# Producing White-Faced Cinnamon



## Ken Roy (Sep 4, 2016)

I have grey white face, grey white-face pied, grey white face pearl, cinnamon and cinnamon pearl. I do not have any cinnamon white face. Is it possible to produce Cinnamon White-faced with any combination? In Pakistan we have small gene pool of good cockatiels. We import oft and on but the gene pool is not big. Therefore I thought if it is possible to produce a white face cinnamon out of my birds?


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

Yes it is. But you didn't tell us the genders and that is important since cinnamon is sex linked 


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## Ken Roy (Sep 4, 2016)

*Whitface Cinammon*

In all these mutations I have both males and females


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## shaenne (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm not familiar with genetics and all of that (i'm learning slowly!) but i'm pretty sure these guys are going to need specific genders for their mutations before they can help you with pairing for the desired result. You might want to compile a list of your birds stating their age (appropriate breeding age is also important), mutation and gender


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

To get wf cinnamon, both parents need to be either visual or split to wf and the father will need to be cinnamon as well. It is possible, but it will take you a couple generations of breeding (so a couple years) to get the results you want. You'll want to work with two pairs, so that you get babies that aren't related and can be bred together. In one pair, the male should be the visual cinnamon. In the other pair, the female should be the visual cinnamon. This way you get visual cinnamon hens that can be bred to males that are split cinnamon. Since none of your cinnamons are wf, make sure that at least one parent you use in each pairing is a visual wf. This will give you the building blocks for what you want in the 2nd generation pairing.


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## Ken Roy (Sep 4, 2016)

*Supplementary Question*

Thanks Roxy. I am an old Exhibition Budgerigar and Exhibition Finch fancier and I am in these two for last over forty years and regularly enter them in Shows. I am considered an expert in breeding these two and understanding their genetics fully. I took up interest in Cockatiel only recently and so have to learn a lot. I have been attending Cockatiel Shows here in Pakistan which are judged by European or American Judges but so far I have not shown my own birds. Today I managed to acquire a Cinnamon White-faced male, which a dealer had just imported from Holland. I only have a white-faced Cinnamon Pearl female, which is a very god specimen. If I mate it with my White- face Cinnamon Male, what would be likely result? Any white-face Cinnamon chick likely? I bother more about the quality of the bird and I am not so much concerned about the color but the color mutation has its own charm. I understand that many things that I am asking might have been discussed on this Forum but I hope old members will bear it out with me. Happy New Year.


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## SilverSage (Oct 19, 2014)

If you are an expert in genetics, then all you really need to know is that white face is recessive, and cinnamon is sex linked. White face is in Cockatiels what blue is in green birds, and I believe budgies also have A cinnamon mutation?


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## Ken Roy (Sep 4, 2016)

*Cinnamon Whiteface Revisited*

In Budgerigars, definitely there is a Cinnamon mutation and is sex-linked and is co-dominant with Ino. If this is same in Cockatiels then it would mean that my Whiteface Cinnamon male mated with my Whiteface Cinnamon Pearl hen will have all F1 Cinnamon Whiteface split for Cinnamon Pearl, provided the parents do not have any common hidden recessive gene. Is my deduction correct?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=26845
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=7227
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=15332

These stickies contain more info about cockatiel genetics. 
The only issue I see with breeding the two together is smaller, weaker babies. It is generally not recommended to breed two of the same mutation together for this reason, plus it can cause a higher death rate in the nest. Usually, the best breeding pair is a visual bred to a split. Cinnamon is sex-linked, meaning only males can be split to it, females have to be visual to carry the gene. That being said, there is nothing with test breeding the pair to see if they do produce good healthy stock. All the babies will be cinnamon from this pair, so it will be difficult to sex them until after their first molt.


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## Ken Roy (Sep 4, 2016)

*Whiteface Cinnamon or Normal Cinnamon*

Will they be normal Cinnamon or White-face Cinnamon?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

If only the male is wf, you will not get wf babies. All the babies will be split to wf and can be paired to a visual wf to get visual babies. It's going to take you two to three generations to really get the birds you want.


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## ParrotletsRock (Oct 8, 2013)

roxy culver said:


> If only the male is wf, you will not get wf babies. All the babies will be split to wf and can be paired to a visual wf to get visual babies. It's going to take you two to three generations to really get the birds you want.


The way I read it both parents would be whiteface therefore all chicks will be whiteface as well.
On never mind...lol you recommended getting a nonwhiteface to keep genes strong... oops


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> The way I read it both parents would be whiteface therefore all chicks will be whiteface as well.
> On never mind...lol you recommended getting a nonwhiteface to keep genes strong... oops


He doesn't want just the wf, he wants a wf cinnamon. He currently only has cinnamons or wfs so the besides the new bird he acquired I believe. So with that, the babies he gets from this bird and any of the females he has, will be visual of one mutation and split to the other he wants. To keep it going, he's going to have to breed babies to the ones he has. The best idea would be to use two pairs to get the splits and visuals he wants, then pair the babies together to the visuals he's looking for.


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## ninfatiel (Jul 22, 2016)

you can use a virtual breeder .here is the link. http://kirstenmunson.com/cockatiels/virtual-breeder/ I've used it so much that now I can calculate the offsprings no problem and dont need breeder any more..but it helped me so much to understand how genetics works


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This is an old thread, but since it just came back to life:

Breeding a cinnamon male to a whiteface female (pair #1) will give you this result in the first generation: all sons will be grey split to cinnamon and whiteface and all daughters will be cinnamon split to whiteface. 

Breeding a whiteface male to a cinnamon female (pair #2) will give you this result in the first generation: all sons will be grey split to cinnamon and whiteface and all daughters will be grey split to whiteface. 

Breeding the children of pair #1 to the children of pair #2 will give you some visual cinnamon whiteface in the second generation. 

The cinnamon mutation is the same gene in both cockatiels and budgies, and the lutino gene is also the same gene in both species. Whiteface is the same as the blue gene. 

Cinnamon and lutino are NOT co-dominant, since they are completely different genes and co-dominance is something that occurs with different variations of the same gene. But cinnamon and lutino do interact with each other somewhat, because the way that cinnamon interferes with melanin production has an influence on what the lutino mutation does. I have more info here in my coloration mechanics article: http://www.littlefeatheredbuddies.com/info/breed-coloration2.html#cinnamonlutino


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