# Picked up 2 new tiels tonight and one is laying eggs.



## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Let me just say that some people really irk me. I saw an add for two tiels that a man was pretty desperate to get rid of. He wanted rid of his girlfriends birds, cage and all and I mistakenly mentioned this to my mother. She is all too eager to shove money in my pocket and tell me to go get the little darlings as long as she gets to love on them and I get to clean after them.  So my husband and I drove over to the man's home to pick up the birds. They are absolutely lovely and look in pretty good shape but there was no cuttle bone, mineral block or much of anything in the cage with them other than a couple perches, food and water. Not only that but the most gorgeous little gray bird is sitting on the cage floor on an egg that she laid last night. It would have been nice if he had told me this before hand. Regardless they will be better off here than there even though I know that he meant well. He was just uneducated and I have to keep reminding myself of that. 
So here are the facts and please step in to set me in the right direction where it's needed. I did set a nest box in the original cage. Tried to keep everything as close to the way he already had things set up but I added a cuttle bone and mineral block, millet, fresh greens (they aren't touching them) and a couple of toys. I put the egg that she laid the previous night in the nest box and showed her but she has pretty well abandoned it as I feared. It's been in the nest box without her for about two hours now and she's showing no signs of wanting to go in there at all. She is about ready to lay another egg by the way she looks. The birds are NOT related. The female is 3 1/2 and the "male" is only 1 1/2 purchased from separate places in separate counties. A friend of the family is willing to come show me how to hand feed if the need arises and he has 30 years experience with pigeons. I can't bring myself to boil the eggs or anything of the like. I have researched breeding for more educational curiosity than anything else and I have the emergency brooder components already. If she does continue to lay and they do seem viable then I will go and purchase the bird formula just in case. I feel as though I am forgetting something and any help/advice is welcomed. 
I am sorry if I ranted a bit.
Here are the best pics that I could get being as the poor dears were already a bit stressed and I was trying to keep my distance.








The gray is the one that is laying








This is the very shy "boy" (?)
Thanks a million!


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

The grey one is female obviously..and the pearl looks like a female as well.. but I'm not sure.

Edit: 
Pearl: A male pearl will lose it's pearling and return to normal colorization after it's first molt. If you look carefully though, adult male pearls can usually be discerned by a mottled or dusty appearance on their backs, especially on the top of the wings. You will sometimes find a male pearl that does not lose the pearling, but this is very rare.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Ah so the other one would fall into the pearl category?  That may not be 100% to tell me that what we have are two females and I will still get all the hand rearing materials other than the formula all in one place by in the morning but it does make me feel a bit better about things. My knowledge is not as complete on anything as I would like to have it before having babies. I'll let her keep the nest box and see what she does with things. If they hatch then we have babies and if not then we don't I suppose. Too bad they don't make birdie birth control.  
Also I emailed the man that we got them from and asked him about her egg laying. Evidently she does this a good bit and "always has" according to him. Though that doesn't tell me much considering she never had the right things to really hatch a clutch.
Thanks!


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes it falls into pearl category. Like I said, I'm not 100% sure it's a female, but my pearl still has her pearls and she's 10 months old now, she's not layed an egg ever yet. 

If your pearl is a male, expect to have fertile eggs (maybe) if it's a female the eggs won't be fertile because they can't be fertile without a male. (sorry I don't know if you know this) But yes, so you're prepared it's a good idea to get all the stuff before hand so you aren't having to rush around.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Thanks for telling me that he/she falls into the pearl category. I am horrible at that and would have no idea. That is something that I haven't researched all that much. To me they all fall into the lovely category and that's that. I do have another pearl that is much more heavily and more obviously pearl but he/she, King Arthur, is only about to be 20 weeks so there's no telling. I was told when I got him/her and his/her clutch mates that he was a he but we shall see in time.
This particular baby who has picked a name (Ricky) has me wondering. They didn't have names when I picked them up. They way "he" picked "his" name was by saying Ricky over and over again. I know that there are female talkers so I'm left scratching my head. I was going to call the vet once they opened to schedule the vet check but I guess that will have to wait until she is done with the eggs either way but I'll still call and get the price quote along with most likely seeing about the DNA testing along with that just in case. Don't worry about stating the "obvious". I understand completely but yes I was aware there has to be a male for the eggs to be fertile.


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## kimmikefids (Aug 2, 2008)

hmmm that is really interesting.....hard to tell as Solace has mentioned males lose their pearls but not always...and females normally don't talk it has happened before....i guess DNA is the only way to now for sure...oh and if any babies pop out !!!! will be interesting to find out which it is!!!


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm seriously considering doing the dna testing on the entire flock just to be 100% sure. I've heard that it is cheaper to do by mail than through the vets office but not so sure how accurate that information was either. So if you know of any of the by mail dna testing sites please do let me know so that I can comparison shop and/or get opinions on them.


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

if the pearl is 1 1/2 you have 2 females 

you need to remove the nest box 

yes males sometimes keep the pearlings but no where near as many as they have when they're young also Males don't have the barring under the tail once they are about 6 months old So if there is barring (lines) under the pearls tail its a female


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## PtsRPpl2 (Sep 22, 2008)

They're both very pretty. Congrats on the new birds. It was really sweet of you to take them in and give them a better home. I'm sure they'll thrive under your care!  Let us know when you find out for sure what they are.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

*banging head on desk* The pearl, aka Ricky, has a pretty ragged tail at the moment so I can't see any tail barring or no. That is unless the edges of the tail feathers look as if they were traced in black marker counts. Ricky is pretty wild so cooperation isn't in the vocabulary and I'm having a hard time getting a good look anyway. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we have another lady among us. Our pretty mama is just not interested in the nest box anyway even though she looks like she is about to lay again. I know that it's a long shot that Ricky is male but I would be very upset with myself if I later found out that the eggs could have been fertile and I didn't give her a chance with them. Especially since she was laying them on the cage floor and sitting on them without the nest box at her previous home. If she ever gets in the nest box and sits on the eggs with no result then I will definitely take away the box and do everything that I can to curb those urges for her. Thanks atvchick95 I appreciate all the help I can get.

PtsRPpl2 Thanks so much. I'm a dolt when it comes to mutations and sexing. Not that I really care if they are boys or girls other than to prevent babies at the moment or perhaps entirely. I do make one mean birdie salad though and keep a clean cage er I mean bedroom.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

Female Pearls can have that effect where just the edges of the tail feathers are dark. If that is a male and it's 1 1/2 yrs. old then you have something very special and very rare. There would be no need to DNA your gray male from your previous post he is no doubt a male. That Whiteface you just posted if 3 1/2 is no doubt a hen. I would think that Pearl is a hen because a male Pearl that keeps it's pearling is (excuse the pun) as rare as hens teeth.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

sweetrsue Thank you for clearing that up for me. I was hoping that the pearl was a female as I wasn't actually intending to breed and just adopted these two. Not that I would object to having a pearl male that kept his pearling. I do like rare things but even with all the reading I have done and the fact that I have everything to hand raise babies I still don't feel that it's something that I should intentionally do. Perhaps sometime in the future I will change my mind but for now I will keep the things I need just in case they manage to outsmart me.


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

here is my male he turned one in July so he's 1 year 3 months old this is his back I took it a few weeks ago (sorry for the blurry pic he was moving on me )











here is a pic of when I first got him when he was 9 months old 










But as you can see when I first got him he was full of pearls ( and I thought i got duped and was given a female due to the fact he was supposed to be Pied and nothing else lol) then my boyfriend brings him to me and I see he's Pearl Pied - and i'm like great we just got suckered and got sold a female but within weeks he proved me wrong and started whistling non stop LOL


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## allen (Aug 25, 2007)

if they do hatch and you decide to hand feed then formula will not be needed till they are like 2 weeks old and after there weaned you can keep the spare formula in the freezer unless of course you have a situation like i had where the father started poking the crops of the chicks then i was hand feeding at 7 and 5 days old there is a sticky that shows you all stuff needed for setting up a brooder and what you will need for hand feeding that me and atvchick95 did


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

atvchick95 He is lovely! Only about one out of a hundred pictures that I take of the birds aren't blurry. They are all so energetic and can't be bothered with posing. I am glad that he indeed did turn out to be a he for you. They can be such little tricksters.

allen If they did hatch I would only hand feed if I had to. I would start handling them and do the fun stuff like cuddling but the feeding I would rather leave to mom and dad if possible. I recall seeing that post and I thought it was great by the way. All the components I already have in the animal first aid cabinet along with everything to hand feed except the formula. None of it has ever been used but I would always rather have what I might need and never use it instead of need it and not have it. My three human children have certainly driven home the point that it's best to always be prepared for anything. If they do hatch or even if they start to look like they are going to then I will go and buy some formula. Should I go ahead and put it in the freezer if I'm hoping not to have to use it?


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

aidan724 said:


> atvchick95 He is lovely! Only about one out of a hundred pictures that I take of the birds aren't blurry. They are all so energetic and can't be bothered with posing. I am glad that he indeed did turn out to be a he for you. They can be such little tricksters.
> 
> allen If they did hatch I would only hand feed if I had to. I would start handling them and do the fun stuff like cuddling but the feeding I would rather leave to mom and dad if possible. I recall seeing that post and I thought it was great by the way. All the components I already have in the animal first aid cabinet along with everything to hand feed except the formula. None of it has ever been used but I would always rather have what I might need and never use it instead of need it and not have it. My three human children have certainly driven home the point that it's best to always be prepared for anything. If they do hatch or even if they start to look like they are going to then I will go and buy some formula. Should I go ahead and put it in the freezer if I'm hoping not to have to use it?



First kudo's to you for having the majority of the things needed with out needing them yet  

I just read a couple weeks ago if you put the food( rather its pellets, seed, formula) in the freezer it will keep it 4 yrs past its "use by date"

I just bout a new big bag of formula and it went straight into my fridge I haven't opened it yet, But i was running low, and not sure how much longer the 3 i'm hand feeding are going to take formula plus not sure if I'll be hand feeding any more But its there if and when I need it.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

It's good to be prepared. You never know when you have to step in and lend a hand. I thought I was going to be able to leave my last batch in with the parents but the ignored one baby and even when they did feed them they weren't keeping them warm enough to digest their food. I had to pull them when the youngest was 4 days old. They were all suffering from crop slowdown and had to be put in a brooder. I just use a critter keeper or a herp habitat (a small plastic container about 11 X 17 with a vented lid) with shavings in it and a heating pad on low under it. It works great.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

atvchick Thanks. It is just my opinion but if you have two of any kind of animal you need to have all the things that babies will need way before you need to. Even with every precaution in place if the urge is strong enough things can/will happen 
I'll have to remember that. I already keep the seed in the freezer. It made sense on that front since if you are saving seed to plant it tends to sprout better and keep longer.

sweetrsue I hate that you had to step in with the last batch but I know it was well worth it. I bet the critter keeper/herp habitat would work great. I just might have to invest in a few of those since the store right up the road carries them in in such varying sizes and the owner always cuts me a deal since I shop there so much. I've always been afraid of shavings even with the gerbils and rats. I was thinking of using the plain white paper towels or are the shavings better. I seem to recall some debate on the use of them.


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## allen (Aug 25, 2007)

i agree about the formula i had some in the freezer for 6 months not thinking there would be an emergency but when my uncle called all in panick i took the chicks home setup a brooder and hand fed them reason is the father poked hole in there crop so i always say you never no


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

The only problem with using paper is that it gets so nasty so fast. Many people don't know this but wood has natural anti bacterial properties. I saw an experiment done where they took a bacteria culture and spread a little on a wooden cutting board and a plastic one. The following day the culture on the plastic cutting board had doubled it's population. The culture on the wooden board was dead. Completely gone! Wood shavings also absorb more moisture than paper so they don't end up standing in poop soup. So much can accumulate in a day I just can't stand to see them walking in it. You have to avoid cedar and anything that is too dusty. Anything too big or too small but it works best when you have multiple babies.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

allen Thank you. Apples and oranges I know but I knew that puppy and kitten formula would keep like that. I've had to hand raise several litters of kittens and puppies over the years. (strays and such) I've heard the formula keeps for a good while just on the shelf so I may have to just go ahead and buy some now (just in case) and stock it in the freezer.

sweetrsue I had heard of the experiment with the wood cutting board and the plastic. I can see where the paper would get really messy really quickly. What kind of shavings do you use? The lady at the pet store always tries to give me pine but I know that isn't supposed to be good for the rodents because of fumes.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

Sometimes I find something called White chips. It's mostly Fir shavings. That's OK. Aspen is good but the last brand I bought was a little chunky and I had to pull pieces out of their bands a couple of times. I have found a type of pine that seems OK. It doesn't have a strong smell and the birds are fine with it.


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## atvchick95 (Sep 17, 2007)

I use Care Fresh bedding with all my nest boxes and brooders

everything i've read said do not use wood shavings of any kind, Mainly because the babies will nibble on it as they get older and get crop impacted, plus 90% of it is scented even if its a natural scent and since they are not to be around any scents at all I just go with Care Fresh bedding


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

At about 5pm she laid her 2nd egg. Unfortunately she did so squarely on top of the nest box and the egg cracked beyond any hope of repair. I must admit that I was a bit disappointed. Not that it means much at this point but the contents of the egg were as they should be and the shell was what I would expect it to be in comparison to a chicken egg and the pictures that I've seen on here. Now hopefully I did the right thing or at least not the completely wrong thing. Seeing as how the eggs contents were leaking out I had to remove the egg. I picked it up (she was watching but not hissing and carrying on) and pretended to put it in the nest box with the other egg. She seemed a bit worn out (don't all we ladies after that) but perked up rather quickly playing around with Ricky. Then I couldn't believe my eyes as they were attempting to get xrated within just a couple hours. Such naughty birds. I went to the cage and started talking to them and that was that. They aren't exhibitionists in front of me yet. Ricky is her pearl companion and has me amused and confused. Ricky should be female but is such a great talker and imitator. You know they always have to keep me guessing.
sweetrsue pine shavings are what I was giving by the breeder when I bought the nest box and baby things. They seem to be medium size pieces and I don't really detect anymore odor from them than I did the box itself. As I recall the box itself is made of pine too. 
atvchick Thanks. I didn't even think of the care fresh. I will have to see if we have it available locally. I am sort of in the middle of nowhere and the breeders in these parts don't seem to use anything but "old school" methods. How often do you have to change out the care fresh? 
This certainly gives me lots to ponder and research. I'm glad that I like that sort of thing.


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## elijahfan (Jul 28, 2008)

i haven't kept on top of the thread but did read your first post, i don't know much about tiles to answer any of your questions? just wondered how its all goging are the eggs fertile ? or was it something else just thought i would ask as i felt it was better to let you get advice but wanted to ask


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

elijahfan I doubt that the 1st egg is fertile and the second was a total loss having been cracked beyond repair during laying. Her cagemate is a pearl and should be a female but has me wondering with the fact that "she" is such a good talker and imitator. With the 1st egg I know that she sat on it and had it nice and warm when we picked them up but since then she hasn't had anything more to do with it. I think she's had too much change and all. There is a part of me that will be relieved if they are duds but then there is that other part that will be/is disappointed. At this point I'm waiting a few more days to see if she's going to lay anymore while trying to discourage her urge and if she doesn't then I'm taking out the egg and nest box.


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## elijahfan (Jul 28, 2008)

i supose it would be a reliefe in a way but then baby tiles are a lovely thought  but i know what hard it would be i the mother didnt feed them, i hope somthing works out, but if the keep gettign xrated might be an idea to split them up thy may just keep breeding


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Splitting them up will be my last resort. I can't imagine they would take that very well as they are really all they have had for company up until now and we have just begun to get them settled. If I have to then I will but to me that would be more of a situation where it was putting the hens health in danger. I'm going to try to put them in winter mode first. They are spending their quarantine in our dinning room so that should be fairly easy with the way that things are set up in there.
Baby tiels are such a temptation and while I do have pretty much everything I must resist my urge. We need time to bond and I'm really thinking that she is just determined to be a mom. What do that call that compulsive egg laying again? I could swear I know a term for it but my brain has gone out the window. Besides that I would really prefer to have an all clear from the vet, make sure she has a nice rest at least until spring and get her a bit better of a setup. I just have to keep reminding myself of that.


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## Danielle (Aug 15, 2008)

For what it's worth, I'd get Ricky tested ASAP via mail or vet, and if he is a he, I'd cut back their leafy greens and shorten their nights to get them out of the breeding mood.

If he was a boy and had those pearls at 1 and a half years, I don't think I could resist breeding if I were you! Males that don't lose their pearling are very highly valued as show birds and breeders. I think there's another member here with a male who still has his pearls after two moults.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Yes indeed I do believe that I won't be able to resist breeding Ricky if he is a he. He has beauty and is such a great talker too. I'm sure that he has flaws but I'm just beginning to think about cracking the show code. I wonder if the standards are similar to showing dogs. I do want to let the hen have a nice rest before trying that regardless. That and I want to make sure that I wouldn't be breeding any bad traits.
I went to the breeding calculator/virtual breeder  and these are the results that i got if I did it right. Assuming Ricky is indeed a male.

Mother:Whiteface
Fatherearl

male offspring:
100% Grey Split To Whiteface {X1: Pearl}

female offspring:
100% Pearl Split To Whiteface

Now I just have to figure out that. My mind is swimming with the genetics.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

I have never seen a book do a good job of explaining genetics. I wonder if I can do it in a single post. I'm going to stick with the most common mutations and keep it simple. Is that possible?
Any way there are different types of mutations. For this I will cover Sex linked and Autosomal recessive. 

Sex linked mutations include: Lutino, Cinnamon and Pearl. Sex linked tells you that this color gene is passed from Fathers to Daughters in this manner. If a Father bird is a sex linked mutation and the Mother is a normal gray all of his female offspring will be that sex linked mutation. So Daughters of a Lutino Father will be Lutino, Daughters of Pearl Fathers will be Pearls.
A sex linked mutation is passed to Sons in this manner. If the Father is a sex linked Mutation and the Mother is a normal gray all of his male offspring will be split for that sex linked mutation. So Sons of Lutino Fathers will be split for Lutino, Sons of Cinnamon Fathers will be split to Cinnamon.
Sons can also pick up the genes for a sex linked mutation from their Mothers. So if a Normal Gray Father breeds with a Lutino Mother the Sons will be split for Lutino. The Daughters will not. Females cannot carry a sex linked gene unseen as a male can.

Autosomal recessive mutations include: Whiteface and Pied
These genes are passed to all the offspring. If a whiteface of any sex is bred to a Normal gray all of the babies will be split for Whiteface but would appear to be Normal Grays. I won't even try to get into breeding splits I think to keep it clear I'll stop here. Is this making any sense?


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Yes you made that a bit clearer. I think it's going to just take me a while to let the more complicated things set in.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Last night she laid yet another egg. She let this one go from a top perch so it was a horrible mess. As she is showing no interest in the nest box at all I think I am just going to remove it. The poor girl hasn't shown a bit of interest in it. Now what to do with the egg that is in the nest box already? Should I rethink things and leave the nest box in just in case with the egg in it or given the fact that that she has shown no interest and the eggs are most likely infertile should I take out the nest box?


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

Since it is almost certain both are hens and as you say she has shown no interest in the box I wouldn't worry about the egg. Dispose of it as you will. Sometimes I keep them and add them to my easter die batch. It's very cute to have a miniature basket with tiny eggs.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

That does sound cute. My girls however are with me (they are 5 & 2) and insist on us giving the egg a proper burial. Maybe if they were a bit older I could get away with the mini Easter basket. Maybe without the nest box she will at least have them on the floor of the cage and not make such a mess.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

Yes! It should help. Along with longer nights and fewer fresh greens she should be out of egg laying mode soon.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

The fewer fresh greens I can't do. What is less than none? They are offered but looked at with pure suspicion. They don't touch them at all. Longer nights I have been trying and I think that it's working. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she's figuring out that it isn't time for eggs anymore.


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

Good Luck! I hope it works.


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## aidan724 (Mar 8, 2008)

Well here it is the almost the 9th and she hasn't lain anymore eggs or looking like she's going to so I'm thinking that it has worked.  Thanks everybody!


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## sweetrsue (Jul 8, 2008)

You Welcome! Anytime.


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