# What's the real deal on positive vs negative reinforcement?



## Sage (Sep 17, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I've done a lot of reading on taming/training and I am not sure I understand the favoritism for positive rather than negative reinforcement. My understanding of positive reinforcement is that the bird should be rewarded for behaviors you want to encourage, while ignored (but never punished) for behaviors that are not wanted.

What's the endgame though, for such a reward-only approach to parrot-parenting?

Suppose you did this as a parent to a human child - rewarding good behaviors and ignoring (but never punishing) bad ones. Every kid wants to please their parents and will gladly accept when you offer him $20 for a good report card or praise him for sharing. Yet every person also has natural tendencies toward things that enjoyable, but negative or even dangerous. Drugs, video game addictions, unsafe sex ... We can't just ignore these behaviors away in teenagers, so why is it different with animals?

Obviously our birds will not have access to such vices, but they too have behaviors that are "rewarding" to them at expense to their health or our happiness - picking out their favorite seeds, chewing clothes, landing on top of heads, etc. Of course they don't mean any malice since this is just what they do as birds, but can't and shouldn't we teach them better?

One argument I've seen opposing negative reinforcement is that birds are not "cause and effect" creatures, that they don't understand the connection between their actions and their consequences. However, it is hard to believe that an animal intelligent enough to learn that touching a clicker (cause) will lead to millet (effect) is unable to make that same sort of link between biting (cause) and a timeout (effect). Instead, the community advocates ignoring it, not reacting to the bite at all. This seems like a missed opportunity to teach an important lesson to a very teachable creature.

I suspect that this favoritism of positive reinforcement over negative reinforcement stems from concern that people will mistreat their animals, that they will get carried away with "punishment" and that they will turn toward animal abuse. Of course animal abuse is one of the worst things human beings can do, and we should do all we can to discourage it. But how many people mistreat their pets out of sadism and unresolved anger issues, versus frustration and desperation? I think the vast majority are well-meaning and short on options and patience. Perhaps if we considered the potential role of structured negative reinforcement in balance with positive reinforcement, we could encourage a more effective and efficient approach.

So here are my questions: 

*What guides your general approach toward disciplining your cockatiel versus accommodating their natural behaviors?*
*
Do you think that negative reinforcement can be used for positive results, and if so, how?*


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## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

Sage said:


> However, it is hard to believe that an animal intelligent enough to learn that touching a clicker (cause) will lead to millet (effect) is unable to make that same sort of link between biting (cause) and a timeout (effect). Instead, the community advocates ignoring it, not reacting to the bite at all. This seems like a missed opportunity to teach an important lesson to a very teachable creature.[/B]


This is where you got it wrong. The click is not the cause, it merely marks the behaviour you want to encourage. The click says to the bird "I'm happy you did what you just did, take some millet as a reward". However you don't have a "click" for when the bird bites you, you just go ahead and give him a time out, then the bird doesn't understand what happened or why he's being punished.

One of the problems with negative reinforcement is that you can't control the outcome. Let's say you, the person your bird looks up to for care and companionship, start disciplining your bird with timeouts. Bird gets stressed after a while. Bird starts plucking. Now what?

Birds don't bite out of viciousness, he's telling you to back off. He probably gave you 10 different signals saying that if you don't back off, he is going to bite. If you become a source of pain (physical or psychological) for your pet, he will become harder to work with and behavioural issues will follow.


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## CaliTiels (Oct 18, 2012)

Birds are very sensitive creature (No, I don't mean they need to be babied) but the if something bad happens to them, it can scar them and carry on those feelings, no matter the circumstance. An example, I rescue birds and a lovebird I cared for was flicked by the previous owners. I had to work with him not to automatically fear all people, we don't want to flick him, it's all about trust. And as for human children, I know you were using this just as an example, but just because you punish a child, you know the limitations to the point where they learned the effect of what negative behavior they did, and they know, "Ok, don't do that again." Birds don't understand what their actions did to cause this. It's not really about animal abuse, but sometimes if punishment is used (Which it shouldn't) and it is taken too far, like my lovebird, it is abuse. But mostly because it confuses them. They do good stuff, get praised, kind of good stuff, but slightly wrong, they are scolded. It mostly confuses them more than anything


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## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

Sorry, to answer your questions now



Sage said:


> *What guides your general approach toward disciplining your cockatiel versus accommodating their natural behaviors?*


I would never dream of disciplining my bird. She's not a dog, her grandparents were probably kicking back in Australia. Sure there are behaviours I discourage. I pick her up from the places I don't want her to be, put her in a place I want her to be instead, give her a scratch and some millet and ruffle her toys to get her interested. When she does it on her own, I give a scratch and some millet. 



Sage said:


> *
> Do you think that negative reinforcement can be used for positive results, and if so, how?*


It sure can, some birds are flooded with a good outcome. Others begin to feel that their owner (caregiver) can not be trusted. The exact same outcome can always be achieved with positive reinforcement, with no risk of damaging the relationship.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

One link is worth a thousand words: http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/info/gen-psychology.html

The most important part of it: Give up on the idea of bossing your bird around the way you might do with a dog. The bird doesn't understand the concept of submitting to authority. Don't try to punish a bird for doing something you don't like, because the bird doesn't understand that either. Instead, the bird will see you as a flock member who's being aggressive, and will respond the same way it would in the wild: by trying to escape from the conflict or by fighting back. If your attempt at domination is strong enough the bird might even respond as if you were a predator, by flying away in fear. Your best bet for a good relationship is to be aware of your bird's feelings and to have a reasonable degree of respect for them.

This doesn't mean that you can't set any limits and have to let the bird have its way all the time. You just have to choose your approach wisely. If there's an unwanted activity that the bird really enjoys, your best course is to make it impossible for that activity to take place, because you can't make the bird stop wanting to do it...Unwanted behavior occurs because the bird is getting some kind of reward from it, so the way to reduce this behavior is to find out what that reward is and then remove it.... There are some behaviors that can't be trained. You can't teach a bird to act contrary to its natural instincts. You can't teach a bird to do something that it really doesn't want to do, or to stop doing something that it really does want to do.


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## Sage (Sep 17, 2013)

Tequilagirl said:


> This is where you got it wrong. The click is not the cause, it merely marks the behaviour you want to encourage.


Thanks for your reply, that was a good insight. What do you think about "marking" the negative behavior by saying NO, in the same way that the positive behavior is marked by the sound of the clicker?



tielfan said:


> One link is worth a thousand words: http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/info/gen-psychology.html


That was a great read. I noticed you put the link to the homepage in the Sticky, but I'd recommend you link directly to that page if possible! It's just the sort of basic guidelines I've been looking for since I got interested in training.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Have you seen or read any of Barbara Heidendreich?
Negative Reinforcement can be and is used to train birds (Clipping is exactly that) and it works. That is why so many think it is ok to do this.
That is the best example I can give you though it will cause trouble, it is being honest.
Sometimes it is very hard to know without experience just how something can be interpreted by any bird.
I have been to three work shops with Barbara and I consider I still have a long way to go. 
She does run a very good work shop showing how to and how not to do things.
An example was. She was going to do a bit of training with a SC2 and the handler bought it in on a "T" stand. It was more interested in it's handler and making sexual displays.
It climbed down to the floor and was walking around, being non cooperative in stepping up. So a man pushes his hand into it's chest so that he forced it stepped up.
Now I know a huge number of people will tell you to do this! But a positive way would see the bird come to you and step up. No pushing into the chest to force the response. Which is a negative. When explained to the man he argued and then left. Embarrassed that he got it wrong.
She will always tell you it is better to work with flighted birds and she prefers this, as they have the choice to fly off when they have had enough.

The hardest thing to sort, in any training or actions, is figuring out what is negative and what is reinforcing.
Here is another classic Barbara use's to show a negative action. Lady walks around with her bird on her arm , moving her arm up and down. According to her she is exercising her bird! Right! Well actually the bird while flapping and getting some sort of poor exercise, is actually freaking out and holding on for grim death. Owner could not see this until Barbara pointed it out to her.
Barbara does some very good books and DVD's on training that are well worth looking into. Also if you ever get the chance to go to one of her work shops please consider going. You will not be disappointed. 

I hope I have helped explain a little? Without getting to offside with some members.


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## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

Sage said:


> Thanks for your reply, that was a good insight. What do you think about "marking" the negative behavior by saying NO, in the same way that the positive behavior is marked by the sound of the clicker?


I don't have much experience, it's only limited to training 2 birds so what I say are only my opinions. I can say "NO" in a calm assertive way Cesar Millan style until I'm blue in the face, and take my bird off my keyboard every time she wants to rip the keys off. Eight months later she still doesn't get that it's unwanted behaviour. That, or she doesn't care.

I will never punish her for anything. My relationship with her is very important to me. She trusts me completely and I wouldn't risk that relationship for anything. I stand by what I said, everything you can achieve with negative reinforcement you can achieve with positive, and I don't have to worry about unknowingly ruining what we have nurtured for many months.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Tequilagirl said:


> I don't have much experience, it's only limited to training 2 birds so what I say are only my opinions. I can say "NO" in a calm assertive way Cesar Millan style until I'm blue in the face, and take my bird off my keyboard every time she wants to rip the keys off. Eight months later she still doesn't get that it's unwanted behaviour. That, or she doesn't care.
> 
> I will never punish her for anything. My relationship with her is very important to me. She trusts me completely and I wouldn't risk that relationship for anything. I stand by what I said, everything you can achieve with negative reinforcement you can achieve with positive, and I don't have to worry about unknowingly ruining what we have nurtured for many months.


Yes you can say "No" as with any group their is a certain amount of letting another know when they do something you dislike.
The same way it is ok to give very short timeout in the cage. But this has to be followed by something positive. And it has to be done immediately, not a few mins after the fact. Same as if your bird is doing something wrong, turning your back on it and walking away can also work. But again this only need to be a very short time, before you return. With clicker training you do not need to be close to the bird in question. Where if you use your voice it pays to be close.

As for Cesar Millan! He works on dominance and being a pack leader. which does not work with bird training. If you watch you will see he kicks the dogs in the groin. Or jerks on the lead. This is obedience training. Nothing he does is Positive Reinforcement Training.


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## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

clawnz said:


> As for Cesar Millan! He works on dominance and being a pack leader. which does not work with bird training. If you watch you will see he kicks the dogs in the groin. Or jerks on the lead. This is obedience training. Nothing he does is Positive Reinforcement Training.


I know  It was a joke to illustrate that it just doesn't work (for birds).


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