# Buddy's Update



## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I just came back from vacation and left Buddy and Cookie with my mother. They were spoiled rotten, but Buddy is not feeling better. (for those who don't know, Buddy was diagnosed with AGY, then Spirochete, with possible PDD). There are still full seeds in his droppings. He is still active and only puffs up sometimes in his cage. However, my mother noticed that he's eating A LOT, and his crop looks big. I can't tell if it's big because he's eating a lot, or if it's swollen. If it is swollen, is this a sign of PDD? Also, he keeps shaking his head constantly, for the whole day. It looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Aa-lne6io. Buddy also sneezes quite a lot during the day.

I will talk to the vet tomorrow, but just wanted to get a second opinion. Also, Cookie so far has shown no signs of illness. I want to separate them, but I'm afraid it will cause a lot of stress and will be worse for both of them. They have been together for almost 4 months in the same cage, and I believe that she has already been exposed to the disease during this time. Would it do any good to separate them now?

Thanks


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Unfortunately I believe that head ticks are a symptom of PDD infiltrating the nervous system. However, since you're also seeing him sneeze, I would rule out possible respiratory illness before concluding that this is actually a tic and not a reaction to nasal irritation. If the vet can't find anything else to treat, I would look into a trial of Celebrex for him. I'm sorry he's not doing as well as you'd hoped.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

He might be eating a lot, because his illnesses affect his digestive system and he is not able to get any nutrition from what he eats. Indeed, a check to rule out anything else should be done and hopefully fast. It is also possible that because he is not able to get food in his body, he is weakened so there might be secondary infections, such as that respiratory problem. So a respiratory infection might not mean that there is no PDD. 

I believe a check for AGY should be done, again. I remember that the amp B you had used was not Megabac S and I dont remember if it was the injectable one used orally, which makes it very ineffective. Either way, your vet will be looking at a lot of stuff, probably. Please keep updating here, I think about Buddy a lot.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok...my plan is this: treat him with Megabac S, and if that doesn't work, then Celebrex. I will also ask the vet about the sneezing. 
Weird thing: Buddy is strong. He flies around tirelessly. He also seemed to have gained 7 grams this last week. I thought the scale might be broken or something, so I checked his keelbone, and it indeed looks meatier. I'm hoping that because he is strong, he will be able to fight this off, whatever he has.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Poor Buddy. I hope the vet can give you some answers. Sending good thoughts to you and Buddy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, sunnysmom. 
I spoke to the vet. She doesn't think the head shake is related to PDD because Buddy is sneezing and there is a clear liquid coming out. She said that clear liquid means irritation, and not infection, so it must be something in his environment that is irritating him. Cookie is also doing the head shake, although not nearly as much as Buddy, and that gives her another indication that this is something environmentally related. 

She thinks we should skip the Megabac, and go straight to an anti-inflammatory. We will use Meloxecam instead of Celebrex, because Celebrex is known to have cardiac side effects in humans, and is not used on dogs and cats. She thinks the Meloxecam is safer. So we'll see how it goes.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Well, I guess that's good news, right? Irritation is better than infection? Did she give you any suggestions as to what might be the cause? Do you have an air purifier? Maybe that would help?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Celebrex is thought to be more effective than Metacam in the case of PDD. I would discuss this with your vet. But I suppose if it's only a trial, maybe she wanted to start out with the weaker drug. Just something to consider for a discussion in the future. I wish you ane Buddy luck as always.


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## Fortunate (Oct 31, 2011)

Poor Buddy! Sorry you going through all this but at least he is now getting better! 
Hugs coming your way!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Sending good thoughts your way. (((hugs)))


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Thinking of you and Buddy!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for all the support, everyone. Yes, irritation is certainly better than infection! Well, she said that dust causes irritation, and so does air conditioners and dry air. She told me to turn on the shower and let him breathe steam. 

Yes, its a trial, and I will discuss with her trying celebrex if the meloxecam doesn't work. But she has not had success with either drug in the case of pdd.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, so Buddy has been on Metacam for 3 days now. The vet said it takes weeks to see improvement, but I've noticed that Buddy is again sleeping in the cage during the day, and is only active in the morning and evening. Before he was on the medication, he was active and didn't sleep at all during the day, except for his normal snooze in the afternoon. Could it be that the medication is making him drowsy?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Metacam should not be sedating, no. It's an NSAID, like Advil for us. Nothing in it should make him feel drugged.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

How about spirochete and agy? I know she wanted to skip megabac s, but did she check if there is any more left or reproduced again?

Did you talk about using Celebrex instead of Metacam? I also read the best results were through C and still, it needed to be used as early as possible to be effective.

I hope things get better.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

She did another gram stain to check for agy and it came back negative. But sometimes gram stains give false negatives. I'm not sure if I should try Megabac or Celebrex next...what do you guys think? 

It's not good to know that Metacam doesn't sedate them. That could mean that he's getting worse. But he only started getting lethargic again when he started taking Metacam. 

Anyway, Buddy is not going to be on Metacam anymore because on the bottle it says to stop if the bird has black droppings, and since yesterday Buddy has had a few black droppings. I stopped giving him the medicine yesterday, and he is still lethargic and having black poops. Maybe the drug is still in his system? He was being all active and happy before he started the Metacam, and now he's back to sleeping in the cage during the day. I started to hope that he was getting better.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Still thinking of you and Buddy. I'm sorry to hear that there has been no easy solution for Buddy!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, sunnyandchickie. Yes, mystery illnesses are very hard


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I would say call the vet and inform her of the newest symptoms as obviously something isn't working.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes, I've already called the vet, just waiting for her reply.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Is he eating? Black droppings are either from not eating or from internal bleeding. My Sunny had black droppings after one dose of prednisolone. We stopped the med and they went back to normal within about 8 hours. Please keep us updated! Thinking of you.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

omg, yes! He eats about 5 times a day. He is eating so much that his crop sticks out. I've never seen him eat this much. Last week the vet said that this could be a sign that he is improving. So maybe the black droppings are blood. I didn't give him the med either yesterday or today, but he still had a few black ones today. I will keep you updated, thank you for caring about Buddy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

The vet called me back. She said that it's good that I stopped the Metacam, and it's probable that his body didn't agree with the medicine. She wants me to wait until his stools clear up, then give her a call and we'll figure out what to do next.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's possible that since he's already got a lot of GI inflammation going on, the meds were just too harsh on his system. I hope his droppings clear up overnight and that she's able to find a better alternative for him.

And I hope that you are doing okay too. I know this must be so terribly stressful. Buddy and Cookie are very lucky to have a birdie parent like you looking out for them.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Keeping buddy in my thoughts. I hope she figures out what to do next quickly for you!


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Sending good thoughts to you and Buddy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you so much for all the support, everyone. It's great to be part of this wonderful community and get all the help that I'm receiving. Yes, it is very stressful for me. The hardest part is that I'm a new bird owner (had Cookie for 7 months and Buddy for 4), and I already started my birdie parenthood fighting a mystery disease, and sometimes I feel that if I had more experience, I would be more able to make the right choices for Buddy. (sometimes I question myself if I'm doing the right thing for him). And it breaks my heart to see him suffer. I really want him to survive and have a good life!

I'm glad to say that Buddy is being very energetic today! When i came home and opened the cage, he immediately got out, went to his playground, started foraging for pellets, and is not lethargic at all! The black stool cleared up, too. It looks like the Metacam is no longer in his system. I think it was the medication that caused those things. I also gave him his first dose of "Booster" from Harrison's last night, so maybe that caused him to improve too, although I doubt that only 1 dose can have such an effect. He still has seeds in his droppings though, but he eats a lot and doesn't seem to be losing weight anymore.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm glad he's having a good day. If the Metacam upset his stomach then he may have been acting lethargic because it was uncomfortable for him. I know it's easy to second guess yourself, but I think you are making the best decisions you can in these circumstances. The problem with avian medicine is that there is so much guesswork involved with it because we just don't know that much yet. I've had birds for eighteen years and I think I would be doing exactly what you are in your situation.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, it's relieving to know that an experienced bird owner such as yourself would make the same decisions that I am making now. Yes, I noticed at the vet that avian medicine is not that advanced, and there is indeed a lot of guesswork. Now I'm contemplating whether I should go straight to Celebrex, or try Megabac.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That's a tough one. Remind me whether Buddy's had blood work done? I think I might base this decision on whether or not there is currently an elevated white count suggestive of infection.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes, he's had blood work to test for poisoning and to see if there were problems with any of his organs. Both exams came out fine. If he does a full blood count and the number of white blood cells turn up high, what does this mean? 
I know it means that he has an infection, but it won't say whether it's still AGY or PDD or something else. The vet said that it wouldn't eliminate any of the guesswork, so that's why I'm hesitating doing a full blood count on him. Maybe I'm missing something, but how would it help him?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, it is somewhat guesswork because we don't actually know what causes PDD. But, the most likely case is that it's caused by a virus, and viruses typically are not associated with the same high white counts that other types of infection are. So to me, a high white count would be more suggestive of a bacterial or fungal infection. You might ask your vet this.


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

Hoping Buddy gets better! Sending good vibes your way.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ohh that makes sense. I'll talk to my vet about it. If it is as you say, and if he shows up with a high white blood cell count, it will be relieving to know that it's not PDD.

Thanks for the good vibes, redQueen


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, it's not a total guarantee since PDD can make them prone to other infections. But, I think it would suggest that there is at the very least some kind of infection that would need to be treated with a med other than Celebrex.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

How is Buddy doing? Any progress?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes! Well, both good and bad. 
Buddy was doing so well that the vet said we shouldn't do anything for him right now, and I was supposed to bring him in for a check up in 3 months. He really seemed to be getting better and his droppings were clearing up, had only 1 or 2 seeds. He didn't lose any more weight, was eating well and was energetic, and I really thought he was going to be cured.

However, last night I came home and was about to cover him up when I noticed something weird: the cage stays near a window with curtains, and my curtain right above the cage seemed to be splashed with some orange fluid with bits of seeds in it. The window was also splashed. I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THIS IS!!! It could only have come from the birds. I thought maybe Buddy could have vomited? But the splash on the curtain was above the cage and on the window, and I don't see how he could have regurgitated so far....Mystery...
Then this morning Buddy's overnight droppings were 100% normal, but they were a lot less than usual! BUT, during the day he relapsed, had diarrhea, his droppings became 100% seeds....He was all puffed up sleeping until about 2pm, then the diarrhea stopped and he became active again. There are still lots of seeds in the droppings....So tonight I have him his booster and put him to sleep, and I just checked his droppings, and they were back to being almost all cleared up.
I really don't know what's going on with Buddy!! This is terrible!! And I still don't know what the splash on the window is. So here it is, Buddy's update. Tomorrow I will give him some thyme tea. I am so worried about him


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I am so sorry that this mystery illness continues to plague Buddy, I wish that there was an easy answer for you two!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The splash on the window does sound like vomit. When birds vomit, they shake their heads violently, so it's entirely possible that it could have splashed that far (gross, I know). Because the pattern with his symptoms fluctuate so rapidly, I would take a really, really close look at everything in his environment and routines. Also, have any changes to his diet been made? I'm wondering if he could have some kind of a food sensitivity.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ohhh than I guess he did vomit. I didn't know that birds shook their heads when they vomited. It's weird because there is no orange liquid in the cage, it's all outside. But that would explain his relapse. Nothing has changed in his environment or routine. I am introducing new foods, but I let him eat as much seeds as he wants. The newest food I introduced was brown rice and he seems to like it. He also had a few bites of my banana a few days ago. I've also been putting ACV in his water and giving him Harrison's booster a few times a week, but other than that, there's nothing new. 

Yes, the pattern with his symptoms does fluctuate rapidly, and I'm actually surprised because he hasn't had a relapse in WEEKS! And today he is doing well again, his droppings are almost cleared up, he's eating, being energetic, etc...Do you think it could still be PDD? 

I don't know what to do about Buddy...I really want to separate Cookie from him but I'm afraid that he'll get worse if I do that. I'm also afraid that the stress of separation could make Cookie sick... I'm also reluctant to keep trying new medicines on him, because he didn't do well at all with his last one, Metacam...


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Yes it does sound like vomit. I have had quite some experience with vomiting birds (budgies and cockatiels) and they vomit ends up in the weirdest places. It actually makes it easier for me to realize one of them puked if it happens when I am not around, because they are messy birds and it is easy to miss it with regular birdy mess if it drops in the cage. I kept wiping the walls when they were sick.

I think about Buddy boy a lot. Maybe you can try consulting with another vet, providing everything that was done, results, the progress etc. Have you considered contacting Dr. Perry? Holistic vets tend to look at a very wide range of factors and plan their approach based on every single information they have about the bird, his habits, environment, previous treatment etc.

I hope it is finally known whatever is making him sick and he can get treatment or anything that helps.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think it _could_ still be PDD, but I think there's also still a decent chance that it isn't. From what I've read, the disease course is just so variable that it's almost impossible to say that it's not. If Buddy were my bird, I would do the bloodwork, and I'd probably also look for another vet to consult with. I think about him a lot too, and I hope you figure this out soon.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I haven't contacted Dr. Perry, but I've been looking at his online videos to see if there are any cases similar to Buddy's.

Ugh...the problem is that we are on a super tight budget and we have already spent over $600 dollars on Buddy, without being able to. We have a lot going on right now, and spending this much on Buddy was a big stretch for us. If it were only up to me, I would do anything I could for Buddy and put it all on the credit card, but my husband absolutely refuses to do this, because we'll be in trouble later. Because no one knows what Buddy has for sure, vets just want to keep running tests on him endlessly, and we simply cannot afford it. Buddy has only done a few tests so far, and the total cost was over $600 like I already mentioned. I feel so depressed right now because of this situation, and to make matters worse, Cookie has been very disinterested in her toys lately and is not as active. I don't know if she's just bored, but I don't want to have 2 sick birdies right now with a mystery illness and not being able to do anything about it. I feel so bad  I don't know what to do. It breaks my heart to look at Buddy.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Have you looked into Care Credit? It might be helpful to you in this situation. http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32918 

I don't think it should be TOO terribly expensive to get a CBC and chem panel done. I want to say I paid around $80 for both tests, and they can potentially give you a lot of info. But I of course understand that these are very difficult circumstances and you have already gone above and beyond for him. I know you will continue making the right decisions for him, whatever that may be. Buddy is very lucky to have you.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, Enigma, I will look into Care Credit. The problem is that every time I have to do a test on Buddy, the vet charges for a consultation also. But I will look into it and see if we can afford it. My husband wants to euthanize Buddy, and I'm so sad about this situation because at this point I don't know what's best for Buddy. He's clearly not feeling well as he's back to sitting in the cage puffed up all day.

Please tell me, would it be of any use to separate Cookie from him? Would it be better for them, or worse? I just checked Cookie's droppings again and they are normal. But she's been living in the same cage with him for months now, and was probably exposed to whatever Buddy has the first time they were introduced. But as Buddy gets worse, I am afraid that her chances of getting whatever he has will increase. Should I still separate them? They are bonded.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

That is a tricky issue. How is their relationship affecting Buddy? I am not sure about cockatiels but my sick budgies have always help from their best buddies, so if it is not a very contagious thing, i put the sick one with his/her best friend in a separate cage and the friend never makes the sick one tired or irritated. 

It is ridiculous the vet is getting consultation fee added to test fee every time. Pff! It is like going to a new vet for an overall examination! Maybe you could use that to go to a much better one? A second opinion would not hurt. 

I do not know if euthanizing without knowing the problem is good. What if it is something treatable or managable with a few adjustments once you learn what is wrong from a vet who is not trying to rob you?

I hope the credit thing works. I love how you care for Buddy and I love how he tries his best. I am praying for you all.


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

Just wanted to add about vet fees. It IS ridiculous that they charge a consultation fee every time they need to do a test. What you can do, if you need to run more tests collect samples yourself (poop, blood from nail clipping, etc.) and send them to a lab independently of the vet. I know the place that we send blood from DNA sexing, GeneHealth, also does all kinds of other test for avian diseases. The tests are all $20 each and I'm sure you could do several tests per sample too. I think it's worth taking a look at the avian/vet labs in your area or where you can mail samples to see if they will do this. I'm sure a vet charges more than $20 per test + consultation fee, doing it yourself could save you a lot of money. Then you can bring the results to your vet to discuss, all of them together. And discuss the results on the forum.
Sorry but I haven't had the chance to read every post on the thread, so I don't know if this is actually going to be helpful, but I saw that you're having money issues paying for the vet bills ($600 is a hefty sum!) and thought I would share this idea. 

Hoping for the best for Buddy, please don't give up on him yet, he may still pull through.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Unfortunately you can't get a reliable CBC from a home test kit because the slides have to be prepared immediately after the sample is taken to prevent the blood cells from clotting and ruining the count. 

As far as separating them, that's a tough call. If they were my birds, I probably wouldn't. If he has PDD, it is extremely contagious and Cookie is absolutely already exposed. In fact, it's possible she's a silent carrier who gave it to him in the first place. (That's all hypothetical, though. I'm not saying I think that DID happen, just that it's one possibility.) If he doesn't have PDD, then the fact that she is asymptomatic suggests it's not contagious. Either way, I'm not sure separating them at this point would accomplish much, unless having her around is causing him stress.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I just wanted to say I'm sorry Buddy isn't feeling better. Hugs. And a friend of mine recently used Credit Care for her dog's sugery and was very happy with it. So I think it's defintinely worth looking into.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

birdsoo said:


> That is a tricky issue. How is their relationship affecting Buddy?
> 
> It is ridiculous the vet is getting consultation fee added to test fee every time. Pff! It is like going to a new vet for an overall examination!
> 
> ...


Hi Birdsoo,

Well, Buddy's relationship with Cookie is overall good, but Cookie is an instigator and is always trying to take things away from Buddy, push him away from HIS food bowl, she likes to push him off of his sleeping perch at night trying to steal it, and they are just like 2 toddlers together. She is very pushy. But Cookie is also very sweet to him, preens him, and when he's not feeling good she stays by his side on the perch. Whenever I try to take Cookie away alone, Buddy calls her like crazy. He doesn't tolerate being separated from her, he loves her! That's why I'm hesitating so much in separating them. I would like to know from people who have more experience if it is okay to separate a bonded pair in these circumstances, or if it is better to leave them together. 

No, I will not let anyone euthanize Buddy. Thanks, you are sweet, even though I'm not feeling like I'm a good mommy to him right now.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

RedQueen said:


> Just wanted to add about vet fees. It IS ridiculous that they charge a consultation fee every time they need to do a test. What you can do, if you need to run more tests collect samples yourself (poop, blood from nail clipping, etc.) and send them to a lab independently of the vet. I know the place that we send blood from DNA sexing, GeneHealth, also does all kinds of other test for avian diseases. The tests are all $20 each and I'm sure you could do several tests per sample too. I think it's worth taking a look at the avian/vet labs in your area or where you can mail samples to see if they will do this. I'm sure a vet charges more than $20 per test + consultation fee, doing it yourself could save you a lot of money. Then you can bring the results to your vet to discuss, all of them together. And discuss the results on the forum.
> Sorry but I haven't had the chance to read every post on the thread, so I don't know if this is actually going to be helpful, but I saw that you're having money issues paying for the vet bills ($600 is a hefty sum!) and thought I would share this idea.
> 
> Hoping for the best for Buddy, please don't give up on him yet, he may still pull through.



Wow, thank you SO much for this useful information. I had no idea that there were separate avian labs out there and that individuals could send in blood/feces samples. I will definitely look it up, this would be a great alternative, and if the prices are cheap like you mentioned, we could certainly continue with Buddy's treatment. 

Yes, the vet is crazy. I think most of them are like this here in MA. One time I went there for Buddy to get his second dose of antibiotics, and they charged me for the medicine PLUS a consultation! And I was only with them for about 15 minutes - all they did besides giving him the medicine was weigh him and answer some questions. I thought it was ridiculous. The only reason I decided to stay with this vet is because she has 25+ years of experience and she's part of the Association of Avian Veterinarians.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

enigma731 said:


> Unfortunately you can't get a reliable CBC from a home test kit because the slides have to be prepared immediately after the sample is taken to prevent the blood cells from clotting and ruining the count.
> 
> As far as separating them, that's a tough call. If they were my birds, I probably wouldn't. If he has PDD, it is extremely contagious and Cookie is absolutely already exposed. In fact, it's possible she's a silent carrier who gave it to him in the first place. (That's all hypothetical, though. I'm not saying I think that DID happen, just that it's one possibility.) If he doesn't have PDD, then the fact that she is asymptomatic suggests it's not contagious. Either way, I'm not sure separating them at this point would accomplish much, unless having her around is causing him stress.



Yeah, I guess you're right. Cookie is definitely exposed at this point, and separation would cause them BOTH a lot of stress. It's interesting that you mentioned that PDD is very contagious. My vet said that they are not sure if it is contagious, but when a bird has PDD, oftentimes the mated pair does not get it, indicating that it might not be contagious. But she also said that not a lot is known about PDD, and that no one knows for sure.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

sunnysmom said:


> I just wanted to say I'm sorry Buddy isn't feeling better. Hugs. And a friend of mine recently used Credit Care for her dog's sugery and was very happy with it. So I think it's defintinely worth looking into.


Thank you, sunnysmom. I am looking into care credit and so far I like it.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

CookieTiel said:


> My vet said that they are not sure if it is contagious, but when a bird has PDD, oftentimes the mated pair does not get it, indicating that it might not be contagious. But she also said that not a lot is known about PDD, and that no one knows for sure.


Well, okay. We don't know for sure. But there are lots and lots of stories of it going through flocks of multiple birds in the same home, or pet store, or breeding aviary. So it seems very likely that it is transmissable, although some birds that are exposed do not get it, which probably does mean that some have a type of immunity. Either way, if Buddy has PDD, then Cookie has certainly been exposed. Either she already has it and will manifest symptoms later, or she is immune. I think whatever is going to happen with her has already been determined, if this is actually PDD.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Will they be happy if you put them in separate side by side cages, with supervised play time together?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

enigma731 said:


> Well, okay. We don't know for sure. But there are lots and lots of stories of it going through flocks of multiple birds in the same home, or pet store, or breeding aviary. So it seems very likely that it is transmissable, although some birds that are exposed do not get it, which probably does mean that some have a type of immunity. Either way, if Buddy has PDD, then Cookie has certainly been exposed. Either she already has it and will manifest symptoms later, or she is immune. I think whatever is going to happen with her has already been determined, if this is actually PDD.


Really? I did not know that in reality it was SO contagious. I am so scared now. I didn't separate them when Buddy first got sick, because I thought Buddy was already carrying this disease for some time (people say that PDD incubation period can be months) and that Cookie had already been exposed when they first met. Does this matter? But now I feel that maybe I should have separated them anyway.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I wouldn't second guess it. Like I said before, for all you know Cookie could be a silent carrier. Or it might not be PDD at all. Take a deep breath and just face this one day at a time. What happened already happened, and chances are you will never know how. Beating yourself up does nothing but eat up energy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

You're right, there's no point. let's just hope that Cookie won't get it.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yesterday I called the pet shop that I bought Buddy from, and told the owner everything that's happening, and asked him if he's had problems like this, or if anyone called complaining about the same symptoms. He said that he's never dealt with a bird showing those symptoms, and that no one called him. I believe he's telling the truth because he offered me a new bird in exchange for Buddy. (poor Buddy, I would never exchange him). But I think if he were lying he would just say that all his birds are healthy and he wouldn't have offered me a new one. If he's telling the truth, it could be that whatever Buddy has is not contagious. Maybe it's not a disease at all, but just a malfunction of his digestive tract? BTW, I found a new vet and I will call him/her today. I'm still convincing my husband to use CareCredit but I think it will work.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

It very well could be that Buddy just has a funky digestive tract or that all this was caused by the stress of moving. Some birds have a weaker immune system then others.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Here's the dilemma. I got recommended to an excellent vet, but their next available appointment is on Friday the 14th. Should I wait, or should I schedule an appointment with an unknown vet sooner?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

How does Buddy seem lately? I would probably make the appointment just so you have it. If he can't wait, then you can always cancel and see another vet.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I agree with enigma!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I mean, he's not at his best right now, and he's not as active as I've seen him a few weeks ago. He's still perching, but he's puffed up most of the time. But he's also not at his worse. His droppings seem okay and he's eating normally....He's like, in the middle, that's why I'm having a hard time deciding. But I think I'll keep the appointment, and if he gets worse, I'll try to take him to another one as an emergency.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

That sounds like a plan  In the meantime, you can offer probiotics to support his digestive system, maybe? It would help keep it balanced, I hope.

Or maybe some herbal teas to boost his immune system?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

What herbal teas can I give him?


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Oh I would have to look them up but i know for sure echinacea boosts immune system. Aloe vera gel does, too. Let me go through the herbal remedies list and I will get back to you


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok I will look it up too, thank you. I am giving him Harrison's 'booster' a few times per week, and that's supposed to help his immune system. I also made some thyme tea a week ago, and I still have a lot left. Is it ok to give him old tea, will it be as effective, or should I make a new one? I have kept it in the fridge.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I think Buddy is getting worse...Got home today and noticed that his droppings are gray, full of seeds, and the urine is pinkish. Blood? What does this mean?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That sounds like he may have liver and/or kidney failure, possibly from an infection. If that continues, I would definitely try to get him to a vet sooner rather than later. Can you offer him some warm, soft food that may be easier to digest than seed?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Oh no!!! My poor baby 
I think I want to take him to a vet sooner. The only soft foods that eats is bread and rice, but he still prefers seeds over them. Should I offer him some bread? He ate kale today too.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I would offer him both bread and rice. He needs to get at least some nutrients and it sounds like he may be unable to digest the seeds. Can you post a pic of the new droppings? It might give us more ideas.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ok... I will cook come sweet potatoes too, he seemed interested in them last time. I posted something a few minutes ago but I think it disappeared. So, if Buddy has an infection, could it still be PDD?

And if I take him to an emergency room instead of a regular vet visit, will they perform the same tests on him, and at the same costs? Or will they just do emergency care and tell me to schedule a vet visit?

I will post pics soon


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

he's devouring the bread now....not that interested in the rice...his droppings are going back to a greenish tint. I'm having trouble transferring the pics to my computer, but will post them when I succeed.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

PDD weakens the bird's immune system, so yes, he could still have it and an opportunistic infection. I can't answer your question about the emergency vet because unfortunately they're all different. I would call around and ask.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Poor Buddy. If he likes eating the bread, maybe try making him some birdie bread that way he'll get more nutrients. I put sweet potatoe in my birdie bread too.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Will he eat soaked or sprouted seed? That's easier to digest than dry seed. We have more info at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=9019 Some birds are put off by the wetness at first, though.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Oh no....Buddy just threw up again today. He is not doing well at all. Today he woke up with a super swollen crop. He only ate a little bit of bread and some whole wheat flakes of cereal. Didn't want seeds or anything. Then he vomited everything he ate this morning. He's still perching, but not doing so well. And Cookie was EATING his vomit!!!!! I don't know what to do anymore!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't think Buddy will live for a long time, he's not doing good.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear that. We're all thinking of you and him. Is there a vet you can get him to this afternoon?


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Maybe you should call that vet people recommended and say it is an emergency and you cannot postpone any more or your bird will die way before the appointment day. If they still do not care, then they are not good to wait around for anyway. I hope you can find a proper vet for Buddy in time


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Oh no. I'm so sorry. I agree with enigma - can u get him to the vet? Sending you and buddy good thought.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, everyone
The place already closed for the day. They closed at 1pm today, and Buddy regurgitated at 2pm. Buddy's crop is very swollen, it completely sticks out. What could this mean? I googled it but it said sour crop, but I thought sour crop was a baby disease.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Here are pictures of his crop:
http://s1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/Carla819/Buddy1/


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I believe crop swelling in an adult means that the digestive system has either stopped moving, or is moving very slowly. I'm really not sure what to recommend, aside from getting him to a vet.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Would what is done for a baby tiel with gi issues help with an adult? Thining of you and Buddy and hoping for the best!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

SunnyandChickie said:


> Would what is done for a baby tiel with gi issues help with an adult? Thining of you and Buddy and hoping for the best!


I hesitate to suggest this, because I just don't know. With PDD, the entire digestive system is inflamed and slow-moving due to neurological damage. So I don't know whether emptying the crop of a bird with PDD would be helpful, or if it might simply worsen inflammation. I would also caution against the use of home remedies in a bird this sick, because there is always the risk of shock. Of course, if an emergency vet is not an option, desperate measures may eventually have to be considered if he continues to go downhill. I just really, really am not sure what to suggest in a case like this which is so chronic, and in which so many things have already been tried.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I understand. I didn't try any home remedies on Buddy today. I've decided to separate Cookie from him. I don't want her eating his vomit when I am not home to monitor them, and I don't want her to be near him when he dies. I'm going to get a little cage, put Buddy in it, disinfect the old cage, and leave Cookie there. They will still both be in the living room so they can still see each other, but they won't be close, so Cookie won't be near him in case he develops other infections. All his symptoms are making me believe that it's PDD, but I really don't know. 

The vet that I wanted to take him to is also close tomorrow, as are other vet clinics, but if he's still alive on Monday, I will call the new vet and explain that it's an emergency, and if they can't see him, I'll have to take him to another one. But it seems like nothing can be done for him at this stage. He went downhill all of a sudden and so fast. He didn't eat anything for the whole day after he vomited, when just yesterday he was having his usual 5 meals per day.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

True! I was hoping and grasping at straws....


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The swollen crop makes me think his digestive system has reached some kind of critical mass where it is shutting down, either due to PDD or an infection of some sort (or both). I am not sure what would be done for him at this point, but I also think the fact that he was still eating well yesterday is reason to keep going with him at least until you can get him to the vet again. Of course, only you can really judge his quality of life, so if you were to decide that it's time to help end his suffering, we would all support you.

For now, can you modify his cage to be a hospital environment? Pad the bottom, take out or lower the perches, and give him some supplemental heat (heat stickies: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32919 and http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32920). That should help him conserve energy until you can get him into the vet. 

I probably wouldn't push him to eat with his crop so swollen, but if he seems weak, you may be able to offer him a few drops of diluted pedialyte or honey straight into his beak. I'm going to see if our experienced breeders think it's a good idea for you to try to empty his crop yourself. I have no experience with the procedure, which is why I'm hesitant to tell you to try it.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

keep him hydrated and warm. pedialyte will be your best bet at the moment, just keep him hydrated as he will be weak.


are there any good breeders in your area you can contact and see if they know anything in a pinch? maybe one of them might be able to refer you to a vet that might still be open?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

enigma731 said:


> The swollen crop makes me think his digestive system has reached some kind of critical mass where it is shutting down, either due to PDD or an infection of some sort (or both). I am not sure what would be done for him at this point, but I also think the fact that he was still eating well yesterday is reason to keep going with him at least until you can get him to the vet again. Of course, only you can really judge his quality of life, so if you were to decide that it's time to help end his suffering, we would all support you.
> 
> For now, can you modify his cage to be a hospital environment? Pad the bottom, take out or lower the perches, and give him some supplemental heat (heat stickies: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32919 and http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32920). That should help him conserve energy until you can get him into the vet.
> 
> I probably wouldn't push him to eat with his crop so swollen, but if he seems weak, you may be able to offer him a few drops of diluted pedialyte or honey straight into his beak. I'm going to see if our experienced breeders think it's a good idea for you to try to empty his crop yourself. I have no experience with the procedure, which is why I'm hesitant to tell you to try it.


Ok, thank you so much for your help. Buddy is miserable, but I can't just let him die, I want to help him keep going until I can get him to a vet on Monday. But I'm thinking, if his condition is this critical, will the vet be able to do anything for him?

As for the swollen crop, this has been going on for a while but not to such an extent. I assumed that his crop was swollen because he was eating so much! He would stay eating for a long time, 5-6 times a day, and that's what made him gain back his weight, but I assumed that it was normal for his crop to be like this. I did mention it to the vet, and she didn't say anything. 

I will try to make his cage a hospital cage, but he likes to perch at the highest perch. Should I lower the perches anyway?

Yeah, I'm not sure about the emptying the crop thing. Is it painful?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

DallyTsuka said:


> keep him hydrated and warm. pedialyte will be your best bet at the moment, just keep him hydrated as he will be weak.
> 
> 
> are there any good breeders in your area you can contact and see if they know anything in a pinch? maybe one of them might be able to refer you to a vet that might still be open?



I don't know ANY breeders in my area. I'm a new bird owner, and originally I wanted to buy my birds from breeders, but when I contacted them NONE of them answered me back. So I don't know any


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yes, I would lower the perches anyway. His instinct will be to go to the highest point in the cage because in the wild that's safest, but he really doesn't need to be expending extra energy right now. 

It is normal for the crop to be stuffed at times when they are eating a lot, but his looks pretty extreme, and it should have emptied overnight. I don't know about emptying it. I imagine the procedure would be unpleasant, but might help him feel better in the long run if his crop is not emptying on its own. I am discussing it with the other mods now. 

As far as what could be done at the vet's -- I really don't know. If this is PDD, then there probably isn't much to be done. But, if it were an infection, then he might have a chance to recover with lots of supportive care and strong antibiotics or antifungals. 

There's something else I feel I need to bring up with you, and I apologize because I know it can't be easy to read: If he does not survive the weekend or if you choose to help end his suffering, you really must consider having a necropsy done. Unfortunately PDD can only be diagnosed definitively after death, and if he does have it, then there will be serious considerations both for Cookie and for any future birds you may want to bring into your home. I know this is upsetting and I hope you know the last thing I want to do is cause you more stress. But I also know you want to do your best for Cookie, so I felt I had to mention it.  Continuing to think of you all.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ok... I will lower the perches anyway. 
Thanks for bringing that up, I will do a necropsy on him if he dies. If it is PDD, I understand that I probably will NEVER ever be able to bring a new bird into my house, but what are the considerations for Cookie?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I wouldn't say never. There are cleaning and containment procedures that can be done -- cross that bridge when you come to it. As far as Cookie is concerned, you'd want to monitor her health very carefully. You might also consider eventually having her tested for Bornavirus to see if she could be a carrier. It's not a definitive test, but it could give you some idea. I'm so sorry this has been your experience as a new bird owner. You are clearly meant to be a bird person, and you are doing such a good job under impossible circumstances.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I am so worried about Cookie right now, and I notice every little change that happens to her. I want to test her for Bornavirus. I'm gonna feel so terrible if Cookie gets this too. She is such a healthy girl, and we bought Buddy because she was lonely and we wanted her to have a companion, and I now I feel terrible for exposing her to this. But I didn't know, and this has been a terrible misfortune. She's our little princess, and I would be completely devastated if this happens to her. But I am hoping that this is not PDD. According to the pet shop owner where I got them from, none of his birds are sick, and no one called to complain, so I am holding on to the hope that this is not PDD. He also said that a vet goes there every 2 weeks to check on the birds, and didn't find anything abnormal. Thank you for the comforting words.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

some info for you from one of our experts who is away from the forum at the moment:




> Tell the person that the head shaking is because the whistling is hurting the birds ears.
> 
> If the crop feels soft and fluid...Run, don't wait to the vet. if this fluid accumulates too much more the bird can self aspirate. The body is regurgitating fliuds from the body into the crop, dehydration and infection set in and death results from kidney failure.
> 
> this bird needs to see a vet, to empty the crop, the bird given Sub-Q fluids for hydration and started on pipercillin (which is injectable) and baytril ASAP. The vet can do cultures, but it is a couple days wait so these are the recommended antibiotics. The crop emptying and sub-Q fluids are a PRIORITY.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, that's all the more reason to get the necropsy if you can't get Buddy better, right? If he doesn't have it, it'll put your mind at ease. I really don't mean to sound morbid talking like this, and I still have hope that he could turn around. But I also think it helps to have a plan in case things do take a turn for the worse. 

I really would take it one day at a time with Cookie. If she seems healthy, then I'd trust that until you have reason to think otherwise. PDD is a mystery. Some birds seem to be extremely susceptible and others don't ever get it after being exposed. I know it's difficult to deal with this kind of unknown, but all you can do right now is enjoy each day you have with them. That's all any of us can really do, you know?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

CookieTiel said:


> Thanks for bringing that up, I will do a necropsy on him if he dies.


Please PM me if you would like to discuss the necropsy procedure. I had to do this for my most recently deceased bird, Krissi, and I think it would have provided some comfort for me if I had known what to expect. 

Hugs to you and best of luck to Buddy's survival and recovery. :flowers:


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

more info for you



> the vomiting is from the fluid building up in the crop!. he is trying to get it out so that he does NOT aspirate. The black droppings are and seed in the droppings are partially due to almost no gut flora and the body dehydration. The pink urine is from bleeding from the kidneys. This bird NEEDS Sub=q fluids and that crop emptied ASAP


dont count on PDD just yet, there are many many other potential causes for this illness as well.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

DallyTsuka,
I'm confused, what whistling is causing him to shake his head?
And I just felt his crop: it feels very thin and extremely soft, like it's full of liquids inside. 
I'll see if I can take him anywhere tonight.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

from way before in the posts you posted a video. i forwarded all the relevant information from this post to her. she responded to everything. thats not too important.

the other info is more important, sub-Q fluids, emptying the crop, and getting this bird antibiotics right away


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Here is a list of avian veterinarians in Massachusetts. http://www.aav.org/search/results.php?filter=state&q=MA&Submit=Search

Here's a site listing two 24-hour emergency centers in MA that handle birds. They say to call first to confirm that a bird vet is there. 

I'll keep looking and will post again if I find anything else.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Do you know whether Buddy has ever been given Amikacin? There is some thought that this might be pseudomonas, which responds to Amikacin and not much of anything else.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Here's another list of bird vets: http://www.avianweb.com/recommendedvets.htm#Massachusetts

One of them is at Angell Animal Hospital, which one of the previous links listed as a 24-hour emergency clinic.

P.S. Here's the emergency contact info for Angell http://www.mspca.org/vet-services/if-your-pet-is.html If they don't have a bird vet available right now, maybe they can at least tell you someone else who could help.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I just called this emergency place near where I live, and they don't have an avian vet on duty, but they said that they can treat any animals.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Can you call back and ask specifically whether they can do a crop flush and give subcue fluids? That would be a great start.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

they can for sure give sub-Q fluids, all vets can and they can show you how to do it. if they can do a crop flush, they can show you how too


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Oh my God, please please, finger crossed for Buddy boy!! 

I am hoping he will make it with all this help and his will to survive. He has come this far!

Yes they should be able to give him fluids with injections. I am not sleeping tonight. I am looking forward to hearing about emergency care. Hopefully they will be able to take the fluids out and give him what he needs and stabilize him.

Hang in there Buddy and his great mummy Cookietiel!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ok...so I called Angell, and they also don't have an avian vet on duty tonight, but they recommended me to another place who has an exotic animals vet...The person was not sure they could do a crop flush, but they would treat him "as they see fit" and they could definitely provide fluids for him. they can also run tests and prescribe medications. Should I trust them?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think that's probably your best bet right now. Be proactive and ask for the things recommended here. If you aren't comfortable with the treatment, tell them no. Remember that you are Buddy's best advocate, and it's their job to help you help him.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

its his best bet, go for it. my avian vet is also an exotics vet. its the best you got right now. it might at least tie him over until you can see the avian


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I'll be thinking of you guys tonight! I have everything crossed for Buddy. I'll be watching this thread all night.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

I agree. Just in case, print the info and take with you to make sure you ask everything possible. (I am sure you will be a hawk, watching everything they do, anyway) 

I hope you can find someone to make a crop flush. It must be putting so much pressure on him. Poor boy. 

Buddy is so lucky to have you.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yes, it's always a good idea to print/right down questions in situations like this. Then you'll know you covered everything you wanted to, even if you're stressed or in a panic. I'm sending you good thoughts also.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I just called them again to ask about this exotic animal vet, and they said that he is only available by phone, he's not physically present in the building. This is horrible.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think I would still take him. Even a regular vet consulting with the exotic vet by phone is probably better than nothing. How does he seem right now?


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

How about the other hospital that said they treat any animal? Would they consult with their avian vet at least?? If it will be done over the phone, maybe the other place with an avian on phone would be better?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I think it's time to take him somewhere..go with your gut. 

Good luck!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I've decided to take him to the place where they have an exotics vet on the phone. It's the closest to an avian vet, and it's cheaper too. But I will have to take him very early in the morning tomorrow. It's pouring outside, the place is 45 minutes away from where I live, and I don't drive well at night, especially when it's raining. It's dangerous out there. So I will wake up early and take him. Tomorrow is Sunday, so hopefully they'll put him on antibiotics, and then I can follow up with an avian vet during the week. Buddy is sleeping right now. He tried to eat a little before sleeping, but then lost interest. Cookie kept calling him to eat and play, but he completely ignored.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

By the way, that video that I posted with a bird shaking his head, I got that from youtube to show exactly what Buddy was doing. That wasn't Buddy.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Good luck, and please keep us updated. We're all with you and him in spirit tonight.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, and thank you so much everyone for supporting us. I will keep you posted. I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight. Please pray for us.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

How is Buddy this morning?


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

how is he? is he ok?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Hey everyone. I just came back from the emergency with Buddy. Things did not go well at all. I feel terrible about how everything went.

First of all, when I arrived at the emergency room they informed me that a general evaluation would cost $100. Then, for anything additional, (tests, fluids, and medicines) the MINIMUM would range between $350-$650. This is OUTRAGEOUS!! They are not even specialized in avian medicine, and are charging this much for something that would only provide Buddy emergency, basic care! I said okay, maybe I'll be lucky and they will run tests and diagnose him with something and it will be cheaper than $350. 

Then they told me to wait in the waiting room. A technician came and asked me about Buddy's medical history and what was wrong with him. I told him everything, and well, he was completely CLUELESS about everything I told him. Clearly, he knew nothing about birds. I was deeply uncomfortable with this, but decided to wait anyway. Well, we waited for 1 HOUR AND 10 MINUTES!!! And no one called us!! It was obvious that they didn't understand enough about birds and didn't think of Buddy as a priority. I know this because they put all the dogs and cats ahead of Buddy, even though we got there a long time before them. People who were arriving with healthy-looking, playful dogs got admitted in less than 15 minutes, and Buddy was there for 1 hour and 10 minutes without being called. Seriously, only 1 of the dogs couldn't walk, but the rest were all cheerful and jumping around, while my Buddy was sleeping in his carrier all puffed up, without eating or drinking. 

I was completely outraged by this, and decided that I could already tell enough about the quality of the care they would give Buddy, and decided to come home. I am going beyond my means to care for Buddy, so if I need to spend $300 on him, I rather do it at a specialized avian vet who will understand Buddy's necessities. You see, I don't have the money to take Buddy BOTH to an emergency and then to follow up with a vet, and judging by how they treated Buddy, I preferred to wait until tomorrow morning and take him to a real avian vet as an emergency.

He is doing better than yesterday, so that is comforting. He didn't vomit anymore, although his overnight droppings were little and had mucous on them. He is eating and drinking today, and I am giving him pedialyte and soft foods. I've bought a little cage to put Cookie in (I will make Buddy's cage a hospital cage for him), and hopefully tomorrow morning a vet can take him in.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Also, his crop is not swollen anymore.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Oh no, I'm sorry that the emergency vet was less than helpful and no at all understanding. I am glad that Buddy seems to be doing better today.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm glad he is doing better. Hopefully the next vet you try will exceed your expectations and do something right for Buddy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

yes, I'm trying to find a vet that opens early in the morning tomorrow and can see him asap.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

You did the right thing, both by taking Buddy in and then by leaving after they demonstrated that they weren't treating you well and weren't likely to treat him well either. The money that you would have wasted if you stayed there will now be available for other things that you need, hopefully including getting effective treatment for Buddy. 

I don't know whether pseudomonas is involved in this at all, but just in case it's an issue there are things you can do with water management to help reduce your birds' exposure to the bacteria, mostly just simply running the tap for a little while before you fill the water bowl:

http://www.cockatiels.org/ownersandenthusiasts/avian-bacterial-disease.htm
http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/pseudomonas.htm


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

yes, tielfan, I felt that this money could be better used to provide more targeted treatment for Buddy. I don't think they would have done much for him, and would have charged me an outrageous amount of money. I don't regret coming back home. 

I read the articles you sent me about Pseudomonas. Buddy sneezes everyday and scratches his nose, and sometimes a clear liquid comes out, but he doesn't seem to have a runny nose. Also, the back of throat is red again...(last time it was red he was diagnosed with spirochete and took antibiotics, then he got better). I will mention this to the vet tomorrow so we can test him. If he has Pseudomonas, it would only be a secondary infection, correct? It would not be the root of his problem?


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i dont know, maybe one of the others can offer insight on that.


i do want to say im glad he is doing better this morning, and im glad you are going to go to a good vet, some emergency vet when they wont take emergencies... 

keep him hydrated and warm, give him the pedialite and try to get him to eat anything he will eat right now. keep him comfortable. the fact that he was in a strange place and decided to sleep fluffed up concerns me, hes not even hiding the illness...


i have him in my prayers


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

No, he's not hiding the illness at all.
He still has diarrhea and was sleeping on the floor of the cage after he ate. You know, I've separated Cookie from him, but I think it's causing him a lot more stress. Although I put the cages right next to each other and they can see one another completely, they won't stop calling out for each other. Buddy is walking all over the cage and climbing on the walls screaming for Cookie. He even flew out of the cage when the door was opened. And Cookie is super restless in the little cage calling out for him. I don't think Buddy needs this riht now, he needs to sleep and conserve energy, but I have to leave the house soon and I don't want Cookie too close to him at this point. I don't know what to do. 

P.S. how often should I give him pedialite?


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i wouldnt want to stress him, so give him a few drops once or twice a day. if you can, put it in his water if he is drinking.

if it is stressing him out being separated, its up to you to take the risk and go with what you think is better.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> If he has Pseudomonas, it would only be a secondary infection, correct? It would not be the root of his problem?


Some of the mods were talking about it privately, and that was our thought - that it might be a secondary infection, and might have caused the crop swelling that he had yesterday. We're not avian vets of course, but we thought that the problem had been going on too long for pseudomonas to be the primary problem. If pseudomonas is a problem, the primary treatment is Amikacin since it's resistant to other antibiotics.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm sorry you had this experience, but I think you did all the right things. I'm glad Buddy seems a bit more stable today, and I hope you can get some answers tomorrow.

As far as his diagnosis goes -- I personally doubt that Pseudomonas is his primary problem, because it tends to become fatal very quickly if not treated aggressively. So I doubt that he could have had it for weeks and weeks undiagnosed. But, I could be wrong, and there have been cases of birds that had it chronically. I think at this point, you should treat anything that is found and diagnosed, and just take it one day at a time in terms of his response. Anything that makes him better is a good thing, whether it's treating a primary or secondary problem.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

While I am angry at the vets (AGAIN!) I was sure you'd be like a hawk and make good choices for Buddy I am glad his crop content moved slowly. I am relieved that he seems more stable until he can make it to a proper vet tomorrow. He is such a strong boy, sweet baby <3

And those outrageous fees?!?!?!? Are they out of their mind? They do not even know about the birds, how do they even dare asking for that much money?!? 

I think they tried to ignore you into leaving or Buddy passing away so they didnt have to take him in and either mess up or admit they dont know anything. Or I am too evil and reading into stuff  

You have been such a good mummy and if Buddy survives this disease, it will be because of all you have done for him. He is also such a fighter, tough boyyy


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I have a feeling the office you took him to was unsure what to do about Buddy but they didn't want to direct you elsewhere..so they were handling the cases they knew they could help first. Which isn't right, but it is likely why you were ignored.

Here's to hoping Buddy makes it another night.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yeah, what's weird about this office is that I called them this morning telling them that I was coming, and they assured me that they knew how to treat birds, and that an exotics vet could be reached through the phone if the doctors needed advice. Well, apparently they didn't know much about birds. Maybe they just wanted to get as much money out of me as possible while doing basic emergency care. I mean, anyone who understands birds knows that they are much more sensitive than dogs, and that a very sick bird should be priority over dogs who look okay. Oh..and they charge $400 to do CPR if the animal's heart stops during treatment. Isn't this like, INSANE??? And they are the cheapest place that I found. I called around. 

So, is Pseudomonas contagious? I separated Cookie and Buddy, but had to put them back together because they went crazy screaming for each other. But if Buddy keeps getting all those secondary infections, I'm wondering if they are contagious?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Pseudomonas is everywhere in the environment, so birds (and people) are exposed to it all the time. Most of the time, it doesn't cause any problems. But, when an individual becomes immunocompromised due to some other condition, then it can take over and cause an infection. So it's hard to say whether Cookie is in danger of catching it or not, if it is in fact Pseudomons infection. Most likely, she's healthy enough to fight it off.

It really does sound like that emergency place was out for money.  How terrible that that attitude would be so prevalent in a place that's supposed to help people with their pets in the most desperate circumstances.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I know Buddy's condition isn't very good right now, but he hopes he makes it so he can get some kind of treatment.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you. Buddy went to sleep just fine, and only wanted to eat bread, so I let him. I'll update you guys tomorrow.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Let him have whatever you can get him to eat. He needs all the energy he can get, where it comes from is not important right now.

Fingers crossed.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Hey guys, good news! Buddy woke up feeling SO much better! As soon as he woke up he ate, and now he's walking around nibbling his toys. His overnight droppings are back to "normal". He's still puffed up and obviously not feeling well, but that's a big improvement from yesterday! I'm still searching for a vet who can see him today, but I thought I'd let you know the good news.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Glad to hear he is feeling better! Hopefully a vet will be able to get this mystery illness sorted for you!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Go Buddy! Sounds like he wants to fight this illness just as much as you do.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I know, my poor Buddy baby wants to live! Hes such a strong boy. I wasn't able to get an emergency appointment at that excellent place I told you about. I asked them to recommend me a good vet, and they recommended me Buddy's vet! Not many places were opened early this morning and I had to go to work, so now I have to find Buddy an afternoon appointment. Should I go to his old vet, or try a new vet from the recommended page that tielfan posted? Buddy's vet is also listed there...I honestly don't know which is better.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

go with what YOU think is better. your old vet knows more what is going on, but if she or he isnt willing to do much more or you arent keen on it, it might be worth checking out the other vet


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok...buddy's vet is not available today, but there is another vet there who has more than 20 years of experience with birds, and shes also on that recommended list that tielfan posted. I got an appointment with her for Buddy this late afternoon. Ill mention to her everything that was recommended here. I'm so glad I was able to get an appointment today! Ill let you guys know what happens


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Good luck with the appointment. Let us know how it goes.


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## Clair (Jul 31, 2012)

Good luck! Fingers crossed over here!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Good luck, and be sure to tell her about your regular vet and what you've done with him (her?). That will allow the new vet to coordinate with the old vet if she wants to, and if she has any opinion (good or bad) about the other vet it will help her evaluate the quality of the care Buddy has gotten so far.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Hey everyone,

So, I took Buddy to his appointment and here's the update (kinda long):

I cancelled the appointment because I found another vet at a different place who could see Buddy, and she was also on that list of recommended vets that tielfan posted. I really wanted to get a different opinion from a completely different vet, because after all, that was what I had planned to do initially, before Buddy became an emergency.

So, I took him there, and I also had Buddy's vet (Dr. Orcutt) fax all of his medical records to this new place. When I saw the vet, the first thing she said to me is that Dr. Orcutt is a top-of-the-line bird specialist, the best that I can find in MA, that she writes books on birds. She also said that she takes her own birds to see Dr. Orcutt when they are sick, and that if Dr. Orcutt didn't solve Buddy's problem, she probably would not be able to. I felt completely discouraged, but decided to stay anyway because Buddy was in a sensitive situation.
Results: Buddy was extremely dehydrated like you guys had already said. She was surprised that he was not worse. (he's a strong bird!) He also has complete crop stasis. The food in his crop has stopped moving completely, and she could actually feel the seeds in it, and said that everything inside has turned into a thick paste. That's why he was vomiting. Buddy also lost a lot of weight - he's down to 85 grams, when his normal weight is 98 grams. She gave him S-fluids and told me to buy baby food to give him instead of giving seeds.
She also suggested a crop flush, but said that she would need to sedate Buddy to do it, because she doesn't feel comfortable doing it without sedating him. I didn't allow for a crop flush because I didn't feel comfortable- he's very weak, and sedating him could kill him right now. 
She strongly suspects that he has PDD. Apparently Buddy is following the PDD pattern, now that he's unable to digest food. 

My options:
She didn't do any tests because it would all depend on what type of treatment I would want to follow, so she only took care of Buddy's immediate needs, and I'm supposed to think about what I'm about to tell you.

Surprisingly, she has an eclectus who was diagnosed with PDD and survived it. The bird was at death's door, and took every kind of medicine but it didn't help. Then she took him to a homeopathic vet and did a complete treatment with her, based on a completely different diet and herbal medicines, and the bird improved completely and has not shown any signs of the disease in 2 years. 
So, that's option #1 for me, but it costs at least $500.
Option #2: test Buddy for PDD (even though it's not reliable) and do a biopsy, x-rays, and everything else to see what he has, and if it's PDD, treat him the traditional way.
Option #3: do not diagnose, and treat him with Baytril and an anti-fungal, and if he gets worse, put him to sleep. 

That's it. I feel trapped right now because I feel that the best option for Buddy would be this homeopathic treatment, but I cannot afford it. It's heartbreaking to know that you don't have the money to make the best choices for your baby. I still don't know what I'm going to do, but wanted to update you guys.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

we are here for you no matter which option you choose 

weigh your options and see what you feel is best for him. no matter what, his best interests are at heart and you will make the right choice for him.

keep us all updated, we all want to support you and help you along


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think if Buddy were in my care, I would ask for an antifungal and a strong, injectable antibiotic (not just Baytril). I would also have the crop flush done, since the crop contents will eventually begin to rot if not cleared out. 

While the homeopathic treatment sounds promising, it is little better than a case study, since we only know of one bird that improved on this regimen. I wouldn't go so far as to conclude that it is the best/only option for Buddy. While treating with antibiotics and antifungals, would it be possible for you to call the homeopathic vet and ask for more details on the treatment regimen proposed? I would certainly want more info on the specifics before agreeing to pay that much.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Not an easy decision you have to make, but you will make the right one for Buddy and your family. ((((((BIG HUGS)))))) for you and cuddles for Buddy. Know that I am thinking of you both and hoping for the best outcome possible for you.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you so much, everyone. All the support that I'm receiving here is wonderful, and its great to know that Buddy has so many people willing to help him and wishing his best. You guys greatly encourage me. 

The thing with the homeopathic vet- there cannot be any traces of antibiotics in Buddy's system if he does this treatment, so its one or the other. I will call her tomorrow and get all the details to see how it really works. 

Getting his crop flushed makes me so nervous. I'm scared that he will die while being aerated. Is there any way to make the food go down without flushing his crop?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Sedated, I mean


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

im sorry, but if the food is not passing, he needs the crop flushed. because if his crop is blocked, even with meds he might not make it if he starves from not being able to digest the food. i would most definitely try for the crop flush, even if you can find a vet more comfortable doing it when he is awake (if possible im not a vet, i just know it can be done with babies)


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Can the vet you saw today give you info on what the homeopathic vet did for her bird, so you can research it and replicate it without the fee if it looks good to you? In addition to the standard medical treatments of course.

Here's the problem: true homeopathy appears to be a placebo, and if you put your trust and your money into this approach you might not get anything substantive in return. There isn't a shred of objective evidence backing it up, and the basic principles of homeopathy fly directly in the face of every known scientific principle. ***BUT*** diet changes and herbs are NOT true homeopathy (assuming that the herbs haven't been diluted to the point of nonexistence), so it's possible that this aspect of the treatment might actually have a beneficial effect. Herbal treatments tend to not pan out very well in scientific experiments but that doesn't mean that all herbal treatments are ineffective. So before you spend a lot of money on something like this, it would be helpful to know more about the planned treatment so you can research it and see whether it might have any kind of real basis to it. The recovery of the vet's ekkie is an anecdotal report that might or might not be valid; the bird might have recovered for a different reason and everyone assumed that the homeopathic treatment was effective. 

If you know the name of the homeopathic vet, you can look at his/her website to see how he describes himself and what sort of treatments he provides. If he calls himself a holistic vet, that's different than calling himself a homeopathic vet. I'd have a little more confidence in "holistic" than "homeopathic" but unfortunately there's an awful lot that falls under the holistic banner that seems like pure woo woo to me. It's the sort of thing that I would LIKE to be true but doesn't actually seem to be true.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

> The thing with the homeopathic vet- there cannot be any traces of antibiotics in Buddy's system if he does this treatment, so its one or the other.


This makes no sense to me, medically. I am personally not a big believer in homeopathy, although I try to keep an open mind. But I don't know why herbal/homeopathic treatments would be impeded by antibiotics. I would ask that question specifically. If not using antibiotics, I would also want cultures and tests done to make sure he doesn't have a rapidly-fatal secondary infection like Pseudomonas. 

As far as the crop, you can take a look at the various remedies people use to treat slow crop in babies. Some people use apple sauce or alka seltzer, or the spice remedy. (http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32584) But I'm not sure that this will work the same way in Buddy, whose entire digestive system is incredibly abnormal, whereas in a baby problems would generally be less severe. 

The only thing I can tell you is that if his crop isn't flushed and doesn't empty on its own, he will eventually suffer from the contents going sour. In that case, I would think it would be merciful to either have it emptied, or for him to die under anesthesia. You may have some time to try other remedies and see how things go, especially since he seems to have rallied today. Also, again, I hope you know that I'm not saying any of this to upset you -- I really feel for you, and had to make these considerations for my Sunny when his respiratory issues were really bad a few months ago. 

We will support you no matter what you decide. I'm sure Buddy knows how much you love him.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I just thought of something... ekkies are notorious for having food sensitivities, to the point that feeding them pellets is frequently not a good idea. A diet change that eliminated a problem food could have a very beneficial effect on a bird like that. PDD is hard to diagnose, and unless they had some kind of rock-solid proof of PDD it's possible that the real problem was some kind of food sensitivity.

Could this be the problem with Buddy too? I have no idea, but if it's possible to change his diet without stressing or starving him, it would be worth a try.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Traditional medicine supported by diet change and herbs seem like a good idea. When I research about herbal remedies, it is always said that they are to be used with the vet's approval especially if the bird is already on treatment and the herbal remedies are used as either to strengthen the treatment or the bird's immune system (or both). 

What did the vet say about redness at the back of Buddy's throat? Did you guys discuss the spirochete? Did she say anything about the droppings going mostly back to normal after spirochete treatment???

I am sure you will make the right choice for Buddy. You have come this far, stuck by him no matter what.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I still have to call this homeopathic vet and find out more about how the treatment is, but basically, from what the vet explained, it's some weird stuff. Before doing the diet change and herbal treatment, they need to see what's really bothering the bird, and I can't really explain what it is. The vet said there are videos online of this vet, but I have to find it. I'll post it here when I find it.

The vet said that her eclectus really had PDD because she did a biopsy, blood test, and fecal test, and they call came back positive. Although the test is not 100% reliable, they don't usually give false positives, and her bird had all the symptoms. Apparently PDD affects eclectuses in a different way than cockatiels: more on the neurological side, and her bird was having trouble walking and had a lot of other symptoms. Then the homeopathic vet did some weird stuff and told her that the bird had a virus, and treated him for PDD. Apparently the bird was almost dead before beginning this treatment, and it was what saved him. 

I believe there can't be traces of antibiotics because it could interfere with some of the herbs, but I'm not sure. Apparently the body needs to be free of other drugs before starting this treatment. But when I find out more about this vet I'll let you know. 

The vet did tell me that it doesn't work for everybody, and that you have to be a true believer for it to work. It's s little sketchy, I feel that none of the options I have are 100%, but I'm leaning towards the antibiotics/antifungals.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

We did discuss the spirochete and how Buddy's droppings improved after the antibiotics, and she also is not sure why that happened, but said that if I want to, we can go back to that antibiotic and see how Buddy does. She seems to be very open to what kind of treatment I want to pursue with Buddy. I'm not sure if I should try a stronger antibiotic, or go back to the one that cured his spirochete.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

CookieTiel said:


> The vet did tell me that it doesn't work for everybody, and that you have to be a true believer for it to work.


That really sounds like a placebo treatment to me. I don't doubt her eclectus had PDD, but the thing about viruses is that they can't really be treated -- either the immune system eventually fights the virus into remission, or the individual dies from the virus. So it's entirely possible that the eclectus recovered naturally, and it just happened to be at the same time as the herbal treatments. Of course, it's also possible that the herbs worked, but without a biological mechanism for their action, that seems hard to prove. I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a downer. I really do try to keep an open mind, but I'm also a scientist, so it's hard for me to believe wholeheartedly in a treatment that lacks empirical support. I would definitely be interested to see what this vet has to say about how it works, though.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i am all for one for _holistic_ treatments, but this vet's homeopathic route sounds a bit strange to me. guessing that might be the difference 

i think you should go with your gut feeling. if the antibiotics might work it might be worth going for it.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Although I don't know much about how this vet's treatment works, after thinking about it last night with my husband we realized that it might not be worth investing so much money in something that might not even work. Although some people swear by homeopathic treatments, for some reason it only seems to work for a few people and therefore can't really be counted on. I can't help thinking about people with cancer who rely entirely on homeopathic treatments: I've heard of great stories where they were cured, but for the majority of people it doesn't seem to work. 
I think I am more comfortable with the antibiotics and antifungal treatments + the crop flush. Buddy is so skinny right now and he's already suffering so much, that if he dies during anesthesia it will be a humane way for him to die. If he doesn't improve after the treatment and continues to get worse, I think we will put him to sleep. It's better than allowing him to starve to death, which is a horrible way to die. 

Today we gave Buddy baby food and I'm trying to give him soft foods, although he still prefers seeds and most likely eats them when I'm not home. I've put him and Cookie back together because it was causing them both too much stress, so I can't take the seeds out of the cage because of Cookie. 

Buddy is suffering so much, my husband wants to euthanize him now and end his suffering, but I want to try one last treatment for him. I also think he's at the end of the rope, but he's such a strong boy and he's fighting so hard, I want to give him one more chance. 





enigma731 said:


> That really sounds like a placebo treatment to me. I don't doubt her eclectus had PDD, but the thing about viruses is that they can't really be treated -- either the immune system eventually fights the virus into remission, or the individual dies from the virus. So it's entirely possible that the eclectus recovered naturally, and it just happened to be at the same time as the herbal treatments. Of course, it's also possible that the herbs worked, but without a biological mechanism for their action, that seems hard to prove. I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a downer. I really do try to keep an open mind, but I'm also a scientist, so it's hard for me to believe wholeheartedly in a treatment that lacks empirical support. I would definitely be interested to see what this vet has to say about how it works, though.


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## Clair (Jul 31, 2012)

While reading all the posts, I was hoping you'd do the antibiotics/antifungal and crop flush over the "you have to be a true believer" treatment. 

I know (boy do I know) how expensive it is to treat a sick bird, but when they're like one of your children, you feel like you need to do everything you can. Good luck Buddy!! ((hugs)) to you both.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I agree with everything you've said in your last post, and would probably take the same course of action if Buddy were my bird. The one thing I do want to stress is that I think you need injectable antibiotics, whether you use something strong like Amikacin, or something more targeted to the spyrochetes, like Doxycycline (is that what he was on before?) Either way, if his GI system is shut down, he will not be able to absorb an oral med, which is why you need an alternative.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Clair said:


> While reading all the posts, I was hoping you'd do the antibiotics/antifungal and crop flush over the "you have to be a true believer" treatment.
> 
> I know (boy do I know) how expensive it is to treat a sick bird, but when they're like one of your children, you feel like you need to do everything you can. Good luck Buddy!! ((hugs)) to you both.


Yes, it does feel like he's my kid, and I've only had him for 4 months! When I tell people who don't have birds about what I'm going through with Buddy, they don't understand and think I'm crazy to spend this much money on a bird. But he's my baby!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

enigma731 said:


> I agree with everything you've said in your last post, and would probably take the same course of action if Buddy were my bird. The one thing I do want to stress is that I think you need injectable antibiotics, whether you use something strong like Amikacin, or something more targeted to the spyrochetes, like Doxycycline (is that what he was on before?) Either way, if his GI system is shut down, he will not be able to absorb an oral med, which is why you need an alternative.


Thank you, enigma731. Yes, Buddy was given Doxycycline. I'm not sure what to ask the vet for...Does it matter which type of antibiotics it is, as long as it's injectable?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, yes, if he has a bacteria that's resistant to some types of antibiotics. Unfortunately you can't know that without doing cultures, and cultures take time. Maybe at least ask for a repeated gram stain? I would have this discussion with your vet.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ok, I'll discuss it with her.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Continuing to send good wishes to you and Buddy.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> you have to be a true believer for it to work


If that's the case, it's faith healing not medicine. AKA a placebo. The owner THINKS the bird is better, or attributes the bird's improved health to the homeopathic treatment when it was really caused by something else. 

I'm glad that you looked into this more before making a decision. Diet changes and herbs might help as supplemental support for real medical treatment, but anything where you have to be a true believer for it to work isn't worth wasting your time and money on.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

If you will start him on medication for infection anyway, you could get a sample for culture in case you would need to change the medication based on the strain of bacteria/fungus they find. 

I also think that if you need you be a true believer for something to work and reject every other treatment, you'd better dump it  But I also think proper dosages of herbal treatment as a supplementary treatment to traditional medicine helps a lot. 

The vet's bird might have survived due to herbs giving his immune system a boost to fight off the virus into remission, but it is not enough evidence to take a risk. You can give the herbal support while he is on medication as well, just make sure they do not interfere. (That's also what the vets are for! )

And I agree with the injections rather than oral application of medication. He needs his medication injected and hopefully some food as well (like dextrose) for some energy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yeah, well, I wouldn't have been able to afford it even if that's what I had chosen. I don't know exactly how that bird's treatment went or what they did to him, but the vet said they did the "weird stuff", something to do with his muscles, to choose the appropriate food and herbs for his treatment, and it was what he ate that cured him. Like I said, I can't judge because it wasn't my bird and I don't know exactly what they did to him, but she is a vet and she claims to be the treatment that cured him, so I'm glad that it worked for him! 
But, in my case, I will try for the antibiotics and antifungal.


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## Caro234 (Aug 27, 2010)

Have just caught up with this thread and just want you to know how sorry I am that you are going through this. 
I know Buddy's last culture was negative for AGY but I think this should also be reconsidered - his symptoms and the up and down nature of this illness reminds me of our Rocky who had this undiagnosed for nine months - Rocky would end up producing seeds made up entirely of seed and he would vomit - amazing how far that could go! Vet kept diagnosing bacterial infection and injecting baytril. He would partially improve but still have seeds in his droppings so in the end I put GSE (citricidal) or Guardian Angel in his water - he would be better for a month or so then the cycle would start again. 
By using ACV it is possible that you have been dampening down the AGY helped by the course of antibiotics and ampB. 
I don't feel that I can match the expertise of some of the people who post here - I pick up so much useful information from them - but just want to suggest maybe megabac S and an antibiotic. 
Wishing you and Buddy all the best.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the great info! When your bird had this problem, did the vet mention PDD at all, or was it clear that it was a bacterial infection? I'm asking because it seems like Buddy and Rocky had similar symptoms, and this gives me hope that it's not PDD. Did Rocky lose weight too? And is how is he now?


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## Caro234 (Aug 27, 2010)

I mentionned PDD and was told it is rare in cockatiels - I would always think AGY first before PDD. He lost a lot of weight but in the early stages of the illness he would continually eat. AGY is a yeast infection not a bacterial one but it messes with the flora in the gut so the good/bad bacteria get out of balance as well. Buddy may have AGY - he may not have had the full dose of amp B but it may have been enough to lessen the symptoms for a while. I do know that by acidifying the water with GSE or ACV you can improve the symptoms but not cure it - it always comes back. 
Unfortunately Rocky died a month after finishing the megabac S treatment - he had increased his body weight by 10% and was doing well. However during his next check up vet found crop infection and insisted on admitting him to crop feed him nystatin. He died while being crop fed. Vet said it was a heart attack but I think they may have aspirated him as I later found out they had also been feeding him pelleted mush. 
However I do know of a bird that had AGY and recovered after owner used megabac s in his water. I have lost touch with his owner but I do know that six months later he was still alive and well. 
Just thought you should reconsider AGY especially as it can be hard to spot in cultures. I hope you can get Buddy well - you deserve a good outcome from this after all your efforts.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm sorry for the loss of Rocky, how frustrating it must have been for you to lose him after the treatment. I always suspected that Buddy still had AGY, but my vet said that he was supposed to have improved after the 10 days of ampho B, if it was the AGY that caused the passing of the seeds in the first place. Ironically, it was the antibiotics that made him improve. I will talk to my vet about Megabac S and see what she thinks. Thanks for the advice!


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

How is Buddy boy doing today? Are there any developments?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy is doing better after he received the fluids. His crop emptied and I'm guessing it's moving, because he's digesting food again. We've been giving him baby food in the mornings, so I guess that's helping his digestion. The vet said that as long as he's able to digest, he doesn't need a crop flush. He's also a bit more active. He gets out of the cage, plays a little with Cookie, but he seems to tire easily and sleeps most of the time during the day. The vet decided to put him on 3 meds: Baytril, Diflucan, and Reglan, all administered orally, now that he's digesting. What do you guys think?


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear he's doing better and digesting food. Hang in there Buddy!


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

Glad to hear buddy is better. I would watch the poops carefully but it sounds like he is doing better. Hopefully the medication helps and he gets back to normal health. How is administering the medications orally going? Is he taking it well? I know some people have trouble because their bird squirms too much. Wishing you and Buddy all the best.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

The medications were ready for pick up yesterday and I gave Buddy his first doses this morning. So far, no improvements yet, I think it's too early. He's sleeping in the cage all day, and Cookie preens him all day long. Could she be worried about him? Cookie remains around the cage all day and is very active, but she doesn't go to the floor to forage or to her playground anymore. She stays on top of the cage and goes around it exploring every inch, playing with her toys and doing bat bird, but she preens Buddy constantly. I'm not sure what this behavior is. I know that she's showing affection for him, but I've never seen her doing it this much. Is she worried? Any ideas?


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

I have first hand experience in birds supporting each other when they are sick (they were budgies, though, but cockatiels are much gentler birds, so why not?) So it is possible that Cookie is aware Buddy is sick so she is showing more affection towards him, maybe to comfort him so that he knows he has his friend there. 

It could also be less romantic that that  But I am glad she is there for Buddy, no matter what her reasons are. 

How is Buddy in general? Is his digestive system working again? The meds take some time to work, especially fungal infection treatments take a long time, but they are there to cover a wide range of diseases, so I hope they work and Buddy gets better.

His digestive system was working a few days ago from what I remember, did the vet rule PDD out or is she making sure everything else is done before PDD treatment is considered?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Well, his digestive system is back to working slowly again. The baby food has been helping, though. Unfortunately PDD is still an option, and the vet believes that's what it is. I don't know what the next step is, if the meds don't work, unfortunately.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Well if the vet thinks it is PDD and the meds dont help him improve, then there is treatment you will try and see. 

Hopefully there wont be any need for that.

Kisses to Buddy's sleepy little head


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Reglan helps the digestive system work, so hopefully that will kick in soon.  Still thinking of you and Buddy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yeah, I think the Reglan is kicking in. Throughout the night Buddy had a LOT of poop. I mean, a LOT. This means that the Reglan is helping his digestive system and he's able to digest food faster now. Hopefully that will enable him to gain some weight. I'm surprised at the results, because the dose I give him is probably less than a drop, it's just 0.02ml. I even doubted that it got into his system because he was moving around, but I guess it did!


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Yay! I'm happy to hear it is working


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Wooooooo! Go Buddy Go!

I am sooo happy his digestive system is getting back on track. Whichever med is working, it is working and he will hopefully gain his strength back

:clap::clap::clap:

Celebrating the poopies


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

yes 
Buddy is happier today!! He was more active, ate a lot, went to his play gym all by himself (he hadn't done that in weeks!), and seems more energetic. The meds are working! There are still seeds in his droppings, but hopefully they will decrease. I'm really hoping that Buddy will gain some weight, he is terribly skinny!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Forgot to mention that the seeds in the droppings are now back to 50%, so they have decreased, but I'm hoping they will decrease more.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Yay Buddy!!


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Glad to hear that Buddy is doing better,hope he continues to improve.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you!  He even did his mating call today. I haven't heard that one in a long time! It's a sign that he's feeling better


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Way to go Buddy!


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

So glad to hear Buddy is doing better.That is terrific news.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Yay Buddy! I am so happy to hear he is feeling better!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy continues to get better. Today he even allowed me to give him a mist bath. He hasn't had one in about 1 month because he absolutely refused to, and was terribly dusty. Today he got soaked! His feathers also look better, they are shinier and smoother. I don't know which of the meds are working, but something is making him feel better! My only concern now is that when I was giving him the mist bath, I noticed that he has 2 bald spots, one under each wing, at the deepest part of the wing. What is this? Could he be moulting, or is this a sign of some vitamin/nutrient deficiency?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's normal for birds to have somewhat thinner feathering under the wings. Are you sure that what you saw was new?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm not sure that it's new. Today is actually the first time I noticed it, but I guess it could have been there before. Buddy doesn't like baths much and he usually runs away from them, so it's really hard to look under his wings. I'll keep an eye on it and see if it changes.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm so glad to hear that Buddy's continuing to improve.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm happy to hear that Buddy is continuing to get better!


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

How is Buddy doing today?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Seems like he had a relapse...He's in the cage all day today, although he's not sleeping. He's eating well and everything, just not happy. He's also not puffed up, he just doesn't want to play. Cookie is staying by his side the entire time and preens him often.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I hope hope hope it is just and off day! Still thinking of you and Buddy<3


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

How is Buddy today? Better I hope.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

He's better today! The doctor said that I could take him off the Reglan to see how he does, and I stopped giving it to him yesterday. So far he seems fine without it, he is able to digest food again at a normal rate! He doesn't puff up like he used to, although he stays in his cage most of the day. At this point, he doesn't "look" sick, so I can't tell if he's not getting out of the cage because he's not feeling well, or because he's bored, or just not happy. It's so hard to tell. He plays with toys a little, but only inside the cage. Cookie stays in the cage with him most of the day, and I'm afraid they're both becoming cage-bound


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Update: the seeds in Buddy's droppings are still there, and is not getting better anymore. But Buddy is still active and I think he gained some weight, because his keelbone feels meatier. He also wants to interact with me more and does silly things to get attention. Sometimes he even prefers me over Cookie. I feel so special 
He's almost done with the antibiotics, so I am wondering if the doctor will want to give me some more or take a break. Since the seeds in the droppings have not gone away, I'm hoping that Buddy's condition will at least stabilize and that it is something that he can live with.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I hope he stabilizes too, it would take a lot of worry off of you! I am happy to hear that he is happy and active though that is a huge positive!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm glad he seems to be doing better, even with the downfalls.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy is also eating pellets much more these days. He finally seems to like them. However, he only eats fruity pellets, and only the red and yellow ones. Very picky, but I'm glad that he's starting to like them! I'm giving him the Kaytee Exact fruity pellets.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Now that the other meds did their thing and showed that once Buddy's digestive system is working, there is still some undigested food, is the vet thinking of starting him on treatment for PDD?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy finished his antibiotics about 4 days ago, and now he's starting to sleep all day in the cage again. He's getting worse ever since he stopped it. It seems that antibiotics make him feel a lot better, but once he stops them, he gets worse. I wonder why. His digestive system is working perfectly, but he is once again back to being lethargic. I will call the vet tomorrow and see what she wants to do. I will talk to her about Celebrex as well.


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## Clair (Jul 31, 2012)

Poor little guy.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I really think you need to get some bloodwork. It sounds like he might have an infection that's partly resistant to the antibiotics you're using, so that the numbers get knocked down but then come back as soon as the meds stop.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I spoke to the vet about that, and she thinks that since Buddy got so much better on the antibiotics, she wants to put him back on it for another month. She said that sometimes there are leftover bugs that didn't get killed, so in this situation it's good to leave the bird on it for a longer period of time. Buddy is back to sneezing a lot again after he stopped the antibiotics too.
Then, if Buddy gets worse for any reason while he's on the antibiotics, the next step would be bloodwork, because it's possible that he has an infection that's resistant to antibiotics. 

He had diarrhea yesterday, but now his droppings are back to normal. Yesterday his droppings were mostly SEEDLESS! Today they are looking pretty good as well. He stopped the antifungal 2 days ago. 

Although Buddy had diarrhea yesterday, he was so happy and active! I have NEVER seen him this way, ever since I bought him. He walked around the entire house (something he NEVER did before), called Cookie to follow him, and when she didn't want to, he went by himself. He started biting my couch, my kitchen cabinets, wires, everything and anything he could get to. He was just impossible! I kept a close eye on him because he was getting into so much trouble! I have never seen him like this before so I was very happy. Today he is on the quiet side, but seems to be feeling well. I made that egg stuff on the Nutrition page and he gobbled it down.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Wooohooo go Buddy go!

I am sure you needed this so much and you must be relieved a bit. 

Sweet boyyyy <3


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Yay Buddy!


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Way to go Buddy keep getting better.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I have just noticed that Buddy's wing feathers are not growing. Over a month ago I clipped both Buddy's and Cookie's wings, and now Cookie's have grown back almost completely, while Buddy's look the same as when I cut it! It didn't grow at all! Is this normal for sick birds?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It all depends on when they molt. Molting can be delayed by illness or malnutrition, but it also may just be the cycle that his body is on. My birds don't molt simultaneously.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Wing feathers don't grow continuously like hair does. Instead the feather grows to full size and stays that way until it is molted and a new feather grows in. If the mature feather is damaged (by clipping for example) it will stay in that condition until it is molted out.

Cookie must have molted out the clipped wing feathers and replaced them with new feathers. Buddy didn't. Maybe they're on a different molting cycle, or maybe Buddy isn't molting because of his health issues. Molting is high-energy business that puts an extra strain on a sick bird, so sometimes sick birds don't molt on schedule.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ohhh, so Cookie must have molted out the clipped feathers. I remember seeing some cut feathers on the bottom of the cage once. She has also lost a few of her tail feathers recently. So she must still be molting! I haven't seen any of Buddy's feathers. So I guess they are either on different molting cycles or Buddy's got delayed by the illness.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I believe it is the end of the road for Buddy. 
the antibiotics are not working, and he is severely worse than he was. He just vegetates now, sleeps all day. He eats little and is very skinny. I think his digestive system has completely shut down, because he is only able to digest food if I give him Reglan. He is also very weak and no longer protests when we hold him to give him his meds. He is suffering so much. Yesterday when I put him back on his perch he fell off. 

And to add to that, Cookie is unbonding with him and bonding with me. She is extremely bored with him and screams all day long, even though I give her tons of attention. When I give Buddy scritches, Cookie gets jealous and bites his feet. She still loves him, just not as much. I feel so bad for my baby.

But I cant bring myself to euthanize him, because I feel like I am betraying him. Is it worse to let him suffer until he dies, and expose Cookie to all that? Im also afraid that Cookie will go into depression, but I cant get another bird until the results of the autopsy come out, and then there is quarantine...i dont know if Cookie can wait...

What do you guys think about all this?


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I am so sorry. I was really hoping Buddy would get better. I can't imagine how hard this decision is for you. You have tried so hard for him. If he is suffering, I think I would put him down. Tears. : ( Perhaps get your vet's opinion?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yeah, I will talk to my vet. I know that as a last measure we could try bloodwork, but we have spent 900 dollars on Buddy, and it let to nowhere. We cant afford to do more tests...and they dont give a specific diagnosis anyway. I feel like im just prolonging his suffering. But he trusts me so much, I feel terrible putting him down...and if he really has pdd, Cookie will never be able to have another companion. She will be so lonely.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I would definitely talk to the vet and see if he/she knows why the antibiotics aren't helping. If I remember correctly, previously there was improvement on the antibiotics, correct? Maybe he's becoming resistent to them and needs a different kind? Just a thought. And since you don't know yet if it's pdd, don't worry yet about Cookie and another companion. Those are still unknowns. It might not be pdd and Cookie might not have it. I know it's hard but try not to think about the "what ifs" just yet. Doing that can make you crazy. You've done so much to try to help Buddy. I know on some level he has to understand that and appreciate your efforts. Talk to the vet and see if another med might help. Hugs.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm so sorry that Buddy isn't doing well. You have done so so much for him and I know he has had a happy life with you, your husband and Cookie. I am so so sure he knows he is loved! I think that if he is suffering I'd have him put down, it is hard but it will be better in the end. I am in tears for you and little Buddy.
And chances are Cookie will be ok alone. I didn't think Sunny would be after Chickie passed and he is doing really well. We just make sure we leave the radio on for him during the day and give him lots of attention when we are home. 
Big hugs to you! I'll be thinking of you.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Personally, I would euthanize Buddy. Not because you don't love him but because now he's just suffering. Cookie is biting at him because he's sick and healthy birds don't like to be near ill ones. Ill birds attract predators. And to be honest, you don't have to run out and buy Cookie another friend. She'll be fine on her own for a bit and it will help you come to terms with the loss of Buddy.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, everyone 
In respect to the antibiotics, this is a different one already. He's supposed to be on it for 1 month, and it's been 2 weeks without any improvement. (and a 2 week dose was $40!)

Yeah, my husband also thinks that the best decision is to put him down. We are not getting anywhere with the diagnosis, and everything we do just seems to prolong his life for a little bit of time. 

The hard part is that whenever I get home from work and Buddy sees me, he cheers up and makes a little whistling sound. He loves me so much  It feels terrible to have to put him down. 

As to Cookie, I have heard of birds who die of depression soon after their mate dies, and I'm so afraid this will happen to her.


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## Clair (Jul 31, 2012)

This breaks my heart. I'm so sorry. 

How can you tell if he's in pain?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't know if he's in pain. I mean, he doesn't scream or anything. He just tucks his head between his wings and sleeps all day. Sometimes he stays in the bottom of the cage and sometimes he perches. Other than eating, he just sleeps all day. Cookie calls him to go on their little adventures around the house and he just ignores her.
so...I don't know. If he's not in pain, he's deeply uncomfortable.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This is a terrible decision to have to make, and I had to make a similar decision once myself so I know how bad it feels. If Buddy was my bird, my decision would be that it's time to let him go. Except for the happy chirps when he sees you, it sounds like he doesn't have much quality of life left. He doesn't have the energy to do much but sleep, his mate doesn't want to be with him any more, and worst of all he's probably slowly starving to death. It's kinder to give him a quicker, cleaner end than the slower natural end that seems to be coming.

It's been 13 years since I had to have my little budgie put down and I still feel bad about it. I'm crying for her and for you too while I type this. But if I had to do it over again I would do exactly the same thing. There was no hope for a cure and she would have suffered more if I hadn't done it, so it was the right thing to do.


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## Clair (Jul 31, 2012)

Same here with my son's fancy rat (and near tears here too). However, I experienced terrible regret afterward - maybe it wasn't his time. Maybe he wasn't in pain.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, tielfan. It's such a hard decision, isn't it? But you and everyone else is right, Buddy is not having a good life, and I'm prolonging his suffering. 

I haven't made a decision yet, but what is the best way to euthanize him? The ideal would be something that puts him to sleep first, just so that he doesn't suffer or see it. 

I mean, when I take Cookie away from Buddy he calls out to her and she still flies back to him, but if he doesn't call her, she is fine and loves to be with me. And she still preens him sometimes, although not as much as before, when she stayed the entire day inside the cage by his side preening him. Do you think her screaming problems could be related to her being bored with Buddy? She clearly looks at me and screams, even though I give her hours of attention each day. She screams all day long, and only stops when I take her - and Buddy- and put them on my lap or shoulder. She clearly wants to be next to me all the time.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Clair said:


> Same here with my son's fancy rat (and near tears here too). However, I experienced terrible regret afterward - maybe it wasn't his time. Maybe he wasn't in pain.


really? ugh, that's terrible. But there's no way to know if he was really in pain, is there? Same with Buddy. I'm sorry that you regret it


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## Clair (Jul 31, 2012)

The rat had a huge, huge tumor (softball size, as I recall) and didn't have much time left anyway and her quality of life was pretty bad. She couldn't even get around because the tumor pushed one of her hind legs up and out. The vet agreed it was time, my kids agreed it was time - it was just me being a big baby about it.


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## SunnyNShandy (May 24, 2012)

My beloved Sammy died on his own, but I was going to euthanize him soon if he didnt. He stopped eating. I had to hand feed him water and raise the dish to his beak. It was heart wrenching at the end.

With dogs, I have always held the belief that I'd know. If they dont have 2 things in life they enjoy, it is time. Can be me, food, a toy, anything. But they need 2 things. Dogs live a really long time too and linger on in illness. Heartwrenching. You will second guess yourself. But in time you will see truly how sick they were and how you were both were hanging on for each other vs enjoying. I am SO SO sorry. My heart is breaking for you right now as I know exactly how you feel as it was just so recent for me.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the support. It breaks my heart to have to put him down. Right now I cannot bring myself to do it, I don't know why. I just cannot decide


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's likely that you're still hanging on to some hope that things could get better somehow, or you don't think the time has come yet. When you're sure that it's truly hopeless and that there's more suffering than joy in his life, that's the point where you'll also be sure that it's the right thing to do.


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi,
I feel terrible for what you and Buddy are going through  I really thought he would pull through. You have done so much for him, and his illness is just so difficult. This is a very hard decision to make, and you know best what his quality of life is like, it's really up to you to make the decision when you and Buddy are ready. 

But... I just went through the previous thread you had on Buddy's progress and this one, all the way from the beginning reading through all of it and making notes on what meds were tried and what the outcomes where, and what options are left. I guess I'm the type that's very stubborn to let go. I just had a couple ideas I wanted to share, about last options to try. When he was on antibiotics all this time, was he also given antifungals? I saw that the last prescribed meds were Baytril, Diflucan and Reglan. Diflucan is an antifungal, how long was he on it? Also you said that he's now on a different antibiotic, did you mean Baytril instead of Doxycycline, or something else? Since he got better on Baytril, maybe he should be back on Baytril (together with an antifungal) instead of the new antibiotic? And have you thought about trying Celebrex?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for your efforts in trying to help Buddy, RedQueen, I really appreciate it. Yes, Buddy was both on antifungals and antibiotics. Overall he had 2 different antifungals and 3 antibiotics. The antifungals were like water, had no effect. It was the antibiotics that helped. He improved by taking both Baytril and Doxycycline, and the one he is currently on is very similar to Baytril, it has the same composition I think. I also gave him ACV and saw no improvement...

I called the vet a few days ago but she's on vacation and will return on Tuesday. I left her a message asking many questions such as, euthanizing Buddy, trying Celebrex, or trying a different antibiotic. I know that Buddy will never have a good life anymore and that there's not much life left in him, but there's a part of me that doesn't want to let go. Maybe it's very selfish of me. 

Another problem that I have already mentioned is financial complications. I have spent 900 dollars on Buddy and cannot go on spending money on a mystery illness that has no cure. There are endless tests to be done, but none of them give a definite answer and there's not much promise in them either. All of the treatments available are only "guesses", no guarantees. I can't go on spending, I simply cannot afford it. If Celebrex is a cheap medication that I can afford, I still don't know that it's worth giving it to him, because I have read articles about it claiming that birds don't make a full recovery on it, and that there are side effects. Sometimes they get other infections and illnesses while on Celebrex, and that birds are never completely healthy and don't have the same quality of life as a healthy bird. So, is it worth to keep Buddy alive, if he's not going to have a good life? Maybe not. 

Sorry if I'm rambling. In my head I know that it's time for Buddy to go, but my heart will not allow it. I guess I will talk to the vet when she calls me back, and see what her thoughts are.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Thinking of you <3


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

It's good that you have thought this through so thoroughly and that you're getting your vet's opinion on it. I can see that mostly the remaining treatment options would be grasping at straws. When you feel ready to let go, don't look back, you did everything you could for Buddy. It's so sad that it turned out this way for him. At least you were there for him and he had a good life with you. :flowers:


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I will keep you updated when the vet calls me back on Tuesday. Yeah, I'm just not ready to let go. He keeps having those minor improvements that give me hope, but then he gets really bad again. It's those little improvements that make me think: oh, maybe he still has some life in him. They just confuse me. Today he actually went to the floor and walked around with Cookie. I don't know if he's forcing himself to do that, or if he actually had a minor improvement. But yesterday he slept all day...This disease is so confusing.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I have made up my mind to euthanize Buddy, even though the vet won't call me back until tomorrow. Right now he is drooling. I have never seen this, a bird drool? It's just clear liquid oozing from his mouth, and A LOT, together with a few seeds that he ate). We line the cage with paper towels, and there is a large section that is wet from his drooling. He looks so sad, as if he's suffering so much. I can tell that he's in so much pain just from the expression in his face. I'm going to take him tomorrow morning to be euthanized. It's too bad that only emergency places are open at this time, and they charge $300 to euthanize a small bird. I feel so bad for waiting this long, I only made him suffer! And to make things worse, Cookie is fighting so much with him right now in the cage, instead of sleeping together like they usually do! She's sleeping on the side of the cage with her tail on his back/head and keeps hissing, and they keep biting each other. My poor baby 

Is there any homemade pain killers to give Buddy?


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

Oh no, I'm so sorry  

I found this in another thread (http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=25557&highlight=aspirin):


> I have found that 1 baqby aspirin dissolved in 1 pint of water and used as the drinking water for a few days helps a bird with pain


The same advice was also given in this thread:
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=16034&highlight=aspirin

I think it may help Buddy in the meantime, if he'll drink it.


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

How is poor Buddy?


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Poor baby.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

He is terrible. Slept on the floor of the cage and drooled a lot. I don't know how so much water can come out of a little body like that. I'm taking him to the vet right now. I couldn't even sleep at night thinking about my poor baby. I will keep you guys posted.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Sweet little Buddy.. 

You are a very good mommy. I am sure he knows that. At this point, it sounds like Buddy will fly to rainbow bridge soon or maybe he already has. You are both in my thoughts.


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## SunnyandChickie (Jul 9, 2012)

Thinking of you and sweet little Buddy ((((hugs))))


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I took Buddy to the vet this morning and he was euthanized.  The vet said that he went very peacefully. I am terribly sad, and crying a lot, but I know this was the most humane thing I could do for him at this moment. Buddy was very weak. He regurgitated the whole night and had diarrhea. He didn't even have the strength to scream for Cookie when I put him in the carrier today. He made a few weak chirps, when he usually would scream a lot. He slept the entire way to the vet. At the vet's office, there were some dogs barking loudly, and even that didn't bother Buddy, as he continued to sleep. I said goodbye to him and patted his head for the last time. It didn't take long, and soon the vet was back with Buddy wrapped in a towel. I took hm back home with me, and will bury him in my friend's backyard later today. R.I.P Buddy.


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## daverohmfeld (Oct 26, 2012)

Sorry to hear about Buddy. Glad his pain is over.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for all the help, support, and encouragement that I received in this thread. You guys are amazing


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## RedQueen (Feb 21, 2012)

So sorry it ended like this. At least Buddy's pain is over. Thank you for keeping us updated.

I know this is hard right now, and I don't mean to bring up anything painful to think about, but have you considered doing a necroscopy?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes, I've considered it. It's outrageously expensive. $200 for a simple necropsy where they won't give me a definite answer: they would only open him up and tell me which organs look swollen or inflamed, and which ones look normal. No diagnosis. Then, a biopsy costs $250, for only 1 organ, and they would have to do multiple biopsies for him, which would maybe give me a definite answer. Unfortunately I cannot do it. I will have to go on without knowing what Buddy's illness was.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i am so sorry  i was hoping for a better outcome for Buddy. i too have had to make the very same decision as you, its horrible to have to make but it was the kindest option. Buddy was well loved and his story made a huge impact here


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, DallyTsuka. You and many others offered me great help and support throughout this time and I am very thankful.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I am sorry it ended this way as well. I'm sure Buddy knows how much you love him.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm sorry you had to go through all this. Buddy was well loved and cared for. You did everything right by him.


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