# What happens when you breed like to like?



## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

I know it's frowned upon, but why exactly? Will the babies all be genetically weak or prone to health problems? Freya's parents were both whitefaces. All of my birds are, too, so I assume if she ever lays fertile eggs they should be destroyed?


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## cknauf (Aug 27, 2012)

It's generally frowned upon because of inbreeding. Breeding any two closely-related animals can result in recessive defects expressing themselves. I'm assuming that these mutation were initially stabilized by breeding the children of the ancestor together, so the original mutations have a very limited gene stock. Now that these mutations so widespread though, it's possible to outcross and reclaim some of the genetic diversity that was lost to establish the mutation, and start to breed out undesirable traits (ex. lutino baldness) that were initially carried.

From what I understand, there isn't a problem so long as the birds aren't closely related--breeding siblings or parent/child dramatically increases the chance that some detrimental trait will come through. It's just considered best practice to breed outside the morph because all whitefaces are ultimately related, all lutinos are ultimately related, and so on.


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

Okay, cool. So Freya is only inbred in the distant distant cousin sense, haha. Hopefully she'll never exhibit a strong desire to start a family with one of my boys. I'd probably be too tempted to let the eggs hatch.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It's frowned upon because, in many cases, even birds that are not related that are like-to-like will have weak babies, smaller babies, more deaths in the nest, and babies more prone to health issues.

Now you can test-breed 2 like-to-like birds and if they're babies are big and healthy, then there isn't a problem with continuing to breed them. But if you breed your like-to-like birds and they turn out to be smaller than their parents, then one can assume you are degrading the species in a way. 

This is said because breeders (good breeders) breed for big healthy babies...they want to improve the limited stock of cockatiels we have here. After all, there are no more real imports of cockatiels or other exotic birds any longer. We need to preserve and improve what we have.


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## rashid100 (Oct 3, 2012)

Weak babies, bald patches, defects and abnormalities sometimes


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

Freya seems healthy enough, I just hope she doesn't have underlying health issues.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

tsuka is a like to like baby of a bondage pair. his defects: pigeon toed and bald spot... but he was the only baby as far as we are aware... we got him at 5 months old and we never asked. we have several speculations...

like to like also can cause a higher risk of dead in shell eggs and early deaths in the nest. we suspect that could be a possible factor in the lack of tsuka's siblings. 

thats just one theory that is relevant to this discussion. both tsuka's parents were both visual pearls.


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## lilbear (Aug 2, 2012)

what about grey to grey is that okay?


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## rashid100 (Oct 3, 2012)

I think grey to grey is ok ...


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## lilbear (Aug 2, 2012)

Okay My two greys are split in so many ways i get a pearl, pied, and grey every time. This last one gave me a cinnamon Pearl  and they are all big healthy babies. But wanted to make sure.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

grey to grey is the one exception. it is the original colour.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Breeding lutino to lutino is widely frowned upon because this mutation had the most problems related to inbreeding. The frowning doesn't seem to be as widespread with other mutations, but srtiels (a VERY experienced breeder) says that in her experience it's not a good idea.


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the info, guys. I was a little worried about my baby, but I suppose if she had issues from being the baby of two whitefaces, they'd most likely already be visible. (?)

Casey, poor Tsuka...he didn't get the best start to life did he? Glad he is healthy and happy now though.


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## cknauf (Aug 27, 2012)

echolalia said:


> Thanks for all the info, guys. I was a little worried about my baby, but I suppose if she had issues from being the baby of two whitefaces, they'd most likely already be visible. (?)


That depends on what's being carried in the whiteface line. I have no idea if there's hidden nasties, so I can't tell you. I haven't heard anything about genetic organ abnormalities in cockatiels, but I'm assuming if there was some widespread problem it would be noted.




bjknight93 said:


> This is said because breeders (good breeders) breed for big healthy babies...they want to improve the limited stock of cockatiels we have here. After all, there are no more real imports of cockatiels or other exotic birds any longer. We need to preserve and improve what we have.


This, so much. It is so important to keep in mind not just the well-being of parents and offspring when breeding, but the well-being of the species as a whole. You can look at Cavalier King Charles Spaniels for an object lesson. Cavaliers have a genetic heart defect that is extremely prevalent in the breed--one breeder I talked to said that she thought it was now universal, and that there were no more lines that weren't afflicted. At least 50% of dogs are affected by age 5, and almost all by 10. The disease is now the leading cause of death in Cavaliers. It occurs in other breeds, but in Cavaliers it occurs in much younger dogs and progresses more seriously. The disease weakens the heart and leads to heart failure within a few years. We certainly don't want something so catastrophic happening in cockatiels (or any species!).


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