# Hand feeding help



## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

Hi everyone I am looking for some advice. I am new to breeding tiels but have kept and breed birds for many years. I have 2 babies in the house from 24 hours old as mum would not look after them (very sad) so my daughter and i were removing them as they were cold and what we thought dead. As my daughter carried the little things to the house to bury them she felt one move in her hand so we blew on the poor cold things and yes they were back. I put them in a brooder and fed them electrolyte for the first day then put them on kaytee i then tried them back to mum but she never went to the box even with all their begging. So in they came and we have fed them now for 2 weeks just over. But I have encountered a problem the chicks have a streched crop and their crop is not empting properly I have put a strip of micropore tape under the crop and give electrolyte solution for 3 feeds and the crop has emptied I am wondering if the babies crop will get back to a normal self? I am so worried as i say I have never had to feed tiel chicks before and I was so pleased to get this far but I am worried I dont want to loose them now (or ever) any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks Kaz


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Please post pix's of the babies...front, downward and side veiws. And close-ups ogf what the crop looks like.

Here is my Babies in trouble album: http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/...more/Other birds/Babies in Trouble/?start=all Do any look like this?

Also...since it sounds like you have slow/sour crop this article may be helpful: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/sour-and-slow-crop-remedies.html It sounds like you will have to empty and flush the crop each feeding until you restore digestion. You will also have to make a crop bra (info below) if the tissue is over-stretched.

Also do you have a scales that weighs in grams? If not try to purchase one...such as an office supply, Walmart, online etc. You want to get the babies empty weight. You need this to calculate 10% of the body weight...which is the amount you will be handfeeding each baby per feeding. The thickness should be approx the thickness of babyfood applesauce. The temp of the formula should be 104-106 degrees.

*Crop Bra*​Shown is a pattern to make a crop bra. (pix's attached, click for a larger view) You can find the Vet Wrap or Co-Flex at most feed stores. It is a very thin flexible _self adhesive_ bandaging material. Use sharp scissors to cut the material to size. The size shown is ‘_an approx. _for 2 1/2 to 3 week old babies.

*Before you begin check to *make sure that *the crop is empty* before fitting the crop bra to the bird. If there is old or sour food in the crop you need to empty this out of the crop. An empty crop also reduces any risk of aspirating the chick, especially if it is struggling while fitting the crop bra.

I’ve found that sometimes the bandage doesn’t want to stay self adhered where pressed together. Then I will just loosely tie and knot the straps. First tie the long straps (which are the long parts of the H) *under and behind the wings*. The bottom part will be resting on the abdomen area, right behind the crop by a 1/2" Do not tie too tight. You just want it snug. Next tie off the front straps *in front of the shoulder and at the base of the back of the neck*, leaving just enough slack to form a *slight* _sling_ where the crop area is at. You want the bra fitted so that it will hold the crop tissue up *above the opening* into the body at the base of the crop. 

Let the baby get used to this before you feed him. I have seen babies fight it and flip over backwards and look like bucking bronco's until they are used to this. 

You will not be feeding as much as you normally do. The first few days you will be feeding less but more often. The goal is to have good digestion and to support the stretched crop skin so that it can start shrinking back to normal. If the crop is not fully emptying between feedings, empty what you can before feeding fresh food. **Special Note:* *When you have an overstretched crop *never use* ACV (vinegar) as a flush or in the formula. The acidity tends to hinder the tissues from shrinking.

As the baby grows check the tightness of the ties. Adjust if needed. If the baby is growing quickly cut and fit a new crop bra. Some babies only need the bra for a week, some take 2 weeks or more to have the crop tissue go back to normal. For the first few days after the crop bra is removed try to feed less more often so that you don’t stretch the healed tissue. You will notice that the crop is working fine because if you watch it you will notice it moving and churning the food. This is called _peristaltic_ actions or waves. What is going on is the muscles are churning the food to deliver it into the _cervical esophagus_ which is the opening to the digestive tract at the base of the crop. Movement should be noted every 10-15 sec. The crop itself is simply a reservoir for holding food.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

Thank you so much I will post some pictures in the morning as I have just put my camera on charge and then I am off to work. They do not look anything like the pictures you have shown me I put some medical tape on which has helped but I will make Bras for the morning when they should be empty they both weigh 38 grams and they are 20 days old.I have been feeding them 4 teaspoons every 3/4 hours and they still have food when i go to feed them. I do hope i can sort them out they are so lovely their names are Idris and George. Thank you will try and get pictures on very soon


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*38 grams and they are 20 days old*
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I sounds like the are horribly malnutritioned and stunted.

*Please go over EXACTLY* how much you are feeding and what thickness and temps it is.

*I have been feeding them 4 teaspoons every 3/4 hours and they still have food when i go to feed them.*
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_What are you using to feed them with?_ Do you have syringes, if not get them...such as at a pharmacy in the childrens section or ask the pharmacist. You will need some 5cc and 10cc syringes.

*NEVER *add more formula into a crop if there is any in there. ALL you are accomplishing is putting good food onto old food that has most likely built up harmful yeast and bacteria. Since the crop is not emptying then the delaying of emptying is farther down in the digestive tract. 

Do to the article I posted and mix up the Spice Remedy...which you will add to EACH feeding, in addition to adding a tiny bit of plain yogurt from the frocery store.

What you will do is empty the crops if they have food into them. You will only feed them 1-2cc of formula per feeding. Allowing a reasonable time...such as 3-4 hours for the crop to empty. If in this time it foes not completely empty, then you will have to empty it prior to feeding freash formula with the spices/yogurt.

If you do not know how to empty the crop then *you must ASAP* either get them to a vet to show you how to do it, *OR* find an experienced local breeder to do this and teach you how to do it.

Your babies are in *critical* shape and you *need to be *aggressive in their treatment (read the article) to reverse this.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

*I have been feeding them 4 teaspoons every 3/4 hours and they still have food when i go to feed them*

you do realize 1 tsp= 5ml= 5cc's so 4 tsps= 20ml= 20cc's, that is way to much and they are not only getting overstretched crops, but using any excess energy to digest rather than grow, the maximum your babes should be getting is 4cc's until your babes get up to 80grams in weight, you can go up 1cc for every 10 grams, but 10cc's is the maximum for a fully grown babe.

so every morning before your first feeding, use your gram scale and weigh each babe cause there feeding for that day is based on 10% of body weight, so if they weigh 30 grams thats 3cc's every 4 hours.

look through the stickies on slow crop in the breeding section.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

I am not sure how to add my pictures sorry. Thanks for all this information i have made a mistake the spoon I use is a bent egg spoon( which holds about 2 mls). The chicks seem ok in themselves it is so difficult when my nearest avian vet is 50 miles away. I have just got some plain yoghurt and will make the spice mix now .


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

At the top is a search box. I'm including a link to several past threads that were about slow crop: http://talkcockatiels.com/search.php?searchid=655295

Since your babies are also stunted here a just a few threads that cover this: http://talkcockatiels.com/search.php?searchid=655303


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

Would they be able to survive do you think .x x


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*I am not sure how to add my pictures sorry.xx*
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When you see the reply box click on: *Go Advanced*

This will bring up another screen, scroll down till you see:*Manage Attachments*....click on this

Click on *Browse*

Find you pix's on your hard drive. 

Click on add...and then click on *Upload*

Do this for each pix, then close the manage attach pix. Type your posting and Submit Reply


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*The chicks seem ok in themselves it is so difficult when my nearest avian vet is 50 miles away.*
*--------------------------------------------------*
According to your posted age and weight of them *they are not OK * This forum is *not *a replacement for a vet, or for you trying to find someone experienced and local that can physically look at these babies and give some advice and help. As far as the forum we can only try to help, which can be difficult with incomplete info.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

yazzie said:


> Would they be able to survive do you think .x x


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*Please...* When you post can you be more specific and supplu as much info as possible. If I sound frustrated it is because you are needing help and getting more info than you are willing to expend...and in the end it is the babies that suffer.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

This is the youngest


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

hope these work. The Lutino chcik is about 19 days old and weighed 38 grams empty this am the dark chick is 20 days old and weighed 38 grams this am empty. As there was a small amount of food in the dark chick this am and a small amount in the lutino i gave them a electrolyte with vitamins at 6 am then they were empty at 8 am so I then gave them a kayte formula they had 3 1/2 teaspoons (egg spoon) sorry my information is not as detailed I am not that good on the pc but I am learning. x x x


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The youngest looks like it is a lutino  It is very undersized for the age, BUT it is not showing obvious signs of stunting. So it may be that your main cause of the underweight may be that you have been feeding too thin of a fornula (you mentioned pedialyte or something similar...How many day did you do this?)....which would not give the baby enough nutrients for it's growing body. Without the adequate nutrients it would be stressing the body, which stress is the primary cause for generating secondary yeast infections that can contribute to a slow down of the crop emptying.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

With the 2nd group of pix's the skintone of the body looks great, so there is not any dehydration which can also slow the crop down.

You can you back to your posting with the pix's and click on the *Edit* button. Please add some more info such as the agges and weights. NOTE: If there is food in the crop do a guestimat of how much. For each cc deduct 1 gram from the weight to give an idea of actual weight.

No signs of stunting.

The crops are not overstrerched.

There* is *some veins showing on the dark colored baby. The Spice Remedy will help if there is a slight yeast or bacterial problem starting.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

I fed the solution for the first day and a half. I will thicken up the formula and make up your recipe and start them straight away on it.xx


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

yazzie said:


> I fed the solution for the first day and a half. I will thicken up the formula and make up your recipe and start them straight away on it.xx


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I think once you do this you will start to see some good growth. Thankfully they are not showing any serious problems so you should be able to turn them around and see a rapid improvement  

They both look like they are going to be pretty babies


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Oh...here is a link that shows development (pix's at the bottom of the page) at different ages: http://justcockatiels.weebly.com/watch-me-grow.html Weight will vary with each baby from these. This was a very large baby, so don't go by it's weight...

BUT you will notice that there is some weight gain each day. since you have a scales make it a habit to weigh each baby , when they are empty, and the same time every day. 

Weighing can be a good guage to let you know how the baby is doing. What you want to see is some weight gain each day. If the weightstops to drop it will be your dirst indication that ther is a problem starting.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

Thank you so much I am just feeding them now I will let you know how they are in the morning thank you so very much. for your help. They are so pretty .x x


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

electrolyte with* vitamins *at 6 am then they were empty at 8 am so I then gave them a kayte formula they had* 3 1/2 teaspoons *
okay because they are very well dehydrated stop the electrolyte, and never give vitamins, the formula should be a 1 part formula to 2 parts water, or should like applesauce/ baby food consistency.

okay hun 1 tsp equals 5cc's which is more than what these chicks need at this time, they should be getting just over 1/2 tsp. get a syringe measurements are easier.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

Hi I sat with all my information and had a very good study. I think I have worked out that my chicks are 38 grams (no weight gain today) so the amount of food in cc should be 3.8. per feed, I should be feeding 3 week old chicks every 4 hours which is 5 feeds a day so the total for a days feed is 19cc or almost 4 teaspoons does this sound about right? I rang my local vet and believe or not I am still waiting for them to get back to me, I have also found someone who breeds cockatiels and she told me that they are very small but they should catch up if I thicken the formula as they seem healthy enough. Should I feed the spice mix in with my formula or on its own? I would like to be able to keep updating you with their progress if this ok as you have been so kind to me i would like to thank you both very much. xxxx


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

yes that info is correct, im glad you were able to find some local help, and i hope that you will keep us updated on your beautiful babes.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

Right now I would not be going by a schedule. Most online schedules and info is for normal weight birds, which your are not.

I would suggest that at each feeding (the thickened formula) feed 10% or body weight, and the next feeding would be approx a 1/2 hour after they empty. Add the Spice Remedy and plain yogurt in each feeding for about a week.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

I have been using a bent egg spoon to feed the babies, but today I have changed over to a syringe and they are feeding a lot easier and I have got more control over the amount they are taking.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

that is good the hear, the reason its going more smoothly is a spoon is not a natural way for babes to be fed, they are used to the parents grabbing the beak and shoving food directly in the mouth, another thing you will notice is the babes are easier to keep clean.


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## leeisme (Feb 4, 2011)

Keep up the good work Yazzie. You're doing a good job!


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

I can't believe how much easier it is to feed them, they seem more satisfied as they are fed much quicker and yes cleaner.


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## yazzie (May 4, 2011)

This AM the eldest chick had a complete empty crop and gained 4 grams.
The youngest chick still had a little tiny amount in it but i think it was loose skin more than anything I have ordered some small silicone tube so I can pick up latter to flush the crop, I have given him the spice mix and some plain yoghurt and then cooled boiled water. I called the vet back and he told me to give the cool boiled water (and unbelievable that was it ).


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