# Mineral Grit



## Lulu-Tiel (Jun 3, 2012)

I bought some of this stuff (see link below) for Lucss because I thought it was for cockatiels. I ordered it online with the rest of my stuff. When I got it I realized I'd made a mistake and it wasn't for cockatiels. Would it be OK to feed or no? I can always give it to my Mom to use for her birds if it's not suitable for my birds. 

http://www.exoticwings.com/shoppe/h...neral-bird-grit-fine-higgins-grit-p-4606.html


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Grit is somewhat controversial. I've thought of offering it to my birds, but only in small amounts. What has happened to some cockatiels..is that they've been mineral deficient and will eat too much grit and then they will get their crop impacted. You want to avoid that. 

I do think it can be beneficial in small amounts, though it definitely is not neccessary for cockatiels.


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## Lulu-Tiel (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't like the sounds of that. I don't think I'll be offering it to them! Thank you!


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

In small amounts its okay, but calcium carbonate, egg shell, or just plain oystershell are better choices. That mix has rock in it that is intended for flat bills like ducks or chickens digestive systems.


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## Lulu-Tiel (Jun 3, 2012)

I have a friend with all sorts of ducks and chickens. Maybe I'll just give the package to her? I don't feel comfortable feeding rocks to my babies!!!! :/


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Grit is actually a natural part of a cockatiel's diet. It has to be used carefully though because it IS possible for them to overeat it. I have that same brand and I provide small amounts to the flock about once a week, and they love it. I think this is all soluble grit, which means that it will break down and get passed through the body. Insoluble grit is the kind that doesn't break down and doesn't provide any nutrition - it's strictly a food-grinding aid, and it's the kind that you have to be more cautious about. 

But it's up to every person to decide what they're comfortable with, and if you're not comfortable offering grit to your birds then don't do it. Cockatiels don't require grit like some other species do, and there are other ways to provide the minerals they need.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

tielfan said:


> Grit is actually a natural part of a cockatiel's diet. It has to be used carefully though because it IS possible for them to overeat it. I have that same brand and I provide small amounts to the flock about once a week, and they love it. I think this is all soluble grit, which means that it will break down and get passed through the body. Insoluble grit is the kind that doesn't break down and doesn't provide any nutrition - it's strictly a food-grinding aid, and it's the kind that you have to be more cautious about.


I feel like there is something fundamental I may not be understanding about grit. I thought that grit was not supposed to be soluble (or was only semi-soluble) maybe you can help me understand the connection between the soluble and insoluble varieties.

I have seen calcium carbonate listed as grit, packaged, and sold as such. Though, my common sense tells me that calcium carbonate, although it is a collection of minerals; is not grit (or at least it isn't grit as I understand it).

Is it the case that anything which is a concoction of minerals can be considered grit?

Or is it that some of this stuff that is listed as grit is actually just a supplement of sorts?

Maybe this stuff actually does aid in the digestion of birds in a way that I do no know?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There are two types of grit: soluble and insoluble. Both types help birds grind up their food, and the soluble kind also dissolves and provides mineral nutrients. Insoluble grit doesn't do this, it just wears down until it's small enough to pass through the digestive tract. Powdered calcium carbonate isn't grit because it's too fine to help with grinding, but chunks of it can legitimately be called grit IMO.

Parrots don't require grit to help them digest their food, but I suspect that it makes digestion easier, and that's why parrots like to consume both soluble and insoluble grit. The nutritional benefits of some types are also a plus, obviously.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

P.S. There are some sources that ignore soluble grit and talk about the insoluble kind only. This makes it easier to condemn grit IMO but I don't think it's a realistic definition because it doesn't tell the full story about the way birds use it.

This article can help provide some perspective: http://www.parrots.org/pdfs/all_abo...n/Minerals and Grit - of Vital Importance.pdf It doesn't consider calcium carbonate to be grit but still thinks it's useful.

The article quotes from a medical text that defines grit as the insoluble type only and states that birds don't need it. The article does not point out that the text was written by the owner of a pellet company (Harrisons) who prefers for birds to eat a diet of about 80% pellets. It's true that a bird like that doesn't need much help with grinding or supplemental minerals, but lots of us don't feed our cockatiels that way and think that a more varied diet is preferable.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

P.S. again: here's our sticky on the feeding ecology of wild cockatiels: http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=16205

It says ""Of the birds studied, there were pieces of charcoal in 29 percent of all crops,
mineral items in 13 percent of all crops, plus dense woody material in many of
the crops." Mineral items presumably correspond to grit, eaten for the standard reasons. The charcoal (actually burned wood from wildfires) is more of a mystery; the main theories on that are to absorb toxins or reduce excess digestive acids. But it's the dense woody material that really leaves me scratching my head. What is THAT for? A different type of grinding aid for birds who couldn't find the right kind of rocks? A different type of absorber for unwanted chemicals, where birds who couldn't find burnt wood ate raw wood instead? Both reasons? Something else entirely? 

In any case, it's safe to say that wild cockatiels eat some weird stuff as part of their natural diet. This article says they eat sand to aid digestion. It's not a scientific paper but apparently it's observation-based: http://web.archive.org/web/20090303223840/http://www.birdingmania.com/Cockatiels-In-The-Wild.php


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## Buddy's Mom (Nov 28, 2012)

I was wondering about the minerals as well. I bought my Buddy a cuttlebone that has pink around the border (berry flavor) which is supposed to be minerals, he loves it (even though the first time he ate it his head was pink and I thought he cut himself-he is a white faced so the pink really shows up. should I take it away from him he really loves it.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Cuttlebone and mineral block are fine. They aren't grit and there's no risk of crop impaction with them, so there's no controversy about them.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

I have to go over all Tielfan has posted.

But here is my take on what I understand from what I have read.

All Hook Beaks crack their seeds so do not need any grit in their crops.
It is straight beaks that need grit to grind up the whole seeds the eat and are built to deal with it. Hook beaks are not.
First there are many types of so called grit. Oyster shell grit or for that matter any shell type grit will/ should not cause any problems.
I say this as we do have a case where a parrot has passed away from crop compaction of grit. And the last two owners know this bird has not been fed any grit for the last 8yrs. Yet necropsy has found an amount of grit in the crop. I know it impossible to say where this caused the birds death, but it could of had a certain amount of impact on how much food the crop could hold.

Sand and cement with sharp sand (grit) will cause some sort of problem. Maybe not for many years. But as they never pass this it will sit in their crops forever. Should we worry about this YES!
As for the claim it will erode and then pass I do not think your bird is going to live that number of years it will take grit to erode. once it is in the crop it will stay there. necropsy proves this.
Tielfan is right and wild birds do forage on the ground and inevitably highly likely they will ingest some forms of dirt. Mud, earth, but not much in the way of grit.
I am confident it is a fact that Cockatiels do not need any grit in their diet (unless we are talking about Cuttle Bone, Calcium, or things like Manu Salt Lick blocks, Mineral blocks). Which are not grit. 

Why anyone would consider giving a bird something it does not need, has no benefit and is likely to cause the death of a parrot beats me?


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Buddy's Mom said:


> I was wondering about the minerals as well. I bought my Buddy a cuttlebone that has pink around the border (berry flavor) which is supposed to be minerals, he loves it (even though the first time he ate it his head was pink and I thought he cut himself-he is a white faced so the pink really shows up. should I take it away from him he really loves it.


Some birds have been known to cut their soft parts on the sharp back of the Cuttle Bone. I would not worry about this.
Yes they should have Cuttle Bone available at all times. 
I would be leary of any contaminated Cuttle Bone. Man messing with things like this is not good. I would not use it. Can you not find good clean natural Cuttle Bone?
If you feel the need to give extra minerals research natural foods, like Mung Bean Sprouts. 100% pure natural vitamins, minerals, and trace elements, that the body will do well on.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Tielfan 
The link you posted is out of date. When it claims that birds go there to detox.

It has been since proven that many types of animals go to salt licks all around the world.
This is not to detox from their diet. It is because of a lack of salt in their diet at that time of the year.
Without salt they will and do get sick just like humans that go salt free.
I know many like to call them clay licks as they do not like to say Salt Licks. But in truth that is what they are. Testing of the soils has confirmed these areas are rich in sodium.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

tielfan said:


> P.S. There are some sources that ignore soluble grit and talk about the insoluble kind only. This makes it easier to condemn grit IMO but I don't think it's a realistic definition because it doesn't tell the full story about the way birds use it.
> 
> This article can help provide some perspective: http://www.parrots.org/pdfs/all_abo...n/Minerals and Grit - of Vital Importance.pdf It doesn't consider calcium carbonate to be grit but still thinks it's useful.
> 
> The article quotes from a medical text that defines grit as the insoluble type only and states that birds don't need it. The article does not point out that the text was written by the owner of a pellet company (Harrisons) who prefers for birds to eat a diet of about 80% pellets. It's true that a bird like that doesn't need much help with grinding or supplemental minerals, but lots of us don't feed our cockatiels that way and think that a more varied diet is preferable.


It sounds like soluble grit actually can be beneficial if only fed in small amounts maybe I can feed it in certain ratios with their food. I'm not so convinced insoluble is as important.



tielfan said:


> But it's the dense woody material that really leaves me scratching my head. What is THAT for? A different type of grinding aid for birds who couldn't find the right kind of rocks? A different type of absorber for unwanted chemicals, where birds who couldn't find burnt wood ate raw wood instead? Both reasons? Something else entirely?


It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. They probably swallowed some wood while attempting to build a nest. Cockatiels are known for nesting in hallowed out trees.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> the last two owners know this bird has not been fed any grit for the last 8yrs. Yet necropsy has found an amount of grit in the crop.


The bird probably found its own grit, as birds tend to do when the owner doesn't provide 'authorized' grit. Birds like to eat dirt off the floor when they get the chance, and it's impossible to keep the floor completely spotless. They eat other stuff too and more than one bird has died from eating chunks of pewter figurines and other toxic materials. I've heard of birds getting hurt trying to eat tiny bits of broken glass, which resemble some types of rock like quartz. One of the arguments for providing good-quality grit is that it helps prevent birds from eating dangerous stuff as a grit substitute. They don't have to go scrounging for whatever they can find if they already have a grit source.



> The link you posted is out of date. When it claims that birds go there to detox.


I think you missed the point which is this: "There might be more than one reason for this, such as mineral content." Ms. Low cited the use of clay licks as a possible source of minerals, which turned out to be the real reason birds go there according to our current understanding. Detoxification is not relevant to the grit issue so for the current discussion it doesn't matter whether birds eat clay for that reason or not. It IS relevant if they're eating clay to get minerals.



> But as they never pass this it will sit in their crops forever.


If this was true, many wild birds ought to die of crop impaction at a fairly young age. Grit consumption seems to be a lifelong activity in the wild. 



> I'm not so convinced insoluble is as important.


Neither am I. I might be wrong, but I've always assumed that it takes a while for the soluble type to break down (maybe hours, maybe days), and in the meantime it helps grind up the other food.



> They probably swallowed some wood while attempting to build a nest.


I don't think that's the reason. Birds like to shred wood but they usually don't eat it, in captivity anyway. This seems to be a very striking behavior difference between captive birds and wild birds; captive tiels usually don't eat wood (even when they're 'remodeling' the nest) but it seems to be common in wild cockatiels. I suspect that diet differences might have something to do with it; either the wood helps grind the tougher foods, or it helps to absorb problem chemicals that aren't an issue for pet birds.

Wild macaws feed pieces of wood and bark to babies in the nest. No one is quite sure why, but it must serve some kind of function.
http://www.wildlifeprotection.info/wpf_projects.asp?ID=PRX
http://macawproject.org/download/Subramanian 2011 A parrot diets BIRD TALK.PDF


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Thank you for the replies. As I said I have not had time to read the whole thing on that link. I dropped out as soon as I came to the bit about Detoxing from eating toxic fruits.

All Salt licks are rich in salt compared with the surrounding clay

Mineral lick
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Natural lick)
Jump to: navigation, search
"Salt lick" redirects here. For other uses, see Salt lick (disambiguation).
Gaur at a natural salt lick

A mineral lick (also known as salt lick or natural lick) is a natural mineral deposit where animals in nutrient-poor ecosystems can obtain essential mineral nutrients. In an ecosystem, salt/mineral licks often occur naturally, providing the sodium, calcium, iron, phosphorus and zinc required in the springtime for bone, muscle and other growth in deer and other wildlife, such as moose, elephants, Tapir, cattle, woodchucks, domestic sheep, fox squirrels, mountain goats and porcupines. Harsh weather exposes salty mineral deposits that draw animals from miles away for a taste of needed nutrients. It is thought that certain fauna can detect calcium in salt licks.[1]

Overview

Many animals regularly visit mineral licks to consume clay, supplementing their diet with nutrients and minerals. Some animals require the minerals at these sites not for nutrition, but to ward off the effects of secondary compounds that are included in the arsenal of plant defences against herbivory.[2] The mineral contents of these sites usually contain calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), sulfur (S) phosphorus (P), potassium (K), and sodium (Na).[3][4][5][6] Mineral lick sites play a critical role in the ecology and diversity of organisms that visit these sites, however, little is still understood about the dietary benefits. "The adjectives ‘mineral’ and ‘salt’ bear witness to the common proposition, in the ecological literature, that animals eat soil to satisfy a craving for nutrient minerals, resulting from inadequate forage. However, for wild animals which frequent licks, sodium (Na) is the only mineral identified so far, with strong evidence that an extra supply is indeed needed and sought in some cases."[7]:107 Nonetheless, many studies have identified other uses and nutritional benefits from other micronutrients that exist at these sites, including Selenium (Se), Cobalt (Co) and/or Molybdenum (Mo).[8][9] In addition to the utilization of mineral licks, many animals suffer from traffic collisions as they gather to lick salts accumulated on road surfaces. Animals also consume dirt (geophagy) to obtain minerals, such as Canadian moose mining for minerals from the root wads of fallen trees.[10][11]

Clay is not grit as in sand .
There is no evidence to confer that a parrot get any benefit from feeding them insoluble grit and much more chance it is detrimental to their health. Yes it is possible that some may have small amounts in the crop for the rest of their life. And it maybe highly likely that wild parrots do injest some insoluble grit and as we are very short on wild bird necropsy's it is highly likely they could die a shortened life.
An example would be the number of Black birds that die each year from eating Avocados.
As for the parrot I was talking about, I find it very hard to agree with you about that bird being able to find insoluble grit without the last two owners knowing. these people are bird experts and foster many birds who are vet checked well before they are allowed out to these foster people. Once granular grit is in the crop it will be there forever.
Fine (powered) shell grit (which is not an actual grit) as I think you are calling it is ok and will pass and be absorbed.
Remembering D6 is also needed to metabilise D3 along with sun light.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> As I said I have not had time to read the whole thing on that link. I dropped out as soon as I came to the bit about Detoxing from eating toxic fruits.


So you're arguing against Rosemary Low - a well known aviculturalist/ornithologist/parrot conservationist who has written 25+ books on pet parrots as well as hundreds of articles and scientific papers, without even bothering to find out what she said. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Low



> Clay is not grit as in sand .


Agreed. But it is also not considered to be a food source like seed and vegetables. It is primarily indigestible material that is being eaten for some benefit that it confers, or at least that's what it looks like to us at present.



> There is no evidence to confer that a parrot get any benefit from feeding them insoluble grit and much more chance it is detrimental to their health.


And yet wild cockatiels eat sand according to this site. http://web.archive.org/web/20090303223840/http://www.birdingmania.com/Cockatiels-In-The-Wild.php They eat lots of other weird stuff too according to this study. http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=16205 They found pieces of charcoal in 29 percent of all crops, mineral items in 13 percent of all crops, plus dense woody material in many of the crops. That's a pretty high rate of cockatiel suicide if none of this stuff is going to pass. 



> An example would be the number of Black birds that die each year from eating Avocados.


Avocados are an edible fruit which contains varying amounts of a chemical substance that is toxic to birds. Why do you consider them to be grit? 



> As for the parrot I was talking about, I find it very hard to agree with you about that bird being able to find insoluble grit without the last two owners knowing.


Did they never let the bird out of the cage and also watch the bird every waking moment? There are objects in human homes that can supply grit, for example tile grout, exposed bits of concrete foundation, stone/brick/stucco fireplaces, granite countertops, stone/metal/ceramic knicknacks, chunks of stone-laden mud that fell off someone's boot, etc. There have been a few bird toys designed to sit on the ground that were weighted with sand or metal. Your statements about grit remaining in the crop forever are at odds with what the rest of the world seems to think and also with common sense - the passerines that absolutely require grit manage to pass it through somehow, so why wouldn't psittacines be able to do the same? Please provide some evidence that psittacines can't cope with insoluble grit and once eaten it remains in the crop forever. On the other side of the argument, here's an article by an avian vet saying that a cockatiel passed a large diamond that it had swallowed three weeks earlier. Diamond is one of the hardest substances known to man so it wouldn't have worn down much if any in three weeks time. The bird managed to pass it anyway. http://web.archive.org/web/20100727122208/http://www.petpublishing.com/birdtimes/articles/grit.shtml

I think it's more likely that the bird in question found something it could chew up and swallow when no one was looking, and it overindulged because it was grit-deprived and died from crop impaction and/or toxicity in the material that it ate. It seems unlikely that it would suddenly die of crop impaction 8 years after eating insoluble grit. Crop impaction is a blockage issue and it causes problems immediately. I can't figure out how a crop could be blocked for 8+ years with no issues and then suddenly take a turn for the worse.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

As long as I'm in overkill mode, here's an article by 'natural birdkeeping' guru EB Cravens. He has observed grit-eating behavior in both wild and captive psittacines, and says they eat "soil and sand and small rocks for nutritional and gizzard benefits." http://www.parrots.org/pdfs/all_abo...trition/Views on Mineral Grit for Parrots.pdf

At http://www.parrots.org/index.php/forumsandexperts/answers/ask_an_expert1/ he says "truth is, field studies have shown that psittacines of all kinds do go to the ground and ingest grit for many reasons--they even feed it to the chicks in the nest... certain parrots like cockatiels, lovebirds, princess and other ground foraging species (including cockatoos) will take more grit than eclectus, capes, lorikeets and the like."

Contradicting some of my own previous statements, our pet birds could be eating wood without our knowledge. They do lots of wood-shredding which we can see, but if they also ate a small percentage of the wood we probably wouldn't notice. It's apparently a natural behavior so it doesn't particularly make sense for them to NOT do it in our homes.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

_There are two types of grit: soluble and insoluble. Both types help birds grind up their food, (FOOD GRINDING IN THE GIZZARD ONLY HAPPENS IN THOSE BIRDS THAT SWALLOW HOLE SEEDS) and the soluble kind also dissolves and provides mineral nutrients. Insoluble grit doesn't do this, it just wears down until it's small enough to pass through the digestive tract. (NO SHARP SAND AND A LOT OF HARD GRIT WILL NEVER WEAR DOWN IN THE CROP) Powdered calcium carbonate isn't grit because it's too fine to help with grinding, but chunks of it can legitimately be called grit (NO THIS CANNOT LEGITIMATELY BE CALLED GRIT) IMO._

Parrots don't require grit to help them digest their food, but I suspect that it makes digestion easier, and that's why parrots like to consume both soluble and insoluble grit. The nutritional benefits of some types are also a plus, obviously.

In reference to GRIT I think this needs to be put in order!

I will not disagree with you that some parrots may ingest at times small amounts of hard grit, like hard sand. Where this is ever passed or not is a question that nobody seems to have the answer to. Where this is of any use or not would remain in question. as it has no use to them and to claim it helps grind food up in the gizzard could well be false, it has to get from the crop to the gizzard, and if it was passing down from the crop it would not be a cause of crop compaction. Parrots dehusk all they seeds before ingesting them into the crop where food is stored until it is moved down into the stomach for digesting.
Mineral grit (and I mean soft, so called grit) like egg shells and sea shells are not in any true sense grit, though very often mistakenly called grit by novice people, does break down and is of use to parrots, to the point it is an essential part of their diet. 
To advocate the use of something that has no proven use and is known to likely cause the death of anybody's bird is a little off the mark. 

In reply to Tailfans' comments about the parrot that died and it may have had something to do with crop compaction from intake of insoluble hard grit that may of built up over in the crop for many years. And as we know that it had no access to any known grit for the last 8yrs ofd it's life.. I was a little shocked at the claim. I did put it to the last two owners and they were also shocked at the comments made. 
At no time in their care could this bird of consumed or was seen to of consumed any solid grit, and certainly had no access to the amount that was needed to cause crop compaction.
If it was as Teilfan had said then all our birds that are allowed out of the cage are at very high risk. And I do not think the numbers stack up correctly.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Enough has been said now for everyone to make up their own mind.


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## Lulu-Tiel (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm very confused. I know I am NOT giving it to my cockatiels. Now because everyone has their own opinion, maybe just a yes or no with a short explanation..... would you give it to budgies? The reason I ask is that my parents have two. If the consensus is 'no', I will throw this bag of grit out!!!!


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Its water soluble, it would be okay for any birds really. My previous response was before I knew water soluble grit existed. But it should be given sparingly, maybe only offered once a week like tielfan suggested. If having to control the amount makes you uncomfortable going without it won't hurt them provided they get those same minerals in their food.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Lulu-Tiel said:


> I'm very confused. I know I am NOT giving it to my cockatiels. Now because everyone has their own opinion, maybe just a yes or no with a short explanation..... would you give it to budgies? The reason I ask is that my parents have two. If the consensus is 'no', I will throw this bag of grit out!!!!


I will say NO!
Hook beaks do not need any hard grit, as I explained above.
The internet is full of misleading information. And a lot of information is out of date and needs updating.
There is no sound reason to give any hook beak hard grit.
But I would read the packet and see what they are saying the grit is then Google it.
I say this as I have a packet of seed here that I was given by a owner of a bird that came in for boarding.
It says contains grit. Which turns out to be crushed oyster shell (Not Grit).The term grit is as ambiguous as asking what to feed a parakeet. When there are so many different parakeets in the world.
Example I would not feed a Budgie the same foods as I would feed my Alexandrine, yet they are both called Parakeets.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

clawnz said:


> I will say NO!
> Hook beaks do not need any hard grit, as I explained above.
> The internet is full of misleading information. And a lot of information is out of date and needs updating.
> There is no sound reason to give any hook beak hard grit.
> ...


I agree that water soluble grit probably shouldn't really be called "grit" maybe "digestive aid and supplement"? Regardless how the word grit was used in the past most don't think of supplements when they hear the word. Like other supplements your bird can go without it with adequate nutrition.


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## urbandecayno5 (Oct 24, 2012)

No it isn't necessary I don't see a reason to give them something they don't need


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The same principles apply to all parrots. Budgies have smaller crops than cockatiels so it would take less for them to get impacted.

The word 'grit' has been used for a long time to describe small bits of both soluble and insoluble minerals. It's the size of the chunk that counts, not its chemical properties. Rosemary Low and EB Cravens are recognized aviculture experts who use the word this way and I'm not going to argue with them. If you look up the definition of grit, most dictionaries say particles of sand or stone first but will go on to include other similar-textured items in the definition. Bottom line, soluble minerals are grit. 

The soluble stuff isn't necessarily water-soluble BTW, but if water won't do the job then the digestive acids certainly will. Clearing up some other miscellaneous points, grit does not normally remain in the crop. It passes into the gizzard where it is actually useful, and some sites say that crop impaction can be a misnomer because sometimes it's actually gizzard impaction. 

Here's an oddity for you: a website that recommends giving granite grit to chickens whose crops are impacted with soft material: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/chicken-crop-problems-sour-crop-and-impactions.html Doesn't really apply to parrots of course because chickens need grit to grind up soft foods.

Here's an interesting article on Holistic Bird giving several points of view: http://www.holisticbird.org/pages/dgrit.htm It's kind of hard to tell where one person leaves off and another begins, but if you look carefully you'll see the name at the end of each bit. First off is a negative opinion by Patrick Thrush. His training is in psychology/sociology and his claim to fame in the bird world is as the FS lighting guru. Personally I don't take him too seriously on diet issues since he thinks that birds can use vitamin D2 which is contrary to what the experts think - they say birds use D2 poorly and need D3. The next comment is by Australia's representative to the World Parrot Trust who reports his personal observations with both captive and wild birds and says they do eat grit and problems are rare. Carolyn Swicegood (a proponent of natural foods for birds) takes sort of a middle of the road approach, noting the risks and saying that free choice (unlimited) grit might not be wise, which is something that almost everyone agrees with anyway. Next is a naturopath who mentions the nutritional benefits of silica aka sand. Last of all is someone named Susanne (hmm, I wonder if it's anyone we know) who says her birds like to eat sand and have been doing it for years with no ill effects. She specifically mentions that she has cockatiels in the last paragraph.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm going to post the Australian viewpoint from the Holistic Bird article and hit the high spots in bold for the benefit of readers who are pressed for time. It's the best eyewitness account I've seen so far - both detailed and easy to read, written by a guy with good credentials. His contention that we don't know the consequences of NOT providing grit is something that I've thought for a long time. And I'm intrigued by his hypothesis that American vets might be misdiagnosing other problems as crop impaction because they don't know that wild parrots eat a LOT of grit (up to half of crop volume). From http://www.holisticbird.org/pages/dgrit.htm :

*Almost all Australian parrots have access to grit.* This probably horrifies all you North Americans. But before you get me up before the animal cruelty groups, we NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, see any problems with grit. *My vet, President of the Australian chapter of AAV, has only ever seen two instances of impacted crops in 15 years of practice.

One was a tiel with a crop full of human hair from over preening his owner, and the other a lorikeet which had gone crazy with mango *(understandable) and had a crop full of mango fibres. It is one of the great mysteries of aviculture why North American parrots are apparently so willing to get their crops full of grit and suffer impaction, while Australian birds never get this problem. 

My own theory is that our birds are just more intelligent!<G> I do know that every parrot I have autopsied has had some grit in its gizzard, and I believe that grit does help the bird to more efficiently grind up the seed in the gizzard, thus reducing physiological stress. Also all wild parrots apparently have been found to have some grit in their gizzard, and I don't think they would swallow it if they didn't find it useful. I do acknowledge that grit is not essential, but I do believe it is useful. So, grit is a mystery, even RHH comment on the paradox, and the latest edition of Australia's text on bird health, "Everybird" 1994 edition, still recommends that grit be made available, which we do without problem.

I must start out by emphasizing that my comments refer only to those species of parrots I am personally familiar with, that is the Australian parrots, Lovebirds, and Asiatics. Unfortunately Macaws, Amazons, and many other species of non-Australian parrots are extremely rare here in Australia, and outside my price range to keep.

*I can assure those doubting that wild parrots intentionally consume grit that, from my own observatons, they do deliberately pick up and swallow grit. I have watched flocks of Corellas, Galahs, Major Mitchells, budgies, and other species, deliberately land on sand banks in dry inland river beds and peck away and swallow sand grains. It is a deliberate action on their part.* In addition we all know the incredible ability of parrots to manipulate even very small seeds with their beak and tongue, while husking and then swallowing the seed. Given that ability, it is highly unlikely that a wild parrot would accidentally swallow grit.

*What is surprising is the large amount of grit usually to be found in the gizzard of an autopsied wild parrot.* A Rosella for instance might have up to 50 grains of grit in the gizzard. These range in size from perhaps white French millet size, down to almost microscopic size - presumably reflecting the amount of wear that the grain has undergone. At a recent Parrot Convention held in Grafton that I attended, one talk was by an avian vet, and was a demonstration of how to autopsy a parrot. The "victim" was a road kill Galah, and it's gizzard had a pile of grit in it - almost half filled!

Birds that do not hull their seed such as finches, doves and quail have to have grit to properly digest their seed. Finches will die from starvation if they don't have grit in their gizzard. As for how the practice of giving grit to parrots started, I would think it far more likely that it was as a result of both watching wild parrots and seeing what was in the bird's gizzard when wild parrots were dissected. 

*Actually when an autopsy is done on a seed-eating parrot, it is surprising just how much seed seems to be swallowed unhusked. Some birds might have 20% or more of the seed in their crop which is unhusked, particularly the smaller millets and pannicums.*

Parrots can certainly live their whole lives without grit. The question is whether having a significant amount of grit helps that bird to have a less-stressed (= more efficient) digestive system. I believe that it does. Anything that makes it easier, and more efficient for the bird to grind up the seed before the digestive system gets to work must be a help to the bird.

This idea that a sick bird will gorge on grit is a common one in the USA - all I can say is that I have never, ever, come across such a case. I have never seen an autopsied parrot with a gizzard full of grit and never seen grit at all in the proventriculus. I also find it incredible that a single vet in Florida sees hundreds of grit impaction cases a year, while Australian vets see none! Something is wrong here. *Perhaps with USA vets not having exposure to wild parrot autopsies, they are not used to the large amount of grit that can occur in healthy wild birds. What they are diagnosing as gizzard impaction, to Australian vets might be a healthy and normal grit load for a bird.*

My mention of crop impaction was solely because no case of gizzard impaction was seen, although some of the list stories from the USA do refer to crop impaction due to grit being a problem.

One could get speculative here, so here goes! While parrots can digest their food without grit, perhaps birds have indeed died from "grit deficiency". *Perhaps, as some later replies have alluded to, an absence of grit might lead to a long term digestive system problem due to inefficient absorption of nutrients due to inefficient grinding of seed. Such a deficiency may never show up as a primary cause of early death, but may result in a depressed immune system, and result in a bird having an earlier death than it should have.* One could speculate in all sorts of directions here, but it will remain purely speculation. Even designing an experiment to test that hypothesis is daunting, never mind funding the 20 year lifespan of a project which would involve hundreds of birds!

Some comment has been made about possible compositional differences in the grit provided. I don't believe that is of any relevance. *The grit used by Australians tends to be whatever is handy. As long as it is small (about millet size) then it doesn't seem to matter, if it is quartz, crushed volcanic rock or any other rock. Some use river sand, others beach sand, and others quarry crushings.* My mix - a local river sand sold by landscape yards - is probably about 75% silica, with the rest being a real mixture. As I mentioned previously, *crushed shell grit is useful only as a calcium source, it dissolves too quickly, and is too soft, to be of value in gizzard grinding.*

*While I am happy and relaxed about giving my birds unlimited access to grit, I neither encourage nor discourage anyone else to provide grit. It is a choice that has to be made by each individual, like the choice to feed pellets or seed (or neither!). And, as always, if in doubt - DON'T.*

cheers, Mike Owen Queensland Australian Rep. World Parrot Trust.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Just for funsies I decided to go cruising for scientific papers with observations of wild parrots eating grit or having it in the crop/gizzard. I went through 8 pages of results and found that a nice variety of parrot species are confirmed grit-eaters, plus a variety of papers that mention geophagy (dirt-eating). But there’s not an easy way to prove it. If you go to Google Scholar and search for parrot grit, the results show snippets of text with these words in it. But when you click on the link, most of the time you get an abstract that does not mention the grit, and it’s expensive to view the whole paper. So the only evidence is the text snippet in the list of results, and this process is cumbersome and incomplete. Here’s one abstract that does say the orange-fronted parakeet eats bark, sticks, and grit: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014223.2009.9651470#.UkoutD-RZEB

SOMEBODY PLEASE TELL ME WHAT ALL THE WOOD-EATING IS ABOUT BEFORE I LOSE MY MIND!!

Here’s the most mind-blowing paper though. An experiment showed that feeding grit to budgies was the best way to make metallic foreign objects pass out of the ventriculus (gizzard) and through the digestive tract. Who’da thunk it? http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1647/2007-018.1?journalCode=avms

Edit: What the heck... here are the more relevant text snippets from Google Scholar's results. I haven't listed most of the papers on soil-eating since most sources seem to think that it's not related to food grinding, but I did list one just to show that opinions vary. I also haven't listed anything related to captive birds.

Notes on the diet of the critically endangered *orange–fronted parakeet* (Cyanoramphus malherbi) on Maud Island
L Ortiz–Catedral, DH Brunton - New Zealand Journal of Zoology, 2009 - Taylor & Francis
... *Other parrot species have been reported consuming bark and grit* but the specific function of these in parrots in unclear (Gilardi et al. 1999; Symes & Perrin 2003). Orange-fronted parakeets on Maud Island were noticed mostly foraging solitarily. ... 

Interspecific and locational differences in heavy metal levels in *four species of birds* near Sydney, Australia
J Burger, M Gochfeld - Environmental monitoring and assessment, 1999 - Springer
... *Birds eat grit (particularly the parrot and the dove)*, while other species consume dirt regularly, if inadvertently, while feeding. Inhalation is likely to play only a small role near residential areas, unless emissions become concentrated around some areas. ... 

The *Swift Parrot*.
KA Hindwood, M Sharland - Emu, 1964 - CSIRO
... from leaves), and Fig. 1—Distribution of the Swift Parrot. Page 3. 312 THE EMU Vol. 63, Pt. 4 vegetable matter. *Sand and grit, apparently taken as an aid to digestion,
have also been found in stomachs*. In southern coastal New ... 

[PDF] *Parrot colpa and geophagy behaviour* from the El Gato region of the Tambopata-Candamo Reserved Zone, Amazonia, Peru.
MLA Hammer - biosphere-expeditions.org
... unlikely to be suitable for prolonged and sustainable tourism use. Parrot colpa and geophagy behaviour from the El Gato region of the Tambopata-Candamo Reserved Zone, Amazonia, Peru. ... *There is also evidence that geophagy provides grit* to many ... 

The Diets of *Three Species of Parrots* in the South of Western Australia.
JL Long - Wildlife Research, 1984 - CSIRO
... There was little difference between the diets from year to year, so the data from each month for the 2-year period were combined for each parrot species examined. *Both charcoal and grit, but mainly charcoal, occurred in the gizzards of all three species. ... *

THE AARHUS CONVENTION
G Turtle - Taylor & Francis
... It is now the home of an- other endangered parrot, the *Red-bellied Macaw*, Ara manilat, as well as the West Indian Manatee. ... *The lack of this protein food source may affect other types of food ingested includ- ing grit, which is diet-dependent.* ... 

Another piece in an Australian ornithological puzzle–a second *Night Parrot* is found dead in Queensland
A McDougall, G Porter, M Mostert, R Cupitt, S Cupitt… - Emu, 2009 - CSIRO
... Fig. 1. Map of Queensland showing location of the 2006 and 1990 specimens. A Night Parrot in western Queensland Emu 199 ... X-ray analyses revealed no seed in the bird,s digestive system although *mid-density stones or grit, possibly ironstone, was found in the gizzard *(Fig. ... 

The Food of *Australian Birds* (An Analysis of the Stomach Contents)-Part II
AM Lea, JT Gray - Emu, 1935 - CSIRO
... *A few seeds, sand grit*, (2) Gilles Plains, SA, June (FE Parsons). Bits of spiders, soft vegetable matter, *fine grit*, 307. Neophema elegans—Elegant Parrot. Previous Records:—Seeds (Gould, 2/73). Additional Records:—Seeds (Liliácea;, Gramínea?). Page 6. ...

They're not necessarily talking about parrots in the last one. That's the problem with looking at text snippets - you can't always be sure of what they're really saying. In the paper on the swift parrot, 'The Emu' seems to be the name of the publication, not the bird that they're talking about. The last two papers in this list were also published in The Emu.


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## Lulu-Tiel (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm just going to throw the bag out. I don't want to risk any bird getting impacted from it. Thanks everyone.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

That's the best thing to do if you're not comfortable with it.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

I do not agree with tielfan that our birds are more intelligent than we think. I may risk angering some religious folk here but evolutionarily not every behavior or trait passed to the next generation is always particularly useful. The wood eating or even grit eating could be one of those traits. But, since birds do tend to know what is good for them (most but not all the time) its difficult for me to dismiss grit outright. I may start feeding my own flock some grit and monitor them for changes to see for myself.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> But, since birds do tend to know what is good for them (most but not all the time) its difficult for me to dismiss grit outright.


Not to get into a debate but I'm curious...do you think this because birds have been known to eat things that they shouldn't in captivity? Because with that thinking, its not that the birds aren't intelligent, its that they aren't in their natural environment where they could easily tell what would be OK and not OK to eat. Not knowing that someting unfamiliar is not safe to eat has nothing to do with intelligence. People have been known to eat poisonous berries because they didn't know they were poisonous. Birds eat things because they don't know that they're dangerous to them. Sorry this is so off topic, I was just curious!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Not to get into a debate but I'm curious...do you think this because birds have been known to eat things that they shouldn't in captivity? Because with that thinking, its not that the birds aren't intelligent, its that they aren't in their natural environment where they could easily tell what would be OK and not OK to eat.


It's too late to start a debate honey, it's already been going on for a while. 

Parrots (including cockatiels) eat grit in the wild. This has been observed scientifically as well as by more ordinary people just paying attention to what wild birds do. It's part of their natural behavior, and some people think that eating dangerous objects in the home is the result of refusing to provide a safe outlet for the bird's natural desire to eat grit. For example this avian vet: http://web.archive.org/web/20100727122208/http://www.petpublishing.com/birdtimes/articles/grit.shtml It's also thought that grit-deprived birds who get an opportunity to eat something gritty behind the owner's back are much more likely to eat excessive amounts than birds who have regular access to grit. 

Speaking of avian vets, I came across this rather funny link yesterday: http://www.justanswer.com/pet/0kw0s-cockatiel-breathing-heavily.html Dr Hanson, an avian vet with 30+ years of experience who also bills himself as an ornithologist and aviculturalist, makes overconfident assertions about things that haven't been proven - no one actually knows why wild cockatiels eat charcoal, just that they do it, nor does everyone agree that grit is essential. Then Patricia, a bird behaviorist (not a diet-related field obviously) tries to overcome the assertions of a vet with a PhD by linking an article on Winged Wisdom written by a person with unknown credentials. It's overkill on both sides, although it does look like Dr Hanson knows a lot more about the physiology of grit eating than Patricia does.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I PM'd Susanne (aka srtiels) to ask if she wrote this bit from the Holistic Bird article at http://www.holisticbird.org/pages/dgrit.htm :



> Carole, Thanks for the info. on silica. I did not even think of sand as being a source of anything  So I will have to do some reading. I have been sprinkling it in the flights but it was more to keep the poop from sticking to the concrete...or the steel floor in one flight. Aside from that quite a bit always gets blown in and they're down there pecking at it. The breeding cages also wind up with sand in food and water in small amounts daily. When I empty the water there is always a little grittiness to the bottom. So nature has obviously been taking care of the birds needs
> 
> Today I spent a lot of time in and out of the back door which resulted in tracking in quite a bit of sand. The house birds all have babies right now including a new hatch today...which in watching them they randomly picked at the sand. I let a few of the parent birds that are in the dining room flight and they went foraging in the sand build-up. They've been doing this for years with no ill effects to the babies or themselves...I just never thought about it before.


She confirmed that it was her, that she was talking about her cockatiels not some other species, and she added that the local sand (in Florida) also contained salt from the atmosphere. For those who are new here, Susanne/srtiels is a VERY experienced cockatiel breeder who has raised thousands of babies. She's the biggest expert on breeding/mutation issues that we've ever had on the forum, as well as possessing a formidable amount of knowledge on health and diet issues. On this forum she's generally regarded as being about a half step below a goddess, and we really miss having her here.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

roxy culver said:


> Not to get into a debate but I'm curious...do you think this because birds have been known to eat things that they shouldn't in captivity? Because with that thinking, its not that the birds aren't intelligent, its that they aren't in their natural environment where they could easily tell what would be OK and not OK to eat. Not knowing that someting unfamiliar is not safe to eat has nothing to do with intelligence. People have been known to eat poisonous berries because they didn't know they were poisonous. Birds eat things because they don't know that they're dangerous to them. Sorry this is so off topic, I was just curious!


Maybe intelligent was the wrong word. The idea was that the birds instinctively know what is and is not bad for them. I don't believe they always do which fits into your poison berries example perfectly. But, if all of the birds are eating this thing (grit) but the public calls it poison how are we supposed to test that hypothesis other than try feeding it to them ourselves? I do not see wild birds dropping dead from eating it, this appeals to my common sense.

Your idea of "natural environment" is a little shortsighted. There is no environment they live in that hasn't been polluted or altered by mankind.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Sorry for all the posts guys, but this is how I learn things. I talk to people and do research and think about how everything fits with the real world, and then I post it to see what everyone else has to say.

I've been thinking about the mechanics of grit retention. I had always assumed that grit remained in the gizzard because of its size until it was ground down to a size that could pass through. But this is obviously not always true, and maybe it's never true. We know that cockatiels can pass intact millet seeds all the way through their digestive tract - sick birds do it frequently. But Mike Owen in the Holistic Bird article reports that larger parrots have grit in their gizzards ranging in size from millet size to almost microscopic. So there must be some physical mechanism that's acting to keep the grit in the crop, so the bird doesn't have to eat a fresh load of grit to go with every meal. 

I didn't find any parrot-specific information, but I did find this information on chickens at http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/323044/how-long-does-grit-last-in-a-crop : 


> The grit gets trapped in the folds of muscle inside the gizzard, and as food (grain) works it's way into the gizzard from the crop, it is ground up into a form that the chicken's intestines can break down further and digest... If there is not enough grit, the particles of food can become trapped in the folds of the gizzard instead of the grit, and when it spoils it causes problems.


What's true for chickens isn't necessarily true for parrots of course, but this sounds like a reasonable explanation. I also found this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gizzard :



> gizzard stones or gastroliths and are usually round and smooth from the polishing action in the animal's stomach. When too smooth to do their required work, they may be passed or regurgitated.


So it appears that grit-eating birds have physical mechanisms to retain useful grit and also to get rid of it when it is no longer useful. I would guess that sometimes the smaller pieces of grit get lost by being dislodged and passed through the digestive tract, and this is one reason that birds seem to restock their grit supply pretty regularly.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> But, if all of the birds are eating this thing (grit) but the public calls it poison how are we supposed to test that hypothesis other than try feeding it to them ourselves?


I don't think the public is well-informed on this issue. Grit really can cause problems under certain circumstances so someone started a bandwagon rolling that called for the elimination of all grit, and the public jumped on it without considering the birds' natural history and the ramifications of this policy. It would be a mistake to test it by feeding to ourselves though. Our birds are evolved to eat grit; we aren't, and I don't imagine that it would be very good for our digestive tract.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Oops, I misunderstood your post. You said "feed it to them ourselves" not "feed it to ourselves".

I've posted numerous links to scientific studies on the natural diet of birds and also the observations of aviculturalists who do feed grit to their birds and report that they're thriving. I even have a quote from srtiels saying that her cockatiels have been eating sand for years with no ill effects to them or their babies. So there are useful precedents available, and people who offer grit to their bird aren't blindly gambling with the bird's health. You do have to use common sense and caution of course, especially with a bird who's been grit-deprived for years.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I think I'm going to try it out. See how my birds react. Carolyn, you said you use the stuff in the OP's link in the first post?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Yes, it's the Higgins Snack Attack mineral grit. I didn't go on a quest to find the world's best grit though, it just happened to be the best-looking brand on the shelf at Petsmart. There may be other brands that are equally good or even better. Don't expect any dramatic results, I think that any benefits will be subtle. Your birds might be enthusiastic about it or they might not be interested at all - some birds like it more than others.

This is a good time to mention that I'm not out to convert people to grit usage. I'm just annoyed by the simplistic uninformed "just say no" mentality that pervades the internet. I'm a big fan of education and thinking, and I want people to know that there's more to this issue than "it's dangerous, don't give it to them". Yes there are potential risks from offering grit but there are also potential benefits, as well as potential risks from NOT offering grit. Possibly reducing your bird's digestive efficiency and possibly giving it an appetite for any kind of gritty crap it can get its beak on are rather obvious risks. Plus we don't know all the reasons that birds eat weird stuff in the wild, so we don't know how much they lose when we don't let them do it. 

If people read this discussion and don't want to offer grit because it makes them nervous, that's a perfectly good reason to not offer it. I'm just glad that they took the time to consider the issue.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This next bit is rather delicate. I don't want to upset anyone, but in the interest of education I think it needs to be said. I went looking for information about the claim that grit never leaves the crop. I wanted to see how widespread this idea was and what kind of substantiation was being offered for it. I found nothing about it anywhere, although it's the kind of subject that's surprisingly hard to research so keep that in mind. So unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that this idea is one person's hypothesis on how a bird could die with grit in the crop that the owners knew nothing about. And I recommend that if anyone wants to discuss this idea elsewhere, that they present it as someone's opinion and not as an established fact. All the evidence that I've seen points in the other direction, and it's easier to start internet rumors than it is to stop them.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I have a little hypothesis of my own that I decided to test. I come from the era when offering grit was something that every good bird owner was supposed to do, and I wondered when that changed and why. Specifically, I wondered if the Ritchie Harrison medical text published in 1994 had anything to do with it. And you know what, I think it might be true. The index for this book is available online at http://web.archive.org/web/20120208214517/http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/avmed/ampa.html and the comments on grit are at http://web.archive.org/web/20101214160120/http://www.avianmedicine.net/ampa/3.pdf at the bottom of page 15. It isn't precisely anti-grit, but it does say it's unnecessary and risky, and provides little benefit.

The book does NOT point out that this chapter was written by a Kaytee employee and that one of the book's primary authors owns a pellet company. These people want you to feed your bird an 80% pellet diet (although this percentage isn't specified in the medical text as far as I know). They don't mention that a bird who eats a lot of natural foods might have different needs than a bird who mostly eats high-nutrition mush (pellets get soft when they're wet).

I have a collection of about 20 old cockatiel books, most of them published in the late 1970s through the year 2000. I looked at all of them to see what they said about grit. Every single one of them was pro-grit, except for a couple that didn't mention grit at all. Some of the more recent books were European publications; I don't know how much of a difference that makes. I also have a 2007 book that's pro-grit, but it's an Australian publication so it doesn't really count lol - it's obviously influenced by the local culture not US anti-grit hysteria.

But as late as 1999, there were US publications that hadn't jumped on the anti-grit bandwagon yet. Here's a quote from the 1999 edition of The Cockatiel Handbook by Matthew Vriends. He is Dutch-born but lives in New York and has a PhD in zoology. He talks about the need for various kinds of minerals and sources for them including seashell grit, then says:


> A good grit mixture is absolutely essential for cockatiels. Insoluble grit assists the gizzard muscles in the grinding of food, such as seed. There are various grit mixtures available. Sea sand and ground granite are insoluble in the stomach and act as grindstones until they are worn small enough to be passed through the system. (Soluble grit, including oyster shells, cuttlebone, and sterilized eggshells are quickly assimilated into the bird's body.)


I don't know what newer US-published books say but it seems likely that they're anti-grit. BTW there was one rather amusing book from 1982 that said wild cockatiels were at risk for becoming road kill because they frequently fly onto the road to pick up bits of gravel. 

So here's my personal speculation. The Ritchie Harrison medical text was published right around the time the internet became popular. So besides having an influence on new vets, the pellet company view of the situation was in an excellent position to spread rapidly through the bird-owning population as soon as a few well-meaning people picked up on it and took for granted that it was right. A recently published medical book would be seen as the most up to date thinking on the issue, so offering grit got tossed on the trash heap along with other older practices that really were bad, like the all-seed diet.

BTW I still don't know who made the determination that parrots don't need grit. I haven't been able to find any studies comparing the risks and benefits of offering grit versus not offering grit, and the Ritchie Harrison text doesn't say where they got their information or why they believe it's true.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Quote "_BTW I still don't know who made the determination that parrots don't need grit. I haven't been able to find any studies comparing the risks and benefits of offering grit versus not offering grit, and the Ritchie Harrison text doesn't say where they got their information or why they believe it's true_."

I think it maybe the thousands of Parrot owners who have had many years of experience. 
Would not having great conditioned Cockatiels that are not fed Hard grit, be some sort of influence? And how much longer they are living. For me it speaks volumes.
And with my flock most have been rescues or adoptions.
A 32yrs old Cockatiel was unheard of not so many years ago. yet I know a few that are now in their late twenties, with the oldest now 32yr old. Funny as it may seem, as far as I know it has never been fed any grit or pellets. 
The life expectancy was said to be 12 to 15yrs. Now that we know how to care for them this has been blown out of the water.
It was not that long ago we were told pellets were what all our birds need to be healthy. Well that has gone out the window as well. Now that we are finding at least with Budgies and Cockatiels fed on 100% pellets can suffer from some health issues. 
And in time this will trickle down in the other species.

How would I feel if I told someone it was ok to feed hard grit and then years down the track it died from crop compaction? So you are not going to hear me say 'Yes it is OK'.
When I promote something I like to know I am talking somewhere close to the truth.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Considering that 20 years ago the idea that grit was dangerous for parrots didn't seem to exist and on the contrary it was believed that grit was essential (as evidenced by the 15+ cockatiel care books that I inspected today), I would be interested in knowing who located these thousands of parrot owners who defied the 'expert' advice of the time, collected data, and verified that it really was the grit that was killing off birds and not the unbalanced diets that prevailed at the time.



> A 32yrs old Cockatiel was unheard of not so many years ago. yet I know a few that are now in their late twenties, with the oldest now 32yr old. Funny as it may seem, as far as I know it has never been fed any grit or pellets.


Do you have evidence of a cause and effect relationship, or evidence that birds who do eat grit and/or pellets never live to this age? Why do you think that individual genetics and/or improved natural-food diets are not responsible for any increase in longevity? Do you think that maybe no one knew about 32 year old cockatiels in the past because both avian medicine and the internet were non-existent not so many years ago, so it wasn't possible to hear about the experience of thousands of other bird owners?



> How would I feel if I told someone it was ok to feed hard grit and then years down the track it died from crop compaction? So you are not going to hear me say 'Yes it is OK'.


I haven't asked you to do that. Everyone has to do what they feel is right whether I agree with it or not. But it would be nice if you would stop stop acting like statements for which you have zero objective evidence are hard cold facts. I don't know how many links, references, and logical analyses I've provided in this thread - it's a lot anyway. I haven't seen you provide anything here but unsupported statements contradicting the observations of people who have much better credentials than you do. I'm not saying that the experts are always right, but if you want to convince people that they might be wrong then you have to bring some serious evidence to the table. 

I think I need to stop replying to you unless you start providing evidence for your position, because what we're doing right now is annoying to both of us. I've already provided a link to the Ritchie Harrison text that might be the root cause of the current anti-grit sentiment, and discussed the possible objectivity issues and lack of supporting evidence. If there's anything else out there I'd be happy to see it. 

If you look at the references on the last page of the Ritchie Harrison nutrition chapter, there is a single paper called 'The use of grit in psittacine and passerine diets' that probably is the basis for the statements in the chapter. It was sponsored by Kaytee and is apparently an internal Kaytee document that has never been published any place where it could be evaluated by peers in the avian medicine and nutrition community, or by anyone else for that matter. The same is true of the following 8 papers, although they are not grit-related. This is a screaming red flag for anyone who knows how the scientific community works, and the importance of peer review and publication in venues with quality standards. It looks like the remaining references were published in respectable journals and professional conferences.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

OMFG... I'm going to say it one more time just because it's so mind-blowing. It looks like the passionate anti-grit sentiment that prevails on the internet might have originated from a private document belonging to the Kaytee corporation. Kaytee, a company that doesn't have a great reputation for quality with any of its food products.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I appreciate your well-thought out opinion and hard-evidence, Carolyn. You didn't exactly "convert" me..I've thought about offering grit for a while, but never saw anything that looked good to buy on the shelves...or wasn't a brand I trusted or wanted to support.

My birds will ultimately decide whether they like grit or not. But, from what I've observed, it seems like they might jump at the opportunity. I've recently bought a Birds On The Rocks perch and all my flock takes turn chewing on it.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

They do sound like good candidates who know what they want. I'd forgotten about Birds on the Rocks perches - they're flat perches made of flagstone. I'm pretty sure this counts as insoluble grit, so my suggestion would be that any other grit would be small amounts of soluble grit only. Hopefully they're not getting too much off the flagstone, but if they start making serious inroads on it I'd take it away for a while. 

My very first cockatiel 25 years ago got hormonal and started laying eggs, and started chipping pieces off the stone fireplace. Back then I didn't know about the various types of grit or what to do about the egg laying, so I didn't think too much about it. I don't know whether she got the minerals she was seeking (she did have a cuttlebone for calcium), but she didn't suffer any harm from munching on rocks. When she died 9 years later it was from a tumor, and I think she probably had liver disease too. She had been to an avian vet but the local vets weren't the greatest back then.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Clawnz, you stated that an all pellet diet is bad for cockatiel's health and ther have been indications all seed diets can also be harmful. But we still feed our birds these foods because they aren't all bad its just moderation that's important. Would you be willing to admit that maybe grit used in moderation could possibly be beneficial in the same way?


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## Vickitiel (Oct 10, 2012)

This is all so baffling to me... but I agree with Darkel777's point.

I don't feed my 'tiels grit purely because there's so much conflicting information about it that I just can't make up my mind.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

CharVicki said:


> This is all so baffling to me... but I agree with Darkel777's point.
> 
> I don't feed my 'tiels grit purely because there's so much conflicting information about it that I just can't make up my mind.


It isn't anything tielfan wasn't already saying. I just thought framing it in that way would be more concise and direct.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Darkel777 said:


> _Clawnz, you stated that an all pellet diet is bad for Cockatiel's health and there have been indications all seed diets can also be harmful. But we still feed our birds these foods because they aren't all bad its just moderation that's important. Would you be willing to admit that maybe grit used in moderation could possibly be beneficial in the same way_?


I would agree with the fact that it is always possible that birds in the wild may ingest some sorts of what Tielfan is terming as grit. Where it is grit or not is still up for debate. Define what this grit is! Simple.
As for it being beneficial. Sorry this is still up for debate. And as far as I can find they are doing just fine without any added grit.
As for an all seed diet being bad for a Cockatiel.
I will say this a 100% pellet diet will be more harmful than an all seed diet for a Cockatiel.
Cockatiels are seed eaters and this is one reason they are not so prone to vitamin A deficiency.
I am not trying to say either should be an excepted way to feed them.


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## clawnz (May 28, 2009)

Teilfan One of the main reasons I cannot agree with a number of your arguments is that as I keep trying to get across to you! PLEASE DEFINE what you are calling grit
There is no grit in sea shells. I am not sure what dictionary you refer to that claims grit is defined by it's size. So anything of a certain size is grit? Not in my books I have looked at. Sand or other hard substance like quartz, Granite, Garnet is grit, dirt and soft minerals like sea shells egg shells are not grit in English, maybe they are in American language. 

I am going to reply to your other remarks. As this is not the place for it.
I am willing to take it up by email or PM with you though.


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## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

We are in agreement that soluble grit perhaps should not be called grit. But the world does not cater to you or even me, it is grit because everybody else says it is. And I think time can be better spent on other things than arguing over a definition.


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## cknauf (Aug 27, 2012)

clawnz said:


> Teilfan One of the main reasons I cannot agree with a number of your arguments is that as I keep trying to get across to you! PLEASE DEFINE what you are calling grit
> There is no grit in sea shells. I am not sure what dictionary you refer to that claims grit is defined by it's size. So anything of a certain size is grit? Not in my books I have looked at. Sand or other hard substance like quartz, Granite, Garnet is grit, dirt and soft minerals like sea shells egg shells are not grit in English, maybe they are in American language.


Grit has a specific definition when speaking about birds that differs from the dictionary definition.

Insoluble grit is tiny pieces of rock that cannot be digested, although it's possible that some minerals are absorbed from them.

Soluble grit is ground shells and other digestible items, like calcium carbonate (limestone, aka what Tums are made of).


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

What cknauf said. We have already discussed the definition of grit, and the fact that there is a narrow definition and a broader definition. I have already posted excerpts/links from several scientific papers and other sources stating that parrots have been observed consuming grit or with grit in their crops. It frequently wasn't possible to determine which definition they were using, but this much is certain: either a lot of people with PhDs in biology/zoology/ornithology are using the broader definition (meaning that the most knowledgeable people in the field consider it to be legitimate), or there are a lot of wild parrots snacking freely on insoluble grit. Or both; they aren't mutually exclusive. As posted earlier, Matthew Vriends PhD was unequivocally in favor of offering insoluble grit to cockatiels as of 1999. 

As also posted earlier, it looks like the idea that parrots shouldn't be offered grit may have originated with the Kaytee company, and this idea made its way into a popular medical text in a chapter written by a Kaytee employee. So it's not too surprising that avian vets and the unwashed masses have adopted the idea, but people with advanced degrees in biological science apparently have not.


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I don't think my birds are actually chipping anything off the BOTR perches, but I think they like to feel the texture more than anything. In any case, it is keeping their beaks duller and they are enjoying it. I don't think I would count it as grit since they're not actually taking anything in as far as I can tell, but it definitely seems to hold their interest.

I agree though, if they began taking a lot off then I would remove it periodically.

As far as the rest of the discussion goes, I think someone here just can't stand to be wrong.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Hey, I provided evidence for everything I said!


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## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Geez Carolyn, can't you just give it up!


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