# Here's Krissi!



## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

This little girl is 13 years old and is going through a heavy molt right now...so she is not at the peak of her beauty. We met up with her owner yesterday and moved her into quarantine. She is a sweetheart! She lets me give her scritches and massage the sheaths off her head feathers. The only thing that is worrying me right now is she is tail bobbing.  So I think I'm going to try to get her into the vet tomorrow and have some respiratory tests run. Here are some pictures of the scraggly little lady...the last is a video of her tail bobbing.


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## xoxsarahxox (Dec 13, 2010)

awwww shes such a cutie!!!!! Scruffy or not shes gorgeous! Im surprised she doesnt have alot of pearls for a girl. I hope everything is alright with her!


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Krissi is a gorgeous cockatiel,hope the vet visit goes well,keep us informed.


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## rainfeather (Jan 26, 2012)

Oooo, krissi is pretty even when she's molting  I have yet to experience molting in my cockatiel (but of course that comes at around 6-12 months of age). Hope all goes well at the vet. Please keep us updated!


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## mishkaroni (Jan 6, 2012)

Oh how beautiful! I especially love them scruffy looking


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She looks fine to me. Slight, slow tail-bobbing like that can be normal, and I have noticed that both of my senior birds do it. I am not sure if it's really an age thing, but when I pointed it out to my vet, he wasn't concerned. I do think that a vet check is a good idea, though, since Krissi is older and has just been through a stressful move. She's adorable.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I asked her previous owner if she had ever noticed her tail-bobbing before and she said that she hadn't; maybe I'm just paying too close attention to her. Is it normal for her to do that while she sleeps? I knew it was sometimes normal after they had flown or had exercise. I tried researching it, but anytime I type in "tail bobbing" anywhere it just comes up in a list of sick-bird symptoms. I guess I'm just concerned that the move could bring out underlying issues with her. I am always pretty vigil looking out for birdie diseases...

But, she actually seems to be adjusting remarkably well. The drive was about an hour and a half for her yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have shaken her up too much. She has continued to eat and drink and is quite active. I expected her to have a much harder time being away from her owner of 13 years, but I am very pleased with the transition.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

She is gorgeous and I hope all is well with her.


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## DesertDweller (Oct 8, 2011)

Such a pretty lady!! It didn't look like tail bobbing to me. Rather, it looked like normal motions when a bird is maintaining it's balance when on a perch like Krissi was on. She didn't look like she was distressed or anything. Just breathing normally and keeping her balance.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I sent you a PM, but also take a look at this thread: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=9872&highlight=slow+tail-bobbing


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

It didnt look tail bobbing to me either just moving wings slightly


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She has an appointment at 9:40 tomorrow morning. I couldn't get her in today because they were doing staff training during the period between my classes and work.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

She is a cutie. Let us know how the vet visit goes.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She is very thin (i knew that already), so it is said to be nutritional, parasitic, or caused from disease. I'm currently in the office while Krissi is back getting x-rays. They are also do a fecal exam and a "Injacom Injection" --reading off their computer. The grand total is $430.25 (estimate)...more than i make in 2 weeks. I get paid tomorrow...so I'll be okay, but on an extremely tight budget. Krissi is depleting my savings account..


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Injacom: "VITAMINS A, D, E, AND B COMPLEX"


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

And then they're in here talking to me like i'm stupid and know nothing about my birds. AND they tried to tell me that they want them mainly on a pellet diet with veggies "aaand a little bit of seed." After looking at my charts he told me that seeds were fairly important in moderation with Lutinos because they are prone to Kidney issues.

I'm sorry i'm just frustrated and needed to rant. Vets are good, but expensive. Everyone has their own opinion on the variation of seed versus pellet diets.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the expense and the lecture from the vet. You're a good bird mom for taking Krissi in. And I'm glad to hear that basically Krissi is okay, right? We have a vet appointment tonight for Sunny- just a check up and nail clipping. I'm crossing my fingers I like this vet. We didn't have a good experience with the last vet we saw. I'll be curious to see what he says about seeds/pellets, if anything.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well she's thin, so there's something wrong...i just hope that it's something curable and not something like wasting disease (which was mentioned) and scared the crap out of me.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Aww, sorry for you and Krissi's ordeal. I will keep my fingers crossed that It is nothing major.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I told her other mommy about everything ans she is worried sick and feels terrible because she never thought anything was wrong. She offered to forward me money to help with the expenses. She is a very sweet girl and i know she had no clue about anything being wrong with Krissi. I wish i had better news to give her.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> Well she's thin, so there's something wrong...i just hope that it's something curable and not something like wasting disease (which was mentioned) and scared the crap out of me.


Oops, sorry. I misunderstood. I thought the injection was what they were giving to treat the problem. I didn't realize they still were looking into what the problem is. Hopefully, it is nothing serious. (I'm going to have to google wasting disease now. Although sometimes I think I'm better off not knowing things, less to worry about. :blink Keep us posted on Krissi.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Aw bless hope everything turns out alright for you


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Poor krissi and poor you! I hope the beautiful little girl will be okay.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Wasting disease meaning PDD or AGY? PDD is pretty rare, especially in an only-bird, and AGY should be treatable with the right medications. Hopefully she just needs some love from you and she'll be back in great shape.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

The xray looked good other than it really pointing out how thin she was, and there was an area of soft tissue that he wasn't sure what to make of. Her bone density was good (she's never laid an egg before), her lungs were clear, and she had millet in her crop (i've been spoiling her with lots since it is a high energy food)...the thinness was evident as the typical hourglass shape of the GI tract was much slimmer. 

He said to diagnose wasting disease he would have to give her Barium and another xray (xrays are $125 a pop)...maybe her bloodwork will show some imbalances that can give us an idea. 

Meanwhile i've turned her cage into a "hospital cage," i've tried to get her to eat a better seed mix (the other had fillers in it), i've tried putting yogurt on her millet but she will not have it lol and my boyfriend thinks he threw away our benebac so i'll have to get more. The only place around here that sells it is petco and i hate supporting them--though i did write a letter of complaint to corporate, i never got a response back, but the cages looked cleaner and i didn't see any sick tiels the last time i dropped in..i may have just gone by on a good day.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You can get Benebac from Amazon. That's how I got mine.  I really, really doubt she has PDD, although I was definitely paranoid about it when Roo had her weight issues. Does she eat pellets at all? Harrison's high potency has really helped Roo recover her body condition.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

BTW, for what it's worth, Roo had a normal gram stain but her weight issues still responded to Baytril. Not everything shows up in tests. Here's my thread about unexplained weight loss: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=24213 Not sure if it'll help you, but there's some good ideas there.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

No she's a seed junkie. I'm afraid to change her diet up too much while she's sickly, i'm not even sure she's accepted the new seed mix--of course her old one is still there so she won't starve. I'll order some harrisons after i deposit my paycheck tomorrow though. I had 2 big things of benebac...cost me like $20 and he thinks he threw it out bc it had fallen under the cage and had seed on it!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I have this size: http://www.amazon.com/Bene-Bac®-Bir...SS3E/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1328762739&sr=8-5 It's not too terribly expensive.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Honestly, I know people here will disagree, but -- If this was my bird and the tests showed nothing, I'd ask for a broad spectrum antibiotic before concluding she has wasting disease. In fact, that's what I DID when I was in your position, and I'm convinced it saved Roo's life. What does she weigh? Will you be weighing her daily/on a regular schedule?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I remember reading that when i was concerned about Luna...turns out he's just a small bird. I will keep all of that info in mind. Maybe i'll suggest Baytril to the vet if everything turns out normal. 

Right now i'm collecting for a fecal float for a few days so they can do some labwork.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She has weighed 81 g with food in her. I'm going to start writing it down daily like i did for Luna so i can keep track of her.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That's right, I remember talking to you about Luna now. (And I had forgotten it was a different thread where I was convinced I was going to have to put her down.  But that's beside the point.)

Does the vet think it's at all possible that Krissi is just thin from stress and/or a poor diet? If her former owner is moving, her life might have been pretty hectic the past few weeks/months...

Something my vet told me that made me feel much better is that it's really not possible for weight loss to continue unexplained. They have to either stop, or show clinical signs that will tell you what you're dealing with. But I think there's reason to hope that she might just get better on her own, in your nurturing environment.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> She has weighed 81 g with food in her. I'm going to start writing it down daily like i did for Luna so i can keep track of her.


That's not too horrible. Records are a good idea. I don't really keep them anymore because my birds are stable and I was making myself insane...but it definitely was important when Roo was recuperating.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

enigma731 said:


> I have this size: http://www.amazon.com/Bene-Bac®-Bir...SS3E/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1328762739&sr=8-5 It's not too terribly expensive.


How do you give that? I had the gel which you just measured out 1/2 g to give them using the measurements on the side of the syringe. They ate it from my finger.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> How do you give that? I had the gel which you just measured out 1/2 g to give them using the measurements on the side of the syringe. They ate it from my finger.


I mix it with water and give it from a syringe. It's not terribly exact, but the weight range on the dose is like 50-250g, so I figure if my 80g bird gets at least half, that should be sufficient. 

Roo actually takes it willingly -- I think it's sweet, or at least it smells like it is. 

Here's my thread about that.  http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=24286


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

enigma731 said:


> Does the vet think it's at all possible that Krissi is just thin from stress and/or a poor diet? If her former owner is moving, her life might have been pretty hectic the past few weeks/months...


He said it could be nutritional, parasitic, or from disease...whatever it is i just hope she pulls through.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> He said it could be nutritional, parasitic, or from disease...whatever it is i just hope she pulls through.


I think she will.  She didn't get to be thirteen without being a tough bird.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well she is very active when i have her out with me, begs for scritches on her itchy pin-feathery head, and preens/sleeps in the steam of my showers. The little booger fell asleep after her exam and xray and whatnot today..so the vet saw it as a bad thing, preferring that she be alert. But my god, we were there an hour and a half and i'm sure she was stressed from the whole thing...also they sleep more during molting so i wasn't overly concerned about it.

Oh, but as soon as they were done, she started wandering around the exam tabletop looking for stuff to get into. She sure knows when to show off.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> The little booger fell asleep after her exam and xray and whatnot today..so the vet saw it as a bad thing, preferring that she be alert. But my god, we were there an hour and a half and i'm sure she was stressed from the whole thing...also they sleep more during molting so i wasn't overly concerned about it.


LOL I've had this happen SO MANY TIMES at the vet. They keep us waiting for like 2.5 hours, and meanwhile there's all these dogs barking and Roo is going NUTS freaking out. Then she's super exhausted and subdued while the vet is examining her, and he's all "hmmmmmm, she seems lethargic. I think we should get bloodwork!"


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well they got us in within 10 minutes of us arriving and they weren't too busy as it was an early appointment. But they were handling her from 9:40 until 11:15 so i would expect her to be a little tuckered out.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> Well they got us in within 10 minutes of us arriving and they weren't too busy as it was an early appointment. But they were handling her from 9:40 until 11:15 so i would expect her to be a little tuckered out.


Yeah, I definitely wouldn't take that to mean anything other than that the visit was tiring. It sounds like she's adjusting really well.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She had a physical exam (which she screamed the whole way through), an xray, blood drawn, and a vitamin shot. I'm not really sure how they do the xray but somehow it was of her on her back with her wings pinned down --like a snow angel..so i'm sure she wasn't too happy about that either.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> She had a physical exam (which she screamed the whole way through), an xray, blood drawn, and a vitamin shot. I'm not really sure how they do the xray but somehow it was of her on her back with her wings pinned down --like a snow angel..so i'm sure she wasn't too happy about that either.


Do they sedate for that? Roo was zonked for like an entire day after her experience with anesthesia.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I don't know..i'm sure if i look at the invoice it would have some kind of drug for it if they did. But the invoice is in my car because i didn't want everyone to see it and it's cold outside so i'll just look tomorrow. But i figure they would have discussed it with me first if they were going to use sedation?? They said she was really good about letting them do what they needed to so maybe they would have only if she put up a big fight.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

BJ Knight93,how is Krissi doing today?hopefully she is doing better,we are thinking of you and Krissi.She seems like a really sweet cockatiel,glad you got her,you deserve many wonderful years with her.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She's still doing well, she is eating and drinking aned being active...and i'm still collecting poop.

I've plastic wrapped her cage this morning to keep it warmer because my heating blanket isn't do the trick. I've only had it 6 months so it should still be good. She also has a heated perch i went out and bought before i got her. I'm going to go get a thermometer to keep track of the cage temperature. I'm getting benebac for her today to so she can have some good bacteria to help her digest everything. I ordered harrison's high potency last night and it shipped out this afternoon. I'm doing all i can to get her better as things are now.


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

Glad Krissi is doing better,give her hugs from all of us.We are thinking of you both.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

You are such a good mommy!


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> Well she is very active when i have her out with me, begs for scritches on her itchy pin-feathery head, and preens/sleeps in the steam of my showers. The little booger fell asleep after her exam and xray and whatnot today..so the vet saw it as a bad thing, preferring that she be alert. But my god, we were there an hour and a half and i'm sure she was stressed from the whole thing...also they sleep more during molting so i wasn't overly concerned about it.
> 
> Oh, but as soon as they were done, she started wandering around the exam tabletop looking for stuff to get into. She sure knows when to show off.


Sunny was at the vet yesterday and he fell asleep on my shoulder waiting for his test results to come back. The whole vet thing just tuckers them out. So I agree- don't be concerned about that. Keep us posted on Krissi. I hope all will be well.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yikes....this is the first time to read your thread....Just some thoughts.

* i've tried to get her to eat a better seed mix (the other had fillers in it)*

The seed mix she was on may be the cause for the thinness. If it had alot of fillers then there was very little for her to actually eat....and over time it will lead to a very slow and gradual weight loss and malnutrition. Since she was not actually getting enough, part of that thinness is because her fat reserves are probably depleted. You can mix 50/50 her old brand and a new seed mix *with sunflower seed* in it. And over a week or so increase the new seed ratio and reduce the old mix ratio.

*Yuk*....Harrisons has a great reputation, just got tyo tell it to the birds....many balk at eating it. You might want to try a more mainstream pellet such as Zupreen and return the Harrisons. One thing that sticks in my mind told to me many years ago is from a pellet company, was that if a bird is older it is best to leave them on a seed (and varied with fresh foods) diet. it takes up to 18 months for their body to adapt to this type of diet.

She would benefit from FSL lighting near or above her cage. Also with the molt, and stresses from change Brewers Yeast sprinkled/dusted on any food she will eat.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Yikes....this is the first time to read your thread....Just some thoughts.
> 
> * i've tried to get her to eat a better seed mix (the other had fillers in it)*
> 
> ...


I have Zupreem pellets that my other birds eat so I'll try her on that...I ordered the Harrison's because enigma said it helped when Roo was underweight. I'll put the pellets in and let her choose to eat them or not. I'll stop by the local pet store and make a good seed mix for her. I'll stop by home depot and see if i can find an fsl light for her today..i was planning to get one for the birds to use during the winter anyway. I'll find the Brewer's yeast when I go out today as well. Thanks for your suggestions! I'll make this all a priority.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

She's an older bird so her system has adapted to what she has been eating. Changes to diet should be *s-l-o-w*. I've been on forums and lists since 1998 and in those years I've seen many older birds lost due to sudden diet changes. it is a stressor to their body and if they are result malnutrition and thin (no body fat stores) they have no defences in their body to support the immune system. Then they are very susceptible to secondary bacterial/yeast and other health issues. 

Aside from the above she appears to be healthy. Her eye shape does not indicate any major problems. The Brewers Yeast and the FSL will help quite a bit in her looking less scruffy. 

Also a light misting daily will help. There is something I have done (which many will read and suck in their breath, and think what???) that helps feather condition. I mixed 1/2 tsp of turpentine to a quart of water and used it to lightly mist once a day for a week.


Oh....and she is an incomplete pearl....meaning the pearl pattern is disrupted with excess melanin (dark pigments) Once she looks a little better (should not be long) I'd like a good clear back view of her for my saved pix's of incomplete pearl patterns.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I wasn't planning on just switching her or forcing the diet change on her...i know better than to stress her further that way. 

Oh, and I did notice that about her patterning..but I haven't seen enough of incomplete pearls to put a name on the differentiation. I'd be more than happy to give you pictures once she gets some nice looking feathers.

Let me know if you have any other thoughts on her condition.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Do a site search of incomplete pearl and you should see several examples.


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## DesertDweller (Oct 8, 2011)

As you may know from my older posts, I am a strong advocate of giving underweight birds baby bird formula. I found that the older birds don't like Kaytee but they absolutely love Lafeber's. Lafeber's has a rice base and Kaytee has a corn base, and I think the taste of Lafeber's is more appealing.

I also read that Lafeber's formula is very beneficial to sick, undernourished or underweight birds. I give it to all my birds every day just as a morning treat while I'm preparing their regular meals. They just take a few tastes of it, so it's not a major part of their diet. But, it's a very nutritious snack - even for healthy birds.


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## morla (Aug 15, 2011)

Aw! She is so darn cute!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Alright so Krissi has been given her benebac, i've put up fsl lighting, i have a thermometer in her cage, and i've dusted her millet with brewer's yeast, which she's eating right now...and i mixed *just a little* of my food with hers and sprinkled a few pellets on top in case she wants to try them. 

I'll be getting a few more supplies tomorrow.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

It sounds like she is good to go for tonight.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Blood works back...liver and kidney indicators are a little highe, just out of range. And her white blood cell count is a bit out of range as well. He wants to see her back in a month.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I will later post some things you can do that are supportive of the liver and kidneys. Once those are addressed the white cell count will go down.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Could be stress from moving/diet adjustment. Hopefully everything will be great when you go back.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Hopefully, Krissi is on the mend and will be completely better soon!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Oh no!  i've got chills running through me right now. I did disease testing with avian biotech with Krissi and i have been impatiently checking the results page. Chlamydia, pbfd, pacheco's, and polyoma all came back about a week ago as negative. But i just checked the page again and it said "Aspergillosis, result: positive." This just makes me sick.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Try to stay calm. It's good that you've caught this before she's started showing symptoms. She's been looking better, and that's a good sign too.

Now you need to contact your vet and ask about getting antifungals to treat. The treatments I have read most commonly are fluconazole and amphotericin B. I know I have also read mentions of metronidazole, but I do not know if it would be strong enough. 

It may also be worthwhile to contact Avian Biotech and see what they think of this result. What test did they use for this, and what is the rate of false positives? Is it possible she could test positive but not actually have a problematic infection? I know there is a certain level of aspergillosis spores that we are all exposed to in the environment, and that should not be a problem for a healthy bird. Also ask if they think this is a case where they would recommend waiting and retesting in a period where she is less stressed. 

You are a great mommy for getting all of this information on her health. Now you need to try to keep calm and figure out the best way to use it to help her.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

What i'm worried is that the vet won't just treat her because my test came positive. They'll probably want to do their own tests which would take another week to come back before they'll do anything. I'll have to call them first thing monday. The only other clinics that are open sundays don't specialize in birds...or the clinics that are open and regularly see birds all decided that the bird doctors don't need to be at their animal hospital on sunday. I found that out when Ava was on her death bed; i called everyone all over the city before going to the emergency animal hospital. 

Diagnostic testing is about $70 at my vet and to _speak_ to the doctor is another $60 and meds will probably be $30. And i was going to start *saving* money...lol but saving Krissi trumps that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know, Avian Biotech has a good reputation, so they may be willing to accept those results. Or, if they do want to retest, maybe you could bargain with them to start a trial of meds while waiting for their result to come back.

Either way, at her age, it's likely she's had this for a while, so I think you have some time to figure out a treatment plan. She's been stable since you've had her, so try to keep that in mind. This test result just gives you information -- It doesn't actually change anything about her. 

Lots of hugs for you and Krissi!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I believe biotech did a pcr test and it was on the vent swab i sent them. To be most accurate they test a vent and throat swab but i had already done the vent for chlamydia testing and didn't have another swab handy. When i noticed that tail bob i added aspergillosis to the test list and wrote out another $25. I *hate* waiting.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Bailey, I feel your pain! I am going through something similar with Zoey. She may have Aspergillosis, but I am not sure. I have to *wait* until Monday to know for sure! Hang in there, I will be thinking of you and Krissi! Waiting is hard


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Sending hugs to you and Krissi.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

bjknight93 said:


> I believe biotech did a pcr test and it was on the vent swab i sent them. To be most accurate they test a vent and throat swab but i had already done the vent for chlamydia testing and didn't have another swab handy. When i noticed that tail bob i added aspergillosis to the test list and wrote out another $25. I *hate* waiting.


I would definitely ask Biotech to clarify this. PCR tests generally work by detecting antibodies to the specific disease in the animal's system. But I don't know whether this is an effective way to detect an actual asper infection, because it seems to me that if all birds/humans are exposed to some amount of asper in the environment, they might have the antibodies even if they weren't actually infected with the organism. PCR tests can be invalid if the individual has a history of the disease, because many kinds of antibodies are extremely long-lived. So you could get a positive PCR if the bird/person has EVER been exposed to a disease, not just if it is currently an active infection.

Keep in mind I don't know the specifics of how Biotech makes the determination of a positive versus negative test. It might be that there's some threshold level of antibodies above which the bird is considered to have the disease, thereby dealing with the problem I mentioned. However, I would definitely ask them to explain that to you, and see if you can even get a rate of false positives from them. I'm also not sure why they would be able to find asper in a vent swab. I thought it was typically shed in respiratory secretions. 

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying you should ignore this result. I just think you need more info before you conclude she needs super strong meds.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I've gotten different info on diagnosis:

" Diagnosis of avian Aspergillosis can be difficult, at best, other than by autopsy. Tentative diagnosis can be made with clinical signs as well as the absence of bacterial infection in moist exudates. A blood test showing an elevation in white blood cell count, mild anemia and an elevation in the monocytes also supports this diagnosis. X-rays should be taken on any suspect patient-many times the radiograph will reveal densities or nodules consistent with aspergellomas. Additionally, your avian veterinarian should take samples and attempt to culture the fungus in specially prepared culture media. Blood should also be submitted for serologic evaluation."
http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/aspergillosis.htm

" Recently, other tests have been developed that attempt to identify antibodies or Aspergillus organisms in the blood. These tests can be more effective at detecting Aspergillus in the body, but they are so sensitive that many animals testing positive may not actually have the disease. There are also a significant number of affected birds that test negative using these methods. Your avian veterinarian may well suggest running these tests to provide additional data, but they are unlikely on their own to provide a definitive diagnosis.

Ultimately, the best way to definitively diagnose aspergillosis is to have a pathologist observe affected tissue under a microscope. Biopsies can be taken under anesthesia, typically via endoscopy, and sent to a laboratory to be analyzed. A positive result of this test is the best possible way to be certain of a diagnosis of aspergillosis, but it is not without its limitations. Placing a debilitated bird under anesthesia can be a dangerous procedure and taking a biopsy may lead to hemorrhage or other life-threatening complications. Additionally, there is a chance that the affected tissue may be missed when the biopsy is taken. Therefore, it is not normally used as the first test."
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=189&A=3241&S=0

And here's avian biotech's page on it:
http://avianbiotech.com/Diseases/Aspergillosis.htm


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Hmmm. That's tough.

So you have a negative xray, and I'm assuming a negative physical exam? Did the vet listen to her chest? I assume they didn't hear anything if they didn't pursue further disease testing themselves. I don't know what you'd say about clinical signs in this case, because the ones you're seeing are pretty minimal and also vague (and possibly caused by other things, like nutritional deficiency). 

Did the vet give you details on the blood counts? I know you said white count was a bit elevated, but does it match this specific pattern? Were the monocytes elevated?

What's tough here is that Biotech and the second link you posted both indicate that serology tests do tend to give false positives. And it's not as simple as just trying the meds, because the meds tend to be pretty toxic.

I think if I were you, I would talk to the vet about repeating the blood and the PCR before making a decision. I know that's not what you want to hear financially, but in this case it's not a low risk situation to just treat.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I know.  i can get a copy of her records too when we go back up there.

And yes the vet listened to her chest; he did a *very* thorough exam.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

She has an appointment Wednesday morning at 9.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

More good thoughts and vibes for beautiful Krissi!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm so frustrated! I just got another lecture on diet and apparently nutriberries are "junk food." After the exam and halfway through the lecture, i noticed all they wrote on the paper for him is "wants to discuss false readings on lab tests" so the whole time he thought we were talking about the bloodwork! So I had to ask him "did they tell you why I was here?" Because obviously they hadn't. But anyways...after telling him, he said it was likely a false positive because her lungs sound fine and her blood tests don't indicate it and her xray shows no densities in her lungs. They're rechecking her levels that they were concerned about and they want me to give her "opt omega" to increase fatty acid intake. He also talked about a nasal flush because he said her nares look pretty clogged.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm so sorry you had another frustrating experience. But it's good that her lungs and blood work are good, right? I really don't understand how he can say nutriberries are junk food. How annoying.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah..I think he's one of those doctors who thinks all seed is junk and they should just be eating pellets. After reading reviews I would _really_ rather see a vet in Cedar Park. I might consider it once everything is sorted out with Krissi, but it is almost an hour away.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Based on my own experience, I would recommend finding a vet you like once Krissi's problems are sorted out. I wrote about this before but our first vet experience was not the best and changing vets made a huge difference. (And the new vet suggested trying to make seeds one quarter of Sunny's diet. So I liked that he didn't suggest no seeds and one quarter seems reasonable to me.)


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well there's 2 avian vets at the clinic we go to. Previously we saw Dr Davis, and we had no real problems with her...but for some reason we got Dr Lusk for Krissi and he can make you feel as tall as a grain of rice if you let him. It wasn't as bad this time because I knew what to expect but I definitely raised my eyebrows when he told me nutriberries were junk food.

There's a bird & exotic clinic in Cedar Park that has great reviews so I think I'll try to make it over there the next time we have any problems with the flock.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Here is a copy of my email conversation with Avian Biotech, my email first sent is at the bottom and their reply on top:

Dear Bailey Knight: I checked with the technician who ran your sample and he said that the possibility of a false positive is very, very low. It is possible that a bird can have aspergillosis but be asymptomatic, but if you are spending a lot of money in vet bills it sounds like your bird is having some health issues. What symptoms are you seeing? Sincerely, Kat

----- Original Message -----From: Bailey Knight To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:53 AM Subject: Results

Hi!

My account number is 158137, and my name is Bailey Knight. I recently got a cockatiel named Krissi and did disease testing through the company. Her aspergillosis result came back positive through a vent swab pcr test. My questions are:

-What is the rate of false positives for this test?

-Is it possible she could test positive but not actually have a problematic infection?

She has already seen a vet and has racked up a $500 bill for me, but will see the vet again on monday regarding these test results. These questions are only for my own benefit/curiosity.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Wow, this must be so frustrating for you! I am sorry you are going through all this and hope you get the answers you need for Krissi.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time getting a straight answer.  You're doing such a great job with Krissi.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I just don't know what to think! She is gaining weight..slowly. She has gained about 5 grams during the the time I've had her. She is perky and playful and alert. She talks back when you talk to her.  She doesn't act weak (other than being worn out after her vet visits). The vet says her lungs sound good and look good. They never called me about the poop--they say if you don't hear back it's good news. The only thing that was _slightly_ elevated in relation to aspergillosis symptoms was her wbc (white blood cells), which Susanne said will go down once I get her liver and kidneys on normal levels.

But then there's that test...I think for now i'll be keeping an eye on her and keep weighing her everyday. I am considering sending a second sample of both throat and vent swab to avian biotech if I continue to feel uneasy about her. I replied to that email and told them all that the vet did and what we had seen from the xray and blood work...and I asked what they use as indicators for aspergillosis when they test the swabs. So we'll see...I do really wish I would have some answers though. It's frustrating having the vet, avian biotech, and the bird all contradicting each other.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, I think it sounds like the vet and the bird agree. 5 grams is a fantastic weight gain when you consider that some birds will lose 10% of their body weight just from going to a new home. I hope she continues to do so well!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Well originally the vet either really really thought there was something wrong (said she was probably very fragile and that many birds he sees like her are gone in a matter of days) or he just wanted my money....now he just seems to think I'm doing everything wrong because I'm not doing everything he asks me to. He just asks for me to do things that are too extreme and opinionated...like the pellet diet and "nutriberries are junk-food." And they keep asking me how she's taking her diet change. And I keep telling them S-L-O-W-L-Y because I don't want to change her too fast. If I take anyone back to this bird hospital I'll be asking to see dr davis...but I'm really thinking of getting them established elsewhere next time a doctor visit is needed. I'll go look at reviews again so I'll have an idea of where we're going next time.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Oh and I know the forum hasn't heard this part of Krissi--her broodiness. Well she does it every other day or so on her perches or her food bowl...just starts chirping and sticks her butt in the air. Wellll that opt omega I'm supposed to give her a drop once a day until it's gone. Today when I did the medicine grip (hand cupped over the back with finger and thumb holding the head steady), she began doing this within the first few seconds. Hopefully she won't pass an egg...but it's been about a week and a half since she's started this and none have come. I haven't asked her old owner about it but I will next time we speak to see if this is normal Krissi behavior or if I need to worry about her hormones.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

How far are you from Texas A&M?: https://services.tamu.edu/directory-search/?cn=veterinary&search_items=Depts&branch=roles

Many times veterinary collages will see and treat birds and also a minimal to no fees. You might want to contact them to see if they have an Avian Dept.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Vet called today and said Krissi's uric acid levels are down to 6.5 from 11.6. She is in normal range now. Thanks Susanne for the info! Let's hope she keeps improving!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Yay Krissi!


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## stevechurch2222 (Sep 25, 2011)

That's great news,way to go Krissi glad she's doing better.


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Awesome news!


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## northernfog (Dec 14, 2010)

What a beautiful bird. I'm really happy to hear she is doing better!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

So Krissi weighed in at 89 g this morning, but she may have just stuffed her crop with millet. Either way i am happy because that's the most the scale has ever displayed with her.

On a different note, and i didn't want to make a new thread:

I may be getting Krissi a new (used) cage on wednesday. Her current cage is 18x18x18 and the new one will be 25w x 21d x 30h. So it isn't much bigger but bigger is better even in small amounts. I told the guy i would take it if it was sturdy--lately the new cages on the market seem flimsy to me like the wires used aren't thick enough.

There is also a person in San Marcos who needs a cage for their cockatiel. They underestimated the living area of the bird so they need something bigger. So i may contact them and see if they would like Krissi's old cage.

Current cage:










New cage:










Oh, and I've added more perches and toys to her cage since the picture...she has a rope perch and stuff in there now. And she can't reach any of the electrical wires from her cage either. I've secured them with clothes pins so they are out of reach.


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## Boolove (Mar 1, 2012)

Awwww, look at all of those pins!! That is a really cute bathroom perch, I hope nothing is wrong with that pretty girl!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Here it is! It is much bigger than I thought it would be! Apparently she approves because she went down and had a bath in her water bowl...lol


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## JaimeS (Nov 28, 2011)

Aww, that looks very nice! I almost didn't see her among all her things! She is so pretty


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

That's a lot bigger than it looks. Lol. Glad she approves.


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