# Emptying Crop



## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I am getting very confused on something. I was always told (by breeders and others with experience) that a baby's crop has to empty completely at least once in a 24 hour period, preferable to have a completely empty crop first thing in the morning. I see more and more about the crop being empty before it's being fed at EACH feeding. At this rate, the babies are not getting fed the amount they should be in the time they need to be. I understand the possible problems of creating sour crop, but sour crop can be seen should it happen and measures be taken to cure it. I guess I just don't agree with not feeding them ever until their crop is emtpy. I have not had many chicks, but I have kept to my schedules and fed them even if there was a little left in their crop. Am I the only one who feels this way or can someone educate me differently??


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

I would love to know the answer to this too. I had just read the same thing, make sure the crop empty's completely at least in a 24 hour period. I just posted pictures(in a previous thread) of what's left after 5 hours and waited 7 hours prior to that to let the crop empty. At 10 days old at this rate he's going to starve. This is my first time, just want to do the best for my little guy!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

At one time I was a professional breeder and had 800 cockatiels, and was handfeeding 100 or more babies daily. In that time I learned what works and what doesn't. When feeding that many babies daily it is very hard to pay attention to each individual baby to stay ahead of problems. With tiel babies one of the main problems encountered with handfeeding babies was potential slow/sour crop and excellent weight at weaning.

Like many others I read that the crop should fully empty once every 24 hours. All fine and dandy if you are doing 1 or two babies...but I learned that sure the crop may empty overnight, but problems can occur anytime, and a handfeeder needs to be observant. I learned it is not OK to add food on top of the little bit left in the crop between the daily feedings because that small amount of food may contain enough bacteria that once digested starts the balling rolling towards a crop slowdown that may take up to the next feeding or a full 24-36 hours to realize that there is a problem. In allowing the crop to empty between each feeding the risks of this happening are reduced up to 95%....the remaining 5% is a result of environment (heat) and amount of formula fed that can work positively or negatively to good weight gain.

From this I learned that less is more when feeding. While other breeders were thrilled to have babies wean out at 80-90 grams my babies were weaning out at 125 grams or more from pet quality parents. Where everyone else was under the belief that the more you fed per feeding (which the average was 10cc on a fully feathered baby) the healthier and larger the baby was. I found the opposite was true. The MAX I would feed (I pulled at 3 to 3.5 weeks old) is 8cc at the night and morning feedings and 6cc the lunch feeding. I noticed in doing this the muscles felt firmer and well developed, whereas when I was feeding more the muscles were softer, and as the bird approached weaning weight it lost weight due to the water density from the excess feeding. So in reality I was feeding less than 10% to the babies I was handfeeding with excellent results. In feeding more than this the baby may still be digesting fine, but the body was working against it by concentrating on digesting rather than growth. And the larger the crop was with food the more energy the baby had to use to keep the crop contents warm.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Thanks for the response Srtiels!!  First, I can't even begin to imagine feeding 100 babies on a daily basis.  Exhaustion and insanity are the first two things that come to mind. lol I can certainly understand the aspect of feeding babies with empty crops when you have that many to take care of. I can be a statistical person at times and so I'm curious as to what your chick mortality rate was? I still just cannot wrap my mind around 100 babies to feed. lol I can also understand the explanation of the body working less on digestion and more on growth. That completely makes sense. I can have a thick mind at times so I'm still having a little battle with the idea of every feeding. This is the scenario I keep thinking of. You have a 3 week old chick say weighing 70 grams. This little guy based on all the charts should be being fed 7 mls every 6 hours or so for an average of say 21 mls per day. If baby's crop doesn't empty until 9 hours.. baby is now only being fed twice a day and only getting 14 mls. Even with the body working less at digestion.. how can this possibly be enough for the baby to gain and make progress? Do you see where my mind gets bogged on this one? I am not arguing with you in any means. I respect your advice and opinions.  Just looking for some justification in under-feeding when there is not a medical issue at the time.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* I can be a statistical person at times and so I'm curious as to what your chick mortality rate was?*
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My chick mortality rate was 3%....which encompasses from the egg to weaning. My 3% consisted of mainly trapped in shell chicks. As to handfeeding the loss was 1% or less depending on how observant I was to formula temps, amounts, housing etc.

*Just looking for some justification in under-feeding when there is not a medical issue at the time*.

I found that overfeeding amounted to a softer feel to muscle tone and density. I had asked my vet about this and he said that the body was retaining more fluids, and was not as efficient in nutrient absorption in the gut because the body was working constantly to digest and move the food out. With underfeeding the body was storing less fluids and it did not have to work as hard to move food thru the GI tract, thus the food travel slower with better nutrient absorption.

When I handfed I always keep the babies in groups of 6 from the time they were pulled til they were weaned.

When breeding my least favorite bird was lutino....but the public liked lutino, so I worked with my pieds for several years until I developed nice full bodied clear pieds....which averaged in weight of 110-150 grams each.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Those are some really low mortality rates. Sounds like you really did an awesome job with them! I was just reading up more on why crops empty slowly and there are so many reasons that should be investigated and I'm sure you know them, but I'll post them in case someone else might want to see them.

Formula too thick or too cold
Brooder too cold
Over-feeding
Stretched crop from over-feeding
Bacterial/Fungal/Parasitic infections
Congenital disorder
Chick too hot
Chick dehydrated
Foreign body impaction
Sour crop 

It is my understanding that if there are none of these circumstances then the chick's crop should be emptying properly and right along with the suggested times/amounts. Do you agree on this? And if little one needs longer to empty his/her crop then there are other issues that need to get rectified or else it will continually happen? Basically, it shouldn't just be .. a wait longer to feed idealism because the problem is not getting fixed, right? Am I over-thinking things again? lol


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* Basically, it shouldn't just be .. a wait longer to feed idealism because the problem is not getting fixed, right? Am I over-thinking things again? lol*
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That's where handfeeders gets into trouble, with the wait and see if there is a real problem. By allowing to empty between each feeding a handfeeder has a heads up that something is wrong if the baby does not empty as it had in the past. Then having a list you listed as a rule out of possible causes they can do a rule out to correct the problem.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

This is awesome info. Thanks Srtiels.  I believe my inquisitive mind is settled on this aspect now. I really enjoy learning whatever I can about these little guys and this is a wonderful place to do it.


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

OK, so I think I understand all your saying. My 11 day old chick that I have been feeding that I am on my 3rd day of feeding definitely has a slow crop. We have gained 2 grams as of this morning 24-26 grams feeding 2 cc. at a feeding but after 5 hours still some remaining. Crop was empty this morning but took from 9pm last night till 7am this morning.
I started your herbal remedy yesterday, added a little applesauce this morning and added plain yogurt on the noon feeding. No sign of dehydration. Pooping regularly, very top of crop so thin it is see through (don't know if that is normal.
Is this a situation that you are saying I shouldn't wait and see or am I OK trying these first steps?


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well how is the temp of the brooder? Does your chick seem too hot or too cold? What is the temp and consistency of the formula? Everything you are doing is for the possibility of sour crop, correct? So I guess based on Srtiels conversation with me.. also rule out the others. The easier fixed stuff being the questions I just asked. I'm sure though, that if it is sour crop, the remedy and actions you are taking would take a little more time to see progress I think. I could be wrong about this. He's gaining weight though! This is a good thing!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

What I would do is reduce the amount feeding, and feed on demand as the baby empties. This will give you an idea of how long it is taking for XX amount of food to digest.

Is to the crop skin it is thin and should be semi-transparent so that you can see the contents. When the skin thickens and gets a whitish or opaque look it could be an indication of yeast budding on the inside walls of the crop. 

The crop is 2 skin layers thick....think of a balloon inside a balloon. If yeast builds up in the crop it initially affects the inside layer. It can easily be corrected by simply changing the pH in the crop with a drop of vinegar per feeding. But if not corrected and it affect the external skin it is noticed by prominent red veins on the surface of the crop. When this is seen the yeast has turned pathogenic and is being absorbed into the blood stream. In this situations it takes antifungals to help correct the problem.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Are you sure you're not a Certified Avian Vet Srtiels?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

LOL....I studied Avian Medicine for several years but really too old (60) to finish training. Plus with the amount of birds I had they taught me more than any books could do.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well I for one am thankful for the fountain of knowledge you provide to this forum. And as I've mentioned before, please don't ever think I'm being antagonistic with my typing or tone as that is not my intention. Now I'm going to go rack my brain and see what other off the wall question I can antagonize you with.


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

The brooder is between 85 & 90 degrees. I thing I might not be able to rule out is that the formula wasn't warm enough. I was using a 1 cc pipette until the last feeding and I know as I refilled it the temp. was lowering. I also couldn't fill it all the way so I might have gone back and forth 3-4 times. Switched to a syringe last time and it worked great.
What also worries me, is the reason I pulled the baby is the parents might have been fighting a bacterial infection because they weren't digesting seed and passing the seed to the baby. I'm wondering if the baby could have gotten the "bug". Vet told me to watch for weight gain, nothing about slow crop. If the parents can overfeed, the crop at times were bigger than it's head otherwise, I don't think I have.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

You will see seed in the baby's crop when parents feed it. This is not a bad thing. Is this the only reason you think your mom and dad were sick?


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks srteils, OK thin is good! You are a wealth of knowledge and I'm eating it up  Should I keep adding the yogurt, etc.?


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

Opps, sorry. The parents and baby were pooping seed.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yes....I would add the yogurt and Spice mix for a couple more days. back off from the applesause because it pulls fluids out of the body thru the GI tract.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK....the parents passing seed does not mean that the baby had a problem or needed to be pulled. many times the passing of seed could be from an imbalance of intestinal flora due to the stress of feeding the babies. many times the use of probiotics or acidolpholis (sp) on the parents food or water can correct this within a day or so.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well this is good news! Now you don't have to worry so much about mom and dad being sick Tuni.


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes, he said it was not an issue for the parents. The problem was the baby was passing seed and nothing else. Vet said that was NG. My concern is, was the baby passing seed an indication that it was sick? It does look good, growing pin feathers, etc.


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes that is good news about mom & dad, thanks They are now screaming non stop and I think its for the baby. I also pulled 3 dis eggs at the same time and I think that might have been a mistake. I feel horrible. Can birds really feel loss?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

As to the parents...were they good feeders? You might consider giving them to probiotics and giving the baby back for them to feed.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I was wondering about that Srtiels.. wasn't sure if they would just start back up feeding the baby.


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## tuni324 (Aug 1, 2010)

They were great feeders. At this point baby's 11 days old. If I was supposed to pull in 3 days and I need to give probiotics, how many days before I can give back to parents? Does it talk a little while before results kick in?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I would leave it in with the parents til it was 3 weeks old. For the first day you can watch to make sure they are feeding it. IF it looks like the babies drop is packed hard and tight you can mix up a little formula with yogurt to a thinner consistency and assist feed the baby in the nest. After you feed massage the crop to mix the handfed fluids with the crop contents.


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## bettyaustin2 (Sep 28, 2021)

tuni324 said:


> I would love to know the answer to this too. I had just read the same thing, make sure the crop empty's completely at least in a 24 hour period. I just posted pictures(in a previous thread) of what's left after 5 hours and waited 7 hours prior to that to let the crop empty. At 10 days old at this rate he's going to starve. This is my first time, just want to do the best for my little guy!


I would love to see a pic of an empty crop. I have an 8 day cockatiel and it has a flabby area at the bottom of its neck so i dont know if that is considered the crop and if its empty.


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