# male or hen cockatiel - help needed!



## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

hello everyeone, i'm new on this forum (great forum btw) and i need some help sexing one of my cockatiel. So.. we bought the first tiel about 2 months ago, been told it's a hen, and after 3 weeks of having her we bought another tiel beleived to be a male. when we got the male home they both falled in love with eachother i think lol and they get on very well together. took them to the vet for a checkup and he told us that Sunny (the male) might be a female as well but he's not sure.. they are between 5-6 months old. the thing is that Sunny doesn't make any noises at all, he started to sing one evening about 2 weeks ago and done it for 2 minutes and that was it. Rosie on the other hand chirps every time she wants something. The strange thing is that if we take Sunny in another room in the morning or in the evening, Rosie starts to sing like a real male (she's hen 100%) and she stops when we get Sunny back to her. she never sings when they're together.. she used to sing before getting him as well..! i will try to upload some videos on youtube with her singing and put the links on here.

attached some pics of them, the Pearl one is Rosie (hen) and the Pied one is Sunny (beleived to be a male) and below are some pics with his tail and under the wings.. 

if out there's any guru who could help it would be much appreciated!

Ps: we love them both a lot, no matter what their sexes are!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Pieds are impossible to visually sex. You either have to rely on behavior or a DNA test. Pied messed with the normal tells and a male pied can maintain the tail barring for years and through multiple molts. I had a male pearl that didn't start to sing until he was 8 months old, before then we swore he was a girl.


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

roxy culver said:


> Pieds are impossible to visually sex. You either have to rely on behavior or a DNA test. Pied messed with the normal tells and a male pied can maintain the tail barring for years and through multiple molts. I had a male pearl that didn't start to sing until he was 8 months old, before then we swore he was a girl.


thanks for your reply roxy, didn't knew the pied cannot be visually sexed. all we can do then is to have patience as the DNA test is not an option we'll go for


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

I have a male who never sings.

I have a female who sings nonstop.

Singing isn't a reliable indicator of sex.

Can I ask why you are so strongly against DNA sexing? Knowing the gender of your birds is important for veterinary reasons.


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

SilverSage said:


> I have a male who never sings.
> 
> I have a female who sings nonstop.
> 
> ...


hi and thanks for replying. we just don't want to even think taking blood from poor babies, they are so sweet.. however as i said we love them whatever their sexes are.


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## rivx (Mar 3, 2017)

DNA tests don't require blood, if I'm not wrong. I believe they use a feather - its completely harmless, and painless.


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## Haimovfids (Sep 19, 2012)

There are two methods to DNA sex: Feather and blood.

It sounds worse than what it actually is. For the feathers, you pluck a few of the chest feathers. The other option is blood. It requires slightly clipping the nail more to hit the quick. The blood goes on the sample paper.

Personally, I prefer the blood method because it is quicker and less traumatizing in my opinion. I have used the blood method, and it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

You don't need to DNA sex them if you don't want to. Males are more common to whistle and do heart wings, and the females lay the eggs.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

The blood can be a single drop and they get over it in seconds. Much less pain than say, a dog getting a rabies vaccine 

Like I said, not all males sing (or do heart wings).

Also if your hen is laying eggs without a male and a nest box and you intending to breed, you need to take immediate action to prevent that.


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

they both do heart wings now and often but only the female sings, she even does the funny jumps sometimes. none of them laid eggs (yet) lol


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Well, it is possible, but I have literally never seen a female do heart wings. My guess off the bat is that you have two males.


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

SilverSage said:


> Well, it is possible, but I have literally never seen a female do heart wings. My guess off the bat is that you have two males.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


haven't got a pic with her doing it but here's a few clear pics of her, the vet also told us she's 100% a hen. i know it's rare for a female to sing however this morning she's done it in the front of theyr mirror for the first time and she seemed to enjoy it lol


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

It's really not rare for a hen to sing; did the vet say WHY he thinks the bird is female? Because unless he did a DNA test or she laid an egg it is NOT POSSIBLE to be sure in a pied bird unless a sex linked mutation like cinnamon is involved (Pearl doesn't work when Pied is involved, but that's likely what he was basing it on).


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

What color are her flight feathers? Are they all grey or are some yellow!


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

SilverSage said:


> What color are her flight feathers? Are they all grey or are some yellow!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


she was clipped when we bought her, some are yellow as you can see


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Ok yes I was just making sure I wasn't wrong about her pied markings. Sorry friend, but unless your vet did a DNA test, he had no business stating that the bird was "100%" certain to be a hen.


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## Haimovfids (Sep 19, 2012)

These are heart wings:










If your "female" is doing that, while singing and hopping with a mirror. It's a pretty high chance it's actually a boy. 

The other one still has a chance of being a girl.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There's no way to be 100% sure of gender without a DNA test, and even those are wrong occasionally. I've had a vet tell me he thought a bird was male based on the brightness of the cheek spot and the narrowness of the pelvis, but she is most definitely female and has proved it by laying eggs.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

A good avian vet is worth their weight in gold, but it's important to remember they are MEDICAL experts, not mutation or training experts.


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies guys, really appreciated!


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

Haimovfids said:


> These are heart wings:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


she actually does it only when her "partner" is doing it, and he's doing it without singing.. he just walks around on the top of his cage doing it lol


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> A good avian vet is worth their weight in gold, but it's important to remember they are MEDICAL experts, not mutation or training experts.


Or sexing experts. The rules are different with every species and sometimes different for the various mutations within a particular species. We can't reasonably expect a vet to know every detail for every species.


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## Fran.bath89 (Jun 12, 2016)

Sounds like two males to me and they have bonded which is why there is a lot of noise when you separate them. It really isn't that bad to do DNA sexing like the other explain it's a tiny drop of blood it's not like when they take blood from large animals and humans lol no huge vials and big needles. But keep a close eye on them while they mature and you will figure out what sex they are. Plus they are beautiful and you've taken great photos


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> (Pearl doesn't work when Pied is involved, but that's likely what he was basing it on).


Pearl still works like cinnamon even when pied is involved. A pearl hen can only get the gene from the father, a male pearl has to get it from both parents, whether the bird is also pied or not. Any chance you know what the parents were?


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Sorry by that I mean that Pearl doesn't work reliably for sexing when Pied is involved because it can cause males to keep their pearls while a non pied pearl male almost always loses his pearls.


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## sisu (Mar 25, 2017)

roxy culver said:


> Pearl still works like cinnamon even when pied is involved. A pearl hen can only get the gene from the father, a male pearl has to get it from both parents, whether the bird is also pied or not. Any chance you know what the parents were?


thanks for replying, no idea on the parents as the guy we got them from took them from someone else, didn't breed them himself.


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## ninfatiel (Jul 22, 2016)

http://www.justcockatiels.net/sexing-cockatiels.html This is a great article,it will give you a lot of knowledge if you read it till the end and watch all the pictures


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I haven't read the entire article, but glanced through it enough to know that you shouldn't take every word of it as gospel truth. The author is a good observer with strong opinions, but there are many knowledgeable breeders who have made different observations and don't agree with everything that's written in the article. That's why the article has a long paragraph bashing the people who don't agree with the author's conclusions. There's some good information in the article but take it with a grain of salt whenever you see statements about how wrong "they" are. Some of the things "they" are accused of saying are things that I've never actually heard anyone say. 

BTW "they" are serious show breeders. Not all of them are experts on the nitty gritty details, but there are some whose knowledge is impressive. I hang out on cockatiel society groups and have heard the other side of the story on some issues. I wouldn't say that any particular side is always right or always wrong about everything, but I have seen cases where the evidence favors "them". 

Wing spots, cheek spots, pelvis width, etc... they tend to be more accurate than flipping a coin but they're far from 100% accurate. I've heard it said that wing spot sexing is about 70% accurate. I don't know whether that's an accurate statistic or not, but I know from my own experience that wing spots often lie. I'd trust the 70% number more than a number that was close to 100%. Pendulum sexing is a fun thing to do at baby showers but don't put too much faith in it.


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## Janalee (Jul 25, 2012)

*male or hen*

Your birds are beautiful, whatever gender they are! I had Bennie sexed by DNA by plucking a few feathers. I was hesitant to use the blood method because I was afraid I'd clip the nail a little TOO short and he'd bleed too much. Also, I know how much it hurts when I cut one of my nails too short. Maybe the nail bed of birds is not as sensitive as ours.
PS: welcome to the forum! It's a great place to learn!


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## ninfatiel (Jul 22, 2016)

I've read that article couple of years ago,when there were no 

BTW "they" portion yet.. I guess the author had faced some problems and added that part, regardless,it helped me a lot-with wing spots and with pearls-tail observance. Magnet sexing doesn't sound right to me either but the spots do work..I kept some babies I have bred and sexed them according to article and the results were accurate. Apart from sexing ,there is a goldmine of useful info on that site.. Anyway even without DNA its usually possible to tell who is who by behavior, like Silver Sage said- females don't do heart wings,they don't play with mirrors either-and if they do whistle it is shorter,less complicated and less frequent sounds-compare with boys


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

A couple of years ago I had three chicks from two different sets of parents who were female beyond a shadow of a doubt based on sex-linked mutations, and all three had wing spots that said male. This happens frequently although I don't usually have that many at the same time. Both families produce "spot gene" babies and I don't know whether that messes up the usual markings at all, but it's definitely not a reliable method at my house. I also get a lot of babies in the intermediate zone, with too many spotted feathers for a boy and not enough for a girl. There are some that appear to have the right markings for their gender too of course, but not enough of them to make me think wing spot sexing is reliable. 

I've never seen anyone argue that there's no correlation at all between wing spots and gender, just that it's not a super reliable way to determine the sex. Most people don't have as much confidence in it as the author of that article.


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## EllenD (Oct 9, 2016)

I'm going to chime in here to the OP, I know you keep saying you don't care whether they are make or female, and that's good, but here's why you absolutely NEED TO KNOW FOR SURE. 

As a former breeder of cockatiels and budgies for 20 years, and a pet bird owner for 30+ and still going, knowing whether a bird is female or not is probably one of the most important things you can find out for your bird's health due to the possibility of egg-binding. A female bird can lay eggs very frequently on her own, without a male in the picture, obviously they will be infertile but they are just as dangerous to her health and to her life either way. And it only takes one time to kill your birds. So let's say you don't do DNA sexing on either of your birds (which is silly, I'm sorry but it costs only $25 a bird and you can order 2 test kits online, they send them to you, you pull a few feathers or clip a toenail and put a drop of blood on the card they send you for each, and get results in a week; blood is easier and doesn't hurt your birds one bit, I've done dozens and dozens, it could save your bird's lives so you need to think about that). 

So since there is no way at all for your avian vet to know the sex of either of your birds, especially the one he says is "100% female" for some reason I cannot begin to understand, because he can't tell you it's "1% female", lol, and the other myths about sexing like singing, making noise, heart wings, etc. mean absolutely nothing at all, you have absolutely no idea the sex of either of your birds until they either lay eggs or you actually see them mating and you get fertile eggs (yes, females will sometimes mate with females and males with males, I've seen it all, as has SilverSage). So let's say in a few months or whenever your birds get to be around a year or so old or older one of them starts acting funny. They are on the bottom of the cage or not eating or drinking, or even worse, they have no symptoms at all until suddenly you find your bird crying in pain one night. You think your bird is sick or that it hurt itself, so you prepare to take it to your avian vet first thing in the morning. The idea that your bird is egg-bound never crosses your mind, so you do none of the things that you need to do immediately to help her pass the egg. In a matter of an hour she's dead at the bottom of the cage because she prolapsed her uterus trying to push the egg out, or the egg broke inside of her causing internal bleeding. And you could have helped her, you could have saved her life, but you never even thought to check for an egg she might be carrying, therefore you didn't get her into a steam bath, into hot water, do massages, lubricate her vent with olive oil, or any of the other things you could have done to save her life. Then you start to immediately wonder about your other bird...

I'm not trying to be harsh but once you watch a bird suffering from being egg-bound you don't forget it. And cockatiels are unfortunately habitual egg layers, a lot of times double-clutching. Plus, part of knowing how to correctly control their hormones and keep them out of breeding mode is knowing what sex they both are. 

The point is that it is such a cheap, simple, non-invasive, painless, easy test for you to order online, do, and mail in, and since it can help you to properly raise and care for both your birds, and possibly save their lives, there is no excuse for you not to do it.

"Dance like nobody's watching..."


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Unfortunately there is no "I love this" button on this forum for me to heart Ellen's post, but I would.


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