# very watery urates please i want to know whats going on



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i asked about this before, i know this is NOT normal, finally got a photo of the dropping with very watery urates, more so than the last one.... if someone can please shed some light on this, that would be great...

the feces is green like normal but from the urates being so watery they coat everything and make them white. when they dry, they dry white


----------



## Raheel (Aug 22, 2011)

Probably drinking a lot of water?? Im not expert, just a wild guess


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

shes not drinking any more than the others. the urine isnt watery, the white part of the droppings are 
i have her on probiotics right now for this problem but i dont know if it will make a difference


----------



## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

It seems to get worse than last time


----------



## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I wish I knew an answer for you!  A vet visit maybe? Has their been any new foods lately that might have interfered with digestion somehow? Hoping everything is okay....keeping you in our thoughts.


----------



## igottafeelin (Aug 29, 2011)

I think it does look worse than last time too. I wish I had an answer for you.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

they go back and forth between good (the other photo from before) and this.... no new foods as i have switched seed brands but this was going on before that.

in fact, shes always had watery urates since we got her. she got sick really bad, but the droppings have improved over all... this seems to be normal for her as shes not acting ill and shes a brat as usual.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

any thoughts on this?


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Are you still giving her ACV? And also, is there a clear urine portion? I can't see from the pics.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

there is clear urine. its the white part of the dropping that is watery

we are giving probiotics (plain yogurt)


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

What has the timing been like with the weird droppings? Did she have them when she was on the ACV? 

I really don't have much knowledge here, I'm just wondering if the droppings are reflecting some fluctuation in gut flora, or possibly a regrowth of yeast. You'd obviously want to try to avoid the latter. I did try googling for you, and I didn't find much.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

You could offer her a little bit of Pedialyte just in case it helps. This is NOT for long-term use of course. You don't have to buy the expensive stuff at the store, there are simple homemade versions: http://www.birdboard.com/forum/f68/rehydration-electrolytes-862426.html


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

shes had the watery urates since we got her... she came from a poor environment

she was housed in an antique painted cage, the owners let their dog lick them, they smoked pot, cigarettes, and burned incense... tiny cages plucked.

this was the condition i got her in (appearance wise, i dont have photos of before we brought her home)










Thank you for the link Tielfan.

Do you think a gatorade will work too? we can do th electrolyte formula too but until we can buy the baking soda (my fiance is funny with money) could we use gatorade from the pharmacy down the street (such as powerade or gatorade?)


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You said in your other thread that you were told she probably had the yeast since you got her too, right? That's why I'm asking about the ACV. Did she have the watery urates while she was on it and recovering, or did it clear up for a while as she got better, and just come back now?


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The antique painted cage makes me think of heavy-metal contamination. You could try adding cilantro (fresh coriander) to her diet - nothing is really proven, but there are some indications that it can help chelate toxic metals and get them out of the body: http://www.healthdiaries.com/eatthis/cilantro-chelation-therapy-heavy-metal-detox.html

Cilantro is bird-safe and nutritious, and my flock loves it.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

enigma, the ACV helped clear away the yeast but not the watery urates. theyve never changed.

enigma, you may want to see her tread from when she was ill
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=21701&highlight=good+thoughts+munch

i will try the cilantro as shes a good eater when it comes to vegetables. shes not picky with them. we did suspect metal poisoning when she was ill. her parents were housed in an old cage that had clothes hanger wire welded on one side where the cage was broken too... so thats also another worry.


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

If the ACV didn't modify the urates, then I would agree with the suggestion of metal poisoning. I almost wonder whether there might be some residual kidney or liver damage from metal poisoning when she was young. Possibly the watery urates might reflect normal fluctuation in her diet that in turn causes more or less stress on the affected organs. But please understand, this is only a theory.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

thats all we have is theories... but theyre sound theories and worth thinking about.

which means, ive got to keep an eye on mango too as he was caged in the same antique cage (hes her brother)


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You've had her for a while though, right? I tend to think that even if something is abnormal, if it's been stable for a substantial period of time, it's not likely to be a problem in the near future. (But I know, it's easy for me to say this while freaking out over similar things in my own birds.)

If I end up going to the vet again soon, I'll try and remember to ask him about this. Hopefully I won't be going back for a long time, though. And hopefully you won't, either.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

shes almost 11 months old now, ive had her since she was 9 weeks old. 


thank you tielfan and enigma, both of you have been very helpful, i will be back in the morning and keep updates. i will try to get the cilantro tomorrow and i will monitor her droppings too tomorrow. ill also get some dried dropping photos. i will actually quickly snap a photo of the dropping from this thread to show you how they dry


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I have noticed that my lovies always have more liquidy/less formed droppings when compared to my 'tiels. I can't recall if I've ever seen a dropping from them like the ones in your pics. It might just be a trait peculiar to Munch. I hope that's all it is. 

ETA: If you really wanted to, you could try keeping a record of her diet, activity, etc. and when the watery urates occur. I'm not sure if you'd want to do that much work for a symptom that doesn't seem all that serious, but it might help you discover a pattern.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

its worth it i take photos when theres a change lol

if it helps the droppings have been getting larger than they used to be lol

ok got the photos

this is the very same photo as earlier









then some others. the one with the dark wet spot around it is fresh


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Huh. That definitely is odd. Like I said, since it seems to be stable, I would be inclined to think there might be a developmental abnormality caused by her bad circumstances early on. I think, if you can't find a pattern, I would just offer the best supportive care possible in terms of diet and environment, which you're already doing. You might ask your vet next time you happen to be in for something.

As far as the droppings getting larger, I think I would just interpret that as her eating more. Maybe she's feeling better now that she got rid of the underlying yeast infection?

I'm sorry I don't have a more definitive answer for you.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i figured the larger droppings are from increased diet as now shes eatng ten times more
we switched seed brands to one with more variety to get her to eat more because before she'd only eat sunflower seeds and rolled oats.... she refused any other seed in the mix. the new mix offers more and she loves it. we switched 2 months ago and this is when the droppings started to get larger.

thank you so much for your help, but i must be off to bed, i gotta wake up in 4 hours for work


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Have a good night.


----------



## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

I remember srtiels saying something about white droppings and too much cuttle bone causing some sort of system shut down. I can't remember what was said or where the thread was, but you may want to look into that.


----------



## resalat_hasan (Sep 7, 2011)

I hope she'll be fine in no time


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

she never touched her cuttlebone until recently and even now its like 3 small nibbles a day


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

got the cilantro, munch nibbled on the stem a bit but she seems to like it a bit. tried giving soaked pellets as sometimes she eats them too but she refused them (as usual. pellets are next to a losing battle with her)

shes playing with her snuggle buddy toy a lot and eating and drinking just fine, and acting perfectly normal.


----------



## katew (Sep 6, 2011)

I dont know if this is relevant but my 'too used to have watery droppings before laying an egg. Or at that time of year.


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

DallyTsuka said:


> got the cilantro, munch nibbled on the stem a bit but she seems to like it a bit. tried giving soaked pellets as sometimes she eats them too but she refused them (as usual. pellets are next to a losing battle with her)
> 
> shes playing with her snuggle buddy toy a lot and eating and drinking just fine, and acting perfectly normal.


Pellets are a total loss with Mystic, too. We've literally tried for years to convert her, but she'd rather starve than eat them. Our vet says that as long as she's not overweight and gets a good selection of veggies, it should be okay. I actually wonder if it might be better for Munch not to have pellets, if she might have some minor kidney dysfunction.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

though she has been a little hormonal, i do not think these are due to egg laying as she has had these since 9 weeks old or younger

i wondered on that. she didnt eat them anyways so i removed them before they went bad. i guess she wont get so much of them (theres pellets in her birdy cookies but i will use less next time)

to show me how much she liked them she pooped in them instead of eating them lol

just in case it is a kidney problem she will get a small amount of celery seeds a week and some cranberry juice (diluted) or cranberries regularly. dont think it can hurt, right?

this is essentially her diet:

seed mix (with sunflower, safflower, oat groats, red millet, white millet, canary grass seed, some tiny black seed, and a bit of other seeds.)
carrots
brocholli
peas
rice
pasta
dried papaya, raisons, craisons, apple, coconut, pinapple, and dates
kale
now cilantro
celery
sometimes 1 grape cut into 4
she usually gets one mealworm once a week or every other week but thats gonna stop.
shes got a cuttlebone and mineral block but she goes for the cuttlebone mostly. the cuttle bone mainly gets 3 nibbles a day.

and add my fingers in there too 

fresh water daily and as spoiled (she sometimes dunks)
fresh seed in the morning when she wakes up, she gets 2 tablespoons of seed mix for the day. veggies in the evening. dried fruit is offered all day


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think that sounds like a great diet.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i should hope so. they all get the same but the tiels get pellets and they love them. but seed based diet as too much pellets arent good


----------



## igottafeelin (Aug 29, 2011)

This might help. Was browsing a fellow members very informative website and thought of you when I read this. 
http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/droppings.html


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The "Poopology" articles on the internet mention that urates and urine are usually separate but they can be mixed, and apparently this isn't abnormal. It looks like Munch is mixing them up every time.

In the picture, every poop had a stain around it where the excess water had dried. If all of Munch's poops are like this then there might be some chronic polyuria here, which can have many different causes. But if there is no excess water on many occasions, then it's possible that everything is OK.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

the stains arent really excessive. they slowly form around the droppings (note the very first fresh dropping in the thread you can JUST see the urine stain. the second photo of when it dried shows the stain but it slowly got there... does that make sense? the droppings seem to deflate when they dry?


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

wait i just remembered, shes had a lot of celery lately so that would account for the excessive urine in the recent droppings and why those ones have a lot of urine. i give veggies in the evening as their dinner and i have been giving lots of celery lately and those droppings are her bedtime droppings.... so excessive urine solved.

i was worried about the urates being liquid rather than more solid. but shes still got the cilantro, im removing pellets (keeping in her birdy cookies but not a lot) as a precaution to see if theres any changes. she made a poop that was not excessively wet and it kinda globbed on the perch lol 3 times the size she normall poops


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It does sound like the excess urine has been solved!

Cilantro is good to feed frequently. It's very low in oxalates, and I haven't been able to find any downside to it. If she does have heavy metal in her tissues it will probably take time to get rid of it (if the cilantro can actually do this), and if she doesn't have heavy metal then she'll still be getting a nice nutritious veggie.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

here's a photo, just kinda gross. theres normal urine, its looking a bit better, but it will likely dry white. im debating whether i should wait and see or leave it on her perch... kinda nasty









cilantro is really cheap too so she will be getting it for awhile. im happy with cilantro. i never bought it before as i wasnt sure on it (ive heard to be careful with regular parsley) but now that i know it will be a regular veggie.

it cant hurt to give it to her so as a precaution i will feed it to her


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Parsley has been reported as being very high in oxalates in the past, although lately I've been hearing that this is wrong and it's actually fairly low. But even the new lower value is ten times as much oxalate as cilantro has. The old high value was 170 times as much!


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

well little update....

ive boiled fresh cilantro as she only picks at it, she doesnt eat much of it... so i boiled it into an extract and put a teaspoon of the "extract" into her water. i also boiled celery seeds too to help support her kidneys.


her droppings are starting to improve as most of them look more and more normal 











so since the cilantro is starting to work... im pretty sure you guys were right and it was metal poisoning.


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That's awesome news! I hope she continues to improve.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

me too thanks so much guys!!!


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Go Munch! :clap:


----------



## luffy3001 (Sep 1, 2010)

wait if ur feeding it yogurt that will make it much more worse unless the sickness type needs it but other than that that will make it worse


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

luffy3001 said:


> wait if ur feeding it yogurt that will make it much more worse unless the sickness type needs it but other than that that will make it worse


Plain yogurt is fine as a probiotic and shouldn't hurt anything, even if it's not needed.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

yogurt, plain, as long as it has the probiotics is fine. its not as likely to give digestive upsets as other dairy products because of the way it is made. processed cheese is fine to give as a treat (it doesnt have probiotics though).


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think the lactose in processed yogurt and cheese is pre-digested, right? That's why it's fine for them (and people with lactose intolerance).


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

im not sure exactly how but i know its not enough to cause problems with digestion. milk may make your bird sick, but small amounts of processed cheese or plain yogurt wont hurt. cheese is a great source of calcium and my guys all love the odd tiny tidbit once in a blue moon


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Mine too. I have cheddar monsters.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> i boiled it into an extract and put a teaspoon of the "extract" into her water.


Wow, that was clever - I would never have thought of doing that! I'm glad that something is helping her droppings get better.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

she only nibbles at the cilantro so i didnt feel that was enough so i decided to make an extract and put it in her water, which seems to be working.


----------

