# apple cider vinegar?



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i want to start putting apple cider vinegar in the birds water... just wondering opinions on that and how much i should. for 2 tiels and 2 lovebirds. i heard it can prevent some health problems so i figured i may as well as i have pure apple cider vinegar. how much do i add to the water?


----------



## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

I put about 1/8 tsp for each 8 oz of water. They won't drink it if it's any stronger. Make sure it's the non-pasteurized kind with a mother, otherwise it's not any good.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

its pure, non pasturized 

so... let me get a photo of their water dishes so i can get proper dosage on this as i dont understand ounces lol


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

ok photos

munch's bowl

















mango's bowl









and the tiels bowl


----------



## lordsnipe (Nov 11, 2010)

you'll probably have to measure the combined water capacity of all bowls and measure a vinegar dosage appropriately. 8 oz is 236ml according to google.

tbh though I would just clean out and replace water once a day and not worry about the vinegar.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i do change the water 1 or 2 times a day usually or even more if they dirty it faster lol lovebirds put everything in their water and the tiels get seed in it when the water bowl is no where near the seed dishes lol id rather just be cautious


----------



## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

Each one of those would require about 1/3 tsp.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

alrighty, i can measure that easily. thanks a bunch, mentha!


----------



## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Cinnamon dips her pellets in the water and then eats them, maybe the tiels are doing that with their seed?


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

heaven knows lol


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Each one of those would require about 1/3 tsp.


That sounds like an awful lot, and personally I wouldn't put in more than a few drops once or twice a week. 

Nothing has really been proven but it looks like vinegar does have some health benefits. However it also looks like a lot of the claims are wildly exaggerated, and the actual benefits can be gotten from any kind of vinegar and there's nothing special about ACV. It's well established that excessive vinegar consumption can cause serious health problems so it's best to err on the side of caution, because no one really knows what the safe dose is.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

well i will do this dose here then once every 2 weeks.... is that reasonable, tielfan?


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

You probably aren't going to cause any serious problems doing it once every two weeks. But 1/3 teaspoon in each water cup still sounds like a lot to me, and if the flavor is too strong the birds won't drink it.

The health benefits of vinegar apparently come from the acetic acid in it, so another factor that I don't know how to adjust for is the natural acidity of the water. Where I live the water is very alkaline, so I would probably need a bit more to get the desired effect than someone who lives in a place where the water is more acidic.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

our water here is not very acidic. we got great water treatment here. best in ontario  learned that one in science lol

but regardless to water systems.

thanks, tielfan, mentha. its more a precaution than anything. thanks for the help

if it helps, i taste tested the amount in their water to be sure. i cant taste it so i think they wont either.


----------



## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

Oh my! I meant to say 1/8 tsp combined. I really need glasses.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

D: ill fix it lol no harm done, theyre sleeping--not drinking lol so its all fixable


----------



## Annie (Nov 20, 2009)

I did read in a tiel guidebook that it is good to add a bit of apple cider vinegar in their water, but then I think I read somewhere on this forum that it might disturb their PH balance or something so apparently there's some debate surrounding this...so in the end I decided not to do it because I decided if it ain't broken then don't fix it.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

i think anyone would know by now, im paranoid lol


----------



## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

The whole point is to adjust the PH so their crop is less hospitable to ailments especially crop stasis and yeast infections in chicks. Some people give their birds things like Novalsan. I can't see where ACV would be any more harsh than a disinfectant. 

My Gray gets ACV because it's supposed to help kill of some bacteria and she is prone to infection.


----------



## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

I'm paranoid too. Once my gray came down with a very harsh bacterial infection I've been researching homeopathic remedies for all sorts of ailments. I'm afraid my other birds might come down with something similar as she had and I'd have an epidemic of birds on antibiotics for the rest of their lives. I also have community well water so all sorts of bacteria grow in the water, ACV may not kill all of them, but it makes me feel better knowing I've tried.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

well i fixed everything. rather prevent a problem than have a whole flock with problems!
thanks for your help!


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Oh my! I meant to say 1/8 tsp combined. I really need glasses.


That's much better! I liked the original recommendation of 1/8 teaspoon per 8 ounces of water, which seems to be a very reasonable dose once or twice a week.

It's easy to work with too. There are two ways to go about it. One way is to empty all the water cups into a measuring cup while you're servicing the cages and see how much water you have altogether. Then when you're ready to refill the cups you know how much water you'll need and how much vinegar to put in it. Another way is to just mix some up in the right ratio (for example 16 ounces water and 1/4 teaspoon vinegar) and start filling water cups. If you run out of water before you run out of cups, just mix up some more.



> I think I read somewhere on this forum that it might disturb their PH balance or something so apparently there's some debate surrounding this


It's my understanding that it works by altering the ph balance in the gut in a way that's favorable to beneficial bacteria and unfavorable to harmful bacteria. But you don't want to go crazy with it of course.

Here's an article that seems like a reasonable, balanced look at the vinegar issue: http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/the-health-benefits-of-vinegar2.htm This link takes you to the middle of the article, which is where the most relevant part starts. When you get to the bottom of the page, click the link to the next page because that's where they talk about what vinegar actually seems to do. 

At http://www.mdinfo.com/forums/35667/Risks_of_Excessive_Intake_of_Vinegar it talks about the risks of excessive consumption, which are:
• The acetic acid can injure tooth enamel, parts of the digestive tract, and the esophagus.
• Too much consumption of vinegar has been known to have a negative affect on potassium and bone density levels.
• Problems with drug-to-drug interactions.

Cockatiels won't have an issue with tooth enamel or drug interactions, but the rest is a potential problem.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

thats very informative! thanks, theres not much on this stuff on google.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I get the impression that it hasn't been researched much at all, but there's a very large bandwagon making enthusiastic claims on the basis of anecdote. There probably is some real benefit to vinegar consumption but you can't believe everything you hear.


----------



## .mpeg (Oct 6, 2010)

my vet told me to use apple cider vinegar at a strength of 1mL in 250mL. i make up a waterbottle of it (750mL in this case) and keep that in the fridge and dispense as necessary. that's what i use for defrosting my birds' veges, and then pour it off into his water container so as well as containing the vinegar it also contains some vege protein. the finches/quail also get the same veges so they get traces of the vinegar too


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*The whole point is to adjust the PH so their crop is less hospitable to ailments especially crop stasis and yeast infections in chicks. Some people give their birds things like Novalsan. I can't see where ACV would be any more harsh than a disinfectant. *
*-------------------------------------------*

Well I can speak from first hand experience and I have learned that you DO NOT put anything in the birds water. Some rules of thumb: If it ain't broke, don't fix it'

The downside of using ACV is that it does change the pH which in turn causes a change in the intestinal flora. ACV treatments should *always* be followed up with several days of probiotics to help restore the intestinal flora. The intestinal flora is one of the bodies defense systems and if it gets compromized then the bird is wide open to secondary infections and problems.

you might want to read this: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/preventative-treatments.html


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

thanks, this is all very interesting to know....


----------



## .mpeg (Oct 6, 2010)

srtiels said:


> *The whole point is to adjust the PH so their crop is less hospitable to ailments especially crop stasis and yeast infections in chicks. Some people give their birds things like Novalsan. I can't see where ACV would be any more harsh than a disinfectant. *
> *-------------------------------------------*
> 
> Well I can speak from first hand experience and I have learned that you DO NOT put anything in the birds water. Some rules of thumb: If it ain't broke, don't fix it'
> ...


i thought acv was a probiotic? i was told to use it to help him build his immune system up, and the vet had no problem with me continuing to use it after he got better to help support his immune system because he got *very* sick during weaning and fledging and was on systemic antibiotics for almost 2 months straight (6ish-12ish weeks old, ended up not weaning fully until 12/13 weeks and missed out on 20g worth of growth)
he's been healthy since then, to my knowledge.


----------



## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*i thought acv was a probiotic?*
*----------------------------------------------*

No it is not a probiotic, and has no nutrient value and nothing to boost the immune system.

*Probiotics are: * And these not ACV should be used after an antibiotic treatment.

Not long ago I was researching probiotics and was dismayed to learn that it is not a word in the dictionary, but is a *term comprised of 2 words: Pro meaning 'for', and biotics meaning 'life'* And if you go looking in avian, animal, and human drug books the actual word _probiotics_ is not listed. Therefore probiotics is a term used descriptively that describes a class of non prescription oral medications/supplements (such as acidophilus, lactobacillus) which are used primarily to boost the population of live bacteria in the gastrointestinal (GI) tract which flourish inside the birds digestive tract. 

Probiotics can be used preventively during periods of stress, such as breeding, molting, when chicks are weaning. With a sick bird, pathogens (disease-causing bacteria) take the place of the good bacteria. They consist of naturally occurring organisms that aid in digestion and inhibit the production of disease producing bacteria. Probiotics help to supplement and replace used up beneficial bacteria in the GI tract. Thus what is happening, especially after antibiotic treatment, is the replenishment of good bacteria which acts to lower inhibit the levels of bad bacteria from becoming pathogenic. 

Probiotics such as lactobacillus also lower the pH. 

This is beneficial when dealing with slow crop, or when yeast or bacteria is suspected. When pH is reduced this in turn increases the effectiveness of existing good flora in the GI tract. I'm also learning that one of the reasons why heat is so beneficial to sick babies is because it helps to decrease the time needed to kill harmful pathogens when antibiotic and antifungals are used.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

ACV isn't a probiotic, and it's not really a disinfectant/antibiotic either. It'll kill some bacteria but not all, unlike some things that are frequently recommended like grape seed extract. That stuff will kill all the bacteria in the gut, and I shudder when I see people recommend it for soaking sprouts or keeping the water germ-free.


----------

