# sensory or lack of trust



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

My bird can't stand to be pet... he loves to come out... he loves to jump from shoulder to shoulder but he can't stand to be pet and likes to ignore me when he is on my shoulder.... he will be grooming himself and I will have an itchy shoulder and when I go to scratch it he attacks my hand, he doesnt have as bg an issue with my head nuzzling him but he doesn't like hands.... when I take him out of the cage he skips my hand and goes straight for my shoulder... also I don't put my hand in the cage to take him out... he comes down and comes out of the cage on his own and jumps up to my shoulder....

Could this be that the breeder who raised him didn't handle him well as a baby??? I don't know the breeder because I got him from the pet store and they got him from some breeder who hand tames them....

So my question is, is this a lack of trust or he just doesn't like to be touched... When he is more tired/relaxed he doesn't mind so much. If Im doing something he doesn't like he just flies to someone else.... or on an out of reach spot...


----------



## Clawsworth (Nov 9, 2009)

My cockatiel does the same thing! She seems to have an issue with hands exactly like you're describing. Based on my own experience, I would say it's the personality of the bird and not a lack of trust. Nimbus trusts us completely but when she's on my shoulder and I go to scratch, she makes this weird noise with her crest back and beak open at my hand (she doesn't bite or anything) but I can tell she doesn't want my hand near her like that. It used to be the same with pets, but I kept at it and she now accepts head scratches and lets me pet her (only when I'm holding her near my chest). If someone else has an alternate explanation besides the bird's personal preference, I'd like to know as well.


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

ya except when I go near the feet or something... if he is in a good mood he makes a sound and opens his beak... if he is in a semi bad mood he lightly nips at my hand like a fake bite to try to warn me... that or he is a klutz and keeps missing... if he is really in a bad mood or focusing on something he bites me hard!


----------



## Mythara (Apr 9, 2009)

It's instinctual for them to distrust hands - lets face it, hands can easily look like claws, and 'tiels are a prey animal. Hand feeding, or even just being handled frequently while in the nest can help to counter this instict, but it doesn't work with all birds. Some people can never give theirs scritches with their hands, but can give them scritches with their nose. Have you tried stick training? That is, getting him to step up on to a perch instead of your hand? He may be more comfortable that way, and once he's used to it, you can start making the length of the stick shorter, so he has to step up closer and closer to your hand, then on to your hand. It's another of these things that takes time and patience - how much depends on your bird. Remember to praise him and reward him whenever he steps onto the stick.


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

he has no problem going TO my hand he uses it as a stepping stone... its when my hand goes to him! lol... he is looking at my funny now... crazy hacker

ps hacker is the bird and he was handfed as a baby... hence why the pet store charged 80 bucks more... well thats what they say anyways


----------



## Mythara (Apr 9, 2009)

If he was in a pet store, it could be that he wasn't handled for a while between being sold there or finishing weaning if they hand fed him, and when you bought him. Make sure you move slowly and he's seen your hand before you start moving it towards him. When you say he steps on to your hand, is it your hand or your finger? What I was saying mostly applies to fingers. Even birds with a true hate of fingers will often step on to a wrist or a fist.


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

he is on my hand right now stairing at the screen and he will go on my fingers if he has to... I've discovered he likes mini wheats


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

he gets along with everyone except for the 4 year old who he tries to bite.... I remember one time he really wanted to come out so I tryed to show her how to take him out but she got nervous and dropped the cage door on him... his reaction... he looked up and before he could do anything I opened in and he came out as he normally does... his cage has 3 doors 1 big one and 2 little ones it was a little one... the little doors arent even heavy enough to bruise him...


----------



## Mythara (Apr 9, 2009)

Right, so he doesn't really have a problem with hands then. Remember, we don't know you or him, so we can only go from what you tell us. In the first post you said:


gaurdianaq said:


> but he doesn't like hands


and now you're saying:


gaurdianaq said:


> he is on my hand right now stairing at the screen and he will go on my fingers if he has to


 A bird that really hated hands would never go on them, and would always either avoid or attack them.

He's getting upset when you reach up to your shoulder, to scratch it because he's preening, hasn't seen you move, and you've made him jump, so he tells you off. He doesn't want you to scratch his head - this could be a trust issue or lack of bonding between you or he night just be one of those birds who doesn't like scritches. When he comes out of the cage, does he just go up on to your shoulder and stay there until it's time for him to go back in most of the time? It could be that he associates coming off your shoulder with going back in the cage, and this is why he doesn't like it.

I would work on bonding with him better. Don't just have him on your shoulder all the time. Play with his toys with him, try clicker training with him to teach him tricks and make him more easy to handle - taking him out of the cage on your hand wil also help with this. It's important to be able to handle him easily and safely, so you if he needs to be held for a check up or because he's bleeding, he doesn't panic too much, or if there was an emergency, like a fire, you would be able to move him easily.

Does he ever preen your hair for you? This is a good sign of a bond. Our 'tiels will sit with us and preen themselves, then preen our hair, and then come and ask for scritches, it's a big bonding thing for us and our birds. Try getting a piece of millet and sit on the floor with him, then have him follow the millet over you - up your legs, back, shoulders, stomach, etc. Sit and talk to him and tell him about your day or what you're doing. And accept that somethings just aren't in his nature - for example, ours both love scritches and like to be with us. Kami prefers to sit on our knees, shoulder, the desk in front of us, or the backs of our chairs, so she can see us and be close to us. Lofty though has to be right next to us, on our shoulders, on the cushion next to my head, etc, she'll cuddle under my hand or headbutt my cheek to get attention and scritches, while Kami will wait till you're holding her to ask - we taught her to stands on your index finger and put her head under your thumb if she wants scritches. Lofty's personality is just more demanding and demonstrative than Kami who is more passive.


----------



## LT2009 (Oct 20, 2009)

Most likely it is previous bad experience. It was probably handled badly a few times and it still (subconsciously) remembers that experience.
There is most likely an instinctive reflex in tiels to handling (just like we instinctively blink when somethings suddenly approaches the eyes). Early on, in handfed tiels, this reaction is supressed. Even if it was handfed, but not handled for a few months, this reaction will return.
I have a tiel that I bought when it was 7 weeks old, and not hand fed. It jumps a little when I pick it up even when it wants to be on my shoulder (it only wants to leave my shoulder when it wants to eat. It even wants to sleep on my shoulder). Initially, it behaved like your tiel.
The other one that I bought 3-4 weeks ago (now about 4-5 months old) that was hand fed has no reaction to being picked up.
Probably you can make him learn to be used to it. ALWAYS pick him up and put him on your shoulder (it will learn that it had to tolerate to be picked up if it wants to be on your shoulder; they all want effection). Try picking him by different approaches (approach from belly side, approach from top, approach from side) and see which approach is less threatening to him. He will ultimately learn that picking by you never causes any harm. You can also trying giving him a treat each time you pick him up and he will associate picking up with a pleasant experience.


----------



## Mythara (Apr 9, 2009)

LT2009 said:


> Probably you can make him learn to be used to it. ALWAYS pick him up and put him on your shoulder (it will learn that it had to tolerate to be picked up if it wants to be on your shoulder; they all want effection). Try picking him by different approaches (approach from belly side, approach from top, approach from side) and see which approach is less threatening to him. He will ultimately learn that picking by you never causes any harm. You can also trying giving him a treat each time you pick him up and he will associate picking up with a pleasant experience.


Yep, we pick ours up a lot. They're fine with it now, although they wriggled a little to begin with. Mostly we pick them up and put them on our shoulders, or sometimes the top of our monitors, playgym, etc. Occasionally we put them in their cage or carrying box like that. Rarely we'll hold onto them and check their wings or clip nails. But because normally being picked up means something good, they never really struggle about being picked up. Ours will also step up to go all these places, the method we use really depends on what they're doing - for example, if they're trying to pull the keys off the laptop, we'll pick them up and move them somewhere else.


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

ok so I should pick him up sometimes? I thought that was flooding... also sorry about the misinformation... it might also help if I had a little bit more patience with him.... I have been kind of stressed recently and short tempered... now he is trying to type on the keyboard... ya ok thanks but one more question he has some kind of feathers that are kind of got sticky with something and I can't clean ti since he doesnt like getting his face touched I will see if I can add a pic

ok yes I added 3 pictures as attachments of hacker sorry if they are bad angles he wouldnt cooperate for the camera and it was a webcamera so holding steady was hard!

ps you're right he only bites me when he is preening like if I scratch my shoulder


----------



## Clawsworth (Nov 9, 2009)

Patience is essential. If you're stressed and short-tempered around him (especially when he's bonding to you), your relationship will suffer; he may mis-trust you or be apprehensive about you further down the road. 

Everyone is offering really good advice: pick him up often and have him associate your hands with treats and good things, and just give it time. Nimbus didn't used to like pets or head-scratches but I was patient with her and gave her treats and she asks for head scratches all the time now. I can't really see anything on his face but you could mist him lightly with warm water (that's good to do every day anyway). Keep at it - he's a beautiful bird!


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

thanks and I've been a lot calmer with him recently.... also recently he has been coming out and then 10 minutes later will fall asleep on my shoulder is this good or bad.... oh but usually this is later in the day he will come out and fall asleep like tonight it was 1 am and I just got back from youth he wants to come out he comes out and falls asleep... currently it is 2: 30 am and he is asleep on my shoulder almost underneath my chin....

on a side note when it comes to training I need to pick up some millet... when you say picking up is good... he hates this and bites me but he has done it less now....

also what is this forums opinion on chet womach? I know that they have apparently realized that their flooding techniques are bad and will remove them from further videos Im not sure if he will or not... the issue I have is that he say's he is there to help people with bird training... but then he says ya I'll help you after you dish out 100 bucks well apparently 50 right now but he says I will help after you dish out 50 bucks for video... now dish out 20 bucks for the organic food... now oh my 80% of toys on the market are poisnonous that will be another 50 bucks for organic all natural toys.... or I will send them free if you sign up for my 30 dollar a month program....

if he truly wanted to help bird owners he will put the info for free but instead he has turned it into a business... a DiY bird training business.... I sent an e-mail saying there food doesn't ship to canada and asking about the food Im giving I get an e-mail from some secretary saying they don't have a review on the current food he is eating... which is hagen premium cockatiel seed mix... Im going to try to get him on pellets... I bought pellets before and he wouldn't eat them and my mom said I should stick with seeds but after all the reading Im going to try to get him on pellets...


----------



## Mythara (Apr 9, 2009)

2.30 am is really too late to have him up. Parrots really need 10 - 12 hours of dark and quiet a night. I'm not surprised he's falling asleep all the time. Start giving him a proper routine with a bedtime and time to get up and you're pretty much guaranteed to see an improvement in his behaviour and happiness. Ours go to bed at 10.00 pm and get up at 8.00am. We don't use the room they're in during those times so they get plenty of sleep.


----------



## gaurdianaq (Nov 4, 2009)

so does that mean I shouldn't have him in my room because a lot of times I like to have late nights and that usually involves a light on... and he was squawking to come out...


----------



## Clawsworth (Nov 9, 2009)

We put our bird to bet a few hours before we go to bed (9pm or so), and putting a blanket over her cage makes it so she goes to sleep without chirping. Even if we talk or watch movies in the same room, she doesn't wake up and is able to get 11-12 hours of sleep a night. Try covering his cage so the light doesn't wake him up.


----------

