# Buddy's AGY Progress



## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, so recently I posted something about my male cockatiel losing weight. I will take him to the vet this week. Now, I noticed that there are bits of seeds and whole millet seeds in his droppings. They are also a very light green color, shiny, kinda loose, and today I noticed 1 very small bubble on his droppings (I've been inspecting them very closely). He is also a bit lethargic and gets bored very easily. But when I put him on the floor to play, he acts normal and plays around happily. I am already taking him to the vet, but I was wondering if these symptoms sound familiar to anyone, just so I'm prepared for what's coming. I'm worried about him and I don't want him to die 
I will post pictures of his droppings, I'm just waiting for new ones. Thanks.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Try giving him some yogurt, it has good bacteria in it and should help balance out the bacteria in his gut (an overflow of good bacteria in the intestines is what usually causes seed in the poop.)


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

really? I heard that seeds in poop means a digestive problem and that it can be very serious. Can I give him any kind of yogurt, like strawberry/blueberry yogurt?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, so here are the pictures. They are a bit shaky, but I hope you can see the whole millet seed in the poop. I also posted some pictures of Buddy (male, gray) and Cookie (female, pearl), just so you guys can see their overall appearance. I think Cookie looks healthier than Buddy (he looks kinda rough to me). Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!
http://s1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/Carla819/


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## Philiko (May 16, 2012)

Poor Buddy! What ever's wrong with him, I hope he's better soon!!


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Yoghurt does not help birds, the healthy yeast in it is for mammals, not birds. The probiotics for birds are produced specially for them. Benebac is one of them. I know Vetafarm has their product as well.

You should not waste time, take your birds to the vet as soon as possible. Digestive problems like that are not good. It might mean your bird is starving, not digesting and absorbing its food.

I hope you find out what is wrong very soon and start treatment. 

Keep us posted


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Yoghurt does not help birds, the healthy yeast in it is for mammals, not birds.*------------------
------------------------
Yogurt is *fine* to give the birds, or some acidophilus. In fact it was a avian vet that told me to use yogurt since it was readily available whenever I had crop issues with babies. 

many times the passing od whole seeds can be as simple to an imbalance of intestinal flora to something like an intestinal protozoa like giardia. When you see you vet he can do a gram stain first to see what is going on and if more testing is needed.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

great, I will give him some yogurt. Can I give him strawberry yogurt or does it have to be the plain kind?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Plain is best.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ugh...I tried giving him yogurt but he was terrified of it!! I will keep trying  My tiels have a very hard time adjusting to new foods.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

good news and bad news. Bad news first: Buddy was puffed up all day in the cage and ate very little. When he came out of the cage, he stayed up there all puffed up or preening. Good news: I called the vet and was able to change his appointment. They will see him today! I am so happy that Buddy won't have to wait. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Just came back from the vet. Buddy has Avian Gastric Yeast, and he is being treated with Amphotericin B. The vet did a gram stain and also blood work to test for lead poisoning. Luckily he doesn't have lead poisoning. If he doesn't get better by Wednesday they will do more blood work.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad the vet was able to see him today. Keep us posted on how he's doing. Sending get well wishes to Buddy!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Will do! Thank you!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

*Problem while administering oral medicine*

I already mentioned in another thread that Buddy has Avian Gastric Yeast and is being treated with an oral medication. When my husband and I were giving him the medicine today with a syringe, we did half, made sure he was ok, then gave him the other half. When we were done, he started making some weird noises like the medicine went down the wrong pipe. Sometimes he would breathe like there was liquid stuck inside, and then he would sneeze repeatedly. Other times he would breathe in heavily like he was having trouble breathing. And yet other times he would breathe normally. 
This went on for about 20 minutes (we didn't know what this was or what to do!), then after doing some research online we turned on the shower very hot and let him breath in the steam. I had to leave for work right away but my husband was able to stay with him for another hour. He said that Buddy seemed a little better and was eating. Should I be worried about this? Is this serious or dangerous? Do you think it got into his lungs or something? I feel terrible, because I was only trying to treat him! Please help!


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

It's quite possible that some of it went the wrong way My cockatiels make similar sounds after they decide to drown themselves in their bath 

I hope there is someone who knows what to do in such cases because i know how difficult it is to give medication to a cockatiel orally. What medication do you use for AGY? Is it water soluble?


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

This thread contains some helpful info on giving meds. I've never done it before so I dont' have first hand advice. If he is still having trouble breathing, I would call the vet. I hope everything is okay. http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=30757&highlight=oral+medication


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, everyone. He is being treated with Amphotericin B. It's a liquid medication, but the vet said that I could mix it with fruit juice. But he still needs to drink all of it, and he doesn't drink anything but water, so I don't see the point in mixing it with fruit juice. Therefore, we MUST give it to him using a syringe in his mouth. I am not home and don't know how he's doing, but when my husband left he said that he was better. I will go home soon and will check on him. I think I'm going to call the vet either way and ask what should be done in this situation. I just hope he's okay, I'm so worried! 

Now that I think about it, we held him horizontally when I gave him the medicine. Like, we held him as if he were laying down on his back. Maybe this caused it to go down the wrong way?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It's better to hold him on his side, and drip the meds in the corner of the beak from his left to his right. Then let him come upright to swallow. 

Most likely he got some of the meds in his sinuses, and just needs some time to clear them out. However, if he's still having trouble breathing later today, I would consult with the vet. It's less likely, but possible that he did aspirate some into his lungs, which is serious and can require additional treatment.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, enighma731! I got home and he is doing fine! I'm so happy 
He stopped sneezing and is breathing just fine, although sometimes he shakes his head. Maybe there is still a little bit left inside. I will do just like you said when I give him the med tonight.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Does anyone know how the treatment for AGY works? My bird had 2 doses of the medicine so far, one yesterday and one today. He is supposed to have 2 doses per day for 10 days. Today I noticed that he is more lethargic than yesterday, and has been puffed up in his cage for the whole day. He is still perching. There are also more seeds in his droppings today. How long does it take for the medicine to take effect? I am supposed to call the vet tomorrow and let her know how he's doing. Thanks for your help.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm not sure about antifungals, but I do know antibiotics can take 72 hours to work. Is the diagnosis of AGY definitive?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Well, the vet did a gram stain and said that he does have the presence of yeast in his stomach, and that she thinks it's AGY. However, his symptoms did not clearly point to a clear direction. He also has bubbles in his droppings and I forgot to tell her about that. Is this also a symptom of AGY?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It can be, but these symptoms can also indicate a bacterial infection of the GI. You might consider getting back in touch with the vet and asking about fecal cultures and/or bloodwork. It's good that he's still perching, but I find the increased lethargy concerning. Amphotericin is a pretty harsh drug, so it's conceivable that side effects could be making him feel yucky, but since youre not totally sure that it's the right treatment, you'll want to stay on top of the possibility that it just isn't working.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

You're right, I'm going to call the vet and talk to her.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I spoke to the vet and she said a few things:
1. Buddy definitely has AGY, although he could also have something else that is causing his symptoms.
2. His lethargic state and bubbles in droppings could mean 2 things: the disease is progressing and/or he is sleepy from the medication and the stress of having his blood drawn yesterday.
3. She will do more bloodwork to rule out problems in his other organs such as liver and kidneys. 

Hopefully its just AGY that he has. Poor Buddy.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Poor Buddy. I hope everything is okay. When do you think you'll hear about the other blood work?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

The vet just called me with the results, and his other organs are fine!! I am so happy about that. She also said that she could do more tests, but as of right now it makes more sense to treat him for AGY, because he definitely has that. Hopefully he will get better as I give him more of the medicine. This is my first time dealing with a sick bird and im so worried. I think his mate Cookie is also worried about him. She stayed next to him all day long on the perch. Do birds usually survive AGY?


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

It depends on how early you caught the disease, how much weight the bird lost. It is about the bird's immune system. Even though it is documented that there are cases of only AGY in a bird, it is more common as a secondary problem. Something compromises the immune system (another infection, diabetes etc etc) and the yeast which is naturally within the bird's system starts taking over. 

Did the vet give probiotics for only birds? It helps with re-building the gut flora very much. They are generally put in their water, so you wouldn't need to worry about giving it with a drop or syringe, either.

Amphotericin B is a very effective medication against AGY, but it is heavy, too. Maybe other members would help with their input on what else could be done to make your birds recovery easier and faster.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the great info. No, the vet did not prescribe probiotics for Buddy. Is there a way for me to get it, or does the doctor have to prescribe it? 

Buddy is skinny, but the vet said that he's not TOO skinny. He's a large cockatiel and weighs 90 grams. The vet said that his ideal weight would be 98 grams.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You can buy probiotics from pet stores or online. You don't need a prescription, but you might call and ask whether your vet has a recommended one. 

Also make sure that Buddy has lots of high calorie, appealing food available. If surrounding him with millet and sunflower seeds can get him to eat, then do it. You might also read the stickies on supplemental heat and setting up a hospital cage with lowered perches etc. The most important thing right now is supporting his body so it can fight the AGY. so if that means giving him extra heat, confining his space, and so on, all of those things will help.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, I will ask the vet about probiotics that she recommends. I've been offering Buddy his regular foods: seed mix, nutriberries, pellets, millet, and veggies (broccoli and kale). He ate very well today, actually. He ate 4 times. I'm a little reluctant about setting up a hospital cage for him, because he hates change, and he absolutely will not stay without his mate Cookie. She's been near him at all times today, and even when I take him out of the cage to give him his medicine, they scream bloody murder calling out for each other. I feel that if I change his surroundings, it will add stress to him. But I think that I will lower one of his perches. He is still standing at a high perch. Oh, and just this evening he got out of the cage and went to his play gym! So maybe he is starting to feel better? His droppings this evening still had seeds in them and were watery. I will keep you guys posted and will read the sticky about supplemental heat. Thank you!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I forgot to ask: is probiotics absolutely safe to give to my bird? Do people usually give it to their birds only when they are sick, or can it be given on a daily basis?
Also, I saw Buddy eating today, but not drinking. I am worried because his poops are watery, so I'm afraid that he's using up all the water in his body and is not replacing his supply. Would it be safe to inject water in his mouth with a syringe?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

*Probiotics/ apple cider vinegar*

I was reading some threads about probiotics and apple cider vinegar, and I am wondering if they have the same effect when given to a bird?
My bird is sick with AGY now and I want to give him probiotics, so I am wondering if giving him apple cider vinegar would be the same thing.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

No, probiotics is good bacteria that would go into his gut, ACV is added to the water to help prevent a yeast problem or stop it early. You should give the probiotics after he has finished his course of antibiotics. You can give ACV regularly at any time.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ohh, so I can't give him probiotics together with his anti-fungal medicine? 
For the apple cider vinegar, do you think it will do him any good as of right now?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

The ACV can't hurt and may even help if its not systemic. As to the probiotics, no they are to be given AFTER the antibiotics, not with them.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ok, good to know! I will buy some apple cider vinegar tomorrow and make the solution. Do you know what the right vinegar:water ratio is?
My bird is on anti-fungal, not antibiotics, but I'm guessing I should still wait to give him the probiotics?


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## vampiric_conure (Jul 8, 2012)

The vinegar-water ratio is pretty small. Usually a few drops of vinegar to a cup of water. Or a teaspoon to 4-5 cups of water. 

As for the probiotics - yeah, you might want to wait until the anti fungal treatment is over and done with. Good luck to you guys


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I would not give ACV while giving antifungals. At least not without consulting your vet. It is a medication in its own right, and could have interactions with the current medication.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Yeast is a fungus so its anti-fungal but yes its the same concept. Probiotics is give AFTER treatment for fourteen days.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The bird is already on Amphotericin B, which is a very harsh drug. My point is that I don't think ANOTHER supplement with antifungal properties should be given at the same time without consulting the vet. Supplements can still cause dangerous drug interactions, especially when they have the same or similar mechanisms.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

O no no, I didn't see your post!!! I was sitting on this page for a while before I finished my post so I posted AFTER you but didn't notice til it was posted, I wasn't contradicting you. When I was having issues with my birds, ACV was recommended to be given every day regardless for better health (to make the water slightly acidic).


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

it was ACV that saved munch's life when she had AGY


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think there are mixed views on it. I'd just want to be sure that combo wasnt too harsh.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

nah i wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with you, as munch was only on the ACV, no antifungals. i wouldnt know personally, if the meds are particularly harsh, then yes it might be good to talk to the vet about it first. i do agree there.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Ampho is very good for AGY, but it's known for being a nasty med. We looked at treating Roo with it back when she had her mysterious weight issues, but because of the side effects, it isn't the kind of drug you use as a preventative. I do think it's a good treatment choice for Buddy since there is a firm diagnosis, in his case.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's not actually clear what vinegar does. There are some apparent effects that have been observed, but there's not much in the way of scientific evidence and the reason for any beneficial effects isn't clear. Contrary to what many people think, it doesn't change the pH of the body, which is good because that would be very dangerous. Here's a good article on the subject: http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/04/houston-we-have-problem-apple-cider.html (it seems semi off-topic at first but then it gets to the point about halfway through this long article).

Excessive consumption of vinegar can cause major medical problems so caution must be used.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, thanks for the enlightenment, everyone. I will call my vet again and ask her. But from reading what you all said, it wouldn't make much sense to give him 2 anti-fungal medications, since the ampho is already pretty harsh. I think I'll stick to 1. He seems better this morning. He got happy when he saw me, ate a little, and is on top of the cage now. But his droppings from last night were ALL seeds and urate.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> But his droppings from last night were ALL seeds and urate.


That's something else to mention to the vet, as that's not normal or healthy. It could be that the intestinal flora has been thrown off.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

ok...do you think that it could be because of the AGY that he has?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Most likely, but it's always worth mentioning when symptoms get worse instead of better during treatment. Like I said before, it could be that the meds need some time to catch up to the infection, or it could be that they're not working. The vet is in a better position to make that assessment.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, I just called the vet and left her a message. He does seem more alert today, and he's eating and drinking. That's a good thing! 
Would it be ok with you super moderators if I start a threat about Buddy's progress? I feel like I'm posting way too much about him all over the place, but it's just that I've never dealt with a sick bird before and it would be very helpful to get advice on his progress.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think that's a very good idea to keep things together in one thread. Would you like me to merge your threads so far, or would you rather start a new one with a summary of things as they stand?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you so much, enigma731. I think merging the threads would be better. Would it be placed under "your cockatiel's health"?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sure, if that's where you want it. What do you want your title to be, and which threads do you want merged? It would help if you can give me the links.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

hmm...the title could be "Buddy's AGY progress", and the links are 
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=31760&page=3
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=31749
http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=31704

The vet called me back. I'll post what she said on the new thread.
Thank you so much!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay, done.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

great, thanks!
So the vet called me back and said that maybe his droppings are all seeds because of AGY. She said that he definitely has AGY, but he could have something else too, they don't know (she mentioned a virus), but the diagnostic test for this virus is not 100% accurate and there is no treatment for this virus. But she is confident that ampho is best for him right now, because he DOES have megabacteria, so there is nothing else that can be done for him right now. She also said it would be a good idea to give him apple cider vinegar, it wouldn't do him any harm. 

Buddy ate some sunflower seeds and his droppings came out better. For some reason, it's only millet seeds that come up undigested in his droppings. I will see if he can eat more of other things, but he seems to prefer the millet. At least he's eating, drinking, and perching.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

I hope Buddy continues to improve!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Since he likes millet but can't digest it, here's something you could try: buy some hulled millet (no shells) intended for human consumption from a local natural foods store. Soak or cook it then mash it up with a fork. Squished seeds will be easier to digest than whole seeds, and cooking makes some foods more digestible.

Don't leave the mashed seeds in the cage for too long - a couple of hours or so. Any wet food is a good environment for mold and bacteria, so you need to take it out of the cage before it goes bad.

If you make too much to use all at once you can freeze the excess in an ice cube tray to make convenient portion sizes, and keep the cubes in the freezer in a plastic bag until you're ready to use them.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, Tielfan. This is a great option to have. 
This evening Buddy was more active. He played with a toy a little, ate pellets and seeds, played with his cuddle bone, and even fought with his mate Cookie. When we were giving him his meds this evening I noticed that some of it got on the towel. I hope he still had enough of it! I hope he gets better soon


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I am so concerned and confused about Buddy. Today he seems more responsive. He was happy and screamed when I got home, and stretched his wings. This is something he had stopped doing when he got sick. Then he got out of the cage and walked on top of it for a little, when went back inside to his perch. But when I looked at his droppings, they were all seeds! It seems that nothing is being digested now. I feel so bad for him. His responsiveness is a sign that he is improving, but his droppings are a sign that he is getting worse. I don't know what to think anymore! The medication seems to be having no effect on his droppings. He started taking it on Monday, so I would guess he is supposed to be better by now? I don't know what else I could do....
Would it be safe to give him a solution of water, salt, and sugar? I am worried that he could get dehydrated.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Actually, I just noticed that his new droppings are coming out with a green part in them! This means that Buddy could be getting better after all!! Yesterday his droppings were composed of a white part, urine, and seeds. Now his new droppings have a white part and a green part sprinkled with seeds. Maybe he is recovering!


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

If you are worried about dehydration, you can give him pedialyte or coconut water.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Update on Buddy:
He seems to be _feeling_ better. He is much more active, gets out of his cage, plays on his play gym, mates with Cookie. He is eating and drinking normally. BUT, his droppings are up and down. Sometimes they are well formed and have very few seeds in them, but other times they are diarrhea with a reddish brownish liquid in them (blood???). Can anyone tell me what this means? I feel like his droppings and the way he is acting are contradicting each other, and I can't tell if he's getting better or worse.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

There may be more than one issue going on, like AGY and a bacterial infection, or AGY and heavy metal poisoning. It may be that you're treating one issue but not the other(s). You might still want to pursue more tests, like bloodwork and/or xrays.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for answering, enigma731. I am taking him to the vet on wednesday morning for a re-evaluation. The vet already tested him for lead poisoning and he is surprisingly clean. The vet said that sometimes it can take up to 30 days for the bird to completely recover from AGY, so it could also be that the medication is taking a few days to work. Does this sound accurate? Also, If he does have a second issue, like a bacterial infection, and given the fact that he is feeling better and eating normally, do you think he can still be cured? Thank you SO much for your help.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I am not a vet and have no personal experience with AGY, so please keep in mind that all my advice is based on reading I've done. But my general impression is that AGY tends to go along with other infections. So, you might need to treat with something like an antibiotic and an antifungal before he'll be completely better. The fact that you're treating the AGY could make him feel much better comparatively, but he could still need other meds to get better. It's also possible that the AGY is just taking a while to treat. I really don't know, but if it were my bird, these are the questions I'd be asking at the vet follow up.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, Enigma731. Yes, I understand that you are not a vet and get your info about AGY by reading. I do ask my vet all these questions, but I also want to get a second opinion from cockatiel experts, just to make sure that the vet is doing the right thing. I've heard so many stories about bad vets, and since I don't understand much about birds' health, it is nice to see a second opinion to see if the vet is treating him correctly. Hopefully they will figure out what is troubling him tomorrow. Poor Buddy, he had such a rough life at the nasty petshop I bought him from, I just want him to have a good life now. Thanks for the help.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, for what it is worth, I do think it sounds like your vet has done a good job so far.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes, what she is doing seems coherent with the advice that I'm getting here. I just don't understand why she had to wait all this time to see if he needs antibiotics as well? But I really appreciate all the advice that you've given me. They have been *very* helpful!


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## Caro234 (Aug 27, 2010)

I unfortunately have experience with AGY - our cockatiel Rocky had it. Symptoms were weight loss, polyuria, droppings consisting completely of seed and vomiting. He was misdiagnosed at first and was treated with antibiotics and acidified water which would work for several months then it would come back. In his case it was secondary to stress - change anything in his environment and he would get upset.
Eventually he was correctly diagnosed and treated for 5 days with amphotericin B via crop feeding. We saw an improvement within 3 days - the seeds in his droppings lessened and then cleared. We then treated him at home for a further 25 days with megabac S which is water soluble amp B and not so harsh. He improved his weight by 10% over that month and seemed to have recovered - however we lost him several weeks later to an unrelated incident so I can't tell you that this was a complete cure - however another cockatiel I know of was treated as above and was still doing well 6 months later.
Just going from my experience the amp b should have cleared his droppings so I think he may need other meds or he has not been getting the full dose of amp b. Hope this helps and that Buddy makes a full recovery.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, Caro234. It is very helpful to hear from other people who have dealt with AGY. I took Buddy to his follow up today, and the gram stain showed that he has no more AGY. However, the vet said that gram stains don't always show the presence of the fungus, so it is possible that he still has it. The vet also said that he definitely has something else going on, because the ampho B was supposed to have worked by now, if it is only AGY that he has. Unfortunately she suspects PDD (proventricular dilatation disease), because some of his organs are enlarged and he still has full seeds in his droppings. There is no treatment for PDD and no correct diagnosis. She took Buddy off of the ampho B and said that I could give him Megabac-S, although success is not guaranteed. Buddy also has a spiral micro-organism that is causing his throat to be red, so she gave him a dose of antibiotics, and I am to go back next week for another shot. Now, there is nothing else to be done for Buddy. I am heart broken.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I'm so sorry...has the vet mentioned maybe giving probiotics to see if that would help with the seeds in the poop?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

No, she didn't mention that... would it be okay to give him probiotics if he's taking antibiotics?
She hopes that the antibiotics that she gave him today (lasts for 1 week), will cure him if he has any bacterial infections...Otherwise, there is not much left to do...


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm so sorry. I don't know much about PDD. I'm sure others here have more knowledge. Any chance it's not PDD?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks, sunnysmom. Well, it could and could not be PDD. But based on his symptoms, the doctor believes it could be, since he did not get better with the ampho B. There is nothing else that she could come up with, except for pancreatic disease, but we already did blood work that showed that all his organs were normal. I might be mistaken, but it seems that avian medicine is not that advanced in certain areas, and there is no other tests that they can do that would specifically diagnose Buddy with something. If it's not PDD, there's also no way of finding out for sure what it is. I guess I might never know. I'm still hoping that he will get better with the antibiotics, though, and I hope that it's not PDD.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

There is no definitive test for PDD in the live bird, so in a live bird, it is always a diagnosis of exclusion. That means that it always COULD be something else that just hasn't been diagnosed yet.

I'm sorry you're facing this diagnosis, and I know it's scary. However, it's not true that there is NOTHING more to be done. There is no cure for PDD, but there are management strategies that can allow birds with the disease to lead a longer, more comfortable life than they would otherwise. I recommend that you do a search on it, both here and on the general internet, and read about other people's experiences and recommendations. Birds with PDD seem to do well on Celebrex, because it reduces the inflammation in the GI system. It also helps them to have a modified diet which is easier to digest. I'm by no means enough of an expert to make specific recommendations, but I know the information is out there for you.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

enigma731 said:


> There is no definitive test for PDD in the live bird, so in a live bird, it is always a diagnosis of exclusion. That means that it always COULD be something else that just hasn't been diagnosed yet.
> 
> I'm sorry you're facing this diagnosis, and I know it's scary. However, it's not true that there is NOTHING more to be done. There is no cure for PDD, but there are management strategies that can allow birds with the disease to lead a longer, more comfortable life than they would otherwise. I recommend that you do a search on it, both here and on the general internet, and read about other people's experiences and recommendations. Birds with PDD seem to do well on Celebrex, because it reduces the inflammation in the GI system. It also helps them to have a modified diet which is easier to digest. I'm by no means enough of an expert to make specific recommendations, but I know the information is out there for you.


I have come across a study with 8 definite and some more ongoing cases of PDD and they were treating the birds with Celebrex. They said that if the disease is caught before it damages the digestive system completely, it can be stopped. I will post the link and you can read, forward it to your vet.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Here it is: 

*A New Approach to the Treatment and Resolution of Clinical Proventricular Dilatation Disease (PDD) in Pet Birds *

"... PDD is a disease of suspected viral etiology with a potentially long incubation period of months to possibly years. Because the lesions of PDD are inflammatory in nature, we speculated that diminishing this reaction might lead to clinical improvement and resolution of clinical signs in affected birds. Anti-inflammatory agents with significant activity in the CNS, peripheral nervous system, and gastro intestinal tract that were safe for use in pet birds were identified. Of these, the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) appeared most useful."

For more: 
http://www.internationalparrotletsociety.org/pdd.html


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

enigma731 said:


> There is no definitive test for PDD in the live bird, so in a live bird, it is always a diagnosis of exclusion. That means that it always COULD be something else that just hasn't been diagnosed yet.
> 
> I'm sorry you're facing this diagnosis, and I know it's scary. However, it's not true that there is NOTHING more to be done. There is no cure for PDD, but there are management strategies that can allow birds with the disease to lead a longer, more comfortable life than they would otherwise. I recommend that you do a search on it, both here and on the general internet, and read about other people's experiences and recommendations. Birds with PDD seem to do well on Celebrex, because it reduces the inflammation in the GI system. It also helps them to have a modified diet which is easier to digest. I'm by no means enough of an expert to make specific recommendations, but I know the information is out there for you.


Yes, it could be something else too, but there doesn't seem to be too many diseases that causes birds to pass whole seeds in their droppings. The vet suggested doing a pancreas exam to see if he has pancreatic disease, but Buddy has NO symptoms of pancreatic disease. She also suggested a complete blood count and x-rays, none of which would give a definite diagnosis. So, PDD is an option, but no one will know for sure what he has. I will definitely research PDD and get more information on it. But I don't want to prolong Buddy's misery. I am watching him get wasted by the day; everyday he looks thinner and there's nothing I can do about it. It is so heart wrenching to see him like this. If this treatment for PDD will keep him alive longer but in misery, I rather let him go. That being said, I hope the anti-biotics work. If not, the next step would be x-rays and anti-inflammatory drugs. He has an organ enlarged and the vet will only be able to see which one with an x-ray. Hopefully that will narrow it down. I am also SO worried that it might be something that his mate Cookie could catch.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, Birdsoo. I will check the website you mentioned and will ask my vet to read it. Thank you so much for the help.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

You are welcome. I did some more research into it and have come across very promising results. It does not leave the bird in misery when they are being treated. I am about to sleep now, but I will try to find them again and post them here. (The medication is anti-inflammatory med anyway, so it should be reducing any possible pain)


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

And if it is PDD Cookie could catch it but she might not show symptoms for it takes time. She could also be just a carrier. 
They isolated the virus causing the problem somewhere around 2008 (or was it 2010??? Lets just say it was fairly recent) and it might be possible to get a test (probably an expensive one) to see if your bird has it. The developments regarding this disease are very recent. If a vet is not keeping up to date specifically on them, they might not be aware of it. (Mine did not know, and was surprised to hear about the good results Celebrex gave. She does not know English, though)

I will post more tomorrow, but I'm sure you can find the info if you searched a bit. Maybe you can contact the parrotlet society through their site to ask for more information on diagnosing.

Don't give up, yet


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

birdsoo said:


> They isolated the virus causing the problem somewhere around 2008 (or was it 2010??? Lets just say it was fairly recent) and it might be possible to get a test (probably an expensive one) to see if your bird has it.


Testing for Avian Bornavirus does not really help diagnose PDD. Estimates are that up to 60% of the captive bird population has ABV, but the great majority of those will never develop the PDD syndrome. The test itself is also very unreliable, because the bird will test positive if they have ever encountered the virus, even if they do not have it.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Indeed! Getting tests to eliminate other possibilities and starting on medication if they cannot find anything else may be an option. The virus has a long incubation time, so even if Cookie got it or she is a carrier, they might not see anything to suggest it symptom-wise.

I posted the article link, I think it is not allowed. Is it possible to delete it? I can send the link in PM just in case. (I dont know why I didnt think of that before)


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Theres nothing wrong with posting it. You just need to post the source if you're posting something that's not yours, which you did.  it's a helpful reference to have.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Buddy seems to be getting better! He is more active, more responsive, doesn't sleep as much, and today he went to his play gym all by himself and called Cookie to follow him. He is still a long way off from his normal self, but I noticed improvement! Since yesterday, his droppings don't have many seeds in them. I saw some today with just 1 seed. Should I dare to think that he will recover? I am *SO* happy! Hopefully this is a trend that will continue. He will take more antibiotics on Wednesday. 

On a different note, would it be bad for his progress if we left him at someone else's house for 1 week? We are going on vacation and want to leave them at my mother's house-they will be better cared for there. But I'm wondering if this new, strange place will stress Buddy and harm his immune system. Please advise.


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## meaggiedear (Nov 20, 2011)

It depends on Buddy's personality. Does he handle change well? 

I move my birds to my friend's house when I go on vacation. 

When they have all the same toys, same playmates, and their schedule stays the same- They adjust with no issues. I'm pretty sure they don't even miss me when I'm gone. lol.


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm glad to hear Buddy is doing better!


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks! I just took him to the vet for the second dose of his antibiotics, and the doctor was surprised at his improvement! She said that she has never heard of bacteria causing undigested seeds, so his improvement with antibiotics is new for her. Buddy's droppings is continuing to get better, and you can actually see more stool now. And he gained 3 grams in the past week!!! I'm also surprised at his weight gain 
So, if he doesn't continue to get better by next Tuesday, she will try Celebrex on him. Lets hope that he will continue to improve and that it's not PDD


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

It is also possible that there is a bacterial infection weakening his immune system, so he had AGY, causing droppings with undigested food. With Amp. B and the antibiotics (which one is it??), he might be getting both the primary and secondary problems dealt with. I am so happy he gained 3 grams! It is such a big progress! 

It is so good you have a very competent vet. Go Buddy, go go go!


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

birdsoo, i am pretty sure this can happen as yeast infections often are a secondary problem, so it very well can happen that way. or it can be both a yeast infection and a bacterial infection of the gut occuring at the same time.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Yes, that could be it! That makes perfect sense. The vet is not sure exactly what it is, but I guess it's hard for her to give an exact answer. The reason she gave him antibiotics in the first place is because he had Spirochete bacteria found in the back of his mouth, near the throat. The vet said that she never heard of Spirochete causing undigested seeds, but it's possible that perhaps he had another type of bacterial infection in his GI tract that was causing it. As for his swollen organ (which was better today!) she said it could be that since he was unable to digest seeds, the organ got pushed down, and now that he's starting to digest them again, the organ is moving back to its normal place. But I think it makes sense that the Spirochete weakened his immune system, and then he got AGY. But he's not on the Ampho anymore, he was only on it for a week, with no improvement. It was the antibiotics that made him improve. (He's on Doxycycline 20mg). I am SO happy right now. I hope he continues to improve.


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

Spirochete bacteria apparently finds its way to intestines and digestive organs in general. That could be why you could get the bacteria from a mouth or crop swab. 

When my cockatiel got sick, the vet took both mouth and vent swab. They both came back positive for e.coli and e.coli was causing bleeding in his digestive system. I remember reading that if e.coli is found in a bird's vent swab and bird does not look sick at all, more tests are done to see if the bacteria is taking over or if it is naturally there. But if it is found from the mouth swab, then they directly say the bird is sick, apparently, for e.coli lives in lower digestive system. Of course they made a distinction between birds with gram + gut flora and gram - gut flora. It has much more details, but I am sure I kind of made my point  

If it is in the mouth, it can easily move through digestive system and cause problems. I also read that spirochete weakens the bird's immune system, causes weight loss which is mainly muscle mass and causes wet, runny droppings. This and AGY as a result seem to be the culprit! Bring the handcuffs 

Now we need some Buddy photos


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

I get what you're saying 
So that could have been it. He could have gotten the Spirochete first, and then ended up with AGY later because his immune system was weak.
Buddy is SO active now. He still gets puffed up sometimes but it mainly just active with Cookie. However, there are still some seeds in his droppings. I wonder if I should try a different formulation of Ampho B. The vet said I could if I wanted to. I think I will do it after the antibiotics leave his system (Wednesday).

I will post some Buddy pictures soon


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## birdsoo (Jul 4, 2012)

That might be good. I read that Amp B should be given 10 days and if it does not clear the yeast completely, a second ten day course should be carried on. 

Did he put on more weight? Do you have a gram scale?


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Here are the Buddy pictures. He is the grey tiel. 
http://s1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/Carla819/Buddy/


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## sunnysmom (Sep 23, 2011)

Awww, he is very handsome.


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## CookieTiel (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you  He's my sweet boy


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