# crop capacity?



## pluto

Hi all! OK so today we had some success considering it was both our bird and my first day of full handfeeding. At first I was not successful but I soon figured out why. I was nervous and didn't get the syringe right into its mouth good enough. 
So the last two feedings rocked because we finally clicked.

But my next fear of course is overfeeding. While I know the chart says it should have 8ml per feeding, I read there should still be a little food left in the crop during the day right? So not totally empty. And when I feed it I am shocked at how fast and big it's crop gets. 
The last feeding I got 6ml into it and then I stopped. I think maybe he/she would have taken more but I was nervous that its crop looked so big.
Can you experience people look at these pics and see what you think about the crop size. Should I go bigger and how do I know how big is too big!

Also above the crop is a red bump that was there when we bought the bird. I think it is the neck/voice box area but I do worry that maybe it could be something else. What do you think??


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## srtiels

You should not be using charts as a guideline to handfeed. Many of these charts are a 'one size fits all' guideline that does not take into consideration of the size weight of the bird and if it is normal for it's age.

Rule of thumb should be *10% of body weight per feeding* Having a scales that weighs in grams is helpful (weigh bird when crop is empty) to determine how much to deed. For example 8cc (ml) is the amount to feed an 80 gram weight baby.

In addition to amount the consistency/thickness is important for the chick to receive the correct density of nutrient content per feeding. Formula should be the thickness of baby food applesauce.

Temperature is also important (104-106 degrees). Too cool and it can cause problems and slow down digestion, and too warm and it can scald the throat and/or crop, which damage does not show for a couple days.


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## DyArianna

It is a little scary watching that thing bulge and bulge and bulge.  But as your baby gets older, you will see that it really doesn't seem to stick out as much or seem to be swollen as much because they use the food and nutrients up. You can still feed your baby more. I would make sure to give the baby its full feeding. It will be fine. 
As far as the red mark goes.. I'm no expert on it as I have not encountered it yet.. but it almost looks like it could be crop burn. Meaning someone fed him formula that was too hot. Perhaps someone else can confirm or suggest another reason for it.


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## srtiels

*but it almost looks like it could be crop burn.*
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Crop burn would be lower in the crop.

Please don't try to feed more formula because it looks like the baby can hold it. What happens is the tissue stretch to hold the extra capacity of food, and this in turn puts a strain on the muscles and results in an overstretched crop. This can lead to other crop problems that can be difficult to correct.


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## pluto

Edited because I just read the other responses! Thank god you don't think it is crop burn. I know if it was, it wasn't me but it still doesn't make me feel better either way because I read how painful the condition is. 
Srtiels,
Your posts have been great! I have been reading them through the forum. Thanks for the reassurance it isn't burn. Whew. I will keep my eye on it. It feels hard and part of it's neck but i havn't seen other birds with it so I just wondered.

As for the feeding, I weighed it with an empty crop this morning and it weighed 2.75 ounces so I figured out this would be about 80 grams and therefore 8cc's but I would rather feed more often than overstuff. I just wasn't sure if she is asking for more if I should keep giving at one feeding if it doesn't exceed 8 mls.

When you read the many what if's and see the gruesome pictures, you sure don't want to make mistakes!

I will weight it again in the morning and see what feeding I should aim for. I just don't want to stretch the crop.
Thanks!
Willow


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## srtiels

The redness on the upper area of the crop could be a puncture mark from a toe nail or a plucked pin feather. Rather than guess you might want to go to a vet tomorrow and have the vet check the baby to make sure it is fine.

As to micro-waved foods...even if it feel fine to the touch there could still be tiny hot spots of particles in the formula that can cause serious damage to the tissue.

I'm not sure how many grams 2.75 Oz. is. I _*think*_, but am unsure that 1 OZ equals 30 grams. If so then you may be overfeeding just a little.

Another rule of thumb is also to never reuse formula. As it sits in the frig til the next feeding it can build up bacteria. Always mix enough for each feeding and throw away any excess. With a single bird I will use a small shot glass....weigh the bird to calculate 10% body weight. For example if the baby is 65 grams I will suck up 6.5cc (ml) of hot water into a syringe. The mix in the powdered formula to the right consistency. Place the glass in a warm pan of water and take the temp. of the mixed formula. By doing this you have no excessive waste of formula to throw away.


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## DyArianna

Srtiels.. good to know it's not crop burn! I must admit though.. when I did research on that prior to finding you guys.. the pictures didn't look at all like yours. They most likely weren't as advanced. I wasn't suggesting to just go ahead and feed the chick because it looks like the crop could hold it. My apologies if it came across that way. I was basing my response on what was said the feeding based on weight should be. I was concerned that the baby would be underfed based on the feeding chart and also someone new to hand feeding that would find the crop getting bigger a bit scary. I know I did.


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## srtiels

DyArianna....sadly some of the info on the internet as to handfeeding is very old and out-dated. I'd be skeptical of any site that says to feed up to 15cc. 10-12 years ago breeders were under the impression that the more you fed the healthier and larger the bird would be when weaning. Sadly these same people started having slow crops and crop stasis and could not understand why. The formula is designed with a specific nutrient density in the mix. When a person feeds 10% of body weight the chick is getting the correct balance of nutrients for proper growth. When a baby is fed in excess of 10% of body weight it is getting excess nutrients. many of these nutrients are the fat soluble vitamins that get stored in the body. As they accumulate they can cause heath issues, and in the extreme organ failure. Plus it was learned that excessive feeding contributed to liver problems and failure later on in life as early as 3-4 yrs of age.

It is _sooo _hard to resist the temptation to feed more because tiels are little beggars and will cry for more food even when full. Understanding that it takes a few minutes for what is fed to finially get into the intestines for nutrient absorption before the baby realizes it has actually been fed ans stops crying helps. It's kinda like tough...you have to feed the required amount and walk away til they settle down.


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## pluto

Dyarianna, I understood what you meant. I thought by posting here you guys would know if it looked like the crop was just too full. But that feeding was not as much as she should be getting. So I was nervous to go further with a feed if you all saw it and said it was too full looking. I guess if she is OK and if the 10% rule is right then she/he should be able to handle a full feed soon enough but I won't push it if she is not wanting more or ready for it.

Srtiels,
Today I made the formula as per instruction on the package but that is probably for a clutch in mind and I have just the one so I was trying to think of the best way to reduce the waste and not refridgerate any unused. Now that I have seen how it should look based on the 1/4 cup batch made now I like your idea of using the syringe to get the right amount each time. Thanks for the tip!

So I guess the red mark isn't just a normal stucture of a neck  It feels like the part that arches back and it is not weeping/oozing and she doesn't seem to mind me even touching that area at all. Actually she/he moves her head around to get me petting her. Hopefully it's not serious but I am glad it isn't crop burn!

Thanks for all the help! I know I am a pain but I don't want to do anything wrong.

Cheers,
Willow
PS- any idea what type of cockatiel this will be? The mom is a white face and dad pied I think. Can you tell this soon?


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## DyArianna

Willow.. ask any questions that you may have. There are many here who can help you. And at the very least, you will educate others.  

Srtiels.. I was just concerned that maybe they were afraid to feed what the baby should be getting based on the info given. 15 ccs?? Wow.. I guess with experience and being able to share information quite a bit has changed for these little guys.  I couldn't imagine trying to shove that into my babies today. 

As far as your baby being white faced or pied. My first question to you is do you see white fuzz or yellow fuzz on the baby around the pin feathers.. ?


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## pluto

Dyarianna, I was afraid to give what the 10% requires. But it's my first day and the crop is such a fragile looking part of the body! I guess I will gain the courage and today the bird seems so different just in the past couple of feedings, so as her/his confidence changes and his ability changes, so will mine!  Still, it is good to have some reassurance.
Also the bird has yellow fuzz. And the older one of the clutch has some patches showing on the cheeks. Maybe in the next couple of days this tiels patches will show.
I am eager to know what kind of tiel we have.

I was just googling about red necks on cockatiels and from what I see out there, the actual bump is part of her body but the redness makes it stand out. It seems to be at the arch in the neck. I wonder if her skin is dry and maybe that could be causing it. She came from a home with wood heat and now we have this too.
I brought it in the bathroom during my nice steamy shower time in hopes the humidity would be good. How do you all give the babies the humidity they need without adding too much moisture that may breed germs/mold??


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## DyArianna

If you have a yellow fuzz baby, it is not a white face. You will have to wait a bit more to see if it is pied or not..  I don't know about the shower.. I hope someone else can comment on that, but I think it's a bit too young for that.


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## Debbie05

I used to feed by the chart also and although I have never had a problem with the babies , I have taken srtiel advice and started feeding 10% of there weight. It's been working great and no problems.


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## pluto

I didn't bring it *in* the shower  just in the bathroom in it's cage to allow it the extra steam!

I fed it the last feeding of the day. Srtiel, totally appreciate the tip on single batch making. I did it and it worked great! 
Also I can't even believe the energy and strength the bird has in just one day. It ate the whole 8ml feeding in no time! Just guzzled like a pro. It's in my room on a heating pad under it's little cage and I can hear it making little chirpy sounds.

It seems like a totally different bird in one day. I hope it keeps up the great progress!
Willow


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## pluto

I suck! I thought I would wake up to find a bird that gained weight! It has changed so much and been so happy and stronger looking in just one day.
When I weighed it yesterday morning with empty crop (just reviewed my notes) it weighed 2.75 oz = 77.9611 g and this morning it weighs 2.25 oz = 63.7864 g! 
Now I also know yesterday we struggled with getting the amount of food in and the early in the day feedings were not good. But now the bird is a pro and things seem much better! 
Otherwise it seems to be in good spirits, and resting well and not stressed anymore. 
I hope it was just the first day home stress, it was its first day away from parents and fully on formula, first day eating from syringe.
So now that the bird is taking its proper amount per feeding and we know what we are doing together should I feed it in the four hour or five hour schedule? I am thinking that maybe I should check the crop at 4 hours and if it is only a little full give it the next feeding? And hopefully when she starts gaining I can slow down to five hours in a few days???
Also I think I will keep it in the room with the fire going to make sure she remains warm. Taking her in our room on a heating pad just might not be warm enough for her! I am going to get a thermometer to put in the cage too just to be sure.
I hope I can do better today. Do any of you experience weight loss on the first day of feeding??


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## srtiels

*Do any of you experience weight loss on the first day of feeding??*
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Alot of that depends on if there was food in the crop when you first weighed the bird....and the type of food. If the baby was pulled from the nest and still had parents food in the crop and the intestines this would be denser (and weigh more) than formula.

Age makes a difference too. When a baby gets to be fledgling age, meaning fully feathered and attempting to fly, it will start to lose weight to make it lighter to lift off.

As to the crop, with a new baby that you are unfamiliar with please allow the crop to *fully empty* between each feeding. It can be empty for 30-60 minutes prior to the nest feeding, if digestion is fast.

Take care with a heating pad. Make sure there is at least 2" of bedding on top of the pad and the baby *does not* have any direct contact with the heating pad. If the crop rests against a heating pad it can get scalded and contribute to crop burn. If the baby is young and bones are still growing and soft it can contribute to leg and foot problems later on.

Here is a link thgat shows the develpment of a growing baby. *Note:* Weights will vary per baby, *but* the development should be the same: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html

And this page may have some helpful info: http://www.talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=18189


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## pluto

That's awesome! Your images and development details at the link are great! 
When we first weighed it it did have some food in the crop and it also had the parents food in it. Yes, I noticed the poop was really firm and actually big. It was something I had never seen before but as I started feeding it then the poops looked more as I imaged them. They have the urine, the urate(SP?) and the coiled or S shaped green coloured feces.
But according to the development chart of yours my birdie is a bit behind. And I noticed that the older bird hatched one day before mine (with the splayed leg) also looked many days older.
The good news is that the feeding is going good and actually now that she/he has the hang of it I find that I really need to be cautious because it just goes crazy for feedings!

I will let the crop to empty and then fill the 10% for now and see how it goes. I will resist the urge to plump it up with extra feedings if it isn't empty. So far though the crop is doing a great job emptying.

One thing I have noticed since last night though is some sort of odor. I am trying to figure it out. The poop doesn't have a smell from what I can tell. And I have smelled the birds breath and mouth and I can't smell it from that also. The bottom of the bird is clean. But when the cage is next to me (and I just cleaned it again this morning) I smell just a little smell of something. But it isn't offensive, it is just different. Can baby birds have a natural odour? I can't pinpoint it but I do worry about the sour crop issue except its crop keeps emptying well.

Anyway, I will keep my fingers crossed it catches up! I am determined not to fail this little sweetie! It already came from a rough start from a nasty environment 

Thanks
Willow


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## srtiels

Smells *can be* an important clue to problems. For example a sour vinergary smell could mean some yeast in the digestive tract. many times supplementing the formula with 1/4 tsp of *plain* yogurt will balance the intestinal flora. Another smell to look out for is a musty earthy smell....this is an indication of intestinal protozoa or parasites (worms) City water can get slightly contaminated with protozoa, especially after rainy weather....do using bottled spring water to mix the formula would be a wise idea.

Watching the urates (white part) of the poop is helpful. The urates should always be white and have a firm creamy consistency. If discolored a yellow ochre or pale green this is an indication of a bacterial problem.


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## DyArianna

Sounds like you are doing an awesome job Willow! Keeping fingers crossed for the little guy to gain weight for you!


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## pluto

Great news! After smelling the birds poop, smelling her feathers, "bottom" area, cage, breath and anything else you can imagine I was determined to figure out what this underlying unidentifiable odour was.... and then I realized that under the table we set up for her, my husband tucked a little garbage can which had an old banana peel and a few papertowels with stuff on it! So all along it was this hidden can and not my precious bird!! :blush: Needless to say, the can is gone and so is the smell yippee!
I even sent hubby on a trip to get plain yogurt from the store and then discovered it! lol

And I weighed her at this feeding and she is gaining a bit today (or at least maintaining her weight!) so I am really hopeful tomorrow morning she will be up in weight and that Rstiels is right on with the theory that the heavier parents food was in her and it added to a false first weigh in.
Also the bird must have been too cool yesterday so now I am making sure her temp stays warm and stable.

Glad you're all here and embarassed to admit it was my garbage and not bird but relieved too!

Ahhhh.... I can just say this is more stressful and more work than when I had my kids!!


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## DyArianna

lol! Glad to hear about the trash can. I haven't been here that long, but I think I've always seen Srtiels to be a great source of advice/information. There are many others too. I really believe this to be one of the best sites in the internet. And if you have been given some incorrect information in the past (as I have) this is actually a great place to get corrected and redirected.


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## pluto

Well this morning I weighed the bird and no change in weight from yesterday. No gain  The poop looks great still, the bird is actively wanting its food and it seems to have more energy and even more strength/stability but it is skinny. And this morning it did not fully digest its food as you can see in the images (I hope images show it because it is hard taking good images).
I debated whether to feed it with a small amount left in its crop but it just had a great poop when I was examining it so it was still digesting. And I worry if it doesn't eat, it will die!
So I watered down the formula to a thinner consistency. I made sure the temp was at least 105 and I put it right back in the box to keep it warm.
I also fed it only 6mls. It went after the food like crazy so it is not rejecting food at all.

I guess next step is the applesauce if it looks like the crop could go sour right??

The red mark on the neck seems to be no worse, maybe better looking. It feels like part of the neck stucture like the underneath of the crook of the neck. And it is smooth, not weeping and no scabs. Perhaps an old injury to the skin or the colouring because of the lack of feathers and fat there?? Anyway it doesn't seem to bother the birdie when I touch it.

I spoke with another much more reputable breeder yesterday (oh if only I knew things before!) and she explained her many issues with the breeder I bought this bird from. The person is a bird collector of unwanted birds, he advertises and collects birds and abuses and mistreats (even keeping overflow in a barn) and then he purges the bunch and gets more again. I went as he did a big purge. A "hoarder" personality with no regard for the birds at all. Not a licenced breeder and not respected among fellow bird lovers in the area at all according to the breeder. 
Apparently that guy has been doing this for many years, using a local online network to get the birds and sell them. The good breeder doubted that the baby would have lived or not been injured anyway with him because he allows his birds to become lame or ill and doesn't treat them. And the worst was that the good breeder had called me because many months back I put in my name for one of their birds and finally they had some bred but I had no idea and it was too late. Anyway we both agreed that regardless, this baby is better off out of there. If it did live with the bad breeder, what would he do with it after if it was not sold?? Overbreed or abuse maybe!! grrr... I didn't realize the "bird industry" had nuts who exploit animals too!!

I am worried I will fail this bird and I am actually wondering if I should hire the other breeder to finish taking care of this little one- if they would (they may refuse and they live about an hour away and I dont want to shock the bird)! 
I need to get it gaining weight though and I need to keep it healthy!

Today it is 21 days old and only weighing 2.25 ounces or 63.8 grams. And that is with a little undigested food in it.
Do I still have hope that I can do this or do you see me failing bigtime?? Please be honest because I am worried...


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## pluto

Here is another image of it at 7am. The other may have been hard to tell size of crop because of the pattern on the towel behind image. It wasn't a lot left but maybe about a fingertip sized sac. Not flat skin.


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## enigma731

I have never raised a baby from this age, so take my advice with a grain of salt. But I have been reading your thread, and it's obvious you love this bird and want the best for him. 

I know this is often challenging with young babies, but is it possible for him to see a vet? I really wonder whether he may be ill as a result of the terrible conditions he came from. I also think it might be a good idea to at least see if the other breeder would be willing to work with you to give you some in-person pointers about how to help this bird. 

Please don't think you are failing. Asking for help when you need it is the hardest and best thing you can do for this baby. It can be a challenge to turn them around from this kind of neglect, but youre giving him every possible chance.


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## pluto

The closest avian vet is one hour away. I wouldn't risk taking him to the local vet because although he shows an interest in avian topics, he is not certified and actually seemed a bit out of it when it came to basics (like what side to feed on, what age they fledge, crop talk). So I would not risk taking her/him there, I would probably see if the vet in the city would look at it. But I can't do that until tomorrow because it is Sunday. And what about stress of travel for the bird?? That is the part I really am concerned about. And I wonder if I travel there and the poop is good and the bird is not lethargic and it is taking food, will he just send me home with the same advice you all are giving?

I need to get a thermometer today to keep a better check on the cage. I held the baby for about an hour just now and nested him in my hands to get it nice and warm and give it some loving. I wonder if babies get depressed if they are all alone and just away from parents and siblings? I can't imagine being stuck in that nesting box all alone with no touch. So I thought maybe some quiet times of holding closely to prevent chilling and allow for relaxation??? Do any of you hold chicks? It really seemed to enjoy it and relaxed a lot. It nestled right in my hands and did some little kissy things while it dozed off. I think about the Harlow's monkey theory and think any chick would do better with love.

It also looked like its crop emptied quicker but I think because I watered the formula a bit. I added extra bedding and turned up the heating pad a little to increase heat for it. I will keep feeling the bottom of its cage to make sure it does not overheat. My instincts are telling me that it was already a runt compared to the other chick so it was possibly already small for its age and also that I have been too conservative with the heat of the formula and its nesting box because I was afraid of burns. So maybe it is spending most energy on trying to keep warm and not gaining because of that.

Tomorrow if things don't change I will call the avian vet in the city and see what his thoughts are.

Do you think the bird is in danger at this weight and how do the pics look to you?
Thanks
Willow
PS- I can't help but totally love the bird! It is so sweet. If it survives we must have a cyber-party to celebrate!


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## srtiels

In the pix the baby looks fine, and you are doing great with it. 

Can you find a scales that weighs in grams. it would be more helpful than one that weighs in Oz., because you can tell better on weight gain. 

In regards to the baby it might also be genetic in regards to it's size. Not all babies are big and alot of it has to do with genetic backgrounds, how the parents were paired, (related, unrelated) etc.

Watering down the formula or adding applesauce is not going to help it. What it will do is deprive it of the nutrient content it needs because growing out those feathers takes protein and energy.


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## pluto

Well, we made it through another day! And boy I am just shocked at how fast a bird changes! Cookie is getting much stronger. She perched well and steady on my finger while we were having some "cuddle" time! It is so crazy hyper when it sees me. It wants to get right up in my face as close as possible but I just keep her nested in my hands to keep the heat up around her/him and it just loves to sit in my hands. It sounds like a cricket chirping and does little kissies. Very cute.

It is so crazy when I feed it too! Holy smokes!! It bobs that head so fast and now even gets the wings moving into it. I hold it as steady as possible but that isn't so easy. Geesh! Tell it doesn't get worse!

I have moved her into a warmer place. I was surprised when I got the thermometer in the cage and saw the temp was not near as warm as I thought it would be. Even with the heating pad, the poor birdie was not getting the heat needed.
Now I have it close to the heat and still running the heating pad. The temp ranges between 80-85. Hopefully this will help it plump up.

The only issue of concern is that even after 5 hours I still see some undigested food in her crop. Not much but enough to know it is there. I hope it is not a sign of sour crop. The poops are still great and I am making sure my formula is at 105-107.
The last thing I want to have to do is flush out the crop (I read about it in the archives here and it would be enough to send me off the deep end!!)

Here are pics before her last feeding today (notice the crop-what do you think?) and then after the feeding. And of course in its little snuggli after...
Oh how I hope the weight is up in the morning and the food is fully digested this time!


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## pluto

I was just googling images to see if I could find what sour crop may look like on a crop and found an image that shows the exact same red bump our bird has on the neck (not related to sour crop). Looks like it's just part of the neck with no feathers yet.
Well, on that note I will sign off and get some sleep... I need it!
Check out the neck image here...http://pfeffarah.deviantart.com/art/Baby-cockatiels-81143559


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## pluto

Well, another bummer morning. The crop looked the same as in those above images. A fingertip of stuff and it stayed the same again on the scale. 63 grams.  Temp of the cage was mid 80's. So its not a heat issue. Maybe I'm not feeding it enough but I fed it 7ml because it was just begging after I was done 6... it's poops are still great and no smells coming from either end. I may try more frequent smaller feeding today?? Is that the next best step to help it gain? I see nothing wrong with it otherwise except what appears to be a very little amount of undigested food.


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## Debbie05

Well the good think is he didn't loose any weight. Good luck with the baby!!!


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## srtiels

*Temp of the cage was mid 80's. So its not a heat issue.*
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Get rid of the cage. What you need to do is find a cardboard box that is 10-12" square with the flaps.

*Preparing the box: *Place 3" of bedding in the bottom. Finely mist or wet *just the inside walls, not the bedding.* Start with the heating pad on *medium* The placement of the heating pad is 1/2 under the box and 1/2 up one side...to form an *L* Close the flaps of the box and let the inside warm up. When warmed when you reach you hand in it will feel ike a sauna. Reduce the heat to *low* Place the baby inside, and close the flaps. This will be the babies housing for the next few weeks.

What you want is a warm moist environment. One of the things that parents do daily is to wet down the chick till it is fully feathered out. This aids in feather growth and lewssens some of the load of the body using energy. And the skin gets moistened to maintain hydration. With a better controlled environment the digestion should be better.

At the moment you do not have sour crop. It looks like the sking is slightly stretched and hanging below the empty to the opening in the body to the digestive tract....therefore not allowing the baby to fully empty.

Lets see where your at after a day of the warm/humid box. You _might_ have to do a crop bra for a week or so if there is still the pouch at the base of the crop.


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## pluto

Thanks! 
I just set the box up as you described. I found a nice clean new box my vaccuum came in. I misted and used a couple of cotton non-woven tea towels for base bedding and layered two rows paper towels on those. heating pad is on and flaps closed and chick is nestled in my hand until the heat is good in box.

quick question... what about light? Doesnt the chick feel depressed and isolated in such a dark place?? Also are the top flaps sufficient or should a towel also go on box after closed? 
Oh and will oxygen be good enough in there or should holes be cut?

Great the you don't think its sour crop! I would much rather deal with a crop bra over the alternative any day!!


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## srtiels

Normally a chick will be in the nestbox which is dark until it is fledged.

If you want any light in the box...poke holes *low* on the sides, because if heat rises and the holes are high heat escapes. But it should be fine in the box.


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## pluto

I checked the box and it's very warm now (90 degrees on the heating pad side) according to the therm. but the poor lonely chick is snuggling next to the thermometer! I will need to put in something else for it to nest against because the temp reading will not be accurate with a chick hugging on it!
Do any of you with only one chick have tips on what would be safe to add for comfort? I could add the little green furry thing I had in the other cage but it has strings. Do any of you add any stuffed animals that have no buttons?? 
It breaks my heart to see the baby snuggle with a plastic thermometer 
srtiels, I want to really thank you for all your help with this! You sure are a pro. I was pondering today just how many tiels lives you have probably saved! I'm sure it's more than you'll know.
Willow


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## DyArianna

I always put a little stuffed animal in with my chicks when I have them in the brooder.. and they just love snuggling that way.


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## tielfan

Two options for using the green furry thing: (1) cut the strings off, or (2) make two small holes in the box, pass the strings through, and tie them on the outside.

Lots of people used stuffed animals for this purpose so if you have something appropriate you can use it.


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## pluto

Srtiels, I was reading another thread here about lack of weight gain and I read a post of yours that mentioned when they are growing pin feathers that they will plateau for a bit because their energy can be spent on this.
Do you feel this could be a factor in my case? And after all the feathers have come in that maybe the gain will be seen?

Today our bird still weighed the same! I fed it around 11:30 last night and then at 7am this morning and the good news is that the crop was totally empty and looked great. Just like a little fold of skin down the middle and no pouch! So that is good because we know it is fully digesting and no sour crop issues or skin sag.

Its poop is still great looking with nice clean white urates. And it is now in a 90 degree nestbox with moisture and a little stuffed baby teddybear for company!

It is so active and so hyper when I take it out. It tries to climb right up to my face and my mouth as though it thinks I will feed it that way haha!! And it sucks the formula down in such a fierce and crazy way! The whole syringe is gone in no time.

But still it weighs only 63 grams. It is 23 days old now. I will take some pictures tonight and post them. Personally I feel it is skinny. It looks very skinny to me. It has grown taller and strong. It can firmly perch around my fingers too but still wobbly.
I am mixing the formula as directed and feeding every 4 hours right now. 

Either it will be a small cockatiel or maybe the growth will be seen after the feathers are finally in??

Thanks!
Willow


----------



## srtiels

It sounds like the little one is doing great. Part of the slower growth is _also_ because it has been handfed from day one. It did not get the benefits of the parents feeding and the flora that they give new hatchlings. Now that you are getting good digestion you might want to thicken the formula just a little to see how it does. And being in the box was a help with a more stable environment.


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## pluto

Actually this bird was fed from the parents until day 18 when the "bird collector" was purging his collection of birds along with the parents and he was going to start the feeding. Because the other two had splayed legs and he wasn't going to even attempt to fix them and this one was looking so much smaller than the one hatched one day ahead of it, I just paid the guy and took the bird because I really did want it to have the best start in life.

I looked over the parents and they were not huge cockatiels. The white-face mom was petite if I recall correctly.

What worries me as I read about birds and weight is that this one will be starting to fly sooner than I want to imagine and it will start foraging soon too which means most start losing or staying the same weight at that point right? So if this is the case I may end up with a cockatiel the size of a budgie!

What is the smallest cockatiel you have had? 

I did experiment last night with thickening the formula a little because I noticed when it pooped the first poop had more urine in it than I thought it should (too much water in the formula perhaps) And maybe that last thicker feeding before bed is what allowed it to fully empty its crop so well.

Trial and error it seems... I just hope it stays nice and healthy because it has me head over heels in love already!


----------



## pluto

Still no gain! This is so upsetting because I've done everything that was suggested.
The formula is thicker now and much messier when feeding. And he's taking it as fast as he can. He's just ferocious when it sees that it's feeding time!! And it bobs it's head so much and so hard that yesterday I noticed it was getting a red area on the side of it's beak/face area. Today I moved the syringe to a different location which is more awkward to feed like but I think if I keep moving it a bit it won't continue to irritate it's mouth. Also I try to hold it's head to prevent excessive bobbing but this birds just crazy! It may be small but it's got power!

The crop was completely empty this morning. It seems to digest the formula much easier and faster when it's thicker. Maybe the excess water was causing that little pouch in the crop before because maybe it's body didn't need more hydration and wasn't digesting as fast??? Either way, I can tell that the thicker textured formula is being accepted by it's body better. And the poops contain much less urine than before.

It's eating a little extra each feeding than the 10%. Is that a good idea if it's crop is emptying on time still? 
It weighs 63g and gets approx 7-7 1/2 ml every 4-4 1/2 hours. I know that's more than what is recommended for the age (24 days old) but I don't know how else to help it gain or maintain.

It gets it at 7,11,3,7,11 

Other than not gaining, it looks great. It's poops are perfect and it's active and vocal and affectionate. It cries for food and wants out when it sees me. Temp in the box teeters between 83-90 and has good humidity.

Oh how I wish it gains well!

Anyone see what I may be doing wrong?
And what's the lightest cockatiel you've all seen?
Thanks!!
Willow


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## srtiels

*What is the smallest cockatiel you have had?*
--------------------------------------------------

The smallest tiel I had was called 'Little Bit' and she weighed 43 grams at weaning at 12 weeks old. She remained tiny, and at 1 year old her top weight was 65 grams.

So....your tiel may just be a small boned bird. 

It sounds like it is doing better on the thicker formula.

I would be feeding the baby *4* times a day. Feeding too much can also result in a baby not gaining (and starting to lose weight) because the bodys energy is being used up digesting rather than growth.


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## DyArianna

Such a tiny little fighter. Every time I see there is an updated post on this thread I am so afraid to open it. And each and every time.. I am so glad I did. You know.. I just found a name on the Internet. I googled derivations for tiny little fighter and I think I might have found the perfect name for him.. although you may have already chosen one. 

What do you think of Finley? I guess it means fair haired warrior. There's also Liam.. which means strong willed fighter.


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## pluto

First I have to say that I was soooo curious about the birds history (parents mutations and weights) that I broke down and called the oerson that sold me the bird. I also wanted to know how the other two birds were doing because the one day older bird was so well developed and large but sadly had a splayed leg that needed fixing and the younger bird (hatched 4 days later) looked like it may have been developing the splayed leg issue too. 


Oh and I found out my little ones mom was white face and the dad was actually not pied but common grey.

srtiels, thanks for the info on your tiny bird because I googled for hours trying to find that answer but always I would get the average charts coming up and the weights were much higher. 
How much would you feed it in the four feedings?? It looks so crazy starving and begs for food as soon as it sees me. I think it would eat until its crop blew!! 
So would you up the amount per serving in the 4 time interval? Or actually keep it at the 10% of the body weight for each feeding.

DyArianna, Finley is a cute name! I would need to consult with my daughter because she randomly chose the name cookie although she has changed that name many times lol... maybe I will explain THIS bird DESERVES a warrior name!!


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## srtiels

I edited and deleted your comments are to the breeder. Regardless of the circumstances it is bad form to talk about someone that can not answer back.

From what you had posted the clutchmate had splayed leg, which is a good indicator that there was not enough bedding in the nestbox to help the chicks legs from slopping sideways on the floor of the box. In addition to this it would be harder for chicks to maintain heat, which can retard growth....and might have contributed to your babies size.

You can try feeding just a little more than 10% per feeding, but if you see any changes in crop emptying time (slowing down) back off to 10%

Do you know now many days old your baby is now?


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## pluto

No problem, I can understand the concern about comments about people who are not here. But boy, I was quite upset upon hearing that the birds were killed! I spoke with the licensed/reputable breeder who is familiar with this person and she suggested reporting. I'm not sure about laws pertaining to birds but I can't see how it could be humane or legal to kill a bird with a splayed leg before even trying treatment  

My bird is 24 days old. 
Willow


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## srtiels

The only thing that would help the birds (a friend did this once to someone similar) is to monitor their trash and if dead birds are found phone animal control to look and investigate. Without seeing dead birds your words are hearsay.

OK....your bird is old enough to start nibbling on millet sprays. You might want hang a piece of millet in the corner of the box where it spends to most time.


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## pluto

I added the millet today after the suggestion, it took a few little seeds in its mouth, rolled them around for a bit and spit them out. But it enjoyed pecking away at the millet. 
Above are images from tonight... it's teeny tiny but such a cutie


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## DyArianna

As far as the breeder goes.. I do know that I have been researching in my state. There are many states who require licensing or some sort of registration with either a state or federal government if selling exotic birds. I'm not sure where you are from .. you might not even be from the US. Hopefully there is some regulation where you are from. At the very least you can do some research and maybe voice your concerns with someone in that sort of venue also. 

He is so adorable. He may be small but he is getting tons of feathers/pins! You guys continue to be in our thoughts and hopefully this little guy .. is just that.


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## pluto

Today I was going to start the feedings for every five hours but when I weighed the birdie it was down a couple of grams. Now it's 61 
It seems that I need to give up hope I will see a gain anytime soon. I had it sitting on me last night and playing with the millet. Actually it would bite off the seeds and roll them around with it's tongue but I think it actually ate a couple. 

Rstiels, can you tell me how much you would feed it each feeding and what times would work best for it?? It weighs 61 gms and is 25 days old. I'm very worried about reducing overall ml's per day because I don't want to see it lose more.

It is still in it's nestbox too. Temp is now being kept between 80-85.

Formula is thicker like yogurt texture.

And can you also tell me what ever happened with your little bird you had? Is it still alive and what can I expect for life expectancy of a tiny bird? Can they live a long and healthy life also?

It's poops are great, it's spirit is up, vocal and full of energy and loves to snuggle.... very affectionate!

Thanks!
Willow


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## DyArianna

Wow.. another little fighter still going! I really admire you as well for also keeping up the fight!


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## srtiels

Ok....your baby is now feathered out and according to age about the time it would normally try to fledge from the box....though they will go baby in. At this age the weight will remain the same and then they will drop down a few grams in weight. this weight loss is to lighten the body to try to fly. About this age he may be doing alot of wing flapping to strength chest muscles for flight.

As to Little Bit she lived to be about 3 years old. The reason why the short life is that her mate Nova escaped and she pined away for him and just starved herself because he was gone.


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## pluto

Dyarianna, I won't give up on this little one! It honestly is the sweetest pet I've seen. It gets all up on me as close as it can cuddle and does the little kissy preeny stuff on my chin... it is just the sweetest baby I can imagine.
It's good with my daughter and hubby too but if it sees me it tries to get to me lol so I've been trying to get the others to hold it while I clean the box out or whatever just so it connects with them too.
It's about the size of a sparrow though and the parrot cage I bought has 3/4 inch spacing I think so I really hope it grows enough so it can't get caught in the bars!

There's so much info online about what to do, how much to feed, when to feed, when to wean etc. but what if the bird isn't typical and doesn't gain each day?? That's when it gets confusing.

I won't give up though. I wish the person who sold it to me would have just given the other two to me also and I would have definately worked with them to get them well! I'm still heartbroken over them 

One thing though I must say is I HATE feeding time! Our little one acts like Godzilla during feedings!! Just a total monster in search of the syringe LOL.

As long as we can keep it above 60gm I will not panic but if it loses more then I will start really worrying.

Willow


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## pluto

Awe, she only lived three years and died of a broken heart  that's sad...

I have noticed the wing flapping beginning. I also notice the crop even when full feels stronger and less pouchy.

So if this was your bird at 25 days, 60gm- what serving size would you give and what times would be best?

Also, should it stay in the box or is it time to move it into a smaller solid bottom cage with a low perch.

Thanks!
Willow


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## DyArianna

I hear ya on how crazy hand feeding is when they get older! This last clutch was the first time I had two of them.. and OH... MY ... GOD! Once they eventually start weaning.. you get all excited that they are growing up.. and also excited you see a light at the end of the tunnel. lol Funny thing is.. no matter how crazy it gets.. you can't wait to do it all over again.


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## srtiels

*So if this was your bird at 25 days, 60gm- what serving size would you give and what times would be best?*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would feed 6cc of formula per feeding....and I'm not sure how many times a day you are feeding but work toward 3 feedings a day. 

Since the baby is feathered, you might want to have her in the small cage several hours during the day. Put newspaper on the grill, and sprinkle some seed on it for it to forage and pick at and a piece of millet clipped to the corner of the cage so that it is hanging. During the night have the baby in the box with the 2 of the flaps open.

Once you see it picking at seed and millet then you can gradually reduce the lunch (by 1cc per feeding day) feeding over several days to eliminate it and start to wean.


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## pluto

So far so good, today it weighed 63 grams again (gained back it's loss) and it has been on four feedings for two days. It's eating the millet now but otherwise seems to just be playing around with other things offered. I've tried corn, toast, seeds, moistened pellets and all bran cereal with no interest show from it yet. I've also set a shallow dish of water in it's cage but no drinking yet.
It's flapping its wings and giving the odd real loud chirp every now and again. It spends the day in the cage (not steady enough to perch, so sits on the bottom) and nights in its box.

We finally picked a name too! Xiang which means "to soar" and also "lucky". Pronounced something like shi-ah-ng.

I can't wait until our little Xiang is fully weaned  it's so strong and nails on it like a dragon!! Tonight it tried so hard to get at the syring that it clenched my finger so tight with its nails I thought I was going to be bleeding lol
I can't imagine being the momma and dad bird with 5+ in a clutch! I'd fly away


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## pluto

Well we have made it to 4 1/2 weeks old and so far so great! Xiang is weighing approx. 63-65 grams daily and is now starting to perch and wing flap and chirp very loudly when it hears my voice! I assumed we had a common grey tiel because I thought that was what the father was. The father was grey with bright yellow face and mom was a nice white faced cockatiel. I assumed that Xiang may be a female only because of the brilliant spots on the wings but then also I realized she looked different than most greys because she has the large fluffy white patch on the back of her head. Her head feathers are still coming in but from what is there now after a long day online researching mutations I am guessing that I have a split grey pied tiel and as for the cinnamon or pearl or pastel etc. I have no idea if there is any of that going on. 

My question to all of you... what type of cockatiel would you say she/he is and also can I tell the gender based on the spots on the wings or will I need to wait for the first molt because of the pied part of her/him??? Also will females chirp loudly when they hear their owners at age 4 weeks or is this a male thing?
Thanks!


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## pluto

Experts?? Anyone... any thoughts on type and gender?
I'm quite eager to hear your opinions!
Male/female/pied/grey??


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## DyArianna

Okay... I am just guessing here. But I guess male.. I want to say split to pied.. but that's quite a large blotch of white behind the head so I'm not sure there. Might be pied. Oh yeah.. and I want to say split to white face. The reason I guess male is because of the lighter markings on the face. The spots would suggest female, but I had one with spots like that and he is a boy. Again.. just my *still learning* guess.


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## pluto

Thanks Dyarianna! The white patch surprised me when it came in. It's markings otherwise seem very symetrical except the white fluffy feather patch on the head. I'm curious though when you mention the light markings on the face, don't the male birds have the brighter markings on the face? I'm kind of hoping for a male because I'm nervous of the egg laying issues and males seem less complicated but either way I'm in love! I just assumed the light markings may mean female. 
So you have a male with the wing spots? That's good to know. Also this bird is very vocal... at only 4 1/2 weeks it's whistling when I talk and it hears me. I also thought that was a male trait.
In pieds are the wing spots reliable to determine sex of bird?
Any other experts here able to offer some assistance understanding more about my baby?
Thanks!
Willow


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## srtiels

Both sexes are vocal at that age. The wing spots look like a female *if* they go all the way to the body. But, if a few are solid with no spots then it is a male. It is hard to tell from your pix.

The baby is a normal grey split to pied.


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## enigma731

pluto said:


> I'm kind of hoping for a male because I'm nervous of the egg laying issues and males seem less complicated but either way I'm in love! I just assumed the light markings may mean female.


I can't help you with sexing, but I just wanted to chime in and say that I was also afraid of having a female, but now I'm so glad I do. Hormones don't have to be a huge issue if you stay on top of the light/dark period, and remove access to things the bird becomes overly attracted to. It also seems like (anecdotally) female 'tiels may be more cuddly, although that's certainly not to say that a male couldn't be affectionate. I've been lurking on your threads, and I wanted to say I think you're doing a great job.


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## pluto

Here is a better attempt at getting those last few feathers in the pic. 
What I see is that the last few shorter feathers closest to the body are solid but the one between the solid and the spotted has one dot on it.

Rstiels, can you take a look (forgive the image because it is a hard shot to capture) and give me your best guess based on what you see.

Enigma, good to hear that the female bird isn't as complicated to raise because I was nervous.
I do know that this little one is as affectionate as can be (it's walking across my keyboard as I type this) and it takes every opportunity possible for a good snuggle! When I go to the cage it just runs right out into my hand... sooooo cute!!!


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## srtiels

It looks like it may be a male. If a female the spots would be more distinct...*but* being split to pied may be the cause of the faint spotting on the feathers closest the body. If it is the pied split that is doing this then it can be either sex....but right now my *'guess'* would be male.

The baby has turned out very nice...you did a great job with him


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## pluto

Thanks for everyones help here! The baby probably wouldn't have even survived if I didn't have all the info from you all! I won't totally breathe easy until he's fully weaned and flying with coordination! He's close to the flying stage and that's just as nerve racking as when he first came home with us  I hear Tiels can be crazy-dumb flyers at first eeek!
I'm hoping we can keep him unclipped and see how that goes. 
This week my goal is getting him on a three feeding a day schedule (he's still crazy over his formula!! Loves the syringe) and get him eating more than millet. He loves water from my finger but doesn't drink any on his own either.

rstiels, thanks for your guess! I'm going to raise him as though he's a boy and if we have to do the gender switch later so be it  I'll let you know if your guess was right on when he's a bit older and we are more sure. I understand what you're saying about the pied possibly altering the spots so we shall see later whether indeed he is a bonafide boy.

Again, I'm so glad you've all been here through this. Raising a baby tiel is NOT easy!

Willow


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## enigma731

pluto said:


> He's close to the flying stage and that's just as nerve racking as when he first came home with us  I hear Tiels can be crazy-dumb flyers at first eeek!


I totally hear you on this. My rescue girl is currently learning to fly. She's four years old, but she was clipped before she was allowed to fledge, so she flies like a maniac. I try to make sure that my curtains are closed, and that she's not in a room with any mirrors when I take her out. Other than that, I think the most important piece of advice I can give is to just try not to freak out yourself when the bird takes off. It's totally anxiety-provoking, but if you start running after the bird or yelling at it to be careful, it's just going to spook more and be more out of control.


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## Eollica

xx nevermind my post i'm outdated abotu this XD


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## tielfan

The "learning to fly" stage will be safer if you restrict flight opportunities to a fairly small room that doesn't have a lot of hazards in it. In a small room, a bird can't build up too much speed before it's forced to turn, so the impact won't be too hard if it crashes into something. Cover up hard surfaces like windows and large mirrors so the bird doesn't try to fly through them.

Thirty-eight babies have learned to fly in my back bedroom, which is about 12x14 feet. There have been lots of crashes and there have probably been some bruises but no serious injuries. With the first clutch I took them out to the living room sometimes, which is much bigger and lets them fly through several other rooms in a straight line. But I quickly figured out that this was dangerous and stopped bringing fully flighted babies out there.


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## pluto

My sweet Xiang is still alive and well.... whew! He is eating seeds now. He loves to forage around the bottom of his cage and eat. Weird thing I have noticed is that he does this right after his feedings. You would think he would be full but it is during that time he seems to have the most interest in eating. He does it other times in the day too but mainly after his feedings.
When I give him his last feeding for the day I can feel some seeds still in a clump in his crop. At first I thought it was a slow crop issue or sour crop because I didn't think he was actually eating the seeds he was foraging in.
So now I wonder if it is OK to still feed him the same amount when I feel the seeds still in there? Can it hurt him if I feed him on top of seeds??
He now weighs 73 grams and I feed him 7-8mls in the morning and 6 at lunch and then 7-8 in the evening. He is now in his larger cage and exploring all the different levels of perches. He has a rope perch, concrete little perch and then a natural perch (that is his favorite) and a wood perch.
He is flying in the cage but so far hasn't attempted to fly outside the cage.
As soon as I open the door though he flips out of there so quickly into my hands. I need to start training him to wait until I say he can come out.

He doesn't drink water yet unless it is when I give him it from my finger after his formula. 

At night I still put him in his box to sleep. And usually he will get at least a couple hours of cuddle time per evening with me! Last night he got a bit more cuddle time and just LOVED it! He really is the most affectionate birdy I have ever seen!!

I hope I am doing things right??? Do you all feed even if there are seeds left in the crop and do you allow for seeds to be available at all times? 

I will post updated pics soon 
Willow


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## srtiels

When you feed seeds in the crop just feed 1-2cc of formula. if the seeds are in the crop consistently at each feeding then start eliminating the feedings.

If he is getting formula he does not need water.

If he is still sleeping in the box if you are still using heat and he is fully feathered he does not need heat anymore. You can start to let him sleep in his cage at night with 3 sides of the cage covered, and a night light on at night.


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## DyArianna

It is really exciting as these little guys grow up!  You have done an amazing job with him. One of my little guys, when he started to learn how to fly, would take off backwards instead of flying forwards. It was the oddest thing.. but soon he figured it out.


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## pluto

Thanks Susanne! I have not used the heating pad since his feathers all came in. I was nervous though to let it sleep all night in it's cage. Maybe I'll try that tonight then.
I read this after I just fed him. I felt a clump of seeds in there again. Around a thumb size amount. I doubt though he's eating anything more than the millet and smaller seeds. I was tired of picking out sunflower seeds from the cockatiel mix so I started feeding the budgie style mix until it's safe for sunflower seeds. I've been giving it pellets and a variety of human food (it hasn't eaten the human stuff yet either).

It never ever has refused formula though. I've read on here where people say their birds refuse to take the formula but so far this guy's never done that. He loves the formula!

And if I stop formula because he's eating seed, what about water or dehydration issues? Do I need to feed water until he starts taking it on his own? And how much water does a bird need?

Thanks! 
He is just shy of six weeks (by two days) so is this too young for total withdrawal of formula? 
Willow


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## srtiels

*Do I need to feed water until he starts taking it on his own? And how much water does a bird need?*
----------------------------------

*Do not* try to feed water with a syringe. It is so easy to aspirate a bird with thin fluids. As to the amount they drink...all they need is a few sips a day.

At 6 weeks old he is still a few weeks from being totally weaned. At this age he should be 3 feeding a day, ready to reduce down the middle feeding to work towards 2 times a day.

What you can do is when it is time to feed him feel the crop first. if there is anything in there just feed 1-2cc if he will take it. At the last feeding of the day you can give more.


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## pluto

Ok great! Thanks.
I didn't mean with the syringe  I use my fingers and give a few sips after each feeding. I wash my hands well before each feeding. He loves the water after each feeding and goes for more from my fingers but never from the bowl.
I'll keep an eye on the crop fullness at each feeding and work towards removing the midday feeding by next week.
At what age do you trust with sunflower seeds? And what age do you offer little spray bottle misting?? Or should I just start putting a very shallow amount of water in it's bath dish? As much as I try to wipe/wash face after feeding, he still gets so crusty on his feathers around his mouth. The feathers feel rock hard :wacko:ick. 
Willow


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## pluto

Xiang is flying! It's just so darn cute! Whenever I put him down and step back from him he will fly and land on my arm! I'm training him to come when I call but often he just can't wait that long and takes off towards me!
Also he has begun rejecting his formula after a few ml so I give what he will take and make sure he's eating other things and not losing too much. I am concerned though about fluid intake. I have not noticed him drinking water yet. His poops are less watery too, more semi solid feeling like they were when the parents were feeding him. 

He also started whistling for me and answering back to by whistles when I'm in another room 

Every night I let him hang out when it's my time to relax and chill. He cuddles for a couple of hours with me and soaks up all the snuggles he can get!

He knows the step up command now too.

Pretty great for a little 6 1/2 week old birdie!

I'm really enjoying him, he's a great cockatiel. He's now eating a variety of seeds, lettuce, but so far hasn't touched his pellets other than to throw them aside! And he loves playing with all his toys and exploring his cage. I can't wait until he gets better at flying so he can explore the house. Last night he was flying in a different room than he's been used to and he slowly ran unto a wall and bumped his noggin'! But he seems fine... whew!

Just had to update you all on the many forms of progress. I'm so proud of Xiang!


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## Debbie05

What I do for my babies is crush some pellets and sprinkle the powder ontop of there fresh foods. I find that way they get used to the taste of them.


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## pluto

Thanks for the idea Debbie! Xiang is starting to really explore different foods. He's totally weaned now and is doing great but still has no interest in the pellets from what I can tell. I will do what you do and see if it works!


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## Beak

pluto said:


> View attachment 11047
> 
> 
> View attachment 11048
> 
> 
> View attachment 11049
> 
> 
> Well this morning I weighed the bird and no change in weight from yesterday. No gain  The poop looks great still, the bird is actively wanting its food and it seems to have more energy and even more strength/stability but it is skinny. And this morning it did not fully digest its food as you can see in the images (I hope images show it because it is hard taking good images).
> I debated whether to feed it with a small amount left in its crop but it just had a great poop when I was examining it so it was still digesting. And I worry if it doesn't eat, it will die!
> So I watered down the formula to a thinner consistency. I made sure the temp was at least 105 and I put it right back in the box to keep it warm.
> I also fed it only 6mls. It went after the food like crazy so it is not rejecting food at all.
> 
> I guess next step is the applesauce if it looks like the crop could go sour right??
> 
> The red mark on the neck seems to be no worse, maybe better looking. It feels like part of the neck stucture like the underneath of the crook of the neck. And it is smooth, not weeping and no scabs. Perhaps an old injury to the skin or the colouring because of the lack of feathers and fat there?? Anyway it doesn't seem to bother the birdie when I touch it.
> 
> I spoke with another much more reputable breeder yesterday (oh if only I knew things before!) and she explained her many issues with the breeder I bought this bird from. The person is a bird collector of unwanted birds, he advertises and collects birds and abuses and mistreats (even keeping overflow in a barn) and then he purges the bunch and gets more again. I went as he did a big purge. A "hoarder" personality with no regard for the birds at all. Not a licenced breeder and not respected among fellow bird lovers in the area at all according to the breeder.
> Apparently that guy has been doing this for many years, using a local online network to get the birds and sell them. The good breeder doubted that the baby would have lived or not been injured anyway with him because he allows his birds to become lame or ill and doesn't treat them. And the worst was that the good breeder had called me because many months back I put in my name for one of their birds and finally they had some bred but I had no idea and it was too late. Anyway we both agreed that regardless, this baby is better off out of there. If it did live with the bad breeder, what would he do with it after if it was not sold?? Overbreed or abuse maybe!! grrr... I didn't realize the "bird industry" had nuts who exploit animals too!!
> 
> I am worried I will fail this bird and I am actually wondering if I should hire the other breeder to finish taking care of this little one- if they would (they may refuse and they live about an hour away and I dont want to shock the bird)!
> I need to get it gaining weight though and I need to keep it healthy!
> 
> Today it is 21 days old and only weighing 2.25 ounces or 63.8 grams. And that is with a little undigested food in it.
> Do I still have hope that I can do this or do you see me failing bigtime?? Please be honest because I am worried...


I’ve been told and I have experienced hand feeding of baby cockatiels for years. I was taught to let the crop empty completely before adding another feeding. The reason for this is that the food in the crop can sour; this obviously is called sour crop. overfeeding causes the food in the crop to spoil and then the bird stopped eating. You’re better to let the bird digest the food then feed it. Be very careful of the temperature. You should not use a microwave to heat because it causes hotspots. I always put a glass container into hot water to bring the temperature up to 105 to 109°.If you burn your bird crop shame on you.
Are use a human electric thermometer and test every batch before I feed it to a chick. Good luck and breeding cockatiels it’s a very rewarding hobby


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## Beak

pluto said:


> Thanks for the idea Debbie! Xiang is starting to really explore different foods. He's totally weaned now and is doing great but still has no interest in the pellets from what I can tell. I will do what you do and see if it works!


It’s very difficult to get a bird to go to pellets. A poll on my diet is not recommended because I know people that have had lots of problems with nourishment because they can’t get everything in a pallet. I don’t care what the advertisement says. The bird needs variety, my cockatiels love broccoli and thought frozen peas and corn, I don’t use the canned stuff because it’s for sodium.A good cock until seed mix it’s also my recommendation. Katie products have been excellent over the years
Enjoy the wonderful bird hobby


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## bettyaustin2

srtiels said:


> DyArianna....sadly some of the info on the internet as to handfeeding is very old and out-dated. I'd be skeptical of any site that says to feed up to 15cc. 10-12 years ago breeders were under the impression that the more you fed the healthier and larger the bird would be when weaning. Sadly these same people started having slow crops and crop stasis and could not understand why. The formula is designed with a specific nutrient density in the mix. When a person feeds 10% of body weight the chick is getting the correct balance of nutrients for proper growth. When a baby is fed in excess of 10% of body weight it is getting excess nutrients. many of these nutrients are the fat soluble vitamins that get stored in the body. As they accumulate they can cause heath issues, and in the extreme organ failure. Plus it was learned that excessive feeding contributed to liver problems and failure later on in life as early as 3-4 yrs of age.
> 
> It is _sooo _hard to resist the temptation to feed more because tiels are little beggars and will cry for more food even when full. Understanding that it takes a few minutes for what is fed to finially get into the intestines for nutrient absorption before the baby realizes it has actually been fed ans stops crying helps. It's kinda like tough...you have to feed the required amount and walk away til they settle down.


I am a sucker for mine and he screams like I am starving him after his crop is full. But I have learnt that if I give in to him his crop will not empty and I am left a nervous wreck waiting and wondering if it will really empty. I have to walk a way! Lol


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## bettyaustin2

After looking at your pictures of your baby I don’t know how old yours is but mine has that red bump area to. He was never burned as I have been extremely cautious of the temp of feeding. Mine has that red bump on his middle neck. It is his neck area. He lays it consistently on a little stuffed animal I have in his brooder. It is just his neck area. He has had it since birth. He is 20 days old today!


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## bettyaustin2

pluto said:


> Hi all! OK so today we had some success considering it was both our bird and my first day of full handfeeding. At first I was not successful but I soon figured out why. I was nervous and didn't get the syringe right into its mouth good enough.
> So the last two feedings rocked because we finally clicked.
> 
> But my next fear of course is overfeeding. While I know the chart says it should have 8ml per feeding, I read there should still be a little food left in the crop during the day right? So not totally empty. And when I feed it I am shocked at how fast and big it's crop gets.
> The last feeding I got 6ml into it and then I stopped. I think maybe he/she would have taken more but I was nervous that its crop looked so big.
> Can you experience people look at these pics and see what you think about the crop size. Should I go bigger and how do I know how big is too big!
> 
> Also above the crop is a red bump that was there when we bought the bird. I think it is the neck/voice box area but I do worry that maybe it could be something else. What do you think??
> 
> View attachment 11039
> 
> 
> View attachment 11040
> 
> 
> View attachment 11041


How old is your bird?


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## Beak

Beak said:


> It’s very difficult to get a bird to go to pellets. A poll on my diet is not recommended because I know people that have had lots of problems with nourishment because they can’t get everything in a pallet. I don’t care what the advertisement says. The bird needs variety, my cockatiels love broccoli and thought frozen peas and corn, I don’t use the canned stuff because it’s for sodium.A good cock until seed mix it’s also my recommendation. Katie products have been excellent over the years
> Enjoy the wonderful bird hobby


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## akshaytees8

Willow.. ask any questions that you may have. There are many here who can help you. And at the very least, you will educate others. 
hellodear.in

tea tv


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