# The Enemy: A Serious Warning for Bird Owners



## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

Sorry for wall of text. I hope to get some advice. The main point of this post though is to Warn Bird Owners:
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COCKATIELS AND BUDGIES MAY PLAY NICE BUT PAY EXTRA CAREFUL ATTENTION IF YOU LET THEM PLAY TOGETHER. WHAT YOU MAY THINK IS HARMLESS TEASING CAN LEAD TO INJURY
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Hey guys some bad stuff went down today. Ok so I knew daisy was feisty and liked to pick on Larry thats why I had them apart almost always. Yoshi loves Larry and they get along great! This last weekend I did an experiment and put Larry in my room where the Budgies cage is. I let them both have there cages open so they could mingle. I checked in quite frequently every hour or less and shut the cages when I was gone from home(Thankfully). Everytime I peaked in they were having fun and I never heard any screams or fights. 

Well this morning I brought Larry cage in and was feeding them some millet. Finally taught Yoshi to step up on command today without holding millet(So Happy cause he's full flighted and can go where he wants at any point. Which made it much more challenging.) Larry knows step up almost since Ive had him but he wanted to play to. Well I was rewarding them and Daisy kept trying to steal treats but I wouldnt let her have much millet cause it was training time and she didn't earn it. She is very stubborn. Well she put up with this for about 10 minutes and then she flew on my hand and just hovered there when I tried to block her. I finally gave in and let her have some(Who says birds cant do puppy dog eyes) 

Well Larry and her were right across from each other eating the millet stick. Out of no where she grabbed one of Larrys Crest feather and pulled. Larry let out a Jurrassic Park type Scream and took off flying. I scolded Daisy sternly and didnt think much of it cause they will peck each other from time to time. 

Here's the thing later in the afternoon today I walked by there Jungle Gym and noticed one of Larrys half unfolded pin feathers on the bottom. I examined it and it had dried blood on the end and what looked like a piece of skin or maybe cere at the end. I was furious and in shock I cant believe Daisy would do something so mean!? Especially since Larry is having his first molt and growing new crest feathers. 

Im also mad cause she plucked what I believe to be his center Crest feather. I went over to Larry to comfort him and let him know she wont be a problem anymore. Can only hope he knows I know what she did. Poor guy must be very frightened. Then I noticed Daisy must have chewed on his front right Crest feather because it was a bit mangled and about 2 cm of the top was cut off and ended in a flat instead of the way they normally look. 

Up until then it was kind of cute cause such a small bird would stand up to Larry. Now I know its serious and I feel terrible cause in the end its my fault. Here's what I belive in the end though I know that if you put to female budgies in a cage with a male it usually results in the death of one of the females. This further leads me to believe that Larry is actually a female and Daisy is jealous maybe of me and Larry relationship or his and Yoshis.

Heres the thing though I cant just keep her locked up all the time and she has so many favorite places in living room. Shes also not tame like the other birds and wont step up, wont go in her cage when I tell her to and will go so far as turning into a stone when nudge her to try and get her to step up. As much as she loves flight. Im sick of it Im getting her wings clipped. Sorry if that offends some of you but its the only way I can think of to teach her how to behave.

Should I punish Daisy or is there a way to punish a bird to teach them it is wrong? Or is this the end of the budgie/tiel friendhip? I know Yoshi and him are so nice to each other and they wont like having to be separated. 

Having owned budgies for 5 or 6 months before my tiel I have noticed them have spat and peck at each other and squack which I thought was normal. I consider myself pretty well read and even a member of a few bird forums. I have 5 books on budgies and tiels and never has any of the books listed things like this. Whats your guys take on this and my plan for Daisy? Is it possible some birds are just mean? Shes a sweetie but this is over the line in my opinion.


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## Puppydog (Oct 13, 2011)

Animals are not malicious. You can't punish for something after the fact. She did what animals do. She didn't plan to pull his feather, she just did. She chewed it because it was fun to chew it. 

Take a breath, step back and realise that its just behaviour. 

Allowing them to eat a high value treat together is not a clever thing to do. Don't allow it again and don't leave them alone together.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Please try and keep the budgies away from the tiel. They can be aggressive and I have seen them kill larger birds. They can do it 2 ways: by biting the back of the head and puncturing the brain, or by biting the ankle and hitting a main artery so that the bird bleed to death.

Since the budgie is already taking feathers from the head I would not risk her being around your tiel.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

I agree please separate them... i went through it myself 
they acted all nice at first and then that totally changed so i had to separate them and take it in turns each to let them out


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Disciplining her after the fact wont help and as srtiels said, budgies and tiels are not a good mix. I have both in my house, but I would never leave them together at all. I don't trust the girl budgies at all. They're going to have to have separate out of cage time from now on. And to train Daisy, you'll need to do one on one. Trying to train all three at once isn't the way to go about it because they'll distract each other and be more interested in each other than in you and what you're trying to teach them. They're hyper active kids.


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## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

I fear for yoshis safety now about the foot. I have noticed the keets will bite each others feet when ones on top of the cage. I thought that was horseplay to. I really just wish I would have known the magnitude of it all. Like I said in the post Larry and Daisy wont even be allowed in same room anymore. I'm just sad that it has to be like this and I'm sad Larry suffered. He screamed at me this morning when taking a shoulder ride past my bedroom. Poor Guy


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Girls are more aggressive than boys and they are really mean lol
i found this out wit my tweety and she hated lucky


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## morla (Aug 15, 2011)

Why are buggies such bullies?


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## Puppydog (Oct 13, 2011)

Its just their temperament. They are not bullies, they are just more aggressive birds.


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## Evilstrawberry (Oct 4, 2011)

I am in the process of rehoming my budgies cause one of my teils was being very agressive and attacking them, so I know how you feel  don't blame your budgie though, it's just something they do especially when they are feeling hormonal or cage protective, not something done out of spite.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Like I said in the post Larry and Daisy wont even be allowed in same room anymore.


They can be in the same room, they just need to be kept far apart enough that Daisy can't attack Larry. It sounds like Larry is missing his budgie companions since he screamed when you walked past the room. They will have a flock bond with each other even if they don't especially like each other. 

I don't think this problem is an indicator that Larry is a female. Maybe it's because Larry has a crest and budgies don't, so Daisy's attention was drawn to it. Maybe she really is jealous of Larry's relationship with you and/or Yoshi, but this sort of thing doesn't have to be gender-related.

It's normal for birds to squabble and argue with each other, but when somebody gets hurt we have to take steps to protect the peaceful bird. Budgies tend to be more aggressive than cockatiels, and female budgies tend to be more aggressive than male budgies. It's just their nature and you can't teach them to be different. If Larry and Yoshi get along well it might be possible to keep them together and keep Daisy in a separate cage. It might be possible to have supervised out of cage time together if she behaves reasonably well most of the time, or they might need to have separate out of cage time. You're getting her wings clipped which might improve her attitude, and if she's still aggressive it will at least make it harder for her to fly over and attack someone.

Biting the feet is an aggressive move that cockatiels use sometimes too. It can result in broken toes if the biting bird is really serious about it. When a larger bird bites a smaller bird it can result in the toe being lost, although cockatiels and budgies probably aren't strong enough to do that much damage to each other.


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## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks for your post Tielfan. I'm gonna call my friend to see if he still has his cage. Yoshi and Daisy have lived together for about 9 months now so I couldnt split them up. I just watched a bunch of youtube videos of people with tiels and budgies getting along so maybe its just her personality. I'm still not sure if Im gonna have her wings clipped I know it would help me train her but I feel she will hate me for life if I did. I let them fly daily and there all out of their cages most of the time. So far Ive kept them confined to my room but it means I dont get to see them as much. On the other hand if keeping her grounded for 6 months does the trick then it may be worth it. I have seen her bite at Larrys Tail and chase him around and seen her start fights with Yoshi alot to. But she doesnt abuse Yoshi at least not that I can tell. What do you guys think? Did your bird get mad at you or hate you after you had there wings clipped?


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## Puppydog (Oct 13, 2011)

No. Animals are not malicious. She won't hate you for clipping her wings.


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## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Puppydog how did your bird act when she realized she cant fly anymore? Was she acting different? The other thing is if Yoshi can still fly and she cant I just cant help but think that would screw her up mentally. Did your bird sit in a corner the next day or what? Thats what i need some advice on how she will most likely react and I have seen birds hold grudges. They are smarter then we think. A month after having Larry he would run up his ladder and wait for me to open cage after coming home from work. Id open the cage and he was real excited to see me. Then I accidentally opened the cage when he had his toe in between the hinges and hurt him alot but nothing serious luckily. It took a month before he trusted me again with opening the cage.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Im gonna have her wings clipped I know it would help me train her but I feel she will hate me for life if I did.


She won't hate you for life, and if you get somebody else to do the job and leave the room while they do it, she won't even know that you had anything to do with it. 



> On the other hand if keeping her grounded for 6 months does the trick then it may be worth it


If grounded=clipped, don't expect any long term reduction in aggressive behavior from it. Female budgies tend to be naturally aggressive and this won't change her personality. However it will be an excellent opportunity for you to work with her and make her more tame so she has a better relationship with you. 

Based on things you said earlier I'm pretty sure you don't mean "locked in the cage for six months" when you say grounded. Because that would just make her depressed and/or crazy.


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## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

Oops no tielfan I meant grounded as in cant fly. Even if I did try that she knows how to open her cage anyway lol. I tried training her and yoshi to fly to me today and actually succeded. About 2 hours ago I did it again only this time with no millet. I was rewarding them with millet after they flew to me. I have done it before but never from across the room. Funny thing is when I stick my finger out she knows to fly but if I put my finger under her and try to get her to step up she always puts just one leg on my finger and holds the perch. Yoshi just hops up now. Im so proud to cause they do it even when they arent getting rewarded now. I will hold off on the wing clipping idea but its nice to know it wont do any emotional damage to her. I was so proud of them I made a foraging tube based off what I read last night. I cut holes in a paper towel roll cut holes and slits in it and layered crumpled toilet paper and millet bulbs in it. They love it and we are doing good. I think Larry actually prefers being away from them as his mood was much better today.


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## Puppydog (Oct 13, 2011)

Frikkie didn't do anything when I clipped his wings. I double clipped him but not too short so he can still fly, just not far. He doesn't care. 

The cage incident is just an example of aversion training. Ouch! Cage hurt me, don't go there again. It was not a grudge.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Funny thing is when I stick my finger out she knows to fly but if I put my finger under her and try to get her to step up she always puts just one leg on my finger and holds the perch.


She has adjusted to the finger in some situations but not all. You can encourage her to step up on the finger by holding millet spray in a position where she can't reach it unless she steps up. That should cure her hesitation!

Foraging toys and other destroyable items are a good idea. If she has interesting objects to shred, maybe she'll be less interested in shredding Larry's crest.


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## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

Well if I have millet they jump on my finger before I can even say step up matter of fact they will fly at me in circles and chase me around lol. I had them technically used to my hands in about a month. What Im talking about now is being able to get them to step up without treats which is so rewarding to me because that means they like me  Before it was kind of cool but now its like they trust me 100% and now that I have trained them to fly to me Im now working on standing in different spots and angles away from the cage I reward them when they fly to me and then I say Back and they fly back. I know this isnt the Budgie forums so I hope I don't get modded I'm just so thrilled and yes Ill be teaching Larry the same thing bought him clipped and hes on his first molt hopefully fully flighted soon. I have video if you guys want to see? Will have to edit it though cause I'm in my briefs lol. Maybe it can help you train your birds to?nHope it doesnt seem like im bragging to much its just everyone told me you cant train budgies when you buy a pair cause they dont care since they have each other. Even the lady at the pet store when I bought the clicker. I had actually given up after I got Larry but they are really suprising me with there intelligence not sure if its possible but I think all 3 birds are bonded to me now i feel like doctor doo little lol.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Just give them some more time and some more food bribery and you'll probably get the trust and affection that you want. It hasn't been very long since they learned to come to you for treats, and it will take some more time for them to think that being with you is rewarding even without the treats.


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## Kikode (Aug 17, 2011)

I wont be satisfied until all three ride my shoulders all day and when I say Cah Caw they Fly in Circles around me and then attack my target on command. Got a long way to go


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> when I say Cah Caw they Fly in Circles around me and then attack my target on command.


Good luck with that one! The shoulder-riding goal is attainable.


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