to you cause you didnt check that the bird was weaned, you stressed the bird out by switching its diet from what it may have been eating. and a cockatiel near death isnt sleeping and relaxing its lying on the cage bottom barely breathing, lethargic looking. a clipped bird cannot gain altitude like a fully flighted bird, so just cause she's not flying now doesnt mean she wont once she goes through that first moult and gets those feathers back.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

i found when introducing veggies that because they think of me as mommy, i eat it infront of them and then offer it to them, even if i have to hold a tip in my mouth and hold it their for them to investigate, you got to remember a parent shows the babes whats good to eat, and the baby copies and mimics them. that would be the reason she eats pellets from your hand but not really anywere else, except cage floor which makes sence cause when birds start to eat seed its offered on the bottom of the cage and not in a dish hanging from the cage wall.


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## Lulu The Tiel (Apr 11, 2011)

I would like to add that this is really great learning material for me.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

im glad your finding this helpful Lulu, if your wanting more information check out the breeding section on how to be prepared for handraising and the handfeeding chart posts.


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## Lulu The Tiel (Apr 11, 2011)

I have.  

Will I need it? Who knows, but it's always good to gain knowledge in the area.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*that would be the reason she eats pellets from your hand but not really anywere else, except cage floor which makes sence cause when birds start to eat seed its offered on the bottom of the cage and not in a dish hanging from the cage wall.*
*-----------------------------------------------------*

Great info (entire post) nwoodrow  Also seed, pellets or whatever can be sprinkled on the cage floor (have newspaper layed down) and you can use your fingertip to tap near the food to simulate the parent pecking to eat which will hopefully stimulate your bird to peck and try to eat. Once you gets it's curiosity up to start pecking place a hand mirror along the inside of the cage. Your bird will see the bird in the mirror pecking and copy and compete with it to eat.


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## bear2491 (Feb 26, 2011)

Just to add my little bit...my work (a petstore in Aus) sells only one brand of seed, Golden Cob, which is fairly good as far as cleanliness and quality goes but the small parrot mix is a bit too sunflower filled for my liking so what I do is mix a 5kg bag of small parrot and a 5kg bag of budgie mix which dramatically lessens the amount of sunflower my birds get. They still get a fair few every day though, but I know that they don't favour it like my birds in the past.

I think you could probably give your baby more than 2 sunflower seeds a day though, especially as she isn't actually eating them as yet as you said. 

I also know you said you will be giving plain seed from now on, good! As srtiels said tiels ARE naturally seed eaters and get all their needs from seeds as well as the occasional other insect etc they may eat in the process. I just think that sometimes people forget this


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## sunshinebirdy (Apr 7, 2011)

Oh, the weaning process is very painstaking! The breeder gave my Tiel his last formula feeding when he was about 6 months old. I don't know if that is normal or not, but maybe that will help you with the time-frame of weaning off formula. At that point, a seed variety (and millet) were his "main foods". After taking him to the vet for his first check-up, they encouraged me to put him on a pellet diet...so we have started working on that, but it's certainly difficult to do when the bird loves seeds! What I ended up doing was putting a big bowl of seeds under his cage, on a tray (His cage is up on stilts), so he climbs down to get seeds when he really wants it. I decided that if he is willing to work to find it, then he can have some seeds. Then in his cage, I put half pellets and half seeds, and he is slowly starting to eat more pellets now. I am slowly changing the ratio so that there are more pellets, than there are seeds. I don't know if that really helps -- you may need to try different things until you find what works for your Tiel. 

It takes work and patience...so sorry you're having to hand-feed in the middle of the night! You're a loving & caring Momma  It's a shame that some pet stores even try to take on & sell pets that they no nothing about.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Oh, the weaning process is very painstaking! The breeder gave my Tiel his last formula feeding when he was about 6 months old. I don't know if that is normal or not, but maybe that will help you with the time-frame of weaning off formula. At that point, a seed variety (and millet) were his "main foods". After taking him to the vet for his first check-up, they encouraged me to put him on a pellet diet...so we have started working on that, but it's certainly difficult to do when the bird loves seeds! What I ended up doing was putting a big bowl of seeds under his cage, on a tray (His cage is up on stilts), so he climbs down to get seeds when he really wants it. I decided that if he is willing to work to find it, then he can have some seeds. Then in his cage, I put half pellets and half seeds, and he is slowly starting to eat more pellets now. I am slowly changing the ratio so that there are more pellets, than there are seeds. I don't know if that really helps -- you may need to try different things until you find what works for your Tiel.
> 
> It takes work and patience...so sorry you're having to hand-feed in the middle of the night! You're a loving & caring Momma It's a shame that some pet stores even try to take on & sell pets that they no nothing about.


Six months to wean is actually a REALLY long time to wean. Birds should be weaned around 8-10 weeks depending on the bird. And an all pellet diet is not exactly healthy for your bird, it can cause liver damage in the future. A mixed diet (of pellets, seeds, and veggies) is really the best way to go! You can have a bowl of pellets and a bowl of seeds in the cage, they'll eat both. Mine do. But taking the seeds away could starve your bird so keep an eye on any weight loss.


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