# Bleeding in Chest Feathers?



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I swear, if it's not one thing with my birds, it's another.

This evening when I took Roo out, I noticed that she had a dropping stuck in the feathers just above her vent. That didn't really strike me as terribly unusual, because it was a normal-looking poop and she sleeps on a platform perch, so she's been known to get them stuck to her that way.

But then I noticed that she also has a clump of bloody down feathers in the area just above her crop. I think most likely this is because she's molting, that probably she just over-preened a blood feather. But, I'm a little bit concerned about the fact that it's in that specific area over her crop. I know plucking feathers over the crop can be a symptom of PDD, or bacterial crop infection. 

If that's the case, what other signs would I look out for? She's acting totally normal, her weight is normal, her droppings look normal. Would you guys do anything at this point, or just keep an eye on her?


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Fingers crossed for you and Roo that nothing's wrong!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

So there's one pin feather that appears chewed. I don't THINK there are any other feathers plucked, although it's hard to tell on her since she is missing some permanently from her history of being plucked.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

At this point I would just keep an eye on it. I don't know the symptoms of PDD, sorry.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Do you guys think I should put her on probiotics, or am I over reacting? She's had two perfectly normal poops since I've had her out the past half hour, and she ate her normal huge dinner. 

Is it possible she just chewed this feather shaft because it was particularly itchy? She IS heavily molting. But how would I know if she's plucking when she's also molting, and is missing feathers? It's just so hard to know.

ETA: It also looks like she has a tiny bit of bruising around the shaft that bled. Is that normal for a blood feather? Or is it more likely that she got injured somehow and didn't chew it at all? It's totally possible she got caught on something in her cage, but I didn't hear or see it happen.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Cuts can also get bruised (I'm dealing with a surgical cut right now that has a HUGE ugly bruise around it) so I would say that she probably overpreened it to the point that she bruised herself. But putting her on probiotics wont hurt her any and it will give you peace of mind in the short term.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

True. I'll give her some in the morning, since she's getting sleepy now and I don't want to stress her out again. 

Is there any way to tell whether feathers have been plucked or molted normally? If she did over-preen, this wouldn't be the first instance of it, although I've never seen her pluck intentionally. It's more like sometimes she doesn't know how to deal with having feathers, and overdoes it. Another thing I always have to keep in mind with her is that we have no idea how much damage there might be to her skin/feather follicles from her trauma history, so it's possible that some of them are much more painful than others when they grow in.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

One more question -- I assume I shouldn't try to pull the feather right now? It's relatively tiny, it looks clotted inside the shaft, and I'm concerned that if I tried to pull it, I might damage her crop. But, I would hate for it to bleed again even though it only appears to have oozed a few drops last time.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Plucking feathers of the crop area can also be an allergic reaction to synthetic vitamins, soy or corn. 

Also, The actual area where the crop is at is bald, which can be seen when you softly blow to part the feathers. Emerging pinfeathers surrounding this area would be more fragile....thus she could have bumped one, or over preened one.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay. So you wouldn't view this as a big deal, as long as she doesn't keep escalating it? Also, do you think the dropping stuck to her belly is significant, or is it most likely okay since it was a normal-looking one? She does sometimes get them stuck when she's running around playing on the bottom of her cage. The timing is just a bit unnerving to me. 

What other signs would I be looking for if it were a crop issue? Her appetite is normal, her breath and droppings smell fine. She hasn't lost weight as far as I can tell, although I haven't weighed her the past couple of weeks.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Also, if she were plucking, the shaft would be out, not just chewed, right? Because it's definitely still there, chewed. There are a lot of feathers on the bottom of her cage, but she's been molting heavily all week so I don't think they were plucked.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Yea she wouldn't just chew on it if she were plucking. She could also be extremely itchy, maybe some more baths are in order?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

roxy culver said:


> She could also be extremely itchy, maybe some more baths are in order?


I definitely think this is true. I feel bad now, because I've been a bit lax on baths this week since it's been so hectic.  Tomorrow for sure. I DO think she's very uncomfortable. She's been screaming while preening a lot lately, and losing a TON of feathers. Her poor body is so confused. She molted when we went to Florida for Christmas, presumably because it was warm. Now it's warm here, so she's molting again like 3 months later. I think her body basically thinks it's spring twice. :/


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

All seems well with Roo this morning -- crop empty, normal morning poops, nothing stuck to her vent, no more blood. Although she was very unhappy with me for waking her up early to check. I'm still torn on whether to pull the feather. Since it's tiny and unlikely to bleed a lot, I think I'll leave it for now and see if she'll just let it heal. If she starts picking at it again, I'll pull it tonight. Does that sound like a plan?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If a crop issue the crop skin would get very opaque and thicken. Normally the crop skin is very thin if you gather some between your fingertips it will be the thickness of a folded over piece of paper towel. When yeast builds up inside the crop it coats and thickens the skin. The skin is semi-translucent, meaning many times you may see some of the crop contents thru the skin. If yeast is a problem the skintone gets an opaque whitish color. And the breath would have a sour vinegray smell.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I can see the crop contents, I noticed that last night. And her breath smells normal. So seems like probably this is more of a molting issue than anything else? That would be a relief.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Sending good thoughts to you and Roo. I hope it's just a molting issue. They always give us something to worry about, don't they?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

They really do.  They must know I have an exam tomorrow or something. I've been watching Roo on the webcam today and she hasn't seemed to be messing with it. They've both been sleeping a lot, but that's typical.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad you have your webcam to check on them. I think Roo is probably fine. It's hard not to worry though. My fiance came home yesterday with a temporary cast on his hand and Sunny now thinks he's a monster. Seriously. Wants no part of him whatsoever. It's something new everyday.:wacko: It's a good thing they're so cute.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

LOL awwww! Poor Sunny. If I fail my stats test tomorrow, I'm totally blaming Roo.  I'm actually home now, though, and she still seems perfectly normal. I'm naturally going to be paranoid until it heals all the way, but I'd also like to think I'd have seen more signs by now if it was going to turn out to be something major. So that's a bit of a relief, at least.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Just read through this. I hope it's only a molting issue. Poor little Roo.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Gave Roo a bath and tried to get a pic of the area. It was hard because I don't have another person to hold her, but here's what I got:









What do you guys think? You can see the shaft that was chewed and is now clotted. The crop skin was a bit lighter than the skin of her breast muscle, but it didn't seem thick or abnormal when her crop was full last night. Does it look like a yeast problem to you, Susanne? Again, I doubt that, but I'd hate to miss it if it was there.

ETA: She probably also had a bit of food in her crop at the time, because she was stuffing her face when I got home. So maybe that's why the skin there looks a bit lighter?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The breast muscle will be darker than the crop area. The crop skin is actually 2 thickness.....like a bag within a bag, so it will look lighter. But, her breast muscle looks awfully dark in the pix. Is the pix accurate? This muscle should be just a little lighter. Dark can sometimes be a slight dehydration. How much is she drinking, and is there a normal looking amount of urine in the poop?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Her breast muscle has been that dark since the day I adopted her. I've brought it up with the vet, and he seems to think there may be some scarring on the skin there that makes it look that way permanently. She does have normal urine output. In fact, that pic was taken immediately after a bath when she had just ingested a ton of water. 

Do you think her crop area looks okay in that pic? I wouldn't say it looks white or hardened to me, just a lighter pink than the rest of her breast area. There was a little pouchiness at the bottom, but I'm pretty sure that's because she had been snacking right before this pic.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Her crop looked fine.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I guess what I'm asking for is what criteria would you use for whether this is okay/just a molting issue, or what I would look for that would indicate we needed a trip to the vet?

If she doesn't mess with any more feathers and continues to act and eat normally for the next few days, would you take that to mean that there isn't a deeper issue here? I really don't want to drag her in for tests right now because 1) I already missed three days of work last month to take Sunny and 2) she's been to the vet a dozen times this year, so I really don't want to stress her out over a simple projection of my own anxiety. But at the same time, I'd hate to miss something.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Personally if the crop area looks fine and she has no more instances of blood in that area, I wouldn't take her to the vet. There's no yeast in the crop, no sign of infection, her poops are normal, I think she just got very irritated by that new feather and was dealing with it herself.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks, Roxy. I think I need to stop poking her in the crop area LOL. She's really upset with me for doing it repeatedly. I'm a bit paranoid because like I said, her crop skin IS lighter than the rest, and I'm not really used to looking at it, so I don't feel like I can say conclusively that there ISN'T yeast there. But, her breath doesn't smell, and she's acting perfectly normally. If she had a serious infection, I would probably notice something off, right? (I know that's not really how it works, but I also think I have pretty good instincts.)


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> so I don't feel like I can say conclusively that there ISN'T yeast there. But, her breath doesn't smell, and she's acting perfectly normally. If she had a serious infection, I would probably notice something off, right? (I know that's not really how it works, but I also think I have pretty good instincts.)


From a breeders standpoint (and I've been looking at crops obssesively for the last three months) her crop look normal. Yeast would make it so you couldn't see the contents and you can see them in the pic you posted. Since she isn't losing weight and has normal poops I would says she's fine.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay, thank you so much.  It's just one of those things where I'm not used to looking at it, so suddenly EVERYTHING looks unusual to me. I wasn't even sure that pic showed it well enough, but if you and Susanne are satisfied, then so am I.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

How is little Roo doing today?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She's still doing well. The spot is more or less gone, except for a few stained feathers that are still around. I'm still sort of anxious about it, of course, but I'd like to think if it were a symptom of something, I would have seen additional signs by now. I sort of suspect she may have bumped it on a toy or something and then chewed it because it was sore.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I think if it were symptom of something you would be seeing other signs too. It sounds like she's fine.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm watching her play with something on the bottom of the cage on the webcam. She best not be making a nest.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

Maybe Sunny's singing is getting the best of her. Heheheh.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo went to the vet tonight because she's continued to have the occasional stuck dropping, and this afternoon she was making some odd gurgly noises. By the time we got there, she wasn't making the noises anymore, and the vet couldn't find anything wrong with her. He thinks maybe she just had a bit of an upset tummy from her lettuce feast yesterday. She's also lost a few grams, but that's most likely because I reduced her calories after her huge gain last month. For now, we're going to put her on probiotics and just monitor weight weekly. He really doesn't think there's anything wrong with her.

I know this should give me peace of mind, but instead I just feel like a terrible, selfish person for dragging her in needlessly because of my own anxiety.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

You are just doing what you need to do to keep Roo in tip top shape. You've been through heck with that little girl, and of course, it's going to lead to paranoia. Don't feel bad. You were looking out for her.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I understand but don't feel bad. I've done the same and then felt really bad because it traumatized Sunny but it's better to be safe than sorry. You would have felt so much worse if something was wrong and you waited to take her in. You are good birdie mom and Roo is lucky you got her.


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