# Milk Thistle



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Does anyone have a dose for this? The vet told me .3ml of the liquid direct by mouth, but that looks like a huge amount to me. Can anyone give a comparison?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I don't think a dose has really been established for birds. But I did some googling and found out that one drop is .05 ml, so the suggested dose of .30 ml would be about six drops.

This does seem like a lot. I found a thread at http://www.mytoos.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=217361 where the recommended dose for an Amazon parrot was .05 ml (one drop) three times a day. There was also a thread at http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/...p/48449-Liver-problems-in-budgies-need-advice where the recommended dose for a budgie was apparently one drop twice a day. You should probably double check the dose with your vet to make sure there wasn't a mistake.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

This is once a day, so that might explain it. I will call, though. I just gave her half a dose, and she protested, snorted, and sneezed for a good 20 mins after. I'm sure I didn't aspirate her, but the drama sure scared me anyway.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Why is the vet having you give Milk Thistle?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Does she like oatmeal or mashed potatoes or anything of a similar texture? If she does, you can mix the milk thistle with a small amount of the food and offer it to her on a spoon or your finger or any other delivery method where she'll eat it quickly.

Milk thistle is usually recommended for liver support, so the vet might be concerned about possible liver issues.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Why is the vet having you give Milk Thistle?


She has been losing weight for the past couple weeks. He tried to do blood today but she bruised as soon as he put the needle in, so he couldn't get the sample. We're trying again next week, but in the meantime he wants her on milk thistle in case the bruising was related to a liver issue.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I gave her some plain oatmeal this morning and she LOVES it. Next time I'll try putting the milk thistle in it.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*he wants her on milk thistle in case the bruising was related to a liver issue.*

The bruising can happen easily if someone is incompetent in trying to draw the blood. On a tiel it is better to get it from a clipped toenail. It is safer than risking injury to an artery and possibly causing a blood clot to the heart or brain.

A better alternative and more effective to suspected liver issues would be lactulose. It can be given orally or in the water. Milk thistle extract can be mixed with the lactose.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> *he wants her on milk thistle in case the bruising was related to a liver issue.*
> 
> The bruising can happen easily if someone is incompetent in trying to draw the blood. On a tiel it is better to get it from a clipped toenail. It is safer than risking injury to an artery and possibly causing a blood clot to the heart or brain.
> 
> A better alternative and more effective to suspected liver issues would be lactulose. It can be given orally or in the water. Milk thistle extract can be mixed with the lactose.


Thank you for the advice, but I trust my vet completely. We discussed alternatives yesterday and he felt that we would not get an adequate amount of blood from a toenail over clip to do the full battery of tests. The bruising is unfortunate, but he is not incompetent. He has 40+ years of experience and is considered an expert in the field. His reasoning was that the bruising might indicate a liver problem, as might the weight loss that we are trying to treat to begin with. So better to give her the supplement for a week to be safe. Also, since we are giving her Baytril again, it will protect against potential toxicity.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

An experienced vet would not have bruised the bird. I have had several years of veterinary studes and the bruising is not an indication of liver disease. Lactulose *Is a better* course of treatment. Also an X-ray would show if the liver is enlarged or any abnormalities.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

What would you recommend for diagnosing the weight loss I have described?

ETA: as I understand it, bruising can occur with bad luck regardless of experience. Just as an experienced doctor can miss a vein and bruise a human. Again, I appreciate your advice, but I have to do what I think is best for my bird. If this bloodwork will tell us what is going on with her, it's worth the risk. Right now she's slowly wasting away.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

In regards to liver disease, weight loss occure when the disease is *very advanced*....and this can take up to a year. Prior to this there would be signs. Liver disease does not have to be fatal if caught early enough because the organ is regenerative if given the proper supportive tools.

Some info from past postings:
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Under normal circumstances a bird mfg. and synthesizes vitamin C in the body. When it is sick the body’s ability to do this is hindered, thus supplementing is needed. This is especially so when you have suspected hepatic (liver) problems or damage. Vitamin C is a great supplement when sick and to aid the body when there are liver problems. A liver is regenerative, but it needs to be given the *tools* to help heal itself.

Some of the tools are: Vitamin C (while sick), lactulose, natural exposure to sunlight or full spectrum lighting close to the caging, and a changing of caging, such as a flight cage that encourages more movement and exercise, or some flight time daily. 

When there are liver problems the function of the liver is hindered. This also can effect vitamin A which is formed in the liver from beta carotene, thus supplementing of beta-carotene is needed. An increase of the water soluble nutrients to the body. Brewers Yeast is an excellent source for these.

Milk thistle can be given for liver problems. Dandelion can also be given to detoxify and act as a stimulant to the liver. 1 drop of each (in extract form) to each 1/2 ounce of lactulose (some info below) can be mixed up and the bird given a drop 2 times a day. These 2 herbal extracts can also be added to the drinking water at a ratio of 1 drop to 3 ounces of water, and changed 2 times a day.

I've found that everything has a cause and effect to other body functions in our feathered friends. To help them many times we have to get to the root of the problem. Such as why your bird does have liver problem. Also how does this effect the other organs, and go from there. Many times giving the body the needed supplements and nutritional support (tools) can do more healing than any medication.

*Lactulose* (Cephulac)

Lactulose acts as an osmosis retardant to the absorption of potential toxins from the GI tract. Used as a treatment with liver disease to decrease the load of metabolites that must be processed through the liver. What this does is reduce toxic potential of the blood ammonia due to liver dysfunction. 

It also acts as an appetite stimulant. 

It acidifies the intestinal contents.

It is also be effective in establishing a gastrointestinal environment that favors the growth of intestinal flora. This eliminates the need for lactobacillus supplementing. Lactulose can be used daily for weeks. If diarrhea is noted reduce the dosage.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thank you. I have only had this bird for two months and prior to this she was not well cared for at all. She is also inbred, and these are the reasons my vet wants to investigate her organ function. However, she has no clinical signs of liver failure specifically, so I'm reluctant to put her on the full regimen until we get lab work done. Right now we really just need her to stop losing weight, but it's difficult to choose a course of treatment because she isn't showing clinical signs of ANYTHING other than the gradual weight loss.


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