# Best temperature for the handfeeding formula



## huson

Hi everyone, I was wondering what is the best temperature for the hand feeding formula, because every book and website have different preference.

Some said: 100F-108F/ 104F-106F/ 105F-107F

I do have a digital thermometer, so I usually feed my cockatiel babies around 107F, is that too high??/

Btw, does anyone have a picture of crop burn?
What are the signs of crop burn???


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## srtiels

*Btw, does anyone have a picture of crop burn?
What are the signs of crop burn???*
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Yes...I have to look on my computer and will upload some later. 

Crop burn can occur from formula that is too hot. It first appears as a reddened sunburn look to the skin at the base of the crop. it takes a couple days for this to burn thru (for lack of better term) the skin, and then a hole appears in the bottom of the crop and the food leaks out. Another way to get crop burn is if the heating pad is too hot, and the chick sleeps with it crop pressed against it. I've never burned a crop from too hot formula, but I have from a heating pad.

I try for the formula at 104 degrees. I also place it in a pan of water to keep it from chiiling if I am feeding several babies. Feed approx 10% of body weight. I NEVER will feed over 10cc. 
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## srtiels

Ok...I found some crop burn pix's and did up an illustration sheet. The pix's are not the greatest because they were old from many years ago...
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## sweetrsue

107 is fine for formula. Any cooler and they probably won't eat it. 107 is body temp for tiels.


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## srtiels

Oh...another thing to keep in mind when handfeeding. *NEVER re-use formula.* Try to mix up what you will need for each feeding. I ususally count my babies, and according to age/size I estimate how much I will feed each one. For example if I am planning on feeding 6 babies 8cc I will measue out with the syringe 6 times with 7cc (1cc less, allowing for powdered content) of water....thus for 6 babies I'd start with 42cc. By the time I add the powdered formula it increase the volume so that I can feed the 8cc per baby with very little waste, if any.

As to checking the temps: You can get a digital thermometer from the grocery store, cooking store, or sometimes KMart. Get the digital not the dial. I start with water that is approx 106-7 degrees and by the time it is mixed it is 104 degrees, and place in a pan of water that is approx 1 degree warmer.

*NEVER* rewarm formula in a microwave. On a quick check it may measure the right temp, BUT it can contain what is called 'hot spots' or a few areas of the formula that is very hot. If the formula is too hot the baby will flinch/pull back and let out a sharp cry. Be on the alert for this if unsure of the actual temp of the formula. IF you do suspect that the chick ate some formula too hot, _immediately_ try to feed it 1-2CC of cold water and massage the crop contents.

Tiels crop skins are thinner than larger birds. A larger bird like an African Grey (just an example only) may prefer the formula at 110 degrees with no problem, and refuse it if it is cooler. This feel too warm for the tiels and they are more reluctant to eat it. I beleive at approx 112-115 you can scald a tiels crop, and over 115 degrees seriously burn it. 120 degrees is a definte scald/burn temperature. Scalding and burning are bad. Scalding may not burn thru, but can be problematic.

Enough... Enjoy your babies

Susanne


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## huson

Thnx again!! 

Phew~~I thought the formula is too hot for them~~~But I will try to lower the temperature to 105-106F just incase

Btw, Srtiels, I cannot save my stunted baby (4th), but I did save chick number 3 (the one that have nutrient deficiency). So now I only have 3 babies

Number 1 = cinnamon pearl (male)
Number 2 = Lutino pearl (not sure the sex yet)
Number 3 = normal gray (female)

Did I guess their gender right?

The father is normal split lutino
The mother is Lutino Pearl


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## srtiels

((HUGS))...I sorry to hear that the little stunted one may not be doing well 

_The father is normal split lutino
The mother is Lutino Pearl_

From the info on the parents the father is _also _split to cinnamon and pearl.

Baby #1 is a female
baby 2 and 3 could be either sex. You'll have to wait and see how they act as they get older.

As to getting an idea...*sometimes* you can look at the wing spots to get an idea.
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This is the underside of a young females wing. The spots may vary per bird..._but_ the spots will be on all the wing feathers all the way to the body.








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Next is the wing spots for a young male. Notice that not all the lower wing flight feathers have dots. The male will only have 1/2 to 2/3 of the flights with dots. *Also* and adult hens wing will look like an immature males wing. Note: The yellow feather on the upper portion of the wing is a result of being split to pied. 








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An adult male will molt out all of his wing dots/spots.








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A young pearls wing dots/spots will look similaiar to this. Normally with pearl the dots are similar to the last wing flight in size/pattern. When a pearl is split to pied the dots/spots will be elongated or irregular in shape.









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The above is not 100% accurate but from experience approx 85-90% accurate. many years ago Linda Greeson had noted and commented as to sexing by looking at the wingspots. *NOTE:* This applies to the solid colored birds (and pearls) When it comes to pieds you have to wait and see......

Susanne


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## tielfan

It looks like there has been a crossover here. The father's lutino and cinnamon genes are obviously on separate Xs, and yet he has one pearl chick in each of those colors. You'd expect results like that if the father was actually pearl, but then all the chicks would be pearl - no normals. 

From the cockatiel genetics calculator at http://www.kirstenmunson.com/cockatiels/blue.html ruling out the father actually being pearl:

Mother:Lutino Pearl
Fatherearl Split To {X1: Cinnamon} {X2: Lutino}
male offspring:
50% Pearl Split To {X1: Cinnamon} {X2: Lutino}
50% Lutino Pearl

female offspring:
50% Cinnamon Pearl
50% Lutino Pearl

See, no grey chicks.

The genetics calculator doesn't take crossovers into account. Here's what you can normally expect if the pearl gene is on the X with cinnamon:

Mother:Lutino Pearl
Father:Grey Split To {X1: Cinnamon Pearl} {X2: Lutino}

male offspring:
50% Pearl Split To {X1: Cinnamon} {X2: Lutino}
50% Lutino Split To {X2: Pearl}

female offspring:
50% Cinnamon Pearl
50% Lutino

No grey chicks here either.

If the pearl gene is on the X with lutino:

Mother:Lutino Pearl
Father:Grey Split To {X1: Cinnamon} {X2: Lutino Pearl}

male offspring:
50% Grey Split To {X1: Cinnamon} {X2: Lutino Pearl}
50% Lutino Pearl

female offspring:
50% Cinnamon
50% Lutino Pearl

So it looks like your male is split to cinnamon on one X and lutino pearl on the other, since that's the only way to get normal grey chicks. Your cinnamon pearl chick is the result of a crossover - don't expect a lot more of those! For sexing, treat this special case as if the father was actually pearl or carried the pearl gene on the cinnamon X. The genetics calculator says that any cinnamon pearl chicks will be female. 

Under the real scenario (X1 cinnamon, X2 lutino pearl), lutino pearl chicks can be either male or female. Grey chicks are male.

Unless it's possible for a crossover to result in a grey chick?? I don't know much about this stuff, but someone else here will know enough to correct me if I'm wrong.

Sorry for the length of the post. This stuff is complicated!


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## tielfan

P.S. on the wingspot method of sexing: it's iffy. Of the seven non-lutino chicks I had last year, the wingspots told the truth on 5 of them and lied on the other two. I had the two DNA'd because I couldn't figure out how they could be the sex that the wingspots indicated. One chick with "male" wingspots was DNA'd female, and one chick with "female" wingspots was DNA'd male. The male chick with female wingspots was Squeebis, he of the speckled chest and stripey head, and his spotty condition affects the underside of his wings. There's no known reason for the female chick to show male wingspots.


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## srtiels

Hmmm...I stopped using the genetic calculators years ago because many times what I got was not predicted. One mutation that is not listed that can also result, since it seems the father is also split to cinnamon is Cinnamon Lutino, which would be females. I have a couple of the pairs with the same splits as Huson, and they do give me some cinnamon Lutino, or Cinnamon Lutino Pearls. And with the grey babies from these pairings I have had both sexes.

'IF' One of the babies is a cinnamon lutino you will notice that some of the flight feathers will have a slight pinkish tan look, and also the barring on the tail. (illus has pix's but no script yet)

The wing sexing is not a 100% means of determining sex.
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## srtiels

Oh...I got sidetracked. A couple of things I wanted to mention when handfeeding that I feel is very important.

*Always* allow a chick to empty prior to the next feeding. I make it habit to place my finger at the base of the chicks crop _prior_ to feeding it. In doing this it is my first alert as to a potential problem, such as slow digestion which can contribute to sour crop.
Susanne


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## tielfan

You're right, a crossover could produce a cinnamon lutino chick or cinnamon lutino pearl, depending on whether the lutino gene crossed over to the cinnamon X or whether the cinnamon gene crossed over to the lutino pearl X. I was trying to account for the chicks that have already been born, not describe every possible variation that could occur. There could probably be other variations too, for instance if the pearl gene crossed over to the cinnamon X, the other X would now have just a plain lutino gene on it that could produce a plain lutino chick. My understanding of crossovers is shaky, but I think that's how it would work. Correct me if I'm wrong!


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## srtiels

Ok...I just tried the Color Palette, and here is what I got
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Mother:Lutino Pearl
Father:Grey Split To {X1: Cinnamon Lutino Pearl}
_I entered in grey split to lutino pearl cinnamon_

*male offspring:*
50% Lutino Pearl Split To {X1: Cinnamon}
50% Grey Split To {X2: Lutino Pearl}

*female offspring:*
50% Cinnamon Lutino Pearl
50% Grey

When it comes to crossovers and stuff I am clueless. Reading it is over my head. I've worked extensively with all the US mutations except sex-linked YC, and have learned more from visual results than reading.

As you also pointed out, yes you could also get a plain lutino.

Susanne


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## srtiels

The Color Pallette also did not account for the cinnamon pearl. I hate the calculators


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## tielfan

I don't think it's the calculator's fault - the calculator only tells you what would normally be expected. I think there had to have been a crossover here, because I can't figure out any other way to get a cinnamon pearl and a lutino pearl and a grey chick, if the colors of the parents and all the chicks have been reported to us correctly.

The rate of crossovers apparently isn't known with any certainty. I had thought they were quite rare, but a fairly brief internet search has some sources saying the rate could be as much as 30% for some mutations. I didn't find any info on which mutations seem to have a high crossover rate and which have a lower rate. If the rate is really that high, then a breeder with a lot of birds and a lot of mutations is going to see a pretty fair number of chicks that don't match the calculator results.

I like what you did with the calculation showing the father split to cinnamon lutino pearl on the same X! I hadn't thought of that one. It doesn't account for the cinnamon pearl chick unless there was a crossover, but it does show a perfectly normal way to get the other two chicks. Obviously there's more than one possible answer here so we shouldn't be too quick to accept one particular solution as the real answer.


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## huson

Thnx for helping, I will post some pictures of the chicks later on today.

The funny thing is that chick number one does have a cinnamon colour and random pearl dots. So dots near the should are yellow. 

For sure the 2nd chick is Lutino pearl, because there are more yellow pin feather opened up.

The third chick still look very normal to me, just like a normal gray chick~~~

So I guess ppl are suggesting that there is a crossover mutation for chick number 1???


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## srtiels

OK...we have _both lost track_ of the original resaon for Huson's posting. We need to take this to Mutations forum. It can be titled *Genetic calculators and other misc. stuff...* or whatever.

I gotta feed birds and babies...more later,...Susanne


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