# Overgrown bill? *Picture included*



## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

This is Molly, one of the other cl cockatiels. When I got her, she had a chew perch (picture included) that was down to the metal core. Being that the metal was ribbed/edged, I was worried about her feet, so I replaced it with a cuttlebone. But I don't know if she's using it (few small chips in edge), and I was wondering about her beak (picture also included).

Should I put it back in? Try to find another to replace it with? From what I infer, this bird got very little mental stimulation, and most new things frighten her. For example, the first time I put in a sprig of millet near her food dish, she didn't eat for 12 hrs. : /

Thanks for answering all my questions!


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## daverohmfeld (Oct 26, 2012)

You can have your vet file it down a bit. A rapid growing beak can be a sign of an illness. I think liver problems.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

An overgrown beak indicates liver disease. She should see a vet to get a liver chem panel screening..an old, experienced, member recommends using lactulose in conjunction with herbal extracts. Lactulose you need a prescription for, but the herbal extracts can be bought from the supermarket. You can use milk thistle and dandelion extract daily at a ratio of 1 drop of each extract per 3 oz of water.

Using the extracts is not a cure, but it is meant to give the liver a boost to buy you some time to correct the problem. You can start the extracts, but the diet needs to be corrected to get real results. Take a look at our diet sticky here:
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27479

Ultimately, if the diet is not corrected and the liver is further strained the bird will eventually die from liver failure.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks. Molly (around 2 1/2 yrs old, or so I've been told) was on the Forti-Diet (kaytee, cheapest at walmart) and the boys were on Universal Blend (Wild Harvest, also cheap at walmart). I've gotten them on Fiesta Max, which I thought I'd read was an okay one to feed cockatiels, but after combing through some pages here, it seems that's not the case? I've been introducing foods from the cockatiel cottage page:

http://www.cockatielcottage.net/tablefoods.html

And while the boys have at least nibbled on the stuff I've given them, Molly has not.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I gave you a link to our diet recommendations in my post above. If you click the link and read through that you will learn A LOT! Tiel diets are seed-based, but a seed-only diet will cause liver disease and malnourishment. You'll end up with a very thin bird with an overgrown beak and possibly an ugly yellow wash over the feathers. 

Try to introduce pellets and green vegetables to your birds. Pellets you can leave in the cage all the time, and vegetables you can offer twice a day, leaving them in the cage for 30 minutes before disposing of them. 

A diet change is the ONLY thing that can fix this problem and prevent the problem from occuring in your other birds.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

I did read it, let me re-phrase...

Fiesta Max is mostly seed based with some pellets, and I switched them to it thinking it was decent/better then the all seed mixes they were previously on when I got them. I'd read (somewhere?) that the budgie mix is often easier for them to switch to because the pellets are smaller.

From combing around the food and nutrition section, it seems a lot of people have several different feeds that they mix together for their preferred blend, yes? That this isn't any one bag that is going to be the solve all end all?

I completely understand the concept of only seeds=fatty liver=death, but I have not had these birds long. How long after a diet change should I be able to see a positive effect?

As for the others, Karl already has a terribly overgrown beak that the lady would trim. I've included a picture of his, a testament to 5 yrs(ish?) on all seeds. It looks like when you peel a layer of your thumbnail and it leaves that rough layer.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

It is normal for beaks to peal some but that does look a bit extreme to me. I'm not an expert on the issue though. As for seeds, a lot of people have different preferences, but I think overall, a quality seed mix without fillers- dried fruits, etc, - that is just seeds is preferred. It is often hard to find those though. I order mine on line. Then you can purchase pellets separately. I got some free pellet samples from Roddybush by going on their website and asking. Not sure if they still do this- it was about 7 months ago- but they sent me 2 nice sized bags to see which my tiel liked better. I remember reading others on here were able to purchase sample packs too to test out. Nutriberries are also a good way to give your tiels nutrients. They have the same nutritional value as pellets but look more like seeds. I break them up and sprinkle with my tiel's seeds. He likes them a lot better than regular pellets. Nutriberries can be found in most pet stores.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

This is my Allie when I got her in May:









And this is her now:









Some in between/transition you can see:

















This was about a month ago, you can see her long beak here:









This is about the length it was when I got her:









I sprinkled seed on top of some pureed veggies to get her to eat greens:

















Now, it is quite obvious Allie had some other issues other than her liver disease. She has broken wings, deformed feet...had Vitamin A deficiency, STILL HAS liver disease. 

How her progress has gone is that: I started her diet change as soon as I got her..she is about 6 years old so her diet had been bad from the time she was hatched. I began treating her with the extracts about 2 weeks after bringing her home. I started offering her veggies in the form of pureed/heavily processed. I sprinkled seed on top of her veggies first; once she ate that well I mixed the seed into the veggies..and eventually I weaned out all the seed from her veggie dish. 

So in 6 months she has gone from a raggedy, skinny, liver-disease ridden bird to a pretty feathered, still a bit thin, and a more slowly growing beak. So she still has liver disease, but it is very clear to me that it is getting better. Her beak is growing slower and her overall condition has improved.

Side note: When/if you do pick up herbal extracts, they are about $10 a bottle but they last a very long time (I have had mine since February). Be sure to get the alcohol-free extracts.

I recommend Higgins Cockatiel Supreme Seed:
http://www.foryourbird.com/page/foryourbird/CTGY/higscock

And almost any pellet will do, but I avoid brands like Kaytee. I use Zupreem because it is all my flock will eat. An alternative to pellets is nutriberries, but they are a bit more expensive to buy. They are basically little pre-hulled seedballs that are coated with vitamins; they are supposed to be the equivalent to pellets as far as nutrition is concerned.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

Thanks for the info and pictures!

Where can I find out how much shipping is on the site you linked me to?

Petco carries these Higgins feeds, are any of them close to the one you linked me to?

http://www.petco.com/shop/searchresults.aspx?Ntt=HIggins&N=49%2030&Ns=P_Price|0&cmref=Pet%20Type&cmrefv=Cockatiels&cmrefr=5000&cmrefid=49&cmrefpf=1

Also, his beak might be cracked more then usual because he might be going through a molt. He's been growing in some new feathers on his wings, and in the last 24hrs he'll fluff and little downy ones will go everywhere. I'm still getting used to what's normal. : / But I did keep chickens for a long while, and it seems pretty simlar.
http://www.talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=35679&highlight=molting


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## parsley (Oct 15, 2012)

BJKnight. how wonderful what you have done for this poor bird! 
Obviously a rescue but was it a tiel rescue? or shelter? or?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Karl definitely is affected with liver disease as well. He also appears to possibly have a Vitamin A deficiency. 

The Higgins Sunburts looks decent, but still seems to have some fillers in it. But if that's the best you can do then it'll work. On the website I sent you: you can add the seed to your cart (you choose how many pounds) and then go all the way through check out process before paying. That will give your your price with shipping, so you won't have to pay or place your order before you know.

For Vitamin A deficiency: Purchase Beta Carotene capsules. These capsules you can pull the "shell" apart and dump the powder out. If you tiel likes millet spray, you can lightly mist a spray of millet with water from a mist bottle. Then you can get a cheap makeup brush from the dollar store and "paint" the carotene onto the millet. Hang the spray in Karl's cage and will get some Beta Carotene while eating it; then his body will synthesize as much Vitamin A as it needs from the powder. 

And parsley: I found Allie one day as I was browsing Ebay Classifieds. Her ad was way out of the search radius, so it was a miracle for me to have seen the ad. She was located about 30 minutes from my hometown..which is about a 5 hour drive from me. She was for sale with 3 other cockatiels..she was listed as "a crippled whiteface hen" for $40. So we went to North Texas, gambled in the casino across the Oklahoma border, and picked Allie up on the way back home. 

So yes, Allie is a rescue, but on a personal level. The town she was located in would not have given her vet care; and even if they did the vets around there are incompetent.

Here are the photos from the orginal ad (permission granted for use/not copyrighted):


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

Well, it's morning here, so I'm trying the veggies for breakfast tip. Trickery shall be next when I pull out the blender.

Is the beta carotene species specific, or is it like these?
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Spring-Valley-Beta-Carotene-25-000-I.U.-Softgels-Dietary-Supplement-100-ct/10533300

What about this beta carotene spray for reptiles? It's already in a spray bottle, but if it's bad for them then I'll stick with the tablets.
http://www.petco.com/product/108570/Zilla-Vitamin-Supplement-Reptile-Food-Spray.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

I'm going to probably go with the Sunburst, the shipping on the other stuff is crazy!

Also, is there anything I can do with all this extra feed(besides chucking it)? When I pick up the new stuff, it'll mean I have three extra different bags sitting around my room. Homemade treat sticks? Craigslist?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

You can feed the wild birds or you can mix the 2 seeds together..eventually the crappy seed will all be used up.

Beta carotene capsules like this will work:
http://www.amazon.com/Solaray-Food-...203294&sr=1-6&keywords=food+carotene+capsules

I wouldn't use any products for birds that are meant for reptiles.

You just break them open and dump the powder out to use it for the birds.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

So the local Petco didn't have any Higgins, but it did have Zupreem. I picked out the one with cockatiels on it, as well as a small bag of nutriberries. Everyone's been eating it fine, but they've been leaving the yellow "banana" pieces behind. Does this matter? The pellets are all nutritionally the same regardless of color, yes?


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I don't think it matters.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

Well, Molly is trying to eat the yellow ones, but their odd shape causes them to boomerang away. : / I wonder if she's doing it on purpose... If she just left her head down they'd at least stay in the dish. The round ones she bites, sets down, then continues eating.

I've also included a picture of Karl's other side, and Gary beak, because while he isn't near as bad as Karl, he's been on the same diet for his (2 yrs?) life, and has some chipping as well.


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

Hi Frizzle, just want to give you the following advice: 

Do NOT buy your tiel's food from Walmart---there is a reason why they can boast the lowest prices on their goods. Stay away from Wild Harvest. They tested positive for melamine contamination a few years ago and they had to do a recall. One of the products to be recalled was a seed stick for cockatiels. They import their ingredients from certain countries to keep costs down. The Kaytee brand also did TWO recalls this year---once due to high levels of vitamin D and later due to Salmonella in their food for small rodents. So I personally don't trust Kaytee. You can click on the link below to see a thread regarding brands from Walmart and my very detailed report on it all:

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32644&highlight=Wild+Harvest

I believe ZuPreem is a good brand and I always highly recommend Harrison's which is what Sunny is on---it's the only brand that boasts 100% organic bird food. As to seeds, Sunny is on the Hagen Gourmet Cockatiel Seed Mix which I also trust to be a good brand.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

Yup, I've bred & raised mice in the past, and figured that the "Don't buy small animal products from Walmart" applied to birds as well.

*Just to clarify, the Walmart foods that the birds were on was because that's what their previous owners could afford.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Annie, Totally Organics pelleted bird food is also 100% organic too. So now Harrison's has a competitor. 

And Gary doesn't looke nearly as bad, but it does look like he may have some issues going on as well. Herbal extracts in all their water, along with Carotene supplements, Full Spectrum Lighting (FSL), and diet changes would benefit all of these birds.


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

bjknight93 said:


> Annie, Totally Organics pelleted bird food is also 100% organic too. So now Harrison's has a competitor.
> 
> And Gary doesn't looke nearly as bad, but it does look like he may have some issues going on as well. Herbal extracts in all their water, along with Carotene supplements, Full Spectrum Lighting (FSL), and diet changes would benefit all of these birds.


Oh really? I've never heard of Totally Organics. I wonder if it has made its way to Canada yet? Maybe it is cheaper than Harrison's? I will have to call some vet clinics to inquire.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

http://www.totallyorganics.com/

You can see where you can get it in Canada: http://totallyorganics.com/support.php#Canada 

They sell them on www.foryourbird.com (which is where I get my Higgins from).

Direct link to purchase: http://www.foryourbird.com/page/foryourbird/CTGY/totorg

I think maybe next time I buy seed I will buy a pound to try it so I only have to pay shipping once. My tiels are picky about their pellets though so I'm always reluctant to try new things.


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## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

Wow, the website looks great! (Don't they all??? )

So it has made its way to Canada and the closest location for me is the one located in the city of Mississauga-----the other extreme end from my city (Scarborough) within the Greater Toronto Area.  I will have to see how much it would cost me including shipping and all since it is still a bit far for me to get to.  I will also compare the ingredients they use with those used by Harrison's to see if there is a drastic difference.


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## jan_ellison (Oct 29, 2012)

*Larry loves brussel sprouts*

I have tried all different veggies, but so far Larry's favorites seem to be: brussel sprouts - I leave a whole one in his cage and he rips it to shreds and eats quite a bit too.... a toy ball and a food. He also likes green beans, asparagus and melted cheese (like in a sandwich). Larry thinks he is a person, so if I put the food on my plate.... he will eat it. He also loves veggie juice (we juice our veggies every day for breakfast). If I am drinking it, Larry thinks it must be good. He is trying desperately to try my coffee .... but I am not going to let him. Funny how he thinks he needs coffee though.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

That's great he's eating better foods, make sure not to give too much cheese or dairy because tiels are somewhat lactose intolerant.


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

*veggie blend trick*

I must try the seeds lying on a bed of blended veggies, seems like an excellent trick... apart from lettuce my boys just won't touch any greens, and even the lettuce was by chance: once I put a leaf under Yoghi's nose and he bit it, then decided that he liked it, and the other two just copied him. Did you use cooked or raw veggies for the blend? maybe cooked will be better because they are stickier?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I used raw veggies and just put them into a food processor until they were very very fine.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

*Updates*

So Karl's bill looks about the same, but I feel like he's gained some weight. From the sounds of it all seed diets make for skinny birds? So it makes sense that he seems a little more robust. *(Since he has had zupreem & nutriberries in the diet for about a week+ vs. the all seed diet he was on when I got him)

I found a sticky here for gauging the weight, I'll probably do that tomorrow. I moved them into the "new" (refurbished) cage tonight, so I don't want to mess with them as they settle in for bed time. It's 23" X 33" X 45" and the birds are thrilled! This is the first time the boys have had a cage big enough that they don't have to share a perch. : ) I'll be posting picture after Christmas, as I should have all their toys and hopefully a perch playground on the top.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

All seed diets aren't related to either fatness or skinniness; the bird's weight will depend on how many calories it eats and how much exercise it gets, not the type of food that it eats. An all seed diet is related to health problems (especially liver disease) in the long run, so it's best to teach him to eat some healthy new foods.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Liver disease, a result of an all-seed diet, can cause weight loss. Also, seed diets can cause malnourishment.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Yes, an illness can lead to weight loss since it interferes with the body's ability to absorb nutrients.


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

Well, I felt Karl up, and while he isn't fleshed out as well as he should be (in sticky), he has definitely put on some muscle. :3 I am so happy for him!

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=17680&highlight=weight+chart


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## Frizzle (Nov 12, 2012)

*Updated bill picture!*

Hey everybody! Just wanted to give an update as to Karl's bill, while it's not perfect, it's a fair bit better.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

It does look better. Have you had it trimmed or is that from natural wear? How are the others doing?


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## BabyMoo (Dec 19, 2012)

bjknight93 said:


> I found Allie one day as I was browsing Ebay Classifieds. Her ad was way out of the search radius, so it was a miracle for me to have seen the ad. She was located about 30 minutes from my hometown..which is about a 5 hour drive from me. She was for sale with 3 other cockatiels..she was listed as "a crippled whiteface hen" for $40. So we went to North Texas, gambled in the casino across the Oklahoma border, and picked Allie up on the way back home.
> 
> So yes, Allie is a rescue, but on a personal level. The town she was located in would not have given her vet care; and even if they did the vets around there are incompetent.


Allie's story broke my heart. How does a beautiful baby get so abused? I'm so glad you found her. Bless your heart. You are good person. Thank you for sharing. The best to your tiels.


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