# Molting Periods



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/molting-periods.html

Above is a link to an article I am working on. I still have more info and pix to add such as feather abnormalities such as stress bars, etc.

While answering BuddyD's questions as to FINI (thanks!) it got me reading and I was surprised to learned that there is molting periods, and that by the time a bird is a year old it is on the 4th set of plumage. But it may be a way to determing the age of a bird under 1-2 years old (??)

Any thought/ideas to include in the article are appreciated.


----------



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*My thoughts and QUESTIONS*

Susanne i read your text and actually had a bit of a problem relateing it to my feather deficent chicks. ( Stages -due to their being younger than all sighted)

But I want to ask about the last paragraphs.

>>>>>>>>>"Malnutrition can affect the time of a normal molt and the health of developing feather. A molt increases a birds metabolic rate and a demand for protein. When the diet contains insufficient energy or protein the bird may undergo a partial molt. Other causes of abnormal molts are unnatural lighting conditions and environmental or disease related stress factors. 

A chick can develop stress marks or hunger traces while in the pin feather stage from erratic feeding from the parents, or nutritional deficiencies. Once the chick is feather these abnormalities to the feathers can be seen as shown in the illustration below."<<<<<<<<<<


The first line makes me wonder just HOW early the Molt or problems of devloping featers can occur. Could the probelm start at the looseing of the DOWN? So that what looked like Plucking was actually insufficent Growth?

Also if forced into this early Molt at that very young age when crops are very small and if the parent feedings are deficent already couldn't the Metabolic rate problems act like a catch 22 situation and one diffenciency make the other worse?This may be compounded by the fact that with new borns and foul weather ( Rain or cold or excesive heat out doors) they in the nest box are kept strictly indoor sunder either Incandesatnt or flouescent Lighting.


Next does the HUNGER TRACES come first or subsiqent to the to the erratic feeding of the parenst? hence could the chick as it grows and need more Nutrion always seem to be starving? but this could be more apparent when PULLED since in the nest we don't see all the beging but in our hands we do only the Metabolic demands increase as the chick grows and ages?

Did i also understand that certain Mutations ( Cinnamons and maybe LUTINOS?) are even more pron to this problem?

So the big question is how do we make sure that parential feedings are suficient and nutrional and if in need of help at what point do we either PULL or help the feedings and with what?

BUDDY


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Buddy...In regards to your chicks problem, and the babies shown in the pix in this posting...that will be things I will cover as to abnormal plumage as I add more info to the article.

Lets start with the attached pixs. The lutino is Ringo, and the other baby is Miracle Bird.

Ringo was doing well in the nest for the first 2.5 weeks. The parents were great feeders. One day I cheeked the boxes and Ringo's crop was really large. It did not look like there was an recent droppings in the box, so I brought the baby inside. I watched for several hours and there were no droppings. When I looked at the abdomen it was hard and the intestines looked very swollen and ropey looking thru the skin...so off to the vet.

Come to find out it was an impaction of the digestive tract. The vet did Sib-Q fluids and got Ringo to pass some droppings. They were hard and claylike, and wound up being stuff from the cuttlebone. I had noticed that the parents had started really chowing down on the cuttlebone after the baby hatched and I had replaced it and the 2nd one was almost gone. It took several days of Sub-Q fluids to pass all of the impacted stuff in the GI tract. 

Side note: Since then you couldn't pay me to offer cuttlebone to any of my birds. I have had this happen to 1 adult and another baby. When a bird actively chows down on the cuttlebone it is an alert that it is in need of calcium. Cuttlebone is inorganic and not easily assimulated in the body. Organic forms of calcium from plants, etc are better assimulated and used in the body.

If you look at Ringos feathers, they look ratty. The spread wing shows the hunger bar (also called stress bar). This is when digestion was interuped because of the impaction. Since it is a wide bar the stress was approx 2 days worth of interuped feather growth. It shows that there was a decreased amino acids available to the growing feather.

Mirclale Baby (MB) was a little one I found this spring that had an impacted mouth and throat from sloppy feeding parents. She also had a piece of bedding lodged 1/4 way down the neck. The only way to get food in her was to use a thin tube to get past the blockage. If you look at her wing you can see some banding (stress marks) on her flights and covets. Even though when pulled she did not have pin feathers they were growing under the skin and the banding is a guage to show the disruped intake of nutrients. By the time she was weaned she was normal weight and feathers looked good with the exception of the stress marks. I just looked at her a little bit ago. She still has her adolesant plimage so she has not molted out the abnormal feathers. The other birds that weaned out the same time as her are halfway thru a molt, so I'm suspecting her early problems have slowed down the onset of the adolesant molt.


Soooo...in answer to your first question nutritional problems that affect the feather and later molts can start from the time they hatch. Looking at the down is hard to guage health. The only exception is when the chicks down has a wet stringy look...it is a good indication of a yeast problem. The most common guage is to examine the feathers once they are fully grown out.

As to cinnamon...I don't know what difference they have in feather structure versus other birds...but whatever it is just affect the depth of dolor of the feather when exposed to sunlight. it is not an indication of any health problems.

If the parents feed is sufficient you should have a steady daily growth. Any assistance would be if the parents are not doing a good job feeding or your in question on growth.

My 'Watch Me Grow' album shows the growth...
http://s246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/justcockatiels/Watch Me Grow/


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I was surprised to learned that there is molting periods, and that by the time a bird is a year old it is on the 4th set of plumage. But it may be a way to determing the age of a bird under 1-2 years old (??)


I suspect that individual molting patterns are too unpredictable for that. Squeebis didn't have his first molt until he was 15 months old! Local climate can affect the pattern too - birds that have a definite contrast in seasons will typically molt once or twice a year, while birds that have pleasant temperatures year-round may have a series of mini-molts instead.


----------



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Had I seen the second Thumbnail in your last post Susanne*

I don't know if I explained what i saw well enough or if the words did it justice but the naked chick with it wings out in the upper right corner of the Text excerpt is very similar to what FINI looked like when i mentioned that FINI looked bigger than normal and FINI"S wings looked very long. That was because even though your Pictured chick looks much less mature than FINI did when I grew concerned the posture and feathering as well as the extended wings are almost i identical.

This gives me some concern that all the chicks from this pairing may not have been getting the Nutrition they needed. I mean while all of you kept saying PLUCKED I never saw any scalps or blood feathers and didn't see down, pins of developing feathers disappear.

However I did see all of them have much less coverage than any chick pictures any of you posted including the Lutino chick in the text page . 
The most different thing I have ever noticed was ( aside from FINI resembling the stretched winged naked chick) was that none of my chicks from this pair ever had pins for their crest or at least very little.

On the other hand when I Pretty Momma the first hen and she laided with Chicks in the nest she attempted to pull the chicks out the nest through the Hole by grabbing them on their Crest and tugging . I was mystified when I first saw some pins gone but then i actually witnessed Momma pulling.

However all four of the chicks I now have from this paring didn't really have crest or much any way and the bare spots when on the back of their heads ,necks, and backs.

Then came Fini who seemed to be NAKED but growing well and large ( a perceived description since FINI was attaining the right size and weight but Naked.

As i said in another reply when I felt FINI's crop fro parent feedings, it did fit the firm bean bag feel. So I am now wondering If having the same Male but different Hen i assumed that these chicks would receive the same parental care as the previus 9 only if I now guess Drago may have been doing the same but Sweetie being inexperienced didn't help. Add to this that they kept mating and laying with out interruption appx every 2-3 weeks to produce a never ending chain of eggs.

Further more as this continued I suspect that Sweetie may have PLUCK one or another to gain control of the nest when she was caring the next clutch of eggs.

I also suspect that as she/ they continued to lay the rate of fertility decreased and the Disorders increased in severity to the point that only 1 in 4-5 eggs would hatch and each with less and less PLUMAGE.This probably was caused by my previous breeding experiences telling me that the PARENTS are always bettr providers than I can hope to be. But while this is Sweeties first Layings , MOMMA was a habitual layer when i bought her and was considerably older than Drago , hence knew much better what her Offspring needed and Drago being younger had the stamina to fill in when she did' tor neede a brake.

This is all hind sight and speculation on my part now having seen/ heard the malnutrition and molting. feather development problems. 

However I am now watching with keen attention the 4 eggs last laid, while hand feeding FINI who while feathering allover the body still doesn't have any STANDING crest and NO Tail feathers bar One straggly pin.

So I intend to wait till the 30 of this month and if none hatch i will discard all the eggs and remove the nest.( the first egg would have be 21 days old on the 19and each subsequent egg two days later -21,23,25. I assume a 5 day addition should be adequate extra timing )

I am seeing FINI pick and Millet and Pellets and occasional greens on his own and i will continue to hand feed Fini cutting down the amount till FINI tries to feed Himself. But I will-not introduce the NEST box again till MAYBE next YEAR.

I hope I haven't sounded like I was trying to produce a tiel chick factory but the more I learn and read from your very informative and helpfully supportive TEXT( THANKS SUSANNE) the more i realize not all hatching chicks are as we are told is normal and some times we see unrecognizably UNUSUAL disorders. I truly think I have seen a few with these chicks. 

BUDDY


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Are you saying that FINI did not have any down upon hatching? Most down can vary from sparce to normal are shown in the pix's. 

I read somewhere that Viramin B2 (riboflavin defeciency can contribute to clubbed (don't know what that looks like) down feathers. It is an important vitamin for the egg, and a large amount is used in the albumin of the egg. Defeciency of B2 also contribute to reduced hatchability.

Do you use any insecticides in the nestbox? Organophosphorus can contribute to abnormal feathering.


----------



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Sorry if I gave any false or contradictory replies.*

Susanne NO! Fini did have down when hatched. In Fact it changed to a soft fuzzy Whitish looking fluff that made me think he was going to be PIED. But then as PINS should have taken the place of that and covered Fini's body his Primary Flights came in but not before he sat with his BARE wings extended like your Photo. Only Fini was older and Bigger than your pictured Chick,and with No Pins for his flights, his wings gave the IMPRESSION of being abnormally large) and next Fini developed what I called "Five O'clock Shadow" or the very beginning of Pins ( stubble) in some places and then Looked like the attached Photo that I added in another post , where I also said ;

>>>>>This last chick took so long to Plum it looked deformed since it was all but full sized before it even devloped it's Primary Flights ( makeing it wings look extremely long since it didn't fold them at it's side) Even now as it has pin feathers and fluff allover it's Body and some fairly long Primary Flights and seems to be strong and independent , it had only 2 pin feathers in it's tail and NO Crest Pins at all yet bur I can see the shadow developing.

In fact the Body feathers are devloped enough for even my untrained eyes to see that this chick is going to be another heavy PIED chick with a lot of WHITE plumage I suspect it may even have large white areas on it's head.

But It is now 4 + weeks old and has no where near the feather coverage as most I see pictured here.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I am trying to regress to what my thoughts and impressions where when i first viewed FINI's developmnet but was told he like his siblings where being Plucked to that point. Only Now when I viewed the Abnormal feathering write up you made i amgetting a much different impression with PIXs and info I had no knowledg of before, but which look and sound very much like FINI.

Unfortuneately I didn't tak eOIXs when Hatched nor when he had flightless long wings. But i may have mentioned that in a PM to you Susanne?

BUDDYD


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Tha baby in my photo was about 3 days old...with an impacted throat that kept food from going into the crop. It had probably gone on a day to have the toes curl and the wings outstretched, and another day would have been dead.

From your above pix's the grey fuzz on FINI is his down feathers. The few dark feathers growing in on wings are new flight feathers replacing the plucked ones. The tail feather looks like it is abnormal...but it may have also been an ingrown feather, and the pressure against the skin while growing forced it out. This could have been from plucking or biting in this area as the pins were forming.


----------



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

*Really I think Iunderstand and apprciate YOUR replies.*

Susanne i understand the differences of the Chicks in your PIXs. I was trying to say that while FINI was much older( weeks not days) Fini looked very much like the Posture and feathering development/ Placement .

Fini did have some long pin type flights ( long pin shafts with the tips jst opening) on the ends of his wings, Fini did have what you call downy feathers on his lower back and flanks,( this did become stubble) But to this day thay is all the Tail feathers Fini has, despite being out the parents cage for weeks now and other feathering developing.


From what I read in your Molting/ feathering abnormalities about malnourishment ( both in the Nest and hand feeding) I am all but sure that Fini and some of siblings have experienced those very causes. i have no doubt that Fini and his siblings again did get SOME Plucking to hasten them out the nest for the next laying.

I really admitt ALL this very reluctantly and embarrassingly. I want to Know how to BEST furnish the OPTIMUM Nutrition DIET that would supply what SHOW Quality Tiels should be feed.

I can and have supplied what most Tiels need and even supplement that with additives. But from the sound of what i am reading My chicks aren't getting what they need from one or both of their parents. and the parent Birds need B complex Vitamins or other Supplements that Normal food stuffs I am giving them aren't providing all of them.

From the looks of this current Clutch NONE are going to hatch. So I have a year or more to correct what I am doing wrong. What do I do since this is NEW / Different that what happened 5 years ago.( Chicks looked fine and had a better hatch rate) 

Or are my parents the fault. One too old and the other Too young and inexperienced? OR am I too old and inexperienced for their GOOD?

BUDDYD


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I think the correction would be a new hen. Retire this hen. If she can be hand tamed a single pet home may be the best for her.

I beleive nutrition is just a minor problem, and it may not be the diet at fault, but the way the babies are being fed by the parents. It sounds like Drago is doing his job, but if the hen is doing most of the feeding the first week of life they may not be getting much benefit or even enoigh from her and that will affect feathering...in addition to plucking. You have a past history with Drago and Momma and you did not encounter any of these problems then...


----------



## BuddyD (Jun 4, 2009)

Actually I did have one incident of Momma trying to rush the departure of chicks by tugging on their crest but when some of the chicks wouldn't comply one Lutino chick actually took a turn setting on the eggs ( so to speak)

But they all where much better feathered . Only they where much less hand tame since they where for the most part parent feed and reared. But even then Drago was the better brooder. I actually got the idea this was normal since I did see him feed Momma as well as any chicks while She was sitting on the eggs.

In Fact that is why I did think these Chick would be even better nurtured and feed with my pulling them and hand feeding all of them as well from 2-3 weksof age. But since Drago is the older mate this time I Guess he is running himself down , hence the infertility of the clutches.

But most important is 2 things. I want to make sure all get the very best nutrition (B complex etc.)for all. However I am not disputing any of your suggestions even if it looks that way. I am saying that from what I have read and can understand there is a huge possibility that ALL these chicks didn't get what that needed Nutritionally and maybe even Drago and Sweetie as well and it got worse with each sequential clutch with no breaks. This IMHO could have made the PLUCKING and continued laying situation even more dangerous to all of the birds.

So for what I am responsible for I want to make changes. Only I don't kno wwhat I need to do to supply the very best foods they need.

BUDDYD


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...with this paiting, with future clutches pull them at 2 weeks to see how they do. If they feather out alright then it is unlikely that it is nutritional and that one parent is at fault for aggressively preening then plucking.


----------

