# OMG I have an egg



## Jenny10

I am so excited, Zeus and Hera, have a egg,:clap: I am not sure when it was actually laid, I checked the box first thing this morning and it wasn’t there then, Hera was in the box around 2 in afternoon, and the strange thing was I thought I heard a pop type sound, but thought No don’t be stupid, that wasn’t Hera laying an egg, now I am thinking perhaps it was:huh:? No one seems to be sitting mind, but I am guessing maybe they will wait till egg two or maybe more?

Anyway, here is a picture of the one egg, lol








the lonly egg

Jenny


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## Renae

Congrats! I hope Rosalie follows...


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## Berdnerd

Yay! Congrats! The next approximately 3 weeks will be very long, but then hopefully you'll have a cute little birdlet (or 2 or 3 or 4!).


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## Raven4Lyfe

Nice it must be hard to get them to breed but i hope all goes well


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## Jenny10

Thanks everyone, I guess its time to start getting the hand rearing stuff I was beginning to think I would never need to buy, lol

Solace, I hope you get eggs too quite soon, we can follow each others progress together, Zeus and Hera first started breeding 25th may so it has taken a good month before the egg, that’s assuming the egg is actually fertile lol.

Jenny


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I was able to tell that my eggs were fertile at 2 days after they were laid. I could see a tiny little bitty speck in the eggs, and by the 3rd day I could see a tiny heart beat. This will of course depend on when the parents start to incubate them (my birds started to sit on them right when they were laid), but it's nice to know you don't have to wait too long to tell if they're fertile!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, I will have to go to our local pet barn this weekend and see if I can get a candling torch, or at least buy something I can use to candle the eggs, the hen Hera is in and out the box at the moment, I think she is in two minds weather to sit or not, I only hope she don’t start to incubate then keep stopping, I will also go get a non toxic marker so I can mark the egg 1 lol, if my calculations are correct then egg number two should come Sunday afternoon, if going by the fact the first one wasn’t there in the morning, lol


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## roxy culver

Congrats!!! Now the wait begins lol.


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## srtiels

Congratulations! In looking at the pix it was hard to tell if the shell of the egg was smooth or had calcium deposits in patches on it. It appeared paler than normal compared to the bedding. If fertile it will look less pink within 24 hours or less.

Check the shell quality to make sure it is smooth looking. If not it can be an alert to a problem.


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## Cheryl

Yay an egg! Congrats!


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## Jenny10

Thanks, Cheryl.

Susanne, thanks for the warning, I will try and get another picture of the egg, at the moment mum is in the box, but sitting to the side of the egg, so a bit strange, I tapped the box but mum wont budge, as soon as she comes out I will take a closer picture, from looking from eye’s I think it is smooth, but I wont know for sure until I can get a good look, is it possible she could lay another egg the day after I know you hear of double clutching could she lay both clutches without the day break? I mean they were mating about 3 times a day towards the end. Do you know how long it takes for a hen to lay an egg if that is what she is doing?

Sorry lots of questions.

Although if she is laying she looks ok I can’t see signs of distress

The egg I can see assuming it’s the same one, I can’t really see a lot of difference in colour at the moment.

Jenny


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## tielfan

> at the moment mum is in the box, but sitting to the side of the egg, so a bit strange, I tapped the box but mum wont budge


She may be guarding the egg. Many birds don't start incubating until several eggs have been laid, but they may not want to leave them unattended.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Tielfan, that was what I thought.

There will be problems if mum does one thing and dad does the other, Dad Zeus is in there now and he is sitting, and I did try and tap the box to make him move so I could have a closer look at the egg, (Mum wasn’t laying still only the one egg.)

What should I do if I want to have a look at the egg to check it is ok and nice and smooth, Dad is swaying and hissing at me, I don’t want to upset them to much, Mum is bad but not as aggressive as Dad

Dad Zeus (wf pearl pied)


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, can you wait until he leaves the nest box? I try not to mess around with my chicks until Dad leaves because he's super protective. He's gotten more protective since the eggs hatched.


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## Jenny10

Berdnerd, I can try and wait until both leave the nest box, but I think I might be waiting a very long while, they both are more than happy to be in the box together which they are right now, even thou Mum is on time out I think, lol

So I am not sure they will ever leave the box together, I recon at the moment either mum or dad will always stay, they are quite happy sitting in there together, lol.


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## roxy culver

Mine never left the box empty once they started sitting. It was one or the other unless I was at work, then it was both. I only know this because I'd come home to find them there together.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, if you think your hen will let you pick up the egg because he's less protective, just wait until Daddy leaves the nest box and then pick up the egg. My birds didn't leave the eggs alone ever either, but Poppet was less protective of them than Arthur. I suggest being careful when you replace the egg because Poppet pecked at it one of the eggs once when I was returning it, she was trying to get me but got the egg instead. Oops! Better to have you be bitten than the egg damaged. (My pecked at egg has since hatched so no harm was done)


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## roxy culver

Same here with Cinnamon (the hen) being the less protective one. Fuzzy was the beak of death type of guy. Now that baby #1 is hatched, she's more protective, its kinda cute. Its like she's trying to hide it from us...


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## Jenny10

Hi everyone, 

Susanne, if you could have a look I managed to get the egg from under Mum, she did have a little go at me, but not really aggressive.

I can’t really see any unevenness in the egg but if you wouldn’t mind having a look at these pictures, there was one small spec of like grit within/on the shell at one point only but the rest was smooth, I do think the egg as gone whiter.

The second picture I had ago at seeing if I could see anything by candling, but I couldn’t see anything just yet, again experienced eye’s might see more than me, lol

















I marked the Egg before returning to the nest, and Dad went in and sat on the egg promptly after, probably cursing his partner for allowing me to take the egg, lol

Jenny


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## Renae

The egg looks completely normal to me.. just like any other Cockatiel egg.


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## Berdnerd

Yep, it looks good to me too  Tomorrow you may be able to see a tiny speck inside if the parents are sitting on it full time. I saw specks in mine after 2 days and my birds were sitting full time, it was definite at 3-4 days (tiny beating heart). Congrats again!


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## cheekyboy

Naww this is so exciting! Looking at all these photo's sometimes makes me wish I didnt have three boys!!


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## srtiels

Yes...the shell looks good. Great pix's too. You should have another egg today.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Everyone,

Thanks Susanne, yes another egg should be due, I actually thought her bottom looked a little bigger this evening, although I could be imagining it, lol. their egg will actually be tomorrow for me in Oz, lol

And I will wait until the night before inspecting/marking the 2nd egg I will try and see if there is another one in the morning mind, you wouldn’t believe it they both came out the box and had a nibble together a little preen of each other, before the hen departed back to the box for the night.

The photo’s were snapped on my sony cybershot, (its about 5 years old now) it has a macro setting and another macro setting which allows extreme close ups, so is good for photographing small objects.


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## roxy culver

> Naww this is so exciting! Looking at all these photo's sometimes makes me wish I didnt have three boys!!


You should get three girls then to go with your boys lol. 

The egg looks really good, that's how mine looked the first day or so, as berdnerd said you should be seeing specks of baby here pretty soon! Good luck!!!


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## Jenny10

Hi

Well Hera laid egg no 2 today, there was a little blood on the shell, but I assuming that’s probably normal?

Berdnerd,Roxy, I candled egg 1 again today but still no signs of life, I was hoping I would see some, but I guess it is still early days.

Can anyone advice a time that you decide the egg is infertile?

If I get the opportunity I might candle egg 1 again tomorrow, but I wont mess the birds about unless I see the opportunity to sneak in and have a look, otherwise I will wait until Wednesday when another egg should be due, and then candle both 1 and 2 and mark 3

Jenny


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## roxy culver

Start candling after they've been sitting on them for a while. Berdnerd saw hers early because her's started sitting on their eggs immediately. Its normally day 5 of incubation that you can see signs of life so that's when you should check.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Roxy,

So I should be seeing signs of life by the weekend.

I really hope so, it will be hard deciding the egg is infertile and it should go, if it comes to that I am sure I will posting again before I do anything rash, lol

I was thinking of giving them some boiled egg and the shell too if they want it, just thought Hera might enjoy the egg and the shell for energy from egg and calcium from the shell before her egg laying tomorrow, she as all the other stuff for calcium but thought she might like something different, just wondering if anyone else has done this? (chicken egg, lol)

Jenny


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## Berdnerd

Haha, Jenny, of course I was imagining you feeding her chicken egg, but when I read your clarification there at the end, I suddenly imagined you boiling her egg and serving it to her so she'd have the strength to lay another egg. Kind of funny if not disturbing. I do think feeding her a boiled chicken egg and shell would be good if she'd eat it 

Usually people leave the egg in the nest, fertile or not. If it's infertile and she lays more eggs, it will help retain heat and keep any fertile eggs warm. If it's infertile and she doesn't lay more, it's my understanding that she'll just sit on it until she gets bored but if you take it away she'll lay more to replace it. Which you may or may not want if it ends up being the only one she lays this time! And one last thing that I learned- if the egg is fertile but dies and you have other fertile eggs, you should remove the dead one because if it breaks it could contaminate all the healthy eggs. And if she goes on to lay lots more eggs and some are fertile, you should remove infertile ones if the number gets to over 6 because cockatiels have a hard time incubating more than 6 at a time and you wouldn't want her to be inadvertently warming the infertile ones while the fertile ones go cold.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, I will keep an eye on her eggs for life or DIS if we get to the life.

This will be her first clutch so I am assuming their first clutches are unlikely to be big, in my book it says clutches usually range from 4 to 7 eggs, so I am assuming there will be at least 4 and when we get to 4 you play it by the every other day laying rule to see what the total clutch number is.

They seem to have settled into a better routine at the moment, before they were both eager to sit but now they are spending more time individually out of the box, they are still sitting constant but the one on time out is having time out, Hera the hen was out quite a bit this morning and now Dad is out, I just hope its not the novelty of laying the eggs is wearing off and both will be out in a few days.

Jenny


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I am obviously no expert and can only share what my birds have done so far, but I agree that it's probably good they're trading shifts. When my birds were incubating, Poppet did probably 80% of it. They didn't share it equally. Whenever she would leave to eat and drink, Arthur would go right in. I think Arthur actually would have liked to sit more, but I heard her hiss at him a few times when he poked his head in the box! And I think he actually kind of made her leave the nest box to eat and drink, I would often see him go over and poke his head in, then she'd leave. It wasn't that she would leave and then he would come over and go in. Now that the chicks have hatched, they both spend a lot of time in the nest box together with the babies. I guess Poppet lets him in now!


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## Detector

congratulations!


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## roxy culver

Mine took turns sitting on their eggs, Cinnamon started off on days and Fuzzy on nights and then as it got closer to the eggs hatching they switched. Now they both sit in there with the baby together. Good luck!!


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## Jenny10

Hi,

Well Hera would have been due to lay another egg today but she hasn’t and if that is the end of the egg laying then they have a clutch of 2 is this anything to be concerned about being so small?

I have candled both eggs and still egg 1 is showing no signs of life, egg 2 didn’t either but I wasn’t really expecting to find anything on egg 2 yet anyway, but I thought I would have seen something on egg 1, so beginning to think it is infertile, I will check again in a few days time.

Little disappointing but I guess it goes like this, it’s a shame because they are sitting well and I would hate for them to be discouraged if both eggs turn out infertile, and I don’t have other pairs who’s eggs I could give them.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, don't lose hope  It's still early yet! The chick in the first egg may still just be super duper tiny. Also, they don't always lay every other day. Sometimes there are 2 days between eggs (maybe even more occasionally?) and sometimes they lay only 24 hours apart. Poppet and Michaela have done both and both resulted in fertile eggs.


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## roxy culver

As Berdnerd said its not an exact schedule just an estimate. So she could lay more, the boys sperm can stay fertile inside her for weeks from what I've read. And even if this one doesn't work out, its not the end of the world. You can wait a few months and try again!


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## Jenny10

Hi,

Well I have just candled Egg 1 & 2 and I am delighted to say they are both fertile, I could clearly see blood vessels and the dot in the middle of the eggs, I was actually a little shocked I thought I would see nothing and thinking they would both be infertile, also another little shock, Hera as laid another egg, which I am not 100% sure if it was Yesterday or Today, so could have 3 fertile eggs or even more if she starts laying again, I also have a nice bite mark on my hand, lol Dad decided to come in the nest box as I was trying to get the eggs from under Mum, Mum is not to bad, but Dad, I will have a nice black bruise tomorrow from when I was putting the eggs back, being aware I didn’t want him to damage the eggs I had them firmly in a closed hand when I was returning them, of course Dad a good go at my hand, lol

But I am still in a little shock, I can’t believe they are fertile, I am so excited:thumbu:, but its very early days, and they have a long way to go, and being first time parents, I just hope it all works out well.


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## roxy culver

I'm so glad they're fertile...its a great feeling knowing you'll get to watch them grow isn't it? Now its the waiting game, but that will fly by before you know it! Good luck!!!


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## srtiels

I am so excited:thumbu:,
--------------------------

LOL...that is *egg*citing


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## Jenny10

Hi everyone,

Thanks Roxy, Susanne for your comments, I smiled at the eggciting haha.

Well egg 3 must have been laid Thursday if I go by the laying every other day rule because Hera as laid egg number 4 today so really eggciting stuff but I wont know if they are fertile (3 & 4) until probably some time towards the end of next week, but I will keep you all posted.

Here is a picture of Egg 1 I thought I might have been able to photograph some of the veins but it has gone a lot more solid in form and although the veins were there they haven’t come out in the photo’s but I could still see a little centre dot which looked more like a little L shape but it didn’t really come out in the picture, but I think it is all looking good.


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## srtiels

Wow!...it sure is developing really fast. If you rotate the egg you should see the contents turn too, and the embryo moving  Looking good.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, your words are reassuring, I have just been reading your egg stages on someone else’s thread and was getting worried did mine look anything like those DIS, I must admit I didn’t really look for movement, I get so nervous getting them out the nest and just want to get them back as soon as possible, but at the same time wanted a picture just so I would have records of the progress and get a health report from experienced people such as yourself.

Gosh I am so eggcited according to my chart that hubby put together for me in excel, putting in formulas so as soon as I type in the laid date it automatically puts in the hatch date in the next column and according to that, egg 1 should hatch anywhere between 13th and 16th July it seems ages away, the suspense is killing me, lol


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## srtiels

No...your does not have the color of a DIS egg.


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## Jenny10

Hi Everyone,

Thanks Susanne, I was looking at the images where you were candling the air cells and they were DIS and I thought mine had a big air cell that was visible, although I could see the one that was clearly bad and gone a brown colour in the air bit, but I couldn’t see what I was looking at in the other two images, lol

Ok Hera as laid egg number 5 today, I know 2 for sure are fertile, and I expect by the weekend I will know if egg 3 and possibly 4 are fertile too, I think it will be a little early to tell if egg 5 is fertile by then, going by the time it took for me to know the first two were fertile.

I am a little concerned about Hera (mum) she looks to me like she has lost some weight, I did take some pictures of her to compare with pictures of when I first got her, but it isn’t that clear to see from pictures any change, but here are some pictures of her, the first is from not long after I had her the second taken today if anyone can say if she looks fairly normal so far, I am also guessing that she may lose weight laying eggs anyway, I would imagine this to be demanding on her body, but just a little concerned what will the demands be when they are trying to raise chicks as well, I could just be being a little paranoid too, lol

















They have seed, pellets and greens, all the calcium things, and even calcium grit, I did try giving them a mashed boiled egg the other day, but neither Hera or Zeus were interested in it, they are both seed junkies I was trying to get them to eat pellets (before the eggs) by cutting the seed down and they did start eating it after much protest of bashing dishes, and then the first egg arrived so then decided this wasn’t the time to be trying to change their diet, and gave them a big bowl of seed, but they do still have the pellets also but they don’t touch them when they have the seed, I personally feel pellets would be more nutritional than seed, Hera eats all the small stuff and Zeus seems to only eat sunflower seeds, but they do both eat Buk Choy.

Can anyone recommend anything else I could offer them that might help Mum gain a little weight before the chicks hatch?


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## Berdnerd

Congrats on all the fertile eggs! It is exciting, isn't it? I really, really hope you get healthy babies who grow up well. 

Sorry, I don't have any advice about the food really, but what about giving them some millet to help mama get some extra calories?


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## Jenny10

Thanks berdnerd, I do give them millet spray from time to time, I don’t know why I didn’t think of giving them it all the time at the moment, I guess I wanted to see if there were any reasonably healthy options but would still give calories.


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## Jenny10

Hi everyone,

Well I have managed to candle egg 3 today and mark egg 5 and I am pretty sure there are some very small veins in egg 3 so I think egg 3 is fertile, I will check again in a few days when I need to see if another egg as been laid or not, if it was small veins I could see in egg 3 it will be very visible in another couple of days.


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## roxy culver

Congratulations!!! This is so exciting!!! Have you tried really colorful pellets? Mine seem to like those just fine and eat both that and seed with no problem. After Cinnamon laid her eggs she lost some weight as well, but nothing serious. Hera looks fine, she's just smaller after the egg-laying which is why you noticed it. Good luck!!!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Roxy, we don’t get the choices in pellets like you do in the states, pretty much every store over here sells vetafarm and nothing else, and the one I travel to sells a few more brands and roudybush which is what I have, I did see once a brightly coloured pellet food but thought it must be full of food colourings to be so bright, so I don’t know if this is the same as the one you are referring to or a different brand that you may have in the states.


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## roxy culver

I have nutriblend which they seem to like very well and which came recommended from my father-in-law who has more tiels than anyone I know besides Susanne of course!!! And all his are very healthy lol. I hope they start eating ok...


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## Jenny10

Hi Everyone,

Susanne, if you read can you please advise, I have candled all the eggs again today, I think Egg 3 is DIS and is showing a blood ring, which is the below photo, do you think I am correct and guessing I should remove from the nest?









This picture below is Egg 1, my Hubby seems to think the air cell is looking too big, I wasn’t so sure thinking egg one would be due to hatch Wednesday next week, your thoughts please.









Hera hasn’t laid anymore eggs today so quite pleased about that really, egg 4 is showing signs of life and egg 5 is still too young to tell.


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## srtiels

OK...I would leave the egg that looks like the blood ring in for a few more days. When you candle it do you see movement or anything in the center of the egg (embryo)

Yes, as your husband noted the air cell is large. In looking at the pix there is a light patch to the shell about an 1/8" below the air cell. This could be a slight puncture or a thin patch of shell. Either one can cause loss of fluids in the egg.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, egg 3 the one I believe has the blood ring, the whole thing yolk and blood moves around.

Egg 1, I am not quite sure about where you are referring to the light patch’s but from what I can see they are reflection’s of light from my husbands fingers, I got the date slightly wrong on the hatch, it would be Tuesday the earliest egg 1 could hatch if still alive, so would I be ok to leave it and see if it hatches? Obviously I will keep an eye on it to check for further deterioration.


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## srtiels

I marked your pix to show what I was referring to. You can examine the egg to see if there is a dent/crack or puncture mark there.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, thank you for pointing that out, sorry if I seen to disappear when your offering advice, but yesterday it was nearly 12 am when I logged off, time difference’s lol

I have tried to get another look at the egg today but so far dad is on egg duty and he hurts, he manages to get your thin skin and pinch really hard, mum is getting worse too and did draw blood last night but dad still hurts more plus he was jumping lunging up at me, so was worried he would damage the eggs.

Thinking back, egg 1 does have that little grit mark, and I remember when I first candled it I thought I saw a pin prick of light shining through just by the grit bit, I tried to see it again and couldn’t so thought perhaps is was the light hitting the grit bump, husband said it was fine, so didn’t think no more on it, if there is a slight hole there, is it to late to try and seal it? If I sealed it and maybe soaked the egg in some water for a bit, is it possible to put the moisture back in? I might be wasting my time if the chick is already DIS but I can hope, it’s a little sad to think it came close to hatching and if I could save it if there was a chance it is still alive in there I would do it.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, oh god help, panicking, just candled egg 1, birds swapped over, he’s alive in their I saw a little foot move, here is a attached picture of egg and the grit bit, if you look at the bottom by the grit does that look like a tiny hole, the air cell seems to have tilted slightly what should I do? Do I try and seal over that grit to be safe? the gum glue I have says it takes 20 minutes to dry, I have plenty of nail polishes upstairs would they be harmful?, I have just received my brooder kit but not set up yet, and what about soaking to put moisture back, what should I do? am I overreacting?


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## Cheryl

I would just like to add that I have used the "clear nail polish" trick before. It worked absolute wonders and the chick survived. The cracks were pretty bad too.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Cheryl, I have decided I will use clear nail polish top coat, and I will moisten the shell with a cotton bud and warm boiled water, try and put moisture back in if it is lacking, if there is nothing wrong with egg then the polish should'nt have any effect, neither should a bit of extra moisture to do much harm, but lacking moisture will kill the little one, slight problem both Dad and Mum are back in the box, arrhhh


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## srtiels

OK...if the air cell tilted it may be getting ready to pip. I'd leave it be. The lump on the egg is a calcium deposit.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, oh I am so worried about what to do for the best, I would get a candled picture but it needs me and hubby for that, him to hold egg over the torch, and me take the picture. I can do that tonight when he’s home from work.

I am still worried that it might be a bit dry in there, do you think maybe moistening the egg with a cotton bud would be ok to do?

I did notice there were thin blood veins leading to the air cell, the baby isn’t due to hatch until Tuesday, its Thursday afternoon here, considering it seemed to take a long time to get started could it still hatch earlier than scheduled?


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## srtiels

Yes, you can blot the egg with a slightly damp cottonball.. Blot at the top of the air cell and the bottom of the egg. Try to avoid where it appears it may sytart piping at.


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## Jenny10

Thank’s Susanne, I will do that when dad gets out the nest box, I also e-mailed Hubby at work and said it was alive in there and I was worried about the egg being dry, he said I could spray the inside of the nest box lid to get more humidity in the air, he said don’t make it too wet, lol

I will take more pictures this evening of the air cell and post for you to see and comment.


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## Jenny10

Hi,

Ok here are some pictures taken tonight of Egg 1, I am not sure if this is normal the egg seems to have to air sections forming in two area’s, but there is veins in it and the vein’s are still red, I decided to put some nail polish over that calcium deposit in case there was a small hole there and I have gone over the egg with some water on a cotton bud, I don’t know if this egg looks healthy or not, but anything I can do if you think there’s a problem please advise and I will do?


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## srtiels

No...I don't think it has 2 air pockets. What you are seeing is the mass of where the embryo is as you turn the egg it shifts/rotates. It looks like its good.

If your environmental humidity is low you can put a humidifier in the room. If the nestbox is wood you can lightly blot or mist the inside walls of the box, taking care not to get the bedding wet.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, Hubby is going to buy a humidifier reader tomorrow so we can see what the humidity is in the bird room, although we do live in Queensland so a pretty humid part of Australia, but it is winter at the moment so not that humid out (that I notice, lol), but then it isn’t really hot either, I do have a fish tank in the same room as the birds as well so I could turn the light on in the day which will help evaporate more water into the air, do you think I should dap the egg daily with water and a cotton bud, or am I being OTT? (worried grandma, lol)

Thanks again in advance, as I will be logging off for the night, but I will check in the morning.


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## srtiels

Yes...the fishtank will raise the humidity level in the room too. If you can get the humidity levels up then don't dab the egg, leave it be because you don't want it to absorb to much water and/or bacteria. Also keep and print the pix as a reference of the size of the air cell for comparison to see if it reduces in size over the next several days.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I understand about the bacteria in the water, I did use cooled boiled water thinking about that side of things, trying to think 10 steps ahead, if it does hatch ok I am a little concerned it may well be dehydrated and if in a dehydrated state I cant remember if there is something I can add to water to help hydration it might be handy to have this ready, as I imagine if it is weak every second counts, my Hubby still thinks something isn’t quite right and not sure if it will make it, which I guess is adding to my worry.

How often should I be checking the eggs at this stage, I would like everyday, but mum and dad are getting so aggressive I am getting bruises and bites galore I am not keen to use gloves because I feel I wouldn’t know the true strength of my pressure on the eggs, if anyone has any tips on getting the eggs out without getting bit it would be useful, lol

Dad is getting good at running in the nest box when I come along to have a look at the eggs so you can imagine I have mum on the eggs and dad lunging at me from sitting on the nest box entrance, until I move my hand enough for him to drop down in the box with mum, then I have to give up, lol

My nest box currently has the top that comes off, I think once they have finished with the box I will modify it so there is a door in the back, I think that would be easier than going down in the box, lol


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I would be covered in bites if I just reached in and took out Phoenix. Even worse is that when they're being protective, they just kind of lunge and bite what's in front of them. This means they could easily bite their own check or peck their egg. So what I do is use a paper towel roll to gently shoo Poppet off of the eggs/babies and to kind of hold her back while I do what I need to do. Arthur is super protective so I just try to avoid going into the nest box if he's there.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, I will have to try that advice with the paper towel, that made me smile when you said give up if dad is there, lol 

I swear Zeus is training Hera on how to bite me good, lol she wasn’t that bad at first almost like a freighted hand reared baby but now she clings on good and hard, so I got Dad with fast hard sharp bites who keeps striking and Mum who now uses lots of pressure and don’t let go. Pain lol.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah, that doesn't sound good! I think the paper towel method may be less traumatic for the parents, too. Poppet usually doesn't fight too hard after I shoo her off. I just kind of shoo her to the corner and hold the paper towel roll at an angle to block her, then grab the chick really fast. And I don't know if it really helps or not, but I talk soothingly to them the whole time. I really do feel bad for them, out in nature no one would be nabbing their eggs and babies out of the nest. I feel especially bad for my guys because I have taken 3 of their babies away and the other one I take out 4 times a day for medicine. I know it's in the chicks' best interest to be checked out, but you can't help feel a little guilty. I've noticed that Arthur is even more protective of Phoenix now that he's the only chick left. I wonder if he'll ever trust me again!


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## Jenny10

Thanks berdnerd, I used a end roll off kitchen towel and squashed it so it was more of flat surface but with still some kitchen towel on it so it was soft, and it worked a treat I could push her of the eggs without to much protest and any protest was aimed at the kitchen towel and not me, yay.

Egg 1 is still alive the air cell hasn’t really changed at all it hasn’t got bigger but it hasn’t got smaller either, I did dap again with water and spray some water on the nest box walls, humidity in the room is about 10% under what they recommend in my tiel book, so something I can try and improve. Hubby still thinks there is something wrong with Egg 1.

Eggs 2, 4 and 5 seem to be coming along nicely.

Egg 3 well I am not sure if there was one new blood vessels in it, Susanne or if anyone else knows, can an egg which appears to have had a blood ring in early stages start up again? the egg as also lost the wobbly ness the veins and the yolk had when I first looked at it and thought it was no good, but if developing it is a lot behind eggs 4 and 5 which were laid after. Hubby is convinced it is no good, but I said I would ask Susanne first before discarding lol, if nothing else it is probably helping with heat for the other eggs.

I am going to buy some sparks electrolytes and bird probotic, I think I may need the sparks straight away if egg 1 hatches I have suspicions the egg has lost moisture so if the chick does make it s/he may well be dehydrated and need immediate care form day one, hopefully this wont happen, but if it does I hope I can get him hydrated and back with mum and dad.


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## srtiels

If your eggs air cell stay large you may have a 'dry hatch' and the parents (the Daddy bird) may have to help with getting the baby out of the shell similar to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VSRo9FxKy0&feature=fvw You can tell it is a dry hatch because the down is not real wet looking, and towards the end you can see inside the shell and see poop because the baby was in there so long.

You have a couple options. You can try some of the sparks in the parents water a couple of days before the baby hatches so that they are used to it. Or if it is a dry hatch just carefully supplement feed 1 drop of fluid.

The easist way to get out a baby is to have your hand loosely closed when you reach it so that the only thing the parents can strike at is the back of your hand. The egg/baby would be cupped inside your hand to protect it.

Your description doesn't sound good on the one with the suspected blood ring. Chilling prior to 4-5 days into devlopment is the major cause. The egg might not have been totally covered by a parent for a few hours. At this age the embryo would look similar to the pix. In this stage the back is a series of ridges, and the wings and feet are like little paddles or flippers.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, thank you so much for that advise, that video of dad helping baby out is amazing I had no idea they can be that beaks on in the beginning, lol

And the blood ring image is so clear (I know its from a open shell, but I never knew their could be a tiny bird like that in the centre)

Another question sorry just trying to be super prepared for almost any situation, if he starts piping and dad don’t get involved considering I am thinking it could be dry in their how long should I leave before I try and assist hatch, been reading up on it the book says 48 hrs but considering I am thinking there might be problems is it wise to leave this long, at the same time I am not that keen to assist hatch from reading in my book you need tweezers and have to avoid blood veins and keep dropping distilled water in until the veins move on, does that sound right? it sounds quite complex.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I'm sure Susanne will be in to answer your question, but until then here is the link to her EXCELLENT article about assist hatching: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/assist-hatches.html

I read it several times while each egg wast hatching and was so worried I'd have to step in, but I didn't need to. Also it's funny because I found the article by just doing a Google search and didn't realize at first that Susanne was the one who wrote it.


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## Jenny10

Thank you berdnerd for that link, I tried once to go into Susanne’s site before through the link on her page but for some reason it doesn’t seem to work for me, but if someone attaches a link like that it works fine.

It is a lot of reading and lot to try and take in, I can see why you would need to read a few times, I will have to, too, lol


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## srtiels

OK...not all parents will help a chick out of the egg. Some will do it if the chick has been chirping sharply and loudly for several hours. By then the chick has a small hole in the side of the egg.

Thanks Bernard for posting the link for Jenny.

I used to have a male named Joanie that loved babies. He used to ride on my shoulder when I checked nestboxes. One day when I was looking in a nestbox he jumped into the box and started softly talking to the egg. He would tap it with his beak and tilt his head to listen. He'd do this several times. If the egg was coming along OK he would hop out of the box and on my shoulder. But if the chick was in trouble in the egg he would tap and talk to it, and if there was a small hole in the shell from where the chick piped he would start to pick off the shell and help assist the chick out. Joanie has saved the day for littles several times over the years. Joanie recently died at the age of 17 years old. He is missed


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## Berdnerd

Susanne, that is an amazing story! Joanie sounds like an incredible guy! What a sweetie  Did he ever get to have his own babies? Sounds like he would have made an excellent father.


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## srtiels

Thanks...Joanie had a mate called Trouble (a lutino) and they were great parents. Then Joanie became a widower and he would never cloose another hen.


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## Berdnerd

Wow, what a sweet guy! More human men should be like Joanie


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## srtiels

LOL...I have found that most cocktiel males tend to be more maternal than the females  They miss the babies more when they are gone. By the time the babies are fledgling age the mothers are tired of it, and the fathers will resume the care, fledging and weaning if allowed to.


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## Berdnerd

That's really interesting! I've noticed that Arthur is way more protective of Phoenix than Poppet, but she does most of the care right now, including feeding. Maybe that will change as time goes on.

Jenny, so sorry for hijacking your thread, I promise to only discuss your birdies now!


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## Jenny10

That’s fine Berdnerd, that is exactly what this is about communicating with other dedicated bird owners and sharing advice and stories.

Susanne, Berdnerd that is so amazing about Joanie, it’s a shame none of the other males who he helped out over the years remembered this behaviour, I showed that video to Hubby he just said the bird is eating the egg shell that's why he’s picking at it, as you can imagine we disagreed on that one. lol


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## Jenny10

Hi

I have just bought my Electrolyte it is a liquid concentrate, I have just looked on the back and it says to dilute 5ml per 250 ml drinking water. I don’t know why but I thought if I needed to give to the chick to hydrate I would need to give it straight from the bottle, but I am guessing I would have to dilute as recommended on the bottle?

Thought I would also show my brooder set up, I am currently just checking it out to see if it will get up to the temperature’s required for a day old chick, I also have another thermostat coming which you can set in-between certain temperatures and a drop below or above the set temperature’s then an alarm will sound, I have gone for a ceramic heat lamp set up, I will use towels and paper towel which I can change frequently in the brooder, hubby fixed the shade and lamp into the lid of my brooder container for me, I also have got a spare ceramic bulb in the event the bulb should fail, do you think it needs air holes, there is a space all the way around the lamp so air can get in, and the more enclosed it is the better it will be for humidity and keeping heat in, so just wondering if it was ok without extra holes?
























Also with having plenty of room in the brooder the chick can move right under the heat source for more heat or away if too hot


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## srtiels

Yes you can drill some holes in the plastic for ventilation. I have found that what you do not want to see is the plastic sweating. If so, the chick can get respiratory problems.

If the solution says to dilute you would need to dilute.


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## Jenny10

Thank’s Susanne, I will keep an eye out to see if starts sweating, at the moment I am just running it to see if it will reach the required temperatures, and to keep an eye on the fluctuation of temperature if any, of course I intend to put some water containers in there for the final set up, and the towel would be placed tidier in there, lol

At the moment it seems to be holding 37 oC ok which is what my book recommends for a day to week old chick, of course if it was struggling I could also place towels around the container to keep more heat in or there is the option to buy a more powerful heat lamp.

Susanne do you think being clear like that will be ok for a chick or should I cover the sides anyway to make it dark, I wouldn’t want to upset the little eyes?


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## srtiels

If at all possible...if your pair will feed and take care of the babies that would be best. It is hard as heck to feed from day one. Have your brooder on as backup just in case they don't or if you take the baby out for short periods of time to hydrate (if dehydrated) or assist feed. Remeber that they do not feed solids for the first few hours. When fed it will be a small amount of fluids.

I would also have bedding in the container instead of a towel. You can put some towels around the sides to darken it some. If the brooder is not that big you can also place it inside a cardboard box. Cardboard is insular and will help to hold and maintain heat.

Oh...about the video with the males eating the eggshell. That is not common with tiels unless they are defecient in calcium in their diet when there are babies in the nest. Under normal circumstances tiels do not eat the shells, and just leave them intact with a normal hatch.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I don’t have any intentions to take the babies form day 1 unless there is a problem, just trying to be prepared for any circumstance, I have checked Egg 1 again today and the air cell as remained the same its possible it might have got a little smaller which I think is good, I looked at egg 2 as well today and that one looks really good no problems with the size of the air cell on that one.

I have almost convinced myself that egg 1 should it make it to hatch it is likely to need help, I have been out today bought small syringes bought Milton sterilising solutions roudybush hand rearing food probotics, knowing how fragile a chick will be at that age I am planning to be super sterile, I hope egg 1 will be fine and not need my help but the air cell is not the same as the other eggs and I just have that feeling not is all quite as should be, but will do my best to get to hatch and help the chick, I have been dapping water on egg daily, spraying the inside of the nest box turning fish tank light on.


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## srtiels

The best you can do right now with #1 is monitor it to determine if it is still moving inside. And you will know if you have to assist because the chick will be vocalizing.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, that’s good to know it will be vocalizing if it needs help.

Going back to straight after the hatch, if it does need re-hydrating do I have to wait 2 hrs to give the electrolytes or is it only the food formula I would have to wait to give.

Also the hatch date according to the incubation time allowed the earliest it could hatch would be tomorrow, does that mean if it were to hatch tomorrow it would start piping today, or would the piping start tomorrow, hope that makes sense, I think I am eager to see this egg hatch knowing my worries about it.

Hubby said through his experience looking at egg 1, he thinks it will be the later hatch date which would be this Friday if it makes it to hatch, he also thinks #2 could beat it to hatch.

I can’t really see that much movement in any off the eggs, I don’t have a proper candling torch (flashlight) just using a normal torch would a proper candling torch be a lot better?

I can still see red veins in egg 1 so I am assuming it is still alive plus the egg is still nice and white


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## srtiels

The veins and the whiteness of the shell is a real good indication of life. If the chiock is getting ready to pip you will see a change in the air cell. One side would get lower prior to seeing the pip crack in the shell.


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## Berdnerd

For some reason I only candled Phoenix when he was pipping. I wasn't sure what the tilted air sac would look like, but it was really obvious AND I could see him partly inside the air cell. I could see him moving too, even as he chirped! This is a video of him about 2 hours before he finally made his appearance:



It was much clearer in person. He moved with every chirp. I could even feel him chirping when I held the egg. Pipping and tilted air cell are unmistakable  Do you have a small flashlight? We call them pen lights. Back when Arthur and his previous mate had eggs years ago, I used a pen light to candle them and it worked fine. This time I happened to have a small flashlight that was bigger than a pen light but not too big. I think a smaller flashlight would help you see inside.

Also just want to add that the chick will be chirping whether it needs help or not. I wouldn't want you to think it's in trouble just because it's chirping and break into the egg early.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, I could actually see him moving in there, some days I can see movement in my eggs, but for most days I see none.

I am glad you said it is obvious when the air cell starts it’s move, mine is already on a slight angle but it has been like that a few days with no change so I just think it is how it is and nothing to do with piping.


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## Jenny10

This is a little different to my usual worries, but I have noticed more recently the hen I think is having really smelly poops it reeks I clean them out daily but the smell is like a dog with diarrhoea I put it down to breeding and the big poops but it is concerning me does this sound normal? I didn’t normally bother with any cage lining and just rinse the bottom trays of but I have decided to put wood shaving in the bottom to see if that helps with the smell.

They didn’t have bad smelling poop before they started breeding, apart from this the hen seems fine, she is starting to eat cuttle bone again which is a little worrying.


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## Jenny10

Since putting shavings in the bottom, that as worked for the smell part, I am guessing with no replies on the matter no one really knows or haven’t noticed it with their birds, but I guess if birds are outside maybe it wouldn’t be noticeable.

There was life in Egg 1 last night I could quite clearly see it moving, I will check later when mum is on egg duty to see if there are any signs of hatching.

Egg 3 even what looked like a blood ring before had disappeared and just looked like a clear egg, I decided it was time to remove egg 3 has it was clearly no good, I decided I would have a go at opening it up in the manner you would if I needed to assist hatch, that way I would at least be familiar with weakness of a egg and type of pressure required to break in, I went in the air cell and then peeled the shell away with tweezers to the membrane then peeled that off and decided to pour the egg out to see if there was anything within the yolk, there wasn’t much a few small specks but it wasn’t even visible as a chick that had died I don’t think it even got to a life stage.

Here are images below


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## kfelton0002

With the smelly poops, this is very normal with broody fowl. What happens is the parents hold their droppings and only pass them when they comes off the nest, which can be just once a day to a few times. A healthy bird will pass stools about every 20 minutes so you can imagine all the "back up." When the stools are actually passed THEY REEK! In my experience with both chickens and cockatiels, broody poops STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN!! My husband often calls them bombs because they are whoppers. It is quite normal so don't worry too much. More frequent cage tray cleaning may be required to keep down the smell. I was changing the liners of my trays every day to a few times a day to keep down the smell when I was breeding indoors. This is just one of the many beauties of breeding cockatiels. lol


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## Jenny10

Thanks Kfelton, that makes me feel happier, I thought it was probably that, but I swear I could be on the computer (same room as birds) and as soon has the poop left the bird I could smell it, your right it literally is a stink bomb, lol, the wood shavings have worked a treat mind.


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## Berdnerd

Yeah Poppet had stinky ginormous poops when she was sitting on the eggs! I decided to clip her toenails shortly before the first egg hatched and forgot to let her poop her giant poop before taking her out of the cage. Giant pooped ended up on: the stairs, the couch, the carpet, my pants, my shirt, a blanket.


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## Jenny10

God I bet you had a job to get the smell out the furniture, lol


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## Jenny10

Some exciting news egg 2 I believe is piping see picture below








This is 2 days ahead of schedule I guess it must be a good strong chick in there.

Also I candled egg 1 and I could see what looked like a jabbing motion towards the air cell, so maybe egg 1 is also beginning his hatching.


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## Jenny10

Ok getting a little worried about the egg in the previous post, I thought it was a little odd, that the first pip park looked to be in the middle and I couldn’t see any signs of the air cell collapsed, but that could be my inexperience, anyway had a look this morning just looking into the nest box, still cant see any further pips although I cant inspect egg thoroughly because I cant get the egg out, Dad Zeus is on duty and I tried even with the kitchen towel pushing him off the eggs, I reached in to get the egg and jumped round the kitchen towel clung on to my finger and was grinding his beak into my flesh I started retreating fast !!pain!! And he was still grinding away being lifted out the nest box attached to my finger, Zeus lives up to his name, but I am getting worried about the progress of the piping and the position, after doing more reading if the chick don’t pip in the air cell they could drown.


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## kfelton0002

Do you hear any peeping noises from the chick? Don't get too worried until about 48 hours have elapsed b/c hatching is tough business and it takes a while. At this point the chick still hasn't completely absorbed the yolk or anything so be patient and let the chick do its thing. Good luck and keep us posted!!


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## Jenny10

No I couldn’t hear anything last night, and I can’t check either, both birds are in the box and I think Dad is determined not to come out. talk about little titan.


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## Jenny10

Ok , Zeus came out and was able to inspect egg 2 closer, there are more star marks around the edge probably done about a quarter of the egg so I think that is coming along nicely.

Can anyone tell me when I should intervene with egg 1 considering egg 1 was laid first I would have thought he should be the one to hatch first, this is the egg I am concerned about being dehydrated, I candled and I can still see movement in there so he is still alive but there isn’t even any signs of piping, its difficult knowing what to do for the best be patient, if to patient and the chick could die in the egg.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, it sounds like egg 2 is coming along nicely! It's so exciting, isn't it? You'll feel a rush of relief when it hatches fine  I was so happy that I cried when my first egg hatched. Kieran was the cutest little cockatiel baby ever to me. Sorry I don't have any advice for egg 1, I would worry too. It's good he's still alive in there... maybe he's just taking longer? My eggs were laid every other day but did not hatch every other day. The eggs all hatched at different "ages" actually.


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## Jenny10

Yea I was expecting eggs to hatch different times but I would have thought egg 1 would hatch before egg 2, Well egg 1 should hatch Friday latest, I am guessing egg 2 may well be a chick tomorrow at some point which yes I am very excited about but with me worry over 1 it is kind of taking the excitement of a bit, I am thinking if there are no signs of hatching on egg 1 by Friday I will have to take the decision to open it, I am pretty sure I know what to do having read Susanne’s advice and my book, I really don’t think I can leave longer than that, I am even worried this could be too long considering egg 2 is already hatching, egg 1 should be more advanced, which leads me to think it could be in trouble.


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## srtiels

An...odd question...what do each of the eggs weigh?


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## roxy culver

Here's something I read, but I'm not sure how accurate it is, Susanne would know better than I but I read in one of my books that sometimes the parents wont start incubating the eggs until the third one or so is laid so that they all hatch around the same time. So egg #1 could've just been incubated closer to when egg #2 was incubated. Just a thought...


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## srtiels

Roxy...that is right. I have had pairs that did not fully incubate until the very last egg was hatched and all would hatch oit within hours of each other. I had that happen this spring where 8 hatched out at once and the 9th 2 days later.

Ususally if this is the case you would see the developement the same in all the eggs.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Roxy, I will try and keep that info in mind.

Susanne, I will weigh the eggs as soon as Zeus is out, they are both in there at the moment.

Yesterday I did notice on egg 1 when I Candled there appeared to be like brown line/s in the direction of the air cell line staining effect along a small portion of the air cell line there were also two biggish red veins close together attached to the air cell but there was movement in there. I don’t know if this gives you any idea’s of progress but I thought I would mention it.


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## srtiels

OK...the brown staining you are seeing could be from a vein that got broke. it could have been nicked from piping, or from a toenail if the chick is not orientated right. BUT...this is not life threatening. The prominant veins are an indication that it has not drawn in the blood or yolk (which is next) 

The reason why I asked about the weight is because the average weight of a tiel egg is 5 grams. If larger and 7-8 grams there is a possibility of 2 embryos in there which can be risky to assist and many times fatal if the yolk is shared. What your hoping for is a normal weight egg. 6 grams would be a large baby.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, when you say embryos sorry if this seems dumb but I am assuming that is chicks, so I could have two chicks in one egg? Are they both likely to be alive?

When Zeus gets out, I will weigh and try and get a picture of egg 1.


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## srtiels

Yes...embryos is another name for a developing chick. Yes, though rare you can have 2 chicks develop in the egg. I have had it happen several times over the years. Sucessful hatches are rare because most times they will share the yolk, and if one draws blood in before the other one it can kill it, which causes death for both chicks. If it is a double yolk egg in a very large shell the chances of successful hatches increase to 50% live hatches. Many times they have to be monitored and assisted. Sometimes the weaker chick can die. When piping (2 separate pips) both will be vocalizing. If one stops vocalizing they are in trouble. If a twin hatch they are alway fraternal and ususally 2 different color mutations....never identical.


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## roxy culver

I read about the twin hatching a while back when I started doing my research...I hope if there is two that both are ok!!!


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## Jenny10

Hi Susanne, I have managed to get eggs 1 and 2 out, I am worried about both egg, # 2 that had started piping and the last time I checked yesterday he had piped about a qauter of the shell and nothing more has been piped, it will be 48 hrs in about 4 hrs time and he should be out I cant see no movement either. I weighed it and weighed 4-5 grams it kept flicking between the two.

Egg 1 I picked up and I could hear chirping quite loudly I could also hear tapping does he need helping he weighed 3 grams.

And should I also open egg 2


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## Jenny10

Well good news, just now I could hear #2 tapping away in the egg, good strong taps so I am going to leave alone for now.

#1 was vocalizing quite load when I did look earlier so probably best to leave alone too for the time being, if it was in real danger I am guessing it would sound weaker than it did.

I will check both eggs again in the morning


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## roxy culver

Go babies Go!!!


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## sidneymysnake

The suspense would kill me. Hopefully they hatch fine. Good luck little ones


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## srtiels

If the egg is 3 grams it has dehydrated quite a bit. And the 4-5 gram one is normal weight at this stage.

Keep checking for vocalizing and candling. At this point you do not have to worry if the egg gets chilled for a few minutes. The parents may have also moved the eggs out from under them a couple of times. if so, do not put the eggs back under them if you see them not totally under the bird because they do this for a short cool down to stimulate the chick to move.

Fingers-crossed that they hatch out on their own without any assistance.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, do you think I should assist #1 tomorrow? Am I safe to go to sleep tonight? Or should I assist 1 tonight?

In your experience do you think it will hatch on its own? If it does is it likely to need assistance after hatch?

Mum and Dad don’t seem to get of the eggs I never look in and see the eggs to the side.


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## srtiels

I would be assisting the egg that has pipped parially sound the egg and stopped rotating because that is a good indicator that it may be stuck in the shell.

If the 3 gram egg does hatch on it's own the chick may be weak and may need hydration. Another thing, make sure that the parents have a large shallow water bowl on the floor of the cage. They will use this to wet their feathers to go back to the nest to add moisture to eggs and bedding. ALSO...they will do this dailt for the first 2 weeks of age because this also helps to keep the chicks skin and pin feathers hydrated.

As to the 4-5 gram egg, check to see if the prominant red veins have receeded. If ANY red veins are touching the air cell it is not ready to hatch.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, I think maybe you are mixing the eggs up, egg 2 is the one that has the external pips and hasn’t really changed that much from yesterday although when I last checked, it was tapping again quite strongly and is the one that weighs 4-5 grams.

And egg 1 is the one that did have the veins yesterday and was vocal today when I listened and was hearing piping but has no pips mark’s as of yet on the outside and this is the 3 gram egg.

So would you be assisting egg 2 now or 1 or both.

I could take some photo’s if it will help?


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## srtiels

The one egg thayt has not changed may be trapped. Candle to see if there are viens meeting the air cell (this is with both eggs) If not, then you might want to open a small hole in the aircell, away from the chick so that you can veiw inside. If the membrane ove the chick looks dry and papery then it is in trouble, and moistening it with a warm damp Q-tip will moisten it, and will show the veins and if there is bllod. Ususally if there are strong sharp chirping this is done when the chick is tryying to draw in the yolk. With the 3 gram egg, if dehydrated the yolk may also adher inside to the membrane and prevent this.

It is hard to suggest what to do. If there are any apparent veins just blot the egg with warm water to help hydrate.


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## Jenny10

ok the smaller egg i can still see veins close to the air cell, the heavier egg i cant see any veins both eggs are chirping and both i can hear tapping


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## srtiels

OK...the veined egg is the one to wait alittle more on. The other one with no veins...give it another hour or two, and listen again. You want to hear if the sounds are still string or weakening. If getting quieter then you might want to peek inside to see what is going on. IF you do have to peek inside try and post a closeup of the opening.


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## Jenny10

Susanne are you going to be online a while if i open, i know you cant really do alot, but still at least i can ask someone with experience?


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## srtiels

I will be back and forth away from the computer short periods of time. If needed this is my phone #: 954-632-0543

Any pix's at all will be helpful...if you have to do anything. Here is my online album: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Assist%20Hatch/ The 4th row shows sequential pix of once the top is removed from the egg, if the chick is trapped.


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## Jenny10

ok susanne, thankyou, i will post pictures shortly, i have opened egg 2 its dry, have blotted membrane veins became visible at this point i will put in brooder for a while, problem is no sooner i blot the membrane dries, i am going to proceed with egg 1 it must be in a bad way.


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## srtiels

OK...keep the mebrane wet/damp on the egg that was opened. Is there prominant veins showing?


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## Jenny10

ok here are the pictures, i think the veins are a reasonable size.
















at the moment i have put in the brooder with a damp kitchen towel over it, do you think i should start on egg 1, if this is the state of egg 2 i know there are veins but if i can open and get moistening?


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## srtiels

Ok./..you defintely have dehydration, and also the membrane has pulled away from the inside of the egg...which the chick would be in a membrane sac. Is the chick still voaclizing good? If so, what I would do is to dampen a Q-tip and break the membrane close to where the beak is, and between any veins. What you want to do is to try and get the beak and nares/nostrils exposed _*only*_. If there is bleeding it will be minimal, and should stop quickly.

OK, if #2 was like this there is a good chance the same thing is going on in #1 and would also need to be observed.

Just a random comment...the eyes look plum, so the baby might be a cinnamon mutation.


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## Jenny10

thanks Susanne, here is chick 1, i have already opened shell, he actually already has his beak out the membrane sack but the dehydration is bad.

Images below

















so am i ok to break the membrane carefully between veins?


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## srtiels

Yes...with both of them you want to move the membrane similar to the pix below. Let sit for an hour if the chick is vocalizing loud sharp chirping and you can feel it's feet kicking/tapping inside the shell.


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## Jenny10

thanks Susanne, ok is this acceptable, i dont know what the chances are for the smaller chick, he still has a dried yolk sack i think? i will do my best.









have i uncovered enough of chick 2? my hands were shaking, i wasnt even sure if i was on the right spot for the beak, i think i need a strong coffee, but i am coping better than i thought.


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## srtiels

OK...the shaking is natural...sit down, and yes some coffee will help. If you have Brewers yeast eat a tsp of it...it will help with your stress levels.

Ok...both eggs look good. You can take a break for an hour or two.

In your case if you did not assist you would have lost both of the chicks. Now you have increased the odds of susrvival by 75-90% Now all you have to do is listen, and every 10-15 minutes hold the egg with your fingertips around the lower portion of the shell. What you are feeling for is kicking. Strong rynmatic kicks/thumps are it still trying to draw in the yolk. If the kicking is infrequent then this is a signal that the yolk may be absorbed.

Let me know what you hear and feel. Your doing GREAT


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i have managed to uncover a bit more of the bigger chick, and with the moistening the blood veins do appear to be disapearing, i am happy in the knowledge that if i hadnt of done what i did, they both wouldnt have hatched at all, i am worried if i leave them a hour they will dry out, if i put some damp kitchen towel over the eggs do you think that will be enough to stop them from drying out?


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## srtiels

Ok...it is not as critical now to keep the membrane as wet.  You want it to dry alittle bit close to where the opening edges are. The reason why is to restrain the chick in the egg just in case it has not fully absorbed the yolk. You can just blot the areas of membran closest to the inside of the shell to keep it moist. Some moisture will trickle down inside to help prevent the yolk from adherring to dry membrane.

What type of sounds are they making? And is there any straining/pushing against the membrane that is holding them in?


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## Jenny10

they are not making any noise, nor do they seem to be trying to get out, i might get a chirp when i pick the egg up


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## srtiels

If you touch thier beak how do they respond? Will they open and close the beak and chirp? And while doing this can you feel movement in the shell? If no movement and beak opening but mimimal chirping they might be ready to move/push more of the membrane back towards the shell. In doing so they should then wigglew their shoulders.


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## Jenny10

ok they seem to be breathing deeply to me it looks worrying?


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## srtiels

OK...on the side where the beak is...straight down inside on that side should be the abdomen and the yolk. You can remove just little bits off shell working down the side til about 1/2 way to see if you can see yolk or not. If the chick is squirming then you can also lift him up alittle by the head just enough to see the abdomen. If the yolk is in he would be ready to come out. I partially put him back in and let him crawl out. Have the empty shell (open side down) near him if he wants to rest against it. Wait about 10 minutes and then offer a drop of warm water. 

OK...if the yolk is still not abosorbed you will have to restrain in the egg. Make sure the right wing is raised and drapped onto the side of the head. You can cut strips of tissue to wrap around the egg to keep him in the shell. I'll post more info as needed.....


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## Jenny10

Susanne, can i try and give fluids while he is still in egg? i am finding it tough trying to get down the side, his membrane is stuck on him, i did nip a little vein, bleeding stopped now, he is chirping but quietly.


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## srtiels

Yes, you can wet the membrane down the side of the body if it is dried/stuck.

How I have given fluids orally is by holding the egg so that the head/beak is upright. If the chick is opening and closing it's mouth and moving the tongue I will dip a Q-tip in warm water, and hold it next to the beak opening and a little water from the Q-tip should go nto the mouth. have a tissue nearby to blot up any excess water from the beak and nares.


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## Jenny10

i have managed to get some fluids in i think, i used a syringe and droped a bit in the mouths i think they took some, this is chick 2 the bigger one, i cant peel away anymore shell for fear of tearing a vein, you can see he is fitting well in the shell.








thank you so much for your advice so far i dont think there is much more i can do right now for them, so i am going to try and grab an hour and half sleep, i will go by the birds sort of feed timing, and see what more i can do then.


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## Jenny10

I cant sleep now you wont believe the thermostat seems to be playing up now on the brooder now I actually have chicks in it, so no sleep for me tonight.


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## srtiels

Sorry for thge slow responce...I had neapped. How are the eggs/chicks doing? Your last pix look like it was fine. What do you hear and feel with the eggs? Hopefully soon they should be ready to come out.


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## Jenny10

Hi Sussane, you are birdie gaurdian angel, it has been a good hour and half, and i have had the room in darkness for the other birds, just looked in the brooder and i can see the larger chick moving about with the shell, so going to see if i can help out


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## srtiels

Fingers crossed that you have a little one...(((HUGS))) Let him be fully dry before you give some fluids. 

How are the parents acting? If anxious and acting like they are missing the eggs you might (*with careful observation*) place the baby (once dry and given a drop of fluids) partially inside the shell and under a parent. They might resume care. Or are you planning to feed from day one?


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## Jenny10

Susanne, it was actually the smaller one who was trying to do all the moving, although i dont like the look of all the dried looking egg yolk about him, see image








i have given them both some more water with electrolytes i think that is sort of spelt right (you will know what i mean) i hope that wasnt the wrong thing to do, but i am worried if their eggs were that dehydrated then the bodies must be too.

Dad has been watching but dosnt seem to bothered, maybe he knew they were in trouble!


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## Jenny10

oh chick 2 is still in egg, not showing too much signs of getting out, although he as chirped a bit more, i did manage to free his second shoulder just now so hopefully that will help


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## srtiels

I have only seen dried yolk like that once. It was last year and the temps got to hot in the nest box and it must've partially cooked the yolk (just guessing/speckulating why) Once the blood was drawn and I realized the yolk was unable to go in I had to tie it off:http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Assist%20Hatch/?action=view&current=Yolk-Tie-off-illus.jpg The chick did live til it was 4 years old. She lost her mate and stopped eating and died. Her name was Little Bit.


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## srtiels

I blew up the pix and it looks like the yolk is cooked/congelled. You will defintely have to tie it off (dental floss) and trim off the excess. This little one will have to be fed with a VERY dilute formula with a little plain yogurt or probiotics mixed in. Just a drop every 15-30 min at first. The reason why the formula is because they normally digest the yolk with is a source of protein, and the tiny bit of formula will supply just a little and some nutrients.

Also check the yolk of the other baby to see if it looks normal or congelled.


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## Jenny10

i dont know, the box does get a bit of sunlight but not all day and is winter heat, and i have lifted the lid and checked and it hasnt felt particuarly hot, mum and dad sit 24/7 but if it was the box i would have thought the yolk would be the same on the other one two.

i am thinking of spraying the wood shaving bedding in the box so it is damp, ok there is the risk of mould, but i can change the bedding if need be, but at least it might get plenty of moisture in the remaining two eggs, what do you think.

i hope the little guy makes it, but i cant see his beak moving at the moment so i am thinking the worst, but i dont want to keep messing him around he might be just resting, i will check a little later.


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## srtiels

OK...what are you using to candle with? Turn it on and place your fingers on the end where the light comes out. How warm does it get and how fast. Sometimes with a very strong flashlight the end can get hot enough to a feect the yolk.

If this is so, if you do assist and tie off the yolk I was thinking a pinch of garlic *powder* also add to the first feeding. And if you have any type of antobiotic in powder (can also crush a pill)....a light dusting to the tied off area.


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## Jenny10

no the little one's gone, the strange thing is he has a big wet yolk sac still attached, see image








RIP little one, at least he breathed freely and was warm at the end.

the other one i am struggling to get out the shell, i have moistened down and i nipped a vein again, that was about 15 minuites ago just checked he is still breathing so must of stopped bleeding, i couldnt see no veins but he is tight in the egg, at the moment i thinking he's probably going to die too, if i cant get him out, i feel a bit down at the moment, i need a shower, and i will post some more pics of him see if you can suggest where i might be able to try and get him out from, i am guessing he wont have long before he dies of starvation.


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## Jenny10

oh the torch i am using is just a standard small torch, it's not super charged or powerfull


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## srtiels

The yolk looks abnormal in the pix. It should be a uniform yellow color. Since he had not fully turned in the egg he may have put the yolk in a bind enough to make it difficult in drawing it in. 

Is the other one still vocalizing?...or moving? If so give it a few more hours. No he won't die of starvation while in the egg. If he even drew up some of the yolk he will be fine. The yolk is attached to a small appendage on the upper portion of the intestine, so if even a little got drawn it he would get some nutrients.


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## Jenny10

its so heart breaking when you try so hard to save them, had a cry and just have to put that behind me and think i did all i could and have to concerntrate on this one, my chick he was vocalizing before when i picked up the egg, he didnt this time when i picked up the egg, but apart from that he dosnt appear to be making any effort to get out himself, i think there is plenty of room for him to get out now, so maybe he's still drawing in a yolk sack so dont want to come out yet, i have attached the picture has is, and wont try to clear away the blood from before so you can see what i am dealing with better.
















i have cleaned and moistened his skin before returning to brooder.

Susanne, i would like to say Thank you again, for your help and support.


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## srtiels

Is the down white? If so a Cinnamon WF (light colored eyes) The skintone looks good, and the baby looks good. Hopefully he should start using the feet to push himself out of the egg. 

((HUGS)) to you...just the stress is exhausting. Try to lay down flat several times and relax your muscles for 15-20 mins at a time...it helps.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, that makes me feel better if you think he looks ok, i probably nicked a small vein and the way the blood spread around that bottom shell edge i nearly died, it may have looked worse than what it was, blood has that effect, yes he will be a wf baby, mum is cinnamon pearl WF split to pied and dad is wf pearl pied we think, possibly carrying cinnamon, and if you say baby has cinnamon eyes and will be cinnamon, then dad must be carrying cinnamon.

do you think i should just keep moistening him and giving water, and let him come out on his own time? do you think mum and dad will still take him back if it takes a while?


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## srtiels

Just keep where he is restrained in the egg moistened. This way if he starts kicking and shifting the shoulder he doesn't have to work too hard to get free.

I'm not sure how the parents will react to the baby...that's a tough call. Is there any more eggs? if so, and one hatches, this little one can be handfed til then and then moved back into the nest.


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## Jenny10

oh Susanne yes i have another 2 eggs in the box, i am already thinking i may have to do the same for these 2 aswell, not looking foward to that, this may seem stupid but if they are likely to be in the same condition as these last eggs, if had some warm water in a bowl and placed the eggs in it for 5-10 mins, do you think that would hydrate them, or would i drown the chicks inside?

some good new i have just moistened and watered the chick and is chirping again maybe for some more water, but he was trying to pull his head out of that positon and his shoulder was wiggling too, so maybe fingers crossed he will be out tonight, if so do i do the usual feed liquid, and then after 2 hrs feed formula or should i feed formula straight away?


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## srtiels

Hopefully the last 2 eggs will hatch on their own. No, don't dunk them in the water for long. Mist the inside walls of the box, and just lightly blot the eggs with a wet towel a couple times a day.

Thats great the chick is chirping and trying to move. When he hatches, let him rest for 10-15 min and then give fluids. It can even be a very diluted formula. (water just tinted with color)


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## Jenny10

Thank you Susanne, i will let you know if/when he hatches, all i can really do now is make sure he dont get dry, and hopefully he will do the rest.


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## roxy culver

Keeping my fingers crossed he hatches ok!!!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Roxy

Susanne, is it normal to get blood when you move some shell away, every time i water him down he seem to struggle abit as if the water helps him lossen up i try and get the water down in the shell, i decided to move a bit of shell above his head it looked dry and white inside but when i peeled it back there was fresh red looking blood on the shell, but it didnt really bleed out, just wondering if i should be expecting a bit of blood or i shouldnt get any at all, i can feel him now starting to try and get his little feet going


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## srtiels

OK...If you are still getting blood that means he has not drawn in all the blood yet, which also means the yolk is probably still not drawn in either. If you can feel his feet kicking he is trying to get this done.


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## Jenny10

i guess that is good, he seems to get himself out a bit more each time, but then goes back into a rest type mode, he has got his shoulder out now, but i guess if he is still drawing blood in then he may well be doing it bit by bit?


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## Jenny10

Hi everyone, Susanne









Ok the little guy is out, I was asleep ready to do night shift and hubby was keeping chick moist and giving water.

Hubby said he was kicking to get out egg and was a bit stuck so he helped him, he said he was stuck on a bit dried blood within the shell, I have looked at shell and there is a few small spidery veins, the chick as a bit of a yolk sack, hubby tied it off with dental floss and we have applied some betadine solution on the present sack, I have tried to get some fluid/electrolytes into him I think he took a little bit, but appears weak and cant really lift his head at this stage, so thought perhaps a food solution not a good idea at present and he has quite a big yolk sac inside anyway I think is that yellow inside a yolk sack?

Oh the other thing hubby mentioned is that one foot was caught in the dried outside yolk sack and so he teased the foot out, he seems to want to lie on his side at the moment is this ok?

Susanne your thoughts would be greatly appreciated at this stage, you read all what you think you should do and when you actually come to do it, it’s is all new and you question everything you do?


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## Jenny10

Update I decided to go with hour and half for getting fluids into the little guy, and I was amazed to see him actively moving around and a lot stronger, I got some more fluids into him and dampened him down with some damp kitchen towel, I gave him a snuggle buddy.








Susanne when you feed fluids do you feed the same temperature as you would formula or can you give fluids at room temperature? Currently feeding temperature as formula.


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## srtiels

Sorry for the delay in answering. Yes...you would feed the fluids warm. It is hard to keep a small amount warm, so I will draw some into the syringe, and have a warm cup of water on hand to dunk the syringe in...which will warm up the contents. You can do this between drops of fluids to be fed to keep them warm because they rapidly cool off in the syringe.

The poor little one is a fighter, and the skin tone looks good. Hopefully he will gain more strength. Do you have any honey. You can dilute 1 drop with 10 drops of water. Draw some of this in a syringe...warm with the water, and feed. The honey will give a little bit of energy. If you have Brewers Yeast, a pinch can also be added to the water/honey mixture. it helps with energy, stress, and will alleviate some from small amounts of blood loss.

Give your Hubby a big HUG for his contribution in getting the liittle one out and tying off the yolk. It can take up to 10 days for the tied off yolk to dry off and fall off. You can trim off some of the excess if it hinders the baby from moving around too much. Also try and keep its head propped up against something. This way he has to use his muscles to try and remain upright.


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## srtiels

Sorry for the delay in answering. Yes...you would feed the fluids warm. It is hard to keep a small amount warm, so I will draw some into the syringe, and have a warm cup of water on hand to dunk the syringe in...which will warm up the contents. You can do this between drops of fluids to be fed to keep them warm because they rapidly cool off in the syringe.

The poor little one is a fighter, and the skin tone looks good. Hopefully he will gain more strength. Do you have any honey. You can dilute 1 drop with 10 drops of water. Draw some of this in a syringe...warm with the water, and feed. The honey will give a little bit of energy. If you have Brewers Yeast, a pinch can also be added to the water/honey mixture. it helps with energy, stress, and will alleviate some from small amounts of blood loss.

Give your Hubby a big HUG for his contribution in getting the liittle one out and tying off the yolk. It can take up to 10 days for the tied off yolk to dry off and fall off. You can trim off some of the excess if it hinders the baby from moving around too much. Also try and keep its head propped up against something. This way he has to use his muscles to try and remain upright.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, the advice about the cup of water for keeping small amounts of fluid warm is a great tip.

I am currently feeding sparks/electrolytes with water, so I am guessing that this is similar to Honey? I do have honey but its been in the cupboard awhile so would want to buy new pot. Should I just watch the inside body yolk sack to determine the best time to switch to formula, books say feed fluids for the first 24 hrs after hatch, but with his long hatch time do you think I should just watch out for his internal sack to be empty then feed formula?

Sorry going back to the water with the sparks in it, the bottle says you can use, make up enough for the day and it will be ok, do you think I would be ok to do this and then just reheat in the syringe in a glass of water, at the moment I am just throwing it out every time I feed but he needs such small amount its impossible to make up that small a portion each time. 

I am trying to raise his head but he just loves to be on the move, he can hold his head up now for very short periods, he had buried himself under the snuggle teddy, when I went to get him out just now, the outside dried yolk is shrivelling up nicely, I put some more betadine on it


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## srtiels

Yes, go ahead and mix up the sparks and just heat up the syringe as needed. Also once you start feeding formula (thin at first) Weigh him and feed 10% body weight. This will tell you how much water to use. You can then measure out the water in a shot glass placed in a warm bowl/pan of water, and add the formula. This way you don't have any/much waste.


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## Jenny10

i dont believe it, he's dead, i thought he was doing so well, cant think did i do something wrong, i could have sworn i looked at him earlier and just looked like in deep sleep near his teddy, his head was slightly in the bedding could he have suffocated?

dont quite believe it right now!


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## Jenny10

I have to say goodbye to the little chick who fought hard, good bye and I am sorry, because at the moment I feel like I did something, especially after the last time I looked at him he seemed so much better.

I am really worried now, the parents have another 2 eggs, I hope they won’t be the same


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## sidneymysnake

I'm so sorry for your loss - you have my deepest sympathy.


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## srtiels

(((HUGS)))...I can't think of anything you did wrong. You mentioned his head was slightly in the bedding. Did his mouth look wet? If so he could have self-aspirated? Just a thought.


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## Jenny10

Thank you for your thoughts sidneymysnake & Susanne

Susanne, No he was dry his mouth closed, but then he was always sticking his head in the bedding, I am thinking the worst perhaps I drowned him he was difficult to get liquid in and at one point a little bit of liquid came out his nostril, but then he was chirping after so thought ok he’s ok, he done this before and I would just wait for it to clear, or blot up with kitchen towel, they are so small and even the smallest syringe is big, I would get a tiny drop on the end and put it to the side of beak he usually would take it from there, of course trying to support his head too, but he had got stronger and could lift his head for himself a bit, the other thing I am thinking perhaps I didn’t get enough fluid in the last time, but I thought his little crop had liquid in it and I returned to the brooder and he was on the move despite me trying to rest him so his head was raised but no he wanted to get in the bedding by the teddy which I thought was normal behaviour and wasn’t too concerned, I remember looking in at one point and he was next to the teddy his breathing looked relaxed and thought he was having a good sleep.

I still can’t believe it, if I thought he wasn’t going to make it, it was after the hatch he couldn’t lift his head or hardly move, I literally pulled his head up and held in a grip his body practically just limp but I knew I had to get fluid in at this point.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I'm so sorry


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## Jenny10

Thank you Berdnerd, both of us haven’t had much luck with our babies, and it’s so sad.


Susanne, I was reading in my book they had a section on aspirating I had no idea the crop content could travel back up the neck and cause him to drown, I am thinking now, that this is what happened I had just got fluids in he had liquid in his crop when back in the brooder his head was down and he would have been lying on his crop, at the same time I feel bad because if I had of known I would have wedged him somehow so his head was up, but at the same time I didn’t know so I guess I am more aware for the future, its possible it may not have been that but thinking about how he was lying and his head was in a more downward position where he was trying to burry himself, it make sense.

This may sound strange but now that I think I know what happened, it gives me more hope that if I am in this situation again I will have a better chance of being successful in the future, all that has happened has been a massive learning experience and things I will know how to handle and deal with better in the future, not too soon I hope. Egg 4 due to hatch Wednesday, I am doing all I can to try and get moisture in them.

Susanne thanks again for all your help along the way it didn’t turn out as we wanted but your advice has helped me so much for the future and the chicks that may need help.


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## srtiels

Jenny...Yes, I agree. I suspect he self-aspirated to. I've had that happen and learned to always keep the new hatchlings propped upright against something.


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## Duckie

I have been reading along everyday about your ordeal, and I am so sorry to hear about the death. I lost a chick during my last clutch too, but I had an accident (she got caught in the cutlery drawer) and she died. It is very hard to lose a chick, so I feel for you. You did your very best, but I have learned that things just happen sometimes out of our control. I am keeping my fingers crossed for the others. Keep your chin up!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Duckie, Susanne, it was a crappy day yesterday, but feeling better now, and I did the best I could, I did blame myself at first, but he would have died in the egg if I hadn’t of got him out, so at least he was free of his shell prison, and the knowledge gained will help me immensely in the future, and as much as I hope it wont be with the next two eggs I cant help but to think I will be going through a similar process with the next 2 eggs, maybe if I can get enough moisture in it will help a lot in hopefully keeping that membrane wetter and so the chick can absorb the blood and yolk better, if at least it could do that it will help if I have to assist and hopefully there wont be as many veins to try and avoid, the previous two were so dried out that I am sure with the membrane being so dry it had literally hindered the blood from being absorbed/flowing to the chick,

Hubby candled the other two eggs the other day and he said the cell had moved on 4 so it might well be starting the draw down, I will be keeping an eye out for pips closer to hatch date.

I will keep you all posted on any further progress and events with these eggs/chicks.


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## srtiels

Fingers crossed that the next two will hatch out normally. The 2 lost were your teachers. It is so tough to loss them. And at least being freed from the membrane they were able to breathe some air rather than smothering.


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## roxy culver

I'm so sorry for your loss hun, hope the other two do better. At least you had him for a little while right?


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## Jenny10

Thanks Roxy, the only other thing i wish i had done apart from been able to save him was to take lots of pictures but i only have the one really cute picture with him and his teddy, i guess i thought i would be able to take more pictures when he was stronger and looking fluffy, but that didnt happen, still i will remember him wiggling around when s/he was that little stronger, and i am sure s/he and his smaller chickling are flying high in birdie heaven somewhere.


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## Jenny10

just a quick update egg 4 is showing first signs of piping, just lifted up to my ear and I could hear him tapping awaying in there, fingers crossed this one will hatch without my help.

I will keep you all posted on the progress over the next 48 hrs


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## srtiels

Jenny...according to my Avian Med books a cockatiel egg takes 24 to 48 hours from pip to hatch, meaning 48 hours is the slowest time. Average is around 24-36 hours. It also says that if an internal pip (air cell lowered on 1 side) has occurred but no external pip (visible crack in shell near internal pip) then a small hole can be made in the air cell end at 36 hours from drawdown (actual hatching time is determined when the egg goes into drawdown and air cell lowered at one end) to act as a breathing hole.


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## Jenny10

Thanks for that Susanne, I checked again about an hour ago, and he had nearly got a hole in the shell, so I think all is going well, but I certainly will be checking in the morning, hopefully he would have hatched by then, if not I may need to assist again, which as you can imagine I am not looking forward too, not that I am worried about the assisting part, although it is a little nervey work, it's if the chick is weak and I just dont want to go through what I went through before, although I will if I have too.

Susanne, can you answer is it common for Cockatiel eggs to dry out, I ask because we had a call from the breeder I bought the hen from and he told Hubby he had posted the breeder's leg rings and asked how thinks were going, Hubby picked up the call, Hubby said we just had a egg starting to pip, Neil didnt mention the two that had died, but the breeder actually said make sure you spray the nest box down good to keep the humidity up, he said he has suffered problems with chicks getting stuck in eggs because of to dry.

maybe it is just common in Australia, but it did make me wonder if he could have a breed line that had thin shells causing the eggs to dry out quicker, is that possible that thin shells would pass down in the breeding line, and how would I tell, this is the only breeding pair I have at present?


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## srtiels

When I first started breeding I kept a daily journal. In the journal I wrote down the date, time, and weather conditions. I also kept notes of pairs set up, what hatched and didn't and ANYTHING I did each day...such as cleaning what was used etc.

What was interesting is that I did this for several successive years. and I noticed a pattern such as there was a certain time of the year when dehydrated trapped in shell eggs occurred. And since I am in a location where the climate is excessively humid in the summertime I was also getting DIS of chicks that drowned in the shell because of excessive humidity. The journals over a period of time were a good guide to look back on to predict potential times of the year that problems occur. Plus the journals were good to look back on to see my notes on what I did.

OK...regardless where a person lives or the time of the year, environmental factors will play a role in successful hatches. If you are having these problems you can bet other breeders locally will be facing similar problems. Since Menta is also having the same problems and she is in the US (CA) it appears that the humidity and dehydration problems at certain times of the year are global.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, thank you for your info, I have started a info sheet on mum dad eggs hatch date what happened, it may well be that being winter there isnt any humidity here.

Also I am excited to say the chick attached out some time in the night, I am a little concerned it is not holding it’s head up although it does lift its head onto the other egg, the chick is sat upright, so I will keep an eye on the chick over the next 12 hrs.

Susanne or anyone with experience can you advise does the chick look ok?


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## srtiels

_*CONGRATULATIONS*_ on the baby!!

The chick appears fine. When they are that little if they are stressed sometimes the down will be flat to the body and appear wet or stringy looking. Many times this is an early warning signal (down not totally fluffy) of a secondary stress induced yeast problem.

Also look inside the inside of the shell to see if it is clean inside or has poop and gunk in it. If poop, then the baby may be slightly stressed and dehydrated. Hydration releives the stress levels.


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## roxy culver

Congrats on the beautiful baby!!!!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, Roxy.

Glad everything looks good so far, although both are new parents and I could hear the chick making very soft chirping noises, I guess a begging sound but I couldn’t hear any regurgitating sounds from neither parent, I am guessing they would be feeding liquid at the moment so would I hear regurgitating if they were feeding liquid?

Both parents are in the box, and Mum hasn’t let Dad take over yet.


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## srtiels

No you would not hear regurgitating sounds. But when they do feed the chick it bobs and does the cheeping sounds as the parent regurgitate food/fluids into them.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, how long does it usually take for a chick to start holding its head upright? just had a look and the little guy is still trying to waddle around with his head kind of hanging down infront of him.

I have heard the little chirping noises again this evening, and he was making them when I moved the hen off him to have a look but he had his head hanging down.

Also I took the egg shell out and both halves of the shell were clean tiny bit of blood one halve.


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## srtiels

OK...since he has a feeding responce that is a real positive sign. Most little ones are going to have their heads down or propped on something when they are tiny. But it you touch him on the side of the beak he should lift the head and also give a feeding responce, which is the crying. The chirping is when they are being fed.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I think I am just getting a little over paranoid worrying about everything, I dont want to mess the little one around unless necessary, I will start weighing tomorrow so I can keep an eye on his progress, pluss egg 5 might be showing pip signs tomorrow.


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## srtiels

Here is the Watch me Grow page...which has pix's at the bottom of the page: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html The baby is a parent raised bird...and you can see that when young it does keep it's head down.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, thanks for that sheet, its brilliant, mine was looking alot like day 2 yesterday with the head, today he is stronger actually holding the neck up longer for a period when I moved mum, the head still slightly down, but looking a lot stronger, almost pushing up on his legs too, fluff looking good, Dad went in the box so I wasnt going to attempt to get him out, I will later when Mum is alone but I can see he looks fine so not too worried.

also I think I could see piping on egg 5 so that egg seems to piping a little earlier than I thought but I guess that is good.


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## Jenny10

Hi Everyone,

I am very pleased to tell everyone the last chick hatched out looking at the fact it still looks wet I think it was quite recently see picture below.








Also had a good look at the older chick today happy his parents are feeding him, bit worried they are over filling his crop, does this look normal sorry it’s a little blurry? 








It looks like they are feeding pellets couldn’t get them to eat pellets before, lol








This is just me holding him, proud nanny, he weighed 6 grams.


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## srtiels

Whew!...I bet you are so glad that both hatched out. The older one looks like it is fed good, not overfed. At this age the crops will be packed and big.


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## Jenny10

Thank You Susanne, I cant seem to get them to eat soft things to feed the chicks, I have cooked wholemeal pasta didnt touch it, mashed boiled egg didnt touch it, mixed up a egg and biscuit mix didnt touch it, they will eat greens and seed and pellets to my suprise, I know some feed bread but I am a little concerned about that, with hearing birds can choke on it? could I try lactose free milk or soy milk soaked bread? or is there anything else I could try?


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## srtiels

No...no need to give anything else. Just stick with what the parents are used to eating, and they will take care of the rest and feed well. I've had parents go off feeding if I switched foods around too much when they had babies. I learned the best time to ever introduce new things is prior to breeding or when they are on the eggs. This way it is familar to them and gives them time to get adjusted to it.

I try to avoid soft foods because I have learned that it can contribute to sour crop, or yeast problems in the nest.


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## srtiels

Many years ago I had as many as 100 pairs breeding at a time. With that many pairs it was hard to stay on top of the health of the babies in the nest, and know that they were fed. I was checking each box 2-3 times a day.

What I devised was a measured system...meaning I measured food and watched the consumption in a 24 hour period of time. If I noticed a change in how much was not eaten it was an alert to a problem.

When I started I asked my vet how much food (I am a seed feeder) to give per bird daily. She said they should eat 1 ounce per day, and maintain health and weight. I had anywhere from 600-800 tiels at the time. So I started weighing and measuring the daily food. When I set up a pair I measured out a little over 2 ounces per cage daily. As the babies hatched I gradulally increased the amount. By the time the oldest baby was over 10 daysd old I increased the amount by 1 oz. times how many babies in the box.

When I did my daily feedings the first thing I would do is look in the seed bowls. In a 24 hr period ALL food seed should have been eaten with the exception of a small amount uneaten. If I noticed a bowl that was only half eaten I knew there was either a problem in the works or a problem in the box.


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## Jenny10

Thank You Susanne, that information is very useful I am making sure they have plenty of seeds and pellets and greens, Zeus did have a bit of egg and biscuit mix today, so I will continue to give that.

Little update on the chicks the bigger chick had gained 2 grams in weight and the smaller chick who’s first weigh in was today weighed 4 grams but it did flicker between 4 and 5 before settling on 4, the smaller chick actually hatched a day early according to my charts, he shouldn’t have hatched until today earliest, he did have a small amount of food in his crop so happy the parents are feeding both chicks.

Zeus (Dad) seems to be stuffing himself at the moment I think he is probably going to soften the food in his crop over night, he wont go in the nest box again now until tomorrow but his chest looks big and really puffed out, so I am guessing he is storing food for the chicks, lol


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## srtiels

OK...*not* to alarm you but the weight gains do not sound good. If a chick hatches at 5 gr in weight. The next day it should be 10 grams, and the following day 15 grams, and the 4th day 20 gr. Most chicks should gain their hatch weight per day. What may be going on with yours is they are both healthy, but when you pair like to like (meaning 2 WF) you will have slower growth. If either parent bird is ever paired with a non-WF or a split in the future you will see a huge difference in the chicks growth.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, you have burst my bubble, lol, I thought they were doing really well, according to my Tiel book they had chicks only gaining a gram per day, The chicks seem to be getting stronger each day so I think it may well be what you say about the WF and slower growth rate, also these two chicks would be the last two from the clutch, I dont know what you would say on this? The breeder said that your best birds are normally the first 2 to 3 chicks? He would always keep them on to develop and sell the remaining when old enough to a local pet store. Thinking back to poor chick number 2 I think that bird was bigger than these 2 even with his fluff flat to the body, once we got him out the shell it was like how the **** did he fit in that shell he looked double the size.


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## Jenny10

Well I am not doing very well with my chicks, the smaller one has died, I am not doing very well at keeping an eye on these birds totally failing, I checked the little one last night and he had food in his crop so thought all was well he was obviously getting his head up for food, just checked to weigh them and the little one is gone crop empty and looks dehydrated the over chick stuffed full, so not to happy at the moment it don’t help when it’s hard to check on chicks with dad being in the box all the bloody time and he’s so aggressive, to busy being aggressive and not feeding the little one.

I don’t know what emotions I should be feeling but at present pi**ed off is how I currently feel.

Will they be ok with one baby, I have heard people say that Cockatiels don’t tend to bother to feed/keep warm just one?


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## roxy culver

Mine were doing fine with just one baby...we only had problems when we moved them. I was so pi**ed when he died as well, at myself more than anything else, so its ok to be upset.


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## srtiels

(((HUGS))) They should do fine with one baby.

PLEASE...you have done nothing wrong. You have the genetics of the pairing working against you.

I have to totally disagree with the breeder that the best babies are the first in the clutch. Each baby in the clutch inherits both positive and negative traits from the parents. I have learned that sometimes the runt of the clutch has turned out to be the best at 6 months to a 12 months of age. Thus I would hold back babaies for a few months after they weaned to see how they turned out. In doing this I learned that some birds will gain 10-15% above of their weaning weight by the first molt to a year old. Babies that looked short in length at weaning changed and gained alot more length at first molt. So I learned if I wanted to hold back for future breeding stock or whatever to have a separate flight and see how they looked after several months. Many times the larger bird was an early bloomer and never improved after weaning.


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## Duckie

You have done nothing wrong! If they were in the wild, they would be on their own. What you have allowed, is for them to have a chance. I believe that what happens is always for a reason, whether we realize that at the time or not. You have done an excellent job


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## Jenny10

Thank you Susanne, Duckie, I can understand why you were checking boxes 2-3 times a day.

Hubby checked on the little guy this morning he said his crop was a lot smaller. Both birds were out the box to my surprise just this minute ago, we took the opportunity to check the little chick out again, a little worrying Neil didn’t think the crop looked any fuller than from when he checked first thing, I also thought the crop area looked a bit crinkled and worrying he is slightly dehydrated, it could just be that it isn’t as full and stretched out, since putting the chick back both birds went back in and I have just heard the little chirping sounds, so guessing they may have just topped him up, but then he was chirping at me handling him.

Here are some pictures below, what do you think?

















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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## Jenny10

Both birds have just come out the box again, brooder on now, getting ready to pull him if need be.


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## Jenny10

just quickly checked again, we dont think they have topped him up, if they did give him anything it was only a very small amount


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## Jenny10

Panic over for the time being, Mum went back in and we could hear that feeding sound again, checked chick and his crop is full, so feeling a bit happier at the moment.


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## srtiels

YAY!!! His skin tone looks great so there is no worries of dehydration. And the crop tissue thickness looks fine, and it has the semi-translucent quality (meaning can see inside contents) which is good.


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## Jenny10

Thank you Susanne, that makes me feel alot better, I weighed him today he is now 11g he is gaining every day but quite often he as food in his crop but i figured if you weigh the same time every day and he always has food in his crop then you will still be getting an accurate indication on how he is doing. I dont know if you have bigger birds in the states but acording to my Tiel book on there weight for a chick at 5 days old they have got it as 8 grams and mine is 11 g so looking at the book he is doing well. Neil dosnt think the standard of birds in Australia is very good, he showed birds when we were in England and won, but looking at some of the show birds over here he said it wouldnt be that difficult to win, he dosnt think alot off people over here seem to have much of a clue about breeding genectics he breeds gouldian's and the blue backs which are reasonably well established in the US and the UK are struggling over here and it is a Australian finch!, some breeders over here actually have them on atibiotics just to keep them alive because they are so weak and inbreed.

I will certainly be looking into changing the breeding around and trying to get splits to breed with, I want to breed good birds and not weak ones and Neil wants to do the same with the Gouldians.

Its a bit of a shame because I think Zeus and Hera are happy together, they bonded very quickly with each other.


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## srtiels

but acording to my Tiel book on there weight for a chick at 5 days old they have got it as 8 grams and mine is 11 g so looking at the book he is doing well
--------------------------------------

At 5 days old, if the chick hatched out at 5 grams should be 25 grams in weight. How experienced is the person that actually did write the book, and were they a long term cockatiel breeder? ANYONE can write a book, and it does not mean they have the experience to back it. So many people are better at parrotting what they have read or heard rather than personal expereince. As to the differences in sizes between the countries, most of that is genetics. still the average chick should gain it's hatch weight per day regardless of the size of the parents.

Have you ever bred Kira? She might be great with Zeus.


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## kfelton0002

*Hugs* Your birds are just inexperienced, that's all. You have done nothing wrong. Sometimes it takes a time or two for a pair to get it right (yes sometimes at the expense of a chick or even a few). They are still learning just like me and you are still learning and you can't expect them to be pros at it the first time. Susanne made a good suggestion, maybe try repairing them with new mates next time. Hang in there!


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## tielfan

> there weight for a chick at 5 days old they have got it as 8 grams and mine is 11 g


I weigh my chicks with food in the crop too - I don't take them away from the parents so they're never empty! Obviously this just gives you an approximate idea of how well they're growing, but most of my chicks weigh in at 17-20 grams at 5 days. There haven't been any that weighed less than that, although I've had 4-day chicks that weighed more.

The chicks that get weighed at that age are mostly the younger ones in the clutch, because I don't start weighing chicks until I start changing the nestbox litter (when the oldest in the clutch is about a week old). Birth order might have some influence on weight, since the food provided by the parents is geared toward the oldest chicks. My birds are a little on the small side too - my heaviest bird (Shodu) is about 92 grams.


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## Jenny10

Thank You everyone for your advise and comments.

Susanne, no I have not bread with Tira she was my first hand tame pet, so not sure if she would breed? and if she did would I lose my pet girl? the good thing I will have to post a Picture of her cheeks is I think she maybe split to WF I remember you telling someone else once about having yellow streaks in the cheek area and I am sure Tira as that.


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## roxy culver

Jenny I breed my pets and haven't lost them as pets at all. Cinnamon is my baby and even while being a mommy to eggs, she would let Fuzzy man the nestbox while she came to eat breakfast with me in the morning. So if you want to breed her I don't think you would loose your girl at all.


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## Jenny10

thanks roxy

Very worrying, how long should mum and dad be leaving the little guy alone in the nest box, I was upstairs for a hour so don’t know how long they had been out when I came down, but it has been a good 20+ minutes and they are still out, checked on chick, he is shaking, I am typing one handed trying to keep chick warm in other while waiting for brooder to warm, should I be pulling him, he does have food in his crop, so they are feeding?

Any advice will be much appreciated, I don’t know weather I should put back or go straight to brooder??


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## srtiels

I'd warm him up, and put him back...but watch to make sure that a parent stays in with him. Pulling that young should be as last resort.

The downside of pulling real young is that it can program the birds to expect this with the next clutch and stop caring for the chick early on. You'd prefer both to raise the chick as long as they can until older if possible.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, after he had warmed up I placed him back and they did go in, and were feeding him, but then they were both out again a little later, but then Mum went back in, Mum still with chick at moment, I have noticed Mum is eating alot of Cuttle bone recently I am thinking she might start laying again, although they havnt been mating, but from what I hear they may not need to mate again anyway. 

Susanne, is a Mum likely to abandon a chick in the middle of night when I am asleep and unable to be aware of whats going on, or do you think once lights are out and she is settled in the box she is unlikely just to come out for the sake of it?


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## tielfan

The parent birds normally start spending a lot more time out of the nest when the oldest chick is about a week old. When there are multiple chicks the babies keep each other warm at this point, but a single chick doesn't have that resource. If this baby is underdeveloped, he may not be able to maintain his body temperature as well as expected at this age.


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## Jenny10

Thank you Tielfan, this is my worries for the little guy, plus both parents are new parents, I am pretty sure they are feeding him, I have heard that chirping sound several times since they have been back, so fingers crossed they arnt thinking of abandoning him.

I am ready to take over if need be, but if they do anything stupid like leave him in the night when I am unaware, it could be too late to do anything.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, what you're going through with your chicks (and now just 1 chick) reminds me so much of what I was going through a few weeks ago. It's incredibly stressful, isn't it? I was worried something would go wrong when I was sleeping too. I remember once shortly after Kieran died and Teddy and Neeja were in the brooder, my fiance convinced me to go take a nap since I'd only got about 5 hours of sleep in 20 minute increments over several days. He came upstairs to tell me something about an hour into my nap and I jumped out of bed in a panic because I thought something was wrong with the chicks.

How old is your baby now? Are you going to name it?


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## Jenny10

Berdnerd, it’s funny you should say that because I thought my journey was similar to yours with the loss of chicks and now worrying about this little one, and after reading your problems with hand rearing as well other people’s problems it really does make me anxious about that and want to keep the little guy with mum and dad as long as I can.

S/He is actually 7 days old today, I am planning to hand rear and hopefully s/he will be able to go to a loving home, I have to be realistic I don’t have loads of room at the moment to keep all the chicks, although having said that should this little chick be a girl there is every likely hood it will find a place in my indoor aviary cage with my other hand reared girls, but if a boy I am likely to re-home

He seems to be gaining a bit more weight now, I know it is less than what Susanne’s chart recommends at 40g for 7 days, but he is gaining everyday and hopefully he will gain more weight as he gets stronger, he was 19 grams today.


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## Jenny10

Hi guys just something I would mention as I am very happy about it, Hubby (being an Electrical engineer) has ordered me a very hi tech thermostat it would normally be wired into large machinery items and is suitable for controlling temperature even in laboratory circumstances, he said he will wire it into an casing unit and wire in loud alarm systems also so in the event of a problem with the temperature even if asleep the alarm would be loud enough to wake us, knowing my hubby it be like a fire alarm, lol.

I know many have had brooder issues, myself included even after testing and when you need it the most the bloody thing plays up, so you can imagine I am ecstatic about having an all singing and dancing custom built one.


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## srtiels

That is awesome, and great he can do that  It would be a great releif to know that they are warm when needed, and don't have to keep checking.


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## Jenny10

Susanne that will be a massive worry off my mind, I asked what type of alarm will he get, he said he will see what he can get hold off, but from the noises he demonstrated I have a feeling it will be something like an alarm from a factory assembly line, he wont be waking just us up, the whole street will probably know about it, lol oh well as long as my chicks are safe, never mind the neighbours, lol

Hubby is coming up with all sorts of bright idea’s now he said what he could also do is wire in a infra red camera in the nest box so we can log in on the computer and see if the chick is being fed, lol

I think he is worrying about me getting stressed out, bless him, lol


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## srtiels

A camera in the nestbox is a good idea. Or even a baby monitor in the room that has sound.

As to the alarm possibly he can muffle the ringer or tie it into a baby monitor or something.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, I am sure my Hubby will sort something out he loves doing all that sort of stuff, lol

Ok just a quick update the little chick is getting bigger now and has been gaining around 4-5 grams a day recently, he currently weighs 29 grams, here is a update picture of him


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## srtiels

The little one looks great!

In another few days you will be able to tell what it is going to be. I'm suspecting a WF heavy pied or WF cinnamon pied... If so keep an eye on the crest and wings flights. They will stay pink, until the pins come in, which will be white. If you see any dark pigments to the skin that will be where dark feathers will come in.


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## Berdnerd

He is so cute! Glad to hear he's gaining weight. Is it just me though or does his head look like it's shaped kind of oddly at the front just behind his beak? Susanne says he looks fine though so I'm sure he is.


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## srtiels

_*his head look like it's shaped kind of oddly at the front just behind his beak?*_ 
------------------------------------------
LOL...it is the angle of the camera that is distorting things. What you are seeing is the nares/nostrils. He is normal


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## eltiel

i hope she turns out to be a girl so u can keep her if it is a her :thumbu:


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## Jenny10

Oh god dont tell me he is abnormal, lol, thanks Susanne for making that clear he is normal, otherwise it would have been something else for me to worry about.

I think the bird is going to take after Dad, I could see dark gray coming through the skin on his back, but no pins yet, when it gets more prominent I will take some photo's

Susanne you once said you thought dad was a dominant silver (I think) of some sort and maybe not pearl, two breeders here both thought he was pearl, and with a pearl hen any offspring should be pearl of some sort, but the gray I can see looks quite dark, so if the pins come out gray with no white edging then it looks like you could be right about dad, is that right?


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## srtiels

_*so if the pins come out gray with no white edging then it looks like you could be right about dad, is that right?*_
*-----------------------------*

Interesting...that would be a way to determine. Watch the pins as they grow out. pearl patterns vary. Some are light edged and some are dark edged. When the pins are about 1/4" long and looked varigated (two-toned striped) then most defintely pearl. If solid then a Silver. As the pins grow you can tell before it feathers if a heavy pied or light pied.


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## Jenny10

it looks like the baby has a all dark crest growing through, I will take a picture this evening when I weigh him, and his little eye's were starting to open last night.

Also I know I was planning to separate Zeus and Hera because of both being WF mutations, but they have other idea’s and have been at it like bunny’s these past few days, I cant separate them at the moment as they are still rearing their chick together, just wondering when the best time is to try and separate them? let them have a couple of clutches and then hopefully when they have finished breeding separate them? I don’t even have any other birds to partner them to at the moment, so would feel a bit cruel separating them as they seem to get on really well, I think for Hera it was love at first sight she wanted him from day one, lol, and it only took them 3 days once introduced to each other in the same cage to start mating, even without a nest box, wasn’t planning on breeding till at least spring and thought they could bond over winter, but again they had other idea’s

Still learning, yes originally I bought them to pair with each other, but with more experience and advice from other’s this pairing being two WF’s isn’t genetically the best.


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## Jenny10

Hi,

Well I have a few pictures of the chick, it looks to be grey coming through, and grey on the crest area, from what I can see so far it looks even what is coming through, so that’s good.
























The Chicks weight today was 49g s/he seems to be gaining weight pretty well now, Susanne can you advise when I should be ringing the bird? I know your chart showed you doing it on day 11 but my chick isn’t as big as yours, I don’t want to put it on when he is too small and get caught up in it. Should I go by weight for when to ring?


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## srtiels

Ik they seem like they are going to start another clutch you might want to let them go again. And hopefully there won't be humidity problems, etc with the eggs. Plus both birds are getting experience. 

The baby looks great, and sure has grown. Toenails look light colored, so that could be from pied, and be an indication of split to pied. Are the very tips (last pins) of the wing flights dark edged or white? The dark crest is more like it might be a pearl. 

OK, as to banding...it is at an age where you will have to try to band everyday. Right now the band may be too small, but daily those feet are growing, so it's best to try daily.


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## Jenny10

Thank you Susanne, ok i hope you read this, I am still gone midnight here, Mum isnt in the box and Dad wouldnt let her go in earlier i shifted him out the way and she hasnt gone in, the chicks got plently of food in crop but he feels like he is shivering to me but he looks to be breathing heavy, the tempature in his box is 76 f 24 oc in the us i think you work in f, should be in there alone at his age?? should I stick in the brooder, they seem to be leaving him alone in the box more and more, i am worried they are in the mind set to start again and feel they would give a **** if i took him.


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## srtiels

Yes...they will spend a little more time out of the box. Take a look at Hera and see if her abdomen looks flat or puffy. If they have been mating she may be getting broody and will lay soom. If so, I would still leave the chick in the nest til she lays 2-3 eggs, keeping an eye on it that it is being fed.

Yes...we go by temperatire in the US. OK...the easiest way to check that he is warm enough is to hold your palm an inch or two above his back. If his body temp is fine you will feel heat radiating from his body on the palm of your hand.


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## Jenny10

ok i have just taken a picture of him in box, i dont have a clue if this looks normal or if he looks cold, when i put my hand in like you advised i could feel a very small amount of heat raidiating but that was being about qauter a inch away if that, he is warm if you touch him.


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## srtiels

He...looks fine...and the poops look good for his age too. If they start to get harder looking you might want to assist feed him just a little fluids or diluted formula to keep hydration up in his body. If he stresses out the poop will go thinner and more sticky feeling. Right now the poop looks normal for a parent fed bird. Hopefully Mom will go back in the box soon. You might even consider attaching a heating pad set on low to the side of the nestbox to add heat.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I am probably getting paranoid again, i dont have any heating device i can attach to the side, I think I will just have to check on him in a few hours i am not a heavy sleeper and always wake for the loo anyway, probably too much information, lol

so i will pop down again in a few hours, it,s not what I would call particuarlly cold here anyway, and he is indoors, i did notice he had a few dark toenails.


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## srtiels

Are the dark toenails brown or black? The white ones would be pied (or split pied) nails.

Fingers-crossed that all is well with the little one, and they go in with him.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I have just looked in on him now, and I did also check in the night, they didnt go in at all in the night, maybe to feed, not sure, this morning his crop his just under half full, i thought the skin might be looking a little dry, i will check on him in about an hour and if they havent fed him by then i might pull him earlier than planned it will be 2 weeks Wednesday and at one stage i was thinking of leaving him with them for a extra week but the way they are going that idea is looking unlikely.

I have just ringed him, any longer and I wouldnt have got it on, it was a little tricky with the back toe nail just catching the inner ring when it was as far up the leg it go, just managed to get it passed that rim, he is #176 10 I dont think the rings are set up over here to a certain breeder it is just numbers and I expect i am listed somewhere as having a certain lot of numbers.

he has clear toe nails on some toes and grey looking ones on others, at the moment i am thinking it could be grey WF pearl split to pied, like Mum except Mum is cinnamon WF pearl split pied.


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## Jenny10

Well just checked again, dont think they have fed him, although mum is going in, but then comes out pretty much straight away, here are a few images, does his skin look like he is dehydrated? it try to take a picture of his toes to, but hard to see, to me they look grey, not black not brown.
















s/he can hiss at me pretty well, even went for me at one point, bit like dad, lol


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## srtiels

Your ring/band nuimbering system is similair to how the bands are #'d for finches with the NFSS (national finch and softbill society) As bands are ordered they keep track of the sequence of numbers that are issued to each breeder. If anyone want to know who the breeder is they would have to give the year and chick #. In the US with the cockatiel societies each breeder has a breeder code (such as mine is 24R) that is also included on the band.

It sound like you may have to either pull him or supplement feed him until you are 100% sure that they are not going to care for him.

I try and aviod pulling when real young because the parents learn this and they expect it with the next clutch and learn to stop feeding at a certain size or age. Had either bird been bred before? If so they may have already learned this and expect the baby to be gone at a certain age.


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## srtiels

What a cutie...he has changed from yesterdays pix's. OK the skin is dry, BUT he does not look dehydrated. At this age the skin is very thin and has a crepe papery look. If humidity is low many parents will still wet their abdomen to wet the down u=on the chick a couple times a day until the pin feathers are grown out enough to break open and look like feathers. In doing this it hydrates the skin, and promotes better feather growth.

If you pull him try to have a higher humidity level until he is fully pinfeathered.


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## Jenny10

I know for sure the hen would have been parent raised, he didnt hand rear at all, he was into breeding for show, the cock I have no idea, the only info on him was that he was 12 months old or that's what the pet store was told.

do you think from the above images he looks dry, and i should at least try and give him some fluids?

Neither parent takes water in, I did put a big dish of water in the bottom didnt take any notice of it, i was spraying the walls daily but stopped due to noticing some small mould patches in the wood, i cant win, aarrhh


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## srtiels

His toes are nice and plump and the skintone is great, so he is not dehyrated, so I don't think he needs any extra fluids. He is still growing to his skin. What you might want to do is wet a cottonball with warm water, and you can blot the skin to hydrate it. But internally he is not showing signs of dehyradtion. 

Once hatched the babies poop adds humidity to the box, so there is no need to spray the inside walls after the hatch.


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## Jenny10

thanks Susanne, i have just weighed him and although mum and dad have been going in the box, i have heard what sounds like the chick begging for food i am not sure they are giving him that much, i just weighed him and he as lost 4g today, i have never recorded a loss, temperatures are supposed to be taking a dive tonight with cold winds blowing in from the south, would you put him in the brooder for the night if he was yours?

They are both in the box at the moment so might weigh him again when they come out see if there is any change and that weight drop is not just because his crop isnt as full, but i can hear him begging away.


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## srtiels

Part of the weight loss may be if the crop was emptier than the last time weighed. You can calculate 1cc of food to equal 1 gram of weight.

At this age they should be keeping the crop pretty full. If they are not then you might have to pull him.


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## Jenny10

I did check on him last night a few times it was cold, but mum went in when i turned up to check, but he was fine when i looked in, and then later again i popped down and she was actually in the box, at the moment me keep checking seems to have put them in over protective mode, which i guess is good, mums stuffing loads of the egg and biscuit mix i have just mixed up, maybe with them being both new parents as well they get a bit not sure on what they should be doing, but they seem to be more dedicated today.


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## Jenny10

Good news, the little guy weighed 57g this evening, so Mum and Dad are on parental duty again, I have been moistening his skin down though, I think that is helping with the new pin feather’s coming through, I will have to post another picture tomorrow, but its amazing how fast the pins seem to be coming through, I also think there are four white pin feather’s coming through in the dark crest area but they are evenly placed each side around the dark ones.


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## srtiels

That is great that the parents are back on duty  Can't wait to see pix's.


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## Jenny10

yea they have been pretty dedicated since I have been keeping an eye on them, he is at the age now I could pull him but I think I might leave him a little longer, anyway here are some pictures taken today.


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## srtiels

WOW...he is turning into a little butterball  it is amazing how quickly they change and grow.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, although I am not familiar with the term butterball, must be something or saying you have in the States? But I am guessing it’s an endearing term, lol

Ok I am not having much luck with the leg ring every morning I am finding it lose in the nest box, lol, I struggled to get it on, got hubby to put it on last night, he found it tricky to get on, and yet the little chick still seems to get it off every day, is there any tips for getting them on easier than how we are doing it, we are currently doing it by getting the first 3 toes through then slide the ring on then up the leg past the back toe which is close to leg and then pull back toe back down, problem in the back toe is struggling to clear the inside rim of the ring when we need to get back toe back down, is there a better way of doing it?


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## srtiels

I will put the band over the first 3 toes and then slide the band as far up the leg as I can so that the back toe releases on its own, then slip the bandback down to the ankle. many books/sites show using a toothpick to free the back toe. I brike a toe doing that once, so I now pull the band up high enough so that it comes loose on it's own.

If you miss the time/age to get the band on, wait until the baby is almost weaned. When young the joints are swollen, and as they age the swelling goes down.


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## tielmom

Oh, how sweet...congrats on your egg


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## Jenny10

Thanks Tielmom, Susanne,

I was worried about hurting the toe when I was trying to get ring on, their little feet seem so fragile.

Good news the little guy is gaining good weight today the weight was 70g which is a gain of 10g since yesterday's weigh in.


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## tielmom

Okay, I have to admit that I read your whole entire post and I was driving my husband crazy, because everytime he would see me on my phone...he knew I was reading up on your little baby. It has been so cool to read all of this. He/she is so CUTE
I am looking forward to your updates


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## Jenny10

Hi Everyone,

Well just a quick update, we managed to ring the little guy again yesterday and yay this morning it was still on, you can just see it in the picture I have attached, even the birds I plan to sell to loving pet homes will be ringed, these rings are traceable back to me through the queensland cockatiel bird society so in the unthinkable event a bird should escape if found it will stand a better chance of being returned to it’s owner if the owner cannot be found through records I will take when selling a bird, then I would gladly take any of my birds back in, the rings are actually a good size just wondering is it possible to get them on a adult bird? I know I didn’t breed any of my pet birds but I had to buy in a box of 20 rings and they are 2010 rings and I doubt I will use them all before the year is out, but if I could get them on my adult bird’s at least should any my adults and tame pets escape they stand a better chance of being returned to me if lost and found?

Anyway looking at the little bird Susanne you probably can help, I am thinking s/he is looking to be a normal WF pearl, I have pulled a wing out and there are no from what I can see white flights emerging, if pearl pied s/he would have white flights coming through right? Sorry I should have took a picture of a open wing, there is markings appearing on a leg and some dark toes so I am guessing it will be split pied, also the eyes are very dark, so would you say by looking at the eye’s this bird is unlikely to be carrying cinnamon so could indicate a female or if male it will be a pearl male that is not carrying cinnamon which will be very handy to keep hold of for future breeding? Just thinking way ahead now, I would like to have ago with the lutino too, but want a clear line without cinnamon. So I have clean yellow lutino’s


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## srtiels

Yes...you can see if the bands will go on the adults. When I buy unbanded birds I will put a split band on them for record keeping.

Your little one sure has changed and grown. It looks like possibly a WF cinnamon pearl split pied. it can be either sex.


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## Jenny10

yes i did wonder if it could be cinnamon, but i thought the eye's were to dark, i guess it will be more clear when the feathers actually break out of the pins, still this is my first chick so i can be forgiven lol, would a normal grey look really dark?


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## srtiels

Yes...a cinnamons eyes would be dark at this age.


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## Jenny10

well changing the subject slightly I managed to fit a ring on Tira my adult female pet, she is not to impressed with it and keeps trying to get it off, i am guessing she will get used to it? i have just given her a spray bath to try and distract her from the ring, ididnt think I would get a ring on a adult bird, I thought they were designed only to fit young birds so you couldnt ring any bird and say you bred it, lol i think I will ring my platinum pearl and say I bred her, lol, only joking, i wouldnt do that, But I will ring my adults purely for there safety, and records. Tira below not to happy about her new item of jewellery, lol


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## srtiels

It will take her several days to get used to the band. When I get in any mousebirds that are unbanded I band them, because when I send out for sexing I need the band # for records. If I sell the bird I do tell the buyer the origin of the bird and that I banded it, and why.

Poor Tira


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, Tira is fine now, lol

Ok here are some pictures taken today, the feathers are beginning to brake through now, Susanne, I have taken some shots of the wings, there is one solid white flight feather on one wing, I think that makes my baby very light pied and not a split?
































Also I am going to pull for hand rearing tomorrow night, I am getting a little confused about when the last feed should be of the night? You miss a feed in the night is that correct, and then start early morning, the chick will be 3 weeks old the start day of my feeding, I think he will be on 4 hr feeds at that age?


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## tielmom

Your baby is adorable


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## srtiels

Yes...it is defintely a light pied. Just that one feather makes the difference between being split to pied, and pied  May I save that pix, for future reference, to show what to look for in regards to if it is a pied or not?

OK...at that age I feed 3X a day, which is a schedule of 12-6-6...meaning the hours between each feeding, and the 12 hr gap is the nigghtime gap. If you plan to feed 4X a day, break it into where the longest gap (nightime) is 8 hrs, and aprox 5+ hours between the other feedings, and a week from now switch over to 3X a day. The baby is big enought to also try to start picking at millet. You can place a piece of millet in the brooder, and I sprinkle some seed/pellets on the bedding.


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## Jenny10

Thank you Susanne, I think Mum and Dad wont mind me pulling him now anyway, I think Mum will be laying again Soon, but when i do take him out for weighing, they dont seem to worried.

Yes, by all means you can use any of my pictures.


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## Berdnerd

Agh! Your baby is so cute! I can't believe how much he's grown


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## tielmom

Your baby is getting so big 
Cutie Pie


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## Jenny10

Tielmom, Birdnerd, thank you,

Just a quick update, well I removed the little one last night for hand rearing, feeding isn’t going to bad, although I am feeding more regularly than four hours at the moment because the little guy is being so stubborn so not really getting the amounts he needs at the moment, having said that, what I am getting in seems to be emptying from the crop fast, so not doing to bad, I am sure he will come around soon.

Mum and Dad well they were looking to make more babies fast when they started mating again, and Mum as actually laid an egg today, she is sitting already too, but they successfully hatched most of them last times so now they are experienced I don’t see them having problems with the incubation process, this time round I will keep the moisture levels up too so hopefully everything will run more smoothly.


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## roxy culver

Good luck with the new babies!!!


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## Berdnerd

Good luck with the hand feeding! He should figure it out in the next couple of days and then will feed like a champ. I hope he doesn't go through the "NO I don't wanna eat!" phase that Phoenix has been stuck in for the past 2 weeks. It's much easier to feed them when they're willing.


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## Jenny10

Thanks, Roxy, Berdnerd

Hi Everyone, just a little update on my little chick.

Well he sure is coming on fast he as feathered up a lot more from my last pic, these pictures were taken just after I had fed him, feeding is getting better sometimes s/he really likes me and is begging for food and other times not so keen, but still I am happy with the progress and each time seems to be coming round quicker to feeding, also I try and let him sit with me for a bit after a feed, he was snuggled on my chest on leaning against my hand with his head resting on the top and s/he did have both eye’s closed and think s/he had a little nap before I returned to the brooder.

Also I have attached a picture of the birds poop, I think it looks fine but just thought I would post on here for others to comment on, just in case, this poop is roughly the amount s/he does between feeds I remove the soiled bedding every time hence why there is bedding stuck to it, it is also on very wet kitchen towel, had a water spill while feeding.


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## Berdnerd

I am so jealous! Is he a whiteface cinnamon pearl? He's beautiful  I love my Phoenix and all, but he's a regular ol' normal grey (and I think all of his siblings too) and you got a fancy one  Phoenix is sitting with me right now and I'm sure would be highly offended if he knew what I was typing. Don't get me wrong, he's cute, but I just love cinnamon pearls and the whiteface thing too is awesome.

Sorry I'm not actually helpful!


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## Jenny10

Hi Berdnerd Thank you, well he is actually a white face cinnamon pearl light pied, he has one solid white flight feather coming through and that makes him pied, although to look at he is going to look WF cinnamon pearl, i think his pearling will be quite nice too.


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## roxy culver

And if he is a she, she will keep that pearling!!!


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## tielmom

I thought your tiel was a white face cinnamon pearl...he/she has the same look as my Stormy. What a beauty. 
So one solid feather makes him/her a pied too...I was wondering how that is determined.


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## roxy culver

what a cutie....


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I want you to know that Phoenix got mad at me last night right as I clicked "submit" and flew away from me. I think he's psychic 

How is the little one today? Did you name him? I think he needs a name. My new babies don't have names yet, but I have names more or less chosen for them and am just waiting until they're a little older to reveal the names because I'm all superstitious that they'll die if I start calling them their names now.


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## Jenny10

Poor little Pheonix, getting mad, no I havnt named him, her yet, i like to try and know what sex they are before i think of names, he had gained 6g last nights weigh in so was happy last night, after when i took over feeding there was a drop in weight, but i put that down to being stubbourn when trying to feed, today he should be on more food due to weight gain, got a good load in first feed, second feed, although i got food in, he wasnt very keen to eat after the inital small feed he did have, so left me feeling i wish he had of ate more, but what can you do appart from really force the issue which i dont want to do because that wont do much good for our relationship, he did actually start flapping his wings today, his current weight form last night's weigh in with a full crop was 118g so I dont think he is doing to bad, but you cant help to worry when you dont get all the food in you want to, lets hope his next feed is better which is at 5pm.

I think I am very reluctant to give a name because in the past with koi fish, we named them they died so that has always stuck with us a bit, even thou they were fish and this is a bird, lol


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## Berdnerd

118 grams!! Phoenix is 70 grams! You have quite the little chunker there, wow. And to think we were initially worried about your chick's weight gain! I'm sure you already know this, but don't worry too much if he starts losing weight in a couple weeks because they need to lose some weight so they can fly. Phoenix actually didn't lose any weight because he was already skinny from being sick, but most babies do. I read that it's fine as long as the weight loss doesn't exceed 10 percent (15 percent?) of the baby's overall weight.

118. WOW.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, I tried a differnt feeding method his last feed, I was using a syringe but he used to go at it so hard come feeding time, he almost chokes himself on it and then scares himself, so I tried the spoon feeding method and he cleared the bowl of mixed formular using a spoon, so was happy with that feed, I can weigh the food out to know how much he is getting, but i think he had slightly more than what he should had have.


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## srtiels

You can go an internet search for EZY Feeder. There is a company that makes a bent spoon attatchment to attach to a syringe.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I will have to look on a few local bird web sites, I have seen them on sites for sale, but at the time didnt really take much notice.

Ok my little guy is at that age he is starting to pick things up and trying to eat for himself, I did give him a few pellets last night and he was attempting to eat them, but couldnt quite get the hang of it, I will give some millet today to have a peck at, do i need to provide a small water dish if he is attempting to eat solid foods?


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## srtiels

Jenny10...water isn't neccessary if he is still getting formula. The baby will be getting enpough fluids from the formula. Once you are down to 1-2 feedings per day you can introduce a shallow dish of water. That is great that it is nibbling. It sounds like your baby is going to be like Phoenix...a fast learner 

Wow! 118gr...that is impressive. I can't wait to see the baby when it is fully feathered.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I am still on 4 hr feeds his crop seems to empty really fast, and just dont see how at the moment I can cut down on the feeds, also although the amount I am mixing and getting in is more when i have finished his crop dosnt look that big to me, but he will not eat anymore anyway, he gets to a point and he will refuse anymore food, as he grows will his crop look smaller at this stage, he will be 4 weeks old come wednesday? 

I cant believe how fast his feathers come through he changes each day, i also had to buy a bigger in brooder container, he had outgrown the other one, its been a few days since i last posted pictures so here are some new photo's


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## Berdnerd

He's just gorgeous!

I'm hoping Susanne will chime in here- is the litter a concern? Now that he's pecking at things, I would worry about him swallowing some of the litter. When Phoenix started pecking at things, I switched to using a towel covered with paper towels instead of litter covered with paper towels so he couldn't eat any.

Oh also, just because I'm curious, how many CCs does he eat every day?


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## Jenny10

well the litter is aspen and totally safe with no chemicals, cost an arm an leg, lol, so i not worried about that there shouldnt be anthing in it that would make him sick.


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## srtiels

The little one has turned into a beauty.

As to the crop at this age, if it were in the nest it would be starting to shrink in size, and as the baby starts to nibble it will shrink more. As it does it will want less formula and start to want to eat more on it's own.

The bedding is fine. If I see the baby start to pick at the bedding I then sprinkle some seed in the area to encourage it to forage for food.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I actually managed to get 9g of food down him this last feed, which is actually a little less than 10% of his body weight, I have taken some pictures of his crop just after feeding can you advise does it look like enough in there, please forgive the messy feathers, I am doing my best to clean him of after each feed, lol
















my hubby said it was fist time he had seen him standing and he said he looked like a chicken, how could he, lol


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## srtiels

LOL...I had a pied cockatiel named Chicken 

The crop appears fine. You feed him much more and the skin starts to stretch which can lead to problems, because the base of the crop will hang lower than the entry into the body, and this can contribute to sour crop.

If you ever allow a parent to wean out a baby you be surprised how little they do keep in the crop at this age. We undo all of this by handfeeding by increasing the crop capacity which also prolongs the weaning process.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, I certainly dont want to over feed and create a problem, i must admit in my hand rearing book they talk about crop stretching and some of the crops in my book look way too big to me.


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## srtiels

_* i must admit in my hand rearing book they talk about crop stretching and some of the crops in my book look way too big to me.*_
__________________


What I have learned is that the crop *does not* need to be stretched once pulled for handfeeding. If you look at the max size of the crop when you pull, or make notes of how large it is various times of the day a day or two before pulling, this will give you a visual guage on how much to put in the crop. The older the baby is the smaller the crop will be. Once weaned to an adult the MAX crop capacity is 4-5cc.


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## Renae

I have the one Susanne is talking about, they are so much more easier! (I paid $40.00)


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## Berdnerd

I'm so curious to try one of those spoon feeders. How exactly is it easier than syringe feeding? Does the formula cool down more on its way down the spoon to the baby?


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, Solace,

Berdnerd, that was my thoughts with the syringe spoon, at the moment i am just using normal tea spoons with the sides bent up, I have the formula mixed up in a small bowl and place that bowl in a bigger bowl with hot water in it, that seems to work well for me in keeping the formula warm and just scoop small amounts onto the spoon each time, when he feeds from the spoon he kind of takes it himself i just tip it a bit, the good thing with that is no matter how eager he is to feed he dont choke on the spoon like he did the syringe point, which he would get in his mouth despite me trying to angle it to the side, I am not against using a syringe just for this bird the spoon seems to be working better, I am sure there will be birds that will do better with a syringe.


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## Jenny10

Hi Everyone, well i cant believe how fast this guy is growing and being a proud mum i tend to get a bit carried away with the camera, anyway thought you might like to see some more pictures it's been about 2 days since i last posted pictures, lol








not the camera again mum.








ok, i will stand up straight, are we done yet!








i'm standing perfectly still, hurry up.








how about a stretch?








i suppose you want you the other wing now?








try and photgraph me now mum, lol


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## srtiels

Wiw!...he sure has grown! I love the last pix. I had one baby that would stand on the millet and flap so hard he would hover in the air about 3-4 inches with the millet gripped with his feet. It looked like a flying perch 

What formula are you using? it looks simliar to the Roudybush formula in the US.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, yes i am using the roudybush hand rearing formula, i think it is the best we can buy here in Australia, there are alot of cheap brands out there which i avoid, and many of the pet shops only sell the cheap stuff, i have to travel an hour away which is the closest store which actually stocks roudybush, i know you use the zupreem? but we dont get that over here.

he is so funny when i get him out for feeding his first thought is food, then its a wiggle of the tail little wander around a stretch of each wing followed by flapping and then it's oh yea i want more food, lol


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## srtiels

LOL...I thought it looked like Roudybush in your bowl. It is an excellent formula, though harder to mix than others, and those little dark flecks can be scary looking until you get used to it. I phone the mfg. of the formula and they said the specks are vitamin particles. I also painfully learned to make sure you follow mixing directions exactly. The formula mixes thinner than other brands, and if thickened up it can settle in the base of the crop and impact and rapidly develop yeast...Yuk.

I always keep some of the Roudybush on hand and in the freezer. Every once in awhile I would get a tiel baby that just had a hard time with other forumlas, and would either have problems holding it down, or the growth was so slow. Switching to Roudybush helped to see immediate improvements with the babies within a day or two.


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## Jenny10

i didnt pay attention to the little black specks in the formula, i use roudybush pellets as well and they have little black specks in them so just assumed it was somthing like that, i know what you mean about being runny, i mixed it up the first time and put a bit of extra powder in to thicken slightly, i also add a pinch of probiotics every feed, i think he would still get good bacteria's from mum and dad if they were feeding and if it isnt doing any harm then why stop a good thing, but the thickness of the formula he actually seems to like it runnier, lol, i dont find mixing it a problem, it seems to disolve really well, but then i have never compared with any other formula, lol, like baking a cake just mix until it is smooth and silky, lol


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## srtiels

I have never tried to feed with a spoon...so I went to YouTube to see some videos on it and found this cute vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD9dUcq34Rk

My weaning mousebird babies hear the tiel and are whistling back


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## Jenny10

that video is great, i loved that lutino cockatiel, my spoon's are more bent up at the sides, i would film a bit of mine on my camera, but i am not sure how it will download on here, but i will have ago see if it works, but it will have to be when hubby is about to operate the camera, lol.

I have to say i was curious about what a mousebird was and went onto your site to see, they are a little like Cockatiels's with there crests, but with there beaks i am guessing they may well be a preditor bird in the wild, their beak is similar to the butcher birds we have here and they raid nests and leave the bodys hanging in the trees to try our before returning to eat, yuk, but to hear them sing they have such a low rich tone.


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## roxy culver

He is such a cutie!!! I love those birds...


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## srtiels

Mousebirds are softbills. Softbills means that the bird eats soft foods. Their diet is mostly fruits.

here are some pix's of a new Blue-naped pairs I bought last week. They were wild caught imports, and are new bloodlines for me.


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## Jenny10

I dont think we have them over here, i have never seen them before, I bet it will take awhile for them to settle, i bet you have had to treat them for mites and worms.

Actually Susanne that reminds me, i will be needing your advise soon, on a Lutino i managed to pick up a bird sale last week, she does have a slight bald spot, depending on what you call slight, but for over here she is the best i have seen, many over here are completly bald on the top and goes down the back of the neck too, so decided to go for it, i couldnt bellieve it when i saw a guy selling two lutino's just inside the door i had a quick look, then i quickly ran round the hall just to check there wasnt any more, then ran back and picked the best one, i was just in time too because another couple were looking at the lutino's, but i grabbed the guy and said i wanted a closer look at the lutino's, the other couple actually had the other, its funny because when i first went to a bird sale i couldnt see what the big deal was to get inside, now i am the lunatic that will quickly sweep round the room before going back to where i saw the best birds if there are any at all worth buying, lol, you dont see that many cockatiels for sale in the bird sales over here.

i have currently treated her for mites as i noticed she had black things running through her feathers, but the problem with my spray stuff is it leaves the feathers looking sticky but it kills everything, so she is having soaking spray baths at the moment to get that out the feathers, but breeding her is where i will need your advise, i know there are a few others on here that may be able to help but it is your knowledge really that is the best, if you dont mind when her feathers are looking a bit better could i PM you some pictures of her, bald spot and all, and get your advise on the best way to go with her?


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## srtiels

As to the lutino the best thing to try and do is find a pied male that is split to lutino. If you can not find one then pair her with a nice pied or WF pied. Hold back the sons. they will carry the pied and lutino, and will produce lutino daughters with good head feathering.

Mousebirds are from Africa. Possibly some of the zoos may have them in AUS. Actually mousebirds are very hardy birds and I have yet to find any health issues with them, and I have almost 40 mousebirds, varying ages. As to mites and external parasites...they take daily sand baths which keeps the skin dry and keeps parasites off them. If any greens have a slightly fuzzy texture, this acts as a scour in the GI tract as far as internal parasites.


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## Jenny10

seems like they are a good bird to keep, mite and worm free, lol, with the lutino i am thinking going pied male like you say non split to lutino so that i will know the qaulity of the lutino gene isnt too bad, but just another thought, if i did partner to a wf pied, i am guessing the males or at least some would carry wf and lutino and if i were to parner one of those males to wf pied hen then i would get some wf lutino's as well.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, everyone, i have taken some video image with my camera of the little guy being spoon fed, i hope it works, if it does, sorry if you hear me shout at the dogs they started fighting not only that the noise of the dogs startled the little guy abit.


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## srtiels

Thanks for the video. Spoon feeding looks real easy...I'll have to try it one day.

You baby has filled out very nicely! It looks like it is going to have excellent confirmation, and holds it's wings nicely now. With the very broad shoulder there is a possibility it might be a female.

Good points in your other posting about split to lutino. Your right, with a split male you are not going to know what type of lutino was in the background.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i thought she may have been a girl because the width of the legs seems to be quite wide apart at the top and i did read somewhere that the females would have more width between the legs, if hen i will be keeping, i dont think i will be able to part with her being my first baby, but i expect even if boy i will keep, lol, today she is not very keen to eat any formula i am not worrying too much as I think she might be preparing for the first flight, when do you think i can move her into a cage, i dont think she needs the heat from the brooder anymore, i have turned the tempature down so much now that it rarely even comes on, when i weighed her last night after her last feed for the day she weighed 120g although it did flicker up to 121 before finally settling on 120g

with my Lutino i am thinking best to take the time regarding breeding and get a really nice big pied male excellent crest, lol, and no cinnamon in the background, so i will be phoning around a few breeders to try and get that perfect male for a lutino hen to hopefully get some good strong splits, I know you have mentioned before but what part of the eye should i exactly be looking at to avoid a bird carrying cinnamon, can you tell from the eye if it is carrying cinnamon?


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## Renae

The sexing by legs isn't 100% accurate. My Lutino, Ella, always has her legs close together and is definitely a female. 

By the way you need to update your # of Cockatiels!


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## srtiels

Zeus should be split to cinnamon. Shine a flashlight/torch indirectly at his eye. The pupil will reflect back a wine color instead of solid black. This is how I detect splits to cinnamons with my males.

Since the baby is fully feathered you can acclimate it to room temps. During the day you can have the baby get used to being in a cage. For the first few days let it sleep in the brooder at night.

About this age she/he will start to level out on weight and even lose a few gram getting ready to want to take off flying. Since the baby has been flapping it will soon take off on you. let it do any flying *before *you handfeed it so that it doesn't land wrong with a full crop, which can force food up the crop, and possibily cause slight aspiration. Once it starts to fly and used to the cage it will start cutting back on the amount of formula it wants. When you see this start reducing the middle feeding by 1cc a day and then skip it.


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## Jenny10

thanks Susanne, i will prepare a decent cage for the little one and let s/he get used to it in the day, and pop back in the brooder of a night.

solace, i will get around to updateing my bird info i have 9 birds now, i actually have a heavy pied hen too, i picked up at another bird sale, but she had been badly plucked but i could see alot of potential in size and shape, so thought i would get her and let her tidy up, she looks good now, i am planning to take aload of photo's soon and put my flock up in the pictures page's soon.


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## Jenny10

Hi Everyone, well i have pulled the eggs from Zeus and Hera, Dad has been sitting, But mum for some reason dosnt want to sit, i dont know if any of the eggs will still be any good, but there was no signs of life whenever we candled them, so they might not have got to that point, i made decision last night when both Zeus and Hera were snuggled up together on the perch for a sleep no thought of the eggs, the last i think if fertile 3 and 4 could have a chance but the other 2 i am doubtful, but i will give it ago, the other thing is that i am using the brooder to keep them warm as i dont have a incubator so the temperature is fluctuating between 38.8 and 36.3 it is set at 37.5 but at least they will stand a better chance than what mum and dad are doing.

I moved the little guy into his weaning cage yesterday and he was doing so well i decided to leave him there for the night, plus i wanted the brooder, but i did leave a heater on of the night time for him, but he is getting up on the bottom perch and sits there pretty much all day and pecking at the millet i attached just by the perch, i will get some pictures later today.


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## Jenny10

just a little update, well the little guy is doing great in his weaning cage, getting up on the pearch easily now, he even took to flight around the kitchen yesterday is actual first flight he flew from the work top when I was feeding him and landed on my shoulder which took me a little by surprise because i thought he wouldnt have alot of control.

Susanne maybe you can answer, Neil thinks the bird takes after dad Zeus despite having mums colouring, although dad is carrying cinnamon, and is pearl, but the chicks face does look like Zeus shape, knowing how the hens get their genes from dad, and you thought she could be a she, does that sound right that the features of a daughter could resemble dad? does what i am saying make sense?

also one of the eggs i put in the brooder is fertile and coming along nicely, another one has only just started showing signs of life, there was two tiny red dots, but I just have a feeling it might be no good, wasnt sure if their was a slight trace of a blood ring, although the egg was showing no signs of life last night so probably a bit to early to tell.

Hera laid another egg last night, i pulled it and put in the brooder and put egg #1 in the box which i am sure is infertile or dead, as there is nothing in signs of life despite others showing signs, they havnt been sitting on the dud egg at all, so i have made the right call because if fertile which i am sure #5 will be it will stand a chance, if they all hatch i could be possibly raising 4 chicks from day one, but thats fine i will give them the chance at life and do my best to keep them alive, now i have more experience I am hopeful i can do it.


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## tielmom

wow...you are doing a great job...keep up the good work and keep us posted.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Tielmom.


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## cookie232

Sounds like you have your hands full Jen  Good luck with the eggs x Can't wait to see some more pics of the little one and your newer tiels


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## Jenny10

Update, well mum laid another egg in the night, it was freezing cold this morning so pulled it and placed in the brooder and put egg #2 in the box, which is still clear after being in the brooder, so pretty sure that egg was either infertile or mum and dad killed it, #5 which pulled from the nest also fairly soon is actually developing and 3 the more developped one is coming along nicely there is still a red vein in 4 but i think it is a blood ring and that egg is no good, so assuming egg 6 which i placed in the brooder this morning is ok, it looks like i will be raising 3 chicks from day one.

I am hoping by replacing the freshly laid eggs with duds that this will at least stop mum from laying, but i am worried the infertile eggs will go bad, has anyone ever thought of or boiled infertile eggs as i am thinking this will prevent them from going bad, and give me some dud egg's to keep and use again in the future, i think the reason mum isnt sitting is we may have a mouse in the house, would a mouse upset a cockatiel enough not to sit?


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## roxy culver

I don't know about the mouse but I do know that if an egg is infertile its ok to leave it in the box because the parents would use it for warmth for the other eggs. Now boiling it I think after a while it would still go bad. Have you tried seeing if you can get ahold of some plastic eggs to use?


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## Jenny10

thanks Roxy, i have had a look at buying some in the local pet stores but i have only ever seen chicken size or bigger parrot eggs, no Cockatiel size, i could probably get some if i ordered from the states, but then i would need to find sites that would ship here as well, i cant seem to find any australian sites that do cockatiel eggs again poultry and bigger parrots


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## srtiels

An infertile egg is sterile inside...so they is nothing to spoil. What it will do is dehydrate.

If you can find eggs you can make them. If you have a local hibby/craft shop ask them if they have any home oven bake modeling compound such as Fimo or Sculpty. Use one of your eggs as a guide and model a fake egg the same color and shape. Foloow directions on baking...which is a short time in a home oven.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i was thinking perhaps i could make some, now i will know what materials to ask for, we have plently of arts and craft shops over here.

here are some pictures today just before a feed taken of my baby, i cant really call him little any more, i am still on 5 hr feeds, i am not sure what to drop down to now, s/he looks forward to her feeds and is pacing her weaning cage like a animal at the zoo waiting to be fed, i think i am getting into a bad routine in that i stay up till gone midnight so i can get another feed in before i sleep, s/he always feeds really well with that meal, s/he is eating food for herself i am sure s/he is actually eating it now, but i am not very good at feeling the crop through all the feathers to see, so i cant tell if there is hard bits or not in there, anyway here are the pics i think you will all see how much s/he as grown.


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## srtiels

Wow...he/she is going to be a beauty ...and has really grown.

At this age I ususally have them at 3 feedings a day, especially if I see them eating. Then when the tail is 1" longer the middle feeding is reduced and skipped. BUT, all babies are different. The times when you will feel food in the crop are ususally late in the day, when the bird knows it is bedtime. Fell the base of the neck, with the crop skin between your fingers to feel is anything is in there.


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## Berdnerd

Wow, what a gorgeous baby- can't believe it's the same birdy as a couple weeks ago! They suddenly look really grown up when they get all their feathers in, especially mutations like yours.


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## tielmom

Gorgeous...Great job


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## roxy culver

What a beauty!!!


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## Jenny10

thanks Susanne, and everyone for your kind comments on my baby.

This is going to be a little long there are a few things i want to mention

trying to think of name for him/her at the moment, i just cannot part with him/her, Rocky has come to mind has he/she does rock from side to side if startled, and sometimes i think it is male, because mannerism is so much like dad at times, strong and bold at times, when he wants a feed i can now go over to the weaning cage open the door and walk away and he will fly to me and land on my head easily, no fear in flying, infact he's a good flyer, i have many times read Cockatiels are not good flyers and i am beginning to disagree with this fact and think it is actually due to the fact many are clipped before given the chance to fly. The weaning cage really isnt letting him stretch his wings enough, he can fly well around the room without hitting anything, always lands back on my head or shoulder, i am thinking would he be old enough to go in with Tira and Coco, they have a indoor flight cage this would give him more oportunity to stretch his wings, just a bit worried they might pick on him, although smaller he is a good size so not too much smaller than them?

he also has started trying to copy me wolf whistling at him, so at times i do think he could be a he, but i guess time will tell.

the eggs in the brooder are also coming along well, 3 were fertile and are developing, Saturday at my local pet store they had just had a new lot of cockatiles in, they had quite alot of cinnamon lutino's no bald patches nice cinnamon pearls, cinnamons, i didnt really want to buy any because i do have alot of thouse colours except the cinnamon lutino's but i want clean lutino's anyway, but there was a egg on the cage foor, so i asked if i could have the egg so they gave me the egg as i have bought birds from there before, i have no idea if it will be fertile or not, but it is in the brooder with the other eggs i will give it the chance at life if it is fertile, the shop would have only thrown it out anyway, but if fretile it will be intersting to see what mutation i end up with, lol, it is a big egg, it's a bit bigger than my eggs from Zeus and Hera.


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## srtiels

You can try him in the flight cage. Watch him for awhile to see how he gets around in it. That is great he is flying so well, and he knows where to land on his Mommy 

As to the egg it will be interesting to see if it is fertile or not, and you can candle when it is 4-5 days along to get an idea of if it going to be a dark eyed bird or red-eyed.

In regards to cinnamon lutino...these are an actual mutation in the US...and if they are worked with a breeder can develop the color so that it is a beautiful pinkish-beige and looks similar to a dilute fallow.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i will let Rocky have ago in the flight cage today, with mummy watching, make sure Tira and Coco play nice, lol

I can report the mystery egg is fertile, got a small heart beat this morning and veins, Neil finds this so exciting wondering what mutation it will be, lol


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## srtiels

That is great if the egg is fertile. You might ask the shop if they will save more eggs for you. Saved eggs should be kept in an open container at room temperature, and turned once or twice a day for up to 10 days with no problems.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, sorry it's been awhile, but you are so busy on here offering everyone advise that unless i have a need i keep quiet, but i do have some questions now i would like your thoughts on.

The mystery egg, has developped a dark patch see images, i have read this means the egg is bad, but when i candle it, it still looks good, nice red veins, see photo's below i am thinking it is a weakness in the shell, i have covered the patch with clear nail polish and hoping all will be well, what do you think?

























Also little Rocky is doing well seems to be eating for himself quite well, i have him on four feeds a day now, but i was woundering should i be offering him grit at this stage to help with digestion off the solids? he also is loving his leafy greens.


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## srtiels

The dark spot may have been a very tiny crack. That is great that you sealed it over. The veining in it looks very good.

I would hold off on giving him any grit for awhile. Once almost weaned you might then scatter a few pieces on some paper on the bottom of the cage for him to pick at.


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## tielmom

Looks like Rocky is doing really well...what a beautiful tiel...the markings are gorgeous.
Looking forward to hearing and seeing more about your mystery egg. WOW, that is so cool that there is life in there, sad to think it would have just been discarded. Good luck with your babies and the new ones coming too


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## roxy culver

You are so lucky you saved that egg, just think that's one more life you saved from just being thrown away!!! That is so awesome!!!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, Tielmom, Roxy,

i am quite excited about the prospect of saving and giving that egg the chance of life, it will be so fantastic if i can actually succesfully hatch and develop the chick into a healthy happy bird, but i know i have a long way to go, and many sleepless nights ahead, lol

not to menstion Hera laid another egg today, they wont stop breeding, i am getting worried about her health, and whats worse she dosnt sit of a night time, so i am in the dilema do i start pulling these eggs too, dad sits in the day so does his bit, but mum sits on the box entrance of a night and not actually on the egg, i did try replacing the last lot of eggs with the other eggs that were no good, but they started burrying them in the bedding so they knew the differnce,


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## srtiels

Do you have another pair you can set up? I learned to have 2 pairs setup at the same time. This way I had a backup, just in case one pair didn't sit well or feed.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, no i dont have another pair, i have plenty of hens no mates for them as of yet, Neil is actully in the process of building me an aivery so they can go out side, and i am hoping i will be able to contact some good breeder when the aivery is ready so i can get specific genes in the males and avoid unwanted colours that males can carry, thats the plan anyway, we are buiding a larger colony set up and also two seperate area's that can be used for young birds to mature and also bond a pair before moving into the colony set up, although i am already thinking i might have problem with Zeus having a roaming eye, i think he already talks to all the girls, and Neil thinks he might be agressive to other males, because he is really agressive, i still have a scar on my finger from when he bit me and wouldnt let go.

Susanne, sorry going on a bit, but I would just like to talk about Hera abit, is there any reasons that you can see, why she has developped this behaviour of not sitting properly (she sat really well with the eggs of her first clutch), i think it may have started back when Rocky was in the nest, because if you remember she was doing it then and i was having concerns he would get cold of a night?

Also her behaviour at times is strange, she seems to constantly want to be near Zeus, so much so at times he gets aggressive with her, but i thinks she wants to be close to him even of a night when she should be sitting, although he sits right next to the box of a night, and sometime's i see him like try and push her in the box when she's sitting on the rim like he knows she's not sitting on the eggs, and even now she is laying eggs she is still chasing him around for sex, i did wonder if they were a bondage pair, but i dont think so, Zeus will more than happily share the food bowl and she will even push herself under him in the food bowl but there is no aggresion from him and they do snuggle up to each other at times asleep when they havnt got eggs, and i would say he is to agressive for her to be the one that is creating the bondage, i have never seen any aggresion from her towards him, is it possible a bird could just enjoy sex and not want to bother with the eggs, lol, even when he was on the eggs the other day she was out and feeding on the bowl and she was doing the begging for sex calls and bobbing on the food bowl?


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## srtiels

_*is it possible a bird could just enjoy sex and not want to bother with the eggs,*_
*-------------------------------------*

The short answer is yes. She may be more interested than Zues in mating...but just to mate and not really raise a clutch. He may know this, which may be why he is trying to block her in the nest...hoping she'll get the hint and take care of things.


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## Jenny10

Yes that makes sense Susanne, its funny becasue i never thought about this before, but Zeus is currently on the eggs and Hera is in box with him, not sitting on the rim like she normally does when he's out of the box, but in the bottom right next to him, i always thought that it was because they were just good parents both being in the box, but now i am thinking Hera's obsession with Zeus is that she is in the box to be with him, also thinking about it there as been times they have both been out the box in the evening and although it wouldnt be Zeus time to be in the box, he will go in and then Hera will follow and then he will come out, so i think he is trying to get her in the box, clever boy.


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## Jenny10

Ok everyone, a little excited one of the eggs in the brooder is piping, i didnt think any were due until next week, but i could have a chick by the end of today, i will keep you all posted. 

oh the joy of sleepless nights will begin, lol


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## Jenny10

Hubby is out building my Aivery here are some pictures of the frame, it looks bigger than i thought it would be, so thats a plus if there is more room, i am lucky that my guy is very handy at DIY and can design and build me an Aivery, i will have a passage down the back which will be a saftey passage and sepperate doors into the sections which have yet to be put in.


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## srtiels

Thats great! Eggs average hatching at 18 days. If before it could be from the temps just a fraction warmer than 37.5C Heat excelerates hatches, and cooler temps delay hatches by a day or two.

Wiw!...your new aviary is going to be NICE! I can't wait to see it when it is done, and the birds in it.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, the pipping dosnt appear any further along i have tappped on the egg and all is silent so no distress sounds, i am worried if i go to sleep and he hatches in the night he will get too hot and dehydrate if directly under the lamp, so am planning to move him once hatched just to the side the heat it wont be quite as hot for him, do you think i will be ok checking every 4 hrs through the night to see what the pipping/hatching stage is at, or is that too long?


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## srtiels

Checking through every few hours is fine. Remember, the chick will have absorbed the yolk sac...so food is not a priority for the first 12-24 hrs....just fluids. So if it does hatch while sleeping you should be fine. What I do is wet a paper towel under the egg so that it has some moisture. keep the pipside up on the egg.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i am wetting the bedding the eggs are on anyway to keep moisture levels up in the brooder, since noticing the piping i have not turned the egg, i know it can take awhile for them to hatch, Rocky started the day before and then was there by the morning, must have hatched early hours of the following morning, i am thinking best try and make the most of the sleep i can grap now before the little guy hatches, lol


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## srtiels

LOL...yes, try and get as much sleep now as you can because you will soon be busy with the littles ones


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## roxy culver

Go baby Go!!! And that is an awesome aviary!!!


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## tielmom

:thumbu: YEAH...look forward to hearing about the news soon...The aviary looks awesome and you are very fortunate to have a husband who can build you one. Yep, better catch as much sleep as possible, because you are going to be really busy soon


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## Berdnerd

Do you have a baby yet?


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## Jenny10

Thanks Tielmom and Berdnerd, the short answer is no, Susanne, i am not looking forward to it, but i think i am going to have to intervine, it's been over 24 hrs now since the initial pip, and there is a little progess, but not alot, i did tap on the egg when i turned the other eggs and the little guy was chirping back, so would you take that as i sign he might need assistance, i would prefer to let him get out himself but do have concerns the membrane could be dry?


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I hope Susanne checks the thread soon! I don't envy you having to make that decision. Good luck!


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## Jenny10

ok i tapped again and he sounded weaker, and no extra progress on the piping, so i made the decision to have a look in the air cell, i think the membrane has dried a little bit, but i can still see red veins within it and the chick did seem to perk up with me making the hole, but i dont think he is in amediate danger, and is not quite ready to come out yet, i have placed back in the brooder on some very damp kitchen towel as i do not want him to dry out now that i have opened a hole, but shouldnt really, within the brooder.


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## Jenny10

Susanne, when you read this, thinking about it, should i place a bit of damp kitchen towel over the hole i made?


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, what about moistening a q tip with bottled water and dabbing the membrane with it so it doesn't dry out? I seem to recall Susanne's article about assisting hatches saying to do that.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd it wasnt dry when i looked so have to be careful i dont put to much moisture in and drown the little chick, but i will keep an eye on it, and if it starts drying out i will moisten with water.


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## srtiels

Jenny, the top of the egg can be open, as long as you keep some type of moisture, like a wet paper towel under it. Just check the membrane occassionally to make sure it is not completely dry on the chick. Hopefully soon it will draw in the veins, then the yolk. I'm guessing you may have another 12 hours or so before it draws in everything.


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## cookie232

How exciting Jenny  Hurry up with an update x


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i will keep a close eye on him over the next 12 hours.

Also i am never going to be ending 2 hour feeds i have just this evening pulled another 2 eggs from Hera, they are burrying the new eggs they have just laid, so i decided to pull them because they were cold anyway, but probably to young to done any real damage to the undeveloped egg, so now they are in the brooder, i am going to have to buy another brooder becasue the differnt age levels of chicks i will have, she is probably likely to lay another 5 eggs yet, then i am going to take the box away, i dont want her burning herself out, without the box she can have as much sex as she wants provided Zeus can keep up, lol


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## Jenny10

Thanks Em, i think we were typing the same time, nerve racking is more the word i would go with than exciting, lol


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## Berdnerd

You have quite a bit of work ahead of you! You're going to be an expert baby bird raiser before long


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## Jenny10

Yes i will be busy, this is abit of a strange question the little guy in the egg is still chirping away inside the egg, and i have heard him trying to chip again, the veins are nearly gone, so will leave for the moment see if he can get on his own, now mum and dad were given a couple of eggs that i boiled that were infertile, but boiling them did create a couple of dents, well looked in the box today and the ones with the dents it looks like mum and dad thought there was a chick trying to hatch because they have punched holes into them and it looks like they have tried to go round the middle in a line and get the chick out, just wondering if i put the egg that is trying to hatch in the box and the way the chick is quite vocal is it possible they might assume care back and even get him out the shell?


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## tielmom

That is a good question...that would be wonderful if they would help the baby...looking forward to hearing what happens...Are you getting any rest? You need to try, while there is still time. Good luck girl...keep us posted.


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## Jenny10

thanks Tielmom, ok i started chipping away at the egg earlier today, membrane was reasonably free of veins i started to continue chipping a bit more just now, the chick is a strong little chick and i am delighted to say with a little help from me is out, he is back in the brooder drying out at the moment but i will get some pictures up shortly but in meantime here is the picture i took just before i started chipping the egg again








i am now on the night shift with no sleep, lol


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## Berdnerd

Aw look at him waving hello! I'm so glad the assist hatch went well 

Annnnnd cue beginning of sleepless nights!


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## cookie232

Awe bless  looking forward to more pics x


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## Jenny10

ok here are some more pics, Susanne i am guessing that black in the yolk in the tummy is normal, he seems strong enough.








i have just sorted out a soft glove stuffed with stuffing, this should prevent any aspiration when i start giving fluids because i can rest his head on the fingers, he seems very comfy resting his little head over the finger, sleeping now in the brooder and drying out.


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## Berdnerd

So cute! And about the black- I may be wrong, but I seem to recall Susanne saying that if you can see black in the belly, it's the intestine and a sign that the chick is dehydrated. Seems possible since it took the little dude so long to hatch. It would probably good to feed him a drop of Pedialyte but I understand if you want to wait until Susanne checks in, or you could browse around on her website and try to find something that references it.


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## Berdnerd

Okay Jenny I found this link of Susanne's about the black intestine being a sign of dehydration: http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Assist Hatch/Yolk-in.jpg

It's from about 2/3 down this page under the heading "Out of the Egg":

http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/assist-hatches.html


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, i have electolytes solution on hand so will start getting it into him.


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## srtiels

As berdnerd mentioned the dark intestines are a sign of some dehydration, so once dry a drop of pedialyte may help. As the baby pops it will work this out of the body.

do you have a pair sitting on eggs...even fake ones. What you can do is put an egg that is close to the stage of turning and getting ready to pip (slanted air cell) This will stimulate the parents to eat and retain fluids in the crop to feed the baby when it hatches. If they can hatch out an egg you can also foster the new hatchling in with them.


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## Jenny10

no only Zeus and Hera, and they havnt been being the best parents of late, at this stage Susanne with him being a little dehydrated how often should i be getting fluids into him? should it be every two hrs or should i attempt earlier?


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## srtiels

Every hour or two. Look at the crop after a crop is fed. if the base looks nice and rounded, 1 drop is fine. It'll take 12 hrs before it will take two drops. But during this time the intestines should lighten up as it poops.


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## Jenny10

thanks Susanne, its so hard to know if he is even taking the fluid's but the crop looks rounded so i think he is, but i worry it could be air, but he dosnt look to be getting red on the wing tips so guessing he is getting some, becasue i am definitly getting the fluid in the mouth


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## Jenny10

ok Susanne, just read your previous post again and was going to ask how long it should take for the black to lighten but you already answered, i am sure i am getting fluids in but i am not seeing the black area lighten up yet, although the chick seems quite strong, so i dont think he is getting weaker, i am also paranoid about aspiration i am wedging him up when his little crop looks full, and keep checking alot when he goes back in the brooder to make sure he is settling down and not getting his head in an awkward positon he can choke himself, i am happy when he is sleeping with his head resting higher up on the finger, lol


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## Jenny10

just got some more fluids in and had a look at his tummy again, and the black area appears to breaking up, so i am guessing thats good.

some more news another egg as just started piping.


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## Berdnerd

Glad to hear things are going okay with the little one! And exciting about the new egg  Busy busy soon, huh? If it makes you feel any better, Phoenix took a while to hatch (not to the point that I needed to assist but I was thinking I might have to) and he was a bit dehydrated when he hatched. That combined with being the last chick to hatch meant he got thicker food than is best for hatchlings AND he had bigger siblings to compete with. I was concerned for several days about his slow growth and the doughiness of his crop. In the end, though, he's the one who survived, and that's even with that bout of sour crop at 2 1/2 weeks old. So if Phoenix can do it, so can your baby


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## Jenny10

thanks Berdnerd, i certainly hope so, i am strugling to stay awake at the moment, i think i slept for about half an hour last night in the chair, and i am thinking about setting my mobile on an alarm so it will wake me in time for the next lot of fluids if i fall asleep, at the moment i am putting fluids in every hour an half, shift that black area.

but i knew what i was getting into when i pulled the eggs and decided to give them a chance at life with me rather than leave them with mum and dad when mum wasnt sitting and they didnt really stand a chance, if i can get them through the first few days i will be hopeful, it is really hard at the moment with not so great feeding responces and being so small, but i will do my best for them, and that is all i can do.


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## Jenny10

update, i think the little one is weakening, i have still been giving fluids the yolk sac is still there but it has gone down, i guess he would have had about 12 hrs now of fluids so i am thinking should i switch to formula next feed but mix with the electrolites water, and add brobotics see if that perks the little guy up, he didnt seem keen on any more water, last feed


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## Jenny10

the little chick died, i had mixed up a formula for him, i am beginnig to think it is a waste of time trying to rear them from day one, and kinder if the parents dont do there bit just leave them to kill there babies in the egg, i have another one piping hasnt made much progress probably be the same and die.


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## tielmom

Oh, I am sorry Jenny10...don't give up...let's hope for the best with this next baby. Is it in the brooder or with the parents? I am thinking that you mentioned that you took it out. You know that you can do this...LOOK at Rocky...he is gorgeous =)
Please let us know how the new baby is doing.
Which egg is the one that you got from the pet store?


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## Jenny10

Thanks Tielmom, i always try to think to give the chance of life is better than not at all, but at the moment it feels like i am causing suffering and i feel sorry for the next little chick who will probably die because of me, i always think no it will be fine i can do it, and i cant, the next poor little sod is a egg the parents stopped sitting on.

Rocky was differnt mum and dad took care of him untill he was 3 weeks old, then they started loosing intrest, so i pulled him, but he wasnt tiny like these one's


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## Jenny10

ok rethink, i have another one on the way so i have to refocus and do my best, Susanne, do you think ordering some proper small feeding syringes would make a differnce, i think the little one might of aspirated despite me proping him up, it's getting a small enough ammount of liquid in that is the problem i think some went down the wrong way, the chick didnt have a very good feeding responce, i may be able to order some proper small syringes for next day delivery, hopefully before the little guy hatches out fully,

i dont want to feed directly in the crop, but if i could get somthing small enough that i could control the amount of liquid better, it probably would help, can you recommend a size/type for 1 day old chicks? (i dont really know anything about crop feeders)


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, I'm so sorry  That's why I had my husband "euthanize" the first 3 eggs of the second clutch Arthur and Poppet laid- I was afraid the same thing would happen to them as the other babies and I'd rather have them not begin to develop than hatch, live for a while, suffer, and die. I couldn't bear it. Then when they laid 2 more eggs, I had a change of heart and decided to give them a chance. As you know, the same thing happened. They got sick, suffered a ton, and poor Nico has died but Izzy's still fighting. If I knew what the future held, I would have stopped them from developing back when they were first laid. I kind of feel like if Izzy survives and is healthy, Nico's death won't have been in vain at least.

Sorry to hijack. Just wanted to say that I understand how you're feeling. It's kinder to simply not have the egg hatch then have them hatch and die, but at the same time there's always that hope that it could be better next time... I trust that whatever you decide to do, it will be the right decision and of course we'll be here to support you. I think you're quite brave for taking on all these newly hatched babies!


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## Jenny10

Thanks Berdnerd, i think it dont help when your also a sleep deprived and then the little why dies, i have been looking on line and there are medical syringes over here for giving medication to birds with tiny balls on the end so there smooth, they do a really small one that is for finches and canary size birds, so thinking one of those will be perfect for a 1 day old cockatiel, hubby is going to look in our local pet barn, on his way home from work tonight see if they have them there, the mail order site said they ship within 24-48 hrs of order, but there was no special delivery option so probably wouldnt even arrive in time for this chick, but also have another 5 eggs in the brooder (although i think two might be DIS), Hera started laying again, and again dad was sitting mum wasnt.


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## Berdnerd

Jenny, have you got more sleep? When I was super sleep deprived with Kieran, Teddy and Neeja, it was SO hard. Getting decent sleep makes everything much clearer! What size syringes have you been using for the tiny babies?


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## Jenny10

no, i was half asleep in the chair, when hubby put my tea in front of me and woke me up,
good news my hubby was able to pick up the crop needle at our local pet barn, previously i was just using a standard 3ml/cc syringe, and end on those are still to big for a tiny chick, i have been playing around with the crop needle and i can get a perfect little drop on the end which will be a perfect size for the tiny beak of a one day old chick, see the picture's below i have also taken with the end against a standard computer key to give some comparison of size, this was a gauge 18 for finches and canaries and it fits onto any plastic syringe i can buy from the chemist lol, of course i dont intend to stick in the crop, just use it for getting that tiny droplet, hopefully with having better tools for the task ahead i might be more succesful.


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## cookie232

Oh Jen I have just read all your last posts  You tried your best hun x x


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## Jenny10

Thanks Em, have to refocus now, there is another egg piping, its unfortunate but when you are dealing with birds so small i guess it dont take alot to mess it up, and unfortunatly you only can do better the next time becasue of past mistakes, and looking at what you can do differently.


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## cookie232

Stay positive hun and keep us posted  x


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## Berdnerd

I'm glad you got the crop needle! My only experience with those is when the vet used one to empty Kieran's crop- she did a terrible job and it was very painful for him. So that's what I associate crop needles with. I hope it works well for feeding tiny babies, looks like it will!

You should go get some sleep before you have another baby hatch.


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## srtiels

_*i dont want to feed directly in the crop, but if i could get somthing small enough that i could control the amount of liquid better, it probably would help, can you recommend a size/type for 1 day old chicks? (i dont really know anything about crop feeders)*_
_*-----------------------------------*_

About 10 years ago I had to move several hundred tiels. I had alot of pairs on eggs and had close to 100 eggs that I had to incubator hatch to save them. Feeding from Day one can be a nightmare and I did learn that you can crop feed from Day 1.

I used these: http://www.earmaxx.com/products_3.php ...which was the 2.2smm size attached to a 1cc/ml syringe. I would weigh the chick and feed 10% of body weight. I don't know if they ship to AUS, but you can email them and ask.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne they look really good, i could even get them cut to a shorter lenght to make handling them easier, they will ship other area's just have to contact them, i will have a look tomorrow and see if they have a stockist over here, they had a suppliers list on the site


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## srtiels

NO...don't cut the length. In doing so it will not have the soft edges. Cut edges can lacerate the throat. It says they can be cut, but I personally would not risk it. Also get the next size up, because you can use it when the baby is 10 days and older to weaning.

Hopefully the site can refer you to a distributor in your country if they don't ship to AUS. I know they sell to alot of vets in the US. This may be something your vet or a regular vet may be interested in carrying.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, 

Hi guys, update, going to break in the air cell in the piping egg, i have a bad feeling about it, it's been 24 hrs since seeing the first pip signs yesterday morning, and i have been tapping on and off yesterday and this morning, nothing, candeled cant see any signs of movement, the pip as not increased at all, so i am thinking either we are in a bad way in there, or dead, i will keep you posted.


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## Jenny10

just opened cell, it was as i suspected the chick is dead, dosent look like he got through the membrane properly and didnt quite pip into the air cell so posible reasons, but i couldnt of done anything sooner it would have been to early to interfere.


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## srtiels

Sorry for your loss. Could it have been malpositioned? If the wing is not up on the side of the head this makes it harder for it to hatch.


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## Jenny10

Thanks Susanne, i dont know, it smelled a bit, so i didnt want to break open more than was nessesary to confim it was dead, it looked like the beak was pretty much still under the first pip area, it is very likely it could have been malpositioned these eggs that Hera laid were on a small size, the next lot that are currently in the brooder and they were not sitting on are bigger eggs, i think one was turning fertile this morning, i also feel that brooder condition's are not quite stable enough and not helping the situation, i am currently looking online and planning on buying a proper incubator, this is the one i am looking at, it is manul turn, but i dont mind that, it gets expensive having all singing all dancing ones, what do you think, sounds ok?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190440605553


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## Berdnerd

Sorry to hear about the little one  If you think you're going to raise a lot of eggs in the future, I think investing in a "real" brooder would be a good idea. Maybe then the eggs would be able to hatch on their own?


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## Jenny10

well raising them form day one is not somthing i would do or attempt to do of my choice, but thinking ahead and i will have more breeding pairs, but you get eggs or even parents that dont sit well but would take on chicks fine once hatched, by having the equipment to get the chicks to a succesful hatch, you maybe able to place back with mum and dad, if you give them fake eggs in the meantime, or possibly move around to over pairs if you have that option also.

i know i get disheartened when i loose one, but now i have some better feeding impliments for a young bird, i think that could make the differnce in being succesful, so i am prepared to give it another go with the remaining eggs in the brooder, hopefully in the incubator soon, hubby thought the incubator looked good and went ahead and ordered one, he will be able to also use it for his finches.


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## tielmom

Oh Jenny, I am so sorry to hear of this one passing too. 

It must be so hard to get your hopes going and then tragedy strikes.
Now it sounds like you are prepared for doing everything that needs to be done in order to give them every chance possible to live. I was just wondering, Is the egg from the pet store getting close? I am so curious and excited to hear and see what little cutie comes out of it. That is going to be a COOL surprise...I wish you all the best with your next few eggs. How many do you have fertile, right now?


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## Jenny10

Thanks Tielmom i think the pet shop egg is DIS (Dead in Shell) i dont know if you remember i did post a while back saying it had developed a dark patch, maybe that was the beginning of it going bad, i dont see any movement whenever i candle it, but i am not 100% sure it is dead, so will leave in the brooder for a bit longer, the egg that was the other one Hera laid i think is also DIS i have thought that for along time, it would be piping around now and isnt, so i am pretty sure that is DIS, now the other 3 which are from a 3rd clutch, i think are infertile, i think i would have seen them turning by now so think they are just infertile, and they are still mating, she probabbly will lay another 4 yet so i plan to remove the nest box once i think she has finished laying.


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## tielmom

Oh bummer...I am sorry
She has laid quite a few, hasn't she?
Is she mating at all now or just laying?
Maybe these last few will be THE ONES


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## Jenny10

no they are at it all the time, i think the hen enjoys the mating more than the male, she is constantly chasing him around for sex, she must be very happy with her mate thats all i can say, but i think its the mating she wants to do but not care for the eggs when they arrive, dad does his bit with the eggs, its mum that's the she is obsessed with Zeus and will sit in the box with him when he is on egg duty but prefers to sit with him when he is out of the box and it is her turn to sit on the eggs.


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## tielmom

Wants to have the sex, but not raise those babies...hmmm, kind of sounds familiar. lol


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## Jenny10

Tielmom, lol, i think my husband is jealous of Zeus, lol

some good news i think, lol egg 3 from the 3rd clutch as started to vein up so is fertile, it is possible i muddled up 2 & 3 when marking them so 2 could be ok but is actually 3 if that makes sense, lol

there is a 4th egg but i am keeping that one in the cupboard at the momment until Hera finishes laying this clutch so hopefully the last lot of eggs will hatch and be the same age.

the incubator we bought arrived the next day so really quick delivery, had a test run over night last night and was holding a good steady temperature, no problems, so the eggs are now in the proper incubator, hopefully this will help with the hatching development of the chicks.


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