# Beautiful birds, Need Advice



## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

Introduced myself yesterday here and already I'm getting allot of great advise. Thanks so much.

Long story short. Went to purchase a bonded pair from what I thought was just a pet owner. Soon found out it was a breeder and the pair was not as she had described. I should have walked away then but from what I gathered from talking with her a bit she saw this pair as excess birds to be discarded. I knew what their future held for them especially if no one ends up taking them. Against my better judgement, I took them.

Here's where I start. The female layed an egg on the first night we had them. Breeder said she layed one over a week ago so I assumed she had stopped her breeding cycle. Don't really know what to believe now with this breeder. I left the egg where she layed in, which is in her food dish. I have limited the light time to 10hrs. No nest box, and no exess water. I did add another food dish because the other one has the egg in it and she sits on it.

Is there anything else I can do to try and get them off the breeding cycle? Also note, I called our vet and she suggested we wait about a week before taking them to her for a check up. She gave me a list of warning signs to look for and instructed me to take them in asap if I see them. Other than that she wanted me to let them settle in and just observe their behavior. She will want to know this. Our appointment is this weekend.

Also, in case you want to know. This is a pair of whiteface tiels. The male looks like it's pied as there are whites on him where there shouldn't be if he was just a regular whiteface. The female is definately just a whiteface, if you exchange the white with yellow and orange she would look like a regular grey.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I edit the heading of your post, and replaced Bad Breeder with Need Advice. This is not the place to point blame on someone else.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I found your intro post: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=17583

Can you describe the suspected health issues?

As to your veys advice, it sounds good. She probably wants you to wait til the hen is done laying before stressing her with capture and a vet visit. The reason for this is so that there is no egg forming, and when handling her risking the egg to rupture inside if it is still traveling down the oviduct.

In the interim you might want to *read the info below*. It will be helpful since she is laying eggs. Do you remember what type of lighting the breeder had for her birds. I have found that reproductive problems are *greatly reduced* if the birds are exposed to either real sunlight or if housed inside Full Spectrum Lighting (FSL) Since she is playing, and you don't have access to real sunlight (not thru a window) or FSL, you might want to get a FDL fixture. *Last resort*, until you find FDL you can go to Home Depot and buy a small 18" flourent fixture, and also buy a 18" sinlight flouresant tube. Replace the bi=uld that came with the flouresant fixture with the sunlight bulb. Place the fixrure on the top of the cage so that during daylight hours the birds are exposed to the light.
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*The Importance of Calcium*​　
We have all heard that it is important to supply calcium sources, especially when a bird is laying or breeding. The reason why is to provide enough calcium intake to produce strong, dense shell on the eggs, and to also be a preventative to soft of shelless eggs, which can contribute to egg binding and/or dystocia, impaction or prolapse of the uterus.

The most common recommendation is supplying cuttlebone or calcium supplements, and greens or veggies that are rich in calcium. In supplying this we think the bases are covered and aid as a preventative to a hens reproduction problems, yet have a hen that passes a soft shelled egg or is egg-bound…*why?*
* 
*Most times this is not enough. There are several factors that can influence the output of calcium circulating in the bloodstream, which is drawn from the bones while an egg is in the uterus (shell gland). 
*1...Proper lighting plays an important role in good reproductive health of hens*. Either available in the form of real sunlight (not filtered thru glass) or from Full Spectrum Lighting (FSL) In simple terms the skin absorbs the UV (ultra violet) rays from the lighting and the body converts it to useable D3, and this in turn aids the uptake of useable calcium. 

*2...Preventative water treatments such as ACV can change the pH in the digestive tract*. When the pH is higher than 6.5, absorption of phosphorus markedly decreases. Excess free fatty acids in the diet can cause the pH to decrease and therefore, interfere with calcium and phosphorus absorption. In summary, if the intestinal flora and pH is altered this can cause several problems. If preventative treatments are used it is better *to find the cause *and correct it. 

*3...Researching the sources of calcium and other mineral nutrients is very important. *High levels of phosphorus in the blood will inhibit the mobilization of calcium from bone. When this occurs this increases the chances of soft-shelled eggs which can lead to impactions and binding.
You can go online to search for the following: You can look up on this site which foods (Nutrient lists) are high in calcium: 
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ 
 
Below is a listing of what a shell consists of. When researching foods nutrient contents you will want to also look up which greens/veggies foods contain trace elements of the following:
Calcium carbonate: 94-97% 
Phosphorus: 0.3%
Magnesium: 0.2%
Sodium, Potassium, Manganese, Iron and Copper: traces 
Organic matter: 2% 

The small amount of organic matter mostly consists of matrix proteins (mixture of proteins and polysaccharides rich in sulphated molecules) and shell pigment. The matrix proteins are critically important in determining the egg shell structure and serves as foundation for the deposition of calcium carbonate. 

The structure of an eggshell when examined under a high powered microscope will look like a tangled network of mineralized fibers…kind of like looking at the mat in an air conditioner filter. The eggshell is formed around a mat of proteins, which is coated and overgrown by calcium carbonate and other mineral salts. The result is a tough, waterproof package that still allows gas exchange between the inside and the outside, enabling the developing embryo to 'breath', while providing astonishing mechanical strength. The shell has enough calcium carbonate in it, which as the embryo gets close to hatch, it can use this reserve to draw into the body and bloodstream for the developing bones.
　
*NOTE: most greens and veggies contain oxalic acids. *These will bind useable calcium from foods. What you want to do is look for foods that have a *higher* calcium content than oxalic acid. _The *useable calcium *is the difference between the two._ 

Print out the following tables from both links:
Guinea Lynx ::Oxalic Acid in Selected Vegetables
Guinea Lynx :: Calcium Chart 
Once you print out the 2 links above, you will have to look at the listed calcium level in this link: http://www.guinealynx.info/diet_ratio.html Deduct the oxalic acid levels to give you a clearer pix of the calcium to phosphorus ratios. The calcium to phosphorus ratio should be 2:1.
 
*Examining and providing the best sources of calcium does not stop at providing good shell quality. 

*During the last 15 hours of shell formation (when the egg is in the uterus, also called a shell gland), calcium movement across the shell gland reaches a rate of 100-150 mg/hr. This process draws calcium from two sources: diet and bone. Intestinal absorption of calcium in the diet is about 40% when the shell gland is inactive, but reaches 72% when active. This time closely coincides with late afternoon or the dark hours for the layer. Having higher calcium levels in the gut during this time is important to ensure calcium is being taken from the diet and not bone.

*NOTE: We are warned not to provide sources of sodium to our birds, *but many can go to the extremes of eliminating all sources of sodium and this can have an negative effect on a laying hen. The lack of (or deficiency) trace minerals and salt can be contributing factors to soft shelled eggs, and poor uterine muscle tone. This is also true of many birds that die of egg binding. Salt/sodium aids in the muscle contractions. When there is a deficiency there can be a loss of muscle tone to expel the egg. Therefore in your researching on a diet supplying needed calcium, and other trace minerals, try to include sources of sodium.

The need for a good source of calcium does not stop at supplying it prior to egg laying. The calcium is drawn into the developing embryo as it grows through the vascular network of blood veins radiating into the body from the yolk. During this time the embryo draws calcium from the shell to strengthen developing bones. If the calcium in the shell is insufficient this can contribute to weaker bones, and problems such as splayed leg , soft flexible leg bones, and/or fractures forming within days after hatch. For good bone growth and strength these post hatch problems can be avoided by supplying food sources rich in calcium and trace minerals to the feeding parents.


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

Yes you are correct about the vets recomendation. One was the possibility of more eggs and 2 stress. She explained that what we may percieve as sick behaviour, such as inactivity, shyness, agression or even rough looking appearance can be linked to stress. New home, new cage, new toy, and new owners are very stressful for any pet.

The health issues I'm still unsure, I'm not an expert nor do I have enough experience with these birds to make a positive determination. That's why I'm here. The breeder told me all they have ever ate was seeds. I know enough that this isn't good. The female also has a swollen oil gland, has a lump on her behind. Now again I am ignorant to these things so I looked it up on the internet and found that this may have been caused by lack of vitamins which makes sense if all they ever ate was seeds. Vet knows about this but seems like she's playing it down. Either she doesn't believe it's too serious or she just doesn't want to alarm me until I get my birds to her on the weekend.

The male looks very lethargic (spelling), fluffed up and still. Again this could be stress of the new suroundings but compared to the female this worries me. The female is much more animated, playing with toys, chirping, eating, drinking, etc. Her feathers are fairly neat and tight. I have seen the male eat and drink but that's it. Not sure about this situation yet.

Last night the female was very lively so I opened the cage and she sat on the door. It's as far as she would go but she did let me and my kids touch her and rubb her chest and belly. She wouldn't step up but we didn't push the issue. Thought this was a big breakthrough. Here's the bad news. She layed another egg.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The oil gland is called the uropygial gland or preen gland. Hypovitaminosis A can cause it to malfunction (such as being blocked) Also damage to the gland from over preening could cause for it to be blocked. When the gland is damaged due to injury or diet the end is closed which traps the oil. Most times the matter can be expressed from the gland to remove the build-up inside.

As to the male...what breeding info did you get from the seller? The male sounds like he may be sufferring depression if the pair recently had a clutch of babies that were pulled (taken from them for handfeeding/whatever) Many times when this happens it will stimulate the pair to go right back to nest to replace the lost babies. His run down appearance may be from caring for babies, because most males tend to be more maternal than the hens and will feed them over feeding themselves.

You might want to ask the seller when their last clutch of babies were, how they were as parents, how many successive clutches in a row did they have, etc.


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

The breeder told be they had a clutch last year. When I picked them up she said the female had layed an egg a week ago. I really don't know how much of this to believe. For all I know they could have had a clutch last month. She had allot of birds in her basement. Some looking like weeks old with just pin feathers. I can't say if they were from this pair as I saw other pairs as well.
You are correct about the male being maternal. He sits on the eggs most of the day. The female will chirp him off at night but if she gets off for any reason he comes over and sits on them.

I really don't know what to do at this point. I'm pretty sure these eggs are fertile. It's killing me to know that their chances of life is poor if I keep them in the food dish. At the same time if I put a nest in then they will for sure have more eggs. I am not convinced that this pair is in any shape to raise a family right now. Maybe the vet will prove me wrong. 

My preference is to just let these birds get use to their new home. Start eating well and be happy and healthy. Babies are not important for us for this pair. The kids also just want to play with them. But what if they are so set to have this clutch and I cannot stop them? Hate to lose their eggs knowing that they are fertile. Hate killing anything.

What to do? I think I bit off morethan I can chew. Maybe it was best I left them at the breeder. All I wanted was pets for my kids and maybe babies in the future. This is what happens when you think from the heart and not your mind.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*The breeder told be they had a clutch last year.*
*---------------------------------*

LOL...last year (2010) could have been less than a month ago.

OK...you are at a standstill here. What you can do, since the hen *is* laying is to make her comfortable and supply bedding, and a diet that will provide the nutrient/calcium needed for laying. 

Whether or not you planned on her laying eggs you will have to let her finish laying the entire clutch. The eggs may or may not be fertile. 

if they are you are faced with another delemia. You plan on going to the vet once done laying for a checkup. If the eggs are fertile and you take both birds to the vet the eggs get chilled and die. 

If you want to avoid that or don't want babies right now you might consider switching each new egg with a fake egg as she lays them. You can buy fake eggs online (do a Google search) or you can have a family project and make them. You can get Fimo or Sculpty at an arts and craft store such as Micheals. It is a modeling compound that hardens when it is put in a home oven for a short time (directions on the pkg) Make some eggs that are the same size and color that your hen has, and as an egg appears in her nest swap out with the fake. This way the pair has something to sit on til they finially abandon the nest.


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

Oh what a great idea! So should I get a nest and let her finish this clutch? Or should I just let her use the food dish as she is doing now?

Now with the fear of egg binding as I'm quite sure she is lacking the proper vitamins and minerals in her body. Should I put vitamin suppliments in her seed dish. Forget veg and fruit, neither will touch them. I've tried, am trying still as I still stick these in a separate dish. The cuttlebone is getting eaten by the female, I've seen her biting away at it all the time. Should I scrape more and put into her food as well?

Is there a good time to make the egg switch? There are 2 now should I switch up both at once or one at time and see how they react first?

Most important, what should I be looking for in case she starts to get into trouble laying eggs?

Sorry for the all the questions, I just want to make sure all goes well.

Thanks


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If the hen prefers the feed dish, then let her continue with it.

As she lays an egg swap it out.

OK...what *many *people overlook is good quality FSL lighting or access to real sunlight. Many times a hen can have an excellent diet and several sources of calcium, *and still* get egg-bound, prolapse, or pass soft-shelled or shelless eggs. The lighting (simple explanation) is absorbed by the skin, and the body converts it to a natural form of Vitamin D3. D3 is essential to aid the body in the absorption of calcium in the bloodstream.

And here is something to read: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/egg-related-problems.html


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

OK, back from the vet. So much for what I know. The lump on my female's back was an egg and not a swolen oil gland. Although she did say it was a little big but not blocked. Vitamin deficiency is the probable cause but not sure, I was instructed to keep an eye on it.

The male she deemed healthy but looked worn out. Someone here suggested that this may be a second consecutive clutch and the vet also suspects this. He's a very good father, too good sometimes for his own good. The famale looked healthy because the male did his job and then some. Vet suggests a nice long well deserved break for this guy after this clutch has run it's course.

As far as the eggs? Well I brought the first one with me. Vet checked and it was clear. She suspects the other to be the same. She OK'd to put a nest box in and allow this pair to finish this round of breeding. This is an experienced pair and although they aren't as energetic as she would like them to be, they should be able to ride this out. This is true for any pair that have consecutive breeding and is not out of the ordinary for breeders to do. Only one catch. Although the vet believes that this clutch may be all clear because of the stress of the new home during the cycle. There is still a chance that there may be fertile eggs. If so, we must be ready to hand feed at any given moment. If parents are tired now, then rearing will definately wear them even more. This is just a possibility and again she still thinks the parents should be able to pull this off.

We also learned the female is a whiteface and the male is a pied whiteface. She thinks the female is about a year or two younger but no real scientific proof just observation and guess. Not a good idea to try and change their diet now but suggests if they do have babies. Offer everything I got. Rearing parents are not picky and if they're going to try veg and fruit for the first time this is when.

When all is said and done, our vet wants to see these two after the breeding cycle and they are well settled in. She want to look at the female's oil gland more thoroughly and wants to see the male if he's getting his strength back. Load off my chest. And now the worry of egg binding and the male's health starts. Got a hand it to you breeders, you must have a heart of steel to have to go through stuff like this.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Thanks for the update. It sounds like the vet visit went well.

Some thoughts/questions.....

*The lump on my female's back was an egg and not a swolen oil gland.*
*---------------------------------------------*

OK...can you clarify on this*, OR *post some clear photos of the area in question? But an egg *will not* be on a hens back, unless it was broken and stuck to the feathers. When a hen is ready to lay the lower back above the tail will have a hunchbacked look to it.

*We also learned the female is a whiteface and the male is a pied whiteface.*
*-----------------------------------*

You might want to* go back and read* what I had posted in your introduction post. When breeding 'like to like' (same mutations, meaning whiteface) quality and size suffers, mortality in the nest is increased. It *does not matter* how rested or healthy the pair are, it is the genetics working against the birds.

*And now the worry of egg binding *
*----------------------------*
*Read* some of the earlier postings in this thread. You have birds which you do not know their breeding background, history or diets. One thing you do need is proper lighting, which goes a long way to prevent most female reproductive problems. Since you have handled and moved the birds (to the vets) if an egg was formulating in the oviduct this can be remotely problematic. If the hen is still laying research and offer foods that will be benefical as calcium sources.


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## smegmas36 (Jan 18, 2011)

It was the lower back above the tail. But me being so paranoid I started reading and reading and convinced myself she was sick. She was not and I was assured by the vet.

She also told me about genetics. The vet at first thought that this pair came from just a pet owner who she said usually buy birds for their looks and personality and not so much for breeding. But when I told her it was from a breeder she was not impressed. I assured her that I was not planning on being a breeder. I admitted that that was the plan to have babies from our pets but that all went out the window from the health concerns we had for these birds. We are at the point now that if they have babies it's fine, if they don't that's fine as well. We won't go out of our way to induce them into breeding. These two are beautiful looking birds. 

Just an update. I have been leaving the cage door open and the female until now has sat at the door and just looked out. She lets us touch her but that's it. Earlier today she flew out and went straight to my shoulder. She was nervous but stayed there for a while. I got nervous because I saw the size of her poop as she is still laying eggs. I didn't want that on my shoulder. I walked back towards the cage and leaned at the door. She stepped back in the cage. Small steps but definately something to look forward to as having these birds as pets.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*Earlier today she flew out and went straight to my shoulder. She was nervous but stayed there for a while. I got nervous because I saw the size of her poop as she is still laying eggs. I didn't want that on my shoulder.*
*--------------------------------------------------------*

That is GREAT news  I'd say most cockatiels available have been handfeds, so buying adults there is a good chance that under the right conditions and care they will settle down and be nice loving pet.

LOL...the big poops will pass once she is no longer nesting. In the interim you might want to have a towel on your shoulder or an old shirt to wear when she is out to catch the poops.


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