# Birdy bully!



## Flooffloofx2 (Feb 28, 2017)

Hello everyone! 
I'm wondering if anyone has recommendations for a problem I have discovered with my tiels. George and Mildred's previous owner claimed they were a bonded pair. However, after a bit of observation, I'm starting to think this is not the case, as they don't share or preen each other or even sleep on the same perch! 
I think they may be brother and sister however, as they have very similar color patterns. Is there a way to tell if they are siblings? They haven't had a vet visit yet as they are still getting settled in but I was thinking that when I take them for a health check a DNA test might be able to be done, however, I have no idea on cost or even if my avian vet has that as a service yet. 
This however, brings me to my problem, as the act like human siblings do, and constantly are fighting and most concerning Mildred keeps bullying George away from all food, toys or anything at all. When George goes to investigate or eat something Mildred is always in hot pursuit, even if she has just walked away from the food bowl. I have multiple food bowls but as soon as George shifts the the other one she chases him away eats a bit out of it and then leaves it be. George is smaller than she is and I am concerned this is because he is under eating. Luckily I happen to have two separate cages. I have given George the one that is slightly bigger and although tentative at first he seems to like the bigger cage. Mildred was extremely displeased at this however, and spent a good portion of the evening singing/yelling at me and over to George(who after a bit just started to ignore her). I would like to introduce both of them to the bigger cage eventually but I don't want Mildred to go back to being a bully. Any tips?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Keep them in separate cages but put the cages side by side so the birds can be close together when they want to. During out of cage time they can visit each other's cage, but if the bullying keeps up (and it probably will) they'll need to be separated for in-cage time. Some birds don't want to be too close together but they also don't want to be too far apart.

If they're actually brother and sister, this love/hate relationship is better than them wanting to make babies together.


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## Janalee (Jul 25, 2012)

*birdy bully*

Sorry to hear your birds are not getting along. I think moving George to a larger cage is a good idea. You could keep the cages close together so they can still see each other and maybe try reintroducing they later. As far as DNA testing goes, there are sites available on-line. I had Bennie's DNA checked to determine his gender. It cost only $25. You just have to pluck a few feathers from the bird's breast and send them to the lab. I am not sure if they would test to determine if the birds are siblings, but I am sure you could find out.
I hope George and Mildred will work out their differences.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

This lab says it can do relationship testing: http://www.healthgene.com/avian-dna-testing/avian-dna-relation/ It's not cheap though - it costs $88. The blood sample requirements also seem stricter than for gender testing.


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## EllenD (Oct 9, 2016)

I'm sorry you're having issues with your birds, but this is not uncommon at all. It makes absolutely no difference whether or not they are brother and sister at all, unless you are planning on breeding them, because you obviously do not want to have inbred chicks. This can cause a lot of health problems. But other than the breeding aspect there is no reason to bother finding out if they are brother and sister, as birds do not think the way we do. They have no concept of "being related" to other birds at all, and the behaviors that you are observing have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are brother and sister, they are rather issues of hormones, dominance, and territoriality. They may very well have been a "bonded pair" of birds but not a mating pair. Before I explain this concept just keep in mind that birds will mate with their siblings, their parents, etc. because once again they have absolutely no concept of being "blood relatives" with each other. The fact that you observed their behavior as "how human siblings act towards one another" has nothing to do with their genetics at all, it's just how their relationship is at this point. Also the fact that their markings may look similar means very little either in regards to their blood relation. Did you ask their prior owner where he got them? If he bought them from a breeder or a pet shop at the same time as babies and they look similar then yes, they probably are from the same clutch and are siblings. If he got them from two different places or at two different times then obviously they are not related. That being said, I doubt you are planning on breeding them anyway, so it makes no difference.

Two birds can have several different types of interaction with each other. Just because you put two birds together in the same cage does not mean they will get along, and many people mistakingly think that birds think like dogs-that they can put a male with a female of the same species together and they will automatically breed and have babies. So a lot of people end up with a bird, either they inherit it or they buy it as a pet, and they get the idea that they can make a lot of "easy money" by getting a bird of the opposite sex so that they can have babies. They think the parents will raise the babies, that they will have to do nothing but buy them food, and in 8 weeks they'll have babies to sell for quick money. But birds are very much like humans in regards to their relationships with each other. There are a few possibilities that can happen when two birds are put together: they may absolutely hate each other to the point that they are violent, they may hate each other and just ignore each other completely except for little fights when they get in each other's way, they may just tolerate each other with no fighting between them at all but also no interaction of any kind, they may really like/love each other and bond to each other but not in a sexual way, or they may really like/love and bond with each other and have a sexual component to their relationship making them a "mating pair". My guess about what type of relationship your birds have had is that their original owner is correct, they were raised together and they bonded with each other, but they were not a mating pair. They probably preened each other and slept next to each other at one point, and then something changed their relationship: HORMONES!

Often times with a bonded pair of birds, or even a pair of birds that are not bonded but get along or tolerate each other, there is one of the birds that goes into "breeding season" or "breeding mode" and wants to mate with the other bird. But just like humans, if one of the birds is not interested in mating with the other one then they simply will not let them mate with them. And it can be the male or the female that wants to mate, and it can be the male or the female that doesn't want to mate and won't allow it to happen. Typically when this happens fighting ensues, and the pair stop getting along and can become very violent, territorial, and jealous. A bird that has raging hormones can become very aggressive to not only other birds but often with their humans as well. This is a common question we see on the forum, a person who is heartbroken because their sweet, cuddly bird who they love like their own child is suddenly biting them, lunging at them, will not allow them to touch them, screams at them, and the person thinks that the bird they love all of a sudden hates them. While it's very difficult to not take this personally, the bird does not hate them and does not mean to purposely bite them, their bird still loves them very much, however their hormones are raging and their bodies are causing them to go a little crazy, lol. This typically lasts for a month or so and can happen twice a year or can go on indefinitely, it just depends on the bird. The good news for owners experiencing this is there are ways to knock their bird out of breeding mode and to get their hormones to settle down. Most people find that their birds get back to being themselves relatively quickly.

In your situation you have two birds that I don't believe were ever a mating pair but could very well have been a bonded pair of birds, as their prior owner told you they were. And something has happened that has caused one or both of them to become aggressive towards the other one. There are several reasons that this can happen, and I don't know how old your birds are, but my guess would be that either one of your birds wants to mate with the other one and the other one doesn't want that, or it may also possibly be a jealousy issue regarding you and their new home. 

Either way, regardless of the cause of the new aggression, you absolutely MUST separate your two birds into two different cages, and you must only let them out of their cages together if you are supervising the ENTIRE time. Do not let them alone together at any point because it is not unusual for a bird to severely injured or worse by an aggressive mate. As already mentioned you can put their cages next to each other and see how they behave. Listen to see if they continue to talk to each other, if they sit close to each other in their respective cages, or if one of your birds totally ignores the other, or if one is still trying to hurt the other through the cage bars. Once they are in separate cages and their cages are sitting next to each other, you should be able to tell who is the aggressor, whether one of them doesn't want anything to do with the other, etc. 

I suggest getting them both an appointment with a certified avian vet ASAP for well-birdy checkups, you should have this done at least once a year anyway in order to try to catch illnesses early enough to treat them successfully, I don't know how much bird experience you have but it's important to know that birds instinctively hide illnesses and pain for as long as they can, and they're good at it. It is seen as a sign of weakness in the wild, and as these types of birds are prey, showing weakness will get them killed, get their flock killed, and get their flock to abandon them. They maintain these natural instincts and behaviors in captivity very well, so it's very common for people to not have any idea that their bird is sick or injured. Often times the bird will suddenly show symptoms of being sick and their owner decides to wait and see if they get better, when in reality their bird has been sick for a long time and by the time the bird is outwardly showing symptoms of being sick they are actually VERY SICK. Often at this point it's too late to help the bird. So yearly or bi-yearly well-birdy checkups with fecal smears (wet mounts), gram stains, and depending on your avian vet, basic blood work. In your current situation it may very well be that one of your birds is sick and this is causing their aggression. There are a million different reasons that can cause this behavior to occur, I believe it's a hormonal problem, but you never know. Please be sure to take your birds to a "certified" avian vet (preferably), or if it's all that is available a "qualified" avian vet only, general vets and "exotic" vets that "see birds" most of the time have very little experience with treating birds, and I can't tell you how many birds I've seen die from easy treatable illnesses or injuries because their owner took them to a general vet or an exotics vet and they misdiagnosed the bird's illness, prescribed the wrong antibiotics because they failed to do a culture and sensitivity or blood work because they didn't know how to take blood from a bird, etc. 

Please use the search bar here on the forum to lookup "Solar Schedule" and "Hormonal Aggression". Getting both your birds on a strict solar schedule is the easiest, quickest, most successful way to knock them out of breeding season and to keep them out of it. There are also many other changes you can make to try to keep their hormones at bay, and this forum has a lot of in-depth information if you search for it. In the meantime please keep your birds in two separate cages, supervise all of their out of cage time together, and you may have to get used to the idea of them never being able to be housed together again. Hopefully you can get it worked out by getting their hormones under control, but sometimes two birds just can't be put together. Their safety is more important.


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