# Chirp before pip or vice versa?



## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

My eggs are due to hatch any time soon, today is actually the 18th day since the parents began incubating. I checked the eggs twice this morning and from what I could tell, I think one might have a pip mark already. Of course I'm not 100% sure as the male didn't let me take a good look, he's quite protective of the nest when his sitting on the eggs and gets very aggressive. 
I've been searching the forum for quite some time, have tried wording my search many ways, but have not been able to find what I'm looking for. I apologize if this has been asked before, will I see a pip before the baby chirps or the other way around? I'm starting to get nervous :wacko: I candled the eggs yesterday and I saw movement inside (YAY!), but I'm still a bit freaked out. 
Extra question, if I need to assist the chick in hatching, will the parents accept it afterward?


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I heard the eggs chirping hours before they actually hatched  I would let them be with the parents...I never assisted a hatching maybe others can help with that


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

When did you notice the first pip mark


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## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

This morning, it wasn't just one though, it had a few. I checked again about an hour ago, and from what I managed to see, there wasn't much change. The male makes it difficult for me, he either attacks me or goes after the poor female.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

It could take up to 2 days for them to hatch 48 hours


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

If I may say something...from now on I would not take the egg out to check, it can really stress out the parents


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## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

OK! Thank you! I'm as anxious and nervous as when I gave birth, LOL!


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I never gave birth but I was freaked out with the first tiel baby too I understand you completely


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## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

LOL! Good to know that freaking out is part of the job


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

As far as the chirping goes.. there is a membrane that separates the chick from the air sac. When the baby has broken through this sack, you should start to hear chirping as well. You will be able to hear this chirping even if dad is sitting on the eggs if you listen carefully. 

As far as reaching into the nest box.. it is a good thing to get the birds used to you messing around in there. Always talk as you approach, and tap lightly on the side of the box before you open it. This will let them know you are there. You can use a spatula to gently move mom and dad to the side so that you can inspect the eggs. Once they do hatch, you will still need to be looking in on them anyway, so having mom and dad used to you checking on them is a good thing.


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## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

LOL! I thought that if dad was sitting on the eggs I wouldn't able to hear anything, I was even putting my ear close to the box to try and hear something. Kids thought something was wrong with me :blink: Thanks for letting me know, I'll pay closet attention tomorrow. I checked the eggs a couple of hours ago, and there are more pips, my husband even saw them. I'm hoping that maybe tomorrow I can hear something, or have a baby already 

Thanks for the nest box tips, I'm going to be knocking from now on, maybe that will make things easier on me and the parents. I never thought of using a spatula, lately I've been using a thick envelope to push him out the box and to cover the entrance from the inside while I give the eggs a quick check. The spatula would be a bit easier because of the handle. Mom is not as aggressive anymore, she'll let me look inside the box while she's sitting and will not try to jump and bite anymore, especially like the dad does. I'm hoping he can reach that stage soon, the little guy bites hard LOL! My finger is still swollen on the parts he bit last night.

I have another question, sorry :blush: Do I need to actually hand feed to make the babies tame? I hand fed the female since she was two weeks old, and she's is so docile (unless I mess with her eggs LOL!). The male is also hand fed but not completely by me, when I got him he was almost fully weaned, and will let me hold him and likes to be with us, but not like the female. She lets me hug her, kiss her, scratch her head, but he will not. If the babies make it they will be going to some family members and they'd like tame birds like mine, especially like the female. I don't mind hand feeding, but I don't want to take them away from mom and dad if it's not necessary.

Thanks again for everyone's help!! You've been too kind with me


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

A chick will pip first. The reason why is because below the air cell is membrane covering the chick and egg contents. There is also a little fluid. If the chick vocalizes prior to piping into the air space it can drown.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Oooo this is an interesting question about hand feeding....I know most breeders suggest it and I get it why....feeding is a very intimate process and besides keeping the babies warm it is the most important thing in their lives for a while so if you do it, they will get used to human touch, voice and also they will depend on you.
I personally decided not to hand feed them. I know these birds are different from wild ones, but I prefer nature to do natural things  Besides I confess I am very clumsy and terrified to hand feed...I would do if the parents abandoned the babies of course. Hand feeding can be tricky, you have to pay a lot of attention to the temperature and consistency of the formula...too hot can cause crop burn, too cold can make the chick to get chilled etc. I am currently trying something i have read about. The University of California did a research on cockatiels, they hand fed 1 group and left another group with the parents but as soon as a baby reached the age of 12 days they took them out 4 times a week for 15 minutes sessions when they basically rubbed their backs, talked to them, kept them warm and they say these babies turned out to be as tame as the hand fed ones. Of course once they leave the nest you can even spend more time with them, offer them food out of your hand, play with them if they are big enough.
My oldest baby is 22 days old, my youngest is 15 days old, what I can see for now is they are comfortable with my voice and love when I cuddle them...they look at my face, push their head against my chin, almost fall asleep as I hum to them 
I have friends who raised cockatiels and parakeets without hand feeding them and they are really tame due to the time, training and love they got.

I do not say not to hand feed, not at all, do not misunderstand me, I am just trying something different 
If you do want to hand feed you can find excellent advice on this forum!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*The University of California did a research on cockatiels, *
-----------------------------------

You can post the link to the article? It would be interesting to read....thanks hon


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

It is not available online as far as I know, I have read it in the library  Lots of websites mention this research but I have not found the document itself online


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

This book has the whole research project
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book-Cockatiels-Diane-Grindol/dp/0876051786


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> If I may say something...from now on I would not take the egg out to check, it can really stress out the parents


I'm going to have to disagree on this...if I never took my eggs out to check them, I never would've done all the assist hatches I did and saved the babies I saved. In fact, I have one in the nest right now, she took two days to hatch, had chipped away as much as she could, but got herself stuck and couldn't get out. If my hubby and I didn't check on her, she would be dead right now from dehydration. So no, this is entirely not correct. You have to get your birds accustomed to you checking the box, tap on it to let them know you are there and then peak in. You start this as soon as they start nesting so as soon as eggs are ready to hatch they are used to you.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thanks Szafige....I recently order a bunch of tiel books from Amazon and I believe that was one of them. It sounds like it will be interesting reading. It's publishing date is from 1998. Many of the books I ordered were from the early 60's to a few years ago and it is interesting how info has changed and evolved over the years.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

roxy culver said:


> I'm going to have to disagree on this...if I never took my eggs out to check them, I never would've done all the assist hatches I did and saved the babies I saved. In fact, I have one in the nest right now, she took two days to hatch, had chipped away as much as she could, but got herself stuck and couldn't get out. If my hubby and I didn't check on her, she would be dead right now from dehydration. So no, this is entirely not correct. You have to get your birds accustomed to you checking the box, tap on it to let them know you are there and then peak in. You start this as soon as they start nesting so as soon as eggs are ready to hatch they are used to you.


I agree and i think I did not use the proper language (english is not my mother tongue but it is my problem hehe) all I meant is that checking the eggs all the time out of our own excitement (which I know very well) can stress out the parents...I did take your advice with the kitchen spatula from the beginning and no matter what they could not get used to it  I guess it depends on the personality of the cockatiel??? Now when all the eggs hatched they are fine with me as long as they not in the nest


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Szafije said:


> The University of California did a research on cockatiels, they hand fed 1 group and left another group with the parents but as soon as a baby reached the age of 12 days they took them out 4 times a week for 15 minutes sessions when they basically rubbed their backs, talked to them, kept them warm and they say these babies turned out to be as tame as the hand fed ones.


So what was their measure of "tameness?" I'm curious how you'd operationalize that concept.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Thanks Szafige....I recently order a bunch of tiel books from Amazon and I believe that was one of them. It sounds like it will be interesting reading. It's publishing date is from 1998. Many of the books I ordered were from the early 60's to a few years ago and it is interesting how info has changed and evolved over the years.


I personally found a book from the 60's on cockatiels which was awesome except their advice on egg binding...they handle it like a "no problem you can solve it at home" 
I hope you will find good stuff in the books you ordered


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Mine are not used to it perse they just tolerate us. Fuzzy we have to literally block any time we want to check because he is very aggressive. The hens are easier, they just don't want to move and as long as we present them with a fist and NOT our fingers they don't jump. But yes, a lot of the time it does depend on the bird.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*You have to get your birds accustomed to you checking the box, tap on it to let them know you are there and then peak in. You start this as soon as they start nesting so as soon as eggs are ready to hatch they are used to you.*
----------------------------------

I have to agree with Roxy on this. It is called 'conditioning the pair. Once the birds get used to the daily nestbox checks from the time they are setup, by the time the eggs hatch they are used to it.

Being able to look in the box and check eggs during development is very useful and alerts you to potential problems you may be unaware of. For instance, all eggs could be fertile and developing nicely, but somewhere during development they stopped developing and died. 

Why?....that is the breeders job to find out. The most common cause for this is the hen getting spooked and off the nest til daylight, in addition to finding what caused the birds to abandon the nest at night. Having a nighlight on at night helps. Problems like this have to be corrected prior to hatch because if a pair gets spooked from the nest when they are new hatchling and chilled too long, even with normal room temps, they die.

In not checking the box while they are incubating and when the babies are little you are also not aware that there is a problem, and after the fact wonder what went wrong. Many times needless deaths can be avoided by daily checking and observing the pair.

From late Fall to mid-spring is a universal problem of DIS (dead in shell) eggs. Why because during this time environmental humidity levels are lower. If you don't check your eggs starting a week prior to hatch you will not be aware of eggs slowly losing moisture, and as the chick turns and pips it gets adhered to the membrane, and either has to be assist hatched or it dies.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*.they handle it like a "no problem you can solve it at home" 
I hope you will find good stuff in the books you ordered *
----------------------------------------------

Yes it is interesting how things have evolved over the years. What was popular and commonplace even 10 years ago is out of date now.

I ordered over a dozen books because I am looking for specific things on mutations. I've been studying the photographs for any oddities to pop up to see how long ago they have been documented or missed entirely...like the spotted chest. It is also interesting to see how much mis-information there is in a few books. And this mis-information is parroted by others that have no prior experience to know if it is factual or not.


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

I agree really, I checked the eggs and the babies few times a day as well, all I said was you don't have to do that all the time because you are scared...lol maybe I just want to find excuses to my excitement...forgive me


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Was the study part of the UC Davis Psittacine Research Project? They do quite a lot of work with cockatiels. There's a list of publications at http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/research/parrot/researchpublications.html and a lot of it is related to nesting and breeding, but I haven't spotted the specific paper comparing handfeeding to handling. 

However this 1999 paper dealt with neonatal handling of orange-winged Amazons and isn't too far off the mark: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1(1999)18:3<177::AID-ZOO2>3.0.CO;2-D/abstract

And here's a paper on reproductive success of hand-reared versus parent-reared cockatiels: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4087451


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

srtiels said:


> *.they handle it like a "no problem you can solve it at home"
> I hope you will find good stuff in the books you ordered *
> ----------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


That is a huge task but awesome, good luck with it and please share your opinion with the forum :thumbu: I have not much idea about mutations at all but i am very interested


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I've been looking for the study, and I think it might be the Amazon paper. Here's the abstract: http://www.mendeley.com/research/taming-parentreared-orangewinged-amazon-parrots-neonatal-handling/

However they didn't compare handling with hand-feeding in the study. "Handled" and "handfed" look very similar on the screen so maybe that caused some confusion. But they do mention handfeeding in the link below so presumably they have an idea of what handfed birds are like. I found a couple of unofficial sources (including Cockatiel Cottage, and we know how accurate they are sometimes :blink: ) saying that UC Davis found that handled babies were just as sweet as handfed babies. 

Here's a more readable version: http://www.silvio-co.com/cps/articles/1995/1995brice-millam1.htm



> Taming parent-reared chicks
> 
> After watching aviculturists work around the clock to hand-feed chicks so that they could be sold as tame fledglings, we decided to investigate the possibility of taming the chicks while letting the parents raise them. Half the chicks during one breeding trial were handling for 15-30 minutes a day beginning around day 12. This continued daily until fledging and biweekly thereafter.
> 
> ...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The one thing I have learned over the years is that disposition is an inherited trait. I found that if the parent birds were not have a good dispossession that many times their offspring even though hand-fed can revert to almost wild acting after weaning.

One summer I colony bred a bunch of birds that I held back because they had specific parent traits I had worked into their family lines in addition to good dispositions. They were in a 3'x9'x6' flight with nestoxes hung all around the flight.

From the time they were setup I did daily nestbox checks, and from the time the eggs hatched I inspected and handled each chick a couple times a day. Time got away from me, and I did not pull the babies for hand-feeding....and I left the parents fledge and wean them out. 

There were well over a dozen fledglings, and by the time they were 3.5-4 months old I decided to remove them from the colony to their own flight. I was totally surprised when I netted them that none, screamed or tried to bite, and a few stepped up on my finger. ALL were more docile than a hand-fed bird.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

No doubt about it, inherited disposition counts for a lot. You handled your babies frequently (while they were in the nest at least) and that may have made a difference too. I don't know if you handled them after fledging, but if you didn't they had enough time to revert to wildness.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* I don't know if you handled them after fledging, but if you didn't they had enough time to revert to wildness.*
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I daily checked the nestboxes and handled them from hatch til they fledged. When they fledged the only interaction to the flight was changing food/water....no handling of the birds. They had been fledged for over a month by the time I netted them. I think alot of them being so docile was that they came from selectively bred parents for dispositions and parenting abilities.

AS to myself I prefer a parent raised bird over a hand-fed bird for my breeders. A handfed breeder has no fear of the human and will attack. A parent raised breeder respects the human checking the box and will calmly move aside when eggs or chicks are being checked. I have never been bit by a parent raised bird while they were on the nest, whereas I have had to pry handfed breeders from my fingers.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> AS to myself I prefer a parent raised bird over a hand-fed bird for my breeders. A handfed breeder has no fear of the human and will attack. A parent raised breeder respects the human checking the box and will calmly move aside when eggs or chicks are being checked. I have never been bit by a parent raised bird while they were on the nest, whereas I have had to pry handfed breeders from my fingers.


Haha I have found this to be the case as well...Fuzzy is SUPER aggressive and I'm the only one brave enough to remove him from the box (most likely because he thinks I'm a pretty girl cockatiel and so doesn't bite me as hard as my hubby.) Squiggles on the other hand, is totally different. She doesn't move, even if we pick her up off the babies/eggs to check on them. Of course, then she expects us to put her back as well lol. Screech just runs out of the box, he's smart lol.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Roxy...have you also noticed that it is the handfed rather than the parent/wild parents that are more prone to pluck the babies to get them to fledge?


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## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

WOW! Information overload  THANK YOU ALL! 

One of the eggs was chirping the morning and it hatched about an hour or two ago, it's so cute!!


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Aww congrats


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## Szafije (Jun 8, 2011)

Welcome little baby!!!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Roxy...have you also noticed that it is the handfed rather than the parent/wild parents that are more prone to pluck the babies to get them to fledge?


Yes, Fuzzy, my handfed male, is the only one to ever pluck, the big loser. He's cute, but he's such a dork. I will say though that I think it also depends on the birds personality...Snowball was also handfed, but I don't think he got as much attention as Fuzzy as a baby (he wasn't as cuddly when we first got him, took me about three months to make him as sweet as he is now) and he doesn't pluck and even helps babies out of eggs. So I think aggressiveness level has a lot to do with it too.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

That's great news on the baby!  Can't wait to see pics! 

Hmm.. was thinking about maybe someday breeding McGee. But if what you guys are saying holds true.. that means he will make a possibly horrible dad. Something definitely to think about. Now little peanut in the nest box... if I am successful at Gibbs and Hetty raising him.. perhaps I could consider him a more apt parent bird.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I don't see why McGee can't be given a shot...to be perfectly honest, even though he's aggressive and plucks, Fuzzy is the best dad I got. He always wants to feed babies, he helped Snowball and Hershey raise their first clutch (I'm starting to suspect that's why it was successful in the first place and will be testing this theory this season) so I don't think McGee will have an issue. Plus, Snowball is also handfed and he's a great dad as well (Hershey is the problem I think) but you won't know til you try him out!


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well I have a lot of time to think about it as he is only 5 and a half months old. 

Oops.. kind of hijacked a thread here. My apologies.


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## Mimi0212 (Feb 6, 2012)

DyArianna said:


> Well I have a lot of time to think about it as he is only 5 and a half months old.
> 
> Oops.. kind of hijacked a thread here. My apologies.


LOL!! Don't worry, I actually got more information than what I was looking for, hijack away


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