# Whiteface x Pastelface Breeding Journal



## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

I am so happy to announce Billie Jean and Stempie have finally started their family! She laid her first egg on Monday, so technically her 4th should have been tomorrow (Sunday) if one was laid every other day, HOWEVER today when I peeked in the nest for my first thorough look, I discovered four eggs. I took a couple quick pictures and got out so as to not disturb too much. I also very quickly touched my pen light to each egg to test for fertility and was able to determine 2 are indeed fertile as of right now.

I will post updates as they happen - I like the idea of documenting their journey to parenthood and here is as good a place as any to do it!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Congratulations on the eggs 

I do see one problem. You need ALOT more bedding in the box. With little bedding the eggs are at risk of getting cracked. And they will not get suffecient heat, and the risks of DIS are higher. When there is plenty of bedding in the box this give the eggs cushion, plus it holds heat and some moisture.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> Congratulations on the eggs
> 
> I do see one problem. You need ALOT more bedding in the box. With little bedding the eggs are at risk of getting cracked. And they will not get suffecient heat, and the risks of DIS are higher. When there is plenty of bedding in the box this give the eggs cushion, plus it holds heat and some moisture.


Agreed!! BUT, they throw EVERYTHING out, just as my previous pair did. I have provided newspaper shreds, pine, cotton shreddable blocks, "hair-like" nesting material and shredded cardboard but all they throw it all out. Suggestions on getting them to leave it in? It seems to upset them for me to place new potental nesting materials in but if I don't they won't take them in the nest.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_* It seems to upset them for me to place new potental nesting materials in but if I don't they won't take them in the nest.*_
*----------------------------------------------------*

I'm not sure what you mean by the above.

If you have about 3" deep of pine shaving in the box it should provide enough cushion. Plus if the nestbox hole is up high in the box they should not be able to kick or shovew the bedding out.

Another problem with no bedding under the chicks is that this greatly increases the risks of splayyed leg.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> _* It seems to upset them for me to place new potental nesting materials in but if I don't they won't take them in the nest.*_
> *----------------------------------------------------*
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
> ...


What I meant was, the pair will take the bedding material and throw it out of the nestbox with their beaks. They spent soooo long before she laid her eggs removing every type of bedding I placed in their nestbox. It seems when I place something new in there, hoping they will accept it better, it irritates them because they set about removing it. When I place the new nesting material outside the box - thinking maybe they want to build their own nest, it just goes unused. 

Since she's now incubating, maybe she will accept the pine shavings under her eggs since to remove it would probably not be safe for her eggs. I know splayed legs can be a problem on flat slick surfaces, so I purchased some (this is hard to explain) vet wrap? from my local pet warehouse. It's used over bandages in animals with wounds - it's self-sticking on one side and stretchy on the other side with enough texture to prevent legs from slipping. I made sure it was pet-safe. I planned to wrap a piece of cardboard with it and put it under her just before hatching if she continued to throw out the nesting material. 

Of course, this is last resort. I'll attempt to put more nesting material in and see if they will leave it alone. Would sure make me feel better if they would. Thanks for your reply. I appreciate anyone looking out for the better good of the babies!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I use coconut hair that my local bird store sells, that might work. It's harder to throw out because its wrapped together. That might work a little better...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Coconut fiber can get twisted around the chicks legs. I use this for softbills and I have had this happen.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Really? That's the only thing the bird store had....I might have to go find something else!!!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I just had it happen to one of my mousebirds last week. Luckily I saw him struggling, and a fiber was wrapped so tight around the ankle it was cutting off the circulation.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

YIKES!!! That is no bueno. I'm going to have to invest in some wood chips or something...


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

After placing a new load of pine shavings into the nest box, and carefully replacing the eggs, the pair proceeded to dig a hole all the way to the bottom of the nest box so that they were again on the bottom of the box. I fixed it again, and this time they began throwing the stuff out the hole, but I THINK they have finally decided to leave what's left in there alone. WHEW. I always hold my breath when I check them in the morning hoping they have left well enough alone. They lost one egg deep in the shavings, but I retrieved it and placed it back with the clutch. Although it was cool it wasn't cold so hopefully all is still well inside the egg.

Pictures for today! They now have 5 little bundles-to-be!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thge 2 center eggs defintely look good. The farthest back one is questionable. Have you candled them? Hopefully they will leave the bedding be.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> Thge 2 center eggs defintely look good. The farthest back one is questionable. Have you candled them? Hopefully they will leave the bedding be.



I candled them a few days ago. At that time there were 4 eggs and 2 were easily visible as fertile. I'll check again next time I see them both out for a stretch.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok I had a chance to candle the eggs this morning when mom and dad came out for sprouted beans breakfast! I numbered the clutch in no particular order, but used those same numbers to identify each candled egg.

As you can see, they've dug out more pine shavings. Ugh. Anyway, all but one look easily fertile. The last egg was laid 2 days ago so hopefully it will also be viable.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If you look at the 5th egg you can see some shadows on the egg...which is a good indication it is fetile. Those shadows will start to turn red and you'll see a heartbeat


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If you look at #5, you will notice some shadows on the yolk. Within a day these should start getting red and you will see a heartbeat.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> If you look at #5, you will notice some shadows on the yolk. Within a day these should start getting red and you will see a heartbeat.



Yay!!! That would be GREAT!!!  She's due to lay again today if she so desires - although I'd be happy with 5 healthy chicks! Thanks for your input!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

They look good!!! The countdown is on...


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> If you look at #5, you will notice some shadows on the yolk. Within a day these should start getting red and you will see a heartbeat.



It's been 2 days since I posted the picture of #5 egg, which was hard to tell fertility at the time (unless you're an expert like Susanne!!). Here is a picture I took this morning of Number 5.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

That is Great! I learned that within a day of laying you can sometimes tell if the egg is fertile because the yolk will have a small shadowed area on it. The yolk will also be less round. 

But...you can also have an idea within hours of the egg being layed. An infertile egg will have a pale pinkish cast to the shell. A fertile egg will not be the bright white of a fertile egg incubated for a few days, but a noticale translucent white.


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## Berdnerd (May 20, 2010)

Yay! Congrats on 5 little babies to be! Hopefully everything goes well  Like Srtiels said, I was pretty sure my 5th egg was fertile at 2 days. Didn't see any veins or anything, but I could see the tiniest little speck when I looked really hard. It's now 7 days old and looking great


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

That's how our last egg was...we waited to candle it till a few days after it was laid and saw the tiniest vein. Good luck!!!


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Anxiously awaiting the first chick to hatch!! Pipping noted yesterday morning, so it should be anytime. I'm planning to check the nest again before bed, but I'm afraid Billie Jean is going to get ticked if I keep peeking in there!! I haven't bothered them but once or twice the whole incubation period, so she's wondering why all the fussing now.  I hear the chick peeping so I'll post when we have delivery!   *


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Congrats...can't wait to see what the chick looks like!!!


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## dude (Mar 29, 2010)

Oooooh how exciting !


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Ta Da!! Happy Birthday #1!!*

We have hatch!! Happy Birthday #1 Baby!! Since mom is whiteface and dad is pastelface, the babies will have either yellow or white down. Yellow down on baby #1 means the baby is pastelface!! Their dad carries the lutino gene, as well as the whiteface, pearl and pied genes, so at this point we know the baby isn't lutino due to it's dark eyes, and it's not whiteface, so we'll have to wait for feathers to determine if it's a pastelface pearl, or a normal pastelface! 










Mom and baby's first portrait!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

How eggciting!...Congratulations


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## Nimfa (Jul 26, 2009)

I can't wait to see how they'll look like.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Thanks, guys!! Both parents have been in the nest all day today, so I've not been able to get a good glimpse of the baby to see that it's being fed. I sure hope so. The parents have a slice of whole wheat toast, crumbled fresh broccoli, organic spring garden mix greens, and chopped carrots in addition to their usual seed/pellet mix available to them.

I can't wait to see what they turn out to look like either. I'm especially interested to see what kind of mix of genes the 5 end up being!

Cross your fingers all 5 hatch!*


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Update*

Hi again! Update: Mom and dad are effectively feeding baby #1! I pretty much had to demand a peek at the baby to ensure they were doing their instinctual duties! I figure with both of them in the nest one of them surely knew what to do and I was right. Before I acquired dad bird, he had raised a few other clutches according to his previous owner, so maybe he's showing Billie Jean the ropes! 

I'm so excited and can't wait to see what else comes in this clutch!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

That's great!!! I can't wait to see what the others look like!!!


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Happy Birthday #2!!*



roxy culver said:


> That's great!!! I can't wait to see what the others look like!!!



I don't think we'll have to wait too much longer!! Today I noticed a second empty eggshell near the door of the nestbox when I was delivering breakfast! I wasn't expecting another until tomorrow so I'm pleasantly surprised!! Then, when I poked in for a photo, I noticed there is a third chick pipping! Yay!!

Looks like #2 is also going to be pastelface - either a normal pastelface or a pearl pastelface! C'mon whitefaces - time to catch up!! 

I couldn't BELIEVE how much bigger #1 was in just 24 hours!! Amazing - the skin is more filled out, the crop is full, and s/he is just MUCH bigger! She's getting good care from both parents so hopefully that will continue for all the chicks!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Congratulations on the 2nd hatch! Both babies look great. 

And good shots. The color is great and shows the paleness of the yellow down for the PF. A normal mutations down is a deeper yellow. And a split to WF down would be just a shade darker, but still dilute.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> Congratulations on the 2nd hatch! Both babies look great.
> 
> And good shots. The color is great and shows the paleness of the yellow down for the PF. A normal mutations down is a deeper yellow. And a split to WF down would be just a shade darker, but still dilute.


Thank you Susanne!! So the color of the down would be lightest in a pure pastelface chick, and a shade darker in a split to WF chick? It seems the split to WF would lighten the down a shade more than darken it but I probably just misunderstood. Obviously these chicks are split to WF. I'm glad you think they look good - what a relief!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

No...that is the color of a PF chick. And they should be visual PF. With your pairing you should just have PF and WF. I can't wait to see them feather out.

The split to WF looks very similar, just not as dilute. I was looking thru my pix to find some side by side examples but couldn't find any.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> No...that is the color of a PF chick. And they should be visual PF. With your pairing you should just have PF and WF. I can't wait to see them feather out.
> 
> The split to WF looks very similar, just not as dilute. I was looking thru my pix to find some side by side examples but couldn't find any.



I feel stupid, but I must have digested wrong information. Here's what I have assumed to be right:

Stempie - Visual Pastelface but split WF, so genetically PF/WF, with PF being dominant, which accounts for his visual status.

Billie Jean - Visual WF, so WF/WF

Since the PF and WF gene reside on the same chromosome, you can have any of these whiteface/pastelface combinations:

WF/WF - visual WF
PF/PF - visual PF
WF/PF - visual PF

In my case, Stempie has PF and WF while Billie Jean has only WF to contribute. This makes all of their chicks either WF/WF or PF/WF. To me, the PF/WF combo means the chick is split to WF (visually PF), which is what all of their chicks will be with any hint of yellow down. Am I way off base?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

WF/PF - visual PF
----------------

WF can not be split to PF. Your babies are Visual PF. They may or may not be split to WF. And I have found out, according to some of these genetic site there is NO such thing as a single factor and double factor PF.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> WF/PF - visual PF
> ----------------
> 
> WF can not be split to PF. Your babies are Visual PF. They may or may not be split to WF. And I have found out, according to some of these genetic site there is NO such thing as a single factor and double factor PF.




Yes, I knew WF couldn't be split to PF because PF is dominant and would be visual if it were there. What I meant by the WF/PF gene combination is that WF/PF is a visual pastelface, but carries the WF gene - like Stempie. 

Here is an article I found that explains the PF / WF relationship very well: 

*A note on pastelface:* Pastelface is sometimes called "dominant," but it
is recessive to normal grey. It does, however, have a relationship with the whiteface 
mutation that makes it dominant to whiteface. The two mutations 
affect the same gene, and a bird with one copy of the whiteface mutation and one 
copy of pastelface will look exactly like a bird with two copies of pastelface (although, in genetic terms, the 
bird is still split to both whiteface and pastelface). There are a few things to 
keep in mind regarding whiteface and pastelface. Because the two mutations 
affect the same gene, a bird can only have one of the following combinations of 
the two mutations:

Pure pastelface (two copies of the pastelface mutation)

Pure whiteface (two copies of the whiteface mutation)

Split to whiteface and pastelface (one copy each of the pastelface and whiteface mutations)

Split to whiteface (one whiteface mutation and one normal gene)

Split to pastelface (one pastelface mutation and one normal gene)

...and, of course, both copies of the gene may be normal.


Note that there is no way a bird can be a pure pastelface AND a pure whiteface. 
Remember, too, that a visual whiteface can not be split to pastelface, because 
pastelface always "shows through" whiteface.

So, why does pastelface become visual when combined with whiteface? I
think the best way to describe the relationship between whiteface and 
pastelface is to say that they are two forms of the same mutation. Both affect 
the same gene -- the one that controls lipochrome, or yellow/red pigment, 
production -- but they do it with different "intensities". Whiteface has the 
greatest intensity -- it reduces lipochrome production 100%. Pastelface is 
weaker -- it reduces lipochrome production by about 50%.

When a tiel has one copy of the pf mutation and one copy of the wf mutation, 
both of its lipochrome-production genes are affected -- one of the genes is 
switched off completely by the whiteface mutation, and the other gene is turned 
down halfway, so to speak, by the pastelface mutation. Since the tiel has no 
normally functioning lipochrome-production genes, it will not look like a normal 
grey; it's still got one of the genes working at 50%, though, so it will produce 
reduced-intensity yellows and reds -- and it will look like a pure pastelface 
tiel (one that has two copies of the pf mutation).


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> WF/PF - visual PF
> ----------------
> 
> WF can not be split to PF. Your babies are Visual PF. They may or may not be split to WF. And I have found out, according to some of these genetic site there is NO such thing as a single factor and double factor PF.


I guess what I have learned is that visual although there may not be a term "double factor PF" there is such a thing as having two PF genes, and also such a thing as having one PF gene and one WF gene on the same chromosome, but both birds looking visually the same.

The term I have heard used to describe PF / WF is "Split to both pastelface and whiteface", with PF being the dominant, visual gene.

I realize the two current babies will be visual PF due to their yellow down, but according to everything I can find, they are 100% sure to be split to WF as well.

.....................PF ................WF

WF


WF

Sad attempt at a punnet square, but used to sort of explain what I mean. Statistically, there is a 50% chance of having visual PF babies that also carry the WF gene, and a 50% chance of having visual WF babies, which do not carry PF, but rather two WF genes.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I've worked with both the visual PF, and normal orange checked patch birds split to PF (had a PF parent) I have found that my normals split to PF never produced any visual WF when paired with either a WF or a visual PF. I had also read info similar to what you posted, and found it contridictory when working with normal splits. They should have also inherited the WF gene too, but would never express it, which I tried with several clutches.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> I've worked with both the visual PF, and normal orange checked patch birds split to PF (had a PF parent) I have found that my normals split to PF never produced any visual WF when paired with either a WF or a visual PF.


Normal split to Pastelface will never give you WF birds because WF requires a WF gene from both parents. A normal split to PF doesn't have a WF gene. It has a normal and a PF, but no WF.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> I've worked with both the visual PF, and normal orange checked patch birds split to PF (had a PF parent) I have found that my normals split to PF never produced any visual WF when paired with either a WF or a visual PF. I had also read info similar to what you posted, and found it contridictory when working with normal splits. They should have also inherited the WF gene too, but would never express it, which I tried with several clutches.



*The two possible genes per bird found on the gene that produces PF and WF:*

Normal / PF = *N* (normal)* PF* (pastelface)

Visual PF = *PF PF* OR *PF WF* (depending on it's parents - a WF parent yields the latter)

Visual WF = *WF WF*

When crossing the Normal / PF with a Visual PF you can not get WF babies because the Normal / PF doesn't have a WF gene to contribute, EVEN THOUGH the Visual PF MAY have a WF gene (depending on if one of his parents was WF or not).

The only way to get WF babies where a PF parent is concerned is if the PF parent had a WF parent himself, AND if that PF bird is crossed to a visual WF hen.

My male PF who also carries the WF gene had a WF parent, and has produced WF's in previous clutches, including two WF Lutinos.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Major Changes in the Billie Jean x Stempie Nest!!*

Wow there have been some major changes 'round the Billie Jean x Stempie nest today!! I got inside the nest this afternoon to do a quick check of the egg I saw pipping this morning. Immediately I noticed that one egg was much darker than the others - a very bad sign. Indeed, this chick had died inside the shell at some point. I opened the egg and once the baby was out, I learned it would have been a whiteface lutino - white down and red eyes. Sad, no matter it's mutation, but could be the only whiteface in the clutch, which brings me to:

Examined the pipping egg to find the poor chick was pipping all over the place. A large area of messy pips in one spot and a perfect circle of pips on the side of the egg - I've never seen anything like it, so I attempted to get photographic evidence as quickly as possible before opening the air cell end of the egg to see what was going on.




























Once I opened the air cell end, it looked like this, with a little blood, but not much. The baby was cheeping loudly.










Upon moistening the membrane, the veins appeared mostly collapsed, so seeing as the membrane was broken open on the side of the egg, I pulled it from the face of the baby. I could see that the baby's right wing was over it's head, in the proper position for hatching, which was a relief knowing it was ready to come out.










I then placed the baby quickly back into the nest with mom just like that. I didn't want the baby to chill from the moisture I added and I want mom and dad to accept the baby and for it to hatch as normally as possible. With Billie Jean lunging at me when I check the nest, I hate to bother it any more than I have to for fear she will hurt the babies by trampling them.

I learned a lot about how to handle a situation like this from Susanne's site, so I recommend everyone taking a look at it in advance. The knowledge I gained ahead of time was invaluable in the moments I realized this baby could be in trouble. I didn't have to go research right then but rather take quick action to save it.

Edited to say that it appears baby #3 is ALSO yellow downed with dark eyes! LOL

Oh and I had meant to mention as well that the now last egg in the nest has drawn down and so I expect it won't be very long before we have a full nest if all goes well. This clutch is hatching much more quickly than I expected!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

_*Examined the pipping egg to find the poor chick was pipping all over the place.*_
*---------------------------*

The major cause for this is dramatic changes in environmental pressure. For examlpe hot one day and then the next cooler temps and storming going on when the chick is still oriented with the head towatds the bottom of the egg, which is the position prior to turning in the egg to the piping position. These changes in the weather many times can disorientate the chick in the egg, and cause erratic pipmarks. If humidity was low the inside of the egg would be drier and they would have a harder time turning and piping. If humidity was good, even though disorientated many times they will successfully hatch, though most times hatch from the side or bottom of the egg. Many times if this is caught in the nest careful monitoring of the chicks vocalizing will let you know when to help. In these cases assist hatches have a 75% success rate.

Your assist egg looks great.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> _*Examined the pipping egg to find the poor chick was pipping all over the place.*_
> *---------------------------*
> 
> The major cause for this is dramatic changes in environmental pressure. For examlpe hot one day and then the next cooler temps and storming going on when the chick is still oriented with the head towatds the bottom of the egg, which is the position prior to turning in the egg to the piping position. These changes in the weather many times can disorientate the chick in the egg, and cause erratic pipmarks. If humidity was low the inside of the egg would be drier and they would have a harder time turning and piping. If humidity was good, even though disorientated many times they will successfully hatch, though most times hatch from the side or bottom of the egg. Many times if this is caught in the nest careful monitoring of the chicks vocalizing will let you know when to help. In these cases assist hatches have a 75% success rate.
> ...


The weather has been awesome (better than average even) the past week. Finally got through some horrible rainy-every-day weather and have broke into really nice days. So, I'm doubting it was this, BUT I assume I confused the poor baby when I picked the egg up the day before to examine it's progress with pipping. I'm sure my handling of it got it turned around in the egg and was lost for direction.

The baby hatched out fine and I checked to find it looking healthy and with the other babies but it was late evening so I didn't want to disturb the whole flock by taking pictures. Figured I'd take them in the AM. This morning I found the baby dead in the nest.    It was dry and fluffy, looked healthy but not living. I wonder if mom injured it because it wouldn't die of starvation so quickly. It physically looked fine, but I'm not an avian doctor.

More news: The last egg is hatching. As I mentioned before, the parents are quite defensive and I hate to bother them much for fear of them hurting the babies with their nails or feet, but *I am *so* excited* to report that this baby looks like it is not only a whiteface but from what I can preliminarily tell - a whiteface lutino!   Will keep you posted after he/she dries and I can get a photo!!

Edited to say it just occurred to me that this baby has to be a female!! I had in my head that all their clutch would be unsexable until maturity but this is the one mutation that IS obvious - a little girl! Yay!


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

I checked on baby and went ahead and grabbed a couple pictures. I sure hope mom takes care of it - it felt cooler to the touch than I expected or would want I think. Don't know why she wouldn't but I'm nervous - this will be a really pretty bird and I would love for it and the others to do well. There is also a little blood on a couple of the pine shavings. I hope that doesn't mean anything is wrong. It's umbilical area looks a little protruded, like a baby with an "outie" if you know what I mean. If there is something I need to be doing to help the baby survive, please let me know.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I can't see the umbiical area. It should not be protruding. You might want to check and see how much is protruding. 

This is 'just in case' info... If a small portion of the yolk is out there is also a risk of it drying on the bedding and when the baby moves or kicks it could get pulled back out of the body. If not dried you might be able to gently press it insie. I use flour or corn starch after it is in to coat and dry the area. If it has already dried, or will not go in them plan B is the 3rd. pix.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> I can't see the umbiical area. It should not be protruding. You might want to check and see how much is protruding.
> 
> This is 'just in case' info... If a small portion of the yolk is out there is also a risk of it drying on the bedding and when the baby moves or kicks it could get pulled back out of the body. If not dried you might be able to gently press it insie. I use flour or corn starch after it is in to coat and dry the area. If it has already dried, or will not go in them plan B is the 3rd. pix.


Thank you soo much!!! I'm at movie theater but read your message right before we left and took the baby out for better photographs. Umbilical looks decent - not dangerous, but I will examine closer when I get home. I'll send the pics I took earlier then too. Thanks again so much for helping me along through this!!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Hopefully all is well with the little one. The skin tone looked good, so thankfully there is minmal blood loss, and no signs of anemia. How did the eggshell look?...like a normal hatch? If ragged the parents might have helped it out of the egg.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> Hopefully all is well with the little one. The skin tone looked good, so thankfully there is minmal blood loss, and no signs of anemia. How did the eggshell look?...like a normal hatch? If ragged the parents might have helped it out of the egg.


Hi again - finally home from the theater. Must have been the longest movie ever made! LOL There seemed to be minimal blood loss based on what was inside the nest. The egg looked ok - broken a little more than just a perfect circular pattern to open but not by too much. Just down the side of the lower half a little. The inside of the shell did look to have more dried blood than a normal hatch, however.

I grabbed a few more pictures when I returned to see that everything was still going ok and for you to let me know if anything looked to be taking a turn for the worse. The baby was snuggled up with the other two, and was very warm like they were this time when checking, so that was relieving. Fuzz is all dry as you can see. 

Should I just leave the umbilicus alone at this point? I don't think there's enough outside the body to tie off as you suggested if it wasn't perfectly absorbed.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

How sweet she looks  It looks like the area is pretty dry right now. You might want to check that it is still dry, and no seapage (sp) every few hours. 

OK...keep your pixs for reference. Over the next couple of days the yolk under the skin will get smaller...and it should stay the yellow color til then. If the yolk turns a greenish look it could be a sign of an infection. If the umbilical area gets reddend around this area, again an infection.

Do you have any human medications such as Keflex or Cipro, or even Amoxicillin on hand, and in capsule form? If the umbilical area looks imflamed you can slightly moisten it and put a light dusting of antibotic on it. 

Aside from the above, as long as the area stays dry it should heal well. Most babies back up to poop, so once it starts getting mobile in the nest check the abdomen that it doesn't get feces on it. If so use provadyne (sp) or diluted ACV to swab the area.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

srtiels said:


> How sweet she looks  It looks like the area is pretty dry right now. You might want to check that it is still dry, and no seapage (sp) every few hours.
> 
> OK...keep your pixs for reference. Over the next couple of days the yolk under the skin will get smaller...and it should stay the yellow color til then. If the yolk turns a greenish look it could be a sign of an infection. If the umbilical area gets reddend around this area, again an infection.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU so very much for your experienced help here. I am *so* relieved to hear her little button will probably heal just fine. I don't have any capsule forms of antibiotics but I can get some if I need them. My doc will give me one or two capsules if she has them on hand. Keeping a notebook of information you have provided in this and other posts for future reference - thank you again. You're the best! :clap:

Once the new baby is looking clearly safe, I'll take a few shots of the clutch together. I've been a nervous wreck and am glad they are hatched and safe.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

*Last Baby, Day 2*

Interesting day today. As of an hour ago, mom and dad had not fed the new baby. I took her out to examine her belly button and found her to be very weak / sloppy, not wanting to sit up but rather lay on her side. Not a good sign, I have learned. I rushed to the kitchen to prepare a bit of loose formula. Fed baby just enough to get some nutrients going into her bloodstream and pulled the brooder out to warm up. I got some pictures to see if she looks better / worse / the same as yesterday, and I have her in the brooder at 90 degrees at the moment. If you think I should go ahead and put her back in hopes of mom finally deciding to feed, do tell me. My thoughts kind of were that if she can get strong enough, maybe with just one feeding to sit to beg a little, mom may feed her, but she won't if she's so weak she can't beg. Especially being the smallest by quite a bit. Also, mom and dad have been spending time outside the box, together which is something new. She's going back in, but not nearly as quickly as she once did after stretching and doing her business. It doesn't appear Stempie is feeding Billie Jean. I haven't ever seen it happen, and she rushes out of the box for her fresh greens and broccoli to eat alongside Stempie. There is always fresh millet in the box with her though.

Her belly button looks ok - not pretty at all, but I'm guessing it's going to have to turn a dark color before eventually falling off like a scab. I tried to get good button pictures - let me know if it doesn't look healthy for her situation. 

Hard to get belly pictures - the baby is really good at curling up in a ball, and quick too! If it helps to assess her condition, she's been cheeping non-stop since I put her in the brooder.


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## SftWrmRain (Sep 8, 2009)

The other two babies look good to me. So far, well fed and seem to be growing and do have good skin tone.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Would need a clear frontal pix showing the entire abdomen...but from one pix the intestines looked dark, and if so you might want to use pedialyte to use as the fluids to mix the formula. A drop of Caro syrup or honey added to the formula might give the chick some energy.

As a precaution you might want to use the spice remedy in several feedings. (save pix and print) just in case a slight bacterial infection is starting.

Also does the yolk under the skin look the same size as yesterday? Do you notice any changes in it at all?


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