# Has anyone heard of AZITHROMYCIN



## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Took Lacey and Snowy to the Avian Vets on tuesday as they were looking lethargic and there feathers plumped up, off their food but no other symptoms. Vet quoted me £540 to run some tests on 1 of them but also said lacey/snowy would need a general anaesethic to do the tests and as she/he was weak would pobably not survive the procedure. My other option was to try them on a broad spectrum antibiotic to see if it worked, which i decided to try instead of risking losing one of them. Within 36 hours both were looking normal, sat back up on their perches and eating again, I now have Luey and Heathy in hospital cages too as they presented in the same way the following day. I had enough antibiotic so all 4 are on it now! In one way i wish the vet had been more helpful, as i am now treating 4 birds for an unknown illness. The vet i used is the best within miles and comes highly rated by many including other vets in our area, so I should have faith in them but am feeling a bit let down. Any advice or knowlege of this antibiotic and what it is usually used for would be much appreciated  The other 15 birds in the aviary all seem fit and well wth no signs of illness at all, I am keeping a very close eye on them! Thanks Emma


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I looked it up...I am not familiar with it or have used it. Another name for it is Zithromax. You might do a Google search on the meds. EDIT...I looked in another book and it said that it is a treatment for chlamydiosis. Doxycycline is the more common medication used now. If so, I would suggest to treat all the birds.

I would get a second opinion. Do you have just a plain old regular vet? If so, ask them if their lab can do cultures on avians/cockatiels, and what the cultures cost. In the US this is usually anywhere between $18-25.00 What I would suggest is having a culture done. It will take a couple days to come back. BUT a culture report will lists all the bacteria and yeast in the body, and what levels they are. If any are too high they are listed as pathogenic, and the culture report will list several antibiotics or medications that are effective and it will also list which medications they are resistant to...which means the ineffective ones. If medications are needed, then you can get them from the vet.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks srtiels  The antibiotic is AZITHROMYCIN. 

2 are 3 years old 2 are 2 years. 

When i phoned my regular vet, that we use for our 2 dogs, 2 cats and rabbit, I was advised that other than clipping their nails they do not see birds, but will refer them to the avian vets at a cost of £100 for the referal, so I was advised off the record to register the birds with the avian vet to avoid the referal fee. 

I do have another vet where i live so I will give them a ring and ask, but they seem to have an agreement here that if your pet is registered with another vet they will refuse to see them, its worth a shot though. 

Can you explain what a culture is and how the sample is taken ? so i sound like i know what im tlking about when i ring up 

Thanks again Emma


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Hi...I updated my post above with the little I found on the med. If you have another bird that is displaying the same symptoms, but has not been on the medication see if you can find a vet that has a lab that does avian cultures and have a cilture run. Or...I just thought of something... Go to this site: http://www.avianbiotech.co.uk/ They have testing kits: http://www.avianbiotech.co.uk/disease_testing.asp Since the medication that you are using is for Chlamydia, it might be wise to confirm this. Usually in order to not get a false negative reading the testing should be on a bird that has not been treated.

Most vets know what a culture is. It is a swabbed sample taken from the cloaca/vent (for the poop) or from the crop.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Hi I have phoned a couple of vets, one not very helpful and the other although not having an avian vet at the practice has offered to do some research and phone me back, they were not familiar with culture testing but only blood sample testing which they say requires the anaesetic, I am thinking we do things differently in the UK  I will wait to see what they come up with. 
I have looked at the biotech website and tried calling them but no answer, so i have sent them an email as under Chlamydia it mentions a full blood sample is required so i have asked if they can do culture testing for Chlamydia.
The only problem i have then is that all 4 birds showing signs of illness are now on the antibiotics and the other birds all look fine. (fingers crossed)


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

The vet has just called back, and they have spoke to another avian specialist who is quite some distance from me and i have been avised that the only option is anasethic or to sacrifice one of my birds for a postmortem!!!!! I have been given the specilaists mobile number to call him direct so will let you know how i get on but Im thinking that putting a bird under anaesetic who is on the mend is probably pointless :S


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## tielmom (Aug 4, 2010)

Oh what a horrible thing to have to go through. They seem pretty heartless to say something like that, but I do know what they are saying...it just seems it came out so cold. I worked in a vets office and they grow so immune to this kind of stuff that it does not affect them in the least to tell an owner such horrible news
I know you do not want to do the postmortem round, because how can you sacrifice one of your tiels for the benefit of the others. I can hardly believe there is nothing else they can do, I mean they do not do CULTURES? All they have to do is swab the crop or vent area like srtiel said and send it into a lab for results. We did this ALL the time at the vet office I worked at and we did not have to put them under...I guess medicine practices are different here in the US...I really wish you had more options...Please keep us posted on how your tiels are doing.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Many times a blood sample is clipping the nail near the quick and putting a drop of blood on the card supplied with their free testing kits. Usually Avian Biotiech has good clear instructions.

I don't understand why they want to put the bird under anesthetic. Or sacrificing a bird. The only reason would be to look at the organs such as the liver or spleen to see if there is evidence of a disease pathogen. BUT, bloodwork or cultures should be done to warrent this...and the other suugested things by the vet ONLY as a last resort. IF one dies then I would submit it for necropsy. 

If this vet has not done bloodwork or cultures, he is just guessing at the problem, and since the antibiotic is a broad spectrum antibiotic, it is effective against numerous bacteria. So a broad spectrum antibiotic is a 'catch-all' treatment when a vet is shooting in the dark.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks tielmom and srtiels.

I am feeling very frustrated, you are advised to test all your birds before treating, surely you cant be expected to put all of them under ansethic to test them! Looks like they will be on oral antibiotics twice a day for several weeks with no known diagnosis! If any in the aviary look sick i will contact the avian specialist and let him take the blood work under anasethic just to put my mind at reast with what i am dealing with. 

Fingers crossed avian biotech will come back to me soon, but i have pasted what i read on their website below, so looks doubtful they will be able to help here in the uk 



Sample:
When testing individual birds, a whole blood sample is recommended in conjunction with a cloacal and/or throat swab when possible. If the sample tests positive the bird should be placed in quarantine and treatment should be begun immediately.

**Disease testing by blood can only be performed using blood collected in tubes.

Will keep you posted, Thanks for your advice and support Em x


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

As to the vet...the bird DOES NOT have to be put under for the blood. What you have is a vet that is doing needless things to jack-up a bill....IMHO!

As to avian biotech, the blood in a tube is a tiny glass cylinder, as thin as a spaghetti noodle, and works by capulary action. This means that when a blood drop is placed at the tip of the tube opening it sucks it in. And they also have the free swabs, with instructions. When you talk to them you can explain what you need and how many testing kits to be sent. You are only charged for the testing when you send back the samples.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks srtiels, hopefully i will hear back soon  Im guessing you prick the foot to get the blood? or have i got that completely wrong? It wasn't the cost that put me off it was the uneccessary trauma  Mind you £500 per bird I would have needed a bank loan! 

ps IMAO???


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I think it is the tip of the toenail cut up far enough to get it to bleed. If you hold a toe close to a strong light you can see a center core in the nail...which is the blood supply.

500 a bird *IS* excessive!


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

GOOD NEWS  

Spoke to Avian Biotech ~ Asked about the blood sample testing for chlamydia, explained what had happened at the vets and the antibiotic they are on, he advised a faeces swab was all that was needed and the antibiotic they are on will not affect the readings this early on in the course of treatment  £13 per bird  

They were pleased to know i was recommended to them via this forum from the USA  

Thanks srtiels 

Will keep you posted


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

YAY!...I am glad you got ahold of them. At least this will give you some peace of mind, and let you know if there is a real problem or not. This way if you have the test results you can better talk to a vet on what is going on and get just the meds for treatments.

I use AvianBiotech to sex all my mousebirds. I wished I had known about them years ago when I had vets having me needlessly treat for 'Suspected' ilnneses.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Im already dreading the problem of convincing a vet to give me meds based on tests done outside of there procedures! Hopefully the test will be clear  I had already found them via google to DNA test my baby one, but had no idea they made disease testing so easy too  Ordered the DNA test kit whilst i was on the phone so hopefully will be able to give my baby one a name at the moment he reacts to "BIRD" lol


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

In the US we have a place to order online: http://www.allbirdproducts.com/bird_medication.html Do you have an online All Birds Products in England? If so, once you know what you are dealing with, you can order the meds. online. I med you are using now is a very old one, and I have not heard of it being used for years in the US.


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## Mentha (Jul 11, 2010)

Here are a couple lists of avian vets in UK, maybe one is close to you. You may also be able to contact the websites to see if there are any vet supplies that would ship medications. You may also contact your local zoo and see if they know of any place that might ship meds. 

http://www.parrotpassionsuk.com/
http://www.unitedparrotbreeders.co.uk/avianvets.html


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## Jess (Jun 20, 2010)

I'm guessing it's Great Western Referrals by the stuff they want to do and the prices they charge. A friend of mine used to go there alot, she doesn't anymore, feels very bitter about being ripped off and lost alot of birds there under aneasetic.

You will get proof of the result (a certificate) so that is good enough for the vet, probably alot of vets use avain biotech but charge the customer a hefty fee!


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks Srtiels, We dont have the ability here to buy online without a vet prescription, we can order from over seas, but it is usually unrecognised sites who could be selling anything in a bottle labled with what you think your getting! I will see if i can find a vet who is helpful once i have the test results back.

Thanks Mentha, I have exhausted the ones within 100 miles of me, they all say they can not test without a anaesetic  and they all seem to know each other prob due to us not having that many specialists here! 

Hi Jess ~ Yes it was GWR  I dont suppose you know where your friend goes now? 

When i phoned Avian Biotech to ask about blood testing, they adivsed me that testing by blood was pointless, as by the time they recieve the sample to test the bird is already dead! and that swab testing was far better for early indications. I never thought to ask what he meant but thinking about it if they have to put a bird under over here at every vets to get blood then its no wonder most samples they get is for a deceased bird!


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Yay...Jess posted  He is very good with birds and info in your country.

As to online meds, the onese that I have received over the years from All Birds Products have been the real medication.

Quite possibly Avian Biotech may be able to suggest some labs that you can go to independently for cultures (which as done by swabs) if your tests show they are clear of chlymidia. The cultures would show other bacteria that can be problematic, and also list which medications are effective and ineffective.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks srtiels 

I will ask about further testing once i get the results  Its August bank holiday weekend here, so the earliest I will get the kits is Tuesday, I will do he swabs straight away and return via next day delivery to hopefully speed things up 

I have asked the US site you posted if they ship to the UK, but Im guessing they probably dont due to Cutom Laws. The sites we can order from are mainly European and advertise as providing prescription meds for humans such as viagra etc


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

LOL....many of the antibiotic meds used by birds _*are*_ human meds. Many years ago Cipro was used, and since it was so successful with dogs and cats it was marketed under the name of Baytil for veterinary use. In learning this, in the past once I knew what medications I needed to have on hand I would ask my 'human' Dr. to write presecriptions to pick ip at the pharmacy...as a back up plan.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

LOL  My Dr resents writing prescriptions for humans so cant see him being has obliging as yours  If i do get someone willing to ship to uk, it would be handy to know what else i could order to keep has "just in case" meds


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## Jess (Jun 20, 2010)

Chine House in Leicester, I went there once though and wasn't impressed, found the reception staff rude and the exotic vet not much better so me and my friend have to agree to disagree about the place!
It's tricky for you at the moment, they really need to be on meds now if they are ill, probably baytril would be the best thing to try (needs to come from the vet) It may well do the trick, you tend to know within a few days if it has worked although sometimes they can pick up for a couple of days then go downhill again, then you know it's the wrong drug.
If you are looking for doxycycline you could get doxy-p 15mg tabs from vetafarm (they would need to be cut to sized and crushed to powder with a tiny drop of water to be administered.) They also do a powder called pssitavet for in water treatments but it looks greeny/blue, ornicure sachets might be better, pm me if you need any links or have any questions on what to do with tablets. Vetafarm also do a good treatment called megabac-s for avain gastric yeast or megabacteria as it used to be called.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks Jess  I have PM'd you


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## Jess (Jun 20, 2010)

Pm'd you back.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Just a little update  All four birds are looking well and except for Lacey are looking back to normal, Lacey's feathers still look a bit rough  Only recieved the sample kits today from avianbiotec. Had the follow up appointment with vet yesterday, and saw the main vet, atleast he spoke my language  I got my moneys worth was in talking to him for almost an hour! I came away with 21 sachets of Doxycycline to put in their water for 42 days. I have been advised to treat the whole aviary as well has my hand tame tiel we have indoors. I paid £135 for the re-exam and the sachets, not realising it was ornicure and i could have bought the same online for £33. The vet said half a sachet in 300ml of water, but i have realised that 300ml is not going to stretch very far and the dosage is not very accurate so decided to mix one sachet with 600ml instead and purchase the rest online  I agreed to disagree with the vet with regards to teking blood with or without an anaesetic and will be using a different vet in future! I am now wondering if taking faecial samples form them after starting the ornicure is pointless or not? Would the treatment invalidate the results? Thanks for all the info and advice everyone  All comments are very much appreciated  Em


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## tielmom (Aug 4, 2010)

I hope Lacey starts feeling better soon. Poor girl 
I am glad to hear the others are starting to feel better. Keep us posted.


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## Jess (Jun 20, 2010)

I think it's best to ring avain biotech to check, ask to speak to Jim. If not you could test them at the end of the treatment.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks Jess

I have been advised to take a pooled sample at the end of treatment  I know its not ideal that i have treated all the birds without a deffinate diagnosis but I if i hadn't started treatment straight away I would definately have lost a few  At least now I know where i can take them next time i need a vet and i have sample kits here so i can test staright away  It took 5 days to get the kits and I couldn't delay starting the treatment in order to wait for the kits  
All 4 birds are now looking great  Lacey is still tiny, and i have realised she is a picky eater, choosing only sunflower seeds and millet spray to eat and leaving the rest!


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks tielmom


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## Jenny10 (Feb 27, 2010)

god Em, i didnt know all this was going on, you poor thing, i guess we are both busy with our flock, i hope all are on the mend


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

It has been pretty hectic Jen! I have basil and Lucky here too while Olive is in Majorca. Off to work now, but will send that email soon promise  x


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## Jenny10 (Feb 27, 2010)

just a thought, you probably know this already, but Neil from paradise pets, his brother is a avian vet, my Neil told me this, but said Barry would know that anyway, but knowing Barry wasnt really into the birds, i thought it might not have been somthing Barry would think about, but you may have tried him already, just a thought.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Yes Jenny I did know that, Barry somehow stored that piece of information lol He was at Drove but left 2 years ago, He is now one of the highest qualified avian and exotic vets in Europe, specialising in birds and tortoises  He works for a university in Scotland lecturing vets in training, which was a bit far to travel  I did speak to drove and mentioned Neil Eatwell and thats when they went out of their way to contact a couple of avian vets on my behalf, they use the one i went to and John Chitty in Salisbury, but John Chitty also only does samples under anaesetic  I have been given the name of a vet in Richmond who sounds very good and one to try in Reading, so next time i will be travelling to see a vet


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## Jenny10 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thats a shame he moved all the way to Scotland, it is a worry knowing what vet to go to for birds, i think i would be ok, there is a wildlife vet at the crumbbian wildlife park on the gold coast but he also is a avian vet, so i would imagine he would be good because they deal with all kinds of sick rescue wildlife animals there.

and like in the states we can also buy alot of the things mail order, although they are trying to make it more difficult.


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

He is doing very well for himself though  I have managed to find ornicure sachets online here  and someone gave me a link to a site over in Aus and they do ship to uk so i plan on stocking up on some things


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## Jenny10 (Feb 27, 2010)

thats good, and you have found places you can get hold of things you need, what about customs?


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## cookie232 (Aug 15, 2010)

Apparently they mark the package as bird supplements instead of using the word medication  Its worth a try


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## Jenny10 (Feb 27, 2010)

thats alright then, they are really looking for illeagal drugs anyway, so hopefully they wont take much notice.


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