# Help with my new baby!!



## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Hello - I am a brand new member....just joined today. I have a pair of tiels that recently hatched their first egg which came as a huge shock to me. I was told if I didn't provide the right tools for an egg to hatch, they wouldn't...well one did! 

So here I am - with a sweet little "guy" that hatched around Feb 17th-18th and I am scared to death. Mom and Dad have been doing a great job with him, but last night it looks like the male pulled out a bunch of the baby's feathers on his head and neck so after being counseled by a local pet store I decided to take him out and begin hand feeding today. 

Here's my issue - he is totally inflated (before I tried feeding for the first time.) I have been online researching what a normal full crop should look like and this isn't it. The pictures do look similar to a ruptured air sac/sour crop and I have no idea what to do. The nearest avian vet to me - if I could even afford the appt. - is almost 2 hours away. If anyone has advice that could help me I would very much appreciate it!!

~Erika


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Hello and welcome to the forum... Here is srtiels website and on sour crop and what you can do http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html and im sure she will be on soon to help you


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thank you for posting that link - I'm afraid I still have questions and would still love any responses people may have...thanks in advance!


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## Debbie05 (Feb 9, 2010)

Do you have a picture of what he looks like?


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

@aebbie - yes but I'm new here...trying to figure out how to upload pictures...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If you can post several clear pix's that would help. You can part the feathers on the crop and get several pix's. The *easiest* way to get a clear close up shot is to take the pix at 18" away, using the auto setting on the camera. when you download the pix *crop it* so that there is just a little surrounding area of the area you want us to look at. 

To post pix's...when you reply, select the 'Go Advanced'...it will bring up another window...scroll down and Click on 'Manage Attachments' Select browse to find the pix's, and click on upload for each one. Once done close the Manage Attachments window, and finish and post your posting.

Here is an online Album of mine....does the baby look like any of these: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/Babies%20in%20Trouble/


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thank you for posting that link - I'm afraid I still have questions and would still love any responses people may have...thanks in advance!
-----------------------------------------

*READ* the article in the link. if there is anything in the article DO IT!

We *can not* help you if you do not know what to problem is, or post pix's to show what is going on. *AND* detail how much you are feeding the bird, how often, what thickness/consistency, allowing to empty prior to each feeding etc. MORE info please....


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

*Pictures*

Here are a few pictures of the baby. I took him away from his parents because overnight last night one of them apparently plucked out a lot of feathers on and around his head and neck.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The pix's help. Some MORE info though. In the last pix is that what was in the crop when pull (and how long was it filled like this) or is that formula in the crop. And are those red veins showing?

if the crop feels gassy, and very soft and fluidy, and there are veins apparent you may have sour crop. This crap has to be emptyied from the crop. Try and find a local breeder or someone to empty and flush the crop.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

More pics...


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Hi Susan - thank you for your responses!!
Regarding:"crop feels gassy, and very soft and fluidy, and there are veins apparent" - answer to this is yes...veins are apparent and feels very fluidy and gassy. I can see liquid floating in some of it. I took baby out of cage as of 11:00AM this morning and this is what he looked like - I would say it's about the same as he looked last night. 

I went to my local pet store and spoke to a "cockatiel person" there who sold me formula and gave me a couple of pipettes for feeding. I was afraid maybe the baby was hungry so I did feed him a little of the formula, maybe one small pipette full - but he was not very receptive to it so I stopped and got online and now joined here hoping for help.

I've read so many things online here - even someone that suggested trying to poke a tiny hole in the air sac to deflate it - I know I am in no way qualified for this so of course I did not try to do it. I was hoping to find something I could give the baby orally that might help.

On your advice, I will start searching for a local breeder to see if I can find someone to help.... I feel horrible!!! I thought I was doing all the right things with this little baby.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Your chick has sour crop... It's also dehydrating. And since the viens are present there is high rish of the viens absorbing pathogens (yeast and bacteria) in the crop and it going systemic (throughout the body and organs)...and once this happens it is hard to turn this around.

Here is a link: You have two options: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html do what is listed in the article OR go to a vet ASAP. The thing that has to bee done ASAP is th empty and flush the crop, and to also get this baby rehydrated.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Here are pictures of my little one at different stages so you can get an idea of his progress...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You *do not* have a ruptured air sac.

You have sour crop. At this stage this can be irreversable, and fatal, if aggressice actions are not taken.

A pipette is not good to use. Go to a pharmacy and in the baby section see if they have any syringes....either 5 or 10 cc/ml. Also while there pick up a baby digital thermometer. *ANY *fluids or formula that is put into the chick should be approx 104-106 degrees. *ALWAYS* feed where the food/fluid is fed into the *birds* right side of the throat. this lessens risks of aspiration.

make a hospital box. In an emergency a plan cardboard box works fine. Put 2-3" of bedding in the bottom of the box. Use a heating pad set on low...have part of the heating pad under the box and part going up the side (forming an *L* shape) Lightly wipe or mist just the inside walls of the box with water. Close the top flaps of the box, and let the inside warm up. Ideally you want an enviroment inside the box that feel warm and moist like a suana.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Here are pictures of my little one at different stages so you can get an idea of his progress*
*-----------------------------*

Your little one started out normally....what a cutie  

One problem I see is the lack of a decent bedding. Were there other eggs, or babies and what happened if so. The main problem with what you used in the nest was that it would've been very hard for the chick to retain heat, etc. This is styress and with stress things go wrong. if the parents started plucking it after it was fully feathered, many times they will do this to get the chick to fledge, and it is also an indication that they want to start another clutch.

Also what was being fed to the parents to feed the chick? many times if alot of soft foods are given this can be the main contribuor to sour crop in the nest.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Ok so a vet is not possible in the next 12 hours so I want to try to follow the steps given in your link. I need to run to the local CVS drugstore - I will get Alka Seltzer and some syringes and what else? If you can quickly respond to me with a list of everything I might need to buy at a drugstore or pet store right now I will leave immediately to go get them... meanwhile I am reading all the info I can find on your site...


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Sorry - I hadn't read your responses before I posted last. So I will get those syringes, a heating pad, alka seltzer...and?

As for the bedding - I was afraid I wasn't I wasn't providing the right things. There is a different nesting material than shown in the first pic with the paper towels...I had him in a small cardboard box on the floor of the cage, but he kept getting out of it so I took it out. This baby was the only one to hatch out of three eggs - and please remember I was not tying to have babies. I was told if I didnt supply nesting materials the eggs would not hatch. I feel just awful - will have to have my boyfriend drive me to get the supplies because I am crying too hard to drive. Thank you SO MUCH for offering what help you can.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Awwww dont feel too bad its not your fault you are doing whats best for them


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

A few things for your shopping list. Get the spices to make the remedy, they *do *work. Get *plain or original* Alka Seltzer. And plain unflavored store band yogurt.

Do you have a Whole Foods or healthfood store nearby? If so if you can get some Capryl (caprlic acid) capsules these will be useful as a natural form of an antifungal to treat yeast. if they don't have the Capryl, then ask id they have Pau 'd Arco extract. This is also great for yeast and or a mild bacteria. Just 1-2 drops per feeding for about a week. The capryl is 1/4 capsule per feeding for a week.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If you need any verbal help you can click on my Mousebird website link in my signature. Go to the contacts page and it has my phone #. Feel free to phone anytime....I can talk you through several of the things you need to do.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Okay - in a panic trying to save my little guys life I tried to do the "turn him upside down" method of getting the stuff out of his crop and it seems to have worked - although there still seems to be a bit more in there....see attached picture. Not sure where the seeds in this pic came from as I feed my cockatiels a ZuPreem pelleted food? Thanks so much for the help with the shopping list - I'm off to get everything including the spice mix ingredients now. Susan I will definitely take you up on your offer of talking to me on the phone in a little while!!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

That is great you got the crop emptied 

The seeds almost look like seseme seeds...do you give bread with them on the crust? Or if you also give eggfood sometimes it will have some small seeds in it.

As to an entirely pelleted diet, the parents need a varied diet of seed, pellets, green/veggies when they have babies. I have had pellets be a cause of sour crop, especially if the surrounding environment is to warm.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Hi again Susanne - I don't give the birds any bread, but I have been giving them a nestling supplement so I guess that's where the seeds came from - good to know! I haven't ever been able to get my adult tiels to accept any fruits and veggies even though I have continued to try introducing them...I have also given millet spray here and there.

So here are pics of what I got out shopping - also a pic of the bedding I have been using for the baby and the new little plastic "cage" I just got at the store - shown with heating pad on it in an "L" shape. Heating pad has a low, medium, and high setting - which is best?

NO ONE here in Mass. carries catheter tubing - I went to Rite Aid, CVS, and Walgreens and they all said it has to come from a hospital supply place only. I bought different size syringes and aquarium tubing in case I could make that work??


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Ok re-read your posts and saw I need to keep the heating pad on low!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

It was nice talking with you. It sounds like you are on top of the crop problem 

OK...if you have a regular vet, you may be able to ask him to write a script for the catherter tubing. A regular vet would also have the supplies to do sub-Q fluids. He can also run a gram stain to see if there is any budding yeast or excessive bacteria in the droppings. Even if not an avian vet a regular vet can do cultures, providing where he sends his labs to also does avians/cockatiels. If antifungals (such as Nystatin) or antibiotics (such as Baytril) are needed these can be from your regular vet. Most vets have a formulary book as to calculating dosages. 

I can't wait to see your little one feathered out...it looks like it is going to be a real beauty.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks Susanne it was great talking to you, too! Thanks a million for the support! The Alka Seltzer treatment went well and he's already pooped so now off to mix up formula for a feeding - he's begging to eat like crazy!!! *fingers crossed!*


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Sounds good...especially the begging. If the little one was real bad it would be lethargic and not wanting to beg or eat. If begging and active it sounds like you caught the problem in time. Now for the next few days allow to fully empty between feedings. With the few cc's you'll be feeding it should be emptying approx every 4-6 hours. If after this time the baby is not completely empty you may have to empty the crop again. Keep up the good work


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Good morning. Ugh - I am still worried sick about the little one. He seems starving so I feed him but the crop just inflates again every time and I still see the little red veins everywhere. I feel like his crop needs to be emptied again but then I feel like he will starve. He definitely seems to continue to dry out and does not seem to be rehydrating at all. He is still loudly begging for food, though. I am looking into finding a vet this morning once 8:00AM hits. Ugh. I am a terrible bird mom.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

no you're not
you're doing everything youve been told and srtiels is the best person around to tell you these things! she knows everything there is and you're trying your best. that counts  keep on trying, take him to the vet and i hope all goes well for you


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thank you Dally...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...is the baby pooping? If it is pooping then it is digesting some of the formula. If not or only a little and the crop is slow, you might ask the vet for an anti-fungal and antibiotic, AND also show you how to do Sub-Q fluids at home. If the baby is going into GI or crop stasis the Sub-Q fluids is about the only way to get things moving, and some fluids in nutrients into it. AND, if crop movement is slow, and the vet puts the baby on antibiotics, it will not get the benefits from oral antibiotics, so the way to go is injectable. It may take several days of Sub-Q fluids to get things moving.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

is there any 24 hour vets in your area?


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

As I'm on hold with my local non-avian dog vet to see if they can help me administer sub-q fluids, I wanted to post a picture of what I hope is something positive - poop! I put white tissue under him in his little nest so I could clearly see if he did anything and here's the result...thoughts?


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

I want to mention that I cleaned the cage up the second after I took this picture to show you!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The consistency of the solid part of the poop looks good. the urates (white part) are not as good and the baby will benefit from Sub-Q hydration.

You have a beautiful golden pearl...which can be either sex.

OK...if your dog vet will do the Sub-Q, but is not sure of the sites here is a pix: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/Babies%20in%20Trouble/?action=view&current=injection-site-for-fluids.jpg The Sub-Q fluids should be warm. The easiest way to accomplish this is to draw the solution into a syringe with a 25ga. needle. Cap the syringe and place it in a warm cup of water to warm the solution. 

The injection site is the loose area of skin between the knee and the hip. *ALWAYS* inject the fluid under the skin, aiming towards the tail end of the bird. You *do not* want to inject towards the abdomen or the direction to the front of the bird. the reason why is that on the sides of the abdomen are air sacs (which can't be seen) and if the injected solution is injected into them the bird will drown instantly.

Another injection site is on the center of the back, under the skin, up near the shoulders.

1-2Ccc at each site. As the fluid is injected you will see a water bubble form under the skin. As the body absorbs this into the system it will go down. Once the area is flat then you can inject again.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Here are some helpful pix's if you can get the catheters. And also if you opt for injectable antibiotics how to read dosages and where to inject.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks again Susanne! Vet appointment in two hours - will post an update!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Good luck. Print out any pix's to take if needed. OH...since the vet will be handling the baby you would prefer that it is almost empty. This way food in the crop doesn't accidently get smished up the neck while handling, which can asporate the chick. When the vet handles the bird (if unfamiliar with babies with crops) point out to keep any pressure from the hands near the crop.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Good luck, fingers crossed for the little one!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Oh...I was thinking of a few helpful things since you will be handfeeding.

Rule #1 is to never save and reuse mixed formula. 

How you can overcome mixing too much each feeding is to know how much you will be feeding...such as using the scales to calculate 10% of body weight. If (example only) you will be feeding 5cc of formula, first draw/pull up 5cc of fluid into your syringe. Warm/heat the water, and mix in the powdered formula, and any meds, etc. 

Check the temp of the formula for 104-106 degrees. With a small amount of formula it can cool down quickly so place the mixed container cup (I like to use shot glasses for single babies) in a pan of hot water. 

In pre-measuring the water, this helps to eliminate excess waste of mixed formula.


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Again, Susanne, I can't thank you enough for all your help and advice. 

I just got home after being away with baby for 5 hours driving all over to get help. First stop: the avian vet. I stressed that I wanted to get him fluids so that's what we got there - some sub Q fluids with B Vitamins in them. The vet said he thought this bird breeder about a half hour away from his office would be able to help me the most so he sent us there. Her name is Edna and she owns a shop called The Crystal Parrot. She was pretty disgusted with me like I was this flaky idiot that took on a baby bird when I shouldn't have and told me all the things she thought I had done/was doing wrong. The vet warned me she'd be like this, so I just let it roll off my back.

She said the powdered Kaytee baby food the store sold me yesterday was crap, and she sold me different powdered formula with another supplemental powder to add to it for vitamins and to help with hydration. She fed the baby for me and I was relieved to see I had been feeding him the exact same way. She said every 4-5 hours and she didn't seem too worried about his crop and didn't think it looked "sour" at this point.

So, please wish me luck as I continue to hand feed the little guy and try to do everything in my power to make sure he grows up healthy and happy....thanks to the folks here for the responses and support!!


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

I hope everything is ok


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## crinklepot (Nov 18, 2010)

Good luck to you and the baby! I hope everything turns out ok


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks LPerry and Crinklepot! Crinklepot how did you create such a cool signature with the colorful bird pics??


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*and she sold me different powdered formula with another supplemental powder to add to it for vitamins and to help with hydration. *
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*

I glad the vet was able to help, and sorry the shop owner was cranky.

OK...the Kaytee formula was fine. As to what she sold you I think it may have been more to make a sale. *AND, PLEASE* do not add the vitamin supplements. All brands of formula contain vitamins and adding more can cause then to build up in the body to create a toxicity. Also *do not* add supplements like protein or protein powders. When there is suspected dehydrated it could affect renal/kidney function and contribute to kidney failure.

You can draw out and use (mix 50/50 with water) some of the Sub-Q fluid you got from the vet to use as the water for mixing the formula.

Shame on Enda though...you are doing a GREAT job  What you are faced with is the worst that can happen with a baby and you have kept it alive so far. if you had not acted as fast as you have it may have been close to death or died by now.

Keep up the good work


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Oh...one other thought. It is not good to switch formulas once you start handfeeding...*BUT* if you do, what you do is mix up 50/50 of each brand together, and then with each feeding reduce the ratio of the former formula until you are using the new formula over several feeding. the bag might have some conversion/container info on it.


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## crazy4tiels88 (Aug 10, 2008)

I liked kaytee better than the zupreem handfeeding formula and you get more for your money and its thicker than zupreem when i used zupreem when i mixed it you had to use alot to get the right thickness! And Zupreem is 12-15 dollars for 1 pound bag. So i would stick with kaytee


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## Debbie05 (Feb 9, 2010)

I have always used kaytee myself for years and like it better then most as it doesn't clump. I hate some formulas that are lumpy and had to use.


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## missprice (Mar 11, 2011)

so glad u and baby are getting sorted keep us updated on progress


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## Belinda (Oct 9, 2010)

wow what an ordeal! You're handling it well PetLover, you may not know what you're doing now, but you're on a steep learning curve. You'll have a fair idea what to do now if it ever happens again. Hope your little guy gets better soon


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Update on the little one: I felt so good last night after all of our running around to get the baby bird some help... I am feeding him every 4-5 hours so I fed at 10 last night, then again at 3:00am and all seemed ok...baby was still interested in eating and had some energy. Then for the 8:00am feeding, it seemed he had just given up on me... He felt cold, no interest in eating, couldn't even hold his own head up.

I sat with him wrapped up in a towel on my chest/under my chin trying to will him to live, but I feared based on how he looked and acted he was moments away from passing. After about an hour, I stood up and was going to lay him back in his little carrier, and suddenly he was alert and begging for food again!! I raced to make him some formula and he ate a little and now I am cautiously optimistic again. Those of you pulling for the little guy please continue to send positive vibes his way!! I am doing everything I possibly can and think if my tears alone could save him he'd be all set!! Crazy how attached I've become in such a short time, but I'm sure everyone here on this forum knows what that's like!

Susanne I followed your advice about mixing the formula 50/50 and have been using the electrolyte formula you gave me as the water I mix the formula with. I'm glad to hear so many of you have been happy with the Kaytee so I wasn't feeding the "wrong" stuff.

P.S. - I was told by the vet we will not be able to determine the sex of this little one just from the colors/markings...or at least not yet. I am in the process of coming up with a new name for this baby that would be fitting for a boy or a girl....but I do find myself thinking of lots of girl names for some reason. Open to suggestions...thanks again for the tremendous support here! So glad I found you guys - especially you Susanne!


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## crinklepot (Nov 18, 2010)

PetLover72 said:


> Thanks LPerry and Crinklepot! Crinklepot how did you create such a cool signature with the colorful bird pics??


It took me ages lol but I just resized all the pics I wanted to the same size, used Jasc Paintshop Pro to change the colours in each picture, then put them together! It was pretty easy to do once I knew how to do it 

I'm glad to see that your little one is doing well, my fingers are crossed and I hope he keeps improving


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks Crinklepot - the little guy needs all the well wishes he can get!! Thanks for the info about your cool photo montage!

Ok so here are more pictures of the baby and one of his poop. His chest still seems a little inflated and both the vet and Edna yesterday thought there is air in his crop but neither seemed overly worried about it?? These pics were taken about an hour and a half after a small feeding. Let me know if you have any thoughts... he has been preening himself which I am taking as a good sign!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Air in the crop is normal, if you feel there's a bunch you can try to push it out but otherwise it shouldn't be an issue. Sure is a cutie you got there!


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## crinklepot (Nov 18, 2010)

Sorry I don't have a clue about crop problems or anything, but I just want to say, he is SO cute!!


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Thanks ladies! I was hoping Susanne might post here....bet she is busy. I agree thisis one cute little baby - I'm happy to report he is doing really well tonight! Whew!


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## Debbie05 (Feb 9, 2010)

He is looking a lot better. He is very cute.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm glad he's doing so well! It sounds like he got chilled this morning. Babies that get too cold can actually appear to be dead, then "come back to life" if they're warmed up again before it's too late.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

glad to hear he's picking up! i hope he pulls through!

are you keeping him?


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## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

tielfan said:


> I'm glad he's doing so well! It sounds like he got chilled this morning. Babies that get too cold can actually appear to be dead, then "come back to life" if they're warmed up again before it's too late.


I was thinking the same thing. I had the same problem last year. I ended up having to wrap blankets around my aquarium at night to keep it a little warmer.


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## Chez (Feb 17, 2011)

What an amazing thread! I nearly went insane when we had a blackout, just after I read you were on the way to the vet, & had to wait until the power came back on to see what eventuated.

Congratulations to both Erika & Susanne - what a great team!


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## missprice (Mar 11, 2011)

glad baby is doing well so far s good


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Tielfan and Mentha - I think you must be right....and whatever the reason, so glad 24 hours later just got done with a feeding and he seems to be doing better still!! Dally, I think after going through this with him, chances are excellent that I will be keeping him!! If I change my mind for some reason, I know I will be meticulous about who I would adopt him out to. 

Chez - glad you got back online!! lol I've been going nearly insane myself :0)


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i would be too... you didnt work this hard to keep him alive just to go to a bad home  so of course either you'd keep him or be very very picky lol


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## PetLover72 (Mar 14, 2011)

Just wanted to keep people still following this thread updated. I have decided to go with the first name I'd picked out the week the baby hatched which is Woodstock - as a yellow ball of fuzz he reminded me of the character from Charlie Brown - call him Woody for short :0) Going with calling it a "him" since I have no way of knowing right now and wanted to pick something! lol

So, Woody is still doing well. Today I bought a reptile heating pad called "Repti Therm Mini" which is made to be used only on the little plastic terrariums... going to hook it up tonight and will love being done with getting up every two hours to turn the heating pad back on! lol

I still feel like his crop is puffy and am monitoring it and still following all of srtiels advice. Some of the feathers his parents plucked off are starting to grow back in and he loves preening himself! I'll post a couple of new pics tomorrow...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

So glad he's doing well!


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