# First time hand-feeder wondering about feet.



## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

I noticed something weird about the way my 15 day old Cockatiel walked, or should I say stumbled today. I'm not sure if the feet are supposed to look like what they look like at it's age or if there's actually something wrong, so I'm coming here for help. >< Here's a few pictures of it's feet. It doesn't just walk on it's feet, it also walks on it's backwards bird knee thing. 

Here's a link to some pictures.

http://img201.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=img0273sr.jpg

So.. yea.. just wondering if anything is wrong and if yes, what can I do to fix it?

It also seems like it didn't grow as fast as it should with momma birdy. I just removed him from his cage 2 days ago at 13 days.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Hello and welcome
If you could hang on im sure others will help you when they come on, im sorry i cant help you 
Lindsey


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

lperry82 said:


> Hello and welcome
> If you could hang on im sure others will help you when they come on, im sorry i cant help you
> Lindsey


Haha, thanks! I'm just one of those people that are REALLY paranoid. I don't have the option of raising this little bird in ideal conditions, so I have to improvise a LOT around the house. Don't really have any tools/equipment or anything. My dad has hand-fed a few Cockatiels he got from breeders, but this is the first one that actually hatched with our birds. And I decided to take it under my wing! No pun intended. I'm also keeping my eye on one more bird that hatched a few days after this one. I'm worried that because this is the parents' first batch of hatching eggs, they don't know what to do with them. When I took the 13 day old bird out, it didn't look nearly on track (using other people's day 1 to weaning pictures as reference). And when they grow up, they could keep each other company.  I just have a lot of questions, but I'll take it one question at a time.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Just keep posing them  but i cant help with breeding stuff like that.
Im new to tiel owning for 4 months now ( wow seems alot longer than 4 months)
which i have lucky the grey female and cookie pearl pied male


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

From my own experience, it seems normal. Mine did that as well, balancing on the back of their feet, almost like balancing on their heels. If he's not growing as fast you might want to thicken the food a little bit. As long as you keep him warm and feed and clean he should be all right. Good luck!!!


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

roxy culver said:


> From my own experience, it seems normal. Mine did that as well, balancing on the back of their feet, almost like balancing on their heels. If he's not growing as fast you might want to thicken the food a little bit. As long as you keep him warm and feed and clean he should be all right. Good luck!!!


Yea, I actually started thickening the food today. Maybe 1 part formula, 1.5 part water. I have no way to measure because my dad doesn't like me incorporating utensils we use with feeding the chick, so I just guesstimate. No heater or anything either, but I try my best to keep it warm. So the weird, flimsy looking feet are normal right? I always seem to worry for nothing.


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## Cheryl (Dec 27, 2008)

Can it keep its toes straight at all? I have chicks who are about the same age and they keep their toes straight. Even my one week old has straight toes. I'm pretty sure it isn't normal if its *constant*, but if they are straight at times I wouldn't worry. 
I'm not 100% positive on this, but it might be caused by being unable to grip. Do you have bedding or a towel down where he is kept?
I don't know if this can be corrected, but I know that birds with toes like that can adapt just fine as adults.


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

The consistency for food at that age should be like thickened cream. 

What are you using as bedding? (in brooder) it should be fairly thick to prevent splayed legs, not sure about that though.. never seen feet like it and I have 3 babies that I am hand-feeding at the moment that I hand-fed from 2 weeks old, none of their feet looked like that.

Here is a photo of 2 of the babies and you can see the front babies feet and the baby behind you can only see one foot:


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

Cheryl said:


> Can it keep its toes straight at all? I have chicks who are about the same age and they keep their toes straight. Even my one week old has straight toes. I'm pretty sure it isn't normal if its *constant*, but if they are straight at times I wouldn't worry.
> I'm not 100% positive on this, but it might be caused by being unable to grip. Do you have bedding or a towel down where he is kept?
> I don't know if this can be corrected, but I know that birds with toes like that can adapt just fine as adults.


When I lift it and put it back down, maybe 1/8 times it'd have STRAIGHTER toes. The other 7/8 times, the toes would look like that. I made a little ring with some thick masking tape and I layered it with some paper towels. I want to prevent it from moving too much right now because when it walks, it stumbles and hit's it's beak. I'll post a picture of what his bed looks like. Excuse the poop, I change the paper towel once after every feeding. Feeding time is coming in a bit so.. But if this is normal, I won't take any drastic actions. I read on a few other places that if this is crooked feet or toes, I could take a piece of cardboard to the bottom of it's foot to hold the shape for a week or two. Kinda like a cast.



> The consistency for food at that age should be like thickened cream.
> 
> What are you using as bedding? (in brooder) it should be fairly thick to prevent splayed legs, not sure about that though.. never seen feet like it and I have 3 babies that I am hand-feeding at the moment that I hand-fed from 2 weeks old, none of their feet looked like that. Oh, and I don't have a brooder, I'm using a shoebox with an 80 watt lightbulb.
> 
> Here is a photo of 2 of the babies and you can see the front babies feet and the baby behind you can only see one foot:


Not exactly sure what thickened cream feels like. I'm mixing it till it kinda feels like yogurt. Would that be too thin or too thick? Hmm.. Well, how does that cardboard idea I stated above sound? Maybe just for a week or two, so it can keep it's feet that way. Oh, and I don't have a brooder. I use a shoebox with an 80 watt light bulb over it. Dad doesn't like to buy stuff for the birds. All that I have is a syringe and hand feeding formula. Everything else has to be things that I find around the house that we don't use, so my options are very limited.


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## Cheryl (Dec 27, 2008)

Ok so I got some pictures of my chicks.
First is the 2 week old one and then I have pictures of the 1 week old. The 1 week old's toes did look a little flimsy, but it was able to straighten them. The 2 week old kept his toes straight at all times. 
Sorry about the crappy phone camera quality. 


From what you are saying its constant, which definitely is not normal. Someone more experienced on this will have to give you steps on what to do to correct it or at least make it somewhat better.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

Cheryl said:


> Ok so I got some pictures of my chicks.
> First is the 2 week old one and then I have pictures of the 1 week old. The 1 week old's toes did look a little flimsy, but it was able to straighten them. The 2 week old kept his toes straight at all times.
> Sorry about the crappy phone camera quality.
> 
> ...


Alright, thanks for the help! Even when I put it in the towels, it would stand with that weird foot position. So I assume that it's just in that position every day for the 22 hours that I'm not feeding it.


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## Renae (Feb 9, 2008)

edmyloo said:


> Not exactly sure what thickened cream feels like. I'm mixing it till it kinda feels like yogurt. Would that be too thin or too thick? Hmm.. Well, how does that cardboard idea I stated above sound? Maybe just for a week or two, so it can keep it's feet that way. Oh, and I don't have a brooder. I use a shoebox with an 80 watt light bulb over it. Dad doesn't like to buy stuff for the birds. All that I have is a syringe and hand feeding formula. Everything else has to be things that I find around the house that we don't use, so my options are very limited.


This is what I mean:









(picture is from here: http://bimbim.in)

When the formula is on a spoon, it should drip off of the tip of the spoon very slowly - too runny it will drip off of the tip of the spoon quickly, and if too thick, it will be all doughy. 

The set-up that you have for the baby is fine, you have a heat source which is most important. 

Hopefully someone else will be able to help you with the babies feet, srtiels who is a member on this forum is very knowledgeable when it comes to Cockatiels, so she may be able to help you.. hopefully she will see your thread here and reply and maybe give you some advice!


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

Solace. said:


> This is what I mean:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alright, thanks for your help too! I guess my formula hasn't been thick enough either. I'll thicken it out like that when I feed it tonight! As for now, I'll just pick up and put it down until it's feet land correctly before I leave it alone. I've read quite a few threads where srtiels was giving her input. She does seem very knowledgeable and hopefully she'll see my thread.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

What mutation are the prents...and are they related?

The toe curl is from malnutrition. Since the chicks are stunted and undersized for their age this could be the cause. Or it could be genetic depending on the background of the parents.

Here is a link that shows chick growth: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html

Also...do you have a scales that weighs in grams to weigh the chick? If so, get the empty weight, and feed 10% of body weight. Overfeeding can result in slow crop, and does NOT help with weight gain. Quite the opposite, because the body uses all it's energy to digest and not for growth.

Also some good pix's of the entire bird frobn and side will help.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yikes...the pix of formula looks gross and TOO THICK, Sorry  I would suggest a thickness similar to Babyfood applesause. Also, you do not want the formula to chill down while feeding. Use a thermometer, a baby thermometer if it is all you have and feed the formula at 104-105 degrees. You can place your mixed formula cup in a warm bowl of water to keep it from cooling down so quickly.

Also, allow the chick to empty after EACH feeding, prior to the next feeding.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm gonna feed right now so I'll get some front side pics before and after feeding. The mom is a lutino with a pale yellowish circle on the cheek, she's mostly white with a bit of pale yellow on her face and some other places. The male has black eyes, orange circle on cheek, yellow face and head, light grey wings, and some yellow on the other parts. They both look perfectly healthy. I DON'T have a scale, but I snuck a thermometer out of the restroom last night, disinfected it with alcohol, and washed it with some water. And even with that chart, my 16 day old chick doesn't look anything like a 16 day old chick, more like a 7-8 day old chick(like that stunted baby comparison). And I don't believe that the parents are related because we didn't get them at the same time.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Did the chicks have white or yellow down when they hatched? From your pix's it looks like they have white down. if so then the parents are split to WF. Even though you got the parents at different times, if there is only a few or one breeder locally they could have come from the same bloodlines. Since both are split WF, there could be a possibility.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

srtiels said:


> Did the chicks have white or yellow down when they hatched? From your pix's it looks like they have white down. if so then the parents are split to WF. Even though you got the parents at different times, if there is only a few or one breeder locally they could have come from the same bloodlines. Since both are split WF, there could be a possibility.


I did take some pictures just now and the crop did not completely empty overnight. I think. The feet are looking a little bit better. So if they are related what are some problems that could happen? The fuzz on the bird looks more like yellow to me. I don't know if it'll turn out white, but the fuzz looks yellow. I'm gonna run down to the grocery store and get some applesauce first, I'll be back to read your reply in a bit. Just getting some applesauce now because my dad's going to work and can drop me off, and if it doesn't need it, I can eat it. 

Waited around two hours for the crop to nearly empty. I fed it a 40% applesauce, 60% formula mixture hoping it'll digest a little faster. Posted below are pictures of it right before I fed it and after eating 6cc.

In order; 7:30AM, 7:30AM, 9:15AM(before feeding), 9:30AM(after feeding)


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

6cc is too much for the birds size....feed it 3cc.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

srtiels said:


> 6cc is too much for the birds size....feed it 3cc.


Alright. I was just trying to follow this.
http://www.cockatiel.org/articles/handfeeding.html

So, 3cc 5 times a day is where it should be at?


I felt the crop just now and it kinda feels like there's some solids in there. I was told to give it a bit of water water and massage the crop so, I did. 

Pics of mom and dad below.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Wow...the parents are nice. The female is a Pastelface lutino split to pied, and the male is a cinnamon pied split to WF. The chick you have been posting is a pied. Once your chicks feather in you can tell sex. If any have the brown like the male they are females. if they have grey on their bodies anywhere they are males.

The chart is just 'generic' and would be applicable to a normal chick, which your is not. I would feed 3cc four times a day. It would be good if you can get a scales, because then as the baby grows you can gradually increase formula. With a scales you would calculate 10% of body weight per feeding. So if a chick weights 40 grams it would be fed 4cc of formula per feeding.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

srtiels said:


> Wow...the parents are nice. The female is a Pastelface lutino split to pied, and the male is a cinnamon pied split to WF. The chick you have been posting is a pied. Once your chicks feather in you can tell sex. If any have the brown like the male they are females. if they have grey on their bodies anywhere they are males.
> 
> The chart is just 'generic' and would be applicable to a normal chick, which your is not. I would feed 3cc four times a day. It would be good if you can get a scales, because then as the baby grows you can gradually increase formula. With a scales you would calculate 10% of body weight per feeding. So if a chick weights 40 grams it would be fed 4cc of formula per feeding.


Do you know how much scales cost and where I can get one? If it would really help, I think I'll try to scrape up some lunch money and grab one.


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## Cheryl (Dec 27, 2008)

You can buy a gram food scale.. "bird scales" are very pricey.. You can get a decent digital scale from kmart or walmart for $30.
Make sure you don't get the ones that just have the arrow that points to a number..I honestly can't think of what they are called..I almost did and it would have been a huge mistake. You want accuracy for these birds and those food scales can't be read with such accuracy. They are more for weighing things that are a few hundred grams (like a portion of steak for weight watcher points).


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## Cheryl (Dec 27, 2008)

Here is the one I have:
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_011W010109650001P?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5

Do not get one like this:
http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_011W847195110001P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

As you can see 100g is a TINY portion of the scale and its hard if not impossible to be very accurate at all.


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## birdlover4life (Mar 6, 2010)

I got a Biggest Loser Food Scale and I forget where I got it but I weigh my bird and guinea pigs with it and it has ounces and grams. It was either $15 or$20.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

Alright, I'll be by Kmart tonight actually while at a relative's house. Just walked to Ralphs, Walgreens, and Rite Aid and back looking for a scale and a thermometer. I found one and came home and realized that the one I had wasn't broken. I just has to shake it after each use...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Must be one of those old mercury thermometers...I remember those. Hopefully your little one gets better!


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

So, I gave it a bit of warm water and massaged the crop AGAIN, but the (what I think is) solidified food is still inside the crop. When I press the food with my fingers, it retains the shape. Like if it were soft clay or dough. I'm kinda scared to feed it because I know I'm not supposed to feed until the crop empties, but I've actually waited for a while now and it's real hungry.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The lump you are feeling is yeast. Mix some warm water 50/50 with vinegar. Carefully feed the chick several frops to 1/2 of this vinegar water. Then massage this water into the crop tp help to break down the lump. You can then feed the baby a partial feeding. When empty if the lump is still there repeat. And in this article is some helpful info: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

srtiels said:


> The lump you are feeling is yeast. Mix some warm water 50/50 with vinegar. Carefully feed the chick several frops to 1/2 of this vinegar water. Then massage this water into the crop tp help to break down the lump. You can then feed the baby a partial feeding. When empty if the lump is still there repeat. And in this article is some helpful info: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html


Alright, did it once this morning just about an hour ago. I saw some yeast floating on top of the diluted vinegar in the crop. I handle the chick under a light, so it gets at least a little bit of heat and I can see inside the crop easier. So, when I massaged it, I basically gently pinched the crop and rubbed the inside of the crop together. Gently. I did this one little section at a time, so I wasn't pushing food up or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to hurt the bird. Should I repeat this a few more times today?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

It sounds like you did great. Yes...you will repeat several times until the lump os gone and the crop skin feels tissue thin when held between your fingertips.

It is good that you mentioned the lump because yeast is the leading killer of babies. And while it had the yeast problem it would have also slowed down it's growth.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

srtiels said:


> It sounds like you did great. Yes...you will repeat several times until the lump os gone and the crop skin feels tissue thin when held between your fingertips.
> 
> It is good that you mentioned the lump because yeast is the leading killer of babies. And while it had the yeast problem it would have also slowed down it's growth.


Alright, so I'm removing the second chick tonight or tomorrow night. It'll be 14 days old tomorrow and it's starting to rain and get real cold, so I don't feel like I should wait longer. I hope less problems come up with this one. This chick is stunted too though. Maybe even worse than the first chick. And I got learn not to make stupid mistakes like overfeeding. The yeast is still in the crop, but it's gotten MUCH smaller since this morning and I can see the pinfeathers(I think that's what they're called). So, I'm happy about that also! 



EDIT: The chick 13 day old I pulled out looks like a 3 day old according to this (http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html). It also has a mysterious green speck on it's face. I think it could have been some food the parents fed it because I've been putting out greens for them. Tried to feed it about 2 hours after I pulled it out, but it wouldn't eat and the crop was empty. I read the chick has to warm up fist, so I'm going to try again in about 4 hours.


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## edmyloo (Nov 18, 2010)

Unfortunately, the second chick removed died today in the afternoon. I took it out at 13 days and it died today at 15 days. From when I removed it to when it died, it's eyes haven't opened, it's feet were as small as a wooden pencil eraser, and it was too weak to even keep it's head lifted. It was always flailed it's head back and forth during feedings and rolled around. It was eating fine for the past 2 days and after I fed it this morning, I noticed the crop wouldn't even budge after a few hours. A few hours later, it perished. :[


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Aww im so sorry


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