# Discipline/biting



## willowsalbus (Nov 4, 2010)

I thought Albus was going to grow out of this, but he's still biting. And because we used to grab him from the cage, he freaks when we stick our hands in to get him (this also might be because we have to force medicine in his mouth and therefore restrain him).

I tried blowing on his face every time he bites, but it's just not working. I know not to tap on their beak. What else can I do other than use strong tones in my voice?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This is more of a "train the human" situation. Birds don't understand the concept of authority and obedience very well because it's not something they have to deal with in the wild. They don't understand the concept of punishment either. You can't directly train a bird not to bite in self-defense so instead the human has to learn how to structure the situation so they don't provoke the bird into wanting to bite. 

It's difficult in your situation because you have to give him medicine against his will and there's no way to make him understand that you're doing it for his own good. So unless you can figure out some other way to get the medicine into him, you're not going to be able to teach him to trust hands. But you can avoid grabbing and provoking him when it isn't absolutely necessary, and use food bribery to show him that good things can also come from hands. 

You didn't say anything about step-ups, but if he doesn't like to step up on your hand you can use a hand-held stick for step-ups. He might be more comfortable this way and it will keep your hand out of biting range.


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## willowsalbus (Nov 4, 2010)

tielfan said:


> This is more of a "train the human" situation. Birds don't understand the concept of authority and obedience very well because it's not something they have to deal with in the wild. They don't understand the concept of punishment either. You can't directly train a bird not to bite in self-defense so instead the human has to learn how to structure the situation so they don't provoke the bird into wanting to bite.
> 
> It's difficult in your situation because you have to give him medicine against his will and there's no way to make him understand that you're doing it for his own good. So unless you can figure out some other way to get the medicine into him, you're not going to be able to teach him to trust hands. But you can avoid grabbing and provoking him when it isn't absolutely necessary, and use food bribery to show him that good things can also come from hands.
> 
> You didn't say anything about step-ups, but if he doesn't like to step up on your hand you can use a hand-held stick for step-ups. He might be more comfortable this way and it will keep your hand out of biting range.


Thanks for the info! I didn't know that they were so different from other domesticated animals (i.e. dogs).

Well the vet said one day this medicine will stop working so we might have to use another that is crushed into his food, so maybe that will work.

He does step up. He does it well and he does it all the time, EXCEPT when I'm first trying to get him out of his cage, then it's just bitefest.

He has eaten peas out of my hand (that's the only thing we've found that he likes other than cheerios) so I guess I could do that more.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> He does step up. He does it well and he does it all the time, EXCEPT when I'm first trying to get him out of his cage, then it's just bitefest.


Will he come out of the cage on his own if you put a treat outside the door? The treat doesn't have to be in your hand. Then once he's out maybe you can work on step-ups etc. Obviously you want to eventually have him step up inside the cage, but you can work on that more once he's better about taking treats from your hand.

If you're interested, my website has more on bird psychology at http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.org/info/gen-psychology.html


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## willowsalbus (Nov 4, 2010)

tielfan said:


> Will he come out of the cage on his own if you put a treat outside the door? The treat doesn't have to be in your hand. Then once he's out maybe you can work on step-ups etc. Obviously you want to eventually have him step up inside the cage, but you can work on that more once he's better about taking treats from your hand.
> 
> If you're interested, my website has more on bird psychology at http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.org/info/gen-psychology.html


We haven't tried that yet but I will. His biting is just getting to a crazy point.


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## willowsalbus (Nov 4, 2010)

Still need help with this I'm afraid. He's still biting, and it's actually worse now.

I covered up the mirror because I thought maybe that was the source of aggressiveness, trying to protect 'the other bird' and because he was obsessed. 

He used to sit on my chest and let me rub him and be a sweetie, but now he's just bite bite bite.

Which I know isn't helped by the fact that we have to force feed him medicine for the rest of his life.

I tried the reward thing, like if he didn't bite me he got some seed, but I don't think he grasped the concept.

Help!


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## olive juice (Mar 30, 2009)

Ugh, was trying to find a particular youtube video for you but I can't. 
Anyways, it was basically a training video to teach a cockatiel that hands aren't threatening and good things can come from them. The lady in the video had her cockatiel perched on whatever, and would slowly bring her hand close (but not all the way) and hold it still for a second. If the cockatiel didn't bite, she made noise with a clicker (I actually think she just used a pen cap), praised the bird, and he received a treat (in this case, millet). If the bird did bite, she simply moved her hand away and did nothing. She repeated this over and over until she was actually allowed to touch the bird's crest and chest without it so much as moving. The session only lasted about ten minutes but she did this several times a day. Consistency is important in training...it's difficult in your situation because you have to give Albus medicine which can turn even the most bonded of pets into hand-fearing creatures. (I know because I've personally seen it happen.) I don't know how much training you've tried, but maybe if you set aside certain times a day where you train and stick to it, you'll start to see results.


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## Belinda (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't know whether it would make a difference, but if you use gloves while giving the medicine (like cotton gardening gloves) it would make your hands appear different and stop him from being able to bite you and feel your flesh... worth a try.

My tiel hates tissues now because I used to put a tissue between my hand and her when I gave her medicine, but she didn't really develop an issue with my hands. She's still naughty sometimes and nips but never bites.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

olive juice said:


> Ugh, was trying to find a particular youtube video for you but I can't.
> Anyways, it was basically a training video to teach a cockatiel that hands aren't threatening and good things can come from them. The lady in the video had her cockatiel perched on whatever, and would slowly bring her hand close (but not all the way) and hold it still for a second. If the cockatiel didn't bite, she made noise with a clicker (I actually think she just used a pen cap), praised the bird, and he received a treat (in this case, millet). If the bird did bite, she simply moved her hand away and did nothing. She repeated this over and over until she was actually allowed to touch the bird's crest and chest without it so much as moving. The session only lasted about ten minutes but she did this several times a day. Consistency is important in training...it's difficult in your situation because you have to give Albus medicine which can turn even the most bonded of pets into hand-fearing creatures. (I know because I've personally seen it happen.) I don't know how much training you've tried, but maybe if you set aside certain times a day where you train and stick to it, you'll start to see results.


This is what your talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTiYpobrG8Q called pearl clicker training trust exercise


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## sissy (Sep 21, 2010)

Make sure there isn't anything in his cage that he can see his reflection in. I had a perch which had a tiny little washer which held it on, Carly (yes a girls name for a male bird) could see himself and was spending way too much time around it. I covered up that washer and I got my sweet bird back.


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## Duckybird (Sep 13, 2010)

Is there any way someone else can give him his medicine until you get his fear of your hands under control. Irene Pepperberg remarked in her book how she would never do unpleasant things to Alex in the first few years of their relationship because she didn't want to traumatize him. If someone else could give him meds until you got his trust back, this might work. This past summer, when Ducky was flighted, I used to put him on my chest, and then physically restrain him while stepping outside to his outdoor cage, if I had forgotten it out there after washing. I was amazed that he tolerated it (he didn't like it, mind you), and kept up the training afterwards of restraining him. He never developed a fear of my hands or biting issues. So I believe it can be done. Hope this helps.


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## olive juice (Mar 30, 2009)

Belinda said:


> I don't know whether it would make a difference, but if you use gloves while giving the medicine (like cotton gardening gloves) it would make your hands appear different and stop him from being able to bite you and feel your flesh... worth a try.
> 
> My tiel hates tissues now because I used to put a tissue between my hand and her when I gave her medicine, but she didn't really develop an issue with my hands. She's still naughty sometimes and nips but never bites.


You have a point. When I had to administer medicine for my tiel (granted, it was only for a couple of weeks) I used a towel. He never became afraid of my hands (though he would get very grouchy when I'd reach in to take him out, knowing that he was about to get medicine) but he was TERRIFIED of the towel.


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## willowsalbus (Nov 4, 2010)

Yeah, we already had to cover the mirror. Thanks for all the tips everyone, I'm going to try that and tell you how it goes.

He doesn't freak out anymore when we stick our hands in, but he does nip and scream a bit. When he's out he steps up good all the time. And I have been giving him scritches, so maybe he thinks hands aren't all bad. Now if he would stop biting my face when I have him on my shoulder, that would be good.


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