# Full crop even after several hours



## Dragona (Apr 2, 2017)

I wrote in another thread, but i guess it's better to just open a new one to have more info. 

As i previously said:



> [...] I'm concerned for my tiel didn't empty his crop after the morning feed :\
> His crop feels pretty... bloated (i don't know if it's food or air?). It's only been 7h since morning, but he doesn't seem as "energetic" as yesterday. It could be because he's with me in my room, and given cuddles, so no screaming,, but even yet he isn't begging for food. Not much.
> 
> He still tried to fly away (and managed to), and is currently playing with a rag.
> ...


Now i noticed that he's sleepy, very much so. He never stays still when i'm holding it, yet now he's sleeping. 

I'm very concerned, as I read about slow/sour crops, and I don't feel i could help him now (even though i can try). He never had this problem in the weeks i had him... 

For context: i let him nibble at an apple yesterday, maybe it stuck inside?

Thank you for every help you can give me >.<


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## Janalee (Jul 25, 2012)

*full crop*

Do you have an avian vet nearby? If your bird does have sour crop, it would need to be flushed by a vet. He also might need antibiotics. It would be good to have a vet look at him, even if it isn't sour crop. Have you noticed any bad smell coming from your bird's mouth? Since i is decaying food, it does smell bad.
I hope your little friend will be well soon!


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## EllenD (Oct 9, 2016)

You need to get him to an avian vet immediately to flush his crop. This is very treatable but urgent. In the meantime follow this link for some things you can do in the meantime, but if your cockatiel is an adult and this has happened he probably has a yeast infection and needs an avian vet immediately.

http://www.justcockatiels.net/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html


"Dance like nobody's watching..."


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## Dragona (Apr 2, 2017)

Janalee said:


> Do you have an avian vet nearby? If your bird does have sour crop, it would need to be flushed by a vet. He also might need antibiotics. It would be good to have a vet look at him, even if it isn't sour crop. Have you noticed any bad smell coming from your bird's mouth? Since i is decaying food, it does smell bad.
> I hope your little friend will be well soon!


There aren't any bad smells comming from him, only the "feathery bird" one that is normal. 

I do not have an avian vet narby, unfortunately. 



EllenD said:


> You need to get him to an avian vet immediately to flush his crop. This is very treatable but urgent. In the meantime follow this link for some things you can do in the meantime, but if your cockatiel is an adult and this has happened he probably has a yeast infection and needs an avian vet immediately.
> 
> http://www.justcockatiels.net/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html
> 
> ...


He's not an adult, he has barely 4/5 weeks. 

I read how to do a flush, but is it really 100% necessary? I don't want to hurt him. 

Ansd by "i have not an avian vet nearby" means it is 2 hours away.

Edit: Also i didn't give him food in the afternoon feeding... Do i have to give him the night feeding? Even if only a few ml?


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## ParrotletsRock (Oct 8, 2013)

Dragona said:


> There aren't any bad smells comming from him, only the "feathery bird" one that is normal.
> 
> I do not have an avian vet narby, unfortunately.
> 
> ...



Adding fresh food on top of sour food in the crop can be a recipe for disaster.. it sounds like he is going downhill and you really need to see if you can get him to that vet, check vets closer to you and see if any are exotics vets ... my vet is not an avian vet , he is an exotics vet but very knowledgeable with birds and does treat them. With out getting the proper antibiotics, antifungals and crop motility meds your chick may not make it.


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## EllenD (Oct 9, 2016)

You need to get him to a vet immediately! I had no idea this was a 4 week old baby bird! Most likely you are not keeping him in a brooder so he isn't nearly warm enough and this is the main reason he is not digesting his food. He has gone into something called "crop stasis", and if you don't get him to a vet he's going to die. Also, have you been using a cooking thermometer to make sure his formula is always fed between 105-110 degrees Fahrenheit? If too cold crop stasis and yeast infections will happen, if even one degree too hot you could have burnt his crop, which would also be fatal. Either way he's now in a situation where you absolutely cannot feed him on a full crop that is full of now sour, rotting food. But to answer your question yes, of course you must always feed him ALL of his daily feedings, you should have him on a feeding schedule that takes away a feeding each week and a half or so. However, at 4 weeks he should be getting and begging for and giving a feeding response for and eating a full amount every 3-4 hours. He isn't begging, he's not eating what you're offering, and he has no feeding response because he's in crop stasis and now you absolutely cannot feed him as long as his crop is full of rotting food. And he most likely will also need an antifungal and/or an antibiotic because along with the crop stasis and rotting food comes infections. 

If I were you I'd be in my car with my baby bird and driving the 2 hours to see the certified avian vet! 2 hours is not far at all to see a certified avian vet that knows what he's doing as opposed to a general dog/cat vet that may only be able to prescribe medicines, which will do you no good at all without a major crop flush, yes he needs a major crop flush, probably multiple flushes with specific solutions. But unless you have experience doing a crop flush and you have different sized crop tubes to do them, you absolutely should not even be attempting it because you will likely aspirate him and if that happens he will die instantly.

Drive the 2 hours! I've seen plenty of people drive 8 hours one way to save their birds! 2 hours is nothing! In the meantime you need to get that baby into a brooder or a handmade brooder, and keep him between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit, which he should have been kept at this entire time!!! He's going to die otherwise, either from infections or starvation or dehydration, so you have very limited options. 

"Dance like nobody's watching..."


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## shaenne (Apr 19, 2014)

Mixing a couple drops of apple cider vinegar with warm water (not hot, but a bit hotter than luke warm) and feeding a few cc's with a syringe, skipping the next feed and leaving the baby to rest for a few hours very often did the trick for me. This was for my Eclectus though and only effective when crop issues were caught relatively early.

There are also some helpful remedies here; http://www.justcockatiels.net/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html

I do recommend getting your baby to a vet so do ring around and try to find someone that can help him, but I also know how scarce they can be. Before we moved to where we are now, my closest avian vet was 2.5 hours away. Not particularly helpful when you have a baby tiel with crop issues!

Because of that, I did learn how to perform a crop flush myself. It looks daunting but it's actually very easy. I highly recommend having someone help you though.

Also, to the above post.. 85-90F (29-32C) is too warm for a baby of this age. At 4-5 weeks he/she should be fully feathered or very close to it, and the brooder temperature needs to come down as they feather out so they don't over heat. At this age I generally have my brooder/s at 79-82F (26-27C).

Also 2 hours IS a long drive to some people. It may not be to you but other people have different circumstances.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I don't have enough information to determine whether there's a crop problem or not - it certainly sounds like it could be. Can you push the feathers aside to see what the crop area looks like?

But I'd like to remind everyone that this is a fledgling who has already taken his first flight. He is fully feathered and does not need to be kept warm in a brooder like a younger baby does. In the wild he would be sitting in a tree with his parents, not keeping warm in a nest. 

Fledglings also don't eat as much as younger babies. They're not growing as fast as they were before, and they can't fly with a heavy crop weighing them down.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

EllenD said:


> But unless you have experience doing a crop flush and you have different sized crop tubes to do them, you absolutely should not even be attempting it because you will likely aspirate him and if that happens he will die instantly.
> 
> Drive the 2 hours! I've seen plenty of people drive 8 hours one way to save their birds! 2 hours is nothing! In the meantime you need to get that baby into a brooder or a handmade brooder, and keep him between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit, which he should have been kept at this entire time!!! He's going to die otherwise, either from infections or starvation or dehydration, so you have very limited options.


Once again (like I said in the other thread), aspiration _is not a risk_ unless you shove the tube down the airway instead of the esophagus (which almost physically impossible to do.) Crop tubing is actually much safer in this regard than delivering anything orally. Have you personally used a crop needle before? 

I also think it's a hugely privileged statement to assume that everyone can drive two hours, and that "it's nothing." We don't even know if this bird has a crop problem, maybe let's not jump to "he's going to die."


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

To Dragona: if you still can't get to a vet, do you know of any experienced breeders in your area who might be able to look at the baby and advise you? If there are any bird shops or pet bird clubs in your area, they might be able to help you locate someone.

Can you talk to the person that you bought him from? I'm assuming that they are either the breeder, or someone at a pet shop who was knowledgeable enough to take care of an unweaned baby.


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## Dragona (Apr 2, 2017)

Okokok, everybody, just a quick update to calm the situation: He's fine today.

Yesterday i gave him bicarb (?) with water and a droplet of lemon (it was one of the remedies on the link EllenD gave) then let him without more food for the night. 
Today (minutes ago) i went to check and his crop isn't bloaty at all. I don't know if i overreacted or if the bicrb with water helped, but it's gone. I gave him his morning feeding (wich he happily chugged) and his crop filled as normal. No signs of pain, of discomfort or else: just a hungry tiel.

@tielfan: Yesterday his crop seemed... "normal but void", as in "normal", not red, green, yellow or else, just translucent (not much, i couldn't see food inside) and there wasn't food inside. I checked, double checked, but there was nothing in there, not even water, i think just air.

@EllenD: 2 hours may seem not much, but to me, a carless 21 yo living alone and reliying on pubblic transportation, are way too many to even try. Not for lack of will, but not only it's difficult to reach 2h+ away in bus/train, having a sick tiel with you is the easiest way to get the baby hurt, lost or scared. So please, don't assume it was out of laziness i didn't bring him to the vet, i WOULD have done 10+ hours of car if possible, and today, if things were not better, I would've gone to the closest vet here. 

Thank you everybody for the concern, and sorry for the scare (?)


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm glad he's fine today! I don't normally look at my babies' crops after they fledge so I don't know for sure, but it's possible that it's normal for them to sometimes have an empty crop at this age. Adult birds don't keep their crops stuffed full all the time, and this baby has reached the age where it starts learning adult habits and adult skills.

He'll still need some handfeeding for a few more weeks, but it's time now for him to start learning to feed himself. As he becomes more skilled at this he'll need less handfeeding until eventually he doesn't need it at all. The feeding right before bedtime will be the lat one to go, they need more food at this time to help them get through the night. 

Did we talk about weaning foods in the other thread? Basically you provide him with easy to eat foods like millet spray, vegetables, and grains that have been soaked or cooked to make them soft. Offer them spread out on a flat surface like a table top or a plate, so he can pick around the ground like he would in the wild. Offer some harder to eat foods too like pellets and hard seeds. It will take him longer to learn to eat those, but he needs to have them available so he can practice.

When you've got a sick bird and the nearest vet is hours away, one of the factors that you need to consider is whether the stress of the trip will overwhelm the bird and make its condition worse, and whether staying at home giving the best care you can manage might give the bird a better chance of recovery. You have to balance the possible benefits of the trip against the risks. There are no easy answers to problems like this, and not everyone will make the same decision.


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## Janalee (Jul 25, 2012)

*full crop*

So glad he's okay!


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## EllenD (Oct 9, 2016)

enigma731 said:


> Once again (like I said in the other thread), aspiration _is not a risk_ unless you shove the tube down the airway instead of the esophagus (which almost physically impossible to do.) Crop tubing is actually much safer in this regard than delivering anything orally. Have you personally used a crop needle before?
> 
> I also think it's a hugely privileged statement to assume that everyone can drive two hours, and that "it's nothing." We don't even know if this bird has a crop problem, maybe let's not jump to "he's going to die."


I completely disagree, as I saw someone using a small, 1ml oral syringe go in the left side of the baby's beak, aiming diagonally to the right, and slowly push the formula, following the baby's head bobbing...Baby suddenly shook his head, gasped, and fell over dead. 

Aspiration can happen at any time you are hand feeding a baby, you absolutely do not have to be putting the tube or syringe down the esophagus to aspirate a baby bird!

"Dance like nobody's watching..."


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

EllenD said:


> enigma731 said:
> 
> 
> > I completely disagree, as I saw someone using a small, 1ml oral syringe go in the left side of the baby's beak, aiming diagonally to the right, and slowly push the formula, following the baby's head bobbing...Baby suddenly shook his head, gasped, and fell over dead.
> ...


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This picture from the article at http://www.internationalcockatielresource.com/hand-feeding-utensils.html has an illustration of using a crop needle and tells how to use it. You literally stick the tube or needle down the baby's throat so it's inside the crop. I've never done it so it looks very scary to me, but people who have actually done it say it's not as bad as it looks.










It's relatively easy to aspirate a chick with the ordinary short-tipped syringes that we use for normal handfeeding. You're just depositing the food in the mouth, and it's possible to squirt it into the wrong tube. A crop needle bypasses this area so you can't miss.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> This picture from the article at http://www.internationalcockatielresource.com/hand-feeding-utensils.html has an illustration of using a crop needle and tells how to use it. You literally stick the tube or needle down the baby's throat so it's inside the crop. I've never done it so it looks very scary to me, but people who have actually done it say it's not as bad as it looks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought that too, until I actually tried it. It's not scary at all. You don't even have to push it in, it falls right down into the crop when you have it at the right angle, and it's not uncomfortable for the bird. The only issues I've ever had were birds who were generally unhappy with being toweled. Oral med administration, on the other hand, is much scarier and riskier.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

You have experience with medical procedures in general, so it might be easier for you than it is for the rest of us! But other people without medical experience have also said that it's not that bad.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> You have experience with medical procedures in general, so it might be easier for you than it is for the rest of us! But other people without medical experience have also said that it's not that bad.


I didn't when I learned to crop feed  But fair point, I am probably less squeamish than some about things like this.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I imagine that I could do it if I had to. But I'm hoping that I never have to!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think it's the best skill I've ever learned, bird-health-wise! I give all my meds that way now because I find it to be less stressful on the bird than trying to force them to swallow and not spit it out.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I've only had to give oral meds to one bird, and she was a baby so she was fairly cooperative. It wouldn't be fun trying to do it to an adult bird. 

I don't like gavage feeding as an ordinary feeding technique, because it short-circuits the normal feeding process. The baby doesn't even get to taste the food. But the technique has huge value for medical purposes.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I've only ever gavage fed sick adults, so fair enough on that one. As I'm sure you know, my flock has needs that have required literally thousands of medication administrations on a semi-regular basis over the years. I'm just really glad crop tubing is in my emergency skill set, because according to several vets I've known, needing to be tube fed is the second most common reason for birds to need hospitalization (#1 being blood loss from broken blood feathers). 

I do sort of think that anyone who has birds but might not have readily available emergency vet access would benefit from learning blood feather first aid, gavage feeding, and nasal flushes. 

I guess my take-home point here is that I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suggest that people try it in an emergency. It's definitely better if you can have someone show you how in person, but I think it's totally doable from a diagram or Youtube video in a pinch. When I learned, my vet described it and then just had me try, because a) it's kind of a hands-on thing and b) it's really not risky as long as you're not using force against resistance.


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## shaenne (Apr 19, 2014)

I've done a crop flush with a tube and i've also fed with a crop needle, and I have absolutely no medical experience whatsoever haha, it's definitely not as scary as it looks! It's a little daunting when you go in the first time but it doesn't take long to get the hang of it.


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