# help/advice for babies



## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi, I have 2 babies, aptly named yellow & white due to their down feathers. Yellow born Nov 28 & white Nov 29, which makes then 9 & 8 days old. Two additional eggs have not hatched, but I have left these in the nest so that they parent's don't get confused & stop going in. 
I have a concern that white is taking in too much food, and yellow not enough. White is considerably larger than yellow, though both are growing. Today whites crop was HUGE. Bigger than the lower half of his body it seems. The parents don't want to eat anything other than seed & spinach (they LOVE spinach) I've tried softer foods such as moistened breeder pellets, egg & biscuit mix, grated apple, grated carrot, soggy bread etc but they won't touch it. The crop is full of seed & flecks of spinach, but I wonder if they are getting enough moisture for digestion. They are pooping ok, I had them out & white pooped a few times, lots of undigested seed though, yellows poo seems to be more digested/runny. 
My main query is, can the crop get too big? If the crop is full, does the baby still beg for food out of habit or could this be a digestive issue?
How long would it be safe to have the baby away from the parents, if I wanted to see if the crop will go down & ensure it isn't being overfed? I think they just keep feeding it, & given its larger & stronger than the older yellow bird, it gets more attention.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Could you post a picture showing the baby standing on its feet? I'm not used to seeing them lying on their backs, and it makes it hard to tell whether it's normal or not. It looks like the crop MIGHT be overstretched, and it looks like the skin might be red (which is a sign of dehydration). I'm also not sure whether the dark streaks on the abdomen are normal or not. If you could post a recent picture of both babies, we can also see whether the development of the other chick looks normal. 

Try giving your parent birds some whole-grain bread that is fresh (meaning soft, not hard and dry) but not soaked with any kind of liquid. The babies shouldn't have undigested seed in their poop. If your parents will eat seed that is soaked or lightly sprouted (see http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=9019 ) this will be easier for the babies to digest than hard dry seed. If you could assist feed some liquid to the babies (especially White) this might help improve digestion.

You could also try offering them cooked whole grains (like wheat). This will be softer than dry seed but not as wet as soaked seed. Natural-foods grocery stores often have a variety of whole grains in bulk bins where you can buy as much or as little as you want, and all of them are tiel-safe. Beans are more complicated, as the sprouting link explains.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

P.S. I know that there are some parrot species (for example budgies) where it's normal for the babies to lie on their back. But it's not natural for cockatiel chicks. They're always up on their feet even when they're sleeping - the face might be plonked into the bedding but the feet will be under the body. A chick that's lying on its back has either fallen and can't get up, or it has a major health problem. So I'd recommend that you hold babies in the upright position and not on the back like it is in the picture. With a crop that full there might be an aspiration risk.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks for the reply, I gave the white bird a drop of water yesterday after doing some research, and it seems to helped a bit. His poops were more digested after a little while & crop seemed smaller & less red. This morning the amount of food in the crop has definitely gone down, there is what seems to be an air pocket though, I have noticed them on this one before & they go away ok, I'll keep an eye on it. 
Yellow seems to be bigger today, closer in size to white, so that's good, he must be catching up.
Is it normal for their toes to be curled at this age? They can stand and walk/wobble no problems, have been doing so since they were born. The mother has one toe which curls around & faces up. 
I have been giving them multigrain bread fresh as well, they take one or two nibbles and thats it. They really are stubborn. I might try sprouting some seed/grains for them, I read the other post & it says not to leave them in too long though if it's hot. It's summer here & reaching over 30 C through the day, so that limits the time I guess which is hard when I'm at work. 
Sorry about the pic on their back, it was only to get a gauge of the crop size, as they hunch it was difficult to get a photo that showed it with them standing up. 
Have taken some pics this morning, looking much better.
Having seen other peoples baby logs, it does seem as though they are a little behind in development, no sign of any crest feathers, pin feathers & no eyes opening, they are 10 & 9 days old today. Yellow does have the tiniest slit in his eye lid, but that's been there since around day 6/7.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The toes shouldn't be curled up like that, and toe-curling can be caused by malnutrition. It sounds like there really were some digestive issues and that would be part of the nutrition problem. The parents' diet is not the greatest either, although I realize that you're doing the best you can with a pair of stubborn birds. If you can assist feed the babies some handfeeding formula, it will help them get more nutrients. If you can convince the parents to eat some cooked egg that will also be helpful - it's loaded with nutrients, and most breeding birds love it. I beat up a raw egg in a bowl, nuke it in the microwave until it's cooked, then chop it up in pieces and store it in the freezer. Then I take some out whenever I want to give it to the birds.

I agree that the babies look underdeveloped for their age - again, this is probably a digestion and nutrition issue, but they will catch up eventually if their food and nutrition intake improves. Susanne (srtiels) is the biggest expert on baby problems, and this article on her website: http://www.justcockatiels.net/watch-me-grow.html shows the typical growth and development pattern. This baby was heavier than average so don't expect your babies to match the weights, but everything else is normal. 

If you could talk to srtiels she could advise you on any other issues that might be present. She's a moderator on this website but isn't here very often. It's much easier to reach her on her Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/groups/ICR.unite/ but right now she has the flu so even there you may not be able to talk to her right away.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

P.S. Where are you located? If you're in the US or Canada, you can offer Nutriberries to the parents. They're nutritionally equivalent to pellets but they look like seed balls. Most cockatiels love them, although it can take some time to accept them. Nutriberries aren't a soft, easy to digest food but they do have a lot more nutrients than ordinary seed.

It can take a very long time to convince a bird to eat new foods, but it's worthwhile to keep up the effort and encourage them to eat pellets, vegetables, soft foods, etc. Acceptance might come too late to help this clutch, but any future clutches will have a better diet and it's good for the parent birds too.


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Such tiny little babies! 
Looking back at my records I can see that they are smaller than my first three chicks, but very close to the size of my last chick. He was naked and bald for a very long time but then he started catching up and now he looks absolutely normal. 
I am a complete novice to babies so there is nothing I can contribute to help, but if you have the time and the inclination I strongly suggest that you post at least once a day with pictures, observations and weight records. It helped me to get priceless advice from more experienced members, and having everything in the same place is still useful for me to check on things when I need to.
All my love to White and Yellow


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Tielfan, what about wet warm eggfood? my parents ate that easily, would it be good in this case?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

A moderate amount would be good if the parents will eat it, but there's no guarantee that they will. Eggfood is mostly for canaries, finches, and other birds that eat a lot of insects in the wild, and has the large amount of protein and other nutrients that come from animal foods. Cockatiels are mostly seed eaters; it's known that wild tiels do eat some insects but we don't know how much or the timing of it. I suspect that insects might mostly be a breeding food for cockatiels, so it's appropriate to offer egg or egg food as a replacement for the bugs. But apparently insects aren't a huge part of their diet so it's best not to feed them a huge amount of egg.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

This was this afternoon, full to the brim again!


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm actually located in Australia, so we are in the start of summer, and it's a doozy, has been since the start of spring, ridiculously dry and hot.
New to the forum, it seems to be the most informative I've come across so I'm hoping the advice I get here will help the bubbas (and me!) get through this. 
I might try the egg in the morning, they got some fresh radish leaves from the garden (washed very well) today along with their top up of spinach (which they demolished), eggfood (called egg & biscuit here), bread and pellets (didn't touch any of those), they love anything green and leafy, i guess that's better than nothing. they didn't like banana I gave them yesterday either. 
I've been thinking about picking up some hand feeding formula, but I have no idea how to go about hand feeding and it frankly scares the crap out of me! I had a friend who's cockatiels rejected their only baby and she had to hand feed - long story short, it accidentally aspirated on the food and passed away. Probably 8 years ago and she still gets sad thinking about it and blames herself.

I need to get a set of digital scales to monitor their weight, i recently bought my first house and am a little 'object' poor and was rather unprepared for the eggs to actually hatch, given they'd been doing this for 3-4yrs with no success!

I have only had one baby before, going back 6-7yrs (which I believe could actually be the mother of these babies - my mother had a cockatiel baby around the same time and they turned out identical, one flew off at the start of the year, but they were so alike I can't tell which one it is, bad mumma I am) that baby was raised mainly by it's father, as it's mum became egg bound and passed away shortly after it was born, i was unaware there was a baby until I found her dead :-( it had started to get it's pin feathers already, so I guess it was already 2 or more wks old. 

Thankyou so much for all the helpful advice so far. I will keep persevering with the wetter foods in the hope that they might start to be ok with them, and will keep you updated on their progress.
Oh, there was one foot forward - Yellow has a slit in his other eye today, so that must be good, so both eyes have started to split, I might see some beautiful eyes soon enough and he can see who's been chatting to him all the time  
**fingers and toes crossed (and curled)**


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I'm not an expert on these matters but that baby does look overfull to me. If you can join ICR at https://www.facebook.com/groups/ICR.unite/ and talk to Susanne, she can advise you better than I can. Unfortunately she has the flu right now and might not be available to talk right away.

Since they love anything green and leafy, give them a nice variety of greens. If you can get chard (silverbeet), it's an excellent breeding food - my cockatiels go crazy for it when they're breeding. Kale and collard greens are also excellent.

Here's one of my hens demolishing some red chard during breeding season. I call this photo "Velociraptor Shodu" because she looks like a blood-stained velociraptor devouring her latest victim:


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have joined the page but see Susanne is still away sick, I managed to grab some silver beet this afternoon, only the green variety as its all they had.
The babies looked ok this afternoon, white was a bit full but not overly like he has been. They are slowly growing, I've done a comparison. Of course they are still developmentally slow for their age, but if they can keep this up, hopefully they'll get there eventually.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

bobobubu said:


> Such tiny little babies!
> Looking back at my records I can see that they are smaller than my first three chicks, but very close to the size of my last chick. He was naked and bald for a very long time but then he started catching up and now he looks absolutely normal.
> I am a complete novice to babies so there is nothing I can contribute to help, but if you have the time and the inclination I strongly suggest that you post at least once a day with pictures, observations and weight records. It helped me to get priceless advice from more experienced members, and having everything in the same place is still useful for me to check on things when I need to.
> All my love to White and Yellow


Hi bobobubu, I have read your little blog type update for your chicks & yes my two are both very similar to your last chick, all yours turned out absolutely beautiful btw. 
I weighed them this morning after running out last night & buying myself a set of digital scales. The weights aren't good, although their crops were mostly empty first thing this morning. 
White had another huge air bubble which made his crop look big, but had about the same amount of food as yellow in there. 
White is 11 days - 23g
Yellow is 12 days - 16g
I'll weigh them each night & morning to ensure they are growing. They have definitely grown in size as per comparison with my hand, just not as fast as they should, obviously.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

This afternoons weigh in. 
White 34g (+11g)
Yellow 22g (+6g)
White has an eye slit on one side now AND I can see his crest beginning to appear! There are also some darker spots appearing on his wings & back which I'm assuming is the beginning of the pin feathers.


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Come on little babies, grow! 
I can't blame you, not looking forward to hand feeding... I tried but I was petrified and the baby wasn't having any of it... And mine was already considerably older that White and Yellow! 


Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It looks like white's toes are starting to uncurl, which is good. They're definitely making progress!


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

This mornings weigh in. 
White 28g (+5g)
Yellow 19g (+3g)
Have done comparison to same time yesterday which would be closest to same crop size. 
Whites wing tips are dark now & his crest looks raised & about to break through. gives me more hope. Yellow was quite 'hissy' today too, much more than yesterday. 
White sounds like he's laughing when he hisses at me, so I call him giggles now. 
His crop keeps filling with air, when he husses etc, it puffs up. I massage it back out & it goes back to normal but then he hisses again & it fills with air again, I'm wondering if it could be a small perforation or something? The crop contents feel fine, not gluggy or hard, they are soft & move freely. I gave a few drops of water this morning to aid with digestion & make sure they are getting fluids, I'll try to find some coconut water, but all the ones I've seen have added sugar, I'm not sure that would be any good for them.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

tielfan said:


> It looks like white's toes are starting to uncurl, which is good. They're definitely making progress!



Yes, white toes are almost fully uncurled now, I'm very happy. Yellows aren't as bad as they were, so I'm hoping he continues to improve too.















White & Yellow say thank you for your help & support!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

It might be an air sac rupture. Susanne is the expert on this so I hope she comes back soon. If you go ahead and post on ICR, it's possible that she might see it sooner or that someone else can advise you better than I can. Providing a link to this thread will help them see what's happened so far.


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Hey they are definitely growing! Mr. White looks particularly good  

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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

White 40g (+6g)
Yellow 28g (+6g)
Comparison is to yesterday's afternoon shot, full crop. 
Gorgeous little eyes appearing, some dark spots on yellow now & a hint of crest too. Toes beginning to uncurl.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Today's morning weigh in.
White 32g (+4g)
Yellow 26g (+7g)
After having some coconut water last night their crops felt amazingly soft this morning. Such a difference. Gave them some more this morning before popping them back in the box after play time. 
White has a spike crest & yellows is starting too, along with some wing action!








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Yellow had a bit of dried food in his mouth & around it this morning that I managed to get out, and dried food/poop on his closed eye, I cleaned that off with a moistened q-tip & he seemed to try & open it already.
White had food dried up blocking one nostril, cleaned that off too, he didn't like that, but seemed relieved after he realised he could breathe again.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

This morning. 
White 39g (+7g)
Yellow 26g (+0g)

I started assist feeding last night & their crops were the emptiest I've seen this morning, which could account for yellows non-gain. Fed again this morning, massaged through the crop contents that were still there, & popped them back. Have been mixing up the hand rearing food with half boiled water & half coconut water (and allowing to cool as required).
All eyes are open now, they are acting much stronger, strong hiss, lots of movement, feathers starting to come out & I'm feeling much more confident about how they are progressing. I'm totally in love with these two!


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Have you been able to post on the facebook group? It looks to me that you are doing a great job anyway, but there are some very useful threads there.
A lady who posted a couple of days before me was having a similar problem to mine, I printed the entire thread and read it a couple of times. It helped me a lot.
Every time I see your babies I think of Reservoir Dogs :lol:

Mr Blonde...


... and Mr White


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have posted on there and had some input from jade. I started assist feeding & that seems to be helping, though I had to go out today & popped them back in with the parents & when I got home 4hrs later their crops were so so full, it's been about 3hrs (i took them out) & it's only half empty. I might do a small feed soon, even just some liquids, just to get things flowing.
The bubbas are growing so much, they both stood up tall today when i had them out & started flapping their wings like crazy, it was so cute! They love to preen themselves, each other & me too, I'll lay them on my chest & they snuggle up under my chin & nibble on me.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Update - it's been 5 days since the last update. My baldy fellows are covered in pin feathers now, some of whites pin feathers have started to open & I can see feathers emerging. Very exciting.


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## Amz (Apr 10, 2013)

They look sooo much better than they did when you first posted!  And Yellow looks a lot better, too. They look so happy! I'm sure they'll be beautiful.

Any clues to mutations yet?


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Amz said:


> They look sooo much better than they did when you first posted!  And Yellow looks a lot better, too. They look so happy! I'm sure they'll be beautiful.
> 
> Any clues to mutations yet?


I'm not great with mutations, it all confuses me, but mother is a pearl split to pied & father is a grey split to whiteface.
"White" looks to be a whiteface pearl with the grey & white spikes coming through, if a male though he will lose the pearls of course.
"yellow" has every colour coming through so I have no idea what it will end up as! The crest is mostly grey with yellow at the front & now white on the tips, his wings are mostly grey & white with a sprinkling of yellow on the tops. Will be interesting to see what happens as the feathers come out properly for sure.

They are both gorgeous & I'm so attached, they are very cuddly already. Looks like I need to buy more pet cages to keep these fellows inside. Their parents are aviary birds & not tame at all.


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

They have grown so much! You're gonna have two beauties 

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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

My beautiful babies. Parents stopped feeding them on Saturday 21st, so they have become my full time babies.
White is a gorgeous pearl (fingers crossed she's a girl & will keep her pearls) 
Yellow now has a name - Sunny. He's very vocal (again I'm assuming a boy) very active, blowout as many feathers, but acts older & much bolder than white. He's still a little behind on weight, but they are much closer in size now. After a feed they are almost cracking 100g. I'm so proud of them.


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Wow those are some big babies! Mine only ever got to 80-90 grams!

I believe your male must be pearl or split to pearl to have pearl babies. Since white is WF, mom must be split to WF too.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Fredandiris said:


> Wow those are some big babies! Mine only ever got to 80-90 grams!
> 
> I believe your male must be pearl or split to pearl to have pearl babies. Since white is WF, mom must be split to WF too.


I thought they were fairly small! Haha, well that's good to hear. I've read many pages saying babies at around 20days should be closer to 100g, so I was worried when mine were only around half that weight at that age. 

Yes mum is split WF, so is dad & mum is visual pearl, dad I'm not sure, but from the babies I'd say he is a pearl too (he'd lost his pearls already when i got him) the babies are so gorgeous! Think I may have to get them a cage soon, they have an open top crate covered with a towel big enough for them to stand & flap their wings. They haven't tried to fly, but once they do it will be cage time as I have dogs that might not like them flying around (though one of my dogs loves to sit on my lap while I feed the babies & is mesmerized by them) they are gentle dogs & I've introduced them from a young age so they get used to them but would never ever leave them alone together for even a second.


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

I think those are more show-quality birds, rather than pet birds. I'm pretty sure show birds are supposed to be around 120g. My birds weaned out between 80-90 grams and that's fairly normal, especially considering mom is around 95g and dad is a small 80g. Also, pearls tend to be bigger boned birds, as well as cinnamons. 

I can't remember when I moved my babies to their fledging cage... I think right before the oldest one took his first flight. Before that I had placed a ladder in their brooder so they could practice their perching skills. My god are they clumsy when they're young. 

As a warning, they will fly around when you try to feed them. I suggest going into a separate room from the dogs when feeding so that there are no chances of a baby getting snapped out of the air. Also, try to get them to fly around before feeding. They probably won't listen to you but it never hurts to try hahah. 

Once they know they can use their wings they're pretty much impossible to stop. Imagine 5 babies flying around the house. It's a chaotic situation. Oh, and the separate room feeding reduces the chances of having to go on baby hunts. My babies would always end up in the weirdest places, like behind the sofa, in the fake fruit basket, on the window sill that's nearly impossible to reach... everywhere. It's hilarious but frustrating at the same time because they tend to stay quiet when they get lost.


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## tace86 (Dec 5, 2013)

Now that they have got their feathers they are sitting around the mid 80s, I read they do lose a bit, so I think they're just about fully grown now.
They are very clumsy! Sookie (WF) is a better flyer, she lands a little nicer, we started flying lessons in the confines of my bedroom, only from low height onto the bed for a soft landing. Sunny just belly flops, his tail is still fairly short, he doesn't sit well on a finger yet either. They'll jump onto my flat hand on command now, still working on just a finger. I might upgrade to a cage soon, they can almost jump out of the crate now when they see me with food. 

Is it strange that my babies don't call out when they are hungry? They don't start calling until they see me with the cup of their food (they definitely have good lungs), I think this is why the parents stopped feeding them, they've never called out for food until they actually see it, so when the parents started spending more time out of the box, the babies wouldnt call for them to come back. 

They have started nibbling seed & millet now, they play with spinach but don't take any bites, just throw it around. But I'd say their progress is right on track for their age, given their slow start. 

I know what you mean about the staying quiet, I had a tiel when I was a kid who had free roam of the house, he was super cheeky & would get into everything. One day we lost him & thought he'd somehow got out, I was distraught, he was my baby, it wasn't until several hours later we heard him peep from the linen cupboard. Cheeky boy had got locked in & just kept quiet!


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## Fredandiris (Nov 27, 2012)

Awwww they're so cute! Their pose reminds me of that video, Baby Cockaiels First 30 Days. And that look they're giving the camera haha, it's hilarious.

I just started my birds off on finger perching haha. I tried to get them use to grabbing as well, so that when it came time for a flight feather trimming they wouldn't have as tough of a time. I spread out their wings while holding them so that they would be more accustomed to it later. I also touched their toes a lot so they would get used to that as well.

About the feeding...from what I remember, the babies would beg when they saw me but stop if they realized I wasn't feeding them. The youngest baby would beg a lot though. I attributed that to her being the youngest.


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