# Anesthetic for tests



## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

I have found an Avian Vet within driving distance to take some blood & x-ray our male Tiel who has not been well.
I recently made a post regarding his lethargy, unusual feathers & quite full on polyuria that has lasted for weeks.
Its all coincided with a very heavy molt.... 
My question is about the Anesthetic for the little boy. They apparently have to take a reasonable amount of blood from the jugular(yikes), and then the x-ray, all needing to be done while asleep.
I know there would be an element of risk with any use of Anesthetic, but I hoping for a bit of encouragement from owners who have had similar done to their birds...
He is quite a sooky bird, and he is very clingy & soft natured.
This will be a first for any of feathers family members...feeling a bit nervous 
Also its about 1.5 hrs drive, never taken one for more than 10 mins in a car...how do they go over that sort of travel distance, and how best should I go about it?
Thanks for any input or advice...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

You can cover the travel cage with a towel so as not to spook him, especially if he's not used to riding in cars. 

As for the anesthesia, this does make sense. Birds do not hold still and they may hurt him more if they don't anesthetize him. Are they actually going to put him under anesthesia or just sedate him?


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Thank you Roxy...I will try doing a few short trips in the car to see how he goes before making the longer trip. The plan is to have in on my eldest sons lap in a small cage. Rascal is really close to both myself & my son, so I am hoping he feels secure enough.
I am not sure actually with regard to the anesthetic...they told me it was a oxygen based gas & that he would not be under to deeply.
So maybe sedation is a more accurate description.
Like I said, I just dont know too much of what to expect...


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

I just drove my birds 3000 miles across the country and they really didn't care at all. That said, obviously individuals may vary. 

I have also had birds sedated for blood draws, even when very sick. It always makes me anxious, but they've always done okay. It's not without risk, but it's a worthwhile tradeoff to get a diagnosis, imo.


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

I remember when I had my Buzzy x-rayed they had to unfold her wings and tape her to a flat panel so that the x-ray would show as much of the bird in detail on a 2-dimensional surface. Wasn't going to happen without anesthesia, of course. You want a vet that's experienced in anesthetizing small birds and given that they know what they are doing you have done the best you can to minimize the risk (good to ask them questions as you've done).

I would think that would be a good time to take the blood for testing since the bird has to be absolutely still for the blood-draw.

You want an accurate diagnosis based on effective lab testing so it sounds appropriate to use anesthesia. You are right, though, there is an element of risk but letting the problem go undiagnosed would be worse.

Hope it goes smoothly for you and the tiel is restored to good health soon!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

So what you're describing is actually anesthesia not sedation. Sedation is when they give the bird an injection that makes them sleepy but not necessarily asleep. They're still awake but they can't move. Anesthesia actually put them to sleep with the gas. For a bird they'll use a mask and gas him down. Hopefully it goes smoothly for you!!


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Thank you everyone....
He will be in next week for the tests.
As he has been on the improve in terms of strength & alertness over the last week or so. Given that, I decided not to rush him in, & to give him a bit more time to pick up as much as possible to minimize the risks of the tests.
At the moment all he is really presenting with is fairly full on & consistent polyuria, and I am able to collect about 4-5mls of urine from the cage tray after a nights sleep. But he is drinking heaps on his own to compensate...the Liquid Spark was a godsend with that!
That and what I would consider no more than typical sleep patterns for midway through a heavy molt.
The serious lethargy, not having good strength & being able to fly properly at times seems to be behind him, so that must be a good sign.
Plus there are no more incomplete feathers being dropped. All his new feathers seem to be growing through nicely now.
Plus he is doing subtle encouraging things like beak grinding, ruffling his tail, and his little "hukka" dance, things that all point to him feeling well & content in himself.
So I am hoping he will pull through...
Our vet was bracing us for him to pass when he was missing his perch & had the splaying legs...we were so upset we were going to loose the precious little man who beat the odds in the wild


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Vince said:


> As he has been on the improve in terms of strength & alertness over the last week or so...
> The serious lethargy, not having good strength & being able to fly properly at times seems to be behind him, so that must be a good sign...
> Plus there are no more incomplete feathers being dropped. All his new feathers seem to be growing through nicely now...
> Plus he is doing subtle encouraging things like beak grinding, ruffling his tail, and his little "hukka" dance, things that all point to him feeling well & content in himself.


All good signs of improvement.  My Puff was polyuric from a possible infection at about 1 year old and lived 15 more years with kidney issues. The polyuria continued all those years. I had her tested at the onset and there was nothing obviously wrong in the test results, just the abnormal uric acid level (reflective of a kidney issue of some sort.)
I only say this in case the little guy happens to have kidney function issues - don't be disheartened if testing suggests something comparable because Puff showed me that a tiel can do very well nonetheless.
In the meantime I still hope everything goes well and he heals up 100% from whatever the problem is.
The testing is very worthwhile. I was amazed at all the lab tests that can be run with such a miniscule amount of blood to work with. Truly remarkable! (That's what makes the bloodwork expensive.)
Make sure you remember to ask for copies of all the lab work - x-ray report and blood tests for your personal records.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Thank you Tielbob for your input & encouragement...it has helped give me more peace of mind.
Only another bird keeper knows of the insecurity for having an unwell member of the flock...


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

I wanted to add: Bring the vet up to date on the bird's progress when you see him. If the x-rays are the main reason for anesthesia (bringing him fully under) AND if the vet no longer sees a need for the x-ray, then you might be able to have him only be sedated (but still conscious) for the blood-draw. The least intrusive option to serve the need is preferred for the bird's safety. That is why people are concerned about sedation vs. anesthesia in this thread.

I don't want to increase your worry here but I wanted to share what I would do under the circumstances. Anesthesia is always a concern even when people need it for themselves. But it has its place when you need it for diagnostics, etc.

Your bird has exceeded the vet's expectations by hanging in there and improving so maybe by the vet visit the vet will see things differently in terms of testing needs. Always worth bringing the vet up to date on a visit so that you get the most effective testing/treatment.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> I wanted to add: Bring the vet up to date on the bird's progress when you see him. If the x-rays are the main reason for anesthesia (bringing him fully under) AND if the vet no longer sees a need for the x-ray, then you might be able to have him only be sedated (but still conscious) for the blood-draw. The least intrusive option to serve the need is preferred for the bird's safety. That is why people are concerned about sedation vs. anesthesia in this thread.


I second this. Honestly, the last time I had a bird that needed blood, they cut his nail too short and took it from there. See if that might be an option if the xrays are no longer needed. Much less stressful for both you and the bird.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

I will defs be discussing all this with both avian vets before I have Rascal in for the tests, he is still improving all the time, although I do fell that given that he was so serious at his worst it needs some tests to rule some things out, or it all surfacing again in the future if he is low, or molting again.
I actually had blood draw with this same little guy via a nail clip when we first found him to rule out psittacosis(he was negative). The local vet could not control the bleeding from the nail(the Quickstop was doing nothing & it was flowing like a tap) & we come close to loosing him, he went into shock from the low BP, and I sat up all night with him on my chest, to help him pull through.(I am convinced the sound of our heartbeat, & body heat gives them an unbeatable sense of security & comfort when sick) It took him days to build up the replacement blood, and get his strength back...it was so scary.
Our avain vet in Brissy is not a fan of drawing blood from the nail for the reason we experienced, and said he has heard of a number of birds being lost that way. Although I am with you Roxy, the nail still seems like the better option than sedation/anesthesia, and drawing from the jugular 
It all seems so so risky....although I have relatively limited experience with Tiels & related health issues, so I not really the best person to be making calls as to what may be the safest option...
I am just trying to do my best to find the balance between the risks associated with the tests, and his ongoing health...
If the polyuria would settle down I would really relax....
Good thing is is weight is stable, I have been recording it every morning at 8.00am for a week now & it is steady at 75-76 grams(he is quite a small little fella), that was the weight he was a month after we found him & he bounced back after being lost for an unknown amount of time.. The only thing is I amble to collect on average 5mls of urine from his cage tray in the morning...thats more than 5% of his body weight in lost urine overnight!
He has always had excess urine to degree though...but we had just put it down to him liking his water, he gulps, rather than sips like most Tiels.
But nothing like this, he is a full on fire hose....thats what worries me, he may continue to improve for now, but whatever the underlying issue is will almost for sure raise its head down the track, and next time it might take him out


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## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

My new vet just drew blood from the ankle vein without anesthesia. She just had a tech towel my bird, inserted a tiny little insulin syringe needle, and drew about .5ml that way. It wasn't without stress, but it didn't seem particularly traumatic and it certainly didn't have the recovery time that anesthesia has required in the past. I think that's limited to smaller amounts of blood, though, so discuss with your vet if it's possible in your guy's case.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> My new vet just drew blood from the ankle vein without anesthesia. She just had a tech towel my bird, inserted a tiny little insulin syringe needle, and drew about .5ml that way. It wasn't without stress, but it didn't seem particularly traumatic and it certainly didn't have the recovery time that anesthesia has required in the past. I think that's limited to smaller amounts of blood, though, so discuss with your vet if it's possible in your guy's case.


Definitely something to discuss! I'm surprised they didn't have an sticks to stop the bleeding on your little guy (at my office we have these sticks that you press on the nails and it stops the bleeding immediately. We use them when quickstop doesn't work.)

The biggest issue with getting blood while a pet (any pet) is anesthetized or sedated is how much harder it is. The BP is lower and so is the heart rate so the blood flows slower. We have to do this quite often with fractious cats and it takes forever to find the vein and then get the blood to flow. If they're going to do a complete blood work up though, they'll most likely need at least 2-3mls of blood to do so. Hopefully everything turns out OK.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

The nail bleeding issue happened at a general vets practice, as opposed to an avian vet. They sadly have a hit & miss track record with birds, but they are our only & best choice without going for a healthy drive :/
I only just recently found the avian vet 1.5 hrs away, so I sure things will better in hand there...
Prior to that, all our consults with an avain vet have been over the phone..


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Vince, please let us know how it goes after your vet visit (which is possibly this week?) Hoping for the best for Rascal and all your concerned family this week.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

We have a little problem getting Rascal to the Avian Vet for the tests 
As mentioned they are 1.5 hrs drive away, we have tried doing a couple of short "test" trips with Rascal, & the excitement/anxiety of the car ride makes the polyuria problem much worse immediately. He looses a crazy amount of urine in the 10-15mins we have him in the car.
We have tried covering the cage, leaving it partially opened, it does not make much difference 
He is even in his familiar sleeping cage sitting on my sons lap, and he is bonded very well with both of us. 
Cant get him to drink while in the car either...but when we get him home he guzzles it down.
So I dont know how Rascal will go after 1.5hrs of loosing a lot of fluid, and then being possibly anesthetist, and having blood drawn.
That on top of the stress from the trip might be the recipe for a bad outcome.
So we are just going to work on the small trips & see if we can get him to settle into it.
He has always been a very clingy & timid bird....possibly the experience of being lost in the wild caused it. He was under 50g & very near death when we found him. So I put it down to a bit of PTSD for the lack of a better description...
So we are still in a bit of limbo, but the good thing is he is still holding strong and steadily improving other than the polyuria.
Thank you so much for caring as much as we do...


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Vince, perhaps you could call the vet and see if they have an avian vet who could visit your home to draw blood (preferably without sedation). Unless you see Rascal making quick progress in getting used to the trips, I'd be concerned about stressing him repeatedly with the car rides. You could offer to pay them for the traveling and additional time (mention that up-front). The blood work and examination might be all that's needed at this point and not the x-ray. You are right - the excessive urination & delayed drinking and agitation is bad.
If no vet will do that, maybe an experienced avian tech could do the same - around here they are the ones who usually draw blood from a toenail at the vet's office anyway. They need to know what they are doing so they don't cause problems by cutting the nail into the nail bed (that happened to one of my tiels in the past.)
I know it seems unlikely that they would do this but you could still ask. They might even be able to give you a referral to an avian vet who makes house calls in your area.
When I first picked up Percy from his foster home he was extremely upset and screamed during the entire trip. I didn't think he would survive the 1.5 hour trip home in heavy thunderstorms, and he was healthy. He really didn't calm down for over two weeks after being rehomed with me. I was told he was abused in the past (before the kind foster 'parent' took him in), so I think that was the basis for the distress.
I don't know what else can be done.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks Tielbob....all good advice.
If you read my post second from the top on this page you will see that we came very close to loosing him once before from an incorrectly performed nail clip blood draw at a regular vet clinic...
He nearly bleed to death & they could not control the bleeding.
Unfortunately will live in a relatively regional area with limited resources, especially when it comes to avian vets.
The sad stories of lost birds from inexperienced handling has left myself & lot of other local bird owners very paranoid about how best to seek help.
Just today I have a friend with an unwell Black Cockatoo who if frantically weighing up her best options to get help without making the problem worse...


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Vince said:


> ... we came very close to loosing him once before from an incorrectly performed nail clip blood draw at a regular vet clinic...
> He nearly bleed to death & they could not control the bleeding.
> Unfortunately will live in a relatively regional area with limited resources, especially when it comes to avian vets.


Ok Vince, yes, I had noted that bad experience you had with the bleeding but was thinking it was due to error on the part of a vet that was not experienced with birds. I actually had a similar experience when an avian vet practice nearby cut into the toe itself of my tiel who was in the bird hospital for a few days (not Percy, another tiel in my past many years ago) and caused severe bleeding. This made no sense to me since the bird has 8 toes I didn't know why they cut repeatedly into the one toe to take multiple blood samples, eventually cutting into the toe itself causing a crisis. I was told a tech did this although I was at a highly regarded vet practice (and paying a lot of money for their services.) What good is it to me if the vet is excellent but someone else makes mistakes with my bird (when I had nothing to do with choosing who would do the procedure)? That was a long time ago and I have not had that happen anywhere else, but I'll never forget it either.

It all comes back to factors that upset us when a member of the flock is unwell. They are our family members and we are justifiably concerned.

Tiels are smart - hoping Rascal will quickly get used to the rides and that everything works out well.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> What good is it to me if the vet is excellent but someone else makes mistakes with my bird (when I had nothing to do with choosing who would do the procedure)? That was a long time ago and I have not had that happen anywhere else, but I'll never forget it either.


Vets have techs for a reason. Techs collect all the samples the vets tell them to get, so this comes down to the vet poorly training their techs. The only way this would make sense would be if they were trying to minimize the number of toes they clipped short (trust me, people actually get mad about that.)

Depending on how nervous he is, Rascal may not become used to car rides. Not all birds like them. It might come down to having to just taking him in, even if he freaks out. It's scary when they're sick.


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

roxy culver said:


> Vets have techs for a reason. Techs collect all the samples the vets tell them to get, so this comes down to the vet poorly training their techs. The only way this would make sense would be if they were trying to minimize the number of toes they clipped short (trust me, people actually get mad about that.)
> 
> Depending on how nervous he is, Rascal may not become used to car rides. Not all birds like them. It might come down to having to just taking him in, even if he freaks out. It's scary when they're sick.


Sorry for any misunderstanding - I wasn't implicating the vet tech as the problem. Of course they are necessary in a busy vet practice - people with various credentials and skills all have their part to do.
The point that the vet seemed to be trying to make by immediately blaming someone else was that it was a medical mistake that was out of his control and unavoidable (not true). I was concerned about the health of my pet and didn't want her to die or have additional problems, and I didn't care whose fault it was - I just wanted the bird to be ok and not die.
While she lived through the bleeding episode, the affected toe caused trouble the rest of her life since the injury resulted in a malformed nail that grew down and inward to the toe with the threat of repeated infection. That was my diabetic tiel Buzz - we didn't need more problems than we already had.
Today I weigh all medical visits for people and pets on a pros/cons risk assessment basis. I know better than to assume that only good can come out of a medical visit even with everyone's best intentions, from life experience.
Hoping Rascal does well and everything works out with the little guy


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> While she lived through the bleeding episode, the affected toe caused trouble the rest of her life since the injury resulted in a malformed nail that grew down and inward to the toe with the threat of repeated infection. That was my diabetic tiel Buzz - we didn't need more problems than we already had.


Yea if she was diabetic, there was no way that toe nail was going to be normal after that. That's the hugest concern in older people who are diabetic, their feet. 

Fingers crossed here too!


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

The little guy is still hanging in there....full tests booked with an Avian Vet on the 9th of August.
He is a little fighter with a strong will to live....he has been taking great comfort in spending as much time as possible resting on my chest of an evening.
He is still eating & drinking well, and his weight is table. Just still sleeping a lot, and the chronic polyuria, plus he is still shedding the immature feathers(but only from the same feather folicals), its not getting worse.
Still remaining optimistic its not PBFD, or it will likely mean a death sentence for our other beloved Tiel as well 
I just hope its something we can treat & get the beautiful little soul back to good health...
I will give an update after the visit to the Vet...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Yes, please keep us posted!


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Thank you, Vince! I've been thinking about your family and Rascal. Please continue to keep us posted; I remain concerned.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Bit of an earlier than expected "nervous" update...
Rascal has lost a few more malformed, and immature feathers 
After another phone consult(with new photos of the feathers & Rascal) with our usual Avian Vet, it is now quite likely he has PBFD.
The fact that there is more now feathers after the initial few he lost is not a good sign, and indicative of the disease.
Rather than put Rascal through the full day of stress with the 4 hrs return travel and tests at the vet we had arranged, I have a friend coming over tomorrow who is an experienced breeder & keeper, and she is going to do a "toe prick" to get a sample of blood.
She has kits for testing for PBFD(and other diseases) that get mailed into the lab for analysis.
Given that it is likely that it going to be PBFD, this seems like a better option, as a positive result will mean the trip(and all the associated stress & risk), wont have really yielded any major benefit for Rascal, other than the diagnosis.
If the test is negative, then I will still go ahead with the full tests & blood work up to get to the bottom of things.
The encouraging thing is that Rascal is still showing steady & positive signs of overall improvement, other than the continued feather loss.
The Vet has said given that being the case there is reasonable chance of a full, or partial recovery if it is PBFD, and that with good care & food(as he already receives) he may still lead lead a long & happy life.
He also said that there is little or no chance of him having contracted it since we adopted him, so he must have been a carrier prior.
He has been caged with our other Tiel for all that time & she has never shown any signs of being unwell, so it hoped that she has natural immunity, which apparently is the case with a good deal of Tiels, and the reason they dont often present with the disease.
All of this was obviously just conjecture & discussion until we have firm diagnosis from the blood tests.
Its funny....you think these sort of big ticket diseases will never affect you(or more precisely your bird), and then bam 

Oh, I forgot to mention that he also said the likely reason why the disease has presented at this time was the very heavy molt he started going through in May. Up until then he had been in perfect health, the heavy molt will have lowered his immunity to a point where the disease became active.
Again all that being said as assumption until its firmed up with the bloods...


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Thank you for the update and I hope he turns out ok in all ways (diagnosis, longevity, etc.) Rascal is most fortunate to have a (human) family that's so attentive to his well being. Thanks for the info. Your care for that tiel is inspiring to anyone who might come across this thread. Go Rascal!


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

I thought I would include a pic of our beautiful little lucky boy that has so far beaten all the odds...
And a pic of the feathers to look out for if you think your bird may be showing symptoms of PBDF, or just generally unwell.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

There is always hope!! If it does turn out to be negative for PBFD, another thing to think about when it comes to those feathers is that some birds are exposed to bad things early on in life (before you) and that can affect their feathers. I have a friend who got her male tiel from a smoking home and his feathers have never been normal. There has always been several weird ones and he has a hard time keeping flight feathers. 

So glad you were able to find someone who can come to you instead of having to take him to the vet!


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks Roxy...
Sadly its not just the feathers though unfortunately, its them, the quite extreme polyuria, and the extreme weakness bouts during the molt that all combine to point towards an underlying health issue, or disease.
Although you are very right, in that the vet also said with out knowing his previous homing history, its impossible to tell if his environment, and diet may not have contributed towards his issues, particularly kidney disease resulting from poor diet.
And the strange thing to mention when we first found him was the strong odor of salt he had. It was like a very strong salty body odor.
It was in such contrast to our other Tiel that smells like a new born chicken for the lack of a better description.
After about a couple of months of looking after Rascal, and feeding him the same diet as Cheekee, his body odor became the same as hers, like a "little chicken".
Rascal always comes like a moth to light if the kids open up a packet of potato crisps, so its possible he was given a lot of human treats high in sodium giving him the salty odor, and possibly affecting his kidneys, and/or leading to diabetes, which is the other health possibility we will be looking into if we can rule out the PBFD 

I should have mentioned also Roxy that his feathers prior to this heavy molt were all perfect, and very well formed. He had a couple of lighter molts along the way up until this one and the newly replaced feathers were also perfect. The deformed feathers only first appeared with this heavy molt and the other issues...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> I should have mentioned also Roxy that his feathers prior to this heavy molt were all perfect, and very well formed. He had a couple of lighter molts along the way up until this one and the newly replaced feathers were also perfect. The deformed feathers only first appeared with this heavy molt and the other issues...


Yea it's probably an underlying health issue for sure. Diabetes can be another option if it's PBFD. And diabetes is manageable as well. Harder in birds but not impossible. Keeping my fingers crossed for your little guy!


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Some excellent news!
He has tested negative to both PBFD & Polyomavirus!
We now just have to start working through the rest of the possibilities.
Before making the trip we have been trying to avoid, we are bringing a droppings, and urine sample, along with the malformed feathers to the avian vet to test, and examine.
If there is still no firm indication of what is going on we just have to bite the bullet & make the trip for a full work up & draw some blood.
Rascal is still slowly gaining strength, but the chronic polyuria & dropping of pinched feathers continues.
Its just great to know we are still in the game for getting a cure after ruling out PBFD 

And yes Roxy I aggree, from all I have been reading Diabetes is looking like a strong possibility as part at least of the problem.


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## tielbob (Mar 25, 2013)

Glad to hear the good news on the tests and that Rascal is getting stronger. :thumbu:


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I'm so glad it wasn't either of those things!!

The urine may help diagnose diabetes but blood is way more accurate. But it would have to be done with bird testing strips obviously. Hopefully they figure it out soon.


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## Vince (Feb 18, 2014)

Well, its looking like diabetes  You were right on the hammer Roxy.
His urine sugar levels were off the scale...so even without taking blood the vet is quite sure it will be the case.
Any input at this point would be appreciated beyond words...
Working out how to treat & manage it is going to be the next step...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

They will most likely need to see him and keep him all day. They're going to want to test his blood several times throughout the day to get an idea of how high his glucose gets. He will need to be on insulin for the rest of his life. They will give it to him and see how far it brings his levels down. I'm sorry this is what it is but at least now you know and this is something that is definitely manageable!!


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