# Baytril Prescribed for Sunny...Your Thoughts?



## Annie

Hello, thank you all who offered advice/support under my other post entitled "Black Stool/Vomiting" (you know who you are! ). Sunny is much better now and I am convinced she will be fine.  I have started a new thread because I just want your expert opinion on this: 

Sunny's vet has prescribed a daily 0.2 ml dosage of Baytril (to be taken orally with a syringe) which I will be administering in another hour or so. Based on comments from some members here on my other post, the vet should have prescribed this earlier but he only prescribed it today. Right now Sunny is pretty much back to normal---like 100% normal, other than that her poop is still somewhat watery. Now I am paranoid that "if something ain't broken then don't fix it". What is your expert opinion on this? Could I be doing any harm by giving her the Baytril when she looks like she's recovered or should I just administer it to her anyway? I would like to see what you guys have to say on it (obviously because I have lost some confidence in her vet and won't be going to that clinic again but more on that later---I feel he decided to prescribe this only because I pushed him a bit for answers which shows me that he actually doesn't really know as much as he wants to appear to know). Thank you. Standing by for your responses....


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## roxy culver

I would say give the Baytril for the prescribed amount of time then give two weeks of probiotics to build back up her intestinal flora. Whatever it was that was affecting her could still be in her system but just dormant (and we know how they like to pretend not to be sick with they really are!)


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## enigma731

The elevated white count does suggest an infection, but I'd want to follow up on the question about metal toxicity as well. 

You'll get different responses from different people about Baytril. Some birds can have a bad reaction to it, just like humans can also have bad reactions to medications. Personally, I have used Baytril many times successfully, and I probably would give it to my bird in Sunny's situation. 

One thing that stands out to me is that the dose seems a bit high -- usually it is .06ml/100g weight, so Sunny would probably get around .05ml since she's a bit under 100g. BUT the dosage also depends on the medication's concentration. Does it say on the bottle what the concentration is? Your vet may have compounded it differently, hence the different dose. If you give the Baytril, keep an eye on the color of Sunny's urates. they should stay white. If they start to turn yellow or greenish, this means that the med is stressing her live and kidneys, and should be discontinued.

I'm glad she seems to be feeling better today! Do you plan to follow up with a different vet this week?


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## srtiels

I totally agree with Roxie's advice.


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## enigma731

Susanne, do you think the .2ml dosage is okay? Do they ever prescribe higher than the typical dosage for a clinical reason?


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## roxy culver

If I remember correctly when I got Hershey's baytril I was prescribed .2 or .3ml (I think it was .3ml.)


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## srtiels

Good points on the dosage. Annie, what size syrige did the vet give you, and also did he show you what line to draw the medication up to? NOTE: My pix shows syringes with needles. But the same info would be applicable to syringes without needles.


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## Annie

Thanks guys (actually, it's GALS ), you are too amazing. I don't know how you can usually respond with the MINUTE.

1) What probiotics should I give Sunny later? What's the name, where can I get it?

2) Re. the Baytril dosage: Okay here we go. The instructions are "please give 0.2ml by mouth once daily" and the description is "Baytril 50mg/ml injectable". That's all there is. Does that make it any clearer? Sunny's weight on Friday was 93g. It dropped to 91g the next morning. That was her last weigh-in. Will keep an eye on her urate.

3) Re. the vet, I have one last follow-up appointment next Wed. with him, at which time he will also file down her beak a bit because he said it was a tad long but not really bad, and I believe that will be the end of it. If he tries to talk me into getting further tests I will decline and contact another clinic to seek their advice. My experience with the clinic this week-end is such: I took her there Fri. afternoon. The female vet there suggested x-ray, blood test and physical which were all done($590). The next morning they called me to bring Sunny back because their avian specialist was in (the current male vet). He went over the test results with me and told me to go back in 2 hours so he could do a swab test, etc.($400) Then he said he would discuss the results with another specialist and sent me home with a bottle to collect Sunny's poop to bring back the next day. Last night I sent him an email to discuss with him what some of you told me to under my other post. This morning he called me at 8am and told me he got my email and would have some answers for me later today. Then I went and dropped off the poop sample and the receptionist said the results would be available tomorrow. Later today at around 1pm, the vet emailed me to ask if I picked up the meds at the clinic. I was like "Meds? What meds? You never mentioned any meds" so I called the clinic and they confirmed I should go pick up the Baytril so I got my dad to drive me there AGAIN. Of course I was not too happy that he didn't tell me to pick that up when I was there this morning anyway (it's a 30 minute drive each way). I am now still waiting for him to call me as he promised he would to give me the answers to exactly what Sunny has(had). *What I don't understand is what made him suddenly decide to prescribe the Baytril because as far as I know, there was no progress made here between yesterday and today.* As far as I know, we still don't know exactly what is(was) wrong with Sunny and he did not explain anything when he told me to go pick up the Baytril. Also, I don't like the sound of him having to consult with another specialist because this tells me he's not a real specialist and it is really bothering me. I really feel stupid I went there and I will NEVER go there again. My next thousand dollars will be spent at another clinic where they have REAL avian specialists. I'm just glad I got you gals to support me and my dad who is so supportive and is willing to do anything for me and Sunny. So I shall see if the vet will actually call me later today. That's the story. Please let me know if you agree that I have been fleeced so I will know next time.


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## Annie

srtiels said:


> Good points on the dosage. Annie, what size syrige did the vet give you, and also did he show you what line to draw the medication up to? NOTE: My pix shows syringes with needles. But the same info would be applicable to syringes without needles.


A picture is worth a thousand words so here's a photo of the tube of Baytril and the 2 syringes I got. 

The girl at reception quickly taught me how to draw the medication up, measure the 0.2ml and said to try and inject it slowly. Anything else I need to know? It will be my first time doing this so I'm a bit nervous.


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## enigma731

Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBUWWqqEyE&feature=related It's my favorite way to give oral meds. The demonstration starts around 1:45. The most important thing is that you try to stay calm, and just go slowly and deliberately with everything you do. Sunny won't like it, but it will help her feel better and she will forgive you. I promise. 

Susanne, would you split the .2ml dose? I've always given Baytril twice a day, but I think mine is the oral suspension, so I'm not sure if that makes it different.


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## srtiels

*and told me to go back in 2 hours so he could do a swab test, etc.($400) *
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Yikes! If this was go a gram stain you were way over charged,...or even if it was for a cultures (which you would NOT have results so fast) the charges for this should have been around $25-35.00.

*"please give 0.2ml by mouth once daily" and the description is "Baytril 50mg/ml injectable"*

OK....I am familair with the 20mg which casn also be used orally. And the dosage of it is .06 per 100 grams *2 times* a day. One time a day, regardless of the higher dosage does not keep therapeutic blood levels in the body. Most meds have a 1/2 life of 12 hours. What this means is that they lose effectiveness and strength therefore they have to be given in another 12 hours to maintain therapeutic blood levels. You might want to ask them to double check the quantity and frequency of the dosage.

* at which time he will also file down her beak a bit because he said it was a tad long but not really bad*

A normal, healthy cockatiel should NEVER have to have their beak filed down. It gets worn down naturally simply by daily activities such as eating. IF a beak shows significant overgrowth this is an alert to a health issues. It could be as simple as the bird cut way back on how much it has eaten for a few days....to health issues such as liver problems.


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## enigma731

srtiels said:


> Most meds have a 1/2 life of 12 hours. W


Injectible meds often have a longer half-life than oral ones do. But I would want to double-check that also.


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## srtiels

enigma731 said:


> Injectible meds often have a longer half-life than oral ones do. But I would want to double-check that also.


--------------------------------

All the Baytril I have ever used was drawn from an injectable bottle into a jar for oral dosage, and it was always 2 times a day to maintain therapeutic blood levels.


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## roxy culver

> Susanne, would you split the .2ml dose? I've always given Baytril twice a day, but I think mine is the oral suspension, so I'm not sure if that makes it different.


I was just gonna ask, because I've always given two doses as well. 



> 1) What probiotics should I give Sunny later? What's the name, where can I get it?


Acidophilus (sp?) can be bought at a place like walgreens and dissolved in one gallon of water (I think its two pills) and given to her daily.


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## Annie

Thanks. Sunny's grandpa is napping right now and when he wakes up we will give her the meds, which gives me just enough time to watch that video and mentally prepare myself.

I just snapped these 2 photos of Sunny so you can see if her beak really needs filing down...I actually also challenged the female vet who said this (that a healthy bird should never need a beak file) but she said "yes but look, a domesticated pet bird can never live a life that is an exact replica of a bird in the wild so every now and then it would still need some extra help". She assured me it would not cost me extra. Please tell me if you think Sunny needs a beak file. If the photos are not clear enough, tell me and I will try to get better pics. (There's a chip at the end of the beak which I only noticed since yesterday---what caused it?)



















Here's the breakdown of my vet bills (before tax):
1 blood collection and processing $44
1 light sedation $26
1 avian comprehensive profile $103.50
1 cytology-fecal $63.50
1 radiograph-small avian $169.21
1 examination/consultation $116.16
1 parasite cen. ZnSO4 & Giardia A $77.30
1 consultation with specialist $79.90
1 Chlamydophila DNA Probe (Swab) $96.50
1 Culture and Sensitivity-Fecal $91.50

So that was how I parted with approx. a thousand dollars within 2 days.  As I said already, next time I will be taking my thousand dollars to another clinic.


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## Annie

enigma731 said:


> Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBUWWqqEyE&feature=related It's my favorite way to give oral meds. The demonstration starts around 1:45. The most important thing is that you try to stay calm, and just go slowly and deliberately with everything you do. Sunny won't like it, but it will help her feel better and she will forgive you. I promise.


Hi, I just watched it. It looks like the doctor is dropping the meds ON the bird's beak so that it slides into the mouth? So I should administer it drop by drop rather than all at once?


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## roxy culver

To be honest her beak looks normal to me. I just got back from visiting family and my father-in-law has a hen that definitely needed her beak trimmed (and I gave him some tips on what he could give her in case it was a liver thing) and Sunny's beak looks nothing like her's.


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## RedQueen

Annie said:


> Here's the breakdown of my vet bills (before tax):
> 1 blood collection and processing $44
> 1 light sedation $26
> 1 avian comprehensive profile $103.50
> 1 cytology-fecal $63.50
> 1 radiograph-small avian $169.21
> 1 examination/consultation $116.16
> 1 parasite cen. ZnSO4 & Giardia A $77.30
> 1 consultation with specialist $79.90
> 1 Chlamydophila DNA Probe (Swab) $96.50
> 1 Culture and Sensitivity-Fecal $91.50
> 
> So that was how I parted with approx. a thousand dollars within 2 days.  As I said already, next time I will be taking my thousand dollars to another clinic.


Isn't "avian comprehensive profile" and "examination/consultation" and "consultation with specialist" the same thing?? Sounds to me like this clinic is crazy over-charging!
To be honest, I think it's most of the clinics in the GTA that do that (I'm from Mississauga). I've never taken Galileo to the vet (haven't had to thankfully!), but I dread the day I may need to because of how much the clinics over charge. I have a friend who took her hedgehog to the vet once, and one exam plus a few tests and some antibiotics came to about $1000 for her as well! I think it's just ridiculous. 
I know we think of the health of our pets first and foremost, regardless of how much it costs to help them, but I think next time I would call the vet first, describe the problem and ask for rates. At least if they give you a consultation rate of ~150, and another clinic says ~80, you know who charges more in general. Not that there's many avian vets to chose from... What is the clinic you went to called? Just for my own reference if Galileo needs a vet. Please PM me if you don't want to post it here.


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## Annie

Well, so we did it. Sunny kept struggling, obviously, so I really don't know how much of the meds actually went in. When she realized what we were doing she closed her beak shut and turned her head away to say "you're NOT getting that into me!!! NEVAR!!!" like a little kid.  Maybe tomorrow we would be able to do it better now that we are experienced. I am now taking her into the shower as some of the meds touched her head and face and I want to wash that off as it is sticky stuff. 

My lifespan has been reduced yet again by a few years this week-end. I'm gonna age before my time. :wacko:


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## Annie

RedQueen said:


> Isn't "avian comprehensive profile" and "examination/consultation" and "consultation with specialist" the same thing?? Sounds to me like this clinic is crazy over-charging!
> To be honest, I think it's most of the clinics in the GTA that do that (I'm from Mississauga). I've never taken Galileo to the vet (haven't had to thankfully!), but I dread the day I may need to because of how much the clinics over charge. I have a friend who took her hedgehog to the vet once, and one exam plus a few tests and some antibiotics came to about $1000 for her as well! I think it's just ridiculous.
> I know we think of the health of our pets first and foremost, regardless of how much it costs to help them, but I think next time I would call the vet first, describe the problem and ask for rates. At least if they give you a consultation rate of ~150, and another clinic says ~80, you know who charges more in general. Not that there's many avian vets to chose from... What is the clinic you went to called? Just for my own reference if Galileo needs a vet. Please PM me if you don't want to post it here.


Hi Redqueen,

No problem. I'd be happy to post it here in case of other members in the area would like to know. The "examination/consultation" was the standard fee charged at the very first initial consultation on Friday with a regular vet (whom I was told was avian-certified). The "consultation with specialist" was the fee charged on Saturday when I was meeting with the avian specialist (whom I told was the specialist). As to the "avian comprehensive profile", I'm not even sure what that is. The clinic is the Kingston Road Animal Hospital. I just did a search on the Internet and I don't see that vet listed as a certified avian vet in Canada so I'm kicking myself now (he said he has been seeing birds for 45 years and has a Masters of Science degree in avian physiology). I should have gone to The Links Road Animal and Bird Clinic. That is where I will go from now on for sure.


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## enigma731

Yes, he is dripping the meds into the side of the beak, with the bird turned a little bit to its side. For me this works best, because if I try to actually put the syringe IN the bird's mouth, the bird inevitably struggles and ends up spitting the meds out in the process. I find that if I can just drip it on the corner of the beak while holding the bird's head, she'll usually end up swallowing it reflexively. It definitely takes practice, so I bet it will seem much easier tomorrow.


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## RedQueen

Annie said:


> Hi Redqueen,
> 
> No problem. I'd be happy to post it here in case of other members in the area would like to know. The "examination/consultation" was the standard fee charged at the very first initial consultation on Friday with a regular vet (whom I was told was avian-certified). The "consultation with specialist" was the fee charged on Saturday when I was meeting with the avian specialist (whom I told was the specialist). As to the "avian comprehensive profile", I'm not even sure what that is. The clinic is the Kingston Road Animal Hospital. I just did a search on the Internet and I don't see that vet listed as a certified avian vet in Canada so I'm kicking myself now (he said he has been seeing birds for 45 years and has a Masters of Science degree in avian physiology). I should have gone to The Links Road Animal and Bird Clinic. That is where I will go from now on for sure.


Hi Annie,
I'm Daria, sorry to not have signed my name 
Thanks for the info on the clinics. I did some searching online just now too, and here's what I found:
At the Links Road Animal & Bird Clinic, Rick Axelson, Hanadie Nur, Gillian Park and Evan Mavromatis are vets registered with the AAV. I didn't find vets registered with the AAV from the Kingston Road Animal Hospital. 

Coincidentally one of my co-worker's father-in-law is a vet, works at Briarwood Animal Hospital, and "specializes" in birds. Well, he's not registered with the AAV. But, my co-worker told me that apparently to be considered officially an "avian specialist" you have to have at least 2 (or 3, I don't remember) scientific publications on avian medicine. But it still doesn't guarantee long term hands-on experience in treating birds. So it's a muddy thing, hard to determine who's the best vet to treat your 'tiel. I think I would trust my co-worker's father-in-law to treat my 'tiel, since he has owned and treated birds for a long time. Yet he's not a "specialist". 
Sorry if this is a bit off topic.


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## RedQueen

Good luck medicating Sunny! Let us know if it goes smoother tomorrow


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## roxy culver

> I think I would trust my co-worker's father-in-law to treat my 'tiel, since he has owned and treated birds for a long time. Yet he's not a "specialist".
> Sorry if this is a bit off topic.


My vet isn't avian certified either but he's the only vet for miles that will see birds and even though he's not certified he's great with my birds and has done an amazing job as my vet.


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## enigma731

I just wanted to add on that note, being AAV certified doesn't always mean that the vet is the best choice to see your bird. Some vets have lots of experience treating birds, but just don't have the official certification because it also has a cost in time and money for them. So sometimes a vet that is not certified but has more experience/a personality that you are comfortable with can be a better choice than one who is certified, but makes decisions that you aren't comfortable with. The vet I currently use is not certified, but I like him better than his certified colleague who won't do anything unless I agree to let him sedate my bird and do a complete blood work panel every year. So, go with your gut, and don't rule out vets that don't show up on the AAV listing. They may still be very good.


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## RedQueen

I completely agree with what you're saying enigma. That's exactly what I was thinking. It's just about finding the right vet. Here's a thread I just found by Solace
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27415&highlight=certified+avian+vets
it has a lot of useful info on this subject.

"If you have a rare species, be fair -- but if they think your cockatiel is a cockatoo, there's a problem" - lol good point.


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## bjknight93

enigma731 said:


> I just wanted to add on that note, being AAV certified doesn't always mean that the vet is the best choice to see your bird. Some vets have lots of experience treating birds, but just don't have the official certification because it also has a cost in time and money for them. So sometimes a vet that is not certified but has more experience/a personality that you are comfortable with can be a better choice than one who is certified, but makes decisions that you aren't comfortable with. The vet I currently use is not certified, but I like him better than his certified colleague who won't do anything unless I agree to let him sedate my bird and do a complete blood work panel every year. So, go with your gut, and don't rule out vets that don't show up on the AAV listing. They may still be very good.


I SO agree with this post! That god-awful vet who I dealth with on Krissi's behalf is certified but I didn't even want him to touch her dead body because I found him so distasteful. I think you must feel out the doctor that you are dealing with before deciding that they are just not right for you though. I went on 2 separate occasions to the guy so it definitely was not that he was having a bad day the first time.

However, Annie, I do think that you were terribly overcharged (even though I do not know of the average veterinary service prices in Canada) and I would also be taking my business elsewhere if I were you.


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## meaggiedear

I would be going back and demanding a Partial refund. The vet I take my cats to never charges a recheck. If someone offered to see your bird Friday and was not able to diagnose the problem, you shouldn't be charged when they asked you to come back to see another vet on Saturday. That is absolutely insane.


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## bjknight93

I wouldn't even be taking her back for a recheck. You can ask them for Sunny's medical record and take that to the other vet. Her medical record should contain all the tests she has had and the results, what medications she has been prescribed..etc.


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## Annie

Hello,

Here's an update on the vet bill issue---I called the clinic just now to inquire about the "consultation with specialist" fee charged on Saturday because while in the shower, I suddenly remembered the girl on the phone telling me twice that I would NOT be charged for seeing the specialist. The receptionist explained that the "consultation with specialist" was actually for the phone call that the vet made to another specialist to talk about Sunny's test results and not for my consultation with him. I explained that on Saturday, the specialist vet just grabbed Sunny, said "come back in 2 hours" and then just left. He did not say one word about what tests he was going to do, how much they would cost, whether I was willing to pay for them, etc. like on Friday when I first went in. So she said she would notify their accounting manager about this and see if they could give me a refund on that consultation fee since nothing was explained to me when it should have been explained. Still I think that's not fair. So *he* makes a phone call to consult another specialist because he's not knowledgeable enough and *I* have to pay for that? Now he's acting like a $#[email protected]^% lawyer????  So next he will give me an invoice for 2 dozen calls he said he made to other specialists on my behalf and charge me another thousand??? Now I am really not happy. Well, what's done is done. I learned my lesson which cost me a thousand dollars. I will definitely not go back there again! Good thing my tax refund money is coming so I will just think of it as coming out of my refund and leave it at that. I have been stressed enough and I will not stress over money.


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## Annie

bjknight93 said:


> I wouldn't even be taking her back for a recheck. You can ask them for Sunny's medical record and take that to the other vet. Her medical record should contain all the tests she has had and the results, what medications she has been prescribed..etc.


I will definitely be asking for copies of everything (they gave me a copy of the blood test results but that was it) and tell them "the other clinic is much closer to my home" and just leave it at that. They will know why, of course, but I will not discuss anything further with them. If they try to ask me I will answer everything with "the other clinic is closer". I don't want to end on a bad note because this is the only 24-hour animal clinic in Toronto and who knows if I'd ever need to rush Sunny there due to an emergency.


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## RedQueen

meaggiedear said:


> I would be going back and demanding a Partial refund. The vet I take my cats to never charges a recheck. If someone offered to see your bird Friday and was not able to diagnose the problem, you shouldn't be charged when they asked you to come back to see another vet on Saturday. That is absolutely insane.


Completely agree.



> I learned my lesson which cost me a thousand dollars. I will definitely not go back there again! Good thing my tax refund money is coming so I will just think of it as coming out of my refund and leave it at that. I have been stressed enough and I will not stress over money.


Good call. At least Sunny is healthy now


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