# Problems with the youngest chick of the clutch~~~



## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

The youngest chick (chick #4) is six days old and it is growing soooo slow!!!! It weight about 10 grams even with some food in its crop~~~~

I think it have sour crop, cause it seems to emptying slowly or maybe the parent keeps on feeding it, so that the crop never empty.

If it have sour crop, what can I do??? besides bringing it to a vet~~~

Is it normal for the youngest chick to grow slower than the rest of the clutch???

Any advice for taking care of this chick???

Btw, I do handfeed it once in a while to make sure that he is recieve some food, it is because the parent tends to forget about their youngest chick~~~~

There are 2 pics 
One: crop is not full
Two: after handfed


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The last chick in the clutch 'does' get fed by the parents...But...it gets fed more solid food that the older chicks get. With the older chicks the parents would hear them getting ready to hatch a day or 2 before they actually hatched and eat, and retain food in their crop so that it was softer and easier for the new hatchling to digest. By the time the last chick hatches they don't do this. They feed the chick the same as the older birds, which is harder for the new chick to digest. This results in slower growth, stunting and/or death. The new chicks crop may look filled, but it mat have a harder feel because the parents may not be giving it enough fluids.

Assist feeding several times a day while the chick is in the nest will help alot.

As to sour crop... Does the baby look like the one below? Can you post a pix of yours?
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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, Srtiels, I really hope you can help me!!! It looks so helpless, I really want to save it, but I don't have the money to bring it to the vet!!! What kind of home remedy that I can help it. I already read the article that you send me but it looks so complicated, I don't want to do anything that I am not confident. I am afraid that I will hurt it!!!

Note: It is already day 6 and it only weight 5 grams!!! I am really worried!!!

Please help!

I added some photos at the beginning of the thread, hope you can see it~~


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Ah...a vet is not really going to help with this with the exception on putting it on antibiotic, which in it's condition can be hard and/or damaging to the liver.

From your pix the baby is a lutino. It is showing classic signs of stunting (illus below) What you are going to have to do is handfeed it small amounts at a time because the crop has shrunk, and every few hours. Do not try to overfeed to compensate for it being little because overfeeding is a major cause for slow crop. Also when over feeding the chick is using it's energies to digest...wherever those energies would be better used for proper assimulation of food given. Rule of thumb when working with a chick like this: Give only 10% of body weight at each feeding. it's not much, but enough not to contribute to secondary problems....and as the chick grows gradully increase the amount fed per feeding.

OK...you have the article I sent. Mix up a batch of the Spice Remedy. At each feeding add a pinch to the formula. The condition that your baby is in it is going to have a slight bacterial and yeast/fungal problem, and the Spice Remedy will help the chicks body to help correct this.


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

thnx for the tips!!!! I am so thankful to bump into you!!! Wish that you are in Canada so that I can learn more from you!!! You are amazing!!! I will update you later with some pictures of this baby cockatiel~~~


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thank you. It'll take a couple days to see improvement. The skin will be the first change with a healthier pinker look to it. The wings and feet will length. The eyes and nares will not appear so buldgy.

Locally I have been a mentor to a couple of new breeders. Please don't let distance keep you from asking questions though :0

Good Luck with thew baby

Susanne


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## Rocky's Rose (Jun 24, 2008)

My little Squishy is also really small for her age she is 36 days old but she still has yellow fluff. Is she stunted??


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Rocky's Rose

PLEASE...can you post some pix's of her? I can tell more by looking at her.


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## Rocky's Rose (Jun 24, 2008)

Yup i can i just don't want to interupt Hudson's thread. I've been asking on my thread but no one has answered me....here is some of her from yesterday (35 days old)




























And here is one of her brother who is the same age











Sorry Hudson if I'm interupting but i think my baby is growing too slowly too.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

My apoligies...I haven't been following the thread 

Yes she looks like she may have had problems when she was younger. She is very stunted for her age. I had a baby named Little Bit that was 41 grams at 3 months old. She looked like a miniature cockatiel. By a year old she grew a little and got up to 75 grams. By 2 about 85 grams. A friend has her now, and she has been a Mommy, and all her babies have been normal sized.

It will take a long while for your little one to grow...and she will always be slightly smaller than normal. 

Note...just because she is undersizzed she will most likely be healthy.

Just a few questions. Is she still being handfed? If so how much and how often? I found with the smaller ones the theory of 'Less is More' helps them gain geight and size. The MAX you should feed her at each feeding is 10% of body weight.

She's a cutie 

Susanne


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## Rocky's Rose (Jun 24, 2008)

srtiels said:


> My apoligies...I haven't been following the thread
> 
> Yes she looks like she may have had problems when she was younger. She is very stunted for her age. I had a baby named Little Bit that was 41 grams at 3 months old. She looked like a miniature cockatiel. By a year old she grew a little and got up to 75 grams. By 2 about 85 grams. A friend has her now, and she has been a Mommy, and all her babies have been normal sized.
> 
> ...


No she is still parent fed. I didn't pull them because i still have to go to school. Thank you soo much, I was wondering why she was so small. I was also wondering if she would be smaller when she grew up. Thank you srtiels so much and thank you Hudson for letting me intrude alittle bit, good luck with your chicks and i hope they grow up stong. I have someone who wants a baby and this little girl is the only one left available unless i breed the parents again.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...if she is still being parent fed there is hope yet. Part of stunting is dehydration. I went thru your other thread and yes she definitely was a stunted chick when younger. She had food in her crop, but it looked hard packed. The parents are feeding very solid foods and are/were giving the chicks minimal amounts of fluid mixed with the foods as they regurgitated to feed the chicks. The other baby is handling this OK...but your little one isn't. What you might want to do is to suppliment feed her a thin formula a couple times a day just to add fluid to the crop. Massage the crop to work this into what is in there. The skin also will absorb water. You can wet her feet a couple times aday, and also blot several areas of her body that are not completely feathered. Keep her in a warm room when you do this. 

Susanne


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

Don't worry, Rocky's rose~~~~feel free to use the thread. I am glad that we can learn from more experienced breeder!!! I just got some spices after work, so now I will mix the spices and add the spices into the handfeeding formula. Hope it works, and we shall do whatever we can to save the lives of the helpless cockatiel babies!!!!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Huson

I just looked again at the pix's you had emailed me. You mentioned that when the crop is emptied it still has a little stuff at the bottom. If you feel this between your fingers is it anything like the illus. below?

Susanne
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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

Sorry I cannt see the image here can you send it to my email?? [email protected]

thank you


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

there is an undersore between huson and mak, thnx!!!!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I emailed it...

You can also review alot of pix I posted (and others) at mu Photobucket album: 
http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other birds/?start=all


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

I am not sure, but definity there is some mass stayed at that the bottom of the crop. 



What should I do???



Should I feed 3-4 drops of vinegar (50%) and massage the crop gently?

What should be the temperature of the vinegar and what does it mean by 50%??? 

When should I do this??? After the crop is empty???


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

where to buy apple cider vinegar??? any grocery shop? like sobeys?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes...you can get it at a grocery store...

Susanne


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

srtiels, I got a problem, I realized that, there is something wrong with its crop.

After I added 3-4 drops of ACV its crop enlarges soo much that it looks soo awkward~~~the crop is filled with air!!!! 

The crop often enlarge and deflat then enlarge then deflat with air~~~is it normal???

This also happens when I hand feed it~~the crop fill with air~~~


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*A FEW QUESTIONS*

Is it gulping air as it is being fed? 

After it is fed does the crop deflate? 

Is the crop normal sized now or over-sized? 

What is the weight?

How much is it being fed, and frequency?

Is it alone or with others?

Can you post any pix's?
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Does it look like any of these birds in this link?

http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other birds/?start=all


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

One more question....very important. Is the baby fully empty by the next feeding?

And another thought...when you massage the air out of its crop what does the breath smell like? there should be no oder...just the formula smell and/or spices if used.


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

Honestly, I didn't smell anything, maybe I have a bad nose~~~how close should I place my nose to the mouth, in order to smell anything if it is sour crop?

After I handfed, its crop will deflat, but it takes a longer time~~~

It really depends on when I look at the crop, because the crop does get smaller when the air is out, which takes time. However, it is oversized when I am handfeeding it.

I haven't weight the chick yet, because last time I weight it was around 2 am and it weights 5 grams with empty crop, so I am waiting until 2am again to see did it gain any weight after 24 hours.

Usually I handfeed it,every 2-3 hours, depending on how fast it consume the food in its crop, because I don't want the food to rot inside the crop
So should I still handfeed it even if there is some food left in the crop from the previous feeding????

Now, it is in a hatcher:
http://www.homesteadersupply.com/store/images/Chick Bator.jpg
I maintained the temperature around 94-96 Farhrenheit since it is still small like a 1-5 days old chick
I also have a separate water compartment inside to allow the chick have some humidity.

I will post some picture later today, once I found the batteries!!!

Btw, I really want to thnx you again for helping~~~if it survives it is all your because of you~~~~hugzzzz


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

Btw, you have so many pictures there, which picture are you referring to?


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, I feed around 1cc = 1ml and followed the instruction on the bag for the portion of mixing the handfeeding formula with water.

I maintained the feeding schedule and temperature from this website.

http://www.cockatiel.org/articles/handfeeding.html


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...1cc is too much for a 5 gram baby. Remember 10 % of body weight as a guide right now. So you would feed 1/2 of 1cc. And increase as the baby gains weight. Let the crop *fully * empty between feedings. In your case you will feed no later than a 1/2 hr. after the crop is fully empty. This will allow you to see how long it takes the chick to digest, and you can plan your feeding schedule accordingly. By observation determine the feeding schedule best for your baby. 

The info given in most articles tend to be generic and pertain to normal healthy babies. Your baby has had difficulties...thus you will have to adapt/taylor the feeding amounts and schedules.

Is the baby doing alot of crying? Sometimes that could also be a cause of it swallowing air and inflating the crop. A gassy bloated crop *in additon* to food in it, and slower digestion is a 'Red Flag' that something is going on.

Oh...this is aside from the facts, and info in the article. Over the years I have learned to *Never* feed more than 10cc. I have learned that 'Less is More' and the baby is nice, large and healthy when weaned. Most formula are formulated for the right balance of nutrients for the growing bird. When feeding excessive amounts of formula problems can occur, such as weight loss, unsatisfied screaming babies, yeast and/or sour crop problems, and organ function can be hindered from the excessive vitamins/nutrients.

Hmmm...in reading your I thought about the following:

_It really depends on when I look at the crop, because the crop does get smaller when the air is out, which takes time. However, it is oversized when I am handfeeding it._

Could what you are actually seeing be just the crop filling up?


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

I realized that the baby never empties its crop completely~~~I has been several hours
so I decided to give 0.5 cc even it didn't completely empties its crop~~
What should I do now, since it does not completely empties its crop completely


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

I realized that the baby never empties its crop completely~~~I has been several hours
so I decided to give 0.5 cc even it didn't completely empties its crop~~
What should I do now, since it does not completely empties its crop completely

Also, my other 3 chicks are almost 2 weeks should I take them out to a brooder and handfeed and place chick number 4 back with the parents?So the parents can take care of chick number 4 only?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yikes!!!...it sounds like you definitely have slow crop. What little was in there is probably soured, and the next feeding of fresh formula on the bad turns the new formula bad too.

Oh boy...I am at odds on how to answer. I use very advanced methods which would be hard for someone new to breeding to do or have the supplies for. First I would empty the crop, and rather than feeddo fluid therapy (Sub-Q, meaning subcutaneus fluids...which are injections under the skin.

Do you have any experienced breeders locally that would know how to empty and flush out a crop, AND also show how to do Sub-Q fluids. Plan B if you go to a vet *request this to be done* and to also ask to be shown exactly how to do it yourself, at home and the supplies needed.

In the interim see if you can get some Papaya tablets and crush one up and add a pinch to the formula. OR go to a large Petstore that has supplies for dogs and ask if they have *PROZYNE* Either will act as a digestive enzyme to break down (pre-digests) food and aid in nutrient absorption. a tiny pinch is added to the formula (when the chick is empty).. First mix the formula normal thickness prior to adding. Digestive enzymes will thin down the formula, don't thicken back up.

Plan C...if the parents will accept and feed the baby it is worth a try. You would have to monitor them so make sure the chicks crop is not hard-packed (feels hard) and might have to supplement fluids.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

I have had a couple of babies with slow crop and I reversed the situation with a watered down formula with a probiotic added. At first the crops were hard and I had to massage them a little to help break down the food they weren't digesting. I use Ornabac (a probiotic) for this situation. It is readily available at most pet stores but there are many good one available on line. It provides them with the beneficial bacteria to digest properly.


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## huson (Feb 23, 2009)

To srtiels:

I am wondering was the is the name of the rubber catheter that are shown on your pictures.

Where can I get the catheter?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The catheter was size 12FR. The most common Mfg. is Bard (brand) Locally they can be found at most medical supplies.

Recently I started using the Flexoject Silicone dispencing tips. (size 2.2 and 3.2) for tube/crop feeding babies from new hatchlings to weaning. 

http://www.earmaxx.com/products.php


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