# Issues in the nest



## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

So I've lost most of the clutch of Hershey's and Snowball's. Not really sure what is going on this time. New boxes, different (kaytee bedding) bedding this year, FSL lighting and cuttlebone, good diet (same diet from first time.) All the eggs hatched. That's what's getting me. So I'm wandering...is Hershey a bad mother? The first time they had the help of Fuzzy so I'm thinking, did Hershey actually do anything? Are these babies starving because Snowball is trusting her to do her job? I checked her droppings...they are normal (I compared them to srtiels site). So now I'm lost. I've been assist feeding, but last night I got home later then usual and I think that's why I lost the 3rd baby. Any ideas? All the babies look totally healthy (great intestines, chirping, everything) til I find them gone. Their beaks are bruised which I know means they were weak and mom/dad got frustrated and tried to feed them anyways. So confused...


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Is it possible that there's some kind of infection in your flock that doesn't bother the adults but is affecting the babies, and they become too weak to feed? It would be a good idea to get a necropsy on the latest baby and/or a vet exam on the parents. The first step in preventing future problems is to identify what's going wrong and fixing it. If your babies were healthy and well-fed otherwise they wouldn't die just because you were late with one assist feeding.

How did the babies' physical development compare with the normal development in Susanne's article at http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html ? That baby was bigger than average so your chicks would probably weigh less, but the feather development and general growth should have been similar.

P.S. Another possibility is that a lethal gene is involved. Lethal genes can sometimes make a healthy-looking individual die suddenly and unexpectedly.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

They never got old enough to develop much, the two I have left are only 2 days and one day old. They did grow (the 3rd one lived to be three days old) but I don't know. Luckily I do still have the baby's body, so I'll take it to the vet today. I wasn't very satisfied with the last two necropsies they did for me (pretty much told me what they found but couldn't say what had caused it or give me anything to help the rest of the flock). But I have to figure out what is going on here!


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## minischn (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry that's terrible. I hope you find the problem. I remember all the problems you had last year. It's so sad ...


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

So sorry. I hope you can figure out what happened and that the other babies do okay.


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## RexiesMuM (Sep 7, 2011)

Sorry hun , hopefully this necropsy can give you an idea of whats going on and if its something that can be fixed


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

This year is so strange... Srtiels had mentioned in my post about the possibility of erratic weather playing a part. I'm thinking that may be a big thing here as right now it is 49 degrees out! Fahrenheit of course! At night it will drop to the low 20s or teens.. but we really should be having a lot colder weather.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Roxy....I'm not sure what is happening. Can you go back a couple generations to find aout anything about their background. Keep in mind that even if they were bought from different people, *who* did those people get their birds from? There could be a possibilty that they might be related.

Aside from the above, I have learned that a vitamin E deficiency is the main cause for weak chicks. Grrrr...The USDA changed their site. But I found a link on it where you can see what foods (it's a human foods site, but many foods we give are birds would be listed) contain Vitamin E: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22114


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Aside from the above, I have learned that a vitamin E deficiency is the main cause for weak chicks. Grrrr...The USDA changed their site. But I found a link on it where you can see what foods (it's a human foods site, but many foods we give are birds would be listed) contain Vitamin E: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22114
> __________________


Thank you! I'm going to do some research on this and use it. From what I know of their history, Hershey came from a breeder in Rancho Bernardo, CA. Her parents were not like to like (he gave me a card and I lost it in the move, its in a box somewhere in the house). Snowball came from a pet store in San Diego, but the breeder knew the owner of the pet store (I met him in their parking lot to pick Hershey up) SO there is still a possibility of them being related. The only reason I doubt this is because they have FIVE healthy chicks. Vit E deficiency sounds like it might be possible. I'm going to look into it in any case. Also taking the baby for the necropsy on Friday, I ran out of time today and tomorrow I wont be home all day thanks to school. To be honest, I don't expect these chicks to make it since their siblings didn't, but hopefully I can find out what's wrong and have successful future clutches.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Sunflower seeds are an excellent source of vitamin E according to http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=111 This news is going to make a lot of cockatiels very very happy.

If your tiels eat pellets and Nutriberries they would get some vitamin E there too. I hope the problem is something as simple as this and all your future clutches are happy and strong.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...from what I am learning Vit. E is a fat soluble nutrient that gets stored in the liver. Protiens and lipids are also formed in the liver and are then transported thru the bloodstream to the follicles in the ovary, which form yolk spheres and fluids with nutients. 

You might go thru the breeding record list of nutrient deficiencies to research the nutrients in all foods given.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

So I was doing some research (with Casey's help) and it turns out sunflower seeds are high in Vit. E. Not one of my birds eat sunflower seeds, I always end up throwing those out when I change their bowls. So, how do I get them to eat them?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Sunflower seeds are an excellent source of vitamin E *
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Yes, very true. And another point, it is the body fat that stores a reserve of the fat soluble nutients. If you have a breeding hen that does not have fat reserves (this does not mean an over-weight bird, but a bird deprived of foods containing fat sources in the diet) then when she needs to draw on these nutrients they are not there, thus it can have an impact on the egg or new hatchling.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Have you tried offering sunflower with the shells removed? Some tiels have never learned how to crack off the shells.

Once the shells are off it's easier to use the standard tricks: sprinkling the seeds on top of a food that they really love so they have to touch the sunflower to get the good stuff, holding it in your hand for them to eat, spreading it on a table and tapping your finger in it like a pecking bird, and pretending to eat it yourself. Or maybe REALLY eating it yourself - sunflower is delicious.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Haha tielfan, yes it is!!! Guess I'm buying a bag of only sunflower seeds tomorrow and shelling them. I'll keep a bag of shelled seeds in their room and add it to their food every day. Tricky lil buggers I have!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There's an easier way to do it if you have a natural-foods grocery with bulk bins. They usually have human-quality raw unsalted sunflower seed with the shells already off, and you can buy as much or as little as you want.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

That's great to know thanks!!! Gonna check out the store tomorrow in between classes! So this makes me wonder...formula has vit e in it right? So by feeding it to the babies am I helping them at all?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*formula has vit e in it right? So by feeding it to the babies am I helping them at all?*
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This is like closing the gate after the horse escaped. The deficiency affects the chick during development and prior to hatch. I have to check but it has to do with tissue and muscle, which would include organs in the growing body.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

So it might not save them at all, only prolong their lives...seems like each one lives one day longer than the last. And this could be affecting ALL three clutches. Crap, why are my birds so lazy?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

A small pinch of garlic powder added to the formula would be a better source of the E because it also contains selenium that will help strength muscle tone after the fact.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I've been adding the spice remedy to the formula when I feed it so that's gonna help right?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You know what I used to do years ago when I was studying and practicing natural and holistic routes for my birds. I would put a peeled clove/piece of garlic in the cage when I set them up. It is an excellent source of selenium, A,B,C and E which I thought at the time covered the bases if I was lacking in those nutrients. The birds that needed it would nibble on it, especially the hens prior to laying. After the babies hatched the parents would also take tiny nibbles the first week of life. Since it seemed to work well I started adding garlic powder to the formula of the babies I pulled for handfeeding.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

roxy culver said:


> I've been adding the spice remedy to the formula when I feed it so that's gonna help right?


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yes...the spice remedy would work also  In fact it was from my garlic venture with the parents that I came up with the Spice remedy.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Update on babies...older one is 4 days old now at 12g and younger one is 3days old at 10g. This feels good to me. I'm going to continue the assist feeds (they made it through the night last night without one, but I'm not taking any chances.) I'm also going to get garlic cloves and place those in the cages. And continue to put garlic on the parents food until I see them eat the cloves on top of buying shell-less sunflower seeds for them.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Great news! Go babies! Pics.. pics.. pics..


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

*Baby Pictures!!!*

Here are the pix as promised...first one is baby 5 the other two are of baby 4. Getting so big! Did have a weird question though. I can see their tummies move when I feed them, is that normal? I've just never watched a baby's tummy before and it looked weird to me lol.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Aw so cute


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Thanks! The oldest opened his eyes this afternoon so that's encouraging. Will post pix tomorrow. 

On another note, Bubbles first baby is hatching and he hasn't absorbed his yolk yet but decided to pop the top of his egg already. And Bubbles pushed him aside and wouldn't sit on him. Luckily Squiggles will so hubby moved him under Squiggles and I wrapped him up in tissue paper. Gave him some honey water and keeping my fingers crossed. Why must they be so difficult this time?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* I can see their tummies move when I feed them, is that normal? *
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Ok....while they are digesting there will be visible movement from two areas. At the base of the crop are muscles....these muscles will churn the food to deliver it into the proventriculus which is the opening to the digestive tract. OK, just below the ribs is a hard muscle, is the ventriculus, aka:gizzard , which further grinds and processes the food before it enters the intestines. It is the gizzard that gives the chick the bottom heavy look as the muscle developes and gets larger. As the baby gets older and grows into it's shape this muscle is smaller and less noticable.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

O good I was worried that was unusual I'm glad it normal. Is there any particular reason why I've now had two chicks try to hatch before their yolk was absorbed? Maybe not enough humidity?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*any particular reason why I've now had two chicks try to hatch before their yolk was absorbed? Maybe not enough humidity?*
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Was the hatch date on time or was it early or late? What has the weather been like the last week before hatch?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

The hatch date was on time, 17 days. The weather has actually been warmer than usual, 45-50F. 

Lost oldest baby during the night, he would've been a week old today. Going to take his body in for the necropsy instead as he's bigger so it might be easier to find something out.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes....it will be interesting if they can tell something from the necropsy. Also bring a sample of the bedding just in case. I once had suspected the seed and a vet can send it for free analysis with USDA for any aflatoxins that may effect babies and not adults. This will rule out environmental related causes.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Thank you! Bubbles first baby is still absorbing the yolk, been going at this all night. We put him under Squiggles because Bubbles had pushed him aside and he was cold (hubby did this while I was at work) and Squiggles doesn't move from her eggs so I figured it couldn't hurt. He made it through the night now I just have to hope he absorbs the last of the yolk.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Im so sorry roxy


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

So sorry to hear about this.  Really, really, tough time with clutches lately.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

This has been an on-going process for us, ever since we got to WA we haven't had any lucky with babies. I just want to figure out what's wrong so I can help the rest of the babies I have on the way.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm so sorry. I hope everything goes okay with the rest.


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## RexiesMuM (Sep 7, 2011)

So sorry hun , Hopefully you can figure out whats going on . I would think weather could be a factor . It's been so weird on the west this season from winter to fall and spring like conditions and so erratic


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

It sure has...its warm here now which is SO surprising. And humidity could also be an issue, I'm gonna spray the wall of the boxes for good measure and prolly spray the parents as well. My hubby is getting so sad that none of the babies are making it again (after I figured out this issue last year, this is just confusing.) Its not the bird's fault, they're doing everything right, so I have to figure out what I'm doing wrong.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I really hope things start looking up for you. I am sure that the issues that we are having is also the humidity but also just the general weather as Srtiels has asked about. I'm curious though.. about barometric pressure.. or if that is what she is referring to besides humidity. I've never kept up on barometric pressures to see what is good or not.. but .. hmm.. just a thought I had this afternoon.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I also wandered if maybe altitude might play a role? We're at higher altitude now then we ever were in CA. 

On another note, I've got a concern. Bubbles first baby has been fully out of the egg for over 12 hrs. Hubby has hand fed him twice, since Fuzzy and Bubbles haven't fed her. But when I looked at her just now a tiny small piece of the yolk is hanging out, like she never absorbed that piece. What do I do about it? I don't want to burst it, but I don't know if after all this time he can absorb it?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Keep an eye on the yolk. The risk of it out is that it can burst and that would shock the system and kill the little one. The umbilical opening was too wide and must not have closed properly. 

As a last resort you may have to tie it (I use dental floss) off. If you have any human antibiotics in pill form (or even bird meds, even liquid like baytril), what I have done is crush a 1/2 one into powder and coated with a fine dusting the area after I tied it off.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

OK I'll tie it off this morning, I don't have antibiotics, I dumped all of hubby's old pills before we moved. Would putting peroxide on it to prevent infection help? I wont do that unless its OK, but I will tie it off. Little one is super active this morning and well fed, I feel better about leaving him alone through the night.

Completely forgot, I took pictures of Snowball's only baby this morning, he feeds well so that's encouraging. Eyes are open but the lil brat wouldn't open them for pictures. Weighs 14g with crop almost empty, not as heavy as I feel he should weigh but we can work on that.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I also wandered if maybe altitude might play a role? We're at higher altitude now then we ever were in CA.


How high are you? My tiels produce well at an altitude of 3000 feet.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Aw them pics are cute


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> How high are you? My tiels produce well at an altitude of 3000 feet


I don't know, I will have to look it up and find out.


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