# Potty Training



## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

I'm trying to potty train my cockatiel...but not on command. I want him to go to his "litterbox" by himself and go potty- without being told. I read about people who taught their birds to do this on the internet but I was wondering if anyone on hear has done this? I made him a litterbox with a perch in the middle so it would be comfortable. He likes it a lot and pooped (into the litterbox) while sitting on it and I acted very excited and praised him. He look very proud and started chirping  I hope it works


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I don't think anyone here has done this and to be honest, it may work for a larger parrot but may not work with a tiel. The best way to do it though is positive reinforcement so any time he does poop in the litter box give him a treat and hopefully he'll get the idea.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

one BIG flaw that people need to think of when they think potty training is a good idea....


if they go in ONE spot or place or on command, they may hold it until then. what if you go away for a few days for vacation? what if you arent home and he really has to go? they can get sick from holding it for too long. potty training is not ideal.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

They can easily be trained to poop in their cage too so it shouldn't be a problem. If you teach them to go on command than yes, it is dangerous beacause they will wait for your command. Still, many parrot owners use the command potty training and their birds are perfectly fine. I will try it but if he doesn't get it in a couple weeks i'll give up probably


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

just warning, its not ideal and potty training generally isnt a good idea with the little guys, mainly because they poop much more frequently than the larger birds, so shorter amount of time to cause problems than with a larger bird. 

birds poop, its easy to clean, keep newspaper down where your bird frequents the most.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

I'll see how it goes...if the potty trainng makes him hold it (if poops every 30 minutes instead of 15) then I'll know it problematic. But I really do it think it's fine... you can read about it on google many people have done it, even parrot specialists.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

and also google the troubles people have had with it. is it worth risking bacterial infections to have the bird poop in a single spot?

always look at both sides of the coin...


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

Oh, I have. I read from point of views of those who support it and those who don't. Really, the only danger mentioned was them holding it in which I understand is bad. I do not want to put the bird in danger and will be careful, making sure he can and will go when he needs to


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## DannyA (Aug 11, 2012)

If the birds needs to go bad enough it'll just go it won't just hold it in forever, and you train him to fly over when he needs to go so whenever he does he just goes over and its done I don't see why people have a problem? How many peoles birds have actually gotten an infection? Cmon now lol


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

I've read 3 times what everyone said here and after a few moments of focused, zen-like reflection and contemplation  on this debate, I think the bottom lines are that:

1. Training your tiel to poop in its cage/in a litterbox in its cage may sound okay, but what about during the odd times when your tiel does not have access to its cage? (ie. you want to take your tiel out for a stroll; you need to take it to a vet; the door to the room where the cage is got closed by accident without your knowing and your tiel is now denied access to the cage)

2. It is probably likely that when a bird needs to poop, it will just do it anyway, but if the bird is trained to do it inside the cage only but is denied access to the cage, then the bird may still try to hold it in a little bit and get a bit stressed out. If this happens often enough then it may still lead to infections in the long run and impact on the bird's well-being.

So, until the day when Sunny understands me when I say "look, I prefer that you do your business inside your cage, but if you must go then you can just go anywhere because that is fine too, don't try to hold it in",  I personally choose not to mess with potty-training.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> If the birds needs to go bad enough it'll just go it won't just hold it in forever, and you train him to fly over when he needs to go so whenever he does he just goes over and its done I don't see why people have a problem? How many peoles birds have actually gotten an infection? Cmon now lol
> Edit/Delete Message


Actually they wont...that's the problem with potty training. It happens more often with command potty training, the bird will actually hold it until you tell it to go and this has caused serious issues. This type of potty training may be better, but I also think its more ideal for bigger parrots, not smaller ones like tiels and we don't encourage it on the forum. If it works, great, but I'd rather not risk it with my birds.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

its not worth the chance. also gotta think, is this bird clipped? if so they cant fly on over to their potty place, either walk, or if theyre far away from the place they have to wait for their owner to take them there. and what if the bird has to stay overnight at the vet or a bird sitter or you go on vacation and your pet sitter forgets about the potty training thing? 

there is naturally bacteria in the gut, if the poop is held in for too long, the bird can build up the bacteria and get sick. they CAN die from this, and i would bet it isnt so easy to untrain a bird to potty in a certain spot... so if your bird gets sick once and you want to change your mind, it might not be as easy as you think.

i would not do it. if a potential owner cannot handle the poop, then maybe a bird isnt an ideal pet for them.

cockatiels go poop a lot more frequently than larger parrots. so they cannot hold it for long...


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

Annie said:


> I've read 3 times what everyone said here and after a few moments of focused, zen-like reflection and contemplation  on this debate, I think the bottom lines are that:
> 
> 1. Training your tiel to poop in its cage/in a litterbox in its cage may sound okay, but what about during the odd times when your tiel does not have access to its cage? (ie. you want to take your tiel out for a stroll; you need to take it to a vet; the door to the room where the cage is got closed by accident without your knowing and your tiel is now denied access to the cage)
> 
> 2. It is probably likely that when a bird needs to poop, it will just do it anyway, but if the bird is trained to do it inside the cage only but is denied access to the cage, then the bird may still try to hold it in a little bit and get a bit stressed out. If this happens often enough then it may still lead to infections in the long run and impact on the bird's well-being.


I thought about that too...that's why I made a convienant protable litterbox. It's a small plasic container with a perch in the middle and can be carried virtually everywhere. 

And no, Choopcheek is not flighted right now...but I keep his litterbox close by always. When his feathers grow back, he will not be clipped.

And about birds holding their poop... it's actually not that hard for them. Most owners that have larger parrots will say that their parrots do not like pooping on them. They will hold it in until they get off. My own cockatiel is exactly like that! He has NEVER pooped on my shoulder...even after sitting on it for like an hour. If he really wanted to go... he would fly off. But he just holds and poops right after he gets off. Today, he must have really wanted to go because he flew off (he never does that...he has to be forced to get off) and pooped. Basically, I'm saying that holding it in is not stressful and something many pet parrots do everyday.

I'm only trying this potty training thing because I am convinced ther is no danger. It's not that I can't tolerate cleaning after him. I know he can easily not learn the potty training and if he doesn't... I will clean after him. But I believe there is a safe way to potty train, so why not?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

How are you convinced there is no danger when we're sitting here listing all the dangers to you?


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

bjknight93 said:


> How are you convinced there is no danger when we're sitting here listing all the dangers to you?


Because I have a solution for every danger that's been listed.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

That still doesn't make it any safer or any less of a bad idea. 

If things go wrong how will you fix it? It isn't likely that you can untrain a behavior like that..and if you can the bird won't magically forget it. It is more risk than it's worth.

Buy it a birdie diaper..it works just the same without the health risks.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2012)

I have ALWAYS potty trained my cockatiels and ALWAYS will. It is EXTREMELY simple to potty train a cockatiel. It took me only a week and they were fully potty trained. Whilst training, I would simply hold the cockatiel over a garbage can or piece of paper and say "go potty" and he would potty. Birds are smart and they catch on quickly. 

I'm sorry I don't mean to sound rude, but to those who say this "causes serious problems"... I find that laughable. It does not cause problems.

I will potty train my new cockatiel as well. However, this time I will be purchasing him a birdie diaper as it wil be less hassle when taking him on road trips or outings etc or if I'm on business calls I don't want to be saying "go potty" every 15 minutes!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It does not ALWAYS cause problems. But it has the possibility to cause serious health problems..you want to risk the death of your bird to keep it from pooping on you? I'm sorry, but poop is part of owning a bird. It's not that hard to clean up and it comes out of clothes and everything very easily. Again, it is not worth the risk for the reward.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2012)

It is also not hard to potty train the bird nor harmful. Speak to my vet who handles birds in his practice. Making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I have a dog. You had better believe she is potty trained. Thus, I will do the same with any pet. Even a bird. There is no difference.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Because I have a solution for every danger that's been listed


My only question is...if the bird gets sick because of this (and I'm not saying that it always happens but it does) will you be able to pay the vet bill?



> I have a dog. You had better believe she is potty trained. Thus, I will do the same with any pet. Even a bird. There is no difference.
> Edit/Delete Message


Dogs and birds are totally different just like humans and birds are different. But its bad for humans to hold it too...that's how UTIs happen. Using the go potty method is great if you're going to be with the bird 24/7. But if you aren't (like I'm not) then cleaning up after the bird isn't a bad thing.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

I fail to see why exactly I would be required to stay with the bird 27/7? I'm sorry but your argument makes no sense whatsoever. I merely only use the "go potty" command whilst the bird is actually on me.

Obviously the bird is not going to be holding it in at any time. I simply place it over a garbage can when I feel it might have to go. If I froget to do so, you ahd better believe I will end up with poop on me.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Juliet said:


> It does not cause problems.





> It is also not hard to potty train the bird nor harmful.


Please don't make concrete statements on matters concerning health when it is not always true.

http://www.parrotchronicles.com/askavet/pottytrainingabird_askavet.htm



> ...although it is possible to train a parrot to defecate on verbal command, this method is dangerous. Occasionally, a bird may be so eager to please that it will incur life-threatening kidney damage waiting for that verbal command. This becomes an issue if the owner is ill or injured or must go out of town. A forgotten instruction to command the bird to defecate has proved fatal on at least one documented occasion (Athan 50).


 from Guide to a Well-behaved Parrot

Also, we usually do not allow links to other forums to be posted here. But I feel this one is totally neccessary since this was already discussed there (google search) and this is an important subject to be posted on: http://forums.avianavenue.com/safety-avenue/20749-potty-training-dangerous.html

If any of the other staff members have a problem with the AA link, please remove it and contact me in the staff section of the forum.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Obviously the bird is not going to be holding it in at any time. I simply place it over a garbage can when I feel it might have to go. If I froget to do so, you ahd better believe I will end up with poop on me.


Then you aren't talking about what I'm talking about. There are people who have trained their birds to only go potty when told to do so (the "go potty" method I was talking about) and the OP is talking about teaching her bird to use a litter box only. All we are saying is to use caution when teaching the litter box method because if the bird associates the box with potty time and can't get to the box (a door gets closed, the box isn't in the cage for some unforseen reason) the bird will eventually go, yes, but not before its held it as long as it possibly can. That is where the issue lies.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

Yes, I was referring to another method of potty training. I have never tried to train a cockatiel to potty in a certain area as I didn't feel I could successfully do it.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

you also refuse to accept any mess. i am sorry but it is my honest opinion that if you cant handle a few seed hulls on the ground and cannot handle poop, for the sake of the bird you should think twice and stick with a dog.


it is potentially VERY dangerous to potty train a bird in any way. 

having had a bad UTI from holding my OWN bladder too long, i know from experience that it is horribly cruel to risk doing that to your own pet just for the selfish reason that you dont want to deal with it pooping somewhere you dont want. 


buy a flight suit if you hate poop so much, its easier and much SAFER and LESS RISK

http://www.avianfashions.com/


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

Speak to my vet who handles birds in his practice. He and many other other vets will disagree with you. The way I'm potty training the bird is completely HARMLESS.

Yes, I am a clean person, which is why I'm trying to figure out how the best possible way to setup the cage to eliminate as much mess as possible. THANK YOU!

EDIT: I never mentioned I "refuse to accept any mess". That is merely an unappreciated and inaccurate assumption.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

birds are messy, and im sure there are many pet owners who've had vets give bad advice as well.... dont ALWAYS trust what a vet says just because they have a degree.

its dangerous and simple as that.


people who dont like mess should NOT own birds


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

.. and you got your expertise from where? I am signing out from this thread. It's becoming rather silly.

Disagree if you wish.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I know plenty of vets who deal with birds and don't know anything about them..they just take them to get more patients and $$$. I'm not saying your vet is one of them, but he was probably misinformed on this issue. I'm sure when he has a bird come to him that dies from holding itself he will change his outlook and will recommend differently to his patients.

And Juliet, the picture you've posted early about the "mess" around your bird cage was very small. If I had that small amount of mess around my cage I'd find a way to kiss the moon. If that amount of seed mess bothers you, then birds aren't the right pet for you. They are messy and they poop without regard to the area they're in. It is natural and it should not be changed for your own benefit.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

This is my final comment in this thread. Again, the bird NEVER holds it in. Please reread my previous posts on this topic.

It most certainly is NOT harmful in the way I am doing it. You are fully entitled to your opinion.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Your method is not, but we are staying on topic of the original poster's method of potty training..which can be very harmful.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2012)

Apologies I misread the thread. At least we finally agreed on something.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

roxy culver said:


> Then you aren't talking about what I'm talking about. There are people who have trained their birds to only go potty when told to do so (the "go potty" method I was talking about) and the OP is talking about teaching her bird to use a litter box only. All we are saying is to use caution when teaching the litter box method because if the bird associates the box with potty time and can't get to the box (a door gets closed, the box isn't in the cage for some unforseen reason) the bird will eventually go, yes, but not before its held it as long as it possibly can. That is where the issue lies.


Ok, let me make myself clear. (Please do not think I'm trying to sound mean. I'm just trying to get my point across clearly. I'm not trying to sound mean at all). The bird will know to poop in the cage AND in the litterbox (which will be brought everywhere). There is VERY LITTLE CHANCE that it will at some point not have access to a pooping place. And if something ever happens that it does have to hold it in one time... it's really not a big deal. Like I said, my parrot (and many others) do not poop on shoulders and will hold their poop in for a hour or more until they get off, they do this on a daily basis. The birds CHOSE to do this! I'm sure they know what they're doing. In the wild, many parrots do not poop in their nests. They hold it in for a long time. Nothing happens. You guys really are making mountains out of molehills. AND THERE IS LITTLE CHANCE MY COCKATIEL WILL EVER HAVE TO EVER HOLD IT IN. 

Cats are forced to use a litterbox and I'm sure it's not good for them to hold it in, either. But no one wories about them getting trapped in a room because it won't kill the cat to hold it in for a little. They will poop anyway if it gets to a dangerous level.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

one thing about your theory. in the wild, cats DO choose a certain spot to go and bury it... and thus our indoor cats do to. get your facts straight before trying to prove a point.


second, is it really worth chancing an infection and vet bills over? if your dad does not like birds, i am sure he wont like paying vet care for one either.


i would watch your tone as it can be interpreted many different ways.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

DallyTsuka said:


> one thing about your theory. in the wild, cats DO choose a certain spot to go and bury it... and thus our indoor cats do to. get your facts straight before trying to prove a point.
> 
> 
> second, is it really worth chancing an infection and vet bills over? if your dad does not like birds, i am sure he wont like paying vet care for one either.
> ...


That's the problem with the internet. It's very hard to get the right tone across (of course because you dont use your voice) that's why I tried to make it clear I wasn't trying to talk like that. And in the wild, many parrots DO chose not to poop in their nest and do it outside. Dogs get trained to, but in the wild they poop wherever. And I still don't see how it's chancing an infection. Should I not allow my cockatiel on my shoulder then? Because he will not poop there. And my dad acutally loves birds... just not as pets. I really am I friendly person... I had no idea people would get so angry over this. I do not like sounding mean.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

And wild cats always have access to poop, indoor cats do risk getting shut in a room.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

but wild cats do have a specific place they choose to go as the litter box is an instinctive behaviour for cats, not a man trained one...


anyways, the reason why they can get sick is there is bacteria in the poop. holding the poop longer than normal builds up that bacteria and it can become risky as the levels of bacteria become dangerously imbalanced and the body cannot fight off the negative bacteria and the bird gets sick. 

when you hold your pee in longer than you should, there is bacteria in your pee. the bacteria builds up (usually e. coli in this case here) and the body cannot fight it as well because its higher than normal, thus a bacterial infection happens and people get urinary tract infections, some can be severe and affect the kidneys. THIS can happen in birds too because they too hold in feces, urine, and urates and many organs can be severely affected in this. i have held my bladder very long and i ended up very sick from it and in a LOT of pain for several days. its not a joke and it is a very real risk. all i did was hold a very full bladder for an hour looking for a bathroom at a fireworks event! from experience, this risk is not ideal for your bird. you risk kidney and gastrointestinal infections in your bird if they by chance hold it longer than they should.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*And I still don't see how it's chancing an infection. *
-------------------------------------

The cloaca is the end of the digestive tract. While processed food (feces) is in there the skin tissues will still try to absorb nutrients *and fluids. If the feces is in the cloaca too long, and the tissues have drawn alot of moisture from the feces it they could get sticky or hard and adhere to the skin, and cause an impaction that can prevent the bird from passing feces. Then the intestines will impact and swell, compounding the problem, and they also will absorb fluids thru the tissue, and if not recognized good bacteria turned pathogenic and the tissues absorb this into the bloodstream. One other problem with an impaction of the cloaca is that it will put pressure on the kidneys. if this is ongoing this can lead to kidney failure.

The above is something that HAS happened to me from a bird withholding their droppings. It is also a rare incident, but it is something to be aware of.

In regards to potty training your bird. You might want to make several litter boxes to have placed inside his/her cage and also in several locations in the room/area where you are also at when the bird is out.

I would also suggest that you empty the litterboxes daily. One thing that tiels will do if they are stressed is to pick at and eat some of their droppings. http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/eating-droppings.html*


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> And in the wild, many parrots DO chose not to poop in their nest and do it outside.


This is true and captive tiels do this as well, BUT they can leave said nest at any given time to poop in the cage. They are not being forced to sit in the box and not poop. 

As I said before, larger parrots go longer inbetween poops. Tiels need to poop on average about every 15min. So a larger parrot holding it for an hour is probably not uncommon.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

I don't need any litterboxs in the cage. He can poop freely in his cage. Litterbox is out of cage time only. The reason I said I don't see a chance of infections is because he will not have to hold it because he will always have access to a pooping place. And do you guys honestly think I shouldn't allow him on my shoulder since he wil hold it in for an hour (or longer) there?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Who said not to put him on your shoulder? I must've missed it.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

You shouldn't allow him to hold it for more than 20 minutes.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Just put a towel on your shoulder and be done with it! Sheeh....birds poop, that is part of the package of owning them.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

You guys basically said not to allow him on my shoulder because you said that he shouldn't hold it. But he always holds it on my shoulder. And srtiels, why should I put a towel on my shoulder if he doesn't ever poop on it?


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

And also, sometimes he holds it all by himself. He can hold it for 30 minutes... and then poops. He's not potty trained right now but he still holds it sometimes. It's a normal thing for them to do.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Kayla....you can also use the towel to potty train. He can relate to it if he is on the towel while on you it is OK to poop. In doing this you don't have to worry about if there could be any risks of holding the poop in too long. 

I have successfuly done this with some tiels in the past and my mousebirds.

Many times you can feel a subtle shift of the birds body which is a signal it has to potty. First let your bird get used to a particular (his/her own) Or the same brand paper towels to go on when he is off you. And then graduate him to your shoulder with the towel on it.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> You guys basically said not to allow him on my shoulder because you said that he shouldn't hold it.


It might be helpful to take a look at statements like this and ask yourself whether you're making yourself look silly. Of course it's OK to to let him sit on your shoulder. Not pooping on your shoulder is something that he has naturally chosen to do, not something that you have imposed on him. I'm assuming that you don't have him chained up there, so he's free to get off your shoulder and poop any time he wants to. And when he does, he'll probably be going to a random spot that he has freely chosen, not one that he goes to because he has been trained to go there. Under these circumstances there won't be any need to hold it in if the assigned poop spot isn't accessible.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

tielfan said:


> It might be helpful to take a look at statements like this and ask yourself whether you're making yourself look silly. Of course it's OK to to let him sit on your shoulder. Not pooping on your shoulder is something that he has naturally chosen to do, not something that you have imposed on him. I'm assuming that you don't have him chained up there, so he's free to get off your shoulder and poop any time he wants to. And when he does, he'll probably be going to a random spot that he has freely chosen, not one that he goes to because he has been trained to go there. Under these circumstances there won't be any need to hold it in if the assigned poop spot isn't accessible.


I'm the one sounding silly? Wow. Here, just listen to yourself (or all you guys, as a whole):

You say: Potty training is bad becuase they need to go every 15 minutes unlike larger parrots.

I say: My cockatiel holds it for an hour or longer on my shoulder.

You say: He's free get off my shoulder and poop any time he wants to.

I say: He's free to poop in his cage and access a litterbox anytime he wants to. In the shoulder case he has to get off my shoulder to poop. In the potty training case he has to get on the litterbox box to poop which is always near by (when he's outside of the cage). It's the same thing!

Yet you say not to potty train him but "Of course it's OK to to let him sit on your shoulder. " Really, if you look at it... you sound quite silly.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Here's the bottom line: you know the risks and advantages of potty training and you get to make your own decision about whether you want to do it or not. Just don't expect to get any helpful hints about it here, because so far there hasn't been anyone else who has spoken up in favor of the practice. 

You aren't going to change anyone's mind with the type of argument that you've been making, and apparently no one is going to change yours either. The risks are real and have been documented (although the probability of something bad happening might not be too high), and there are a variety of respectable sources who advise against the practice. You can't change that fact, and the people on this board will respect you more if you stop trying to tell us that there are no risks. Such an argument is automatically silly because you know that the people on the other side of the argument have evidence to the contrary.

It's good that you have studied the subject and are aware of the risks. If you go ahead with this, I hope you won't have any problems. But I hope that you have also studied the issue of what to do if a problem does develop, so you will be able to deal with the situation if a problem arises.

I think the real issue should be: how high is the risk of problems? If it's 1 in 10,000 then I'd say go for it honey. If it's 1 in 3 then you'd better think twice. But I'm not aware of any source that has quantified the risk, so we don't really know how much of a gamble you're taking.


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

tielfan said:


> Here's the bottom line: you know the risks and advantages of potty training and you get to make your own decision about whether you want to do it or not. Just don't expect to get any helpful hints about it here, because so far there hasn't been anyone else who has spoken up in favor of the practice.
> 
> You aren't going to change anyone's mind with the type of argument that you've been making, and apparently no one is going to change yours either. The risks are real and have been documented (although the probability of something bad happening might not be too high), and there are a variety of respectable sources who advise against the practice. You can't change that fact, and the people on this board will respect you more if you stop trying to tell us that there are no risks. Such an argument is automatically silly because you know that the people on the other side of the argument have evidence to the contrary.
> 
> ...


Ok, I think it's about time we reached the bottom line. Now, I'm not trying to change your mind...but I just have to say: yes, there has been documented evidence that potty training is kinda risky. But the thing is, most people potty train completely different than I. They use the command and the birds wait for the command to go poop. I see this as a dangerous way because when the owner is gone (i.e. at work) the bird may refuse to poop without the command. I'm pretty sure the majority documented evidence came from owners who used that type of potty training. The ONLY reason I'm doing this is because I believe my technique is safe and way different than that way. I can't imagine why he won't be able to go when he needs to. I'm always with him when he's out, so I'll make sure the litterbox is near. He can poop freely in his cage. The reason I'm saying this is not to change your mind or anything, I just don't want you to think I'm being stubborn and selfish and attempting this knowing this put the bird's health at risk.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

so.... ONLY giving the litterbox out of the cage is a problem, maybe because the "command" is not a word, but an object....


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

DallyTsuka said:


> so.... ONLY giving the litterbox out of the cage is a problem, maybe because the "command" is not a word, but an object....


I have said many times that he can poop freely in the cage.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

but by praising him when he uses the tray but not his cage might *potentially* inadvertently teach him that THATS what he has to poop in, he may begin to only associate the litter box for it, since you wont be praising him when he poops in the cage? you wont intentionally teach him to not poop in the cage, but when you are teaching him to go in one thing and no where else he will think he can only poop in one thing, THIS is what i am concerned about. especially if he has to stay overnight at a vet and he doesnt have the litterpan. it is an unnecessary risk to even attempt. if he doesnt poop on your shoulder, great and leave it at that, i would not even bother with the potty training. not much point in it...


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Now, I'm not trying to change your mind...but I just have to say: yes, there has been documented evidence that potty training is kinda risky. But the thing is, most people potty train completely different than I. They use the command and the birds wait for the command to go poop. I see this as a dangerous way because when the owner is gone (i.e. at work) the bird may refuse to poop without the command. I'm pretty sure the majority documented evidence came from owners who used that type of potty training. The ONLY reason I'm doing this is because I believe my technique is safe and way different than that way. I can't imagine why he won't be able to go when he needs to. I'm always with him when he's out, so I'll make sure the litterbox is near. He can poop freely in his cage. The reason I'm saying this is not to change your mind or anything, I just don't want you to think I'm being stubborn and selfish and attempting this knowing this put the bird's health at risk.


I haven't actually taken a stand for or against potty training. I'm just trying to point out that the situation isn't all that black and white, and there are a lot of unknowns here. We don't know exactly how high the risks are to begin with, just that the risks exist. You think your method is safer, but if this method is your own invention that hasn't been tried before then we don't know if it's safer, riskier, or exactly the same risk.

Holding it in sometimes is part of a bird's natural behavior but this is primarily a matter of breeding birds not pooping in the nest, in other words refraining from pooping within a very limited area but otherwise the world is their toilet. It isn't part of a bird's natural behavior to do their pooping in a very limited area and refrain from pooping elsewhere, and when we ask them to do this the bird doesn't understand why we like this behavior but it leads to rewards so the bird tries to do what we want. The lack of comprehension on the bird's end can lead to an unnatural "pooping psychology" that isn't really what we wanted and isn't particularly healthy for the bird. I would guess that this is the basic source of the problems that sometimes result from potty training.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm not really sure how carrying a litterbox around with your bird is more convenient than just cleaning up after it? To me, carrying something around everywhere you take your bird would be annoying.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Getting back to the idea of pooping psychology... I'm not recommending that you try to potty train your bird but if you do it, thinking about the psychology of it might help avoid pitfalls. We can only guess about what's going on inside those fuzzy heads, so this post is my best guess. It might not be correct but it seems reasonable, and there might be other explanations that I haven't thought of. 

Basically, potty training works by giving the bird an incentive (reward) and/or an unfavorable outcome (disapproval/punishment) that's powerful enough to make the bird ignore its natural urge to poop where it pleases when it pleases, and poop in a way that pleases you instead. Letting go of the internal pressure is usually its own reward, so for the training to work you probably need a bird that's very motivated by external rewards or very sensitive to owner approval and disapproval.

I think Choopcheek must be the sensitive type, because he doesn't poop on your shoulder. From what I can see with my flock, there isn't a natural prohibition on pooping on each other. It doesn't happen very often because the birds usually aren't in the right position for it, but when it does happen no one seems to care. So Choopcheek doesn't have a "flock taboo" preventing him from pooping on you, and he probably doesn't perceive your shoulder as his nest. You probably trained him not to poop on you (maybe without being aware of it) by expressing displeasure whenever he did it. The more subtle the displeasure was, the more sensitive the bird would have to be to respond to it. 

So what are the psychological factors that could lead to problems? I can think of two.

Case 1: the bird is very sensitive to owner disapproval and disappointment and not too sure about what the owner expects from him, so he only poops when the owner directs him to do it to be sure that he's going in the right place. The solution to this is to never rebuke your bird for pooping in the wrong place and to try to hide all signs of disappointment when he does it.

Case 2: the bird is so reward-driven that it seems wasteful to poop when there's no one there to reward him, so he holds it in until he has the chance to be rewarded. This means that the owner has to be present before the bird will poop, and maybe the owner will also need to cue the bird so the bird can be sure that the dump he's taking is reward-worthy. I can't think of a solution for this problem.

Moving on to other issues. If you train the bird by putting him in the litter box when you think he's about to poop, you aren't directly telling him "go poop" but you're giving him a cue that amounts to much the same thing. Any type of human prompting probably has the same pitfalls as the command method. If the litter box is a fun place to be and he likes to spend time there, there won't be any prompting if you reward him for going to the box of his own accord and coincidentally pooping while he's there. But there's still a risk of the Case 2 "don't poop unless you can get paid for it" scenario. You might need to reward him sometimes for pooping in his cage, to make sure he doesn't start thinking it isn't worthwhile to poop there; but will he poop in his cage when you aren't home?


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

I'm positive I didn't train him not to poop on my shoulder because he hasn't done it since day one. Maybe his breeder taught him... I really don't know. (He has pooped on my shoulder twice though, but those two times he directed his vent over teh floor and the poop didn't land on me. Idk if he did that on purpose or on accident? But he usually just holds it as long as he wants.) And I already do reward him in his cage once in a while with a "good birdy!".... I don't make a really big deal though, I just make sure he knows I'm pleased. And if he poops in a "forbidden area", I don't give any sort of "punishment". I just act completely indifferent and clean it up as always. And I have read of people who potty train their birds and the birds walked over to the litterbox or whatever pooping place the owner has chosen and did it by themselves- no praise necesary. Honestly though, I don't think I have a very big chance on achieveing the whole potty training thing, because he doesn't seem to care about praise a whole lot


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

our point is to be very careful. most birds will back up and poop off your shoulder, thats normal and i know mine try to do that too for me. birds have some manners lol


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## hysteriauk (Jun 24, 2012)

Zippy has no manners ... yet lol in the meantime either wetwipes or tissues do the trick


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> most birds will back up and poop off your shoulder


Will someone please explain that to my flock?


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## Loopy Lou (Jul 26, 2012)

Smokey has also never pooped on me. Mind you, we're only just getting to the stage where he will come and sit on me, but he'll fly back to his cage to poop.

However he has no problem with doing it on my laptop, on the shelves or even as he's flying around.

Oh well, it only takes half a second to clean up  

I'm that used to having budgies who poop anywhere that it really doesn't bother me. Unless they unleash one right into my cup of tea as they're flying overhead ¬.¬


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## KaylaHansa (Aug 8, 2012)

Hello everyone. Sorry, I've been gone for a while 
I'm still trying the potty training thing. I think he's starting to pick up on the fact that I like when he poops in the litterbox. When he poops in there, he seems to look at me expectantly, waiting for my praise. But other than that, he has no problem pooping where ever he feels like. Also, if I see him poop in his cage, I praise him. The reason I want to potty train him is not mainly because I hate cleaning up after him. It because I don't want him to poop on guests and in places I can't reach (like the curtain rods) once his flight feathers grow back. Also, I take him with me when I sleepover at peoples houses's (like I took him tho my sisters house) and I'm really worried he will poop at their house and the people will get mad.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

buy a flight suit. they will work best for every situation you mentioned, and its safer for the bird, plus it doubles as a harness and you can bring him outside and he doesnt have to poop on you or strangers who want to hold him 

trust me, they really work and they are cute and most birds can be trained to wear them. theyre light-weight as well

this is dally in hers, i love the flight suit and so does she






























you can buy them here:

http://www.naturechest.com/flightsuits1.html


* everyone's opinions on the matter have been stated, there is no reason to keep this thread open when things are just getting repeated and inevitably causing a heated debate.*


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

One last thing I wanted to add on a somewhat tangential note is that it's somewhat risky to take a bird to other people's houses. There are lots of things in the environment that can be harmful to birds that non-bird owners would never think of. For instance, do these people use Teflon cookware? Wear perfume? Have their houses sprayed by an exterminator? All of those things could be harmful or even deadly to your bird. As Casey said, the potty training debate has run its course, but please feel free to start another thread if you'd like to discuss how you can keep your bird safe from potential hazards.


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