# Weight Concerns



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo came to me around 90 g. She got as low as 82 in the week following, at which point she was diagnosed with a respiratory infection and given a course of Baytril. Her weight stabilized at around 83g and she was declared healthy. 

Fast forward a month to two weeks ago. I weighed her on Friday 9/16 in the morning like I usually do. She was down to 81. We had a vet recheck that day anyway, and he was unconcerned about the loss. He attributed it to a lower fat diet and my giving her longer nights, since she had previously been a big night time eater. 

I worried anyway. Last Friday I weighed her as usual, and she was still 81. This morning on a whim I weighed her again, and she was down to 80. Would you guys be concerned? Her keel is more prominent than it should be optimally, but it isn't horrible. The vet thought her body condition was pretty good, possibly a little stunted from growing up malnourished. 

I just can't figure out why she isn't gaining weight with me. She's active, happy, plays all day and eats a ton as far as I can tell. Her diet is a very good seed mix, supplemented with veggies, pasta, and rice. She is also offered pellets, but doesn't much touch them. What are my next steps here? She seems perfectly fine, although she is molting. Could that cause a few grams of weight loss? 

The only other oddity is that she no longer is very interested in millet. She never really loved it, but now it just sits in her cage ignored. She's eating everything else, though, so I'm not sure if this is significant. 

If anyone can help, I'd really appreciate it. This is making me crazy worrying.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* He attributed it to a lower fat diet and my giving her longer nights, since she had previously been a big night time eater. *

The above is why she is losing weight. Tiels will eat to pack their crop with food to digest and give them energy as they sleep during the night. By depriving her of this ability she can very slowly stress and get sick. A tiel *NEEDS* some fat in their diet. If there is not fat then they have a *very reduced* resistance to secondary stress related problem. One of the main goals of fat stores in the body is to act as body reserves, which also contain some vitamins that the body can draw from in times of stress. if the fat stores are not in the body them the body draws from muscles and the tiel can radidly lose weight....


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

So what should I be giving her? Before I adopted her she was given millet and nothing else. Now she won't touch the millet.

ETA and are you saying I should stop giving her 12 hours of sleep? We started it because she was getting hormonal. I feel like it would probably be a disaster for her to lay eggs when shes already underweight.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I feel like I am following the vet's advice and the forum's advice but still inadvertently hurting my bird. She acts a hundred times happier and healthier, but she weighs less than when she was first rescued. What do I do? Please help me.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

keep up with the 12 hours.
give her more food in the evening and more fattening food  so pasta is good, give that to her more and a bit more of the very fatty but good foods... sunflower seeds and safflower are very good if she likes them! they ARE good food for tiels and their diet should not eliminate sunflower seeds...


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She has sunflower seeds in her mix. Should I give her extra, do you think? And would you be concerned enough by this for another vet visit, or shouldni give her a bit longer to adjust to the new routine? She's only been on the longer nights for 2 weeks, and she also got a new food dish a couple days ago because her old one broke. I dunno if that would account for the new loss this week. Shes using the dish, but possibly not as much? I can't tell.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

give it 5 more days... if you notice a significant drop in her weight, go to the vets. add a bit more sunflower seeds and maybe feed her in the evening instead of morning?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I could do that, although she has food available all day. So you're saying I should give her the new food in the evening? I can definitely give her the pasta/rice in the evening.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Oh, also, what would you consider significant at this point? She's basically been dropping a gram at a time, the problem is that it doesn't seem to come back up.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i would try to make sure she doesnt drop below 10% of her initial body weight.

ok give pasta in the evening. stick with regular routine right now and give the bulking up foods in the evening


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She's lost more than 10% from when she left the rescue.  but most of that happened while she was initially ill. Do you think I should reset the 10% at the 83 g where she was stabilized? She weighed that for over a month before this latest fluctuation, which coincided with starting the longer nights. Ugh, I hate this. Im worried sick but I don't even know what more the vet would do. She's healthy as far as he and I can tell.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

yes go from 83 grams.

it might be the new schedule because she may be adjusting still. see if she gets used to it


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I will, thanks. 3 g in 2.5 weeks is definitely less alarming than the 10g in 6 days she initially lost. That's the thing -- it seems like the loss is too slow to be attributable to illness, but it's also not okay for it to continue indefinitely. I know birds hide their symptoms, but she is literally a ball of playful energy all day long. I find it hard to believe her behavior could improve so much if she were still seriously ill. 

What do you make of her suddenly ignoring her millet? Just an odd preference thing? That was all she ever had to eat before, so maybe it's not a treat to her. 

Also, do you think molting could have anything to do with the weight loss?


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I weighed her again this afternoon (because I'm obsessive) and it was 79.5. I know that's probably normal fluctuation in the course of a day, but I'm just completely freaked out.  What could this be? I love her so much, and it's been such a rollercoaster. I really just need her to be healthy.  

(Meanwhile she's having a party with her toys while I'm sitting here feeling sick and wishing she'd be eating instead.)


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

when mine are moulting they seem to sleep more and iv been juggling with cookies weight
he is 75g-80g but i weighed him and he was 80g


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Have you tried offering her soaked/sprouted grains? If she'll eat these or some other kind of moist food, you can boost the calorie content by adding a little bit of oil to it. Flax oil is excellent. People don't talk about giving red palm oil to birds as much as they used to, but if extra calories are needed it would also be a decent supplement.

It really does sound like she's healthy though. Maybe she was a bit flabby before and she's losing weight as her physical condition improves. There are many small cockatiels who are perfectly healthy at a weight of 75 grams, and it's possible that she is one of these.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> Have you tried offering her soaked/sprouted grains? If she'll eat these or some other kind of moist food, you can boost the calorie content by adding a little bit of oil to it. Flax oil is excellent. People don't talk about giving red palm oil to birds as much as they used to, but if extra calories are needed it would also be a decent supplement.
> 
> It really does sound like she's healthy though. Maybe she was a bit flabby before and she's losing weight as her physical condition improves. There are many small cockatiels who are perfectly healthy at a weight of 75 grams, and it's possible that she is one of these.


I haven't, and that's certainly something I can try. I was looking at those Harrison's Power Treats with the red palm oil online tonight, but judging from her reaction to the Harrison's pellets, I'm not keen on spending $15 for a pound of them.

I do think activity plays a role in this, although I'd like her to gain a little weight. I think her keel is slightly more prominent than it should be, although it's hard to say. The muscle is well-rounding on the sides, but I feel like the tip of the bone probably protrudes more than it should, if that makes any sense? It's rounded further out on her sides, but more of a V toward the middle of her chest. The vet was not worried about her body condition, though. I guess I'm just worried that the loss isn't going to stop.

But she was still as a statue when I got her, and didn't have the ability to even perch normally. Now she's all over her cage all day long, and even pretty acrobatic. She eats well, but it often seems like she'll stop eating to go play with a toy or do some other fun thing. Could it just be that she hasn't yet adjusted her intake to match her activity level? 

Like you said, I find it hard to believe that she'd be as active as she is if she were sick, yet I'm still concerned on some level. Her new feathers are coming in healthier and shinier than her old ones, her droppings look perfectly normal, and she's comfortable enough to make happy beak grinding noises every night and give courtship displays to me. So should I just put my anxiety aside and wait this out, as long as she stays above 75g?


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i think she may be just a tiny tiel. dally is pretty narrow chested too but of good weight. shes small too. just watch the weight i think


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Okay. Thanks, guys. I just needed some reassurance that I'm not being negligent if I don't rush her to the vet over this. (Although I certainly will get her seen if her behavior changes or the weight doesn't stop.)

lperry, does Cookie normally fluctuate up and down 5g like that?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

She might "muscle up" more as time goes by. She went from almost no activity at all to finally having the freedom to act like a bird, and it takes time to develop muscle strength and mass.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I got her to eat some quinoa and most of two big pasta twists tonight in addition to her seeds. Hopefully we're on the right track.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> She might "muscle up" more as time goes by. She went from almost no activity at all to finally having the freedom to act like a bird, and it takes time to develop muscle strength and mass.


So in other words, it might be a loss followed by a gain as she gets more muscle tone? I've been wondering about this. She definitely acts MUCH better, which is why I'm so reluctant to think she's sick.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

That would be my guess. I assume that your vet knows better than any of us, and he's not worried. Of course vets are wrong sometimes, but his opinion is consistent with the way she's behaving so it all sounds good to me.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> That would be my guess. I assume that your vet knows better than any of us, and he's not worried. Of course vets are wrong sometimes, but his opinion is consistent with the way she's behaving so it all sounds good to me.


I guess I'm just concerned that she lost an additional gram after she was last seen by the vet. But I assume that could be typical fluctuation? I think my other issue is that I've never weighed my birds before now, so I think I'm getting overly alarmed. I do trust my vet. He's very experienced with birds, and very well regarded in the avian veterinary community. But the worried mom in me of course wants to bring her in for every little thing.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's normal for weight to fluctuate by a couple of grams on a daily basis. It's the overall trend that you have to keep an eye on.

Flapping her wings and/or flying will help develop her chest muscles and put more "meat" around the keelbone. 

Belated comment about the millet: that's the one thing she had plenty of in the past, and she's making up for lost time getting the nutrients that aren't in millet and also enjoying the taste and texture of interesting new foods. She'll probably go back to eating millet eventually. Millet is a good healthy food but obviously it isn't nutritionally complete.

She needs protein to build muscle so it'll be good if she's getting a bit of egg or other protein food in appropriate amounts. Too much protein is bad for the kidneys so you have to try and strike a proper balance.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> It's normal for weight to fluctuate by a couple of grams on a daily basis. It's the overall trend that you have to keep an eye on.
> 
> Flapping her wings and/or flying will help develop her chest muscles and put more "meat" around the keelbone.


How frequently would you recommend weighing a bird? I think doing it every day is probably making me crazy because of the normal fluctuation. But what is a responsible interval to go without weighing a bird?

She is beginning to work on flying, so hopefully that will help. I'm really not sure what to make of her keelbone. The tip feels pretty sharp, but there's a good amount of muscle on either side up to that point.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I like to weigh my birds once a week, but since Roo is a special needs bird it's probably best to do it more frequently than that. If doing it daily is making you crazy, then maybe every other day or twice a week would work better for you.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Below is a weight chart you can use to keep track of the weight. Rule of thumb is to weight the *same time of day* each time you weight.

Just click on the pix until you get a full sized image....save....and you can prinit it out on 8.5" x 11" paper.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

80.5 again this morning. I was hoping it would be up after all the pasta she ate last night, but I'm happy it's not a loss. I think I'll try and wait until Friday to weigh her again so I don't make myself completely insane.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Your post yesterday said it was 79.5, so she's up a gram. This is in the normal fluctuation range, which includes factors like how recently the bird ate or pooped.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She was 80.5 yesterday morning and 79.5 in the afternoon. She tends to eat a lot in the morning and at night, so her lowest weights are mid-afternoon. But she would at least appear to be equivalent to yesterday.  All that pasta last night led to some mega morning poops. >.<


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Food doesn't stay inside a bird very long! And weighing her several times a day is an excellent way to drive yourself crazy.

From the very first post:


> Her diet is a very good seed mix, supplemented with veggies, pasta, and rice


Is that whole-grain pasta and brown rice? Because the "white" varieties are mostly empty calories. Although they do have the advantage that a bit of nutritious oil (like flax seed oil) will stick to them. 

You might want to go with a nice whole-grain bread in addition to or instead of the rice and/or pasta. My flock LOVES small fresh pieces of sprouted multi-grain bread, available at natural-foods grocery stores. It's the favorite baby food of my breeding birds, and the chicks grow up strong and healthy. Once it gets stale they're not interested any more, so only offer small amounts at a time.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

It is whole wheat pasta and brown rice. That's all I eat.  I havent tried bread yet because I live alone and it always goes bad before getting used. I will get some. 

I'm starting to think owning birds is just bad for people with anxiety. Not that I'd stop.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If you keep the bread in the freezer it will stay good for a long, long time.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

As far as the bread goes, if you don't want to buy a whole loaf, maybe you could find the smaller dinner type rolls that they sell at a bakery. Or freeze it too!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks for the bread tips.  I'll get some this weekend. Her crop is absolutely packed tonight, so I'm feeling good about that. I'm hoping the new bedtime just threw her a but, and she'll be good to go if I can teach her to eat her dinner earlier.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It's helpful to follow the natural daylight schedule if you can, and put her to bed at sunset. If you need for the nights to be longer than what Mother Nature is providing, I've found that it's easier to manipulate the sunrise than the sunset. My birds do NOT want to go to bed before it's dark outside, but they don't mind if I put them in a dark place at sunset and let the light back in at the time I want sunrise to occur.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo is a weird little nocturnal 'tiel who doesn't want to go to sleep until like 11pm. Unfortunately I can't manipulate the sunrise too much, because I have to leave around 7:45 to get to school on time, and I live alone. I think I'm going to try compromising at around 10 hours of dark, and have her out to eat with me before I cover her so I know her crop is full. 

I'm also not sure how much her new food bowl might have affected her eating this weekend. I did see her using it, but judging from the number of seed hulls on the bottom of the cage yesterday and today, she's been eating a lot more. We'll see. I'm just an anxious wreck that the weight loss won't stop, and it's not helping that I have family coming to visit tomorrow and a crazy week next week.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Do your best to relax - birds are sensitive to our moods and can tell when we're stressed, which upsets them in turn. When you're feeling anxious, take a couple of deep breaths and consciously relax any muscles that are tense. She's eating more now and that's good. Watch out that she doesn't get stressed by the visitors and general craziness coming up.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thank you.  The craziness is mostly at school, so it shouldn't affect her. She gets my spare room all to herself at night, so it shouldn't change her routine if I'm up late. 

Deep down I really do believe that she's healthy and thriving. I'm just great at catastrophizing everything.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Can anyone give me a better description of what the tip of the keelbone should feel like? I looked at the whole sticky, and I still can't decide if Roo is skinny or not. The tip itself feels sharp and protrudes by maybe a millimeter or two. But on either side, the tissue feels both substantial and well-rounded. Does this sound normal, underweight, or somewhere in the middle?

ETA: She's eating a TON now. If she's lost more when I weigh her tomorrow, there is definitely something wrong and I will be calling the vet. Please cross your fingers that doesn't happen. This girl deserves so much to be healthy.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm unskilled at keel-feeling and let my vet decide whether the weight is OK or not.

Maybe her new muscle development is starting to kick in now and she's eating more to fuel the process. That would be great!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I hope so.  I also changed her cage a lot in the past few weeks, and although she seems to enjoy it, I wonder if it might have thrown her off eating a bit. Who knows. 

Whatever is up with her keel, it doesn't feel like it's changed significantly since I've had her despite the weight fluctuation. I also ordered some probiotics, just in case there's an upset with her gut flora causing her to absorb fewer nutrients. I doubt that, since her droppings look normal, but I figured it couldn't hurt.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Down another 2 grams this morning. I want to throw up. I have a call in to the vet but I really don't know where we go from here. In the back of my mind I'm terrified she has something horrible like PDD.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

If the vet says to bring her in today, what do I ask for? I'm terrified of bloodwork, but I'm starting to think it might be necessary at this point. :/ What else? Fecal float to look for parasites? Xray of her digestive tract?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm sorry, I don't know what to recommend. Based on previous posts it sounds like your vet is very aware of the balance between finding out what they need to know and avoiding unnecessary stress on the bird, so it's probably best to do what he thinks is best.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Please keep us posted. You guys are in our thoughts. Hopefully the vet can find what the problem is.  There should be a hugs button.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks, guys. The vet is going to try and work her in tomorrow. Calling for more info in the morning. It's not rally likely that she has PDD, right? That's my biggest fear.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well for tonight.. you DON'T know what is going on with her. Wait and see what the Vet says. You will get no sleep tonight. You are in our thoughts.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> It's not rally likely that she has PDD, right?


Keep in mind that I don't really know anything about it, but I think it's unlikely. She's been vet-checked several times already without finding anything horrible. If something is wrong, it's more likely to be something simple like a bacterial infection. She came from a horrible environment so her immune system probably wasn't great to start out with, and she's been exposed to all kinds of new things since then maybe including some new types of bacteria. Positive changes are great but they're also stressful in their own way, and she might be a little overwhelmed physically.

Be sure to bring in some cage paper with recent poops on it. Sometimes lab work can be done on poop instead of the actual bird, and the poop doesn't mind the stress.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, she didn't lose any more between yesterday and this morning. I'm still trying to get in touch with the vet. Tielfan, I will be sure to do that, although she's had a gram stain and fecal float four times now.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The vet wanted to take blood, but she bruised immediately so he couldn't do it. We're going to try again on Friday morning. Until then, we're trying Baytril and milk thistle. Hoping she won't lose too much more between now and then. I was so hoping they'd tell me there wasn't a problem.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Keeping my fingers crossed for you  did the vet weigh her


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Yes. She was 77 on his scale but mine has always read a gram higher.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Good luck, and be sure to keep up with the probiotics. The Baytril will try to wipe out all the bacteria in her gut both good and bad.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He told me to do half the course of Baytril and then the probiotic. She did well on it last time, so hopefully it'll help again. In fact, the only time she gained weight was while on Baytril before.

ETA: He also said her keel is a little prominent, but that she is not seriously underweight at this time. He thinks it's still possible it might be a normal weight fluctuation, but its significant enough that he wants to do the labs.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

hopefully all is well


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks. I'm really hoping she just starts gaining this week, and then we won't have to do the blood work.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> In fact, the only time she gained weight was while on Baytril before.


This kinda points toward bacterial infection, doesn't it? Maybe she got reinfected or wasn't completely cured the first time around.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That's my thought. Her cultures were negative last time, but they were taken from the choana. Maybe it was GI and maybe ten days wasn't enough to knock it out. I'm so hoping it's that simple.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Interestingly, twenty four hours into her Baytril course, Roo started eating millet again. I have no idea if this is significant, but the same thing happened last time, so I want to believe it's a good sign.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Meds went much more smoothly tonight, I'm happy to report. I also think Roo seems to be making more happy vocalizations today, but that may be wishful thinking on my part. I'm not weighing her again until Tuesday because the vet wanted to give her a chance to recover from the stress of her appointment yesterday. I just want so badly to think that we're on the right track now.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Interestingly, twenty four hours into her Baytril course, Roo started eating millet again. I have no idea if this is significant, but the same thing happened last time, so I want to believe it's a good sign.


If it happened the same way twice it probably isn't a coincidence. There's reason to hope that it's an easy to treat bacterial infection that was depressing her appetite.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks so much. I really hope we're both right. If this doesn't work, it sounds like our next step will be bloodwork and a prophylactic treatment for giardia. Of course, my fear is that if this doesn't work, there won't be time to try anything else. :/ She's still active and happy, though, so that's a good sign.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't know if it's just because I'm home to watch this morning, but Roo has basically been snacking for the past 4 hours. I'm really hoping that means the antibiotic is working and maybe now she's compensating for the loss.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Go Roo!!! Yay!!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

The real test will be when I weigh her again on Thursday. But I really feel like she has to either stop losing weight, or start showing additional symptoms at some point, and so far she's still acting healthy.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

For the sake of keeping this thread current as well, Roo has gained back 2 grams since Monday. Since she's also more active and eating more, I think the Baytril is working on treating something. How long would you guys ask to continue it? Last time she was losing weight we did a 10 day course, but that doesn't seem to have been adequate considering she's now on it again a month later.

Also, I stopped the milk thistle last night and will not be continuing it unless she gives me reason to believe she needs it. It's just more stress than it's worth, and I have trouble believing that she has advanced enough liver disease to cause weight loss when she's a little ball of hyper energy all the time.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I stopped the milk thistle last night and will not be continuing it unless she gives me reason to believe she needs it. It's just more stress than it's worth, and I have trouble believing that she has advanced enough liver disease to cause weight loss when she's a little ball of hyper energy all the time.


This sounds like a wise move. I don't really know anything about the situation of course, but it seems to me that it's the Baytril that's really helping her now.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

He just said it was a precaution in case her bruising was because if a clotting issue. But her bruise is healed now and we hopefully won't be taking blood at all.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo is eating the heck out of some millet this morning. I think I should have known there was a problem the minute the started refusing it.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

lol They are funny that way I suppose. Same with kids.. when my grandson doesn't want a chocolate chip cookie.. I know he's not feeling well!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo is doing her version of "singing" today, which involves a lot of squeaky warbling. She hasn't done it in a few weeks, though, so I know she's feeling better. The vet called to check in yesterday, and we will be doing a double course of Baytril plus Benebac. I'll be weighing her again Monday or Tuesday morning.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

its so good to hear shes doing better!! hopefully shes out of the water here


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks, I hope so too! I'll admit, there's a part of me that's afraid she'll start losing again and that wants to weigh her every two seconds. But the vet and I agreed that as long as she keeps up eating more, it's better for her stress level (and mine) to do it less often.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

well yeah mine dont like to cooperate for weighing lol
so i can see the vets point 

its natural to worry. i dont blame you either.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sometimes it just feels like every time we solve one problem and I start to relax, something else happens. But I have to remind myself that it's really been a very short time to overcome years of neglect, and hopefully we're on the right track. I adopted Roo two months ago today. It feels like so much longer.


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## katew (Sep 6, 2011)

My friend has rigged up a perch that sits on the scales so weighing is less stressful for the bird. She breeds parakeets. Just a thought.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

We have a perch for the scale but she still doesn't enjoy it. I think probably she senses my stress.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

I use a pet carrier box as i have no chance of them staying still


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

My scale is too tiny for a box. It's a little jewelry scale about the size of my palm. It's great because it's extremely accurate, but a little perch or a bowl is about all I can manage.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

You guys would consider the increased eating to be a good sign, right? She has seriously been eating and preening ALL DAY the past several days. I'm inclined to think it's because she's finally feeling better and compensating for the loss, but the anxious part of me questions whether it could also be a sign of a more serious problem.

(watch. Next I'll be coming here saying "omg, guys, she's acting so healthy! Clearly something is horribly wrong!" I hate anxiety.)


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

She lost weight and needs to gain it back. Sounds to me like everything is groovy.

Will she stand on the scale willingly if you reward her with special treats? That's what I do with my birds, and some of them are so happy about it that they'll get on the scale when I'm not even weighing them in hopes of getting a treat. 

I use dried cantaloupe seeds for rewards. Some specialty seed mixes contain a small amount of cantaloupe seeds and that's how I found out the birds LOVE them. Apparently no one sells packages of cantaloupe seeds so I dry my own.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She used to, but lately she's decided the scale is a fun place to launch herself off of and try to fly. >.< She's usually okay as long as I do it first thing in the morning, before she's really awake. Then she just kind of stands there and stares groggily at me while I read the scale. It's really not THAT big an issue, but I still think it's better for me not to do it every single day right now. Especially since, as the vet pointed out, even he doesn't want me dragging her in again for 1-3 grams' fluctuation, and if I saw that on a daily basis, I would just be a panicky mess all the time.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo is not eating quite as much today as the past couple days, but still quite a lot. I'm thinking maybe she's starting to even out because her metabolism has recovered some. Either that or it might be because it's dark and rainy today. I've decided to weigh her next on Tuesday morning, because I have to work tomorrow, and I don't want to be panicking all day when I can't do anything if there's a problem with her weigh-in. Everyone say a little prayer for her on Tuesday morning. 

(Don't get me wrong, if there was an emergency, I'd be sure to get her care. But at this point, we've been dealing with a gradual up and down pattern for almost a month, so I'm not very concerned about sudden drastic changes.)


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I caved and weighed her a day early. But the good news is that she is now back up to 80.5! Her most recent weight loss started from 81g on 9/16, so I'm pretty thrilled to see an improvement this rapid. It does seem like her eating/gaining is slowing down a bit, but I think thats expected as she gets back closer to normal.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This is excellent news!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

tielfan said:


> This is excellent news!


Thanks! I'm so happy. As much as I wanted to pass the loss off on stress/adjustment, I'm now certain it was truly a bacterial infection. Ill be discussing with my vet how long she should stay on this time, and what we can do to prevent future relapses. Judging by her keel, I think she could still gain 5-10g but I imagine it will take time, and as long as she's not losing, that's fine with me.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

When you first started reporting her weight loss it seemed like it could be normal, but then it became clear that it was going on too long. So you did the right thing and hustled off to the vet. Fortunately the Baytril is solving the problem!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm so glad I ASKED for the Baytril. He wanted to try an antiparasitic first, which made sense, but just didn't feel right with my gut. It's kind of chilling thinking what might have happened if we'd gone the other route.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo is definitely eating less now than she was when she first started the med. I'm thinking this is because she's gained back enough weight now that she doesn't feel like she's starving. I hope, anyway. 

My latest concern is that now I have a nasty cold, and I'm her sole caretaker. As I understand it, she can't catch a cold virus from me, right? And she's already on an antibiotic, so that should give her added protection from secondary bacteria. I'm being very careful about washing my hands before I touch any of her stuff, and limiting our interactions to scritces at arm's length. Does this sound like it should be okay?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Birds can't catch colds from us so she's safe enough and you probably don't need to keep her at arms length. Don't cough or sneeze on her of course.

The decrease in eating sounds normal to me, although you might want to check her weight a little more often (like every other day) to make sure she hasn't started losing weight again.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She was still 80.5 as of this morning, so I was planning to just wait until Friday when we have our appointment. That's in 2 days, so I think it should be okay. I also think she's still eating more than before we started meds, just not as much as last week when she was eating like crazy.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

One other oddity I'm planning to discuss with the vet is the fact that her urine occasionally (maybe 1/20 times) has a very slight yellow or green tint. This has been going on since the rescue first got her, so I don't think it's related to the latest weight loss, but it still sort of bothers me. I can't link it to any kind of pattern, and her urates are always white and completely normal, so I'm at a loss. Any thoughts?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The poopology article at http://www.avianweb.com/poopology.html says that yellow or green urine is a sign of liver disease. There might not be anything to worry about since it only happens once in a while with Roo, but maybe she's having some sort of liver episode when it happens.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I've read that before, but wouldn't you also expect the urates to be discolored if that were the case? I don't know. I know my vet wanted to take blood for organ function just because of her history, but I'm reluctant now since she had a bad reaction last time and she seems to be getting better. I guess I'll see what he says. I'm also not sure how many of them might be discolored by the fecal component bleeding into the urine, but it doesn't happen every time.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Problem poop is a mystery to me, so your vet and/or maybe somebody else on this board will be a better source of information than me.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I think Ill just wait and ask my vet. Honestly, I have seen droppings like this before from my other birds and never thought anything of it because I wasnt up on my bird health info. But they're 18 and 13, so I'm inclined to think it's nothing serious. 

Of course, now that I said Roo was eating less today, she's been stuffing her face for the past two hours straight. Maybe she was just sleepy today because it was really rainy and dark.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Roo is having another "stuff my face non-stop" day today. I'm starting to think she was on strike yesterday because I ran out of Nutriberries in the morning, and my order didn't get here until after her normal dinnertime. 

I also observe that she eats more and is far more active when I am here. Any thoughts on what to do about this when I'm at school/work my normal 8 hours a day? I want to either move my Sunny up here or get her a friend, but that's going to have to wait a few months until after I'm sure her health is okay and my vet fund is replenished.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Maybe playing music or nature sounds or running the TV while you're gone would help her feel like there's someone home besides her. Or making a recording of your voice and playing it on a continuous loop.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I just wanted to update anyone who's still following this thread, or who might read it in the future for the sake of completeness. Roo is now 13 days off antibiotics and continues to maintain weight at 80g. You'll notice that's a little lower than where she started -- she was at 81g when she started losing weight this time. Although she now fluctuates between 79.5-80.5, she has not gained further despite eating a ton and appearing extremely healthy by all my observations.

I am thinking this might just be where her metabolism wants her body currently. Her keel is a little more prominent than I'd like, but she's not emaciated by any means, and she spent the first four years of her life starving, so perhaps her metabolism is accustomed to fewer calories and more activity. 

Interestingly, she is also learning to fly for the first time. I am wondering whether some of the weight loss might be due to this process. I've read that baby birds will sometimes drop weight when they prepare to fledge. Is it possible she's doing something similar? She isn't a baby, but in a lot of ways she does seem "stuck" developmentally since she's been so neglected and confined up until now. 

I wish I had a definitive answer that could help people in the future, but the truth is I don't really know what happened. Maybe she had a bacterial enteritis. Maybe she really did just lose some weight due to stress and changing routine. Maybe it was related to her heavy molt and beginning to fly. Her lowest weight was 76g. Within a week of starting Baytril, she was back up to 80g, but now we seem stuck there. 

As long as she continues to maintain and act healthy, I'm going to leave well enough alone. I'm trying to embrace not needing to know every detail of her health all the time.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I've read that baby birds will sometimes drop weight when they prepare to fledge. Is it possible she's doing something similar?


I don't know but I would guess that it's something different. With a lot of wild birds (including cockatiels) babies in the nest pack on the weight and actually weigh more than their parents prior to fledging. They need a little extra fat during the period right after fledging, when they're learning to fly and not getting fed as much by the parents. 

I would guess that Roo is simply burning up a lot of calories as she learns to fly, without the special biological factors that a fledgling would have. You may see some weight gain later on as her flying muscles get bigger and stronger. The keel is the anchor for the flight muscles in the chest, so building these muscles might make the keel less prominent even without any weight gain. She spent most of her life not being able to flap her wings properly and probably had less chest development to start out with than the average cockatiel. Now she gets to make up for that.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Do you think it's possible the heavy molt also contributed? It fits time-wise. I read conflicting things about whether a molt can cause weight loss, but I know it's recommended to supplement with high calorie food while the bird is molting, so I imagine it could be metabolically stressful in conjunction with everything else that was going on.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

There's obviously a change in weight due to the fact that some large heavy feathers are no longer attached to the body. But it swings the other way as the new feathers grow in, because the sheath on the pinfeathers is heavier than the unsheathed feather will be. It takes physical resources to grow new feathers because all the material in the new feathers has to come from somewhere inside the body. So there's a complicated interplay of factors here that can make it hard to figure out what the numbers on the scale really mean.


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## katew (Sep 6, 2011)

I ahven't been on for a while but I'm glad she's levelled out.
go Roo!
Current picture needed!


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

These are the most current I have, katew -- http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=24944 They're from last weekend. 

tielfan -- I wasn't thinking so much of the weight of the actual feathers as I was thinking of the metabolic changes growing the new feathers might have caused. Especially since she essentially had to grow all of her feathers in twice within a 6 week period, I would think this might have been especially stressful. I know we're just theorizing, though. I can't help it, that's what makes me a scientist!


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I see where you two are going. There's the difference in weight of feathers.. but there's also the body using energy to replace the feathers. If this is where you two are going.. I can see both playing a huge factor in Roo's recovery. It just makes sense.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

That was my thought exactly. That plus the stress of a new routine, and her activity level going up exponentially. It makes sense that she'd go through a big metabolic adjustment. I sort of also suspect all the changes may have resulted in an upset of intestinal flora that contributed to possibly malabsorption and weight loss. Whether she actually needed an antibiotic to correct this or not, it would account for the Baytril seeming to have a pretty quick effect.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> I sort of also suspect all the changes may have resulted in an upset of intestinal flora that contributed to possibly malabsorption and weight loss. Whether she actually needed an antibiotic to correct this or not, it would account for the Baytril seeming to have a pretty quick effect.


If the upset balance was dramatic enough to cause malabsorption and weight loss, I think it officially qualifies as an infection. 

Roo has had quite a lot happening in her life lately and it's not surprising that it might take her a while to physically adjust to it, with some ups and downs along the way. Maybe she'll gain more weight later or maybe she's just naturally a little bit thin. I've known people who are naturally thin and would like to gain a little weight but can't do it no matter how much they try. Roo seems to be fine right now, and if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sorry, I meant imbalance leading to an overgrowth of something bad, or an overgrowth of one of the normally present bacteria turning pathogenic. Same way opportunistic infection happens in us. So yes, the Baytril would wipe it ALL out, and then the probiotic would re-establish the balance. I don't know. I'm rambling because I'm an immunology geek.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I looked at the pix's in your link. Roo is a short bodied bird, which could be a result of genetics and breeding practices. Breeders for show had over the course of 20 years breed for birds with short bodies so that the chest cavity looked fuller and gave the appearance of a larger bird. Show breeder sold off the cull bird (birds that did not have big weights) and many of these these birds wound up in the mainstream of novice breeders aviaries. The downside to this body style is that there is less room for the organs in the body and they are pressed together which can result in health issues later on, especially the liver. If you look at the side profile of a normal cockatiel the body cavity is allot longer, thus the internal organs are better positioned and less stressful to the bird.

In regards to her weight, after reading the entire thread and looking at the pix's she is a small bird and her weight is appropriate for her size. Being a small body cavity bird I would not push it in trying to get weight on her, and as tielfan suggested, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.' 

A bird can also pick up on your stress and react to it too. Here is some info: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/stress.html


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks, srtiels. I guess the concern was just that she weighed around 85g when she was surrendered from her original owner, so it seemed odd that she'd weigh less than that now when she's clearly on a healthier diet and has more food available to her. On the other hand, she lived in a 8"x12" cage with two other birds before, so she may actually have been heavier than she should be, due to lack of activity. 

Do you have any recommendations about how to help her compensate for her body type? Should I be giving her a specialized diet or supplements to support her liver? She is only four years old, so hopefully there is still time to reverse any damage done by her rough start, but I know there's no way to completely erase genetic risk.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*so she may actually have been heavier than she should be, due to lack of activity. *
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Yes that would account for her weighing more prior to you receiving her.

With her body type exercise and plenty of movement is the best thing for her. I would also put a Full Spectrum (FSL)or vita light near or above her cage. With her body type and lack of activity she is more prone to have liver problems and the FSL helps to maintain good liver health among other health benefits.

With her body build (finer bone structure) her weight should range between 75-80 grams.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

She's around 80 right now, but I still feel like the very tip of her keel is a bit sharp. It's hard to explain. It's like it's well-rounded on the sides and most of the way up, but then the tip itself protrudes by a couple millimeters. Does this sound appropriate to you? I am admittedly unskilled at feeling the keel, as I've never had a bird with weight problems before.

She has a 24x36 flight cage now, and is in the process of learning to fly, so exercise isn't a problem. She is an extremely active bird now, in fact the most active I have ever had. She bounces all over her cage and will sometimes destroy multiple toys in a single day. She also has a FSL for a few hours a day, although I'm reluctant to leave it on while I'm at work. Should I do anything like periodic aloe detox? 

Right now she eats Volkman cockatiel seed with a few sunflower seeds, Nutriberries, about 1/4 millet spray every other day, and a few Harrison's high potency pellets (although she's not too enthusiastic about those). She also gets a variety of veggies, whole grain pasta, rice, and oatmeal in small quantities. I want to learn to sprout, but haven't begun experimenting with it yet. Would you recommend any modifications to this diet?

Thanks so much for your help.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* but I still feel like the very tip of her keel is a bit sharp. It's hard to explain. It's like it's well-rounded on the sides and most of the way up*
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She sounds like she is normal. Tiels like people vary in bone structure. Think of the keelbone in relation to the collarbone on humans....with some people it can be more pronounced than others.

Her caging and exercise sound good. About the only thing I would eliminate from the diet is the pasta and rice....because of the iron content, which gets stored in the liver and accumulates.

I would increase the sunflower seed and foods that have some fat content. Contradictory to what most people are told and believe that fat is not good, with tiels they need some body fat. The reason why is that the fat reserves store vitamins and nutrients that the bird needs to draw on when it gets sick. If there are no fat reserves/content in the body the body self-canabalizes itself drawing from the protein and muscle. Exercise will help maintain a healthy fat ratio in the body.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

What specifically would you add that has more fat? I think the balance of sunflowers to other seeds in the mix is pretty good. The only reason I said few was because I wanted to emphasize that it's not one of those mixes that has a TON of sunflowers. Should I give her more millet? Unlike most birds, she's not SUPER interested in it, I think because it's all she was offered in her previous home. She eats it, but not any more than she eats her other foods. She actually likes green leafy veggies as her favorite treats. I just ordered Harrison's mash to see if she likes the texture of it better than the pellets. 

Did you see my earlier question about aloe detox? I've read quite a lot about the product, but I'm not sure if it would be appropriate in her case, when there are no suspected symptoms of liver problems. I don't want to do her more harm than good by adding too many supplements.

I actually study metabolic illness in humans, so I completely understand what you're saying about fat reserves. I'm just unsure how best to go about getting healthy fats to a bird.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If the mix has a good ratio of sunflower seeds to it then it is fine. Millet is actually more for an energy and protein source. Protein helps to build muscle which is why millet is beneficial to convalescing birds. If she is not fond of it then her body is telling her she does not need it and if so, just offer a partial piece 1-2 times a week.

LOL...I would just leave well enough alone and not experiment with Aloe Detox without having a just cause. One thing I learned from my past mistakes is we can cause more harm and kill with kindness when trying to use a band-aid treatment from an unknown health reason.


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

Thank you, srtiels. I really appreciate your taking the time to read this thread and give me your advice.


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