# What did I forget in the last 5 years? Doing something wrong?



## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

Can someone possibly refresh my memory and tell me what i am doing wrong? I used to intentionally breed tiels but I stopped 5 years ago. Well those 2 pair who are now 10 and 11 years old decided this year they were both going to give me babies. I have 11 babies total, I had one clear egg and 2 DIS, but I digress. My oldest chick is 43 days old today and my youngest 32, I understand the youngest still wanting/needing the hand feedings but the oldest I forget when they should be weaning. I am seeing ads for tiels for sale and they are saying just turned 6 week already weaned. And I am like  what am I doing wrong?? I was going to keep and add the pearl female to my flock, and I put her in the cage with the rest of my birds and her father provokes her to feed her, she accepts it but I'd say maybe to the equivalent of 1cc, but overnight he plucked the back of her head bald! So this morning I removed her from the cage and put her back with the babies. She is 42 day old and refusing my hand feedings.
This is not my first time with babies, it's my 6th actually but like I said I can't remember 5 years back and I lost my records in a move. So my question is, am I doing things right and are these people actually selling partially weaned babies at 6 weeks old or am I doing something wrong and feeding them when I shouldn't be? I would appreciate any input with this. I have people asking me when are they going to be ready to go to their new homes and I just don't have an answer for that.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Those people are wrong. It takes babies 8-12 weeks to fully wean. My parent fed babies always seemed to take a little longer. Since she was still asking dad for feedings she not fully done and you can continue to offer it to her til she refuses it for several days in a row. 60 days is around a good weaning time (two months old) and I would never buy or sell a bird younger than that. They'd easily regress at that age. So no, you are not doing anything wrong!!!


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## Erinsmom (Sep 7, 2012)

Those ads selling babies that are not weaned make me ill honestly. Most of mine have self weaned about 7 weeks but I think that has to do with the schedule I use. My babies are feed an extra feed everyday compared to charts I have seen on the subject and they are introduced to millet then fresh very young. I also send about 2 weeks of all the foods the babies eat even the fresh home with them . It really seems to make a huge difference in their adapting as while everything changes around them the food they KNOW. 

I have also found that when the babies start refusing feeds they will still take that night one about 7-9 pm ...that always makes me feel good that they get a nice full crop before bed so just because she refuses during the day i would try that time of night too. Your not doing anything wrong your being responsible...sad more people aren't.


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## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thank you very much! I did not think that a 6 week old baby could possibly be fully weaned. In the past I have always kept the babies for a week when they refuse ALL hand feeding offerings, and then an additional week to make sure they are maintaining their weight with eating on their own. Right now the seed I feed is Kaytee Forti-Diet FDPH Safflower Cockatiel, Zupreem fruit pellets, millet spray and on occassion unsalted popcorn, and cheerios. The fresh foods they don't have a problem with. They do seem to refuse all the feedings and then really get aggressive (not in the fighting way) to eat the 11-15cc's. But I said to my husband, I know it has been a few years and my memory isn't that great anymore and like I said my records were lost in a move, but I thought there is NO way a baby that young is fully weaned. So thank you very much for reassuring me I was doing it right and they are on schedule.
One quick question about the formula you guys use. I always used Kaytee Exact, but this time I am very dissatisfied with it, no matter what I do it gets very very thin by the time I get to the 3rd baby. I can thicken it with more formula, baby cereal it doesn't matter it will just start to run off the spoon like water, it doesn't matter if I leave the bowl on the warmer and then suck it up with the syringe or fill the syringes and set them in warm water. So I am going to try switching to Zupreem Embrace, this will be the first time I am using it, any opinions on Zupreem? Also I understand Instant Ounces isn't available anymore??I used to add that to my formula all the time. I had babies that were over 102g with that stuff, now they are coming in in the 70's and 80's. To me that is just too small because I know what I used to have size wise. I never learned to tube feed unfortunatley but I need to get some more meat on some of these guys. Sorry for all the questions, like I said it has been 5 years and other then the actual hand feeding, the schedules of what they should be doing when just totally escaped me.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

70-80g is about the size of most tiels now. Its really hard to find big sized babies anymore. Even the standard set for tiels is changing because tiels in the wild aren't as big as our domesticated ones. I've never used Embrace, I can only get Exact on the island, but its made by Zupreem so I wouldn't be worried about it. One thing though (and this may be why the babies are smaller) you're not supposed to feed over 10cc's to the babies in a feed and its really recommended to feed only 10% of the body weight. This is coming from a breeder of over 20yrs and her babies were always huge. So maybe try going that route for the next set of babies and see if they increase in size?


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## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

That is interesting but yet good to know. I am using the same schedule I always did that the breeder who taught me to hand feed gave me, and at a certain age (it escapes me right now) you can feed 11-15cc's. And they gobble that right up at the night time feeding. I will try backing off the amount and feeding a few more times a day. 
These babies have come from my 2 pair that have given me all my babies over their 11 years, I wonder why the size difference now? My pairs are fed very well, with a variety of fresh foods, veggies, pellets, egg food, etc. I try to find the best seed for them possible. But I do appreciate the information on the size, it puts my mind a little more at ease. I don't live in a big area and everything I have to order and I would have liked the formula one yesterday  I should have that on hand even for my 2 pair and my 2 sons from their last clutch 5 years ago. Thank you again very much.


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## Erinsmom (Sep 7, 2012)

I have a pr that all of their babies grow to 100 plus grams BUT Mom is a daughter of a grand champion show tiel. Now I feed all my babies the same way and the other prs babies come in right around 80-85 grams full grown but they are smaller birds. It doesn't make sense to me that you would be getting smaller babies from the same prs. If a baby from that pr of mine was much smaller than the normal for what that pr produce I too would be concerned makes perfect sense. As far as the issue you are having with the formula...something isn't right. thats what I have always used and actually have the opposite problem as the formula sits it thickens up.

I too never go over 10ml's a feeding even for my birds that are over 100 grams. I was taught by my friend who has been breeding grand champion show tiels for over 30 years to always go smaller meals more times a day. and with the smaller babies I stay at 10% of their body weight per feed. 

You say you have to order everything in and you should have formula on hand from babies 5 yrs ago??? Hope I am not understanding that because formula doesn't keep that long.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> You say you have to order everything in and you should have formula on hand from babies 5 yrs ago??? Hope I am not understanding that because formula doesn't keep that long.


This could be why the formula isn't thickening up, which would also lead to the babies being smaller from a pair that usually produces nice big babies. It could be that they aren't getting enough nutrients or water (whichever is the problem) and it could be what's leading them to be smaller.


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## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

No I don't have formula for 5 years.  All the formula I am using is new and I don't like it. I stopped intentionally breeding 5 years ago. My 2 pair decided this year after a 5 year hiatus they were going to breed again. I didn't have anything for this "breeding season" because I got rid of all of 5 years ago when *I* said I was done with breeding. I am blaming the formula for this lower bird weight, because like I said my 1 pair all their babies in the past were over 100 grams easily, now they are coming in at 80-85, doesn't make sense to me so I have a feed place getting me Formula One, but by the time they get it in these babies may well be done hand feeding I don't know. But my other pair to have their babies weigh in in the 70's even is not unheard of. I have one of their males from the babies 5 years ago and he is 74 grams, but you wouldn't think it to look at him!  
I just don't like this new formulation of Kaytee, I know there was a recall on it, but I don't know exactly when, they thought there was too much Vitamin D in it or something and reformulated it and now I think it is crap! I thought I was going to be switching to the Zupreem embrace yesterday, I even called ahead to see if they had it in stock, they told me yes so I drove 35 mins to get it, I get there and it turned out to be Embrace Plus, I was SO mad! So I had to pick up another bag of this Kaytee Exact because I was there and I am running low. 
But with the babies that should be easily in the 100 gram area, I do blame the formula and now with them starting to refuse hand feedings I doubt I will be able to do much to get them out of the 80's up to the 100's.

I wouldn't keep anything like that for 5 years, I did in fact have a sealed container of instant ounces and when it expired I threw it out. I figure things have dates on them for a reason, whether it be for us or our animals, once it comes up on date it gets tossed in the garbage. I do apologize that everyone took my posting out of context and that I was stating I was using 5 year old formula.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Its OK, people make mistakes lol! I do think it may be the formula that is causing the lower weights because its not as thick as it used to be. You can try to fatten them up once they're weaned with millet and brown rice (not a whole lot but in moderation its good for weight gain.) Once they're about a year old they'll be at their full size/weight.


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## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

I am just so mad because when I sit and deduce it down, I am doing everything the same way I did then and the only thing different is the thinness of the formula. It's just that I know my babies could have been bigger. More weight means they would be able to fight something off a little better, etc.
They just always have to go and change a good thing and/or take it off the market! 
Thank you everyone for the replies, it all in all reassured me I wasn't "lagging behind" or keeping them hand feeding longer then is normal.

I just thought of this question: Is it possible the babies are smaller this time time because of parents ages? They are 10 and 11 years old. That kind of don't make sense to me because I would be the one feeding them once I pulled them, but is is possible the older the egg LOL like they say with us women, the older we get the "poorer" quality if you will of the egg?
Probably a very stupid question but it was worth tossing out there.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I've never thought about that before but it could be possible. I know that once a hen gets past the age of 12, she's usually not very good for breeding anymore. A lot of them will produce less eggs, some stop being able to make eggs at all. So that might have something to do with it.


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## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

Yes this little girl was always good for 5 which is what I ended up with this time, but this time she laid her 5 eggs then stopped for 10 days and then started to lay again! She laid 3 more over the course of 6 days, but 1 was clear and the other 2 ended up DIS so this was for sure a strange "breeding" season for her.
My other hen she was always good for 7, this time she laid 6 and I didn't think the first 3 were going to hatch. As soon as she started to lay she started to sit on them all day, her and her mate would both do this but at night they would get off the nest and sit out all night. They did this up until she laid the 4th egg, then they started to sit on them full time. I surely thought they were going to be DIS because of this behavior. But these guys are pets and in our living room, and it was 80+ degrees in here at the time they were laying and their cage is the closest to the heater, so the only thing we can think is the heat in here was all they needed to incubate?? LOL 
All I know is this was one strange strange breeding season. I sure am glad it is over. Although they are more then happy to start making me more!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> and it was 80+ degrees in here at the time they were laying and their cage is the closest to the heater, so the only thing we can think is the heat in here was all they needed to incubate?? LOL


That's actually exactly what probably happened. I know in FL in the summer time the birds don't even sit on the eggs. They go in and turn them and hop out of the nest again. So that's most likely what happened for you too!


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## Sapphire4373 (Feb 8, 2013)

That is great! Because those 1st three turned out to be the most vibrant yellow pearl and pied pearls, the likes of which I never got out of this pair before. So I was shocked beyond shocked when they started to hatch, but I am so glad they did. They are adorable, and so sweet.
I would post pics but I don't even know where you can store photos online anymore to share in posts.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Embrace is a good brand. The longer it sits the thicker it gets, so you may find yourself having to add warm water to it to keep it at the right thickness. My favorite so far is a half and half mixture of Zupreem Embrace and Lafeber Nutri-start. Lafeber is a nice brand too but it tends to be lumpy and it's hard to get the lumps out. Mixing the two brands together seems to bring out the best qualities of both while minimizing the negatives.

Lately I've been hearing very good things about Higgins Intune from experienced breeders (including srtiels) and I'm going to try it this year. It's not particularly easy to find, but it seems like Drs Foster and Smith is the best place to get it: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=25633


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