# HELP ! Liver deasise help!



## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

I have taken my little Benito to the avain vet , who tells me everything is alright.
But he will not understand what im trying to say , My bird looks normal and healthy && is extremly happy at the moment. 
But for the last few days his droppings have been light tan , with yellow urates and very watery. Im suspecting liver deasise and Im freaking out
The vet says theres nothing to worry about as its not serious just yet.
*I dont want it to get serious* , what can I do to turn the boat around?
More pellets less seed? Roman lettuce? More all bran cereal?
Should I cut off seed completly ? Im so worryed , I do not want to lose him.
Its only been a few days , can I reverse it? 
My actual veternarian is on holiday , and I dont think the others are taking it seriously. Im dieing of worry , I dont know what to do.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Did your vet do any lab tests, or see the droppings that you're concerned about? 

Please check out the abnormal droppings thread at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=10100 and see if there's anything there that sounds like what you're seeing. Also post some pictures of your bird's droppings here in this thread, so the experts can look at them and give an opinion. 

Don't make any drastic changes in your bird's diet until you've gotten some advice from a vet or an experienced person. If it really is liver disease, it's a long term problem not an immediate emergency. A sudden change in diet will disrupt your bird's normal eating patterns and can make things worse, whether it's liver disease or something else or even no problem at all.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Pics of the droppings would help, to start.

Color changes can be due to more than just liver failure. Can you tell us what his current diet consists of? Also, have you had bloodwork or a fecal exam done? You'll need to do that before you try home treatments. If the yellow urates are instead caused by an infection, he'll need antibiotics right away.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

LOL...contrary to popular belief seed is not the main cause of liver problems....and swiching over to pellets does not prevent obesity which is one of the primary cause of liver problems.

My desktop computer is broken/down which has all my info saved...but you can go to the top of the forum and do a search for liver treatments....and info on helping the liver.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

So do you think it's liver disease, Susanne? I didn't know there was enough information available to make that determination. If you're confident that it is, I'll post some links to sites that talk about treatment.


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

Right now my camera is charging , so photos are coming up.
For now ill explain both of my birds diet.
They are on a pellet seed mix diet , with snacks/treats of whole grain cereals.
Angel eats her vegetables , but Benito refuses to eat eggs and greens.
I've asked the doctor for a fecal exam , but hes stubborn and insists everythings alright. 
Then halfway through his speech a emergency came into the office nad he zoomed out to help.
I _hate_ this doctor. He is intrested in the welfare of larger birds , compared to the tiny tots. My original vet is on vacation for three months , but its either Dr.Kert or a 7 hour drive outside the city. Its 7 hours without traffic, with it ide be guessing around 9-10 .
Other then the droppings , is there any way to tell if he has an infection?
The a.v office opens at 9am tomorrow, and Ill be making another apointment as fast as I can.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Bloodwork could tell you about infection. An elevated white count would be a big clue, and if there are any symptoms to suggest specific issues, they can do more focused tests. They can also take cultures from the throat and vent to see if any harmful organisms grow.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If your vet refuses to get lab tests on the droppings, you could try asking other veterinarians if they can arrange for you to get a lab test done. They might not treat birds themselves but they do have access to testing labs. 

Is there any way to talk/email with the vet on vacation? He obviously can't examine the bird, but he might be able to give advice, help arrange tests, or talk some sense into the vet who's still there.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm curious about something.. in your first post.. you were running down the list of things you could possibly do to change. 

One of the questions you wondered about was more all bran cereal. MORE all bran cereal? How much all bran cereal do you feed your bird? Just a thought.


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

Ill try and get some other vets in the area to get a lab tests done.
&& I dont have the email for my main A.V .
The receptionists refuses to hand it to me as he is gone on a personal vacation away from the problems of work.

As for the bran cereal, they only get a few flakes a day as treats. So not allot at all.
For now his droppings are switching around , from normal to abnormal. Im so confused, and im feeling more helpless as the only A.V. availible right now refuses to do anything that takes effort. I've seen him around in the veternarian office before, hes always been the unserious passive type. I'll try to get lab tests done elsewhere. Infact I have the phonebook open right now !


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If the vet office has a website you might be able to get some contact info for the good vet there. You can also try googling his name. It's possible that he might not appreciate it if you did contact him. Is there a friendly assistant/vet tech at the office that might be able to give you advice or assistance?



> For now his droppings are switching around , from normal to abnormal.


Do you mean that his droppings are sometimes normal and sometimes abnormal? If so, which one seems more common, the normal or abnormal kind. Can you identify any connection between his activities and the abnormal droppings, for example eating a particular kind of food?


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

tielfan said:


> If the vet office has a website you might be able to get some contact info for the good vet there. You can also try googling his name. It's possible that he might not appreciate it if you did contact him. Is there a friendly assistant/vet tech at the office that might be able to give you advice or assistance?
> 
> 
> Do you mean that his droppings are sometimes normal and sometimes abnormal? If so, which one seems more common, the normal or abnormal kind. Can you identify any connection between his activities and the abnormal droppings, for example eating a particular kind of food?


They have an website but it only gives the Clinics Phone and fax number. The assistant there is a sweetheart and tried to reccomend another avian vet clinic. The closest one we found was a 7 hour drive.

The abnormal kind are more common now , he doesent have that thick coiled brown dropping anymore. And it worrys me ! For his diet not much has changed, except I did start feeding him a different cereal as a treat. Its still all bran though.
Another idea could it be because he is not eating his vege's & fruits?
&& I've noticed he _is_ piging out lately.
They are on a pellet seed mix diet , yet I think this is what might be going on:
Angel is eating the pellets
And Benito the seeds. I jsut have a feeling that hes not eating his pellets ,but running around from both food dishes and munching only on seeds. Then again, i could be wrong. Ive seen him eat pellets , but its hard to track as hes always by the food dish.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

In the short term you need to get some tests done to determine whether he has an infection or not. Try to get your current vet office to work with you and if they won't do it you'll have to work around them somehow. And maybe report that irresponsible vet to the authorities for malpractice, it's seriously bad practice to refuse to run tests on a bird that's showing symptoms.

In the long run you'll need to work on improving his diet, since he sounds like a possible seed junkie. Nutriberries are nutritionally equivalent to pellets but they look like seed balls, and most tiels take to them pretty easily. They're easily available, and you can request a free sample at http://www.lafebercares.com/contact.html Specify cockatiel size.

P.S. Most cereals for humans are vitamin-fortified and have too much zinc and iron for birds. So they should be offered only occasionally in small amounts. Bran cereal is mostly fiber - I haven't actually bothered to look it up but I wouldn't expect it to have a lot of nutrients unless it is vitamin-fortified.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I am sorry about your situation. When a vet acts like this I could just scratch the wall 
Although I see a lot more avian vets in Calgary, please check this website...maybe it helps
http://www.parrotplace.ca/avian_vet.htm


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I found some saved info on my laptop....on things you can do for liver support whether you actually have a problem or not. The following will also work towards maintaing good liver health until you can get some tests done. Inb regards to the liver you have to have bloodwork done so that you can find out if there are elevated liver enzymes. Since you are also on a peeleted diet I would also ask to see if the uric acid levels are within normal range.

STOP any cereals until you find out what is wrong with him. Many cerals contain iron and the liver will store them and the iron can build up in the liver and impair function. 

As to the dropping the ONLY portion of the dropping you want to look at are the Urates, which is the white part. They should be white creamy texture. If they are discolored a yellow ochre, or pale to lime green it is an indication of a problem. Problems can range from a bacterial infection to liver problems.

NOTE: The a portion of the liver can be seen thru the abdominal skin. It is located right below the birds ribcage and if healthy a very dark maroon red color. If starting to infiltrate with fat it will be a paler brick red color. BUT, if you can not see thru the skin (skin is opaque, not transparent) at all this could be from a layer of fat coving over the organs inside the body. If this is so, then this can also impair the liver function.

OK....here is some info I have:

Under normal circumstances a bird mfg. and synthesizes vitamin C in the body. When it is sick the bodies ability to do this is hindered, thus supplementing is needed. This is *especially* so when you have suspected hepatic (liver) problems or damage. Vitamin C is a great supplement when sick and to aid the body when there are liver problems. A liver is regenerative, but it needs to be given the *tools* to help heal itself

Some of the tools are: 

1…Vitamin C (while sick)

2…Lactulose (would have to get this from the vet)

3…Natural exposure to sunlight or full spectrum lighting close to the cage.

4…Change of caging, such as a flight cage that encourages more movement and exercise, or flight time daily. 

5…When there are liver problems and the function of the liver is hindered this also can effect Vitamin A which is formed in the liver from beta‑carotene, thus many times this supplement (Carotene) is needed. 

6…An increase of the water soluble nutrients to the body. Brewers Yeast is an excellent source for these.

7…Milk thistle can be given for liver problems. Dandelion can also be given to detoxify and act as a stimulant to the liver. 1 drop of each (in extract form) to each 1/2 ounce of lactulose can be mixed up and the bird given a drop 2 times a day. These 2 herbal extracts can also be added to the drinking water at a ratio of 1 drop to 3 ounces of water, and changed 2 times a day.

I've found that everything has a *cause and effect* to other body functions in our feathered friends. To help them many times we have to get to the root of the problem, such as *why* your bird does have a suspected liver problem. Also how does this effect the other organs, and go from there. Many times giving the body the needed supplements and nutritional support (tools) can do more healing than any medication.

Susanne


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

Szafije said:


> I am sorry about your situation. When a vet acts like this I could just scratch the wall
> Although I see a lot more avian vets in Calgary, please check this website...maybe it helps
> http://www.parrotplace.ca/avian_vet.htm


 Oh ive tried , I live outside the calgary area. About forty five minutes or so , and all the other clinics except for Calgary Avian & Exotic pet Clinic actually have the knowledge to treat birds. All of the others ... are well dog and cat clinics who make a quick buck calling every bird 'healthy' after looking at it. 

Well I drove the five hours. I noticed him getting more and more unhealthy, and he soon fluffed up and the tail bobbing began. I knew something was up and was not going to wait and see. We went in my RV so the travel was not stressfull for him at all. They are used to it as we take them camping with us everytime.

It turned out he had a infection, and hes gotten Antibiotics. I also got a hold of my other Avian vetirnarian reporting what was going on in his office since hes been on break. The man working there is some serious trouble, And im glad he may either lose his job or be demoted as Im not the only complaint.
I know If I didnt start driving , I could've lost my baby. 
Thank you everyone for your help , it was great support!
The vet is expecting a full recovery, Thank god !
Thank you thank you thank you everyone , It means a whole lot.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I am glad about the good news, and sad that all these other vets are not good with birds...they are listed as avian vets....too bad 
Hope your little one will have a quick recovery


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You are such a good 'tiel parent for making that drive! Please keep us updated on his recovery.  Glad he's got the meds he needs now.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm so glad that you were finally able to get to a good vet! Have you brought Benito home again now? Please keep us informed about how he's doing.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

that's great news that you found out what was was wrong with Benito and that he will be all right.I would be livid with those so called avian vets,you are doing a great job with your cockatiels.Please do keep us updated.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I hope he makes a quick and full recovery!


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

Well we got back home less then two hours ago , and Benito is back home also !
Im glad he takes his medecine without any fuss's.

And thank you , I know the drive was long but hes worth every second of it. I love how people here arent calling me crazy driving half across the province to get my bird treated. As non-animal lovers (my friends and family) think we are CRAZY. Or as I like to classify, soul less human beings.

Anywho ! the A.V we visited was a total sweetheart, we did an emergency visit pretty early in the morning and she was _glad_ to help. I tipped her very well. I was grateful that she would treat my little benito so early , we shared common intrests and she was astonished to know I arrived all the way from Calgary !
I will keep everyone updated, Photos will be arriving tomorrow. 

Thank you for the love and support everyone  Means a whole lot !


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Awww I am so happy about my craziness  Of course you drove that long i would have done the same


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I love how people here arent calling me crazy driving half across the province to get my bird treated.


We LOVE people like you. It's the people that won't make the effort that drive us nuts.


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## lokilinda (Oct 26, 2011)

So happy for you and your Benito.  No doubt with all the love, attention and antibiotics of course, he'll make a full recovery. And yes, you gotta love the passion and support from all on this forum.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear you found a vet who was able to help Benito. Wishing Benito a speedy recovery.


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## smays810 (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm so happy he is going to make a full recovery. Sorry to hear about that rude vet, but I'm glad you took the time to take Benito to a different vet. I would have done the same thing if it was my bird in trouble. I think of her as my child and people think i'm crazy too, but I love her, so I don't care, they can think whatever they want.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

You are the kind of person we appreciate more than anything! Most people wouldn't do that drive for a pet, but we are glad you did!


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

srtiels said:


> I found some saved info on my laptop....on things you can do for liver support whether you actually have a problem or not. The following will also work towards maintaing good liver health until you can get some tests done. Inb regards to the liver you have to have bloodwork done so that you can find out if there are elevated liver enzymes. Since you are also on a peeleted diet I would also ask to see if the uric acid levels are within normal range.
> 
> STOP any cereals until you find out what is wrong with him. Many cerals contain iron and the liver will store them and the iron can build up in the liver and impair function.
> 
> ...


 I really wanted to say thank you , You put so much effort and knowledge trying to help my Benito. It means a whole lot. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. 

As for everyone else huge Thank you's to you all. And huge air hugs too everyone who gave their advice. Benito is doing much better for a day’s progress , and im glad he wasnt too sick to start off with. Hes acting normal with his occasional tired sick boy naps. 

I tried to get a photo of him outside his cage because he LOVES the camera. But today he was not in the mood. He was snapping and was ready to destroy the lens ; So I knew he didnt want one taken , and I wasnt going to against his will. All he wanted to do was cuddle, and did not want to act flashy for the camera.

Heres the best photo I could get today, one of him all alone in his quarantine cage. Poor baby wanted out! 
I am hoping to snap better ones of him tomorrow.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I'm glad he is better He is a very handsome pearl.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


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## missy pa (Nov 21, 2011)

I have been following this thread and I am so HAPPY hes much better,Benito is very lucky to have you.You are a great example of a great owner.:clap::


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## Simbah (Feb 9, 2012)

Ide love to also Thank you Tielfan , you were so generious with your posts. You helped Benito a whole lot !

Luckily he has fully recovered , and is competly fine now.
Thank you for your sweet and loving posts everyone. 
Lots of love from the Flock and family.


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