# 5 day old handrearing problem :(



## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

hi there guys firstly i am new to the forum so please forgive me if i have written this in the wrong section !

ok if you haven't read my intro thread i will explain briefly why i have the chick before i explain the problem
mum and dad laid 6 eggs, 2 of which were fertile and then dad passed away, friends of mine said mum would not be able to cope on her own with the chicks and advised we pulled the two fertile eggs and put them in an incubator/brooder we left the remaining eggs till mum decided to abandon.

both chicks hatched but chick number 1 failed to hatch completely we felt this was due to our inexperience and humidity in the brooder may have been too low but chick number two hatched with a little help and is now 5 days old.

s/he has fed regularly and seemed fine till yesterday and now the crop is slowing down and not emptying as quick, now i have read a few posts on here and other sites about this and i am confused as to what the problem so here's a brief run down of its symptoms:

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the crop is nice and soft no hard or doughy food in there and nice liquid food left

no air is in the crop so i dont think its souring ?

i have shone a toch to check the walls of the crop and its nice and clear no signs of yeast on the side or floating in the food left

the crop is a nice pink colour and the veins artnt overly red or large like on some pictures i have seen and as far as i know it hasnt been overstreached as i have burped the crop straight after each feed if ever there is a bubble and no more have apeared afterwards

the mouth and face are clean no messy eating here and mouth is clear of yeast/left over food no vomiting

baby is pooping regulary and is a nice solid green with the white too no runny poos or sudden drop in the production rate

it doesnt seem to have much of the downy yellow feathers at all and i dont think it has produced any more since birth (i know its too ealy yet for pins ofcourse) but this may be a sign of something?

the skin was slightly red but my husband read at a certain age to lower the temp slightly and this was when it happened so he raised it again incase that was the problem, it has helped a little but not completely

chick is constantly wanting food but i am scared to feed to satisfy its hunger as its crop is still i would say half full since last feed an hour ago

i can feel its breast bone and spine really easily and am seriously concerned it is malnourished so want to feed it more but again scared to do so
_so what i need to know is what have i dont wrong? have a fed too little too much, is chick cold or hot shoudl i change consistency of food we thickened slightly yesterday before problem occured (everythign was fine till this point) we have since gone softer again in the hope this corrects it 

chick is currently 6grams in weight and receiveing 0.6 ml (the sugested 10% feed ratio) at 105 degrees every 2 hours round the clock when the crop was emptying but last 24 hours the crops isnt emptying any-more (i have a complete run down of feeds and amounts given since birth if this helps) the brooder is currently sitting between 35.5 and 36 degree and has a humidity of 60%

chick seems happy other than if it senses us in the room and it beggs like mad, it sleeps and chirps it doesnt seem lathargic or hyper etc it is a little wobbly on its legs but i have put that down to imaturity as it is improving

hope i have given enough info and someone can please advise what i can do i really dont want to loose this little one after loosing its dad i will sit up all night watching and nursing if thats what it take to keep it going !

sorry to have gone on so much in my first thread but i cant help but think if i hadnt pulled the eggs mum may have actually managed on her own and do a better job!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

forgot to add a pic so you can see how tiny it is and asses its condition from looking at him/her please dont say it fatal, its sat in the brooder beside me as i type chirping away almost tuneful like a dawn chorus  
oh and crop was almost empty in thsi pic taken at around 10am today since then it hasnt completely emptied and last feed was at aprox 9pm


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I've had a chick that just would not gain weight. This little guy is not doing well. Whoever told you that mom wouldn't be able to cope is wrong first off. You really need some pointers from someone more experienced than me.. but questions..
How many days old is this chick? What are you feeding him? You said.. every two hours.. I'm thinking sooner than that. Have you called an Avian Certified Vet? Or a local breeder concerning hand feeding... ?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

At 5 days old the chick should be almost 30 grams in weight. It is showing signs of malnutrition.

What I would suggest is to use pedialyte/electrolytes as the water to mix the formula. Mix the formula to the thickness of babyfood applesause. If you have plain yogurt add just a tiny bit (1/8-1/4 tsp) to each feeding. *Also...* in a separate dish mix 1 drop of vinegar to 10 drops of water. Add 2 drops to every other feeding. After the formula is mixed place it in a pain of warm water so that it does not cool down. Cooler temps of formula and environment contribute to slower digestion.

The brooder should be around 95-99 degrees *AND* be very humid.

If you have a health food store nearby see if they have trace minerals. There is a brand called *Liqui-Kelp* (do an internet search) I have found that trace minerals help little chicks that are having digestion problems. Another thing that may also help is to go to the grocery store and get some cry Rice baby cereal. It contains iron. Iron, in small amounts aids the body in digestion. You can mix the cereal 50/50 with the formula for each feeding until you see better digestion.


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## lperry82 (Aug 2, 2010)

Just to save confusion 

95 degrees Fahrenheit = 35 degrees Celsius to 99 degrees Fahrenheit = 37.2222222 degrees Celsius


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

thank you ever so much for your advice just to update you i checked though the night for the crop emptying and about 4am it was half empty but by 7 it was empty completely i have given a 1ml (1cc) feed as shops not open to buy extra things you have suggested yet before feeding it was 7g so gained a gram since yesterday
as we are in uk what is the equivilant to the items you have mentioned is baby apple sauce like normal apple sauce us adults eat on our dinners ?
with the cry rice baby cereal is that like the uk brands of baby rice food?
is pedalite like dyrolite as ive never heard of it is it a american brand?
should i give more than the 10% while it is soo small to help increase its weight (obviously not overfeeding) but to try and boost its strength ?
how often should i feed if 2 hourly is not enough ? i really want to get this right but being in uk many products have different names or i have to use alternative so i'm worried i might get it wrong


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

oh just a second thought i have some multivit tables in my medicine cabinet as i am vitb12 deficient would these ground up work as the trace minerals till i can get some liqui-kelp? i dont think uk shops stock it so i'm looking to buy online so wouldn't be here for at least a day !

hubby has gone to get some baby rice and to try and get some dyralite (uk alternative to pedialyte) 

sorry to sound so stupid i feel absolutely terrible for this guy i bet you think i am so irresponsible  i would have put it back to mum if i thought she would take over but i dont think she would now as been so long i thought i was doing the right thing and helping it by pulling as an egg but thanks to my so-called-friend i have endangered this poor guys life  (this person breeds african greys too so should have known better) i wont be asking them for advice again thats for sure !!!!

also during the day should i still feed at the set times regardless of crop being empty or not and just make sure it empties at least once a day over night ? just with it being so small and waiting to empty it is delaying feeds ? i know normally the set rule is only handfeed if crop is empty but its is restricting the amount of feeds a day! its has only been an hour since last feed and its crying for food but crop still only half emptied from last feed !


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

just an update chick has now had 4 feeds of the mixture suggested by srtiels (with uk equivilant of some items) the first 3 i fed on time as the crop emptied fine and the last i just fed the crop took a little longer as crop had a small amount left from previous feed and i was waiting to empty !
chick seems happy still and hubby says it seems bigger but cant imagine that will happen in such a short time will it? anyway we will see when we weigh him/her in the morning 

but we have nearly got another 24 hours out of it surviving so surely that's a good thing ?!
anyway once again that's srtiels and other people your support and advice to such a newbie on the forum is much appreciated god bless you all !!


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Keeping our fingers crossed for you! Keep us updated.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Ok....now that you have the crop moving good again, rather than a scedule time for each feeding, go to an 'on demand feeding' schedule. What this is is to feed, allow the chick to digest and feed shortly afyter you see an empty crop. *Always* allow the crop to empty between each feeding.

Weight gain and growth should be rapid now that better nutrients are into the chick.

*And NO* B-complex vitamins are not a substitute for the trace minerals. If you see good digestion then the trace minerals are not essential. B-complex is good for releiving stress and a good supplement in small quantities once every other day.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

ok thank you srtiels can i just check though hubby says if we feed on demand but only when crop is empty that means it probably only gets 10% of weight every 3 or 4 hours wont this be too little over a 24 hours period? should i give less food but more often to keep a constant fresh supply in the crop and prevent sour crop?
and should i still continue through the night till s/he strengthens up

i know the importance of empty crop for risks of sour crop but wont it still struggle to weight gain being fed so little each day (ie is this where i went wrong before and why it slowed down?) sorry for so many questions i just want to give it the best chance possible and i am soo grateful for your advice so far

btw chick still begs even when its had a feed is this still normal, i take it because of the malnutrition and it being hungry obviously but feel guilty not giving it more when it wants it


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

One thing I have learned with hand-feeding tiel babies is *less is more* The reason is that when you feed more than the baby really needs all that is accomplished is the body is constantly working and using up all it's energy digesting food rather than growth. when less is fed (meaning quantity, *but* still a nutrient dense formula) The body is not working to digest and it can focus more on nutrient absorption and growth.

Most tiel babies will beg/cry after being fed. You have to realize that the crop is a holding pouch for the formula fed. From there it gets slowly delivered into the digestive tract. The food has a couple organs to pass thru before it reaches the intestines. it is the intestines that start to absorb nutrients from the food which in turn send the brain signals that hunger is being satisfied. This may take several minutes before the baby actually realizes it has been fed.

The most common mistake a hand-feeder will make is to give in and feed more because the baby is crying. This leads to several problems such as risk of secondary bacterial problems because the crop is holding more than it should, which delays emptying and in this time the contents can spoils and build up bacteria and/or yeast, which further complicates things. Feeding in excess can also lead to health issues later on in life such as an obesity problem, or liver problems.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

ok that helps loads thank you srtiels much appreciated and again all makes perfect sense, 
since last feed chick has on and off cried and slept (it seems to cry when hubby peers throught the window on the brooder so its eyes must be picking up on light changes as not open yet) but i haven't given in and wont feed till crop is empty again  

digestive system is obviously working well now as lots of nice normal poops since that feed which i presume that is a good sign things are working 


i really am grateful for your info and support hopefully we can get this little guy back on track with your fab knowledge


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## igottafeelin (Aug 29, 2011)

I am so glad you have been able to get things going again.! I'll be checking in for updates!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

thanks for your support igottafeelin hopefully all these healing/positive thoughts will keep him going !!!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

srtiels said:


> Most tiel babies will beg/cry after being fed.


just another question (bet your sick of me already lol) after feeding tonight chick continued to bob and make the noises he does whilst feeding even though s/he is back in the brooder, its not constant but does it every few mins its chirping away like normal too but seems to be taking longer to settle after this feed
also ive just checked on him/her because of the noise and the crop is clearing much quicker this time already i would say 1 3rd gone in under an hour !
being a tiny undernourished chick i am used to its abnormal behaviour/noises so it this now normal for a chick gaining weight properly, ie the bobbing after finished feeding (if that makes sense) 
i wont say yey things are working but keep my fingers crossed it is simply hungry this time 
will update you in the morning on the noises it is making and weight after todays change of diet !


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

just updating you that chick is still with us but still very slow progress yesterday feeding went great in the morning but the 4pm feed didn't clear from crop till late last night  we are feeding the mixture srtiels suggested and baby is still alert and seems happy but growth and crops is still very slow

i will keep persevering not going to give up on this little guy !!

he is now 9 gram which i think is a 2 gram gain since i last wrote, which isnt a lot but it is a gain not a loss ! 

to be honest his food clears to a certain point each time and then the last little bit say .2 ml takes forever, do you think its could be that at some point i may have overstretched the crop before the slow down began and it now might have problems contracting the crop for the last bit? just a thought i am by no means an expert thats why i came to the forum for advice but if anyone thinks it could be this would it be worth a crop bra? i just want him/her to thrive and at min its just ticking over day by day poor thing and we need to get it boosting its weight up if its going to stand any chance of survival, any tips or feedback would be greatfully received as always xx


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I had a chick very similar to this situation. I never gave up on the little guy either. I would love to say that things will be fine.. but my little guy passed at 10 days old.. and he never made it over 10 grams. I hope your outcome is soooo different. I am still keeping my fingers crossed for you as there is always hope! Sometimes it just isn't meant to be. There might be something more wrong with the chick than you can tell.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

thanks for your support dyarianna s/he is 10 days old tomorrow and i originally said if we can keep it going for a week we would have done really well, we did that goal this week but rather than working to the next week goal i am just working on each day being a bonus
i did notice however this evening his left eye is beginning to open (we had a minute chat with each other, "hello sweetie look at you peeking at me, i'm your foster mummy but when your strong enough you can meet your real mummy" as you do) so hopefully this is a sign he is getting stronger and growing still
i have prepared my kids though he may not survive and explained if he doesn't at least he will go to rainbow bridge and be with his daddy and wont be alone and will have all his feathers and be strong and healthy etc but i do pray i wont need to tell that story again about this bird for a few more years at least

thanks for you support though hun its comforting knowing there are people out there who have been through the same situation sending him their healing thoughts xx


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

well we've hit day 10 and still going slow but another gram achieved and were now at 11gram ! 
i still cant decide if crop is emptying at a normal rate of if its slowing again but were using the hand-rearing formula / baby rice mix with dyralite and yoghurt so hopefully it is getting enough, lots of poos still and eyes are starting to open !

it still seems tiny and not to be putting weight on like i thought it would it certainly isn't growing quick  but the scales say its gaining so i'm not sure what to do next but carry on the way i am going,i just dont know how to build it up when i am feeding what i should  crop just seems to empty to a certain level and then slow right down and once empty and i feed it does it all over again so really think crop may have been streched at one point is there ANYTHING else i can do to get this little guy growing more normal or if it keeps this slow but steady pace will it eventually catch up and survive


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

I am by far no expert on these little ones.. but I think the reason why mine (and possibly yours) did not gain weight was because all of his/her energy/food was spent on trying to to just survive.. stay even. I had originally thought my baby was just going to be a stunted baby. It's heartbreaking and frustrating watching these little guys. I really hate being pessimistic as that's not who I am. Your situation just sounds so close to mine. Mine passed in the middle of a feed right in my hand. It could have aspirated.. but it seemed more like he had a stroke or seizure. It was very scary and I was/am still very upset about it. I just want you to be prepared for this little one not surviving. That being said ... we still have our fingers crossed for you guys! If this little guy survives.. he/she is going to need one awesome name.  Hang in there and continue giving him/her love.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

i know what your saying dyarianna and appreciate your honesty i really do, each time i walk past the brooder i check its alive and breathing and wake the hubby in the night to get him to check its alive still and i am very cautious when feeding i know its chances of survival are very slim i just feel so guilty i was advised to pull from the nest and if i hadn't then i wouldn't have been in this situation grr
i have swore i will not name it till it grows past the danger stage but i also said i wouldn't say he or she and we've started saying he and i really dont want to get attached but its so hard when you feel to sorry for the little guy aahhh what a nightmare few weeks were having !!! but yes if we do suceed you can all have an input into a great name for him !
but thanks again i do apreciate your suport x


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

If you can post pix's of the crop while full *and* empty I can see if it looks stretched or is hanging too low. If support/bra is needed on tiny birds I have used a narrow strip (have to cut the width) of a band-aid to help lift up and support the base of the crop.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

* Mine passed in the middle of a feed right in my hand. It could have aspirated.. but it seemed more like he had a stroke or seizure.*
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It soulds like it was aspirated, which sadly can happen so fast. The seizure actions were from choking because the throat was blocked. I have done this a couple times over the year, and *quick action* of picking up the baby, placing your mouth over it's beak, and gently blowing a breath or two into the mouth will clear the blockage of food and get it breathing and save the chick.


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Don't bang yourself up over removing the baby from the nest box too early. Actually, if anything, you saved him by doing so. He would have died days ago if left in there. The parents would not have cared for an unhealthy chick. Keep us updated! <hugs>


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

thanks guys srtiels i will get camera out and take pics when due next feed, it really is hard fighting the want to feed when it isnt empty and its crying but it just doesn't seem able to digest the last bits  if i was brave enough i would empty it but i think that would only add to the dangers with this little one.

i am still feeding 10% each feed and if say that was 1.00 ml i would say it digests0.6-0.7 before the slow up begins.
its redness has gone completely on its skin now and its a healthy pink colour and the bits of eye i can see peeking through the eyelids seem glossy and bright, its belly seems biger than before and its standing more upright now and hold its head higher when begging for food.
the crop just seems really saggy and wrinkly like a balloon thats had air in it a few days then let down (hope that makes sense) and even with the 10% in it is really soft and the skin still has give to it but does look full as it is starting to fill the gullet (but not to the top obviously)


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*i am still feeding 10% each feed and if say that was 1.00 ml i would say it digests0.6-0.7 before the slow up begins.*
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OK....for now cut back to .6-.7 and see how the baby does.

It does sound like there was a little stretching to the tissue. What you can do is after you feed it look directly at the crop facing towards you. Watch it for movement at the bottom kinda like the churning in a washing machine. This will be several times a minute. If you see muscle action the muscles are not stretched....but if you see no muscle movement at the base of the crop after a minute or more that is an indication that the tissues and muscles have been stretched out and need to heal. The easiest way to do this is use a ban-aid or fashion a crop bra (your baby may be too small for this) and use it as a sling to hold up and support the base of the crop. This allow keeps the food above the opening into the digestive tract so that the chick can digest the feeding.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

right ok will do, i know ive tried to watch for peristaltic movement before as ive seen you mention that on other threads and can honestly say i dont notice any but i will look again just to be sure, 
my husband did say wont s/he be too small for a bra but hopefully if it needs it we can try the band aid method, it always seems to stop about the same level if that helps, i take it the digestive tract is so far up the crop and the food which isnt absorbing is sat just below that ? this would make perfect sense in the way this little ones crop is working, will go check on it now, thanks again hun so much apreciated xx


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

When the crop is empty (or almost empty) you can take your fingertip and press at the base of the crop. You will feel an indentation in the area at the base of the neck which is where the food enters in the body. If this area is above when the last of the undigested crop contents are then you will need something to lift the base of the crop up to that level.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

well thats was a surprise the crop was almost empty, as you will see this is more empty than usual i normally find much more and this has taken nearly 4 hours to get to this stage, now you see why i worry its taking so long to grow 
the first few pics are of it just before feed (for the prurpose of pictures i risked this one feed before completly empty crop (i dont normally do this!)
and the other pics are after 7cc of formula made to the mix you recommended (i gently massged the crop after to make sure that tiny amount that was left mixed with the new just incase to prevent any probs of old settling in the bottom)
i watched for as long as i dared so that it didnt get cold out of the brooder and i can honeslty say i see no movement what so ever, i even asked husband to look and we shone a torch to see if shining light through woudl show up move ment but nothing 
also i just weighed again as crop was fairly empty and it is still 11gram so it has gained a gram since yesterday and not lost any yet.
however as you will see no feathers are forming yet and the downy ones it had at hatch are few and far between but eyes are starting to peek at us !!
























after


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The Spice Remedy in my article might be helpful for you to add to the formula: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html

Also since the eyes are opening soon I would suggest that you keep an eye on the pupils of the eye....they should be dense and black. What you do not want to see is what is in the pix (click for a larger view) The Spice Remedy will help to help the babies body fight low grade pathogens from developing.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

right i think i have all those ingredients if not its off to the shops lol
so far from what i can see the eye is jet black in these pics the eye is fairly closed i have seen them more open and they are very dark and so far i cant say ive seen any white patches, but i will keep an eye out thank you !

so can you tell from the pics what might be going on with the crop hun ? i know the pics arnt great as it is so fidgety and wouldn't keep still it certainly has energy to move that's for sure!

will i have caused a problem by feeding when it still had that tiny amount left  i really wanted to get you the pics so we can help him asap so i begrudgingly took the risk otherwise you would have been waiting a few more hours ! but i am worried i could have added to the problem


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The babies color looks great....And, as long as you are not losing weight there is hope that things will soon turn around. OK....look at the 2nd pix. On the abdomen, below the ribcage, of the baby on the birds right is the liver (purplish colors organ thru the skin) and the left (pale hard organ) is the gizzard. If you hold this area there should be contractions as the baby digests. 

And the after pix....the crop looks big....so I would suggest less food feed per feeding and more frequent feeding for several days. This will reduce the strain on the muscles of the base of the crop, and hopefully they will shrink.

Aside from the above the skintone of the crop looks healthy (meaning no indication of yeast/bacteria)


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Wow.. what a sweetie! He certainly does look like a little fighter! I sure hope this little guy makes it! Awesome information as usual Srtiels! I had first read some info from someone about blowing in their mouth just after my little one passed (most likely you, but posts all blur together). I am now more educated and thank everyone here for that. Hey! You could name the little one Russo!  Or even Webster, as you got a lot of information on him via the web.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

LOL....MB (for Miracle Baby) would be a cute name or nick-name


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

great that is so encouraging thank you srtiels i know not to build my hopes up still but i really do appreciate all the advice 
i will stick to the 0.6-0.7cc/ml and if i give the (baby rice/formula/yoghurt/vit) mix and then how often should i do the spice mix or is that to add to the feed mix too i didn't quite understand that bit sorry !? ie do i alternate with feeds or give once a day etc (bearing in mind i am limited the number of feeds due to crop emptying)
do you think i should try a band aid bra too if so do you ahve a link to a band aid picture so i know where i am attaching it
will keep you updated on progress as always guys and a million thanks again srtiels 

dyarianna don't let what happened to your chick dishearten you from future chicks you did everything you could to help him/her and i am sure it was grateful of all the love you gave it and will be all grown up, beautiful and flying free at rainbow bridge now and you WILL meet it again so that it can give you that love back one day !!!


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well Gibbs and Hetty.. (mom and dad) have already decided that I needed more chicks. That little one's sibling thrived and is gone on to a new home. I have two more 6 weeks olds... and right now  Gibbs and Hetty are sitting on 5 eggs and counting. I have yet to hand feed more than 2 at a time (and that's pulling them at 3 weeks). This WILL be interesting. Right now my 2 6 week olds know when I am mixing their feed and get all excited. I open up the door and BOOM.. they are on me (one landed on top of my head this morning).


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

lol they sound like they are doing great and it great to hear that experience didnt deter you :0) 
i think i have been put off letting tooie (the litte guys mum) breed again besides i would have to find her a mate again first !
we are due two new tiels we are rehoming in a few weeks one is a normal grey and the other is a whiteface i am not sure yet what sex they are or if i am going to put them all together eventually so only time will tell if i have to do this again, to be honest i think right now no babies just yet is a good plan for me lol
i dont think i would have been so stressed but ive just had one of my cats have a litter as well and had to hand rear a kitten for the first week, luckily they all survived and are due to find homes in about 2 weeks


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

You've had your hands full! Wow! Congrats on the new birds coming! I understand on the stress level.. my birds are my sanctuary. I have 3 daughters, ages 13 to 20 and twin grandsons age 2. Nothing more needs to be said there. lol But, I really am enjoying my daughters being part of the bird's lives and my grandsons.. well .. they are happy as long as they don't get pooped on.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I don't have a pix of the band-aid for crop support. Below is some info on a crop bra...*you might be able to* use a large band-aid and fashion a crop bra from it for a smaller baby. The adhesive flaps can stick to the skin.

As to the Spice Remedy....just a small pinch added to every feeding for up to a week.

As to crop bra info, my album shows it: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/Babies%20in%20Trouble/?start=all

And here are instructions
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Shown is a pattern to make a crop bra (see album). You can find the Vet Wrap or Co-Flex at most feed stores. It is a very thin flexible self adhesive bandaging material. Use sharp scissors to cut the material to size. The size shown is ‘an approx. for 2.5 to 3 week old babies.

Before you begin check to make sure that the crop is empty before fitting the crop bra to the bird. If there is old or sour food in the crop you need to empty this out of the crop. An empty crop also reduces any risk of aspirating the chick, especially if it is struggling while fitting the crop bra.

I’ve found that sometimes the bandage doesn’t want to stay self adhered where pressed together. Then I will just loosely tie and knot the straps. First tie the long straps (which are the long parts of the H) under and behind the wings. The bottom part will be resting on the abdomen area, right behind the crop by a 1/2" Do not tie too tight. You just want it snug. Next tie off the front straps in front of the shoulder and at the base of the back of the neck, leaving just enough slack to form a slight sling where the crop area is at. You want the bra fitted so that it will hold the crop tissue up above the opening into the body at the base of the crop. 

Let the baby get used to this before you feed him. I have seen babies fight it and flip over backwards and look like bucking bronco's until they are used to this. 

You will not be feeding as much as you normally do. The first few days you will be feeding less but more often. The goal is to have good digestion and to support the stretched crop skin so that it can start shrinking back to normal. If the crop is not fully emptying between feedings, empty what you can before feeding fresh food. *Special Note:* When you have an overstretched crop never use ACV (vinegar) as a flush or in the formula. The acidity tends to hinder the tissues from shrinking.

As the baby grows check the tightness of the ties. Adjust if needed. If the baby is growing quickly cut and fit a new crop bra. Some babies only need the bra for a week, some take 2 weeks or more to have the crop tissue go back to normal. For the first few days after the crop bra is removed try to feed less more often so that you don’t stretch the healed tissue. You will notice that the crop is working fine because if you watch it you will notice it moving and churning the food. This is called peristaltic actions or waves. What is going on is the muscles are churning the food to deliver it into the cervical esophagus which is the opening to the digestive tract at the base of the crop. Movement should be noted every 10-15 sec. The crop itself is simply a reservoir for holding food.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

I don't have a pix of the band-aid for crop support. Below is some info on a crop bra...*you might be able to* use a large band-aid and fashion a crop bra from it for a smaller baby. The adhesive flaps can stick to the skin.

As to the Spice Remedy....just a small pinch added to every feeding for up to a week.

As to crop bra info, my album shows it: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc331/Mousebirds-and-more/Other%20birds/Babies%20in%20Trouble/?start=all

And here are instructions
------------------------

Shown is a pattern to make a crop bra (see album). You can find the Vet Wrap or Co-Flex at most feed stores. It is a very thin flexible self adhesive bandaging material. Use sharp scissors to cut the material to size. The size shown is ‘an approx. for 2.5 to 3 week old babies.

Before you begin check to make sure that the crop is empty before fitting the crop bra to the bird. If there is old or sour food in the crop you need to empty this out of the crop. An empty crop also reduces any risk of aspirating the chick, especially if it is struggling while fitting the crop bra.

I’ve found that sometimes the bandage doesn’t want to stay self adhered where pressed together. Then I will just loosely tie and knot the straps. First tie the long straps (which are the long parts of the H) under and behind the wings. The bottom part will be resting on the abdomen area, right behind the crop by a 1/2" Do not tie too tight. You just want it snug. Next tie off the front straps in front of the shoulder and at the base of the back of the neck, leaving just enough slack to form a slight sling where the crop area is at. You want the bra fitted so that it will hold the crop tissue up above the opening into the body at the base of the crop. 

Let the baby get used to this before you feed him. I have seen babies fight it and flip over backwards and look like bucking bronco's until they are used to this. 

You will not be feeding as much as you normally do. The first few days you will be feeding less but more often. The goal is to have good digestion and to support the stretched crop skin so that it can start shrinking back to normal. If the crop is not fully emptying between feedings, empty what you can before feeding fresh food. *Special Note:* When you have an overstretched crop never use ACV (vinegar) as a flush or in the formula. The acidity tends to hinder the tissues from shrinking.

As the baby grows check the tightness of the ties. Adjust if needed. If the baby is growing quickly cut and fit a new crop bra. Some babies only need the bra for a week, some take 2 weeks or more to have the crop tissue go back to normal. For the first few days after the crop bra is removed try to feed less more often so that you don’t stretch the healed tissue. You will notice that the crop is working fine because if you watch it you will notice it moving and churning the food. This is called peristaltic actions or waves. What is going on is the muscles are churning the food to deliver it into the cervical esophagus which is the opening to the digestive tract at the base of the crop. Movement should be noted every 10-15 sec. The crop itself is simply a reservoir for holding food.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

this little guy is really begining to upset/dishearten me now we have followed all the advice given exactly yet the last 2 days he simply hasnt put any weight on  he is still 11 gram which i suppose is good that he hasnt lost anything but i jsut cant understand why it wont gain.
my parents visited yesterday and said since last week it looks much bigger so its is sort of growing but still to me looks like a timy bald newborn


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

OK...just a thought....is the little one starting to grow in pinfeathers? If so that might affect some of the weight gain because the energy is going towards growing these in.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

no hun nothing just the downy yellow feathers i keep looking for them as would have expected some sign by now but he just has what he hatched with but his eyes are starting to open more, he is extreemly lively and we are going to have to put him in a larger tub in his brooder soon as he can now get his head up to the sides and it wont be long and he will be out !! so he MUST be growing somehow ! we put a tiny teddy int here as company to cuddle up to and he like nothing better than climbing all over it and then snuggling up to it to sleep !

have you ever had a little one like this srtiels which takes this long but DOES survived? 
i just went to check and crop as he is due a feed in about half an hour and it was empty surprisingly which is great , i have been thinking he is healthy but malnourisheda and simply taking his time to grow, and i think he will have to be called peter pan as he doesn't want to grow up !!! lol
will take some pics next feed and you will see it doesn't look any different in weight but is slightly longer in length now !
he really is an enigma and a puzzle to me !?
i have noticed the first few feeds of the day he digests fine and pretty normal speed but it seems whenever we get to tea time and early evening the digestion slows down and then seems to really drop off till morning again ?! crop is still lovely and soft though and skin healthy and pink but not fattenign up  
he seems happy and if he survives will be a very cuddly bird (even if he is crying for a feed as soon as get him from his brooder he stops crying even before i start feeding !) mummys boy in the making (if he survives ofcourse)


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Since the little one is digesting good...I think now would be the time to eliminate the Rice Cereal. Just do the formula with a little plain yogurt and a pinch of Spice mix in it and see if the weight gets better.

Yes I have had a few babies like that. They will stay small/tiny to weaning and will take almost a year to finally be on the smaller side of normal sized.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

ok will try that from the next feed thank you again srtiels, i am still making the mix runny apple sauce consistency is this right also and to keep doing 0.6-0.7 ml feeds for a few more days to ensure the crop is recovered well enough ?

so although i am trying not to build my hopes up too much incase we fail, there is still "some" hope for this little guy?


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

How is little one doing???


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

little one is still hanging on in there  
he had a tiny bit more food yesterday and today, as although he isnt completely up to speed with digestion he is digesting better now, the last tiny bit (say 1ml) still takes a while to go but the rest is much better! i have noticed compared to a few days ago 6 ml doesnt take as much room in the crop as it did over the weekend so increased by 2ml to 8, hope thats ok srtiels? 
we did hit 12 gram yesterday but today he was 11 gram which isnt good, its the first time he has lost, but he has eaten well today again so i am hoping its jsut a sign he is using food and energy in growing bones and feathers rather than laying down fat depostits.
he is very vocal at the min this is why we jokingly say "he" rather then she as ive heard the boys can be more vocal!
we think he knows our voices now as when we go past the brooder when he is alseep he instantly makes a lot of chirping and calls for food yet when i pick him up he calms and settles again till i feed him and he does his bobbing and chirping lol
i am still not convinced this little guy has turned around his chances of survival just yet but every day we can keep him going i would have thought his odds improve?
his eyes are still opening but we dont have any pin feathers still, he is steadier on his feet now and stands up tall when calling for food  i will have to take some pics for you and show you how he is doing, but to be honest he will probably look the same apart from his eyes opening.
thank you for asking dyarianna its lovely knowing that even though i'm a newbie on here you all care


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well he's just going to be a little fighter.  Maybe Rocky for a name! Or one of the other fighter's names.. lol Not a fan.. so not sure. I hope that he pulls through. Keep in touch!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

i will do hun thanks again for your support 
he was really quiet last night normally he will keep us awake chirping away but was rather quiet so kept checking on him but this moring he is chirping away again and weighed him before his breakfast feed and after hovering on the scales between 10.5 and 11 gram yesterday, he is now back up to 12 ! yipeee  once again the little guys is boggling my brain and just when i think things may be going wrong again he proves me wrong and that he is still a little fighter and nto giving up !

by the time this little guy does grow up i will be completley grey and on the verge of a breakdown lol i have definetly been put off pulling a chick in the future ! but on the other hand it is amazing watching this little one grow, albeit slowly and i know if he survives we will be so close and bonded which is wonderful


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Well I don't recall if you have any children.. but if you don't, this little guy is prepping you for all the grey hairs you will get with them!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

haha yes i do have children 3 of little darling horrors hehe so there are a few strey greys already


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## Ozzy Rules (Jul 29, 2011)

I've just read through this whole thread. Keeping my fingers crossed for your baby, he sounds like a fighter


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

aww thanks ozzy (sorry i dont know everyones names yet) he is getting there slowly but boy will i be glad when he is off the spice mix he stinks of garlic lol i wouldnt mind if it was the cinamon i could smell i love that , i was just feeding him and said well at least the vampires wont get you at halloween hehe


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

awww just fed the little guy his dinner and noticed he has a few tiny grey/black dots between his eyes just above his nares so i think his pin feathers are starting for his crest  awww so happy he is finally showing signs of development !!!


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## Ozzy Rules (Jul 29, 2011)

Sounds like a bit more progress :thumbu:


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Great news! Keep up the fight little guy!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

srtiels just thought i would update you on the little guy as he is still only 12 grams, that's the last few day now he hasn't gained at all  I'm starting to wonder if he will ever be bigger than he is right now, is there anything else i can try to get him growing or is this just how he is going to be (slow to develop) he is still on the spice mix with his formula but he will have been on it a week tomorrow so due to finish that and then we will just be on normal hand-rearing formula again !


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Can you post any pix's of him. maybe looking at him might give an idea of what is going on. He should have gained alot of weight over several days....such as an average of 5-6 grams per day.


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

he is barely gaining a gram a day since hatch and the last few days he hasnt gained at all  his crop is emptying still slowly but it is emptying and he is pooping well and is alert still and cryign for food but just no growth 
he probably empties over 4 hours a 1cc-1.2cc feed (10%) this fills his crop without it looking streched like before so he is growing but is still taking forever to empty i know you said he would take ages to grow but is this really how it shoudl be ? his eyes are bright and glossy and jet black, i have taken close watch on hsi eyes after you said about the white dot and so far they are clear which is a good thing!
here is a pic of him taken yesterday when he weighed 12 gram he still has some food in his crop in this picture,


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

i know this picture isnt very clear due to the flash on the camera and his size is vague so i will take some mroe tomorrow as its late in the evening here in uk now i will try and take some next to something like a peg so you can get a better idea on his size


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

What a little one... but such a fighter.. please give him smooches for us. And hugs for you. Gosh.. you are doing everything you can for him. What did you end up naming the little guy? For some reason I just thought of Gabriel as he is such a little angel. I have no words of wisdom for you and I so wish I did..


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

aww thanks dyarianna, we haven't got a name yet suggestions are welcome, and yes Gabriel is a wonderful name but ive already had a tiel in the past called Gabriel so cant really use that name i think he needs a name that means fighter or strength but yes something with meaning rather than just any name  we cant go on colour as his feathers arnt through yet so dont know what he will be ! 
but on a good note he gained a gram today and is now 13  slowly but surely we will get there 
i will give him cuddles for you but i try not to handle him too much as with him not being feathered yet i worry about him getting cold so tend to hold him for feeding and then put him back in the brooder and talk to him through he glass so he still hears my voice


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## pluto (Oct 27, 2011)

I was just reading through this whole thread! You are doing wonderful for your little one! I really hope all will work out great for you. I am also struggling with trying to get my little one to gain weight and I know the emotions and stress it brings (and sleep deprivation!!) Thank goodness for the experts and support here hey?!
Best of luck and keep us updated! I will be following your journey 
Willow


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

aww thanks for your support willow and so sorry to hear your going through a similar situation do you have a thread on how you are dealing with your little one, it might just have something that will work for my little guy ?!
i agree it is soo tiring and stressful it seems a never-ending battle at the min but one i wont give up on and yes you are right it is thanks to people like srtiels and others that our little guys are still fighting to grown and that we haven't given up wanting to help !
god bless all those who support us in saving these little guys !


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Your little one is showing obvious signs of being stunted. Do you have any breeder friends that have babies in the nest that are similar in size. _Possibly_ they might let you foster the baby in the nest to see how it thrives on getting food from a parent bird.

And I was thinking that some info from this thread on another forum (have to register) might be helpful. I covers overstretched crops, crop bras, stunting, etc, and all that was done, and the little one survived: http://www.isalde.com/totallytiels.com/forum/index.php?/topic/5509-seven-riker-what-to-do-when-a-chick-is-in-trouble/


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

unfortunately i don't have anyone near to me who breeds tiels and don't have transport to travel  i take it there is no way mum would take her baby on at this stage? 
so if i carry on the way i am going i take he will get there eventually ? or is this a loosing battle ? 
i will read the link you sent thank you ever so much hoepfully i will be able to pick up something helpful


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

just thought i would update you all again on "chicken" (temp name) 
i have just been reading through the thread again to find out where we may be struggling and i thought it was only a couple of days his weight had been stationary but he has now been stuck at 12 gram for 8 days  he did go up to 13 but is back to 12 and isnt going up! he is still the usual nice pink colour and bright eyed and alert but the weight just isn't gaining 
he is now on 10% feeds roughly every 4-5 hours due to waiting for the crop to empty completely  he settles between feeds fine and chirps/cries for food when empty but its is really slow and disheartening  but he is still going and were still not giving up !
he does have a few grey pin feathers coming on his crest but they are very slow in appearing and don't seem to have got any bigger over the last few days, and he seems to have clear/pale yellow? tiny pin's on the edge of his wings so don't know if they have anything to do with his slow weight development ?
i cant find a local breeder and still have no transport to go further afield so still have to feed him myself which i am happy to do 24/7 just wish he would start to put the weight on !
he is getting bigger/taller as we have had to change his tub from a margarine tub to a larger Tupperware tub as his head was peeking over the edge and i was worried he may climb out ! so something must be working 
anyway i just thought i should let you know he was still with us and we are still plodding along to keep him going in the right direction.


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## Fortunate (Oct 31, 2011)

Awww your poor guy, he is getting great care, I am so glad i'm not the only one with these sort of worries - i always feel like such a bad mommy - I had to pull a chick because he is only 8grams at 7days, his sibling died this afternoon unfortunatly (he/she was 10grams)
The other two still with parents are happy and healthy and a good weight, so it must be a health issue we are all dealing with....
Good luck with your little guy - I say if he is still with you after all this time he must be a fighter and will probably not let go so easily! 

hugs to the little man!


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

thanks fortunate and sorry to hear you are going through a similar problem, i just wish i could figure out what is slowing "chicken" down he seems so willing to keep going but for some reason nature is stopping him 
i keep saying to myself as long as he feeds and it digests eventually he will get fully grown and then put the weight on, wishful thinking eh ! and if prayers were food he would be a monster sized tiel by now ! hopefully god will look down on him eventually and see he deserves to win this battle  and same for your little ones !


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## dextersmum (Oct 18, 2011)

well as per usual this little guy surprises me when i am worrying again, he is almost 13 gram again and last night before his last feed i though he looked different and then realised his eyes have opened up much more they are now more round looking where before the opening was more rugby ball shaped so i am thrilled he is developing again!

this morning i noticed his crop has some food left in it which should have gone so to ensure it wasn't becoming yeasty or slowing the crop i decided to be brave and clean/flush the crop out, i have now given him a slightly more watery mix with the vinegar added and yoghurt to try and help flush out any left over food in his digestive sytem and i will give him his next feed sooner than if he had a larger feed like srtiels told me to do a few weeks ago, when he was slowing to try and get him going again, last time it worked so hopefully it will again today, he is sitting much better today his wings are tucked in instead or flapping outstretched for balance like the last few weeks and he is much more settled after his last feed ! 
today is a positive day and i am reading and re-reading all the advice i have been given and links to other threads and sites so we can try and get things going again ! 
come on "chicken" you can do it !!! :0)


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## DyArianna (Aug 7, 2011)

Wow.. such a roller coaster. I really admire you for keeping with the fight!  Every time I see you have posted new.. I am almost afraid to open it up. So glad to hear that little one is still plugging along! Go Chicken!!


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