# Genetics of things other than color...



## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

So, the color genetic is always a hot topic, but I would like to ask for those of you breeding, how do you select your pairs to improve other areas? Color shows up in one or two generations. We know how it passes but what about structure?

For example, I have heard that if you want to increase size, you should breed cinnamon into your lines. Myth or fact or possibility? What has been your experience?

How immediate is the improvement of the characteristic you are working on? For example: Say I want to breed a bigger crest, so if I put a bird with a huge crest with a bird that has a poor crest, how much improvement am I likely to get in the first generation? In the second generation? and so on...

Overall size is another trait I am interested in, do you see obvious length improvement in the first generation pairing or does it take multiple generations?

How about crossed wings? Bald spots? Hinge tail? What is your process of breeding to improve structure, how quickly do you see results? Do you do any line breeding to strengthen a trait?

Thanks for your input!


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## JonathanH (Sep 27, 2011)

Very Interesting questions Dream. I was wondering the same thing the other day. I read somewhere in the posts/threads here that if you want to increase the "whiteness" in the whitefaced tiels you should breed them with "Pied" mutations. I am too interested in the Crest size, length, structure etc. 

Srtiels probably is a good/experienced person to get a hold of in that regard. Moreover, I would think (common sense) that if you want a particular "trait" in your tiels you should breed one with that shows that trait visually? Maybe size, crest, length etc.

Once again I am a total newbie who spends alot of time reading about stuff over the net. lol.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

See, I love this stuff. I may not know the answers but I really enjoy learning about it. My one cinnamon girl was a good sized girl compared to her sibling that I had at the time. But this time round, I have a normal grey who is the monster compared to a pearl. Both mom and dad appear to be the same size. I have had really nice crests on my babies so far with possibly the exception of the youngest one I have. She is my first pearl. Her crest is still in pins but appears not as full as the others. Both mom and dad have beautiful crests and nice round huge eyes (which also my babies have). I too would be interested in what others say.


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

You got me wondering about that cinnamon theory. I have 2 new babies and one is definately cinnamon. After reading your thread I went and looked at my 2 new babies.

Both are pearled babies but one is grey with white spots and the other is cinnamon with yellow spots. The cinnamon is 4 days younger and I can't believe it, he/she is bigger. Body size anyway but tail feathers still shorter but that's just feathers.

Where did you read about this cinnamon making larger birds? The mother is the cinnamon and she's slightly bigger than the father (pied/pearl), but I thought that was because she was the female.

Here's another thing, the father's crest is huge. Even in comparisson to other adults. The babies are still growing theirs so I won't know if that trait was carried over until maybe their first molt.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

A fairly well known Cockatiel Judge and breeder told me about the cinnamon. He said that originally, the cinnamon mutation was larger and was used to breed back into the normal lines to get them to be bigger. Since that was the first I had ever heard of it, I took a look at my current birds and sure enough, the cinnamon seem to be larger birds here. 

As for the crests - I am waiting to see. If you look at my signature, you can see Rook and Mila both have HUGE crests. They are half brother and sister - same daddy different mom. But, they also share a common ancester (4 generations back) with Spike and Xavier who also have HUGE crests. So I am very interested to see if the crest will carry through and if it will show in a first generation pairing or if I will need to work those lines together more than once to cement the crest size.


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

I'll let you know how the crests turn out. Hopefully this thread stays open in 8 months or so. It'll answer your first generation queston anyway.

Hey that last bird of yours in the picture "Jedi" looks great. Is that what they call a pastel face. Maybe it's just my monitor.

The same father (pied, pearl split to whiteface...as I was told), is now wooing my other tiel which is a female whiteface. If they do hook up I hope to get whiteface babies. I do question his genetics though cause one of his babies turned out pearl, cinnamon. From what little I know about genetics, that means he must have some cinnamon in him for this to happen. Is it possible to have pied, pearl split to whiteface and cinnamon?

Oh, this genetics stuff is giving me a headache.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Yes, Jedi is a pastel face. I am still trying to figure out really how old he is. His former owner said he was 4 but his band is strange and almost looks like he was a 04 model. 

And, yes it is possible to have a male split to cinnamon and whiteface.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Dream, I read somewhere that cinnamons are bigger, have bigger bones I believe. So yes they would be good for that. Pieds are the big ones for crests, say you have a lutino with a bald spot, the best way to prevent it in the next generation is to breed it to a pied. This will strengthen the crest. Just as pearl will weaken it. Not too sure about the other stuff, it'll be interesting to see.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Question.. so are Pearls generally the tiny ones as opposed to Cinnamons? I was just noticing how petite my little Pearl is compared to my others. Speaking of cinnamons, I got to see my two older girls that we rehomed. The cinnamon girl was HUGE looking! Most definitely bigger than mom or dad. It wasn't that long ago, but wow.. what a difference!


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## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

Don't know if this will help, but I found this article by a very famous cockatiel breeder. 

http://www.bluequaker.com/Art-010.htm


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

DyArianna - I would be interested to know if there is a correlation to smaller size in pearls as well.

I would be very interested in hearing from Susanne's (srtiels) experience. If she would provide any input regarding ANY relationship between size and any color/mutation.

I really respect her for the insights on genetics and breeding. Since she has produced way more tiels personally over the years than most of us, and that she was able to personally observe and compare her breeding results with a large subject base - that coupled with her extensive research of color mutations and her reputation among many of the cockatiel breeders I have met. I do hope she will have time and patience to offer some opinion on this and the many other breeding genetic questions I have asked both here and in other posts.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Incase anyone is wondering why I am SOOOO talkative tonight - its because I punctured my foot and have been stuck on the couch for the whole day. I promise this is my last post for the night.

That article by Linda Greeson has been my "bible" to start with. The nagging issue I run into is how to gauge the possible or potential outcome of two birds that I have painted black in my head when I have been told that there is some correlation to certain color/mutation and structure. This is most especially true when the pair is a complete out crossing, or even having no immediate (within 4 generations) common ancestor. 

We know from study that dominant, ressesive and sex-linked color/ mutation genes manifest visually only by select formulaic pairing, we can accurately predict how specific mutations are combined to produce visually expressed combinations and even how they can be used to identify the sex of a bird in certain pairs, or how a visual color mutation paired to split traits can or must be combined to produce the visual so there IS some identifiable indicator to structure and color mutation display with regards to sex BUT - what about structural traits like large eyes? crest size, fullness and shape? Overall length? Size and substance? Crossed wings? Baldness? 

Do any of these structural traits experience any influence by specific color mutations acting as either a promoter or demoter to alter how structural traits are inherited? Other than breeding Like to Like having a higher instance of reduced size and health or longevity - how else are structural traits influenced by color mutation? Are there any definable parameters? Is like to like ALWAYS going to produce offspring that suffer some structural trait reduction or diminished physical condition? In my experience, like to like pairs can produce structurally improved offspring - at least the appear to have improved structure. Yes, it is far less likely to happen but it does happen. 

Can any of these structural traits be more rapidly altered (within 1st or 2nd generation) and either worsened or improved by using specific colors or mutations? Does the visual cinnamon typically improve size in all color mutations? Does it show an obvious difference in 1st or 2nd generation? or must we go to farther generations to display significant change?

Does the use of specific visual color mutations actually have any bearing on the inheritance of the structural traits?

Other than the direct correlation of the potential increase in lutino baldness when breeding visual lutino to visual lutino, I don't know of any other "proven" physical trait being linked directly to a specific color mutation. I understand there are other contributing factors to lutino baldness but it is an accepted fact that this color pairing significantly increases the possible appearance of the thin crest or bald crest trait and the frequent suggestion of using pied to reduce the possibility of this imperfection should indicate that there is a correlation between pied and fullness in the development of the crest - so does that only work for lutino paired to pied or does that carry over to ALL color mutations paired to pied?

All of these questions relate to outcrossing or birds that have very little if any ancestor relationship. And, all these questions get turned inside out and upside down if you include line or inbreeding - they open a whole other can of worms. So - I am currently keeping all my questions based on complete outcross pairings.

These are the nagging things in my brain at midnight... sigh.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

lol Umm.. are you drinking coffee??  Sorry to hear about your foot! Ouch! The brain just seems to explode when you have time to sit and do nothing else.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

lol- no coffee, tea, soda, chocolate - no caffine or stimulants of any kind and I have been wide awake all night. This is what happens when I am stuck with sitting at home, alone and unable to do anything. The silly foot got infected and so I was supposed to stay off it. I punctured it with an old nail on the floor stepped on it barefoot. So besides the continuous throbbing all night, I have been running a fever and sweating. As entertainment, I started working thru the mutations worksheets in my genetics workbook which led me to all the other million questions. Thank goodness I am actually working today. I get to be a forklift operator as today's assignment so it will be a sit down job.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Ummm.. when was the last time you had a Tetanus shot??? Old nails are notorious for bad infections in the body. If you haven't, I'd be getting YOUR butt to a doctor ASAP.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Not to worry (but thank you)  tetanus is all current and up to date - thank goodness. I did go to the doc this morning anyway. She gave me a couple days of antibiotics to fight the local infection. And then she restricted me from walking unless absolutely necessary for two more days. I am NEVER going to get the main aviary insulation installation completed before winter. 


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I just do not have the energy for doing any lengthy postings. Alot of you questions have been answered in past postings. Quite possibly you can do a search of the site with questions you want info on.

Just some random comments....Some traits like length (body and tail) are recessive and will not show up until the 2nd generation. As to tail lengths it takes 4 years for full length. Large heads are a major contributor to DIS egg because of the larger head there is not as much clearance for the chick to rurn in the egg.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

You will never hear me complain if your replies are short! You may not answer in lengthy detail but you always offer so much through your short and concise responses that I look forward to ANY and ALL replies you care to offer! Now, if I could just organize my questions to be so precise...

Thank you!!


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## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

Dreamcatchers said:


> That article by Linda Greeson has been my "bible" to start with. The nagging issue I run into is how to gauge the possible or potential outcome of two birds that I have painted black in my head when I have been told that there is some correlation to certain color/mutation and structure. This is most especially true when the pair is a complete out crossing, or even having no immediate (within 4 generations) common ancestor.


Keep in mind that LG has some very large birds, I mean they are huge compared to the size of pet store quality birds. With that in mind she breeds for conformation, something a lot of breeders do not do when they breed like to like or breed at all. They do not have the genetic gene pool to work with that she, or other big time breeders do. She has a few lines going so they are not inbred, corn-fed birds but she takes time with her pairing. I think she can afford to not look at color and mutation while breeding, but still breeds responsibly, trying to improve the genetics of cockatiels and not make it worse. 

Unfortunately, we breeders with only a few pairs cannot afford to paint our birds black, we can still breed for conformation and try to improve our lines as best we can.


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