# more dieing chicks



## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

As requested, this is in a new thread!
Basically. i have 2 aviaries. up to 10 breeding pairs on each (usually only about 8max wanting to breed so plenty of boxes to share). I started off the week with 13chicks. Now only have 8. they are dieing from different clutches and not all at the same time in a clutch. 
Elton died a couple of days ago, elvis his clutch mate (about 5days older) is still going OK and has his eyes open now, he is about 2 weeks old.
I now only have Eva left in the neighbouring box, lots 3 chicks, 2 today, 1 yesterday
I have just got 1 left in another box in the wooden aviary, there were 4, lots one at the start of the week - wasn't too worried as always loose one from a 4chick clutch, lost the other 2 this morning.
Have two other boxes in the metal aviary, one with 3 chicks in and the other with 1. These all seem OK. 
they are fed:
>Sunflower seed
>Budgie seed (Higher nutrition, better for breeding than aviary mix)
>They get dandilion/thissle (The stuff without the spikes)
>They get EMP as and when they need it. Have not given it to these yet as needed to get some more which I only got yesterday
>They have cuttle fish ad-lib
>They have water in 2 bottles (As always have) and the metal aviary has a bird bath at the bottom as they are housed with 4 rosellas.
>The wooden aviary is housed with 1 budgie

There have been no warning signs to the dying of the chicks, they get checked on every morning and then the aviary checked in the evening. If something is not right or something has happened that day, I check all the boxes again.
Been down this evening and all left seem OK still

This happened about march time and I lost all my chicks then (about 6) in similar circumstances. have then changed the bedding to wood-shavings, this is soft for the chicks, dust free, non-toxic and is a similar item to the aspen (Or whatever you call it!) that most of you use just much more available in my area. It is specifically designed for animals including bird bedding.

I can provide many pictures of them but to be honest, they all look like normal chicks!

I am going to worm them tomorrow morning but am worried about the day-old chicks I have getting the wormer into their system however, I seem to have little choice as they are just dying left-right-and-centre.

Please Please Please help me...,
I am nearly giving up with all my cockatiels and just selling the lot as it just isn't fair for them to have dead chicks.

they are all undercover (the metal aviary is half covered, the wooden completely, all boxes are covered) and they are very well sheltered from the wind.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The only thing I can suggest is that you get the bodies to an avian vet and have them do a necropys to find out cause of death. And you might bring in a chick that appears healthy to have a gram stain done of the poop.

I would not be worming the parents right now. 

The only time I have had similar things happen was when I had giardia or psuedomonas (from contaminated water) or aspirgilliosis (from contaminated seed or moldy bedding)


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

OK, I will disinfect all the water bottles tomorrow too so that'll kill any giardia or pseudomonas in there. The seed is all kept under cover and is checked regularly, they get fresh seed about twice a week as this is when they get through their hopper. so i would have thought aspirgillosis would be a problem. 

My worry would be with taking a healthy baby would be the time spent away from parents as they are about half an hours drive away and then with treatment time added one, they would be gone a good 2 hours. I cannot hand-rear them but they do go so quick, and they go with food in their crop, hand-feeding should not be required really as they are still being fed.

Thanks for your help... Any other ideas welcome, i am wanting to throw the book at this so to speak as really need some light with the cockatiels as am very disheartened this time. They just seem to be dropping like flies!


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## Petra (May 29, 2011)

Can't really help you but we both a microscope our self to look for worms.
A lot cheaper in time.
If you take poop to the vet take from different birds in a plastic sack.
Did you check for aphid (hope this is the right word) 
http://www.edialux.be/nl/Probleem/105/bloedluis-op-dieren










They go on the bird at night in the day you find them on the end of the sticks they sit on.
Oooh a good thing to keep them away from youre nest is to put some dryed tobacco stems.

Greetings Petra.


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

I will be honest that I haven't noticed any. I haven't really looked to be fair. never thought about it. I will look from now-on. What size are they?
We have a micro-scope at work but no stuff for looking for worms.  Can you please tell me how you look for worms at home and also what you are looking for? Then, Depending on what I need, I could have a look at work! 

My neighbour had a thought, Could it be them getting cold? As they are getting bigger, maybe they are struggling to stay under mum/dad. We have been having a lot of rain here so the nights have been colder than the week before. once they have got cold, they loose energy then die. Anyone seen this before? was just an idea.

I have just dis-infected the bottles and turned their bath up-side-down as this is filled with rain water. I have not wormed them as Suzanne suggested not to but given them nice fresh water again. I will dis-infect their bottles every week now and clean them every day to ensure that they don't get anything. (Again, I will get disinfectant from work as we use very strong stuff which kills nearly all nasty things!)


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## Petra (May 29, 2011)

aphid's are about one millimeter if you wipe your finger on them they turn red from the blood.
They drink the blood of the bird and it will kill them in time.

Worms you can see under a microscope just mix the poop with a little bit clean water.

youre water bottles you have to clean every day very important.
I don't know how many birds you have but they eat a spoon of seed every day.
Are they well fed? can you feel the bone on the chest?
About the temperature how cold is it?
How old are the young ones?
Just born are to be under there parents 3 or 4 weeks old could be next to them.
Greetings Petra


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Petra...whenever you post someones elses photo you *Need* to include a link to the source of the photo. Click on *Edit* and add the link to your posting  Thanks


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## Petra (May 29, 2011)

Oeps just forget it every time , thanks for reminding me :blush:


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

Hi, hey range from 1day old (Still alive! to 2.5weeks old at the moment. they have all been around 1 week old which have died. Not sure on exact temp but tonight is to be about 5oC and then warm up to around 10oC and above. Has probably been about 5-8oC the last few nights though.
Adults are very well fed, they don't have a protruding bone, would say just right to be honest, maybe some slightly over but nothing obese or underweight for the parents.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The pix posted is a red mite. They find where the main arteries (legs and under the wings) are and suck the blood. The chicks will appear very plale and week.

OK...on thing I learned from you posting is that you feed in hoppers. Even though the seed is inside and protected from the rain...if there is high humidity during rainy weather this puts moisture in the air that can also be absorbed in the seed and cause slight molding and/or aflutoxins. (sp)

Food should be given fresh *daily*. Never blow off seed hulls and top off with more seed. It must be changed out and given fresh daily.

The same with water. Avoid plastic (and also the water bottles)...use glass for your watering bowls. it is easier to clean and does not scratch. it is the tiny scratches in plastic that can harbour bacteria and contaminate fresh water.


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## Petra (May 29, 2011)

Could be the temperature but if they are good parents it would go OK.
The red mite you won't find any on the bird in the daytime they hide on the end of sticks and hide in flaw also very important to clean those.
Hope you find out the problem...
Can you put some plastick to cover up youre aviary for the cold?
Do they have a place out of the wind?
Just thinking how to help


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## mitch2006 (Jan 15, 2011)

don't give up hope they can be little fighters some chicks
try what is suggested and keep us all posted


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

2 more died this morning. About 1-1.5week old and a 2-2.5week old. They were all fine last night, all fed, nothing unusual about them.
I just don't understand and don't know what I can do anymore.
The aviary is covered on 3 sides. 1 is a wall, 1 is a shed, 1 is perspex sheets, the open end is the front and the nest boxes are not near the front (They are half way down the aviary) to protect them from rain and wind. The roof of one is completely covered, the roof of the other is half covered but all the boxes are in complete shelter.
There are plenty of perches for birds to stay dry in, was another cold night but these were my oldest 2 chicks who died this time.

Food in the hopper is fresh daily, just put in a hopper to keep it tidy and dry and all in one place.

I am really struggling to come to terms with this and I feel like something is missing and therefore i am killing the chicks as it cannot be the parents as there are too many dying from lots of different clutches and I am the only other person involved.


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## Petra (May 29, 2011)

If i were you i should take a dead young one to a vet.
Because we don't know what it is and you don't know and i think you want to stop this.
Also take some poop from your birds with you take from different birds some.
It is the only thing i can advice you right now.
Hope your birds will be ok 
Greetings Petra.


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

I will try to sort that out for one who dies during the week. by the time they open again, It will be too late to bring these down.
We are thinking maybe due to overcrouding now? Parents are realising that there are enough of them and therefore killing the chicks to prevent further overcrouding. They have plenty of food and water but if they feel space is a bit tight, then they will not want the youngsters there. We may therefore just sell all our stock, disinfect everything, get in a few new rosellas, cockatiels and we will start some lovebirds too (We were always planning the lovebirds and have a new aviary nearly ready for them, just need a few new panels!) and just starting with a few pairs in each aviary, max 4 pairs. At the moment, our 6X8 aviary has about 8 pairs in and one cockatiel with a broken wing and a budgie. Our 10X3 aviary has about 8-9pairs again and 1pair rosellas, 2 male rosellas as their hens died. We are thinking that maybe we should just have 3-4 pairs in each and that will allow room for the chicks who will then be taken when independent and hand-tamed and then sold for pets so at any one time, there will be about 8 adults in total.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Wow im so sorry 

is it possible that others tiels are killing them


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

It is possible, but there are no signs on the chicks of attack and surely they would kill the whole clutch rather than single chicks in multiple clutches?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

When one dies put it in a plastic bag and refrigerate it (do not freeze) until you can take it to a vet to get a necropsy done.

If it is not food or water causing the problem it could be a viral problem such as polyoma.


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## mitch2006 (Jan 15, 2011)

so sorry to hear about your loss

i think at this point you might wanna follow suggestions about an autopsy on the passed babies(necropsy real name for procedure)
then at least you will have some idea of what your problem really is 
cause if you sell this flock off 
you wanna know what they have wrong with them for next owners or you to treat bird with meds if needed
or you will know if its environment you might have to do a remodel of flight cages if it needs to be done
also its to be sure its not in the environment and get a new flock only for them to develop that same problem if it wasn't fixed by meds /remodeling cages/ flights 
at least get 2 out of 2 different nest boxes to have necropsy done on if you can't afford to do more then 2 babies but the more you can have done you might beging to see some patterns of what might cause the little ones deaths
should any more ....pass on 
which i hope it doesn't happen any more ...fingers crossed for all of you no more losses


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## barryh12 (Jun 8, 2011)

When they died did they have full crops if so the parents must have passed somthing on to them like worms.Do you worm your birds?


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

they get wormed one a year. Some have full crops, some have food in crops but not full. MAybe only had one with empty crops. They were very young ones though


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## MommaBird (May 19, 2011)

I am so sorry that you are going through this, I wish I had some advice but all I can do is give you my best wishes and tell you never give up! You seem like a really caring person and I hope you figure this out, I have my first ever clutch and (still eggs) and I am so stressed so I can not BEGIN to understand what you are going through. I hope you can at least figure out whats causing this and use it as a learning experience. It is obvious you care about your bird so don't quit on them!


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## Buggy (Jan 27, 2011)

Try to pull some chicks for hand feeding to see if they die too.


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## mitch2006 (Jan 15, 2011)

how many chicks are there?and how many are you gonna try handfeeding?
have you hand fed before?


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## NuttyNu (Aug 20, 2009)

OK, I will pull my largest chick (About 10-14days old. Opened eyes Sat just gone.)as i guess I stand best chance with this being bigger.
I have NEVER hand reared a bird this young. I have only done ones which are 1 week before adult birds but these were WILD sparrows etc NOT cockatiels.

Can anybody please help regarding feeding them. I will take one in the morning once they've had breakfast. I have plenty of EMP to use as this is what is adviced from all my pet-shops and they cannot stock anything else. I have ample access to syringes etc too.
What is best to keep him in? I do not have an incubator or anything like that. Can get Hot water bottle and box... Will this do?
What is a good regieme to get into with him regarding feeding him? (how much, how often?)
What about Toiletting him... Is he able to do this himself?

Any info will be of great use to me.


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## mitch2006 (Jan 15, 2011)

for me i did....
a large tall tote box (tupperware)with aspen shavings 3"deep is where i kept babies in.
i placed a light towel or a thin sheet over top except one small corner to let air in
i feed my 8-14 days old every 4 hrs 4-6cc of formula 5x a day 
i feed at 7am,11am,3pm,7pm,final feed for the night was 11pm repeat next day
if feathers get dirty use a damp cloth and wipe in an upward motion on feathers
to get pablum out.
at 15-24 days i did...
feedings at 7 am,12pm,5pm,11pm 7-10cc ,every 5hrs you would feed
after this age srtiels has a great sticky on handfeedings 3-4 week olds check it out too to feed your other ones this age...i used her method and have some lovely weaned babies.
hope this helps remember this is a guideline could be less for some chicks to fill crops
watch crop as it fills NEVER let formula stretch crop into bottom of throat area 
it could cause chick to chock of formula from aspirating on it into lungs


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi I am in the UK also. This is my first year of breeding. I have 18 cockatiels in an outside aviary. They have produced 28 chicks between 6 pairs  Nearly all of them have fledged now  I did pull 4 for hand rearing at 3.5 weeks old, I tried EMP but with little success, a local breeder recommended a website called Rob Harvey, where i purchased Avi-Plus hand rearing formula, its really easy to use, and is full of all the nutrients the chicks need, you can also add a probiotic which i have added potent brew from the Birdcare company as it is in liquid form compared to the probiotic Rob harvey sells in powder form. Touch wood i have had no problems at all with them feeding or crop issues. It works out the same price as EMP apart from the delivery cost, but it does arrive within 2 days. Just thought i would mention in in case you have any problems with the EMP  Good Luck with the babies


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## Petra (May 29, 2011)

Nuttynu how are they doing right now?


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