# Labored Breathing/Possible Air Sac Inflammation



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I swear to god, it's always SOMETHING. I'm starting to feel like I'm cursed.

I think Sunny has a ruptured air sac. Tonight he came out and flew around, and then afterward, he was making a little bit of a whistling noise with his breathing and there was a spot on his shoulder that was bulging. I thought I imagined it, but then it happened a second time.

So...what now? I can only see the bulging when he's breathing hard. He's still acting normal. If I take him back to the vet first thing in the morning, should that be okay? They open at 9am. I don't know that there's much I can do myself right now.


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## leeisme (Feb 4, 2011)

Oh Wow I wish I could suggest something but all I can offer is my well wishes that Sunny is ok.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I have a final tomorrow that I was supposed to study for tonight/tomorrow. I'm honestly worried I might flunk out of my program because of this. I just don't know what to do.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

And I must have done this to him with the blood work. I was the one restraining him.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

He should be OK for now the biggest risk if you don't release the pressure right now is the tear (which caused the rupture in the first place) will get bigger. But if you get him to the vet in the morning he should be OK.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The weird thing is that it's not staying inflated. It was definitely over-inflating when he was breathing hard, but there's no air bubble there now (that I can see). It seems exactly like this thread: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=10394&highlight=ruptured

What would cause an air sac to over-inflate, but not stay that way?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm so sorry Michelle; at least this is not life threatening. 

Do you feel comfortable following Susanne's instructions? Since it deflates itself, I would just wrap his neck in vet wrap and leave it wrapped for a while and then remove it and see if it has healed itself. I don't think you need to rush him to the vet for this one and you should not be so stressed about it. I wish you luck. 

Go take a hot bath and relax.

As to the reason it is deflating on its own, my only guess could be that there is a pin point hole somewhere for the air to escape.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

It says in that thread that he could've stressed out and overinflated his crop...maybe after the vets? Since its not constant it could be related to his allergies as it was with that bird in the other thread.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't feel comfortable wrapping it because I can't see what area was affected anymore, and his crop is very full right now -- I don't want to cause aspiration from that. I think I'm just going to leave him alone for tonight and take him in tomorrow morning. I was supposed to call for the consult about the antihistamines anyway. The thing is, if I don't take him tomorrow, I can't until next Wednesday, and I don't want to just be worrying the whole time. I pretty much have no choice but to fail my exam at this point, though. I haven't even started studying. Not that that's important right now.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Oh no! I'm so sorry things keep happening. I hope Sunny is okay!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I just have a terrible feeling about this. I agree it's probably not life-threatening right now, but after the blood results I was all ready to be relieved and declare him healthy except for allergies. Now I'm thinking we were wrong, and this really is the beginning of a steep decline.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I don't know...that thread did mention allergies and that girl's bird's symptoms went away after she removed the sheet. Anything like that you can think of?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

No. I have horrible allergies myself, so I think our environment is about as allergy-free as possible. But maybe if we put him on allergy meds, it would lessen the strain on his system. I just don't know. Things like this make me feel like I have to be in a panic about them all the time, because the SECOND I start feeling good, something horrible happens. (I know it doesn't really work like that, but that's how I'm feeling emotionally right now.)


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I really think you need to take a step back and think about how this is affecting Sunny..it is not hurting him, it won't kill him, and it is fixable with time. I really think you should look at this that way. If I were in your situation, I would get some vet wrap and when you see it happen again you'll know what area to focus on. If you only wrap it loosely, it will not aspirate him and vet wrap is designed to stretch a little so a full crop will not hurt him if it is not wrapped extremely tight.

I know you and I both worry about our birds a little more than we should, but there are certain times that we need to analyze everything and _just_ take a deep breath. You've got to balance everything: your school, work, birds, and worrying about them.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

If there was *any way* I could put you at ease, I would do it for ya. I know you're going through an extremely stressful time and all of this piled together is really tough.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well it hasn't happened since I posted this thread, so I think I'm just going to put him to bed now. I wouldn't want to wrap it right before bed anyway, because I'd be afraid he'd freak with it on in the dark. Do you guys all think that I shouldn't take him in tomorrow morning? I don't have anything until my final at 4 tomorrow. I was planning to use that time to study, but I could take him instead. Friday I won't be home at all, so my concern is that if I miss the window to take him and then it gets bad again, that's a problem.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I would say if you don't notice it again then to not take him to the vet.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I think you should calm down and focus on studying. I know it'll be tough to do while you're worrying about him, but I wouldn't take him unless he constantly had an inflated neck; as long as it is not inflated it is not causing any damage. Maybe you should restrict his flying to give it a chance to heal up on its own.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He did seem a bit sleepier than usual today on the bird cam. But I assumed that was just because yesterday was super stressful. I don't know. Maybe I'll call and see what the vet thinks first thing, then decide.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> I think you should calm down and focus on studying. I know it'll be tough to do while you're worrying about him, but I wouldn't take him unless he constantly had an inflated neck; as long as it is not inflated it is not causing any damage. Maybe you should restrict his flying to give it a chance to heal up on its own.


I'm actually wondering if I should clip him, until we get his respiratory symptoms under control.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

(((Hugs)))..do what you need to do, Michelle.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

I couldn't imagine the stress of a sick bird on top of school stress in addition to a broken dishwasher! Geez, what timing! I will be thinking of you and Sunny. And little Roo too. (((hugs)))


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

You don't think clipping him would stress him out do you?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The other thing is that he was making a very soft clicking noise when the inflating was happening. I assume that was related to the air sac being over-inflated, because it stopped when the bulging went down. Does that change anything as far as taking him in, though?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Was he panting during this time? Sometimes I think the birds bob their tongues on the tops of their beaks making what sounds like a "clicking" noise.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I honestly don't know. I was too focused on the bulging neck. He WAS breathing hard. I mean...normally I'd think clicking = respiratory problem, but we JUST established that his airway isn't inflamed and he has no elevated white count, so...yeah.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I really think you should hold off on rushing him up there. Or at least talk to the vet on the phone about it before making your decision.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah, I will talk to him on the phone. Blah.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The thing is...Sunny was perfectly fine for 18 years while my parents basically ignored him. I mean, they took care of him, but they didn't monitor or worry about his health. Now I get him, and within 3 months, everything in the world goes wrong. Same with Roo, when I adopted her. It's hard to believe I don't have something to do with that.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

It is more likely that you are such a good tiel mommy that you *notice* the things that are wrong, not that you are the cause. Don't beat yourself up over it, you go above and beyond for your little ones.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

But am I making it worse by noticing? For example, whatever is going on with the air sac is probably the result of trauma during the blood draw yesterday. If I'd just ignored all the sneezing like my parents would have, that never would have happened. I don't know. It's just hard to tell whether I'm making things worse by doing too much.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Yeah, I can understand why you would think that. But if you just ignored the problems and something bad happened you would beat yourself up over that too. At least you can say you have done everything you can to ensure the health of your birds.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I agree, you just said they weren't monitoring his health..i think you are just so in tune to what's best for them it makes you worry.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Can anyone weigh in on what would cause the overinflation to suddenly start happening when he's breathing hard? Susanne? 

It never did before, including when he was panting right after the blood draw on Tuesday. But is it likely to be the result of trauma from that anyway, like a bruise or a small tear in the air sac? Or is it more likely to be something unrelated, and this is just another clue to what is ultimately making him sick? I just have NEVER seen/heard of this before, and I hate the idea of him having trouble breathing.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay, just got off the phone with the vet. He thinks this is some form of airsacculitis, but that it probably isn't infectious, because we see absolutely no signs of an elevated immune response in the bloodwork. So we are going to continue on the assumption that this is a chronic allergy/inflammatory response, possibly exacerbated by the stress of the blood draw. We're going to put Sunny on low dose steroids for a week, and see how things go from there. Basically it sounds like either this is something that can be managed with steroids/antihistamines, or it's something untreatable that's going to kill him, and we'll only find out which by waiting and hoping for the best.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Hoping for the best for you and Sunny!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I hope he heals up fine, fingers crossed for the best. :flowers:


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks. He has been a tough guy his whole life, so hopefully that isn't about to change. I am a little concerned that this IS an infection, but so advanced that his immune system isn't responding anymore. But, my vet firmly believes that we'd see other symptoms, like weight loss, if that were the case. So....lots of fingers crossed.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I agree that during *some point* of the infection you would have seen weight loss unless he had some kind of immunodeficiency that just ignored all pathogens. If he goes (and I don't think he will just yet), he would have lived a wonderful life and made it to a great ripe age...and he would've had an awesome owner through it all. He knows everything you put him through is for his best interests and that you really genuinely care for him..and I'll bet he feels the exact same for you.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, and I think if he were immunodeficient, this wouldn't have been going on for 8 months, because it would have just killed him. 

I know that he's had a great life and knows that he's loved, and all of that. I'm just really not ready to deal with him being in decline. Maybe that's selfish of me. There's also the fact that I don't think Roo will cope at all with going back to being an only-bird after the whole ordeal with her not eating when alone. I almost feel worse for her about this whole thing than I do for myself.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well I would say get her another friend in that case, but I don't know if that would be a good idea for you until you finish with schooling.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> Well I would say get her another friend in that case, but I don't know if that would be a good idea for you until you finish with schooling.


I think having two is better with school, honestly. Because if I have just one, I feel horrible about having to work 10 hours a day. And there's no way I'm letting Roo go anywhere, so I think I'm pretty well stuck with having two for now. Not that I mind (when they're healthy).


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm coming to this thread kind of late. I'm so sorry you had such a scary evening. I would have been completely freaked out. I'm glad that it sounds like it's something treatable- stay optimistic. But for the sneezying, etc. Sunny isn't showing other signs of being sick. He's enjoying life with you and Roo. Try not to worry about the future and just enjoy him every day.  None of us know what will happen tomorrow.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Just gave the first dose of prednisone and he REALLY hated it. Not sure how much he actually got, but I didn't want to restrain him for too long in case there is an injury from being restrained in the first place. Here's hoping it helps.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

He'll give up the fight after a few doses (in my experience).


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well he didn't choke or pant after it, so that much was a success. Now he's inside of a paper bag, purring LOL. I think he definitely seems better than last night, so fingers crossed the improvement continues.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

prednisone tastes like crap. i'd be fighting you if i were him too. lol.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

LOL I bet it does! He actually sort of made this gagging motion when I put it back in his cage, like "ack, get it off my tongue!"


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Don't you wish birds could take pills! Things would be so much easier!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

For real. >.< I also wish Sunny wasn't too smart to take his meds in a treat of some kind.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

enigma731 said:


> For real. >.< I also wish Sunny wasn't too smart to take his meds in a treat of some kind.


you wouldn't love him as much if he was dumb.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

LOL so true. I do have tough standards when it comes to the men in my life.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

My vet gave me an info sheet that suggested getting your tiel used to eating little pieces of pound cake so that when you had to give your tiel meds you could soak it in the pound cake. I was a little surprised at the suggestion because of the sugar, etc. but in a way it makes sense. I haven't tried it though.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I think that would be difficult to do with a nasty tasting medicine..it's worth a shot, but this is the old man who won't eat bread when there is a fine and tasteless powder on top.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sunny's symptoms are a little worse today. For the past few hours he's occasionally been clicking/snorting/bulging in the neck, although it isn't constant. We're not sure whether this is because he got meds in his nose when I gave them this morning and irritated himself, or if his overall condition is becoming more severe.  I called the vet and he said to give the prednisone some more time to work. Please keep sending good thoughts.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Good thoughts for sunny going your way!


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

More good thoughts and (((hugs)))!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Oh I'm so sorry Michelle! I'll be thinking of the 3 of you.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He seems a little better since I've had him out playing. Not sure if that's the meds kicking in, or if he's just hiding it better. 

I'm already terrified of giving him his night dose, though.  He got SO stressed this morning I was afraid he was going to go into respiratory failure (although I also probably overreacted because I'm worried about him). I think I will try to give him some on a bit of bread or something. It probably won't work, but it's worth a try, right? I wish they had the equivalent of pill pockets for bird meds.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You might phone your vet and ask if the meds can be given via a nebulizer. If so he can write a script that can be taken to a human pharmacy for the equipment and meds, with instructions for particle size and frequencies of dosing.

This would be less stressful to you and Sunny.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't think prednisone can be nebulized, but I am planning to call and ask later if there are any alternatives/ways we can make it less stressful. He wanted me to check back in around 3 and tell him if the beak breathing had stopped. Right now Sunny hasn't done it in a little over an hour, so hopefully that's a good sign.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Another thought....keep track of his weight,. A weight gain could mean fluid retention. When I had my collapsed lung, and in the hospital, I was put on this medication and had some serious side effects. All fluids taken in (by IV) and orally drank were absorbed in my body, specifically around the lungs (edema) and then I had to have taps to remove the fluids and aggressive diuretics. Ask the vet as to any side effects.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I've taken prednisone before too, so I had this discussion with him yesterday.  He said the dose is extremely low and shouldn't cause noticeable side effects apart from maybe some watery droppings. Also, since the blood work showed that his organ function is excellent, he should be able to handle it. Our phone consult yesterday was about 40 minutes long, so we definitely thought through this decision. Thanks for the heads up.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

By the way, we're only doing 5 days of it and then switching to antihistamines. We won't even continue past the weekend if it isn't noticeably helping. Right now I think it IS starting to help, though, as long as I can get it to him without him stressing so much.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well now Sunny is having black (super dark green) droppings. I don't even know anymore. Waiting for the vet to call back again.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Til the vet calls back smear some of the dark poops on a piece of white paper to hold up to the light to make sure it is feces and no blood. Has he been eating and drinking his normal amount today?

((((HUGS))))


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's green, I already checked. I thought he was eating, but I guess not. The vet is taking him off the steroid and starting an antibiotic again. I think we're blindly guessing now and I hate it.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If he is going to switch to anitibiotics ask about nebulizing. It would be the less stressful way to go, and will effectively penetrate/treat the air sacs and repiratory system.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Is there anything that would cause the dark droppings besides not eating? Because he IS eating.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Now I'm afraid of what will happen if he does have internal bleeding and I'm just missing it and don't insist that the vet examines him again. The smear looks dark green/just slightly brown, but his droppings are normally brown from eating pellets, so I don't THINK it's blood. But the whole thing is just making me feel terrible.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I am so sorry. Can the vet just test a sample of the droppings to make sure there's no blood without actually having to take Sunny back in? (Hugs.)


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know, but I don't have a sample to take, and I have to head over there right now to get the meds. Otherwise I won't get there before they close. I think I'm just stuck hoping for the best at this point.  And at some point I seriously need to start studying for my finals on Monday, or I really might fail the classes. Right now I literally want to crawl in a hole and die.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Prednisone can cause darker stools.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Cryren8972 said:


> Prednisone can cause darker stools.


Because of bleeding, or just as a side effect? And have you observed this in birds?


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

I'm looking into birds now...maybe I will find something.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

From what I'm reading thus far, prednisone is not recommended for birds at all. So I'm not really finding information on side effects.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well that makes me feel fantastic about this whole thing. >.< He only had one .05ml dose. Could it really do that much harm? Ugh.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

OK, here is what I'm reading, and this may be a long shot, but maybe worth looking into further. Prednisone can irritate an ulcer, hence why it can cause dark stools from time to time. A gastric ulcer can cause breathing issues. Like I said...complete long shot, but I know from personal experience that when my acid reflux acts up, I have a more difficult time breathing. 

I wouldn't jump the gun, but maybe read up on symptoms tonight and see if they match up. Try treating holistically if you can, as long as he doesn't show signs of getting worse.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh, and my acid reflux causes me to sneeze too. =)


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Tell the vet to check for H. pylori. It's found in birds from time to time normally, but he should know what a normal amount should be. That way, maybe you can just take a fecal slide in and have him test without stressing Sunny with any more visits. Once again, long shot, but H. pylori can cause stomach ulcers in humans and birds alike.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, I went to pick up the meds and ended up having a long talk with the vet. We decided we're going to stop all treatment for the weekend and just see what happens. Four days ago, Sunny was healthy but sneezy. Now it seems like everything we do makes things worse. So we're going to see if he can get back to baseline if we just leave him alone. 

The vet did say an ulcer was a possibility, but that it was very unlikely with only one dose, and especially considering that the droppings appear dark green, not bloody. He also had a full fecal exam three days ago, so I sort of doubt there's a bacteria there that we didn't detect, although I will certainly pursue what you're saying if he's not any better come Monday. 

Now everyone please cross your fingers that he doesn't get any worse between now and then, because I seriously feel like I am on the verge of losing my mind.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

And I'm happy to report that his latest dropping was much lighter. Not normal, but not super dark, either. So I'm thinking the stress from the prednisone this morning just put him off his appetite for a while. He's going to get lots of treats tonight.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*And I'm happy to report that his latest dropping was much lighter.*
------------------------------

Whew!....That IS good news


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Whew!....That IS good news


They're now completely back to normal, so I think we can rule out actual GI damage. I'm not putting him back on that particular med, though. I gave him a bowl with just nutriberries (his favorite) tonight and he ate a bunch of it. He is still sneezy and still has a very slight/slow tail bob, but that's not new. We are still going to discuss antihistamines/nebulized meds, but first we want to give him a chance to recover from whatever happened today. I also have Baytril here, in case he starts to show more serious deterioration.

Susanne, have you ever had a bird with a chronic slow tail bob that didn't have a serious problem? I know you posted a long time ago that some amount of movement of the tail is normal, but this is noticeably different from Roo's breathing at rest. Have you ever observed that varying with age? Or by individual bird? I keep questioning whether there's actually anything to treat here, or if we're just making things worse by trying.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Susanne, have you ever had a bird with a chronic slow tail bob that didn't have a serious problem?*
----------------------------------

My first thought is if it is recent or if he has always had this? Given his age, it could be age related, especially if you have seen some other gradually changes such as how fast his movements are....have they slowed down. When is the bobbing most noticeable....all the time or just when he exerts himself?

Some of my older birds (they were in their mid to late 20's) did develop a more noticeable tail bob as they got older.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know if he's always had it, but it's been there for at least the past 18 months. He has definitely slowed down from when he was younger, and that started years ago, before I left for college. I wouldn't say that he's frail or inactive, but you can tell he's older, especially in comparison to Roo. The tail bob is all the time, but it's more noticeable after he exerts himself.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Ok....from what you are saying it could be just age related and not health related considering his recent vet visits and tests have been fine. If your vet has other clients that have elderly birds maybe he can take note of if they also have a more noticeable tail bob versus a younger bird.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The only thing I really find alarming at this point is the bulging cervical air sac, which did happen again today when he got the meds in his nose. But that could still be an injury/stress-related, and we just haven't let it heal yet since we keep bothering him with all the meds. I'm not sure if it's actually a problem, since it doesn't happen EVERY time he exerts himself, and it only happens for a few seconds at a time.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Ok....from what you are saying it could be just age related and not health related considering his recent vet visits and tests have been fine. If your vet has other clients that have elderly birds maybe he can take note of if they also have a more noticeable tail bob versus a younger bird.


Sunny is the oldest 'tiel the practice has seen, he told me today. That makes me sad for the care other people's birds are getting.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Hmmmm....I know several locals that have tiels in their late 20's, and a few in the early 30's and had a need to be seen a vet. It could be there are older birds around, and they have just never been brought in to a vet. The quality of tiels in a location is also related to the quality of breeders. Good conscientious breeders tend to produce birds that are less prone to health issues than an inexperienced or random breeder.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Alabama seems to be a particularly crappy area for bird ownership. I have no idea why. But there are no bird clubs, we never have bird shows here, and most of the pet stores don't even sell live birds or bird supplies. There is only one bird breeder who regularly advertises in the entire state, and they don't even breed 'tiels. So it's entirely possible that the quality of birds here just is not good in general.

ETA: What do you make of the intermittently bulging air sac? What would you do about that if it were your bird?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I just got an inquiry from AL for a breeding pair of mousebirds....so soon there will be mousebirds in AL...LOL I think there are more softbill breeders your way than hookbill breeders.

I've seen the bulging air sacs on occasion when I had my older birds. It was more during the warmer weather than cooler weather, and since they were also in flights it could happen after a major scare/panic. If the bird stays calm with minimal handling for several days it is self-healing.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> I just got an inquiry from AL for a breeding pair of mousebirds....so soon there will be mousebirds in AL...LOL I think there are more softbill breeders your way than hookbill breeders.


Ooh, are they for the zoo? Or just for private ownership? It's not that people DON'T own birds here, it just seems like 'tiels are not all that popular to sell/breed. That was partly how I ended up going all the way to Georgia to get Roo, although the bigger part of it was just that I fell in love with her in particular.



> I've seen the bulging air sacs on occasion when I had my older birds. It was more during the warmer weather than cooler weather, and since they were also in flights it could happen after a major scare/panic. If the bird stays calm with minimal handling for several days it is self-healing.


Okay, so you think this is still more likely to be from restraining him for the blood draw? That would make sense, since it happened the day after that, and I only see the bulging for a few seconds at a time when he gets stressed. For example, today he was getting frisky with a toy in his cage, and that definitely made him breathe hard, but there was no bulging. There was, however, bulging after I gave him the med that he reacted badly to. So to me, it seems like stress is more the trigger than just plain exertion. But I will definitely be trying to keep him as calm as possible this weekend, especially now that I don't have to give him meds. 

It is very comforting to me that you have at least seen it before, since I hadn't been able to find ANY other reference to a type of problem like that.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The mousebirds are for a private person/breeder. They are Blue-Napes and if handfed are true velcro birds. 

It sounds like the restraint has been the trigger. I have had slightly ruptured air sacs from netting birds....especially if the rim of the net touched their neck. I had one hen that I had a hard time netting, and caught her against the wire partially in and out of the net. Where the net was across her body tore an abdominal air sac and her side and back ballooned up and bulged in and out like a bellows. In all instance it self healed in a week or so. 

Do a forum search on Hunchback tiels. Tielfan posted some pix's of a couple males that looked like hunchbacks from the torn abdominal and cervical (neck) air sacs. I'm wondering if they ever healed....maybe if she sees this she can update.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Huh, interesting. I'm willing to bet I inadvertently hurt him while restraining him for the blood draw.  It took a good 15 minutes, and he kept struggling to get his wings free, so I was definitely holding him across the shoulders. I do know how to restrain a bird properly, but I was nervous and he was nervous and it just was not a good situation.  Is the soft clicking normal with the bulging air sacs? I'm not sure whether that's because of the inflammation in his airway or not.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Is the soft clicking normal with the bulging air sacs? *
---------------------------
Yes....sometimes it can also sound like you are crushing and rolling cellophane between your hands.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay, I found that thread. Interesting. It does seem like whatever is going on with Sunny is something similar, because it looks over-inflated momentarily, but he doesn't need help to deflate it again. Weird. I wonder if this is some bird physiology that we just don't have well-documented yet.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Yes....sometimes it can also sound like you are crushing and rolling cellophane between your hands.


Yes, that's a great description of it!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Sometimes I will hear that sound when I pick up a bird lower around the shoulders and it will freak me out....though they have nothing wrong with them. It always reminds me of static or crinkling cellophane.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Hmmm...okay, well. I guess for now let's go with the theory that there's actually nothing wrong with him except stress/possible allergies. I like that. Now everyone please send him vibes to not do anything alarming at least until finals are over, okay?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I guess it's also possible that he got himself in the neck with a nail. His toenails are really long right now, and he is molting, so he's scratching a lot. They need to be trimmed, but I haven't wanted to since he's been having so many stress/restraint issues.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Just wanted to let you know that my Sunny and I are sending you and Sunny positive thoughts. Try to relax and good luck with your finals.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sunny purred at me when I uncovered him this morning. Hopefully that's a good sign LOL


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*I guess it's also possible that he got himself in the neck with a nail. His toenails are really long right now, and he is molting, *
----------------------------------

Both are a real possibility. Good thinking. I have had self-inflicted injuries from toenails. Thinking back once with a weaning baby and it was the air sac, and several times either torn nares, or damaged conjunctiva tissue. And while molting if he has alot of powder down feathers this can be an irritant to the respiratory system.

Now, relax....study and pass with flying colors (((HUGS))))


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, now Sunny is doing some minimal beak breathing again. He's still very active and it's far from every breath, but I'm not sure if I should start the antibiotic or give it some more time. Thoughts? I'm not going to take him back to the vet today. I don't think they can do anything further, and if he's going to go downhill, I'd rather it be here with me.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Just a few thoughts. it may be nothing, and it also may not be bacteria or health related. Just thinking....and have no basis from fact.....but with age his body and organs may not be as efficient. Such as the liver in converting vitamin A from food sources. Have you tried the Beta carotene or hibiscus tea or dried leaves with him yet? Both are supportive or respiratory and mucous membranes


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I couldn't get him to take them.  This started after preening, so I decided to wait a few hours and see if he works it out on his own. Maybe he just inhaled some of his own dander. At what point do you think I should start the Baytril if it doesn't stop? Ugh. This is so disconcerting, but he really doesn't seem to be distressed by it, and the last thing I want to do is make things worse.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...deep breathe, because he can pick up on your anxiety. Go across the room or another room, and study or appear relaxed to him. Give it a few hows to see if the breathing settles down.

I am NOT saying you are the cause, simply that he may be a very sensitive bird and picks up on stress and anxiety easily.

And if the air sac was slightly torn it could be that it may not totally heal. It would not inflate deflate if there was a pin point gap, but would account for a slight noise and maybe more exertion to breathe. 

Again....just thinking aloud... It's been so long since I had actively watched my birds and can't see him so it is only thinking aloud.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

No, I totally understand what you're saying. It did stop. It's just concerning to me that he still seems to be developing new symptoms, plus I'm worried about the possibility that he actually did aspirate some of the prednisone, which would then put him at risk for infection. But I think as long as the symptom isn't happening consistently, I'm going to try to just let him be and not stress him. I have the Baytril here, so I can start it whenever I feel it's needed. But I would like to try to avoid it in case he does have an injury that's healing. 

Another thing: He wasn't just making a noise, he was actually opening his beak a little ways when he was doing the weird breathing. Not EVERY breath, so he clearly COULD breathe though his nose, but he would do a few breaths normally and then a tiny little gasp, then a few breaths normally, etc. I have no idea what that's about, but misting him very lightly seemed to make it stop.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*plus I'm worried about the possibility that he actually did aspirate some of the prednisone, which would then put him at risk for infection.*
-----------------------

OK...twe options...1...go to a Whole Foods store and see if they have Carotene in capsule form. If he does not want to eat it top dressed on his food, then there is Plan B. if he likes spray millet, lightly mist it and dust it with the Carotene, let dry and then give it to him. 2...Ask you vet to give him, or show you how to give, a multi-vitamin shot that does contain Vitamin A.

*so he clearly COULD breathe though his nose, but he would do a few breaths normally and then a tiny little gasp,*

Just some thoughts, since misting seemed to help....What is the humidity levels in the room? Running a humidifier may help with breathing. Also, from molting he could have a little dander in the sinus cavities....how do the nares look?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Is there anything vitamin-A rich I could give him that's less specialized? My Whole Foods is an hour away and didn't have carotene capsules the last time I checked. And there isn't an avian vet in this weekend, so I think if I took him in, they'd tell me to just give the Baytril instead of the vitamins. He seems totally fine now, btw, I'm just unnerved as usual. I don't know exact humidity level, but it's Alabama in the summer -- not dry by any means. I'm thinking it was more of a dander/dust issue than a dryness issue. His nares look fine, but of course he also seems fine now, so I don't think that tells me much.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You can go to: www.weather.com to look up your local temps and humidity levels.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Right, but presumably it would be lower inside since I'm running AC? It's 55% outside today.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, Sunny was completely back to normal for the rest of the day/evening. So I'm really not sure what to make of it. I would like to think that if he were coming down with a bacterial infection this morning, he'd have more consistent symptoms by now. But I'll still be watching him like a hawk tomorrow, and I do have Baytril here that I can start at any time. 

Also, Susanne, I couldn't find carotene at any of the pharmacies here, and Whole Foods told me on the phone that they don't have it. What would be the next best thing I can get OTC?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I ordered mine online, this is what I got:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00020HZQA/ref=mp_s_a_9?qid=1336279094&sr=8-9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dry-Natural...525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebd400add


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Right, but I wouldn't be able to get it until at least Tuesday, which kind of negates giving it to counter the possible aspiration yesterday morning. I am going to order it, though.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It will help him either way. I think it was only about $10 with shipping. I would say one-day ship, but shipping alone would cost $20 which I think is pretty ridiculous.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah, I'm going to order it just in case this actually is a deficiency causing his sneezing. But I have to admit, I'm getting more and more convinced it's allergies/behavioral. Because it really ONLY happens when he's preening or after he's been asleep with his head turned back. He doesn't sneeze, like, while he's eating or while he's playing or while he's singing to me. You'd think if it were a disease process, it would be consistent, right? So...that's interesting. I may try to start keeping an actual log of it.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Haha, for some reason that sounds funny..I can just picture a log entitled "Sunny's Sneezing Schedule." LOL all organized and detailed. 

But aside from that, it's a good idea so you can either rule out his behavioral schedule, or add it to the list of possibilities.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, it would go nicely beside Roo's weight/poop log from when she was having issues last semester.  (Sometimes I swear the maintenance people at my apartment complex must think I am certifiable.)


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Poop log? Is this complete with pictures?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yes. At the time I was tracking the color of her urates.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay, so I ended up ordering this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001VV7WI/ref=cm_sw_r_fa_asp_obedD.1APDYT9 

and this: http://www.amazon.com/Davidsons-Tea...TIZA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336322615&sr=8-1

Does the tea look like it should be safe to give him? If not I'll drink it myself.  Also, if I want to try and treat his breathing problems naturally, is there anything else I should get? Right now I'm thinking vitamin-A rich supplements and lots of frequent misting. He seems perfectly normal again this morning, and I'm hoping it'll just stay that way.

Do you think it would also be worth giving him something for stress, like brewer's yeast or chamomile? And also, is there anything natural that's also anti-inflammatory? I'm not saying we're never going to try prescription meds again, but right now I would rather try supplements that are less likely to stress him/cause bad side effects.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

P.S. DISCLAIMER Just in case anyone reads this in the future -- I absolutely WOULD NOT EVER advocate waiting to check out symptoms like gasping, beak breathing, or sounding congested. The ONLY reason I'm trying alternative treatments now is because we have already ruled out infection, and Sunny has had these symptoms for 8+ months without responding well to conventional treatment OR showing signs of rapid deterioration.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes....the Carotene is the one I use. You can prick a hole in the end of the capsule, and squeeze the capsule to lightly spray dust his food. Just close the end with some scotch tape. Most capsules, either opened or punctured, even when stored in a container will lump up inside the capsule within 2 days. So effective use time per capsule is fine as long as the powder is still in loose unclumped form. 

They also have teabags listed: http://www.amazon.com/Celebration-Herbals-Hibiscus-Tea-Bags/dp/B000HB9TLI/ref=pd_sim_gro_24

I learned with birds to use tea in tea bag form. A teabag is soothing and good for inflamed eyes.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Yes....the Carotene is the one I use. You can prick a hole in the end of the capsule, and squeeze the capsule to lightly spray dust his food. Just close the end with some scotch tape. Most capsules, either opened or punctured, even when stored in a container will lump up inside the capsule within 2 days. So effective use time per capsule is fine as long as the powder is still in loose unclumped form.
> 
> They also have teabags listed: http://www.amazon.com/Celebration-Herbals-Hibiscus-Tea-Bags/dp/B000HB9TLI/ref=pd_sim_gro_24
> 
> I learned with birds to use tea in tea bag form. A teabag is soothing and good for inflamed eyes.


I saw those, but they have other things in them besides just hibiscus. So I chose the one I did because it says it's pure hibiscus and organic. Do you think I should order the bags instead, though?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

When I used the carotene with Krissi, I just bent the capsule in the middle and popped it open. Then I dumped it on a plate, misted a sprig of millet, and "painted" it onto the millet with a cheap and unused make-up brush. Then I let it dry and hung it in her cage. I did the same with the brewer's yeast.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That's a good idea. Thanks.  Another thing my vet had suggested is that it may be helpful to steam him in the bathroom for a few minutes every day, since this is likely to be related to inflammatory particles in his air sacs. My pet theory is that this is related to the fact that my parents (well, and I did too) let him spend like 10 years shredding cereal boxes that were hung from the top of his cage. So now I wonder if he has something like a factory worker's inflammatory lung disease from all of the dust he's inhaled over time. I know that's really un-scientific, but it would account for his symptoms.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*10 years shredding cereal boxes that were hung from the top of his cage. *
---------------------------------

Un-scientific or not, this very well could be the root of the problem. Good thinking again. Paper products consist of very fine hairlike (only smaller/microscopic) fibers that can get into the sinus cavitys and air sacs.

I have to look thru my herb books but herbs that act as an anti-inflammatory are: 

*Astragalus* immunostimulant, antibacterial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory, and diuretic

*Chamomile* topically it can help reduce inflammation

*Celery leaves, stalks, seeds* anti-inflammatory, diuretic, aphrodisiac

*Goldenseal* for inflammation of mucous membranes 

These are just a few....


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It's possible; I wonder if that would show up on x-ray. But then if stuff showed up in his lungs on x-ray you might worry what else that could be.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I wish we had been smarter about what we let him play with, but at the time we didn't know any better.  He and Roo are not allowed to have cardboard anymore. Well, she's never been allowed to have it. I took his away last summer when he was initially treated for allergies, but then I think my family started giving it to him again after I moved and before I brought him here. >.< 

From what you listed, it sounds like Goldenseal might be the most helpful for an air sac problem. How would you recommend giving it to him?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> It's possible; I wonder if that would show up on x-ray. But then if stuff showed up in his lungs on x-ray you might worry what else that could be.


We've talked several times about xray, and basically the vet feels that it would just show inflammation or no inflammation. The resolution isn't good enough to really determine what's causing the opacity of it's there. And we basically KNOW the inflammation is there from his symptoms. So it would be a lot of risk for not much benefit.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*It's possible; I wonder if that would show up on x-ray*

Here is a pix of a ruptured air sac for illustration only. The inside of the air sac is sticky, which is how the air sac can self-heal, if when deflated the edges can touch and adhere together. But in being sticky (lack of a better word) fine fibers can adhere to the inside of the sacs, which would thicken the tissue and also contribute to a slight crackling sound when restrained and breathing. BUT they would show up as a shadow on the air sacs with X-ray.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> BUT they would show up as a shadow on the air sacs with X-ray.


Unfortunately, so would fungal plaques, scarring from bacteria, or inflammation from allergies. It all looks the same. I asked about this specifically when I was there on Friday.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*From what you listed, it sounds like Goldenseal might be the most helpful for an air sac problem. How would you recommend giving it to him?*

My favorite route of treatment has always been with a herbal extract (non-alcohol) in the water, 10 drops to 8 oz, change 2-3 times a day for 7-10 days.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

srtiels said:


> *From what you listed, it sounds like Goldenseal might be the most helpful for an air sac problem. How would you recommend giving it to him?*
> 
> My favorite route of treatment has always been with a herbal extract (non-alcohol) in the water, 10 drops to 8 oz, change 2-3 times a day for 7-10 days.


Okay. And is this a pharmacy item, or another one that I should order? Can it be given at the same time as the carotene and hibiscus?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You can get the extract at most health food stores or on-line. And yes you can give it while giving the carotene and hibiscus.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay, so he just did the clicking/bulging air sac thing again for a few minutes, and I watched him really closely this time. He was preening for a while, sneezed a few times (while scratching his nose) and then was doing the clicking for maybe 30-45 seconds, and I could see the air sac in his neck bulging. Then he scratched his nose, sneezed a few more times, did some yawning/neck stretching, and now is breathing normally again. The whole thing seemed very deliberate. Is it possible whatever this is, that it's actually something he's doing to clear his airway? It's very weird, but he just doesn't even seem to care that it's going on. Now he's back to playing in his paper bag.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* Is it possible whatever this is, that it's actually something he's doing to clear his airway? It's very weird,*
-------------------------------------------
Yes....

a
And a thought just ran thru my mind, which you'll cringe at, but something to think about once all your finals are done....Has he ever had a sinus flush? This may help if he has old fibers remaining inside his sinuses.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

No, he hasn't. I've been debating that, actually. I may ask for it next time we go back for a recheck. I'm not sure when that will be, hopefully mid-week sometime. I am still debating whether to start him on Baytril, but I just so much doubt that this is an infection with the bloodwork and the way his symptoms come and go.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I also hate that I keep thinking these symptoms are gone, and then they come back again.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sunny woke up with the clicky breathing this morning, but it seems better now. I'm hoping he just needed to clear his airway after sleeping. We have an appointment tomorrow afternoon to see the senior vet at the practice, who I don't really like personally, but who is arguably much more experienced. Here's hoping he can give us some answers, and not just scare me by listing every horrible thing it could possibly be like he usually does. Now everyone tell Sunny that he's not allowed to scare me between now and then, because I have two exams I HAVE TO take and do well on.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Sunny do not scare Momma today!  Good luck with your exams and sending good thoughts to you and Sunny.

And maybe this is way off base- but I saw in one of your posts that you've been running the AC (of course because you live where it's hot). We just turned our AC on a couple days ago and I noticed my Sunny's nostrils turned red again. They're better now but do you think the air conditioning could have anything to do with it? Again, it may be a dumb suggestion but like I said, I thought of it because it seems to at least initially affect Sunny when we turn it on.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's a good thought, but I've had my AC on since March. So I don't really think so. The sneezing isn't what's bothering me at this point, it's the clicking/bulging air sac thing he does. That seemed to start right after the blood draw last week, but I'm not sure why it hasn't healed yet if it was an injury. I'm more worried that it's a new symptom of whatever he has. Blah.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Hopefully, the vet tomorrow can help figure things out. But if Sunny seems happy and is purring (I love when they purr), he must at least be feeling okay. So try not to stress too much about it for now.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah, he still seems happy. It's just scary because I have finals tonight and tomorrow and I CANNOT do anything for him before tomorrow afternoon without getting kicked out of my program.


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## MissCV (Sep 18, 2010)

Im sorry I cant offer any advice, just support. Good luck for your exams and I hope everything goes well with Sunny....


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

His breathing seems a little worse this morning, so I think we will probably do an xray at the vet today. Please send good thoughts. This whole thing terrifies me, and I can't do anything for him until this afternoon.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Good luck Michelle!


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Good luck. Keep us posted.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He seems better again now. He's so confusing.  I came home early originally intending to try to take him for an earlier appointment, but now I think I'm just going to let him play for a few more hours. Especially since the last time we got there early, this vet made us sit there for 3 hours. >.<


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

lol. poor michelle. sunny is just messing with you during your finals. 

i'm sending positive thoughts his way.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well the senior vet's diagnosis is that Sunny has normal age-related changes and is not sick at all. We did take a culture just to be sure there's no localized infection in his sinuses that might not show up on bloodwork, but it was really just as a precaution. He agrees with me that the slight tail bob and the clicky breathing are kind of odd, but doesn't think they match up with the symptoms of any disease, and are most likely just wear and tear from aging. I asked what he would do if Sunny was his bird, and he said "Nothing. Give him lots of treats." So...hopefully there will be no more crises, and we can just go with that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

One other thing I've noticed is that he doesn't tail-bob after exertion, he does it when he's sleepy and beak grinding/getting ready to nap. I mentioned this to my vet, and he thinks it might just be an effect of him breathing more deeply as he gets ready to sleep, kind of like some humans have more prominent chest movement with respiration in sleep. Susanne, does that fit with your observations of older birds?

Basically I asked him about a million questions, and it just kept coming back to the fact that Sunny's symptoms are so inconsistent and he doesn't seem to be in any distress from them, ever. My vet feels that a real respiratory issue in a bird would worsen much faster and/or show up on an exam, especially considering that Sunny was super stressed and breathing hard, but his chest and airway still sounded clear. I think I was so geared up for this to be some horrible, tragic appointment that I'm having a hard time accepting that there really might be nothing wrong.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Awe. He's just getting older. He's just not in tip top shape like he used to be.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yep, exactly. I mentioned that I really want him to live into his twenties, and the vet was like "Well, based on this exam, I see no reason why that can't happen." He also said it's obvious we've done a good job for Sunny to look this good at his age. So that made me feel pretty awesome.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Yay! Do you feel better, hun? I do!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Kind of. I think I was so geared up for it to be some horrible tragic visit, that now it's almost hard to look at him and convince myself he's okay. But I absolutely do trust this vet. He's been seeing only birds for forty years, and he's usually all about being super conservative as far as tests are concerned. So if he says we don't need to xray, I believe him.  

One other thing -- I pointed out where I had been seeing the bulging in his neck/chest, and the vet told me that is actually too low to be his cervical air sac, and is part of the crop. So he thinks the movement I was seeing was actually just Sunny adjusting his crop in a way I hadn't noticed before when I wasn't watching him so obsessively. I guess it's a really good thing I didn't try to stick a pin in it.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

LOL! I'm very glad that he's OK, and I'm even more happy that you didn't stick a pin in it. . Give him extra kisses and treats! And then give yourself some treats for all the stress.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I will be doing all of that.  Thanks for all your help. I hope I won't be needing it again for a long while.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad Sunny is okay.  Now you can relax. How did your exams go?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sunny's culture was (unsurprisingly) negative. The senior vet is supposed to call me with his "official recommendations" tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure his recommendation will be "do nothing." Sunny does seem much better since we've stopped messing with/stressing him, although he still has the sneezing and slight tail bob that were his original symptoms. I'm hopeful the vet is right, and they're just quirks of his.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear they're negative. Sunny is a mystery.  But it sounds like overall, he is doing well.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

sunnysmom said:


> Sunny is a mystery.  But it sounds like overall, he is doing well.


That's pretty much what the vet said LOL. We were talking about the tail bob, an he was like "Well, it's not exactly NORMAL, but just because a bird does something weird, that doesn't automatically make it a problem." I think sometimes I nee to work harder at remembering that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Man, I wish they made little birdie Sudafed for 'tiels. Sunny is still sounding congested in the mornings, but we've started a new routine where I wake him up, mist him, and then give him some millet with the carotene on it. It usually takes him a few minutes of preening and sneezing, but then he is fine for the rest of the day. I wish I knew what was causing this in the first place, though. I'm seriously starting to wonder if he's allergic to his own dander.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

It's funny you said that because I was just thinking the same thing- I wonder if it's his dander. Or possibly Roo's?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah, I'm not sure. It definitely does seem to follow the pattern of an allergy, though. You'd think if it were infectious or some kind of internal problem, the symptoms would be more consistent throughout the day.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Yes, you would think so. Do you cover his cage at night? If he's congested more in the morning could it be something with the cover? Or maybe him just breathing the dander overnight..........


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I do cover him, but it's with a very light weight sheet that I wash twice a week with unscented, hypoallergenic detergent. So I don't think it's that. I think it's just from sleeping with his head turned back at night, and therefore breathing in more dander. But I'm just not really sure. My gut tells me he's in decline, but I don't know how accurate my gut is and how much is biased by anxiety. I think we're done trying to treat unless he's in distress, though. We're doing more harm than good right now.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The vet called this afternoon for an update, so I told him that I think Sunny's symptom frequency is increasing. He basically said that as long as Sunny keeps acting normal, we should stick with the allergy theory, because we've ruled out just about everything else. But, he's going to get me some antihistamines compounded for Sunny's water. I hope that helps.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I hope that they help too. Try to stay optimistic about Sunny. As you've told me about my Sunny- your Sunny is not THAT old. He can live happily for many more years and with you taking care of him and little Roo pestering him, I'm sure he'll be around for a long time.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I know he is not that old. It's just hard when I see his symptoms getting more frequent -- that makes it difficult not to believe he has something degenerative, like cancer. But, as my vet pointed out, they've never treated a bird with something like that who continued to act as normal as Sunny does. So they feel pretty strongly that it is not that.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Aww, I'm sorry you and Sunny are going through this. It does sound like allergies though so I hope the new treatment helps.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks, Jaime. As stressful as it is, I'm glad he's with me, because my parents definitely would not be equipped to deal with this situation. Plus, regardless of how much time we have left, I'm glad I've gotten to spend the past few months with him.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

He sounds like a really awesome little guy! I am quite sure he is enjoying his time with you too. And I think you guys will have a lot more time together


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He is. It's ironic, really, because he was never really a very affectionate bird before. But now he is, because we've been spending so much time together since I started noticing his symptoms.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

That is sweet


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

I think everything will be fine.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He has seemed a bit better today. Thank you so much for all of the good thoughts and support.

One other question, since I've noticed him picking at some of his droppings lately. Are any of these types of brewer's yeast appropriate as a supplement? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=brewer's+yeast

I have looked at several different pharmacies and grocery stores here, and have not been able to find anywhere that carries it locally.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Picking at droppings can also be a sign of choline deficiency. If you can get him to nibble on egg or egg food, it may help as well.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I got the NOW foods brand-"reduced bitterness", but that is what they had at the grocery store near my house. I think any Brewer's yeast in powdered form is good to give.

Susannne has some info about eating droppings here, but I'm sure you've already read it:
http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/eating-droppings.html


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yeah, I have. I'm not sure whether he's actually eating them, or "cleaning house" since he's been so nesty about his cage lately. But I figure brewer's yeast can't hurt.


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## Cryren8972 (Oct 3, 2007)

Ah, thanks for the link..I was unaware that Brewer's yeast contained choline. Yet another use for this product. =)


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Bailey, where did you find the brewer's yeast in the supermarket? Was it with vitamins, or somewhere else? I tried asking last weekend, and none of the employees knew what it was. (Of course, they also didn't know what quinoa was when I asked for that, so... >.<)


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It was near the vitamins and herbal extracts with other health supplements.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay. I'll try looking again.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

The jars are kind of big. About as tall as the length of my hand...if that helps you when looking.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm just not sure my supermarket will have it at all. They kind of suck -- they don't even have the usual health/organic food section that most Publix stores do.


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

BjKnight which store are you finding it at ? I cant find it either, tried HEB and Sprouts. Does it come in different strengths? Thanks 
Seems Brewers yeast has quite a few benefits and something good to have on hand.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

No luck with the brewer's yeast. I'm just going to order it.

On the other hand, the super helpful cashier assured me that my kids will love the tilapia I bought for dinner.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Jellybean, I found it at HEB near the bulk foods, supplements, vitamins, herbal extracts, protein bars...etc. (HEB is only in TX)


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## jellybean (Mar 20, 2011)

OK thanks, i will try again. We have a small HEB in Georgetown, i think ill try the one in Round Rock then


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I haven't gotten the antihistamines from the vet yet (because they had to find a compounding pharmacy to make the right concentration), but Sunny had a good weekend. He was not perfectly symptom-free, but he was more active and seemed generally less congested than Thursday/Friday. 

I do wish I knew what caused the bulgy neck/chest, because that has continued on and off and is the weirdest thing ever. The senior vet thinks he's somehow getting air in his crop, or doing a weird new crop adjustment thing, since the bulging is too low to be an air sac. But it's just so bizarre.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

That does sound really strange. It would freak me out if I saw it! But I am very glad that he is doing better


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It looks like he's puffing out his crop area when it happens. But many times when it happens, it appears to be voluntary -- and sometimes he even does it while he's beak grinding! So it clearly doesn't bother him, as much as it makes me go "OMG your neck is going to explode!" I'm not sure if it's an age thing or an injury thing or just a WEIRD behavioral thing, but I'm pretty resigned to it just being a part of his 'normal' now. The vet did say that a rupture or airsacculitis would not look like that, so...really, who knows.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Yep, maybe just a unique Sunny thing.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Another update: I had to opt against the compounded antihistamine because it was going to cost over $100 a month. I love Sunny dearly, but I can't afford to spend nearly 1/10th of my monthly pay on meds that may or may not do anything.  

On the bright side, we moved his cage to the other side of the room, far away from the air conditioning vent, and so far he seems much less sneezy. So maybe that will end up being the answer. Regardless, he's had these intermittent symptoms for about 6 weeks now with no sign of further deterioration or significant loss to his quality of life, so I'm feeling more optimistic at the moment.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Do you have a HEPA air filter? If airborne crud is the problem, an air purifier would probably help him breathe easier.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> Do you have a HEPA air filter? If airborne crud is the problem, an air purifier would probably help him breathe easier.


I do. His cage is also closer to it in the new spot, so hopefully that helps as well.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear that Sunny is less sneezy.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

They also came and changed my air conditioning filter today. So hopefully that will help too.


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