# Will a friend cure egg laying?



## mid_life_crisis (Sep 23, 2012)

My teenager has a tiel that is thoroughly bonded to him. She recently started laying eggs. The vet said to do the darkness thing and he swears he has been, but I don't think he is consistent about it. She is getting the appropriate vitamin drops in her water to make sure she stays healthy.
She simply won't stop laying eggs.
He tells his mom and me that he read in several places on the web that if he gets her a birdie friend to keep her company she'll stop trying to lay eggs for him, or at least dramatically cut back. Is there any kind of truth to this? Is there any chance it could work? I have seen several threads by people with tiels that have laying problems who have additional birds, so I don't see how a new birdie friend could possibly stop the laying.
Any advice is appreciated.


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## Motley (Jun 5, 2012)

I have read on other threads that you shouldn't put vitamins in their water and just allow the bird to absorb natural vitamins from a healthy varied diet of vegetables, fruit ect....
Also, I'm not sure if buying a friend for the bird would help. Especially if this new bird ends up turning out male, this could increase hormones and introduce the possibility of laying FERTILE eggs.
You should insist that the teenager is more consistent with hormone reduction techniques..... Also, when buying a new bird it should be for the owners benefit, not the other bird, as they may not even like one another....
I'm not an expert, you should wait until one of the mods answer, but I hope this helps


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I think it may stop her for a bit, only because a new bird will throw off her environment and make it "not safe" to "make" babies. But that wont last long and once she adjusts to the new bird she could go right back to laying eggs. You can change her environment weekly by rearranging the cage and moving it from one side of the room to the other.

As stated above, if given a proper diet, vitamin drops are unnecessary and can cause more harm than good. http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27479 This has a lot of good info on the best diet for tiels.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hello. There is nothing that can be done about this so called problem.
It's Hormonal. She can't help it or stop it. It's all part of the natural 
cycle of life. The urge to mate & breed is far stronger in some than 
others. All those silly quick fix ideas only appear to work because the 
birds hormonal cycle gradually diminishes. 
Doing anything to discourage her behaviour is only punishing her for 
doing something she has no control over.....It's akin to the human 
female condition..Feeling broody...B.J.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> All those silly quick fix ideas only appear to work because the
> birds hormonal cycle gradually diminishes.


This is exactly WHY the hormone reduction techniques DO work in most females. It throws off their hormone cycle and they stop laying eggs, which is exactly what we want. A constantly laying hen can get ill and that's not good for her either.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi Did you actually own a lone hen that laid herself to death?
Just asking....B.J.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I haven't because I've prevented my hens from laying, but we had a member on here who did have issues with chronic laying hens and if not on the proper diet, they can be so depleted of calcium that they do die.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi. Some one who knows someone is not proof of anything....B.J.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Srtiels is a very knowledgeable breeder, so I'm pretty sure her experiences are definitely something.

But it's even more than that, a bird that is depleted of calcium will start laying soft shelled eggs and could become egg bound and die that way. OR, she should start laying soft shelled eggs and have one break inside her and get an infection and become ill that way. Its just not worth a birds health to let her continue to lay when it can be prevented. There is nothing wrong with preventing egg laying, especially if it will save a hen's life.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hi I agree with you entirely about affect of Cal deficiency
but our disagreement is about hormonal hens. NOT, about 
owners who may neglect their birds through ignorance...B.J.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I don't understand what you mean? A hormonal hen has the potential to lay. This topic is actually about a hen that is laying and has no mate. Which would be a laying hen, not just a hormonal one and she needs to be stopped. Letting a hen lay egg after egg and not even trying to stop it is just plain cruel. Sure they can lay indefinitely but there is always the risk that something could go wrong. Have you ever seen a hen with a prolapsed uterus? I have, its scary. And it happens because they dont' stop laying or they've never laid before and start. So its best to prevent the problem in the first place right?


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

prolapse, peritonitis, egg binding, septicemia, stroke, calcium deficiency (which CAN kill and cause seizures)....

ALL of these are linked to chronic laying in some way.

prolapse is where they strain so much to push the egg out that they basically have a hernia out of the vent, the cloaca and even the uterus are pushed out through the vent and THIS can kill a bird if not treated in time. 

peritonitis is infection in the abdomen, build up of fluid. if a yolk misses the organ it was supposed to go to from the ovaries, then it goes out into the body cavity, which causes mass infection. this can easily kill a bird.

septicemia is basically same thing, its an infection of the bloodstream from toxins and bacteria, can be caused by the egg yolk being in the wrong spot.

egg binding, the hen starts laying too much becomes to weak to push more eggs out, they get stuck. starts laying soft shelled eggs from calcium deficiency and these soft eggs are higher risk of being stuck.

stroke, caused by a broken egg (soft shelled are more likely, trauma can cause it, egg layers are prone to breaking an egg eventually because theyre ALWAYS laying eggs). the yolk gets into the blood stream and reaches the brain and causes a stroke. 


calcium deficiency... causes seizures and can draw calcium from the birds bones to create eggs, birds can develop deformities AND break bones. have you seen bjknight93's rescue bird Allie? her wings are permanently deformed from being broken in the past due to calcium deficiency. bjknight rescued this bird in this condition and nursed her back to health.


so YES egg laying chronically CAN kill birds. its NOT a natural thing for them to do. you do not see them laying chronically in the wild. they lay 1-2 clutches during the good season where they have access to good plentiful food to raise a family, when the days are much longer and nights are shorter.... its unnatural for them to lay eggs all the time


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## budgieandtiel (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm probably one of the least experienced members of the forum, but I want to say that anything resembling a nesting box should be removed from the cage. None of the sites I went to concerning my budgie's hormonal state told me anything of the sort, and I didn't even think to remove the box until it was suggested for a cockatiel in one of the threads here.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The hormone reduction techniques won't work on ALL birds but they work on MOST birds. I have five hens and seven cocks, and all of them except maybe Vlad want to make babies. Some of the hens will lay eggs without a nestbox if I don't intervene. I didn't want to have babies this year, and not one single egg was laid because I used the long nights treatment. It really does work.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hello Well I've spent the after noon searching for evidence that
any cage bird actually laid themselves to death. A hen laying 
infertile eggs is no more likely to lay herself to death than a paired up 
hen in a breeding cage with box.
Otherwise instead of 'Wot sex is my baby' being the most asked 
question on the pet bird webs. It would be Why has my hen died,
she was ok last night after laying her 23rd egg?' A hen will stop 
laying when her body allows her to. Not because you remove 
her swing.
The eggs are not forced out by any muscle movement as in defaecation,
the uterus prolapses & passes the egg out blunt end first. having laid the
egg the uterus returns to normal..
Can we ask has anyone ever had an unpaired boxless hen die after laying
several eggs & how many?...B.J.


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## nassrah (Feb 27, 2012)

I remember we have already had hens in this forum dying from soft shelled eggs in their abdomens an /or cronic egg-laying because the owner didnt use the hormone reducing techniques.I havent got a hen ,only two cocks,but I would go for sure with SRTiels and roxyculver s advice.I would rather play on the safe side


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> The eggs are not forced out by any muscle movement as in defaecation,
> the uterus prolapses & passes the egg out blunt end first. having laid the
> egg the uterus returns to normal..
> Can we ask has anyone ever had an unpaired boxless hen die after laying
> several eggs & how many?...B.J.


I agree its not the egg laying itself that causes the issue, it the calcium depletion. You do realize in the wild nature does its own natural hormone reduction? There are less sun hours in the winter and less food so the birds stop producing young. That's all we are doing here in captivity is replicating that. Why would you want a hen to constantly lay when you can prevent it? But I'll find those threads for you, just gonna take a bit.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27290
http://www.talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27374&highlight=prolapse
http://www.talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=20655&highlight=prolapse
http://www.talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=20677&highlight=prolapse

Here are just some examples of what happens if a hen continues to lay and most of these were breeding hens. So imagine what would happen to hen who is laying for no other reason then because she's hormonal.


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

Bird Junky, I am curious, but may I see the source for your information?


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Muscle action is used to expel the egg from the hen's body. That's why it's often recommended to put a drop of liquid calcium in the beak of an eggbound hen. Calcium is essential to normal muscle function, and eggbound hens are frequently eggbound because they don't have enough calcium left for normal muscle strength. The liquid calcium solves this problem quickly.

Here's a quote from the website of an avian veterinarian at http://www.birdvet.com.au/birdcare/EGG BINDING.htm :



> Many birds are improperly fed by their owners and eat nothing but seeds. Seeds are deficient in many vitamins and minerals, especially calcium, vitamin E and selenium. These vitamins and minerals are necessary for proper contraction of the muscles of the oviducts; improper muscle contractions can result in failure to pass the egg.


If you google on the words egg binding muscle calcium, you will find many sites that mention the muscle action involved in egg laying.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I just remembered that *Avian Medicine: Principles and Applications* by Ritchie, Harrison, and Harrison is available online. It's a major veterinary textbook, in fact it seems to be the pre-eminent textbook on avian medicine. 

The chapter on reproductive issues is at http://www.harrisonsbirdfoods.com/avmed/ampa/29.pdf and says "Along with the uterus, the vagina contributes to the muscular expulsion of the egg". This is on page 4 of the pdf document. 

Page 17 has some color photos of cockatiel embryos at various stages of development. 

Page 25 is where the discussion of chronic egg laying begins, and it states clearly that in most cases it will ultimately compromise the hen. Before the chapter even begins to discuss medical treatments, it says that "Behavior modification can be attempted to stop the laying cycle" and lists the standard do-it-yourself hormone control techniques.


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## Jony N Me (Sep 20, 2012)

It was very interesting reading these posts. as some of you know i am a new bird owner. I wanted a male bird because i didnt want to deal with the egg thing. it scared me when i heard about the potential problems. i fell in love with my bird Jony though, thought it was a boy but didnt care if she was a girl becase i loved her so much. shes still young to know for sure without a dna test ( 3.5 months) BUT everyone that sees her and knows birds.. due to her personality traits and looks, and whatever the experienced people at the bird farm did to take an educated guess... they said they believe shes a girl and i really think so. with that being said... IM STINKEN TERRIFIED NOW about EGG issues.. eeks! I always have been but now after pretty much knowing shes a girl.. ive been reading up on sites, books etc... i have to tell you.. its intimidating for a new tiel owner. I am really hoping my bird doesnt like to lay eggs all the time  im nervous! Im sure i will have many egg questions in the future.... : /


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## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

my birds are on the long nights treatment, as mentioned in this thread, and my female does NOT lay eggs  tiels are usually pretty easy to deter from laying, so just spend a lot of reading on the methods on how to prevent egg laying


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> IM STINKEN TERRIFIED NOW about EGG issues


Almost all hens can be prevented from laying eggs one way or another. The easiest ones simply won't lay an egg unless they have a nest, so all you have to do is not let them hang out in anything that resembles a nest - this means no happy huts!

The next step up is hens who will lay eggs in any random place they can find if they don't have a nest. Most of these can be stopped with simple hormone control techniques, see http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32330 for more info.

A small percentage won't stop for anything but a Lupron shot, and a very small percentage won't be stopped by anything but a hysterectomy.

Whether she ever lays eggs or not, you can definitely help your hen by making sure she has access to good calcium sources and also to vitamin D - there's info on vitamin D at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=27549

It's good to know the signs of egg binding so that if she ever does have a problem you can recognize it early and do something about it quickly http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/egg-related-problems.html

Tiel hens are delightful, loving birds who will bring a lot of joy into your life. Many single hens will never lay an egg, but if your hen does turn out to be an egg layer then taking steps to stop her is the loving, responsible thing to do. Every molecule of physical material in the egg has to come from the hen's body, and laying eggs that can't possibly be fertile is a useless drain on her physical resources.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hello I'm really enjoying this post. One little problem for me is I'm being bombarded with info ripped off the web, most of which goes a little off topic. We're not discussing anything except.... 

Has anyone got proof. That a lone hen will die from excessive egg laying & how many eggs did she lay?
Should she be discouraged by various. Old wives tale methods that appear to work because the hens, own natural instincts, hormones, call it what you will. Kick in & she stops of her own accord.... 

There are a couple of lines or phrases that consistently runs through most of the posts on egg problems..... "How to stop it" solutions.....
"It doesn't always work"...."It works in most cases". " Some may be stopped". Any cure offered with such a proviso is worthless. Doing nothing to upset the hen, has in my own experience never lead to the death of the hen.....B.J. 
ps
Message to JonyNMe We aren't discussing an everyday happening.
Most pet hens go through there whole life without laying a single egg.
This all started because I said it was cruel to punish a bird by upsetting it..


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Has anyone got proof. That a lone hen will die from excessive egg laying & how many eggs did she lay?
> Should she be discouraged by various. Old wives tale methods that appear to work because the hens, own natural instincts, hormones, call it what you will. Kick in & she stops of her own accord....


Did you read the threads I posted? Those were hens who were not stopped by their owners from laying and ended up dying. So yes, there is your proof.



> There are a couple of lines or phrases that consistently runs through most of the posts on egg problems..... "How to stop it" solutions.....
> "It doesn't always work"...."It works in most cases". " Some may be stopped". Any cure offered with such a proviso is worthless. Doing nothing to upset the hen, has in my own experience never lead to the death of the hen.


Its not going to work on every hen, just like not providing a nest box wont work on every hen. I had a hen die from egg-binding. I didn't know what it was at the time so I had no way to help her. It wasn't til after that I compared her symptoms and realized what had happened. She didn't have a nest box, I wasn't promoting her to breed but she was in the mood and at this time I didn't know about FSL. So she was unable to pass this egg and passed away instead. So yes, I have experienced it and it does happen. She had laid seven eggs prior to this (when I had her set up for breeding). 



> This all started because I said it was cruel to punish a bird by upsetting it.


So I wanted to ask...did you mean to leave the hen be and let her sit on her eggs? Which of course is true. What is usually done is to wait for the hen to abandon the eggs THEN start disrupting her environment. Do you know that's what happens in the wild? The weather changes and it causes them to stop laying. If we didn't change the "weather" in captivity it wouldn't stop. Some hens have lower hormones then others and that's why they lay. But this isn't going to work on EVERY hen (just like some diet regimes don't work on EVERY human) but it does work on MOST, not some, MOST. Its not cruel to upset her and its not punishment either. My hens are not mad that I put them to bed at 9pm and get them up at 9am. They don't mind that I don't give them a bunch of soft food throughout the year. Its normal to them so how is it cruel?



> One little problem for me is I'm being bombarded with info ripped off the web, most of which goes a little off topic. We're not discussing anything except.


I posted links from this site. Tielfan posted links to an avian medicine textbook. That's not just off the internet, it was written by avian medical professionals who know what they're talking about.

I'm glad you're enjoying this, I am too. There's a lot of helpful info being passed around!


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## Jony N Me (Sep 20, 2012)

Thank you all for the responses to my post. 
There has been a lot of useful info from this thread!
It’s very nice to read up, hear about experiences and topics etc. One can never learn enough or be overly prepared right? 
Have a great day all and like I said, you will prob see me on this forum asking many questions; this has been the perfect place to get all the answers I need


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

HELLO MID LIFE Please answer ASAP...B.J.




mid_life_crisis said:


> My teenager has a tiel that is thoroughly bonded to him. She recently started laying eggs. The vet said to do the darkness thing and he swears he has been, but I don't think he is consistent about it. She is getting the appropriate vitamin drops in her water to make sure she stays healthy.
> She simply won't stop laying eggs.
> He tells his mom and me that he read in several places on the web that if he gets her a birdie friend to keep her company she'll stop trying to lay eggs for him, or at least dramatically cut back. Is there any kind of truth to this? Is there any chance it could work? I have seen several threads by people with tiels that have laying problems who have additional birds, so I don't see how a new birdie friend could possibly stop the laying.
> Any advice is appreciated.


Hi, Everybody 
OK Lets go back to what we know. A pet hen tiel. No cock or box mentioned. So we assume neither is involved.
Your post was written on Sat 22 So she will probably have laid 2or3 by then. You wrote She wont stop laying eggs..How many has she laid to date & is she still laying? 
Vets advice doesn't work......More rubbish advice
How is the hens health after this egg laying session? Please answer ASAP......B.J.
PS Please stop quoting stuff off the web. My computer may run on gas but if I want off topic info 
I know how to get it...Lol No a friend wont stop her laying...


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Vets advice doesn't work......More rubbish advice


The vets advice isn't rubbish. Reread the post.


> he vet said to do the darkness thing and he swears he has been, but I don't think he is consistent about it.


The son isn't being consistent about the long nights treatment. For that treatment to work, you have to do it EVERY day consistently, otherwise, OF COURSE it wont work!!! It had to be done daily otherwise the hen doesn't believe. Also, this hen doesn't require a mate or a box, do you know why?


> My teenager has a tiel that is thoroughly bonded to him.


She is bonded to HIM!!! She sees HIM as her mate! I had a hen like this, she would get hormonal if I tried to give her scritches. 

But yes I agree, more info is definitely required.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

*HELLO 
*



roxy culver said:


> The vets advice isn't rubbish. Reread the post. The son isn't being consistent about the long nights treatment.
> 
> *This statement is only fathers opinion. Not a provable fact!!!
> *
> ...


*At last, something we agree on....Lol ....B.J.*
*ps I'm not shouting, Bold makes it easier to read
*


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

Sorry Bird Junky, but I fail to see how "lying" to a hen to stop her from chronic laying is a bad thing. Our cockatiels are not in the wild living natural lives, so we obviously need to intervene and do what's best for them in a captive lifestyle. As previously mentioned, hens in the wild don't lay TOO MUCH because nature tells them when it's no longer time to be breeding. Not only that, but they get unlimited sunlight in the wild which probably drastically reduces the risk of egg-binding. Even full-spectrum lighting isn't 100% the same. If we want to allow our birds to breed, and be responsible about it, that's one thing. But to let a female continue to lay eggs, thinking it's always the right time (because she is not in nature, getting Nature's cues), THAT is not natural. 

You've been given the evidence and FACTS that you asked for, and just because it exists in some form on the Internet (where we all are right now!) doesn't make it worthless. If the Internet is so untrustworthy, then why should anyone trust your opinions (on this Internet forum)? I notice that you have not provided any facts stating that chronic laying is NOT dangerous to a hen.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Vets advice doesn't work......More rubbish advice


We've given you examples of personal experience with the problem as well as citations from medical experts. You've given us nothing but your own unsupported opinion, and it takes more than that to be taken seriously. People are likely to lose interest in discussing the issue with you if you don't provide reputable sources to back up your position, or at least tell us why you are better qualified than the avian medicine experts to give advice on this issue.

I think the original question has been answered adequately. A friend won't cure egg laying, and if the friend is male the hen might eventually start laying fertile eggs instead of infertile ones. Hormone reduction techniques are usually effective at preventing unwanted egg laying, and medical interventions are available if the do it yourself methods don't work.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

Hello. All the bird deaths quoted through ie, calcium deficiency, egg 
binding, prolapsed uterus. etc. etc. Although egg related, are not 
proof of excess laying being the direct cause of death. In fact few
eggs are laid by most such unfortunate hens.. 

In all reports of so called death from excess egg laying. 
The the number of eggs laid is never given. Which seems rather strange, 
if it really was abnormally high. It would be posted all over the internet.. 

Surely with the WWW out there to help, someone should be able 
to find at least one hen that died of no other cause, But ONLY 
as a direct result of excessive egg laying & HOW many did she lay? 
It's a simple enough question......The truth is out there.....B.J.
ps Poultry doesn't count....


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Hello. All the bird deaths quoted through ie, calcium deficiency, egg
> binding, prolapsed uterus. etc. etc. Although egg related, are not
> proof of excess laying being the direct cause of death. In fact few
> eggs are laid by most such unfortunate hens..


Ah but here is the point...this was not the original question so technically this is off-topic and I believe that the OP's question has been answered. Thank you for your contribution. If you want to continue this discussion please start your own thread.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree with roxy that this thread is way off topic. But if I can address one last point:



> All the bird deaths quoted through ie, calcium deficiency, egg
> binding, prolapsed uterus. etc. etc. Although egg related, are not
> proof of excess laying being the direct cause of death.


These death-causing problems are a direct consequence of egg laying (chronic or otherwise). Egg binding obviously does not occur in a hen that is not laying or attempting to lay eggs, and the other conditions are much more likely to occur in an egg-laying bird than they are in a bird that does not lay eggs. Saying that chronic egg laying isn't dangerous is like saying that smoking isn't dangerous because a cigarette doesn't directly kill anybody; the deaths are actually a result of lung cancer, emphysema, accidentally setting the bed on fire, and other problems that are merely a side effect of smoking.


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## Bird Junky (Jul 24, 2012)

mid_life_crisis said:


> My teenager has a tiel that is thoroughly bonded to him. *She recently started laying eggs. * The vet said to do the darkness thing and he swears he has been, but I don't think he is consistent about it. She is getting the appropriate vitamin drops in her water to make sure she stays healthy.
> *She simply won't stop laying eggs.*
> He tells his mom and me that he read in several places on the web that if he gets her a birdie friend to keep her company* she'll stop trying to lay eggs for him, or at least dramatically cut back. * Is there any kind of truth to this? Is there any chance it could work? I have seen several threads by people with tiels that have laying problems who have additional birds, so I don't see how a new birdie friend could possibly stop the laying.
> Any advice is appreciated.


*Hello, after reading again, MLC's post I would say, I'm The only one who isn't OFF TOPIC..I've been trying to assure him & anyone else that the bird wont die from what he thinks is excessive laying......B.J. 
ps I take your point. THE END.*


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Now I'm closing this thread, as it has gotten way too off topic to help the OP anymore. If you guys would like to continue this discussion in another thread, please create your own, thank you!


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