# Too much protein?



## hjmledman (May 12, 2015)

Our bird LOVES scrambled eggs..she could seriously eat them every day. Is this a food I should limit? She lost some weight when we first got her, so I'm not worried about her gaining weight at the moment. Maybe when she gains all her weight back. But until then, is there anything wrong with a daily portion of eggs? She eats plenty of pellets each day, so this would just be extra.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

Egg everyday is bad and plus the pellets too much protein and too much protein can cause a lot of problems such as liver disease.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2015)

Eggs have a TREMENDOUS amount of cholesteral in them not to mention EXTREMELY acidic!! I would not feed my tiel ANY eggs, period and certainly not every day... that is CRAZY. It is not only unhealthy but absolutely unnecessary. There are TONS of other things you could be feeding your tiel instead. Your tiel does NOT need "extra" protein from any eggs or any disease causing animal products for that matter. I would stick to seeds, fruits and greens...oil free/sodium free popcorn cakes etc.(meat/dairy industry has done a fantastic job into brain washing people into being "protein obsessed").


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Egg is good to feed in moderation. More info on diet here: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27479


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## Vickitiel (Oct 10, 2012)

It's not "crazy" to feed your 'tiel scrambled eggs. It's a nutritious food to feed parents with chicks, but for a 'tiel with a normal protein requirement I would only feed it once in a while, as a treat.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Vickitiel said:


> It's not "crazy" to feed your 'tiel scrambled eggs. It's a nutritious food to feed parents with chicks, but for a 'tiel with a normal protein requirement I would only feed it once in a while, as a treat.


It can also be good to feed on a more regular basis during a molt, since the metabolic process of growing new feathers requires quite a bit of energy and protein!


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## Vickitiel (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks for the tip! My 'tiels are molting at the moment (we're in spring). I've been giving them Vetafarm egg and biscuit food to help with their molt, but they haven't taken to actual eggs.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2015)

Vickitiel said:


> It's not "crazy" to feed your 'tiel scrambled eggs. It's a nutritious food to feed parents with chicks, but for a 'tiel with a normal protein requirement I would only feed it once in a while, as a treat.


I would have to very strongly disagree. Tiels are NOT carnivores (they will eat occasional insects, but they are not meant to be consuming animal flesh loaded full of artery clogging cholesteral - harmful animal saturated fats and animal protein!!). I myself am very strict "whole foods plant based" vegan for my HEALTH. As many humans think cow milk (dairy) is "healthy".... dairy is full of PUS, harmful bacteria, extremely acidic, loaded full of cancer triggering CASEIN the list is endless. I will remove myself from this thread there is no point in debating further. It is downright irresponsible to feed a tiel chicken eggs let alone on daily basis! There is TONS of protein in bird feed, no need to feed them animal protein. Eggs are LOADED with very harmful (extremely high) levels of cholesteral, especially for such a tiny bird. There are far HEALTHIER ways to get nutrition and protein.... without the HARMFUL effects of eggs. Humans are the only species foolish enough to drink the infected fluids from another species. Watch "Cowspiracy" documentary and see what exactly it is you are supporting.


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## Vickitiel (Oct 10, 2012)

Obviously they are not carnivores, and I don't see how feeding egg would make them a carnivore anyway. They are omnivores in the wild, and eggs are not as evil as you are making them out to be. It's actually not uncommon for birds to eat eggs -- my dad works for Fish & Game NZ and he recently received a call from a woman who is having trouble with some pukeko (purple swamp hen) stealing and eating eggs from her chicken coop! 

I get that you are a strong-minded vegan and I respect the vegan way of life; I often have lunch at The Loving Hut in my city, which is a vegan restaurant, and the people there are lovely and always friendly, but forcing your opinion onto everyone else and making out that you are above anyone that consumes dairy/meat/eggs is downright rude and off-putting, and that is why some people struggle with taking vegans seriously because many of them can be harsh, negative and judgmental, and that is not the way to go about spreading your message.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

As stated every day is not a good idea, but occasionally as a treat won't be harmful. Tiels have actually been known to eat their own eggs, so there is that as well. Moderation and variety is always key to a healthy diet.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2015)

Vickitiel said:


> Obviously they are not carnivores, and I don't see how feeding egg would make them a carnivore anyway. They are omnivores in the wild, and eggs are not as evil as you are making them out to be. It's actually not uncommon for birds to eat eggs -- my dad works for Fish & Game NZ and he recently received a call from a woman who is having trouble with some pukeko (purple swamp hen) stealing and eating eggs from her chicken coop!
> 
> I get that you are a strong-minded vegan and I respect the vegan way of life; I often have lunch at The Loving Hut in my city, which is a vegan restaurant, and the people there are lovely and always friendly, but forcing your opinion onto everyone else and making out that you are above anyone that consumes dairy/meat/eggs is downright rude and off-putting, and that is why some people struggle with taking vegans seriously because many of them can be harsh, negative and judgmental, and that is not the way to go about spreading your message.



I am speechless. Cockatiels are most certainly NOT omnivores. They are classic herbivores... and again, just because certain bird ate eggs does NOT mean it is HEALTHY. Many dogs eat their own vomit and/or feces, what is your point. Please re-read what I wrote in regards to what truly is contained in eggs. Then please research Dr. caldwell esselstyn, Dr colin campbell, Dr john mccoudgall, Dr dean ornish, Dr. joel fuhrman, Dr michael gregor etc... followed by reading "The China Study" and watching documentaries such as "Cowspiracy" , "Earthlings", "Forks over knives" and EDUCATE yourself on who and what is so heavily influencing the USDA dietary guidelines (spreading the ignorance) at the expense of human HEALTH, destroying the planet, slaughtering billions of animals etc and why eggs ARE indeed harmful and NOT a health food for birds, nor humans.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

Vickitiel said:


> It's not "crazy" to feed your 'tiel scrambled eggs. It's a nutritious food to feed parents with chicks, but for a 'tiel with a normal protein requirement I would only feed it once in a while, as a treat.


Scrambled egg is fried isnt it? I may be wrong lol I get mixed up with eggs sometimes lol.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Scrambled egg is fried isnt it? I may be wrong lol I get mixed up with eggs sometimes lol.


It's made in a frying pan, but I've also made scrambled eggs in a microwave. It's not fried in the sense that mozzarella sticks are fried.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

Juliet said:


> I would have to very strongly disagree. Tiels are NOT carnivores (they will eat occasional insects, but they are not meant to be consuming animal flesh loaded full of artery clogging cholesteral - harmful animal saturated fats and animal protein!!). I myself am very strict "whole foods plant based" vegan for my HEALTH. As many humans think cow milk (dairy) is "healthy".... dairy is full of PUS, harmful bacteria, extremely acidic, loaded full of cancer triggering CASEIN the list is endless. I will remove myself from this thread there is no point in debating further. It is downright irresponsible to feed a tiel chicken eggs let alone on daily basis! There is TONS of protein in bird feed, no need to feed them animal protein. Eggs are LOADED with very harmful (extremely high) levels of cholesteral, especially for such a tiny bird. There are far HEALTHIER ways to get nutrition and protein.... without the HARMFUL effects of eggs. Humans are the only species foolish enough to drink the infected fluids from another species. Watch "Cowspiracy" documentary and see what exactly it is you are supporting.


True people also think milk gives you calcium it really dosent.People believe a lot of things that arent true.Like you dont know what Mcdonalds meat really is and its certainly not real meat I eat it myself but I would rather eat real food.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

roxy culver said:


> It's made in a frying pan, but I've also made scrambled eggs in a microwave. It's not fried in the sense that mozzarella sticks are fried.


Ive always known to only feed boiled egg and I dont always feed egg havent fed egg to my birds in a while now they have natural sources of calcium available to them all the time.Birds cant have anything fried its bad for them.


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## Vickitiel (Oct 10, 2012)

Juliet said:


> I am speechless. Cockatiels are most certainly NOT omnivores. They are classic herbivores... and again, just because certain bird ate eggs does NOT mean it is HEALTHY. Many dogs eat their own vomit and/or feces, what is your point. Please re-read what I wrote in regards to what truly is contained in eggs. Then please research Dr. caldwell esselstyn, Dr colin campbell, Dr john mccoudgall, Dr dean ornish, Dr. joel fuhrman, Dr michael gregor etc... followed by reading "The China Study" and watching documentaries such as "Cowspiracy" , "Earthlings", "Forks over knives" and EDUCATE yourself on who and what is so heavily influencing the USDA dietary guidelines (spreading the ignorance) at the expense of human HEALTH, destroying the planet, slaughtering billions of animals etc and why eggs ARE indeed harmful and NOT a health food for birds, nor humans.


By omnivore I meant that cockatiels are known to eat insects in the wild. To me that is classed as an omnivore.

I'm not an idiot, I've done my research, I've been a vegetarian for a few years and was into veganism for some of that time. Now I eat small amounts of free range meat and eggs and drink organic soy and almond milk. If you didn't speak to others as if they are stupid then perhaps you would get better feedback. Also, there are multiple sides to every story, and not everything you read and hear is the truth. Just some food for thought. I've learned to respect everyone's opinions and life choices, and it's made me a much happier person. Not that this has any relevance to cockatiels at all now...


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

Yes exactly not everything you hear or read is true same way most of you think it is lol.You cant say that to other people when you all do it yourself.


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## hjmledman (May 12, 2015)

Wow! What an adventurous list of responses! Thank you ALL for your input. The range of responses helps me feel pretty confident that it's not a good idea. She eats pellets just fine and her diet isn't lacking. I wasn't trying to give her more protein, just trying to not overload her with too much inadvertently. Which it sounds like a daily snack would be doing--and then some! (I forgot about the cholesterol part)

And yes, scrambled eggs are fried in butter or oil, and since we avoid nonstick pans for her sake, we really do have to use something to keep the eggs from sticking (Which was another concern of mine). So thanks everyone for the great advice! I'm glad I asked! You guys are awesome!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

> I would have to very strongly disagree. Tiels are NOT carnivores (they will eat occasional insects, but they are not meant to be consuming animal flesh loaded full of artery clogging cholesteral - harmful animal saturated fats and animal protein!!). I myself am very strict "whole foods plant based" vegan for my HEALTH. As many humans think cow milk (dairy) is "healthy".... dairy is full of PUS, harmful bacteria, extremely acidic, loaded full of cancer triggering CASEIN the list is endless. I will remove myself from this thread there is no point in debating further. It is downright irresponsible to feed a tiel chicken eggs let alone on daily basis! There is TONS of protein in bird feed, no need to feed them animal protein. Eggs are LOADED with very harmful (extremely high) levels of cholesteral, especially for such a tiny bird. There are far HEALTHIER ways to get nutrition and protein.... without the HARMFUL effects of eggs. Humans are the only species foolish enough to drink the infected fluids from another species. Watch "Cowspiracy" documentary and see what exactly it is you are supporting.


I'm not interested in a debate either, but there are a lot of studies that contradict this and support both eggs and dairy as part of a healthy human diet as well. Your choices are your choices, and I won't argue that, but representing the consumption or feeding of eggs as "irresponsible" is really both inaccurate and unecessarily judgmental.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

P.S. I'm an actual scientist in the (human) health field, so I'm pretty sure I am educated in this area.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

Ok so birds shouldnt be giving scrambled egg its fried and especially if its in oil.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Ok so birds shouldnt be giving scrambled egg its fried and especially if its in oil


Never heard that before. I've given my birds all kinds of eggs. Their favorite was my egg sandwich, but I think that was the mayo and they never got much of that. Eggs are just something to give every once in a while, not all the time, unless breeding.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

If/when you give your bird scrambled egg, preparing in oil is the preferred method because a) it has no dairy and b) it contains healthy fats. Let's not fall into the "all fats are bad" trap. Birds need some healthy fats in their diets just like we do. All things in moderation.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

roxy culver said:


> Never heard that before. I've given my birds all kinds of eggs. Their favorite was my egg sandwich, but I think that was the mayo and they never got much of that. Eggs are just something to give every once in a while, not all the time, unless breeding.


Birds cant eat fried food its bad for them.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

enigma731 said:


> If/when you give your bird scrambled egg, preparing in oil is the preferred method because a) it has no dairy and b) it contains healthy fats. Let's not fall into the "all fats are bad" trap. Birds need some healthy fats in their diets just like we do. All things in moderation.


Its that its being fried thats bad.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Brandon2k14 said:


> Its that its being fried thats bad.


There are two ingredients in eggs that are scrambled with oil in a frying pan: eggs and oil. Which of those is the problem?

I think you're getting confused between foods which are battered and deep fried as opposed to those that are simply prepared in a frying pan with a small amount of oil. You'd never want to give your birds something deep fried, but pan-fried foods are just fine. In fact, some vets recommend giving birds oil supplements to help with beak and feather health.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

enigma731 said:


> There are two ingredients in eggs that are scrambled with oil in a frying pan: eggs and oil. Which of those is the problem?
> 
> I think you're getting confused between foods which are battered and deep fried as opposed to those that are simply prepared in a frying pan with a small amount of oil. You'd never want to give your birds something deep fried, but pan-fried foods are just fine. In fact, some vets recommend giving birds oil supplements to help with beak and feather health.


The egg they cant have fried foods.Fried food is toxic to African greys all I know about the tiels is that its bad for them but I havent seen anywhere that saids its toxic.I once made mine scrambled egg and my mam told me not to give it to them that they cant eat fried egg.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

So...being heated in a pan somehow transforms the egg into a different substance that's toxic? Also, you have no source for this info besides what your mother told you, but it's absolutely definitely true?

If we're going with personal experience as proof, my 22 year old who has gotten scrambled eggs all his life says it's perfectly fine.

If you want more than personal experience, here are a bunch of sources that say scrambled eggs are good/fine (even some specifically about African greys).


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This is quite a coincidence, since just last night I wrote and posted an article on feeding animal protein to pet birds, with no idea at all that this thread even existed. http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/info/nutrition-misc-animal.html

BTW humans evolved as omnivores, and it's thought that the meat in our diet is what enabled the development of our large brains. It's not really natural for us to eat a vegetarian diet because that isn't what we're physically adapted to. Cockatiels are classified as granivores (seed eaters) because that's what their natural diet predominantly consists of, but it doesn't mean that this is the only thing they eat. 

enigma731 I'm going to check out your links and see what they say. If they provide me with fresh information I'll incorporate it into my article.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

enigma731 said:


> So...being heated in a pan somehow transforms the egg into a different substance that's toxic? Also, you have no source for this info besides what your mother told you, but it's absolutely definitely true?
> 
> If we're going with personal experience as proof, my 22 year old who has gotten scrambled eggs all his life says it's perfectly fine.
> 
> If you want more than personal experience, here are a bunch of sources that say scrambled eggs are good/fine (even some specifically about African greys).


About the African greys I read it off a website foods toxic to african greys.Boiled egg is different than scrambled.You can feed your bird scrambled egg if you want but I wont and theres no point in debating over this and then starting arguments it is what your best at.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> enigma731 I'm going to check out your links and see what they say. If they provide me with fresh information I'll incorporate it into my article.


They're definitely not as scientific as you or I would typically like, because in this instance I was aiming for lay literature rather than peer-reviewed articles.  But I'm excited to check out a new article from you, I always learn things from them.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There's no nutritional difference between boiled and scrambled eggs if you do the scrambling without using oil. If you use oil during the cooking process there will be some additional fat calories.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> There's no nutritional difference between boiled and scrambled eggs if you do the scrambling without using oil. If you use oil during the cooking process there will be some additional fat calories.


Right, and depending on the type of oil, it may contain some added Omega-3's, which may be beneficial when a bird is under added metabolic strain. For example, my vet recommended doing this as a weekly supplement for my chronic plucker.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

In a nutshell here's a summary of my article. Currently the prevailing veterinary advice is not to feed animal protein to birds because of a couple of small studies showing that insanely massive amounts of cholesterol (equivalent to a human eating the cholesterol from 650 or more eggs every day for several months) can cause atherosclerosis in birds. This is the principle that if an excessive amount is bad then you shouldn't feed any at all, just like the way that some people say you should never feed seeds to a bird because an all-seed diet is unhealthy. But everything is bad in excess, so the natural extension of this principle is that we shouldn't feed our birds anything. 

People do tend to overfeed animal products to birds, which is probably more of a problem from the fat perspective than because of the cholesterol. So if you offer animal products, use good sense and keep the amount small. If the average human weighs 150 pounds, then giving a whole egg or a whole chicken leg to a one-pound parrot is like giving 150 of them to a human. It's like giving 800 of them to a 3-ounce cockatiel! We don't know what the safe limits are for feeding animal foods so you need to scale down the serving size to something that looks reasonably appropriate.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

BTW a study found that cockatiels can live on a diet of 70% protein for 11 months with no problem whatsoever. I suspect that the study was aimed at finding the point at which protein consumption was excessive, and the 70% amount was expected to be the absolutely bad example that lower consumption levels could be compared to. But the tiels fooled them by having a "too much protein" limit that's higher than 70%. They're basically nomadic desert birds who have to be able to survive on whatever happens to be available, so they might be better adapted to live on a crazy diet like this than birds that come from a more lush environment. http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/7/2014.short


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

As usual, I wish there were more studies with actual real-world validity as opposed to simply looking at one extreme or the other. In human studies, it's been pretty well demonstrated that removing _all_ cholesterol from a diet is just about as harmful as having too much cholesterol. The best thing to do is to achieve a good balance of nutrients, of course, which includes healthy fats and some cholesterol. Of course, I have no scientific proof of this in birds, but I would bet it applies to them as well.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Briefly touching on oils and fat (since it's pretty much off topic for this thread):

There are four basic categories of fat: Omega 3,6 and 9 and saturated. Omega 3 and 6 are essential nutrients - the body requires them but can't make them, so they have to be obtained through the diet. Omega 9 and saturated fat are not required in the diet because the body can make what it needs.

The modern diet skews heavily toward Omega 6 fats, which are plentiful in seeds, grains, nuts and vegetable oil. Omega 3 is a lot harder to get from food sources. Omega 3 and Omega 6 compete for transport in the body so conventional wisdom says they should be consumed in a specific ratio to make sure that enough Omega 3 is absorbed: 3 units of Omega 6 to 1 unit of Omega 3. Therefore, when supplementing Omega 3 fats it's desirable to use a seed or oil that naturally contains a very high proportion of Omega 3. The seeds/oils that qualify are flax, perilla, chia and kiwi fruit seed, whose Omega 3 to 6 ratio is 3 or 4 to one in favor of the Omega 3. 

Hemp seed (and oil) have a "perfect" ratio of 3 parts Omega 6 to 1 part Omega 3, so it's great by itself. But it doesn't do anything to address the imbalance in the rest of the diet.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2015)

enigma731 said:


> As usual, I wish there were more studies with actual real-world validity as opposed to simply looking at one extreme or the other. In human studies, it's been pretty well demonstrated that removing _all_ cholesterol from a diet is just about as harmful as having too much cholesterol. The best thing to do is to achieve a good balance of nutrients, of course, which includes healthy fats and some cholesterol. Of course, I have no scientific proof of this in birds, but I would bet it applies to them as well.


I must say I am rather appalled with the levels of ignorance I am seeing in this thread. First of all, the human body makes all the cholesteral it needs. Only animals products contain cholesteral. Adding more cholesteral into your body by consuming animals products (which contains cholesteral) is NOT a necessity! Not only is it NOT a necessity, but by ADDING more cholesteral into your body is what causes serious health consequences... as the human body then must work hard to get rid of the excess cholesteral that was consumed. Your body makes all the cholesteral it NEEDS on its own.
Read the "China Study" (largest epidemiological conducted worldwide)... only sources heavily influenced by the meat/dairy industry are claiming that drinking the secretions from cows (dairy) is healthy! Cow fluids (dairy) contains PUS (cows are so over milked they have open wounds leeching PUS) please gather your research from CREDIBLE sources... bacteria, cancer triggering CASEIN, artery clogging animal saturated fats, causes you IGF-1 to increase, is extremely acidic and actaully causes bone weakness, not the other way around. The list is endless. There is also no such thing as a "calcium deficient diet".
Watch "Forks Over Knives". People need to EDUCATE EDUCATE EDUCATE themselves. Watch "Cowspiracy" and WAKE UP to the catastrophic devastation the meat/dairy industry is doing to this planet (Get the FACTS: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/), what it's doing to human health and then watch "Earthlings" so you can see inside what slaughter houses are like (majority of americans are getting their disease causing animal products from factory farms) and see the HORROR you are supporting if consuming animal products. I must say, anyone who can still consume animal products after being educated and informed to realty of the massive pain and suffering these animals suffer their entire life before being needlessly slaughtered... is not what I would call a decent being nor health conscious. Animal products are the cause of so many modern man created diseases.
Consuming eggs chicken for tiels is not healthy. It does not take much added cholesteral in such a tiny bird to do serious harm. Tiels get all the protein they NEED from their regular feed!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Juliet said:


> Read the "China Study" (largest epidemiological conducted worldwide)... only sources heavily influenced by the meat/dairy industry are claiming that drinking the secretions from cows (dairy) is healthy! Cow fluids (dairy) contains PUS, basteria, cancer triggering CASEIN, aertery clogging animal saturated fats, cuases you IGF-1 to increase, is extremely acidic and actaully causes bone weakness, not the other way around. The list is endless. There is also no such thing as a "calcium deficient diet".
> Watch "Forks Over Knives". People need to EDUCATE EDUCATE EDUCATE themselves. Watch "Cowspiracy" and WAKE UP to the catastrophic devastation the meat/dairy industry is doing to this planet, human health and then watch "Earthlings" so you can see inside what slaughter houses are like (majority of americans are getting their disease causing animal products from factory farms) and what you are supporting if consuming animal products.


As a cardiac health researcher, I am quite familiar with the China study, thanks. Your interpretation of it is heavily biased. Also, gonna go out on a limb here and guess that my doctorate is better education than watching some documentaries, which are created with the intent of spreading a message. They are not objective scientific sources.  

Nobody is telling you to change your beliefs or habits, we're simply asking you to stop imposing them on all of us. I will choose what I believe is best for my birds, just as you will for yours. I'm not interested in turning this thread into a debate with you, so I'm going to stop replying now.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2015)

enigma731 said:


> As a cardiac health researcher, I am quite familiar with the China study, thanks. Your interpretation of it is heavily biased. Also, gonna go out on a limb here and guess that my doctorate is better education than watching some documentaries, which are created with the intent of spreading a message. They are not objective scientific sources.
> 
> Nobody is telling you to change your beliefs or habits, we're simply asking you to stop imposing them on all of us. I will choose what I believe is best for my birds, just as you will for yours. I'm not interested in turning this thread into a debate with you, so I'm going to stop replying now.


The China study was never debunked by credible sources.... and I would be ashamed trying to discredit Dr Colin T Campbell. I cannot even take your reply seriously. It is comical... and now I am removing myself from this thread as I'm no longer interested in immersing in nonsense.

PS: Since you are a cardiac "expert" I'm sure you are fully aware of Dr Caldwell Esselsteyn https://youtu.be/J6pLRdawBw0 form Cleveland Clinic Ohio who has been successfully reversing heart disease for the past 40+ decades on a "whole foods plant based" vegan diet without drugs. Laughable really your reply. Thank you  Are you going to also discredit him and his accomplishments. By the way he and Dr Colin Campbell and Dr John McDougall are all buddies... and all pioneers with VERY VALID research to back them and I greatly admire their perseverance.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You know, I never said that I am an expert or that a vegan diet _isn't_ a healthy one. Please stop putting words in my mouth. All I have been saying is that it is not the _only_ diet good for cardiac health, and your extremely judgmental replies make it really hard to have any kind of reasonable conversation with you. 

By the way, you really shouldn't assume that people are ignorant or uneducated just because they disagree with you. There's lots of debate and disagreement within the academic community. That's how science makes progress, in fact, but its success is built on mutual respect. That might be a good thing for you to consider.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's official now that cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern, due to the lack of evidence that dietary cholesterol has a significant bearing on the risk of heart disease. The old guidelines on limiting dietary cholesterol have been tossed out the window. http://time.com/3705734/cholesterol-dietary-guidelines/

P.S. Name-calling about ignorance will work better if you can at least spell "cholesterol" correctly.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> only sources heavily influenced by the meat/dairy industry are claiming that drinking the secretions from cows (dairy) is healthy!


My apologies to the OP since this is so far off-topic. But this gives me the opportunity to link to my favorite Ayurvedic website which promotes drinking cow urine as a cure for every ailment known to mankind: http://cowurine.com/

Ayurveda has believed for thousands of years that it's extremely healthy to consume anything that comes out of a living cow, including a couple of dairy products that are popular in India. It's due to the godlike nature of the cow you see. The "big five" cow-based health remedies are milk, urine, dung, ghee (clarified butter), and yogurt, and all are used extensively in Ayurvedic medicine, which is popular in India to this day. Whenever somebody starts talking about the ancient wisdom of Ayurveda I give them a link to this website. My favorite part of the picture on the website is the little pile of flaming cow dung on the ground below the cow. Fire and cows are both holy as long as you don't combine them and have a barbecue. Eating cows is bad.

Edit: on a more serious note, the World Health Organization supports the consumption of dairy products. http://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/disease-prevention/nutrition/a-healthy-lifestyle "7. Use milk and dairy products (kefir, sour milk, yoghurt and cheese) that are low in both fat and salt."

Here's an interesting archaeological piece on genetic adaptation to milk drinking in humans and the benefits it conferred: http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I did some brief research into the China Study and the opinion of experts is that it doesn't hold up. 

http://skepdic.com/chinastudy.html

http://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/385/

http://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study/

There's lots more but that's enough to get the general idea across. BTW there's also a critique by the Weston A. Price Foundation, but I didn't look at it because those people are a bunch of crackpots. They're the ones behind the anti-soy propaganda campaign. I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but in this case there really is a smoking gun with the dairy industry's fingerprints on it. Soy happens to be the biggest competitor for milk products, and it's an important ingredient in most bird pellets so its safety is relevant to bird owners. WAPF promotes meat consumption too so they're anti-vegetarian for obvious reasons. I have an article about the evidence for soy safety here: http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/info/nutrition-misc-soy.html

Getting back on the subtopic of the China Study, I also came across this piece by T.Colin Campbell himself, in which he fails to answer the question that was asked of him, and instead focuses on disparaging society's "reverence for protein" and saying that casein (a protein in milk) is like, the worst carcinogen ever, dude (a claim that other researchers have been unable to confirm, casting serious doubt on its validity). He sounds like he has an axe to grind, which is the antithesis of science. If somebody can provide convincing evidence for why he's right and everybody else is wrong I'll have to believe it. But until then I'm not going to bite. http://nutritionstudies.org/animal-vs-plant-protein/


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Juliet said:


> causes you IGF-1 to increase


Since we're now on the topic of fact-checking and education, I thought I'd point out that IGF (insulin-like growth factor) is a neuroprotective agent which promotes cell growth and healing throughout the body. It's even given as a therapeutic agent in some conditions which cause nerve damage or degeneration. So I'm confused as to why you think a nutrient increasing IGF production would be a bad thing. 

P.S. I'm curious about your definition of "credible" sources. Maybe you could explain?


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

tielfan said:


> It's official now that cholesterol is not a nutrient of concern, due to the lack of evidence that dietary cholesterol has a significant bearing on the risk of heart disease. The old guidelines on limiting dietary cholesterol have been tossed out the window. http://time.com/3705734/cholesterol-dietary-guidelines/
> 
> P.S. Name-calling about ignorance will work better if you can at least spell "cholesterol" correctly.


ever heard of a typos? I constantly mispell words espciaiiall thatone when typing fast. Obviously I know how to spell that word LOL give me a break. DR Caldwell Esselstyn would have to dusagree with your little "findings". The reality is, if EVERYONE were a "whole foods plant" based vegan heart disease would NOT exist at all, period, nor would diabetes, nor would OBESITY, and cancer would be DRASTICALLY DECLINED as would auto immune diseases which by the way I have 2 auto immune diseases (Ms and hashimotos) from eating disease causing garbage for over 30 yrs causing me to develop leakygut (precursor to developing autoimmune disease - autoimmune disease cnanot exist without leakygut). I finally and put it into into full remisson on a "whole foods plant based" lifestyle. 

Animal products are the main cause of most modern man created diseases and again, I stand by what I said. Popel must EDUCATE themseves thorugh creidble NON-BIOSED SOURCES which not so heavily influenced by the meat/dairy/big pharma industry. Anyone who watches "Cowspiracy", "forks over knives", Earthlings", "Food Inc" and LEARNS and READS the STUDIES and familiarize themsekfves with dr colin ccampbell, dr cadlweel esselketyn, dr jon mcdougal... the list is goes on and on... yet still supports the meat/dairy industry when the meat/dairy industry is DESTROYING this planet like NOTHING else, causing massive destruction to human health and billions of innocent and rather intelligent animals are in unimaginable pain and suffering due to human GREED and IGNORANCE... SHAME on such individuals. EXCUSE the typos!

People freaked out about Cecil the lion yet turn a blind eye towards the millions of innocent animals being ABUSED and TORTURED so horribly it blows your mind... just to be able to eat their dead bodies. People stop when they see an injured dog on the side of the road... but could care less when a baby cow is ripped away from its mother and then kept in cages so tiny they can cannot even barely move. Chickens (which are BIRDS byt he way... or did not not cross your mind)... chiuckens are rather intelligent... and chickens legs are literally broken and torn off completely... the chickens are screaming in sever pain being trampbled on... and it's like this for months before it finally gets slaughtered. Watch "Food Inc" and EDUCATE!!!

People have empathy for one animal and then KILL and ABUSE the other animal. 
This behavior is DISGUSTING and it will stop one day... as the planet is already in emergency situation and the way the meat/dairy industry is DESTROYING this planet... cannot continue. It is that simple.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Wait so...people making documentaries to promote a message aren't biased? Okay then. I'm still curious as to what makes those particular studies more valid than all the other studies obtaining contradictory results. So far you haven't provided any evidence for that aside from "these people do work I agree with, therefore it's more valid than the work I disagree with." That's not how science works.

BTW, I spent about 30 seconds reviewing the literature on PubMed this morning, since you've so adamantly suggested that I should read some studies.

Here's one that reviews a plethora of clinical trials, demonstrating not only the safety of milk products, but also possible clinical applications in the prevention of metabolic disease and cancer.

Here's another one that finds similar roles for dairy products in health promotion and the prevention of many of the diseases you've mentioned in your posts.

Interestingly enough, those were obtained by searching the terms "casein" and "cancer." Turns out there's actually more evidence for milk proteins as cancer preventative agents than as carcinogens.

P.S. Just about anything becomes carcinogenic if it's given in large enough quantities. By that logic, we should just not eat anything ever. That approach would definitely prevent us from dying from cancer or heart disease!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Juliet said:


> The reality is, if EVERYONE were a "whole foods plant" based vegan heart disease would NOT exist at all, period, nor would diabetes, nor would OBESITY, and cancer would be DRASTICALLY DECLINED as would auto immune diseases which by the way I have 2 auto immune diseases (Ms and hashimotos) from eating disease causing garbage for over 30 yrs causing me to develop leakygut (precursor to developing autoimmune disease - autoimmune disease cnanot exist without leakygut).


Considering that we don't actually know what causes autoimmune diseases, I don't see how anyone could conclusively make this claim.

By the way, I'm glad your diet works for you. I personally have health conditions that would make a vegan diet very harmful to my health. Health decisions have to be made on the basis of a given individual's needs. I would never try to tell my patients that they all had to subscribe to a certain lifestyle, regardless of what worked for them. It would be awfully nice if you could quit trying to shame people who have different needs than you do.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

enigma731 said:


> Since we're now on the topic of fact-checking and education, I thought I'd point out that IGF (insulin-like growth factor) is a neuroprotective agent which promotes cell growth and healing throughout the body. It's even given as a therapeutic agent in some conditions which cause nerve damage or degeneration. So I'm confused as to why you think a nutrient increasing IGF production would be a bad thing.
> 
> P.S. I'm curious about your definition of "credible" sources. Maybe you could explain?


IGF-1 ...please read The China Study as it will explain to you why rasiing IGF-1 levels through the consumption of animals products is a VERY bad iudea... unless you like to promote cancers to form in your body. too many typos! I must get back to work no time anymroe in this thread.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

enigma731 said:


> Considering that we don't actually know what causes autoimmune diseases, I don't see how anyone could conclusively make this claim.
> 
> By the way, I'm glad your diet works for you. I personally have health conditions that would make a vegan diet very harmful to my health. Health decisions have to be made on the basis of a given individual's needs. I would never try to tell my patients that they all had to subscribe to a certain lifestyle, regardless of what worked for them. It would be awfully nice if you could quit trying to shame people who have different needs than you do.


Again, pleas read THE CHINA STUDY and it will be very clear. This post will be full of typos... justa forewarning... this post has many typos. I do not have patience anymore for this thread..genes account for leass than 5% determingin factor whetehr you are going to get a disease. It is ENVIRVONMENTAL TRIGGERS that turns certain genes expressions on or off...such as consuming DISEASE causing foods!! Please educate, read the stuides conducted in the CHINA Study... western worlds consuming the higghtes anount of animalroducts are ridden full of autimmunne disease whereas rual parts of Japan it doesn't even exist!!!

There is alos no such thing as having medical condition that would make not consuming meat,s dair and eggs "HARMFUL"!!! there is alos abolsutely NOTHING that your body cannot get from fruits, vegetable, grains, legumes that animal products would supply. ... other than B12... we wash the produce before we consume it... this washes off all the B12... which is why all vegans must take B12 supplement... meat eaters are just as prone to B12 deficinces as vegans. Unless you want to consume, dirt, soilt bugs and feces.... then B12 supplement must be taken. Cows, pigs and chiceksn get thier B12 from plants but they do not wash the plants before consuming it... therefore they get the B12 from plants.... which is now severely depleted due to horrific farming practices.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The problem with continuously only citing one piece of work is that it ignores about 99% of the actual science in a given field. Part of making informed scientific decisions means repeatedly questioning your own beliefs and examining all of the evidence, even if it suggests that you might be wrong. 

I think we've established that I've read the China study. I've also read lots of other studies in this field (seriously, I spend 80 hours a week studying this field...) that present other evidence. What I'm curious about is why you haven't read any of the links people have provided to you in this thread. Would you take them more seriously if others started typing in all caps and calling you names as you've done to us?

And, you know, if you're "tired" of this then you're welcome to stop personally attacking me at any time. Please note all I have done in this thread is asked you to consider some additional evidence and stop making value judgments about other people's lifestyle choices. You, meanwhile, have repeatedly called me names and made disparaging statements about my personal health, which you know nothing about and yet are completely sure you can judge.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

enigma731 said:


> You know, I never said that I am an expert or that a vegan diet _isn't_ a healthy one. Please stop putting words in my mouth. All I have been saying is that it is not the _only_ diet good for cardiac health, and your extremely judgmental replies make it really hard to have any kind of reasonable conversation with you.
> 
> By the way, you really shouldn't assume that people are ignorant or uneducated just because they disagree with you. There's lots of debate and disagreement within the academic community. That's how science makes progress, in fact, but its success is built on mutual respect. That might be a good thing for you to consider.


Im reading through this thread and I can see your overreacting a bit much as you always do and I didnt see anywhere that Juliet assumed anybody ignorant or uneducated and for as long as I've known you I think you are very ignorant and you always assume things.Juliet my advice to you is to just ignore anything she says that might make you snap because shes the one that will get away with it.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

enigma731 said:


> The problem with continuously only citing one piece of work is that it ignores about 99% of the actual science in a given field. Part of making informed scientific decisions means repeatedly questioning your own beliefs and examining all of the evidence, even if it suggests that you might be wrong.
> 
> I think we've established that I've read the China study. I've also read lots of other studies in this field (seriously, I spend 80 hours a week studying this field...) that present other evidence. What I'm curious about is why you haven't read any of the links people have provided to you in this thread. Would you take them more seriously if others started typing in all caps and calling you names as you've done to us?
> 
> And, you know, if you're "tired" of this then you're welcome to stop personally attacking me at any time. Please note all I have done in this thread is asked you to consider some additional evidence and stop making value judgments about other people's lifestyle choices. You, meanwhile, have repeatedly called me names and made disparaging statements about my personal health, which you know nothing about and yet are completely sure you can judge.



I am now officially removing myself from this thread. My final comment again is, there is NO such medical condition that exists which would make it "harmful" or a "bad idea" to NOT consume animal products. Nor have I even once attacked you personally.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

Brandon2k14 said:


> Im reading through this thread and I can see your overreacting a bit much as you always do and I didnt see anywhere that Juliet assumed anybody ignorant or uneducated and for as long as I've known you I think you are very ignorant and you always assume things.Juliet my advice to you is to just ignore anything she says that might make you snap because shes the one that will get away with it.


I've signed out of this thread


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Brandon, you must have missed this statement:


> I must say I am rather appalled with the levels of ignorance I am seeing in this thread.


enigma is far from ignorant, she has very serious medical training and is better qualified to speak on medical issues than anyone else in this group. I don't have any medical training but I'm the mother of a scientist and that apple didn't fall far from the tree. I'm perfectly capable of looking at the scientific literature to see how well-supported an idea seems to be. A lot of statements are being made in this thread about how bad animal protein is, but no evidence is being presented for it apart from urging people to read a single book that is criticized by knowledgeable people for its scientific failings. 

Name-calling and a general "ranting" tone are very unseemly, and they're usually the hallmark of someone who is more interested in defending their preconceived notions than in learning the truth. People who want to know the truth usually don't behave like this when they hear something that disagrees with their current understanding of the world. Instead they just look into the claim to see whether it looks more valid than their previous ideas. I looked into the China study long enough to see that a lot of well-informed people think it's unsound, but I invited believers to produce evidence for why the unbelievers were wrong. 

It's generally agreed that a lot of people overconsume animal products and this is unhealthy, and I have no argument with this. But on the surface at least it's irrational to think that the consumption of animal products is inherently unhealthy at any level. There are a lot of animal species that don't eat anything but animal products and they're doing fine. At the human level, we evolved as omnivores and the consumption of animal products is part of our genetic heritage and part of the reason for our success as a species. Vegetarians have to work and plan to obtain certain nutrients that non-vegetarians can obtain effortlessly, because animal foods are rich in some nutrients that are difficult or impossible to obtain from plants. Vegetarianism works when it's done right, but malnutrition is a serious risk if it's not done right. Because that isn't the way that nature programmed us to live.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

tielfan said:


> Brandon, you must have missed this statement:
> 
> 
> enigma is far from ignorant, she has very serious medical training and is better qualified to speak on medical issues than anyone else in this group. I don't have any medical training but I'm the mother of a scientist and that apple didn't fall far from the tree. I'm perfectly capable of looking at the scientific literature to see how well-supported an idea seems to be. A lot of statements are being made in this thread about how bad animal protein is, but no evidence is being presented for it apart from urging people to read a single book that is criticized by knowledgeable people for its scientific failings.
> ...


There are two meanings of ignorant it means either rude or lack of knowledge or uneducated and I see her as rude because she is.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

And juliet was right about this thread with the levels of ignorance.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Wow. I'm kind of appalled by all of this. I don't come to this site much anymore and this reminds me of why. People have differences of opinion and calling people rude, ignorant, etc. is really inexcusable.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The standard definition of ignorant is "lacking in knowledge". Rudeness is a separate issue. That's why it's possible to be ignorant and polite at the same time, or knowledgeable and rude at the same time.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2015)

Oh yes, the intelligence continues. We have "evolved" to consume meat which is why it has been PROVEN CAUSES heart disease, being the #1 killer in the US, not to mention destroying the entire planet like NOTHING else. Please rveiew something called STATISTICS, lokk at the health STATISTICS we are dealing with. Veges, fruits and grains do NOT clog your arteries, do not damage the endopihillian lining in your vessels, does not cause INFLAMMATION and cause diseases. Animal products DO!!!!!! I am now not only removing myself from this thread but from this forum. FYI: Dr Caldwell Esselstyn has far more impressive credentials and EDUCATION than that poster LOL... not to mention myself. I am done... because you cannot argue with ignorance.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Man, can I borrow your crystal ball, Juliet? I'd love to know how you're able to judge the value of people's knowledge and work without even knowing what it is.

In all seriousness, though, I really hate how this forum turns to defensiveness and sniping anytime someone suggests a different perspective or opinion. We have so much we can learn from each other, but that can't happen in a hostile environment.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I prefer conversations that are calm, rational and backed up with evidence. Maybe now we can proceed in that vein, if anybody has any additional information on the original subject of feeding animal protein to birds. 

Dairy is the most controversial form of animal protein to give birds because they're lactose-intolerant, and it's not something that I'd recommend myself. But still, I thought this Backyard Poultry article was intelligently written and had an interesting perspective: http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/are-chickens-lactose-intolerant/

Here's an interesting article saying that feeding chickens an all-vegetarian diet can result in a "henhouse bloodbath" as they peck at each other in search of nutrients: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...an-fed-never-mind-what-the-birds-want-to-eat/ It's not necessarily applicable to cockatiels since chickens are omnivores and tiels are granivores, but many common pet-parrot species are omnivores so it might apply to them.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Since we've deviated into discussing human health, there's a few comments I'd like to make about heart disease and statistics. First of all, while heart disease remains the leading cause of death in the United States, rates of cardiac mortality have decreased by about 40% over the past decade. That's a huge improvement and a big accomplishment for the health field!

Second, the American Heart Association recommends a diet that includes low fat dairy and meat. http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Getti...mendations_UCM_305855_Article.jsp#mainContent

Finally, the perspective of "plant protein good, animal protein bad" is grossly oversimplified. Not only is there little evidence that animal protein as part of an otherwise balanced diet producing inflammation or other negative health consequences, but it's absolutely possible for plant proteins to cause negative health outcomes. For example, gluten is a plant-based protein that's gotten a lot of press recently as far as producing systemic inflammation. Now, that body of work has its own issues, but I think it nonetheless provides a good example of why blanket statements don't work. 

There's no one ideal diet for all humans. You have to examine individual circumstances and needs. Marginally back on topic: the same thing is true of birds. Different circumstances will require different things in a diet.


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## Brandon2k14 (Nov 26, 2014)

enigma731 said:


> Man, can I borrow your crystal ball, Juliet? I'd love to know how you're able to judge the value of people's knowledge and work without even knowing what it is.
> 
> In all seriousness, though, I really hate how this forum turns to defensiveness and sniping anytime someone suggests a different perspective or opinion. We have so much we can learn from each other, but that can't happen in a hostile environment.


Wow your very cheeky you should be more like tielfan and not attacking juliet.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

One of the hot topics for human disease caused by general "inflammation" is the role of Omega 3 fats in preventing inflammation. It's applicable to birds too, there was a study showing that adding Omega 3 to the diet improved the blood chemistry of quaker parrots. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24293226

More applicable to this board, there was a small but interesting study on the effect of feeding flax oil versus fish oil to cockatiels: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22585819 These two sources contain different types of omega 3 fats (ALA in flax and EFA/DHA in fish oil). Fish oil is better for humans because we're lousy at converting ALA to the other forms, but ALA is usually recommended for birds, who are much better at making the conversion. But in this study the fish oil worked better for cockatiels.

I've actually been wanting to ask you an Omega 3 question for a couple of days now, but up until this moment I thought it was too far off topic for this thread. It's generally agreed that Omega 3 and Omega 6 fats compete for certain resources in the body. Omega 3 tends to be undersupplied in the diet while Omega 6 tends to be oversupplied, for both birds and humans. The standard recommendation is to maintain a ratio of at least 3:1 in the diet for these fats to make sure enough Omega 3 is absorbed. A lot of the "paleo diet" thinking (which is dubious) focuses on replacing Omega 6 with saturated fat to help improve this ratio. 

But during the last couple of days I've come across some references that say Omega 3 is transported preferentially over Omega 6 in the body, which changes things a lot. For example see http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/other-nutrients/essential-fatty-acids#essential-fatty-acid-deficiency 

If this is right, the real problem is a shortage of Omega 3 in the diet, not an imbalance in the ratio between 3 and 6. Do you have an insights about it?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> One of the hot topics for human disease caused by general "inflammation" is the role of Omega 3 fats in preventing inflammation. It's applicable to birds too, there was a study showing that adding Omega 3 to the diet improved the blood chemistry of quaker parrots. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24293226
> 
> More applicable to this board, there was a small but interesting study on the effect of feeding flax oil versus fish oil to cockatiels: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22585819 These two sources contain different types of omega 3 fats (ALA in flax and EFA/DHA in fish oil). Fish oil is better for humans because we're lousy at converting ALA to the other forms, but ALA is usually recommended for birds, who are much better at making the conversion. But in this study the fish oil worked better for cockatiels.
> 
> ...


I'm not up on the literature as far as preferential molecular transport mechanisms, but now I'm definitely curious about it and will do some looking when I'm home from work.  My guess would be this is one of the many areas of the health field where our understanding is beginning to change, but there isn't a solid consensus yet.

I do know that Omega 3 is considered crucially important as far as preventing and even treating inflammatory conditions, especially ones affecting the nervous system, and does tend to be deficient in our diets. Omega 3 is one of those rare substances where recommending supplements has a ton of benefits and very few, if any, downsides (although I'm sure if you took, say, an entire bottle of fish oil capsules, that would cause problems). Anecdotally, we recommend Omega 3 supplementation (fish oil specifically) to all of our stroke and head injury patients, and they often see more improvement in their symptoms from that than they do from prescription medications that address neuropathy/neuropathic inflammation. 

I've also had really good results with giving my birds Omega 3 supplementation during molts or recovery from illness. That's really interesting that fish oil worked well for cockatiels in that study. That might be something I'll consider for my chronic plucker.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Change my comment about "EFA" in fish oil to "EPA". Talking about Omega 3 fatty acids is like an alphabet-soup challenge for me. 

There's some talk about the evidence from studies at http://www.dhaomega3.org/Overview/M...ga-3-Fatty-Acids-and-the-Omega-6Omega-3-Ratio near the bottom in the paragraph that begins with "Some commentary on the so-called omega-6mega-3 ratio".

Edit: Ha ha! The programming on the board changed part of my ratio syntax into an emoticon! It's actually supposed to be a colon followed by a lower-case o. 

Some other links that mention the alleged preference:
http://tinyurl.com/k3gvbva
Page 16 of http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/thesisfile30339.pdf
http://web.stanford.edu/group/hopes/cgi-bin/hopes_test/omega-3-fatty-acids/

This one talks about the way Omegas 3 and 6 compete, in the paragraph right under Figure 2 (which is a green, yellow and purple bar chart): http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/Science-Omega3-Omega6.php If you click on "read more" right after this paragraph, there's a section near the end of the article about the ratio theory.

That's basically all I've got on the subject, and I don't know much about chemistry so I can't go much deeper than this. I'm sure that somebody who really understands the chemistry could do a lot more with it.

Edit again, since it's relevant to recent discussion in this thread: this study found that meat eaters had higher levels of EPA and DHA than vegetarians and vegans. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/2/327.short Higher EPA and DHA are desirable, so it looks like the meat eaters were better off than the others.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Im reading through this thread and I can see your overreacting a bit much as you always do and I didnt see anywhere that Juliet assumed anybody ignorant or uneducated and for as long as I've known you I think you are very ignorant and you always assume things.Juliet my advice to you is to just ignore anything she says that might make you snap because shes the one that will get away with it.


OK I'm stepping in. First off Brandon, enigma has been completely in her right to comment the way she has and has handled herself very well. That's how normal adults debate a subject they disagree on.

Second, Juliet, I understand the way you feel about your diet but citing only one study and mentioning it over and over again will not get your point across. Reading what other's have cited and then refuting them with studies of your own is the only way to conduct a healthy debate. 

I let the thread continue as long as I did in hopes that the tone would change and calm down but since it didn't now I'm going to put a stop to it. I think we answered the op's question very well and even more than was needed. The topic has now gone way off topic. I would just like to remind everyone that name calling and berating will get you infracted. This is the only verbal warning I'm going to give on the subject. Thanks!


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