# My first clutch with first time parents.



## Riveran

I'm new, so hello everyone. I just wanted to tell you about my situation and get advice on what to do differently. 

First, my female turns 5 years old in may. My make turns 1 year old in april. The male is still very young, just barely sexually mature. I've read that a lot of first time parents don't do well there first few clutches, but I'd like to help them do this as best I can. 

I first noticed an egg in the foodbowl 11/28 at 6:00am. My female in the five years I've had her has never laid an egg before, and I had witnissed to my astonishment mating occuring the week before. So I got a good sized nest box, made a birdbath for the cage and immediately started offering more soft foods. I also added a tray to keep hay on for nest building.

I placed the egg in the nest box and made a makeshift nest within it, unsure of whether my male was mature enough to make one himself. They ignored it completely until I put a piece of millet by the entrance. Today(12/2) around noon, I saw both the make and female enter the nest box. The female hopped back out within seconds, but the male vegan sitting on the egg and trying to coax the female back in. 

It was my understanding that the female would lay at least 2-3 of her eggs before anyone began incubating. And while I expected to have a second egg 11/30 or 12/1 at the lastest here we are at 12/2 still with only 1 egg. I don't believe she's egg bound because her lower region including cloaca all look normal. She's active, eating, and bathing regularly as well. Should I be worried?

I've made sure to provide them with lots of extra cuttlebones, and they've been eating an awesome amount of them. And I've been boning up on hatchling care as well. I only intend to hand feed if a chick is rejected( and I know a place I'd be able to learn) does everything sound okay? Am I just being nervous for no reason? The lack of any other eggs is what's worrying me thd most. The male seems to be taking his job aeriously enough. Not sure about mum yet. But I should be able to candle in a few days if they finally do start sitting right?


----------



## DyArianna

Welcome to the forum! Tons of experts on here so you'll get lots of good advice. Glad to hear you are doing tons of research and have means of learning hand feeding first hand. I do know that it is not uncommon for the first few clutches to be small and trial and error. I would continue to keep a close eye on her to see if she gets egg bum again. It is also possible for the eggs to be laid 3 or 4 days apart. Hopefully she won't lay anymore as one egg is a good clutch for starters!  They will be overwhelmed as it is. 

As far as the nestbox goes.. you will need to put wood shavings in there. A good 2 or 3 inches. They will not *build* their nest totally. It is usual for the male to check out the nest box first and then convince the female that it is alright for her to come in. Continue with giving them a good diet and the cuttle bone. The male will quite often be the one to sit on the eggs during the day.. or most of it at least... and the female at night. Sometimes it is the opposite. Seeings how it appears that your male has just started sitting.. I would give it another good 5 days before candling to see if it is fertile. 

Also, just because you have seen them mating, does not necessarily mean this egg is fertile. She could have just been thrown into egg laying mode. I wish you the best with them and please continue to ask any questions that you may have.


----------



## Riveran

Thank you very much! I'm glad to hear it can be that long between lays safely. And yes my make has only just started sitting within the last two hours. He hasn't left the nest box in some time now, and I'm afraid to peek because every time I do he leaves for a few minutes. 

Wood chips as the substrate? Not cypress or cedar, I forget which one, but one was toxic right? Would Aspen work? I was in a hurry to give them SOMTHING and shredded two pages of newspaper on top of paper towels as the substrate. I'll pick up some wood chips right away, but how should I make the transition now that they're sitting? Just wait till theyre out and about to make the switch?


----------



## xoxsarahxox

Either Aspen shavings or pine shavings, not cedar.


----------



## Riveran

Alright. Status update number 1. 

I just ran to petsmart. Grabbed some pine shavings, and replaced their newspaper bedding with the pine. I also got them new hard food. They were eating seed and various fruits and veggies, now ikkk be giving them zoopreem fruit flavor pellets and various fruits and veggies. I figure they'll still eat their soft food, and the male isn't picky with food. The female should follow suit. They haven't entered their nestbox yet, in hoping they aren't too freaked out about the bedding change. 

Also, I do believe I see sone egg bum going on! I could be wrong, but her poo was almost all liquid smelled awful and I think I see a small bump right above her tail feathers. Mostly hidden by her wings. 

I've been trying to think of other soft foods though. I'm already offering apple, kale, and brocoli, but ice heard rice, whole grain moistened bread, and believe it or not, pizza. Opinion?


----------



## DyArianna

Do NOT stop giving the seeds. Offer the Zupreem besides the seed, but don't expect them to go cold turkey. Besides, they need to have some seed in their diet also.


----------



## Riveran

Done. I have one bowl of zupreem, one bowl of seed. Sorry, I was told by someone seed other than millet. I'll make sure they're eating both before I try to phase out meals entirely cobsistant of seed


----------



## DyArianna

I would suggest you not phase out the seed at all. Seed is good for their diet. You can still feed pellets too.


----------



## Riveran

Okay = p. Thanks for all the help you guys. I feel do relieved know that there's a place I can go to find answers to situation specific questions


----------



## Riveran

Okay, they've become very active with their nestbox since yesterday. One of them is almost always ibside it but never for very long. They've also shown more interest in the egg. It's been moved from where I left it, closer to the entrance and buried in the wood shavings. Also the male starts hissing when I approach the nestbox. He doesn't mind me being in the cage, but he does mind me peeking. ThE mother doesn't seemed bothered by my presance yet. But then again ive had her for some time now.

Day 5 still with no second egg. I'm fairly sure they started incubating the first, but I can't be sure as I've never peeked in on the mother, and only see the male do it in bursts. Here's hoping for once fertile egg I guess. I'm going to watch whst I suspected to be an egg bump. Hopefully it isn't one if it isn't getting laid..


----------



## DyArianna

If she has had what you think is an egg bump for a few days and no other egg is being layed.. she could be egg bound. Can you gently pick her up and massage the area and see if you feel anything? If you feel something there I would STRONGLY insist you call the Vet. I have heard others suggest soaking her in a warm bath to moisten the area in hopes of aiding her in laying but at this rate.. the usual laying sequence is every other day. It is not unheard of to go 2 or three days.. but you are now at the point where she needs to be looked at if you feel a bump there I think.


----------



## Riveran

I massage the bump, but now I'm beginning to think that's just the way her body curves. I've never felt an egg while it was in the body before, but i don't thinkbi felt anything. Her cloaca looks normal as well. I had intially convinced myself it must be an egg bump, from what I read online most clutches were between 2-8. Is it possible she could have only laid a solitary egg? Ir is the likelihood that I just can't recognize an egg in the body?


----------



## DyArianna

If she had an egg there, you would feel it. It is possible she just laid one egg.. and it's also possible it's not fertile. I would wait a couple more days and try to candle it. See if it's fertile. If it is fertile, like I said, being first time parents.. one egg would be a good test so to speak. The only thing I'm not positive about is if she could still be egg bound without the egg being down far enough to feel. Perhaps some experts can shed some light on that.


----------



## Riveran

I really hope she's not eggboubd and that she's okay.. I'm going to do some reading on egg binding symptoms. See if anything is blatently pinting that direction.


----------



## Riveran

He doesn't appear to be showing any signs of egg binding other than not putting any eggs out. Her bottom looks normal, I didn't feel an egg I dint think, and she's eating plenty of cuttlebone and pellet. Moving around and doesn't appear in pain nor any signs of "pushing" and she hadn't lingered on the bottom of the cage. Though her defecated are very large which is a sign of being about to lay, isn't it? They've continued swigging off laying on the egg. Male during the day female at night, and she's been playing with her toys and chirping seemily happily. I'm hoping she's fine. She isn't showing any physical signs of egg binding anyway. I'll try to give her more baths, but I don't want to stress her more than she needs to be either.


----------



## Riveran

7 days since first egg. Female still looks to be in good health. I candled today, since I suspect they started incubation 12/1. It didn't look fertile. Dark spot, with an orange yellow glow, no veins. But I'm going to wait a few more days and candle again because I did it a day prematurely. Also, they began mating again for the first time since the egg was lain. Is it normal and safe for them to be having sex? And should I expect more eggs in a week? It looked pretty successful.


----------



## tielfan

If they're mating again they may be gearing up to lay some more eggs after the vacation following the first one. The first egg might be fertile - if the lighting conditions are less than ideal you might not be able to see veins during candling. But if one end of the egg is dark and opaque, that's a pretty good sign that the embryo is growing. In the early stages this dark zone will be small, but it will gradually fill more and more of the egg until the only spot that isn't dark is the air cell on the big end.

If you need to feel your hen for eggs in the future, you can always feel the male too if you need a comparison. His pelvic bones will be narrower than hers but otherwise he should feel pretty similar to a non-eggnant hen.


----------



## Riveran

Good to know! I've been reluctant to touch them asctheyre incredibly protective, but I don't intend to take the egg away until they give up or it goes bad. Or better yet, it hatches! I'm hoping another clutch is in the making. I've started giving them multivitamins with their nutriberries as well. Ecotrition vita sol I believe. I suppose all that's left to do us wait and see though huh?


----------



## tielfan

Nutriberries are already formulated to be nutritionally complete and if you give multivitamins too they could get a vitamin overdose. Breeding birds do need extra nutrition but there's still such a thing as too much.

Do your birds eat pellets? If they do, then Harrisons High Potency Fine is an excellent breeding food. http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/High-Potency-Formulas/departments/2/ It's extra nutritious for the parents and is also an excellent baby food - the parents eat the pellets then drink water to turn them into soft mush, while nutriberries will stay pretty hard and will be more difficult for the babies to digest. 

Sprouted multi-grain bread is my parent birds' favorite baby food and Harrisons pellets are number 2. Sprouted seeds are also a good breeding food since they're soft, although my birds tend to wait until the babies are maybe 10 days old before they start devouring them: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=9019 The parents get a little bit of scrambled egg every day during the breeding period - they're loaded with nutrition and Shodu loves the taste. I swear she makes babies just so she can get egg every day.

I don't know what you're using to candle the eggs right now but if you want to seriously get into breeding it would be good to buy an egg candler sooner or later. I have this one: http://www.birdsupplynh.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=571 It's great - you bend the thin wire near the tip so it's at a 90 degree angle, and you can candle the eggs right in the nestbox without touching them with your hands at all. The light is very bright and focused and you can see the veins easily even though it's not very dark in the nest. It's also good for illuminating small nooks and crannies in other places, like the inside of your car engine. The disadvantage is that the bulb gets hot pretty quickly so you can't examine the eggs for very long.

There are other candlers on the market and some of them don't heat up. I sort of wish I had this one: http://www.strombergschickens.com/product/cool-light-tester-egg-candler/egg-candlers It doesn't have the tight-space maneuverability of the other one, but it doesn't heat up. I've tried using an ordinary small cheap LED flashlight, but it didn't work well because the beam wasn't focused enough.


----------



## Riveran

Wow I really need to do better. I've been providing them with a bowl of seed and a bow of pellet, that I change every four days. They eat from both. In etween the food dishes I have a tray that I put snacks on. A lttle millet spray, some nutriberries, and whatever vegetables I put in which vary. (for instance today I put some steamed rice broccoli and carrots in a small bowl and set it in the dish with 2 vita sol nutriberries. I also leave a little kale at the base of the bird bath which sits on a plate on the bottom of the floor. 

I'll start making scrambled eggs for them and leave them 2 vitasol nutriberries every week or so so I'm sure I don't overdo it. Should I still leave the kale and millet?

Also I've been candling with a small flashlight. I'll take a look at those candlers!


----------



## Riveran

Sorry, what do you mean by sprouted multigrain bread? How would I go about making/ getting that?


----------



## tielfan

It's OK to keep giving your parent birds nutriberries, just don't add vitamins on top of it. But it's also good to get them used to eating soft foods now, before they have any babies to feed. Soft foods are much easier for the babies to digest which promotes good growth, and the parents will instinctively choose soft foods for the chicks IF they are already familiar with these foods. 

I buy the bread at a whole-foods grocery store - they keep it frozen to preserve freshness. This is the kind I get: http://www.wegmans.com/webapp/wcs/s...toreId=10052&catalogId=10002&productId=362574 Not all stores carry this brand of course but you may find something similar. Apparently Trader Joes has their own brand, although I rarely shop there so I haven't seen it.

Edit to add: do keep giving vegetables to your parent birds - veggies are good for them and the babies. My guys LOVE leafy greens. They get organic baby spring mix from the store when the weather is too bad for home-grown. When the weather is suitable I have a little "cockatiel salad" garden growing in pots on the back porch and pick fresh baby greens for them every morning.


----------



## DyArianna

I get the baby mix too! My birds love that. I tear it up into little bits though. It makes it so much easier for them to get at. My guys also love Alfafa sprouts, fresh snow peas torn up into small pieces and fresh brussel sprouts (I tear the little leaves off and tear them up into smaller pieces for them). They love cooked peas also and corn. I buy 5 grain wheat bread for them, rice cakes, they eat pasta and brown rice and also cous cous. I am lucky mine will eat fruit.. but it isn't fresh fruit.. it's freeze dried. I get the combo pack that has coconut, mango, pineapple and all the goodies in it. I usually feed my greens in the morning and then fruit/grain in the afternoon, unless they are breeding. Then I make sure they have fresh of everything throughout the day along with making sure their seeds and pellets are full. When those babies come.. it's amazing the amount of food mom and dad go through.


----------



## tielfan

My guys like to have their baby greens hanging from the cage bars - I attach them with a small plastic clip (Dollar Tree has suitable clips for 5/$1). Different birds have different ideas about what looks appealing so it pays to try different presentations if your birds don't go for the first one you try.


----------



## DyArianna

Very true Tiel! It was the same for mine.. and for even where their food dishes were placed. I currently have 3 cage setups... with 3 different types of feeders (it just worked out that way.. lol). My Budgie likes his food and water in the food doors at the bottom of the cage. My boys, Gibbs and McGee have to have theirs half way up their cage.. and the Queen and Princess.. Hetty and Nel have their dishes more towards the top. These little creatures are sooo interesting.


----------



## tielfan

BTW here's a convenient way to provide scrambled egg: first you scramble one egg (I nuke mine in the microwave). Let it cool then chop it into bits, put it in a ziploc bag, and stick it in the freezer. Take out small amounts as needed and let them thaw, then give it to the birds.


----------



## Riveran

I got my second egg! Or my first egg of my second clutch. Really not sure yet. I opened up the box and got bit. Came back like fifteen minutes later, and found a still wet and sticky egg! I'm so happy! She's absolutely not egg bound and this one has a higher probability of being fertile as they've had plenty of matings beforehand. I'm making scrambled eggs in the morning and marking down another egg on the breeding chart. I can't express how happy I am she's definitely okay!


----------



## Riveran

Egg number 3 and 4 have arrived! Not sure how many more to expect, but I'm incredibly happy this far. These three new ones look incredibly healthy and strong compared to the first too!


----------



## tielfan

Did she recently start eating some new foods that made her produce better-looking eggs?


----------



## Riveran

I started using the ecotrition vita sol and providing more nutritious soft foods during the 9 days between the first and second egg. By the way, they're loving all the scrambled eggs they're getting haha


----------



## tielfan

The scrambled egg contains everything you need to assemble a complete baby bird from scratch. It's an excellent breeding food.

P.S. Do you know whether the oldest egg is fertile? After a few days of incubation a fertile egg changes color on the outside, from a slightly translucent pinkish color to an opaque white. There should be a noticeable difference from the newer eggs.


----------



## Riveran

The first egg is absolutely infertile. It has a thin yellowish looking shell that began to chip over time. I didn't notice the chips until the candling yesterday, but it still had a yellow orange glow with no veins. The embryo should have appeared by now if it was fertile right?I haven't removed it yet, because I want her to realize it isn't going to hatch first.


----------



## roxy culver

Has it been five days? If its infertile you can remove it (normally I would say leave it to help keep the fertile eggs warm) but if its cracking its best to remove it.


----------



## Riveran

Egg 1) laid-11/28 incubation began 12/1
Egg 2) laid-12/9 
Egg 3) laid-12/12
Egg 4) laid-12/13

I havent been able to get into the nest box today because theyve been guarding their eggs relentlessly haha. If either of them leave the box one always stays inside no matter what, so im not sure if I have egg 5 or not. I cant complain though, im incredubly haopy theyre giving their frst clutch their all. Im planning on candling egg two 12/16. 

I was aldo planning to change the nestbox bedding today, but like i said they wont leabe it unattended @[email protected] any ideas?


----------



## roxy culver

Don't change the bedding!!! They may abandon the eggs if you do. Tiels don't poop in the nest as it would let predators know where the nest was. There is never a need to change a box bedding unless the babies poop way too much in it once they get older. So don't do that. Just leave it be. But yea you can remove the 1st egg if its chipping.


----------



## Riveran

My apologies for the typos. Im using an itouch because my computer type, and i apparently have sausage fingers.


----------



## Riveran

Wow! Im pretty incredibly glad ive found this forum. I would hsve done so many things wrong. Okay, no bedding changes. Ill remember that. Now one thing ive been wondering is what food to provide for the birds and babies once theyve hatched.

Right now the plan is seed, pellets, scrambled eggs, kale, steamed broccoli, sprouts and whole grain bread. Do i offer all of these things all at once? Or do i give them some things one day and switch the next? And when should i be offering meals?


----------



## tielfan

Go ahead and remove the first egg - it's definitely not fertile. Cockatiels aren't good at math and they have enough eggs now that they might not even realize that one is missing. If the egg springs a leak it will be a bacteria hazard.

I offer my parent birds every food available and let them choose what they want. Their preferences in baby food change as the chicks get older and I want them to be able to pick out the food that they think is ideal at that particular moment in time. 

The babies eat frequently and have voracious appetites once they're about a week old so plenty of food should be available all the time. Bread dries out quickly and my parent birds reject dry bread, so small amounts provided several times a day may work better than one large serving to last the whole day. Other foods may need to be renewed periodically during the day too. Every single food doesn't have to be available for every single minute of the day, but you do want to make sure that the parents always have access to at least one of their favorite baby foods.

As for the bedding: you never have to change it at all if you don't want to. Cockatiel parents never clean the nest so it's natural for the babies to grow up in a pile of poop. A dirty nest can offend humans though and it's fine to clean it if you want to. After the babies have started hatching that is, there's no point changing it until someone starts pooping in there. I change the nest litter every two or three days starting when the oldest baby is about a week old - that's when it starts to get nasty in there. I weigh and inspect the babies while I have them out of the nest so I can make sure they're all growing properly. It's best to put the parents in a different cage or block them out of the nest while you're changing the litter, because it upsets them to look inside the nest and not see any babies in there.


----------



## Riveran

Noted. =p still havent caught a peek of the box to look for a new egg yet. Im actually very impressed with how militant they are about sitting. Momma sits all day, daddy sits with her, taking breaks now and again, then daddy goes solo for a few hours in the evening while momma gets some food and water. Then momma takes over again. Literally no point in time where they both leave the nest. And thetes no way in **** im going to try removing them. They could break eggs and getting bot isnt any fun either.


----------



## tielfan

They'll sit tight like this until the first baby is about a week old (assuming that the eggs are fertile). At that point the babies can keep themselves warm and the parents start spending a lot of time out of the nest getting food for the chicks. Until that happens, there will probably be a few rare moments when both parents are out of the box and you can take a quick look.

It's common for the male to sit in the daytime and the hen to sit at night but there are some super-dedicated birds who want to sit all the time. Don't be alarmed if your hen eventually decides that she wants to stay out all day and the cock stays out all night. As long as someone is in there, everything is OK.


----------



## Riveran

Cool. Everything seems to be going prettty well = D


----------



## Riveran

I got to candle the first of the four possibly fertile eggs just now! Keep in mind im still using a crappy flashlight, but im doing what i can for now. Its on day 6 of incubation. It has a yellow glow to it(i did remember to candle from the bottom and put it back exactly as i found it) and while i couldnt spot an embryo i DID see 3 to 4 pink little vains toward the top of the egg. Tgey didnt look dark or red so i dont think its dead in shell. Im not 100% convinced its fertile yet, but hey thats a positive sign right?


----------



## roxy culver

That's a sign of fertility...you won't see an embryo yet. Once it gets bigger you will definitely see it.


----------



## Riveran

Hooray! Ill have to keep an eye on it if they let me = P


----------



## Riveran

Sorry, ive been busy and firgot to update. My female just pushed out egg number 6! the first wasnt fertile, and was removed, so i have 4 definiteky fertile eggs, and one we arent sure about. The first eggs hatch date it between 12/25 and 12/29 so theres pitential ill have q christmas baby!


----------



## tielfan

In general it's OK to leave infertile eggs in the nest unless they are damaged and at risk for springing a leak. The babies will prop themselves on it when they're very young, and you'll have a nice surprise if it turns out that you were mistaken about it being infertile.

Congratulations on the four that are definitely fertile!


----------



## morla

Good luck with your breeding!


----------



## bjknight93

The infertile eggs will also provide extra heat for the hatched babies when the parents leave the nest. And they are sterile so it's not a big risk if it breaks--just a mess to clean up.


----------



## Riveran

My apologies for not updsting more frequently, ive been more than a little busy haha. The first of the five remaining eggs looked great, candled well but didnt hatch. The second egg(which i vould see the heartbeat of while candling) hatched 12/31/11 at 11:53 just before the ball dropped! The third could hatch any day now =D the fourth and fifth both look fertile as well, and the fifth has potentisl to share the same birthday as my nephew who should be born 1/6/12. 

The baby seems incredibly healthy. It has a pibk coloration with bright yellow fuzzies, and while the mother hasnt wanted much to do witj it other than an occasiobal sitting, the father wont leave the little guy alone, and feeds him relentlessy. Im hoping that the fathers interest in the baby will spark more activity from mom. She hasnt neglected it, but dad definitely does the leg work. Im watching very vlosely to make shre hes eating/being fed, and if they stop for some reason i have a container of formula fresh syringes and should be able to successfully hand feed.


----------



## DyArianna

Congratulations!  You'll have to post pics! Lots of baby furballs being born lately.


----------



## tielfan

Congratulations! Sometimes first-time parents know exactly what to do right from the start and sometimes it takes them a while to figure it out. Things should be OK as long as at least one parent is on the ball right from the start, and it's likely that your hen will catch on eventually.


----------



## Riveran

What a twist! I just looked in to check on mt first little guy and i found him huggling the first of his youbfer siblings! Ive got two new years babies! One new years eve, one new years day! I can expect the next baby as soon as tomorrow and as late as the fifth! Wish me luck that they'll feed okay. If i do have to hand feed when exactly should i begin?


----------



## Riveran

Oh, one other thing. I find myself wondering if the birds still need a lid on their nestbox. The parents are very territorial and I find it difficult to get a look at the babies at all much less make sure they look healthy. 

I made my nestbox myself using a shoebox, duct tape, and wire( to keep the nest box suspended in the cage. I also have four perches underneath with a hardback book resting on them so that should 1) the wire break or 2) the duct tape doesnt protect the shoebox from moisture there is no way it could fall. ) the lid is a thin layer of cardbord and duct tape that can support their weight safely should they climb on top of the nest box. 

It would simply be a matter of cutting the lid layer off, allowing easier viewing even while the parents are inside. I've been using a flashlight and looking through the hole till now. The way it's situated they wouldn't have view of anything but the upper bars of their cage, as the nest is about as high as it could possibly be, so I don't think it would stress them out too much. 

I've done nothing yet, but it would help me keep track of them a lot. Please give me your thoughts.


----------



## tielfan

If you see that the parents aren't doing an adequate job of feeding the babies, that's the time to start handfeeding. If the parents are doing a good job but you want to handfeed for socialization, the time to start is when the babies are two to three weeks old. You don't have to completely remove them from the parents at this time if you don't want to. Leaving the babies with the parents most of the time but "borrowing" them once or twice a day for handfeeding and handling is called co-parenting.

If it still looks good that first egg might still be viable. When you get several eggs hatching close together like this it's a good sign that the parents waited a while before they started incubating.


----------



## tielfan

The parents will feel a lot more secure if there's a lid on the nestbox, although cockatiels have been known to successfully raise chicks in an open box. I'd leave the lid on there myself. Trying to look at the eggs and babies is frustrating in the early days, but when the oldest baby is about a week old the parents will start spending most of their time out of the nest and you'll be able to look all you want.


----------



## Riveran

Alright =D heres hoping that first egg still has a shot. I havent removed it because of the warmth factor, so it very well may still be okay. Ill leave their lid on for now. I think theyve already become used to it the way it is. 

Ive read thst thd hatchlings are incredibly sensetive to germs and handling them too early could be detrimental and even life threatening, so i havent handled them at all yet. When would be a safe time to for me to start interacting with the chicks? And when thry hit a week or two of age, will thevparents still be this protective? Also when should i remove the nest box? I want to be sure she isnt going to start another clutch before i take it out.


----------



## tielfan

> Ive read thst thd hatchlings are incredibly sensetive to germs and handling them too early could be detrimental and even life threatening, so i havent handled them at all yet.


They aren't all that sensitive, and if you wash your hands before handling them you aren't likely to have any problems. The parents are eating food that you touched and regurgitating it to the babies so they've already had some exposure to you. What I worry about more is the tiny size and fragility of the babies. Our hands are huge in comparison and delicate handling is required. But the tiniest babies can be handled safely if you're careful. 



> And when thry hit a week or two of age, will thevparents still be this protective?


The parents will always be annoyed if you look in the box while they're inside. But they don't care much if you look in the box while they're not inside. If you actually start taking babies out of the box they're likely to investigate, so it's best to put the parents in a different cage first if you want to take the chicks out.



> Also when should i remove the nest box? I want to be sure she isnt going to start another clutch before i take it out.


If you're going to pull the chicks for handfeeding then you can remove the nestbox at the same time. But the timing gets tricky if you want to leave the babies with the parents, because the parents start wanting a new clutch when the oldest baby is about three weeks old and are likely to start laying eggs before all the babies have fledged. You can use hormone reduction techniques but you don't want to do it to the point that they stop feeding the current babies. This isn't very effective and so far I have never succeeded in preventing a second clutch because the parents are still too motivated at that point. But they're a lot more half-hearted when it's time for a third clutch so I haven't had any problem talking them out of it.


----------



## Riveran

Wonderful. =D not sure if I have baby 3 yet or not, but I have officially seen the mother feed, and I have seen both babies eat from both parents. It was funny, the father left the box when night came and the mother went in for her shift and she called to him over and over again until he came back in with her. Maybe she's a little insecure with the babies? He's doing a bang up job for only being 8 months old though. I'm impressed with him.


----------



## roxy culver

Males are more maternal than females. Once the babies fledge he'll do most of the work and she wont.


----------



## Riveran

Huh go figure XD. They both left the nest for the first time since the first one hatched, and I managed to hold little 3 day old vivi, and the 2 day old little guy who is without name yet as he's probably going to be given to my grandmother after being weaned. They're so incredibly cute, and the parents were well behaved while I handled them. I tried to hide that I was doing it, but they heard the peeps and while they watched carefully, they didn't interfere or get irritated with me. I can't wait for the last two(maybe 3) to hatch = P


----------



## roxy culver

Haha that's wonderful. Mine will actually try to feed them in my hand, its so weird lol.


----------



## Riveran

Well turns out it was more thwn just a maybe. The first egg should have hatched betweeb 12/26-12/29, but it wound up hatching on 1/3 at the exact same time as the fourth egg started hatching! So i got two babies in under ab hour today after work. Vivi, is larger than the other three by a wide margin, the srcobd following suit, and the two new guys seem incomprehensivly little in comparison. But they all hace full little crops and apowar healthy. Only one egg to go. 

Also i had one other question. The mother is a cinnamon, the father is normal, and i believe he gad a cinnamon mother if memory serves, but i could be wrong. When vivi hatched he came out with bright yellow feathers. The other 3 hatchlings have all hatched with bright white feathers. Im not sure if that makes any sort of difference, as i know the ibirial feathers fall off to be replaced by real feathers. But i am a little worried it indicates a defficiency of some sort or another. Is it nirnal to expect different colors on them?


----------



## xoxsarahxox

The white down means that the babies are whiteface babies, the yellow down means that it is a normal ( non whiteface) baby. Congrats on the babies!


----------



## jellybean

How cute, white faced babies congrats!!


----------



## Riveran

Holy crap, I got white faced babies!? Wouldnt that mean that I just happened to buy two birds who just happened to both have recessive white faced traits, and I just to happened to have the good odds of getting 3(maybe 4) of them? Wow that's pretty nuts. I was just hoping for a cinnamon at best, and I've always wanted a whitefaced cockatiel = D I can't believe it's just falling in my Lap. And white fuzzies DEFINITELY mean white faced? It would make sense if it pulls the yellow out that it would be prominent early on.


----------



## tielfan

> Wouldnt that mean that I just happened to buy two birds who just happened to both have recessive white faced traits,


Yes that's exactly what it means. The whiteface gene is pretty widespread so this isn't usual.



> And white fuzzies DEFINITELY mean white faced?


Yes, definitely. All other colors hatch out with yellow fuzz.

If your male had a cinnamon mother then he is definitely split cinnamon, and any or all of these babies could turn out to be cinnamon.

There are other things that could happen but you'll have to wait for the babies to feather out to know it. If both parents are split pied you could get pied babies. Mom can't be split to pearl or lutino but Dad could be, and if he is then you could get girl babies in those colors. Lutino babies are identifiable at birth since the eye color matches the skin color and it almost looks like they don't have eyes - very different than the huge dark orbs of babies with normal-colored eyes.

Cinnamon babies are sometimes identifiable at birth by eye color - they have purplish plum-colored eyes which can range in shade from lutino red (which fades to a darker color in a couple of days) to looking exactly like normal dark eyes. I have a significant percentage of cinnamon babies in my flock and have never been able to see a difference in their eye color at birth.


----------



## Riveran

Wow. Cockatiel mutations are so different fron the way my snakes work XD 

Im still waiting on that fifth egg, bit upon a better inspection of thd chicks, it appears tgat 2 are whitefaced. Not 3. Im still fine with that though. This is such a nice suprise haha.


----------



## srtiels

*Yes, definitely. All other colors hatch out with yellow fuzz.*
---------------------------------

A split to WF will have a pale yellow fuzz/down, and a Pastelface (PF) baby will have an almost white down. Compared with a WF babies down the PF down will look like a dirty whiteish pale yellow.


----------



## tielfan

> it appears tgat 2 are whitefaced. Not 3.


You're still beating the odds. For two parents who are just split, the expected number of whiteface babies is 1 out of 4. In the short run you can get percentages that are wildly different than the expected number, but as your birds have more and more babies the total number of whiteface babies should come closer and closer to 25%.


----------



## Riveran

Aah. Gitcha gotcha. Im actively waiting for tge parents to go reload in soft foods so i xan snesk a peek at the babies and see of the last one has hatched yet. I feel like my first clutch is going so smoothly! Its a decent amount of work and anticipation, but they arent riddled with health problens and earing issues, and tge parents are doijg well for their first time. Only one egg has failed to hatch and it was her first egg ever. Im incredibly happpy with how things are going thus far.


----------



## Riveran

Well, once again im beginning to think the last egg wont hatch. The parents are mote concerned with feeding the 4 babies they already have and have pushed the egg away from the hatchlings. Not quite sure if theyve given up yet. The mother and the father are now parenting equally, and the hatchlings all appear to be healthy( the oldest is 10 days old, beginning to fledge and just opened his eyes this morning!) all babies have fulll crops every day and make peeping noises as theyre being fed. 

But their other noise confuses me a little. They all start screeching apparently for no reason. It only seems to happen when the parents are out of the nest box. Sometimes triggered by my flashlight when i take a quick peek, and sometimes by a loud noise in the room or from the tv. Sometimes nothing triggeres it at all. Is this normal? Also despite daily handling, the babies slways seem to hiss at me and my fiance when we bring them out. Theyre only 10- dauys old so they might just need more time to get used to us, but should i handle tgem more frequently? The parents dont seen to give a hoot if we touch the babies now haha. They dont show the slightest interest when i go into the box. But my brother in law tried to pick up a baby and the daddy lost his mind and attacked him. I figure tgeyre used to me invading their privacy, but because he doesnt see thrm much thry thought he was a predator?


----------



## bjknight93

I would think that noise, kind of like a static sounds, is the babies begging for food. And you can handle them as much as the parents will let you to get them socialized.


----------



## jellybean

What does that mean "fledge" getting ready to fly?
I have a new year baby and she is not nearly ready to fly, is she slow


----------



## Riveran

I slways assumed fledging was the process of growing their feathers. I could be wrobg though. Ice never looked up the definition or anything XD abd yeah flying after ten days wiuld be insane. I just had all four babies out of the nest box with me on my bed. I even decided ti take the parents out so they could observe me interacting withvthe bavies rather than just seeing me steal obe away then put it back later. The babies got tired( they ate not long before i took them out, and every one of tgem fell asleep on my chest, but the parents are stilk outside of the cage. Enjiyibg some tike off i guess haha. This is the first break theyve had in a bit. Parenting is a full time job after all.


----------



## DyArianna

10 days is too young to fledge.. I think they mean the baby is getting more curious and exploring around.  As far as their noise goes, yes, they are calling for mom and dad. It's cute at first.. lol And then as they get bigger... Whoooaa!  They will eventually stop the hissing. Keep handling them as you are doing. Sounds like everyone is doing an awesome job. Congrats and I too am jealous on the white face babies!


----------



## Riveran

Again sorry for all the typos. I cant wait to get my computer fixed. Tgen i can type correctly and shower this thread with baby photos. Should happen toward the end of january = P

edit: yep, i was wrong about tge term fledging. My mistake. Theyre starting to grow feathers***


----------



## jellybean

Can you post pics of your babies? I would love to see them and compare to mine that are the same age. My 2 older ones are getting their little feathers too


----------



## Riveran

I dont think i can post links or imbed them using my phone, but i have been able to upload some to facebook, you guys are more than welcome to take a look at what i have there! Im going to look for a link, but typing in tim frost should bring me up. My profile pic is animated comic style at the moment, so that should be a good indicator its me.


----------



## Riveran

http://m1148.photobucket.com/albumv...YMHtp30dJGtZ98PCnSIuaXmj89tH881IT4PQPkmsLBW0=

i got somr pictures onto photobucket. Try the link.


----------



## tielfan

Fledging is usually used to mean the moment when they fly out of the nest, but technically it can also mean growing feathers. 

Once the babies open their eyes they are very aware of anyone who isn't their mom or dad, and will hiss and squall at them. Here are three of my babies telling me to get lost: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcMKZtr4NeM They'll get used to you eventually.

They also have a weird sound that they make when there's a noise in the area that they're not too sure about. It's a low-pitched exhaling sound, as if the nest is full of baby dragons instead of cockatiels.


----------



## Riveran

Aww.. And im making a habit of removibg all 4 babies from the nest every day when i get home from work, and interact with them alk both as a group and individually. The parents are right there with them and still dont seem to mind the interaction. Haha they almost seem relieved to have some time to themselves. Vivi, the oldest is already getting less scared of me = P. Granted all the little buggers want to do is sleep, in the nest box or not hahaha. By te way, does anyone else find it comical that their feet are practically full size and their bodies just cant keep up yet? Its so funny watching them bumble around.


----------



## Riveran

Ok, brand new question. My nestbox is suspended about two feet high from the cage bottom. When the little guys start trying to explore outside tge nest box will they be okay? They wont fall from the nest will they? Directly outside the hole the is two perches on tge same level a few inches away from each other and four or five inches below is tge foodbowls. In order to get anywhere they woukd have to be able to climb bars. Im just really worried they'll get hurt. Should i move the nest to the cagebottom? Will tgat disturb the parents or make them leave abandon the nest?


----------



## Riveran

Well it looks like I asked just a little too late.. Vivi, the oldest found his way to the nest hole, and fell the 2 feet to the barred cage bottom. He's whimpering and shaking and appears to be unable to hold his head up. I moved the nest box to the floor of the cage, I just don't know what to do for vociferous now. He's calmed down a lot and we're watching him to see if he's okay, he's no longer whimpering but hasn't opened his eyes yet. Please any help you could give would be appreciated. I'm incredibly upset and don't know what to do.


----------



## DyArianna

Sorry for the late post.. although I won't be of too much help. I've always had my nest box low to the bottom. And I've always pulled my babies at 3 weeks.. so I have no experience with them fledging on their own. How is the baby doing now?


----------



## Riveran

His crop is empty, as it has been since yesterday.. He can hold up his neck by himself again, but hasn't really opened his eyes yet. I'm worried that the parents may have pushed him out of the nest. They were both inside when it was discovered he was on the bottom of the cage. I'm hoping he's okay, but even more than that I'm wondering if I should put him back. I have another cage, and I have kaytee hand feeding exact formula, just invade I have to handfeed, but I don't know how to tell if he's been rejected. He's two weeks old today. Wouldn't they have abandoned him sooner if they were going to?


----------



## DyArianna

You've moved the nest box down.. he's only 2 weeks old? Wow.. such a little one yet. My nest box .. the hole is rather far up on it. Is yours? If his crop is empty he needs to be fed. Do you know how to hand feed? You haven't put him back with mom and dad since yesterday at all? This little one is probably so hungry at this point.


----------



## tielfan

I would put the baby back in the nest and then watch closely to see what the parents do. If they feed him then maybe he fell out accidentally somehow, although that would be unusual at this age. If they don't take care of him then you'll need to pull him and handfeed. It also seems like it would be difficult for the parents to toss the baby out of the nest at this age since he should be getting pretty big at this point.

This is assuming that he isn't injured. If he is injured then he needs to see a vet.

Two weeks old is much too young to fledge. I've heard of precocious babies that fledged at three weeks, but most do it at 4 to 5 weeks.

Do you have a typical nestbox where the entry hole is maybe three inches higher than the top of the bedding, or do you have some other kind of arrangement? With a typical nestbox, the babies will start to spend a lot of time peering out through the door a few days before they fledge. Then they will start sitting in the doorway, sometimes making it difficult for mom and dad to get in and out. It's very helpful to have a perch just outside the door for the babies to sit on. Sooner or later they'll lose their balance and fall, and will instinctively flap their wings so they don't go splat on the floor. And voila, your baby just fledged. It's OK to have the nestbox up high because the wing-flapping softens the landing so the baby doesn't get hurt.

They tend to spend a lot of time down on the cage floor for the first day or two, and if there's a grate down there you'll need to either take it out or spread newspaper on top of it so the baby can move around comfortably. My parent birds can't quite figure out how to take care of a floor chick, so I'll put the baby back in the nest periodically so they can feed it. I also put it in the nest at night so it can sleep comfortably. Before long the baby will figure out how to go back in the nest by itself when it wants to. I try to strike a balance between giving the baby time to explore the world and learn skills, and giving it the comfort of nestbox time.


----------



## Riveran

He was with his parents until about 9:00pm eastern tonight. But I don't think they fed him since yesterday. My fiancé did a physical examination, and coddled him for a while, until he opened his eyes and held up his head, and he kept on trying to get food from our fingertips so we hand fed him. His body was still shaking even after the feeding but he has a full crop, and was placed back with his brothers and sisters. I'll be watching them very closely tonight. The parents have not been back in the nest box since I moved it to the bottom, I'm hoping they'll find their way back inside. 

I have to admit, after the first egg was laid I made a makeshift nestbox with a cardboard box, duct tape, and wire and once they laid the others I didn't want to switch because I was scared they would abandon the nest, so I never changed it. The hole is maybe half an inch from the top of the bedding. I apparently didn't think it through enough remotely..


----------



## Riveran

I heard the parents feed one of the chicks not long ago, but when I checked the chicks 2 had empty crops and the third only had a little in it. If they haven't been fed by morning should I pull them, and hand feed? I'm hoping It doesnt come to that though..


----------



## tielfan

The hole definitely needs to be higher up. You want the babies to have to scramble a bit to get out so they won't be skilled enough to go through the door until they're old enough to fledge. If your parent birds were keeping the babies well fed I would say to just replace the current nest with a better one. But the parents don't seem to be as well motivated as they should be, so I don't know whether changing the nest would throw them off further or not. Can you relocate the door on the current nest?

You can co-parent/assist feed the chicks if you want to - that means taking them out of the nest periodically to handfeed and then putting them back in the nest. If possible, put your parent birds in a different cage while this is going on so they won't be upset by the sight of an empty nest. This is their first clutch, so maybe they haven't quite figured out that they have to work harder as the babies get older. But with any luck they'll learn it soon.

You can also pull the babies completely if you want to, but then they'll be your responsibility 24/7. You might also inadvertently teach your adult birds that the babies are supposed to disappear from the nest after two weeks. Breeders who usually pull the babies for handfeeding at a certain age can run into problems if they decide to leave a clutch with the parents longer, because the parents have never learned how to raise the babies to weaning age.

If the parents aren't keeping the babies full then you'll definitely have to do some handfeeding, and whether you assist feed or pull is your choice.

When the babies are almost fully feathered it's normal for them to start eating less, since they'll be fledging soon and can't fly with a huge heavy crop weighing them down. But your babies should be in the pinfeather stage now so they should still have crops that are bigger than their heads.


----------



## Riveran

They are definitely pinfeather stage and do indeed have large crops. Unfortunately changing the hole isnt an option unless i 1) remake thr entire thing or 2) buy a legitimite nestbox. 

i dont think coparenting is a bad idea. I already comd home on my breaks to replenish their sift foods every day, so i can feed them at 5:30am, 10:30am, 3:30pm, 8:30pm, and theoreticky they could make it through the night right? Granred, i would only be feeding tgem if they are not being fed, it would be more as needed than anything. But my fiance and i both work 40 hours a week. Parenting tgem ourselves would be difficult. Coparenting seems more feasible. 

I hope tge littlr guys okay.. Ive heard him making a soft peep every few seconds since after we fed him. Im sure it stilk hurts, i just hope its nothing serious. Theyve never been this vocal at niggt before.


----------



## tielfan

You're likely to have more accidents with the current nestbox. You'll have to make your own decision on what's best, but if these were my birds I'd buy a conventional nestbox and install it in the same location as the current nestbox with the babies inside, then hope that the parents take to it right away. Dark hidey-holes are naturally attractive to cockatiels and they're already in breeding mode, so maybe they'll go for it. Failing that, I'd put the current nestbox all the way down on the floor with something soft underneath (like a folded towel) so that if a baby falls out it will be less likely to get hurt.

It would really be best to have a vet see the baby that fell out of the nest if you think he might be hurt.

P.S.: there are two basic types of commercial nestboxes: one that's designed to hang on the outside of the cage and has the attachment holes on the front side of the box, and the kind that's designed to hang inside the cage and has attachment holes on the back side of the box. The "outside" kind is usually more convenient if your cage can accommodate it - it's much easier for you to look inside the box, and it doesn't take up space in the cage interior. A cockatiel-sized nestbox measures about a foot on each side.


----------



## Riveran

Things went incredibly smoothly up until little vivi fell out of the nest. I decided to buy a new nestbox, but my petsmart was sold out, supposedly getting more in on tuesday. So i placed the nestbox on the ground, and put a towel down underneath. I saw the parents go into the nestbox once each, and i assumed that because they had entered they had not given up on the nest. Both parents were acting completely normal and all babies appeared healthy, even the one who had fallen from the nest. 

I woke up this morning to a few sounds that didnt sound farmiliar. The mother was laying on the towel in front of the nest box on the bottom of the cage, and i knew something was wrong immediately. I was with her for her last few moments, and proceded to bury her. I lost another cockatiel a few months back. It was theorized that she had a severely shortned lifespan due to an all seed diet the previous 4 years. Im assuming that the same could be said for the mother, who lived in the same conditions for the same amount of time. 

When i got back i checked in the babies, and judging by the empty crops and icy body temperatures, they hadnt been fed or warmed all night. ( it was incredibly cold last night as well which may have exascerbated the situation). I immediately put them under a heat lamp and attempted a hand feeding. The two youngest ones passed away almost immediately. With a little time, foio, and heat, the older two recovered completely. 

The father is only 9 months old, and had paid them no attention the night before so i set up a glass aquarium with 3 inches of bedding, and put a cermaic heat lamp above them bringing their warmest spot to 92.5 degrees, verified by a temp gun. The two remaining babies are eating and sleeping as they should be. 

The father did not see the mother or chicks die, so i put him into a different cage on a different wall with different toys, and he has been acting like himself. Eating, drinking, playing and singing. So i dont think hes aware of whats happened yet.

I will continue to hand rear the babies, but im incredibly devestated by the entire situation. I have my fiance and his parents to help me with feedings when scheduling gets tight. But right now im not quite sure what else to do. Everything went downhill so quickly. I knew the mother very well, and by the time she showed signs anything was wrong she passed within minutes. Im watching the father and the babies just in caee and have a vet to go to if i notice anything strange.


----------



## tielfan

I'm very sorry to hear all this. The father is really too young to be breeding - males are considered to be fully mature at 12 months (females at 18 months) and are likely to have better-developed breeding instincts at that time. Males can "do the deed" earlier than this but may not be fully effective at rearing the chicks. His immaturity and the mother's health possibly failing fast over the last few days may be the reason that the babies weren't getting fed properly. 

If the mother was already compromised beforehand then the stress of breeding probably contributed to her death. If she was on a well-balanced diet for at least six months before breeding, that would have helped maximize her ability to breed successfully.

Did you keep all the babies under the heat lamp for the same amount of time? Sometimes a baby that is chilled may look dead but still be alive, so it's always worthwhile to try and heat them up fully.

Was the baby that fell out of the nest one of the survivors or one that was lost? If it's still alive, does it seem to be recovered from the fall now?

Again, I'm sorry that this happened. Breeding is high-risk business and things can go wrong suddenly.


----------



## jellybean

Im so sorry for your loss, how devastating. Unfortunately breeding is not as easy as it sounds, anything can go wrong at any given moment. Im so new at all this and learning. We both had a clutch at the same time. Its become a full time job for me, watching the babies,checking, weighing and researching constantly and they are still in the nest! Good luck with the hand feeding and im so glad you were able to save two. Keep us posted.


----------



## Riveran

Yes, i didnt thibk tgey were going to attempt ti breed until tge msle had matured. I was wrong though. And the mother switched to pellet only after the first egg was laid 11/28. I had worroed about her, but i guess i thought if something was going to happen it would have during the pregnancy.

The one who fell from the nest is one of tge survivers snd appears to have made a full recovery. I had to run out to get the heat lamp so chances are that when i got it back and warmed up it was too late.. 

Im frankly just glad to have the babies and father still at this point. Theyre eating often and are very active and alert. Even daddy. 

Should i move tge father back to his okd cage? Or will he be upset when he realizes tge mother and chicks arent inside. Hes been in a seperate cage sinxe she died.


----------



## tielfan

Does the father seem happy where he is? If so then you may as well leave him there. If he's anxious to get back to the breeding cage you can put him there. Sooner or later he's going to realize that everything is different and there'll be some grief, but there's no way to avoid that.

You can give him access to the surviving babies and see whether he feeds them. It kind of sounds like he's gone off duty at this point, but if he's still interested in caring for the babies it will help him cope with the loss of the hen. I would NOT rely on him to keep them well-fed or warm.

Keep an eye on everyone for signs of illness. The babies in particular have had the physical shock of getting chilled plus a sudden change in their food supply and caretaker. But it sounds like everything is OK at the moment so let's hope it stays that way!


----------



## Riveran

Yes. They're eating regularly, and the father doesn't seem happy, but he doesn't seem upset either. He frankly just looks annoyed with the smallness of his new cage in comparison XD. I did try to put him back with the babies, and he literally walked over them. Used them as a stair case then kept on walking, so I removed him pretty immediately after so he wouldn't hurt the babies, even by accident. I'm handling him mire to to try and keep him busier with me than he used to be. Hopefully it's smooth sailing from here on. 


Now for the hand rearing questions. 

1) I've got the method down, but even with perfectly rounded crops, they never stop calling for food. Is that normal?

2) they get very chilly when we take them upstairs to feed. Is it a better idea to keep them under the heat lamp in the enclosure?

3) they both stumble around quite a bit, but vivi has a tendency of flipping himself on his back and getting stuck,he's the one who fell. Think it's related? He acts perfectly fine and has full mobility of all body parts. He just seems rather clumsy. 

4) I'll try to start weaning at 8 weeks, but how do I go about it?

5)feeding times are as follows
2:30am
5:00am
7:00am
10:30am
12:30pm
2:30pm
4:30pm
6:30pm
8:30pm
10:30pm
12:30am
Rinse and repeat. They are 17 and 16 days old. Is that spacing okay, and when should I start spacing meals out more?

6) right now they are under their heat lamp in an aquarium with the warmest part at 89-92 degrees. How long should I keep it there, when should I move it down? Etc


----------



## jellybean

You are feeding them 11 times a day? From what ive read you should be feeding them 4 times a day and they can go overnight. When they get to 21 days or so you can reduce to 3 times a day. Feed should be 10 percent of their body weight. I think thats right but wait for someone with more experienced to confirm


----------



## tielfan

1. It's normal for the baby to not realize it's full at first. The body gets the signal when the nutrients start hitting the bloodstream, which takes a few minutes. 

2. They'll digest better if they're warm. There are various ways to achieve this, for example putting a heating pad under the babies with a towel between the babies and the pad, or moving the heat lamp to the feeding area. Feeding them in the enclosure sounds awkward which would be a good reason not to do it there, but if it's actually quite easy you can do it there. You want to be able to move easily to reduce the risk of accidental aspiration. There's information about dealing with aspiration at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=19342

3. Babies are awkward at this age. Vivi might have tumbled out completely by accident, or if he was hungry he might have tried to go after his parents for food.

4. Weaning actually begins as soon as the babies fledge, and the baby leads the process not you. The only food available in the nest is mom and dad's home cooking but once the babies leave the nest (usually age 4-5 weeks) they start experimenting with food and gradually acquire eating skills. Most babies wean at 8-10 weeks.

5. This is too many feedings for their age. There's a recommended feeding table at http://www.cockatiel.org/articles/handfeeding.html (also a chart of recommended brooder temperatures which answers question 6). But the most experienced breeder on the forum (srtiels) prefers a different approach - getting the baby's weight with an empty crop each day and then feeding 10% of body weight at each feeding. See her thread at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=18189 for full information on her recommendations. Post #3 has information on the schedule for 3 1/2 to 4 week old babies. I'm not sure what schedule she recommends for younger chicks but the recommendation at the first link of four feedings per day seems reasonable. It's a good idea to read all her posts on this thread, there's a lot of valuable information there.

srtiels recommends letting the crop empty between feedings for reasons explained at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=25383#3 

Be on the alert for digestion/crop issues. srtiels has some excellent articles on her website at http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/index.html

I have always co-parented my babies and never had one on handfeeding alone, so I'm not an expert on this area.


----------



## Riveran

Okay, thanks. Ill read up.


----------



## Riveran

I found a lot of great information! Thinks for the links. Youre right i was feeding far too often. The little guys are just so darn convincing XD whenever i handle them, full crop or not they stretch their little bodies so high, and spread ther wings trying to get food from my fingers. On occasasion theyve tried to get it from each other, going beak to beak and making tge peeping sound they make while feeding. Its all i can do not to cave XD


----------



## DyArianna

They really do tug at your heart strings. Little buggers. lol But you have to stand firm.


----------



## tielfan

srtiels just posted an instructional handfeeding picture album at http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/...more/Other birds/Hand Feeding tools and info/ There's a lot of good info there too!


----------



## Riveran

I think ive got habdfeedibg down for the most part, but now vivi( born 12/31 at 11:53) is concerning me for other reasons. His little brother yuan(born 1/1 at 9:06pm) is pretty noticably larger than he is. He is acting normal as far as mannerisms and behavior go, and is a voracious little eater, but lets say theres 5 hiurs between meals. Yuan might have an extremeky small amount of food, if anything at all in his crop, and vivi will have a crop 2/3rds full. Ive skipped a meal or two if hia to try to catch up and digest, but it doesnt really change much. Im worried about sour crop, but im not sure how to treat it or be sure that it is to begin with


----------



## roxy culver

http://www.talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=26976&highlight=sour+crop

Srtiels posted some helpful info about sour crop in this thread, so have a read and I hope it helps!


----------



## srtiels

Posting good clear pix's of your babies would be helpful. Also if you have a scales that weighs in grams (such a s a kitchen or postage scales) it would be helpful to know their weight when they are empty (prior to the next feeding)


----------



## Riveran

Without a computer i cant link grab the uerl's from anything except mabye photobucket, and the best camera i can use would be the on my phone, as i dont have a computer to connect my camera to. Ill try and get a sufficient picture if i can. Im sorry, i know it must be frustrating going on my descriptions alone. I do have a gram scale that i use for my ball pythons, but its battery is dead and they were out last time i went to the store. Ill run to cvs tonight and see if they havent gotten them in yet.

Though i do have good news to report! Thry both ate this morning at 7:00 am( vivi only had about .4ml because his crop was still very full. I check in on them at 12pm to see if their crops had emptied, so i could judge whether or not to feed them, and both vivi and yuan has very small amounts in their crops. I decided to wait an hour or two to see if they would empty out. It is now approximately 12:40 and its still getting smaller, so tgere may not be as much cause for concern as i feared = P

but ill see if i cant get weights tonight. Ive been meaning to for days now.


----------



## srtiels

OK....if you can take pix's with your phone....then you can send them to an email to yourself. Save them on your computer, and you can upload (use Go Advanced, then click on manage attachments) them to the forum.

It sounds like you are having a problem with the crop slowing down on emptying. Do you have any experienced breeders in your area that are familiar with slow crop and can look at the babies to show you what you may need to do?


----------



## Riveran

Well the whole problem lies in that i dont have a working computer right now. The only way i can upload pictures is directly from my phone to either facebook or photobucket, and because im uding a phone im bound by the restrictions of mobile apps which dont have nearky as many options as an actual computer or web browser. 

I know someone at work who used to hand feed larger birds like african grey's and mcaws a few years back( i work at petsmart) so tgey were abke yo teach me tge basics of hand rearing but they dont know any more than i do about slow/sour crops. The most information on what thry are and what to to about them is what i read in the thread dyariania began in which you had a few posts explaining things. 

Thry may not be the best pictures in the world but at this pint somethings better than nothing. Ill take some pics with my phone, link them to photobucket and try to link my album to my next post. You may have to look through a few pictures of the babies earky on but ill write a description so you know which one to look at. Thanks for alk the patience and help you guys. Without all of you and this forum i may well have lost all the babies when things hit tge fan, and this has been my go to rescource in trying to make sure theyre okay and know what to do. Thank you so much.


----------



## srtiels

If you have pix's I can make a copy and then I can add type right on the pix's to show you a potential problem.....like the pix attached below (click for a larger view)


----------

