# 14 days old



## hoshikou (Feb 26, 2010)

they are loosing thier fluff now its getting hard to tell which is panda (the white one) im glad it still has its fluff

more baby pictures http://s17.photobucket.com/home/hoshi-kou/index
also if anyone around the nottinghamsire (uk) area want to purchase the other two (not the white one) when they are ready private message me.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If you can figure out which chick doesn't have an orange cheek spot growing in, you'll know which one is Panda!


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## hoshikou (Feb 26, 2010)

tielfan said:


> If you can figure out which chick doesn't have an orange cheek spot growing in, you'll know which one is Panda!


panda still has some white fluff so i can tell ty for the advice


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## heatheri004 (Aug 10, 2009)

OMG, super cute!


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## seaofdreams (Dec 29, 2009)

You really should clean that nextbox, your babies are very fragile and can get very sick. It would be horrible if you lost one or all of them to something as easily avoidable as a bacterial infection.


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## hoshikou (Feb 26, 2010)

seaofdreams said:


> You really should clean that nextbox, your babies are very fragile and can get very sick. It would be horrible if you lost one or all of them to something as easily avoidable as a bacterial infection.


this was the day after I cleaned it they are realy messy... theres nothing i can do about it, and im not going to clean them out everday when in the wild they dont clean there nests. plus the last two cluches were fine being cleaned out once ever few weeks


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Here's a helpful hint for next time you clean the nest. A small piece of cardboard works well for scraping off poop that's stuck to the side of the box. There will still be some residue but that's OK. I don't try to wash it off because moisture encourages bacteria growth and might do more harm than good.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

You really should clean that nextbox, your babies are very fragile and can get very sick. It would be horrible if you lost one or all of them to something as easily avoidable as a bacterial infection.
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On the other hand I *do not* clean out nestboxes until the babies are pulled.  The chicks have inherited an immunity from the mother thru the yolk sac they have absorbed, and this is their protection for the first few weeks of life. I prefer to leave the nestbox alone which also allows the chick to strengthen it's immune system to the environment around it.

The ONLY time I will clean a nestbox is if it gets excessively wet and soggy. And if this happens this also lets me know there is a problem going on. Either the parents feeding excessive fluids, or a yeast or digestive problem is suspect, then I have to learn why rather than remove bedding and assume things are fine. I prefer to leave the droppings in the box so that I can monitor them daily for any changes.

If the bedding is yucky, I will just top drerss it with fresh bedding only. I have done this for years with absobultely no ill effects to the chicks.


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## Teegzy (Nov 21, 2009)

I must say I disagree. When I raised my green cheeks I cleaned the brooder everyday. Theres no need to keep them laying in their own filth & pooh. It gets stuck to their feet & can cause all types of infections.

I dont think sitting in their own poop will Boost their immunity either " srtiels". If anything, it is going to make them sick. We as human beings can keep the nest clean for them, to rid of diseases & sickness. I think it's silly to just put new layers ontop if the old. The whole box should be cleaned. In you saying that, it reminds me of a horrible petbarn over this way that has layers & layers like 10cm's thick of pooh then straw then poop then straw & paper & so on. It disgusts me and makes me wonder about the wellbeing of the animals, and let me tell you, they dont look happy nor Clean for that matter in the petbarn.

You do not need extra poo to keep the box humid & warm, and the previous poop that is already stuck to the box & the bedding will help with that. Plus the chicks will be pooping right away anyway, and they have siblings to snuggle to to keep warm. I would rather them snuggle into eachother than snuggle into poop. If someone is ever worried about the humidity int he box, you can wet a cotton call & place it in a plastic bird safe lid and prop it in a corner.

I bet captive/pet birds live alot longer & healthier than wild birds do, due to our help. This is my point, in cleaning the box we are doing a world of good/help for them all. But we all have opinions, and we learn in different ways. So take what advice you feel true and do your best


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## seaofdreams (Dec 29, 2009)

A chick will build a natural immunity up from the food its parents feed it and the bacteria present in the nextbox anyway, keeping the chicks in a dirty nestbox isn't necessary. I'm not advocating scrubbing the box clean with a disinfectant every day but removing the solid waste and replacing the bedding is far better than leaving the babies to spend the first few weeks of their lives in a nasty nextbox.

In the wild baby birds may raise their chicks in a dirty nest but captive bred birds are generally larger, more robust and have a much lower chick mortality rate. If you were such a stickler for raising your pet in the most natural ways possible then you wouldn't handraise them, keep them in cages or treat them with veterinary medicine.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*We as human beings can keep the nest clean for them, to rid of diseases & sickness*.
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A bird, either the parents or chicks should be healthy and free of illnesses and diseases to begin with. Whether the box is cleaned or not has no impact on if a bird/baby that is genetically weak or has an illness or disease is going to fail to thrive or live.

_*A chick will build a natural immunity up from the food its parents feed it and the bacteria present in the nextbox anyway*_

No, the only thing that the chick will get from the parents as they are feeding is the parents own bacteria from their crops as they regurgitate food. If something is wrong with the parents then that gets passed to the chick.

Do a little reading as to the immune system. You will find that the hen passes a matenal immunity in the yolk, which gets passed to the chick, and gets in the chicks system as it absorbs the yolk (simple terms) This added immunity lasts for up to 3 weeks. After 3 weeks the chick is further deveoping a strong immune system.

Keeping the nestbox clean is a human thing, not a bird thing. If it concerned them so much they would be removing the soaled bedding on their own.

From my own personal experiences I have found their is absolutely no need to change the bedding, and if there is because it is excessively wet or foul smelling it is a 'heads up' to a potential problem.


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## Teegzy (Nov 21, 2009)

Just wondering srtiels, Is this your own opinion as to the fact is says you have over
50 cockatiels, meaning you breed them excessively possibly? Maybe you dont have the
time to go around cleaning each nest box yourself. As for the original post, I think if she
has the time, its in her best interests to take a little time out of her day to keep the
bubs clean & happy. Preventing poop stuck to their feet ect. Dont you agree?


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## Teegzy (Nov 21, 2009)

hoshikou said:


> they are loosing thier fluff now its getting hard to tell which is panda (the white one) im glad it still has its fluff
> 
> more baby pictures http://s17.photobucket.com/home/hoshi-kou/index
> also if anyone around the nottinghamsire (uk) area want to purchase the other two (not the white one) when they are ready private message me.




It looks as though panda will be the only one without the orange cheek spots by that photo  I dont think you have to much to worry about  They are sooooo cute!​


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## seaofdreams (Dec 29, 2009)

Perhaps you should get off your high horse and stop being so condescending. Your assumption that nobody can possibly understand how the immune system functions is completely off the mark. 
In "simple terms" the immune system is an adaptive system and is strengthened by exposure to pathogens (infectious or harmful organisms) The immune system is part genetic, yes but much of it develops later in life. Pathogens including bacteria thrive in the gut of a parent bird which exposes the chick to these thus strengthening their immune function. By removing solid wastes from the nest box, a sufficient yet reasonably harmless number of bacteria remain which then encourage the chicks immune systems to develop. Leaving a chick to sleep and eat in it's own feces is disgusting and uneccesary.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Just wondering srtiels, Is this your own opinion as to the fact is says you have over
50 cockatiels, meaning you breed them excessively possibly?
------------------------------------------------

Actually now I am down to under 2 dozen tiels. At one time 800, average 1,000 or more babies per year, WITHOUT over breeding any one particular pair. I also had a vet that I had do a couple of home visits and flock inspections per year, and he had no complaints on how I kept the boxes, and was very impressed over the health and quality of the chicks. Therefore my postings are related to my personal experiences.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*In "simple terms" the immune system is an adaptive system and is strengthened by exposure to pathogens (infectious or harmful organisms)*

And this includes their environment which is the bedding in the box.


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## Teegzy (Nov 21, 2009)

srtiels said:


> Just wondering srtiels, Is this your own opinion as to the fact is says you have over
> 50 cockatiels, meaning you breed them excessively possibly?
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> Actually now I am down to under 2 dozen tiels. At one time 800, average 1,000 or more babies per year, WITHOUT over breeding any one particular pair. I also had a vet that I had do a couple of home visits and flock inspections per year, and he had no complaints on how I kept the boxes, and was very impressed over the health and quality of the chicks. Therefore my postings are related to my personal experiences.


It seems you took that quite personal, when in fact I mean since you breed
so many cockatiels at once, you did not have the time to go around to each
and every box and personally clean them out & keep things tidy & free from
some problems that may arise. We are all hare to help eachother out and
just trying to give the original poster some advice that she can either
leave or forget. Do with it what she may.



srtiels said:


> *In "simple terms" the immune system is an adaptive system and is strengthened by exposure to pathogens (infectious or harmful organisms)*
> 
> And this includes their environment which is the bedding in the box.


As seaofdreams mentioned, There is "enough" bacteria in the box still
after cleaning it AND coming from the parents, so no need to leave EXTRA
filth, poop, slime & bacteria to grow. It almost seems selfish... when we
can help them out a bit. Would you keep putting sheets on sheets ontop
of your dirty bed sheets instead of cleaning them out instead & applying
new sheets? Or doing so to a childs bed. I understand it's human Vs Bird
but come on here, we are insain bird lovers. Do the best for our pets.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Nope, I am simply stating my opinions and experiences, and have found there is no need to change out nestboxes. I have also found out that in not doing so the parents were more calmer. It eliminated the problems of some pairs plucking chicks because to the changes made to the inside of the box. 

I have been on enough forums for many years, and also listened to the heartbreak of a breeder in tears because they changed the bedding and the parents abandoned or harmed the chicks.

In my first year I did change bedding, and learned that that does not stop health problems if there is an existing problem, or enviromental issues causing stress that is transferred to the chicks. I then did a group of pairs that I did not change the bedding on. In comparison the chicks in the boxes that were not changed did just as well as the others boxes did. And I noticed that with one pair that had been pluckers of the chicks starting at 2 to 2.5 weeks of age also did not pluck. Feather growth was better in the uncleaned boxes because there was a better level of humidity. Yeast and sour crop problems were also non-existant, which made me realize that many of these problems are not from the nestbox environment, but due to other enviromental factors (heat, stress) but from the parents or the types of foods fed.


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## hoshikou (Feb 26, 2010)

people keep telling me to clean the nest box everytime i take a photo and post it, it has been maybe 2 days after i cleaned it, and i think it pointless to clean it eveyday they get cleaned out once or twice a week depending on how dirty the box looks.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Teegzy, you're new here so you wouldn't know this, but srtiels is the most knowledgeable person on this forum. It's amazing how much she knows about obscure cockatiel problems, and many people here (and their birds) have benefited from her advice. If she says it's safe to not clean the nestbox you can be 99.9% sure that it generally IS safe. If you have actual evidence to the contrary that's one thing, and it's fine to present that evidence for friendly discussion. But a "my opinion versus yours" type of argument won't be very productive, because everyone who's been here for a while is aware that srtiels knows what she's talking about.

srtiels, is a dirty nestbox potentially harmful to a weak chick with a poor immune system? That's the one situation I can think of where cleaning might make a difference in the outcome. The dirt could help strengthen the immune system but on the other hand it could overwhelm the immune system completely.


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## Ezzie (Jan 19, 2010)

I agree with Tielfan, srtiels has been here far longer then you, i and many other people on this fourm, She gives amazing advice and is an amazing breeder with great posts and information. Im sure changing the bedding everyday may do more harm to the babies (in terms of stress and being in a new environment every day of their little lives, If you think about it, Its like changing our bed rooms around every day and frantically cleaning everything, It would cause stress to us right?) then leaving it for every few days, I mean, Extra cleaning is a human trait right? You wouldnt find the flocks in the wild going out of their way to clean ever nook and cranny of the nesting area, And their chicks grow to be healthy and free, Not to menction adorable and amazing to watch in flight. I agree with placing new bedding over the less desirable bedding but again, this might not always be nessecary.
I know little to nothing about breeding tiels, But am always looking to learn something new and reading these breeding posts always has something to learn from. I personally think changing the bedding is the breeders own decision, especially if they are co-raising it with the chicks parents, Of course we want the best of our little birds, but if there is no harm done to the chick (unless you have hard evidence to proove me otherwise) then i dont think it matters if the bedding is not changed every day. And, lastly before i pop out of the thread, in the picture, the babies arnt actualy sitting in a whole lot of the droppings, it is simply in the corners and the edges, so its not as if they are in it all the time, and they can move around too, So thats a bonus. I think the babies look amazing, healthy and regards to the nest box, they look to be having no distress from the conditions they may be in!


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## seaofdreams (Dec 29, 2009)

Nobody was saying that what srtiels was saying is wrong but her reasoning is not supported by factual information, only her own experiences and the manner in which she speaks to others on this site is incredibly rude and patronising. 
I have no doubt that with her years of experience that she has a wealth of knowledge to share but I don't think I have ever recieved a reply from her that wasn't condescending in some way. This site should be a place where people who haven't got the experience or knowledge to come and seek it out without being made to feel like an idiot.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> the babies arnt actualy sitting in a whole lot of the droppings, it is simply in the corners and the edges


This is nature's way of keeping the nest somewhat clean. The babies back up to the edge of the nest to do their duty and it ends up on the walls.



> I don't think I have ever recieved a reply from her that wasn't condescending in some way.


On a message board we don't have all the body-language clues that we'd have in a live conversation, and it can be very easy to misunderstand the tone of a post. I don't think that anyone here is condescending, but we all bring something different to the forum and that will have an influence on what we take away from it. My own writing style leans toward big words and formality, and anybody who thinks srtiels is condescending probably thinks the same thing about me. Which doesn't bother me by the way. You can't please everybody, and no group is going to get along in perfect harmony. This group does better than most!


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## Cheryl (Dec 27, 2008)

Its easy to take anything offensive when you read it online. That is the downside with this whole "internet" thing. I find srtiels an extremely knowledgeable upfront person. Personally, I do take things offensive easily especially when someone says I did something wrong or says something that I should have known so I kinda see where you are coming from, but it is NO reason to attack the person. I've always been very defensive especially when someone says "No" to what I say, but they aren't trying to run at you and tackle you and I guess its just a part of my insecurity and 'need to be right' :blink:. To my knowledge she has never called anyone here stupid or anything of the sorts. So try not to jump to that conclusion unless that is said. We are all different ages, from different places, with different cultures and experiences. Our understandings for certain things can be somewhat different especially when you can not hear the persons tone of voice or see body language over the internet.
You can't really give 'facts' or information by sweet talking. I believe she gives everything straight up how it is, and thats the way I believe it should be. I could take her experiences as facts since she has had SO MUCH experience. That is how science works.. That is how people find things out. She mentioned before how many chicks she raised a year in the past. I believe that she could get some HARD scientific FACTS out of all of the birds she had. People like her are the reason we know this much about all our birds and I'm sure shes contributed a ton to the continuously growing knowledge of our fids. She has amazing photographs and is even getting a couple books published (I'm sure she has had even more experience than the authors many of the websites and books you have read and take as 'facts')! She is helping us all out here and does not deserve to be patronized. She gives us her time, experience, and knowledge to help us understand our feathered friends more without getting ANYTHING in return. She is a valued member on this board that I believe should be treated with much more respect than what she is getting here. We are all valued members on here and we should all treat each other with respect. Please when you feel as if you are being attacked, take a break and just ignore the issue. Chances are they did not mean what you assumed ( to assume makes an a** out of you and me  ). We are all here for each other and we need to understand that.

Anyways,
Personally, I rarely clean the box. I generally cleaned the cockatiels box a couple times throughout the whole 'nesting' time. I never did clean the box when I bred my budgies and they were all fine. I think its personal preference and that either way it shouldn't effect the birds too much, unless you clean very often. The parents tend to get very stressed out when you bother them with the babies.


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## barb2birds (Mar 23, 2010)

Your new babies are so adorable. Please clean the nest box. They can get really sick for poop. My bird got a very bad bacterial infection from my cage that I keep clean more than once a day! Your babies are not in the wild. Please listen. 

Well Maybe cleaning entire nest when they are young would be too stressful for the chicks.


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## seaofdreams (Dec 29, 2009)

If you would take the time to read my post properly Cheryl, you will have read that I never discredited srtiels or treated her disrespectfully. I don't know how much you know about writing but communication isn't limited to just body language and tone of voice, language in itself is the most powerful tool we have. "Assumption" isn't the appropriate word here, an "interpretation" is what gets taken from a piece of writing like a forum post and which differs drastically from person to person and can never be considered wrong. My interpretation of srtiels private messages and replies to me in the past was that they were very patronising and abrupt. A person can share their wisdom without being rude.

No, science does not work that way. Scientific *fact* is established through the standardised scientific process of which personal experience is only the first stage. Even with a lifetime of experience, nothing a person claims can be considered a fact unless is has been through this process.

My intended point is that everything you read on this forum is personal opinion and should be taken as such. That's not to say that personal experience or opinion is defunct but it should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Cheryl (Dec 27, 2008)

If you have issues with her 'privately', please keep it that way. 
I'm really starting to get a bit on edge about this and won't continue it further on your comments towards me.

I feel like this has become completely childish. I feel somewhat ashamed for getting involved in this to begin with so I'm stopping here. Hopefully a moderator can close this thread ASAP. It has gotten way off topic a long time ago and I feel as if this has become a tad bit 'hostile' if you want to call it that. 

Back on TOPIC and why this post was even created...I apologize hoshikou that this had to happen when you were sharing the pictures of your little bubs. They are absolutely adorable! Good luck finding homes and I can't wait to see them all big.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I tend to agree with all of the above, and can understand how seaofdreams can feel my postings are offensive to her. I don't mean them to be. I simply just state just the facts from my personal experiences in a dry matter of fact manner. My concern is ONLY for the birds, and I am at fault of a humans personal feelings getting trampled on.

And no, my findings are not scientific, but also feel that if breeders gave more feedback to vets and the avian medicine community then things and thoughts in regards to current info would change. I am talking with a publisher of a major Avian Medicine book in regrards to co-authoring a book that shows health concerns and care of cockatiles from 2 perpectives. The format would be what a breeder would do, pro and con and what a vet would do and their thoughts and comments on the breeders approach to a problem.


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## xxxSpikexxx (Jul 30, 2007)

Iam going to close this thread as it has gotten quite off topic. 
If hoshikou could post another thread so we can get back on topic and watch those sweet little babies grow that would be great


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