# Artificial Insemination



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Hello, I'm new and have sort of read through information on this website for a while before joining!  I was wondering if anybody here had any experience doing this with cockatiels that could give me pointers. I can find plenty of information on how to do this with budgies but very little on cockatiels. About all I have found is this:

http://tpk.schattauer.de/de/inhalt/archiv/issue/special/manuscript/19597/download.html

It features a photo of a massage technique but a photo and description only go so far. It says I have to get the bird used to doing this and to attempt over a number of weeks before it can be successful.

The reason I am doing this is I only have one lutino in my flock and she isn't all that interested in mating. Figured if I can at least get a few fertilized eggs the next time she lays even if she doesn't take care of them my other two tiels will (give her some dummy eggs just in case).


----------



## Haimovfids (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi welcome to the forum 
I don't really understand this? Are you trying to breed her but she won't accept a mate or are you trying to massage that part so you can get fertilized eggs from her
Can someone please explain this to me


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Baruch said:


> Hi welcome to the forum
> I don't really understand this? Are you trying to breed her but she won't accept a mate or are you trying to massage that part so you can get fertilized eggs from her
> Can someone please explain this to me


It's true, Perky (my lutino) won't accept any sort of mate which is why I'm doing this. The part of artificial insemination that I'm having trouble with is collecting sperm from my male Zero, it's the male you use the massage technique on. The actual act of giving the sperm to a female is supposed to be very easy.


----------



## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I've never heard of this being done to a tiel. To be honest, I would consult with a vet and see if they would be willing to do it. Its not something I would do myself. 

If she's not interested in mating, you may not have a male that she likes. The hens get to choose who they mate with and obviously none of your males are good enough for her. Have you tried separating her and the male you want her to mate with by themselves so they get a chance to bond? Tiels aren't like dogs where they go into heat and mate with anything. They pick a mate. How old is she?


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

roxy culver said:


> I've never heard of this being done to a tiel. To be honest, I would consult with a vet and see if they would be willing to do it. Its not something I would do myself.
> 
> If she's not interested in mating, you may not have a male that she likes. The hens get to choose who they mate with and obviously none of your males are good enough for her. Have you tried separating her and the male you want her to mate with by themselves so they get a chance to bond? Tiels aren't like dogs where they go into heat and mate with anything. They pick a mate. How old is she?


She has been put her together with males, but being in the same cage with other birds (not just males females too) makes her nervous and shaky. Usually she's unresponsive and ends up getting attacked by the other bird. I know this is a sign of poor health but she's been checked on and I have the green light. She has not lived with me her entire life and I know the previous owner died from old age. I was given the estimate that she is about five years old and I have owned her for about a year myself.

In truth, I didn't initially buy her for breeding at all, my fiancee fell in love with her. But lutinos are so hard to come by in this area... even a clutch with half-lutino gray males is worth the effort! I could use some from that clutch to produce some more females at least. Full operation breeders in my area mostly sell, grays, pearls, and cinnamons that's it. -_-' 

Looking around I've seen so many DIY guys artificially inseminating pet birds over the net it didn't occur to me to ask a vet, but they might have some idea!   If not I might just see what kind of breeders there are a few hours away in Nashville.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

If she's not in the mood to breed, she won't lay eggs even if you manage to artificially inseminate her. My suggestion would be to pick out the male that she seems least afraid of and keep them in side by side cages for a while to give them time to get used to each other, preferably in a room where there are no other birds. Then stimulate their hormones (doing the opposite of the advice at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=32330 ) and see if that changes her attitude toward the male.


----------



## enigma731 (Aug 12, 2011)

If she doesn't want to mate and lay eggs, why would you force her? This seems ethically questionable at best to me.


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

enigma731 said:


> If she doesn't want to mate and lay eggs, why would you force her? This seems ethically questionable at best to me.


Well she does occasionally lay eggs, I may have neglected to mention that in the previous posts. My thinking on it was that I could foster her fertile eggs to my breeding pair give her some dummies and nothing bad would come from it. This sort of thing is pretty common in the avian world from what I have seen and read though it might be less so for cockatiels. That said, I can understand your dilemma.


----------



## CaliTiels (Oct 18, 2012)

I don't know about that. I never heard of it being done to a cockatiel. I've been there and have seen it done with birds of prey, but never a small bird like a cockatiel. I think artificial breeding may cause her some stress if she isn't comfortable with your flock. And furthermore, I'm not really sure how you would get semen from one of your cocks. It just seems kind of risky to me and I don't know how it would turn out. Maybe hold off on it until you know for sure if it's ok or not


----------



## Haimovfids (Sep 19, 2012)

How are you supposed to put the sperm in her vent, do you put the sperm in a syringe and just shoot it in her
And how do you collect it from the male?
This is very interesting


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

The link describes the massage technique to collect semen, and says they put it in the hen's cloaca with a glass capillary tube. There's obviously a risk of injury with this, and it probably shouldn't be done by someone who isn't trained in the procedure, or at least closely supervised by someone with training and experience.

I think you're better off encouraging her to pair up with a male and conceive naturally. If that doesn't work, you're in the United States and lutino cockatiels are easily available (although not necessarily in your area). Here's a list of some upcoming bird marts in Tennessee: http://www.birdshows.net/bird_shows_state.html#Tennessee Some of these might have vendors with lutino or split lutino cockatiels for sale.

There are also pet bird clubs in Tennessee who may be able to direct you to a breeder. 
For example:
http://www.middletennesseecagebirdclub.com/index.html
http://tennesseevalleyexoticbirdclub.com/
http://www.petstation.com/birdclub.html#REG (scroll down)
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-community/bird-club-directory/directory-listing.aspx#T


----------



## urbandecayno5 (Oct 24, 2012)

Not going to lie
I'm all for to each their own
But artificially inseminating a cockatiel sounds so bazaar to me


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Thanks for the responses! I have decided to wait and talk to my vet or somebody experienced with this down the road. My cinnamon Pikachu is in the middle of brooding a clutch which should keep me busy for a while, I might make a attempt at breeding Perky naturally again since the list tielfan posted shows the nearest birdshow is indeed in Nashville (the others are across the state in Chattanooga, Knoxville, and Memphis) and probably won't come around again until next year. But this is something I would like to learn how to do since it might make pairing simpler in some cases; but I want to learn from somebody who knows what they are doing.


----------



## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> But this is something I would like to learn how to do since it might make pairing simpler in some cases; but I want to learn from somebody who knows what they are doing.


To be honest, before you brought it up, I'd never heard of it being done to tiels before so I'm not sure how prevalent it is. It might be MORE common in the show world and that would be something to look into. But honestly, if she doesn't want to mate, I wouldn't force her to have babies. Egg laying can be very dangerous for a hen and if it isn't necessary, I wouldn't do it. Who knows, one of your males could be split to lutino, then you wouldn't need her!


----------



## Haimovfids (Sep 19, 2012)

Even If you force her to lay eggs, nobody said she would sit on them. So basically you can have eggs with a mother who was forced to lay them and she couldn't care less about them
I would sugest that you get her a male that she likes and *wants* to raise babies together


----------



## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> Even If you force her to lay eggs, nobody said she would sit on them. So basically you can have eggs with a mother who was forced to lay them and she couldn't care less about them


Baruch, he's already said he has a pair that he would foster her fertile eggs to, so that she wouldn't have to sit on them.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> before you brought it up, I'd never heard of it being done to tiels before so I'm not sure how prevalent it is.


I don't think it's commonly done to tiels at all. The link was a research paper, and their aim was to study the artificial insemination process for parrots in general so it could be used more effectively with endangered species. They weren't specifically interested in artificially inseminating cockatiels, they just happened to pick cockatiels as their test bird. I watched a documentary once where they artificially inseminated a kakapo (a very endangered parrot), and they flew an expert from Europe (I think) to New Zealand to do it. http://www.kakaporecovery.org.nz/index.php?view=article&id=217:ai&option=com_content&Itemid=221


----------



## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

Artificial insemination in birds is done only in species that are nearing extinction. I don't see any good reason to do this to a cockatiel, even if it is a lutino.


----------



## johnplayerson (Jul 2, 2013)

*Semi artificial insemination.*

I have a pair of cockatiels that do not seem to mate very well on their own. She protects the nest box too much, not letting the cock to get near. 

If i take them both out and go sit on the couch in the living room the birds will mate right in my hands. I take the hen and massage her behind her head and hold her head down a bit. When she starts to chirp, the male jumps right on top of her and does his thing to her right in my hands. I try to bend my fingers away as much as possible so their vents rub together good. 

I seen lots of videos of cockatiels mating, but certainly never seen this before I ended up trying it. The do the deed every time


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

That's definitely an unusual way to get your birds to mate! I'd recommend taking the nestbox down though; this is what we call a bondage pair, as opposed to a bonded pair. Bondage pairs tend to be bad parents, since they're too busy fighting with each other to take proper care of the eggs and chicks. There's more info on this at http://talkcockatiels.com/showthread.php?t=36810


----------



## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

With all due respect, I find the idea of forcing - or even inducing - an innocent animal to mate and reproduce really repulsive. You might not be interested in my moral opinion but I'd like you to explain to me how this is different from doing the same to a trusty, mentally slow human being. I could understand the logic of doing it to a kakapo, that's a very sad situation and nothing to do with greed; but in this case, and in both the "techniques" explained in this thread [stimulate the female so she will accept the mating], it's nothing but the rape of two innocents.
Maybe I am weird and the only one to think this way? I hope not


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

bobobubu said:


> With all due respect, I find the idea of forcing - or even inducing - an innocent animal to mate and reproduce really repulsive. You might not be interested in my moral opinion but I'd like you to explain to me how this is different from doing the same to a trusty, mentally slow human being. I could understand the logic of doing it to a kakapo, that's a very sad situation and nothing to do with greed; but in this case, and in both the "techniques" explained in this thread [stimulate the female so she will accept the mating], it's nothing but the rape of two innocents.
> Maybe I am weird and the only one to think this way? I hope not


I would consider extreme cases of mating an animal to the point where its health declines a form of abuse. When it comes to birds choosing pairs and artificial insemination is the status quo in the world. Birds deserve good treatment from their owners but they aren't human. If they were we would not keep them in cages.


----------



## bjknight93 (Nov 13, 2011)

I treat my animals as human and I think they are worth just as much, so that is a matter of opinion about how they should be treated.


----------



## catalinadee (Jan 1, 2011)

I personally would not AI a cockatiel, I think it is unnecessary. AI is usually commonly done in raptors but not a lot else. The Spix's macaw has recently been bred successfully through this method but that is far more understandable. However, as cockatiels are extremely common as it is I don't think it should be done and you should just be content with birds you are already having success with. That, or get more


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

personally, i have to agree with bobobubu... i dont really like the idea of forcing this. to me, it just sounds wrong and unfair to the bird, who may very well have her reasons for not wanting to mate. i personally think you should just locate a lutino in the area if you want another lutino so badly, or just enjoy the one you have for the individual she is, not for her colour.


why do you want lutinos? to breed more of them? for what? what are you trying to do, what is your goal in breeding? i just dont understand your purpose, all i see is personal gain, and i do not think this is good enough reason to breed. nor with these methods. if you can explain to me your reasoning, your goals and such, i will hear you out. but i just don't understand. there are many lutinos out there, it's a fairly common mutation....




just my honest opinion... also, my pets are family, they are my kids and they are treated as such. so, they are human to me. only difference is they're hairy or feathered and walk on 4 legs or have wings. frankly, they're not much different from my husband in terms of behaviour--they all act like toddlers!


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

My birds are my family too, and this is an old thread I did not AI any of my birds. I would venture to say keeping a bird as a pet in a cage instead of in the wild is a form of personal gain even considering the emotional connection that comes with it. The simple fact is that bird's lives are considered of less importance than human's birds cannot own property or leave a will or tell us how they feel. Don't get me wrong birds do have feelings for sure, but so do chickens and cows and we have no problem grinding down those animals and eating them. Parrots like cockatiels are only special in the sense that we as a society chose them as pets.


----------



## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

While it's true the pets don't have a say about where they go or who they end up with, a lot of us make a commitment to them to provide them with a good life, good care and fulfillment. We are here because we care and we want to learn and want to become better care providers. 

And I was waiting for the meat and milk remark. I for one became a vegan the very second I left my parents' house 10 years ago, and I am sure I'm not the only one in this forum who doesn't use animal products, and we are healthy and happy and commited to animal welfare.

And the guy that makes the birds mate on his hand.. Really? I hope they keep having fun at your expense and never lay a single egg.

Treehugger out


----------



## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

I have a huge problem grinding those animals down and eating them, and more and more people are starting to question the way we put food on our tables.
When you talk about status quo in the world, please note that in the past the status quo was to burn on stakes quirky people; black americans were not allowed to use public facilities; women are still systematically mutilated. Animals have been hunted to extinction to give us beauty products and magic potions, and we want to talk about cock fighting? 
You think it's ok to have animals do things they don't need or want to do because after all they have no legal rights; that's fair enough, nowadays we are allowed to have personal opinions... But that has nothing to do with the status quo.


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

> why do you want lutinos? to breed more of them? for what? what are you trying to do, what is your goal in breeding? i just dont understand your purpose, all i see is personal gain, and i do not think this is good enough reason to breed. nor with these methods. if you can explain to me your reasoning, your goals and such, i will hear you out. but i just don't understand. there are many lutinos out there, it's a fairly common mutation....


Lol yes! I wanted to get a young split lutino male from her for breeding. I don't feel any remorse about that, but I have found just using breeding vitamins to stimulate her was a better choice than running the risks of AI. I have already said if she doesn't produce I'm not going to get rid of her but I might look into getting a split Lutino or a Lutino for breeding. My goal in breeding is to occupy my time, I have a profession as a butcher so I don't need the money and I enjoy their company especially the young ones. But if you ask me if I hold my pet's lives over that of my brother or my sister then the answer is no.



Tequilagirl said:


> While it's true the pets don't have a say about where they go or who they end up with, a lot of us make a commitment to them to provide them with a good life, good care and fulfillment. We are here because we care and we want to learn and want to become better care providers.
> 
> And I was waiting for the meat and milk remark. I for one became a vegan the very second I left my parents' house 10 years ago, and I am sure I'm not the only one in this forum who doesn't use animal products, and we are healthy and happy and commited to animal welfare.
> 
> ...


While I respect your views, when faced with a dilemma like finding out where your meat comes from you can either accept the fact that these animals with feelings are slaughtered for your benefit or rebel. Clearly I was more accepting.  If you think they are human I encourage you, let them roam your home out of their cage 24/7 and take them to the mall with you without using a harness... if they leave your care or somehow harm themselves because they don't know any better that's because they are animals and not human. This isn't something popular to say but it's the honest thing.



bobobubu said:


> I have a huge problem grinding those animals down and eating them, and more and more people are starting to question the way we put food on our tables.
> When you talk about status quo in the world, please note that in the past the status quo was to burn on stakes quirky people; black americans were not allowed to use public facilities; women are still systematically mutilated. Animals have been hunted to extinction to give us beauty products and magic potions, and we want to talk about cock fighting?
> You think it's ok to have animals do things they don't need or want to do because after all they have no legal rights; that's fair enough, nowadays we are allowed to have personal opinions... But that has nothing to do with the status quo.


Then I encourage you start an animal rights petition so we can have the world's first parrot president lol.


----------



## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

Darkel777 said:


> While I respect your views, when faced with a dilemma like finding out where your meat comes from you can either accept the fact that these animals with feelings are slaughtered for your benefit or rebel. Clearly I was more accepting.  If you think they are human I encourage you, let them roam your home out of their cage 24/7 and take them to the mall with you without using a harness... if they leave your care or somehow harm themselves because they don't know any better that's because they are animals and not human. This isn't something popular to say but it's the honest thing.


I never did once say my animals are human or are treated as such. They are animals and have their own behaviours and ways of communication. They are exercised daily and kept away from harm, they have a cage so they can claim a territory for themselves and feel safe. From my point of view understanding animal care starts from treating them for what they are. So forgive me if I'd rather use a harness than throwing them to the hordes of seagulls that roam around my city.

I have no more objection to what you want to do than to the people who come here asking for advice but refuse to take their pets to the vet, or keep them in unsuitable cages, so this is by no means a personal attack.

Treehugger out for real now 

PS. I don't have a problem with people eating meat or using animal products, what I have a problem with is with the methods of mass production that feeds them cheap cr*ap and pumps them full of antibiotics, only to be slaughtered in the most horrific way possible just because it's cost effective.


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

Tequilagirl said:


> I never did once say my animals are human or are treated as such. They are animals and have their own behaviours and ways of communication. They are exercised daily and kept away from harm, they have a cage so they can claim a territory for themselves and feel safe. From my point of view understanding animal care starts from treating them for what they are. So forgive me if I'd rather use a harness than throwing them to the hordes of seagulls that roam around my city.
> 
> I have no more objection to what you want to do than to the people who come here asking for advice but refuse to take their pets to the vet, or keep them in unsuitable cages, so this is by no means a personal attack.
> 
> ...


I don't believe you. I think you have more of an objection to me than those others who do the things you described with the **** fire that's raining down lol.


----------



## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Darkel777 said:


> Then I encourage you start an animal rights petition so we can have the world's first parrot president lol.


I was actually starting to feel sorry for you. I see now it's a complete waste of good sentiments so it's good bye from me; good luck to your birds and the even more unfortunate ones living with johnplayerson.


----------



## Darkel777 (Jun 7, 2013)

bobobubu said:


> I was actually starting to feel sorry for you. I see now it's a complete waste of good sentiments so it's good bye from me; good luck to your birds and the even more unfortunate ones living with johnplayerson.


If you say so... Godric looks pretty happy to me.


----------



## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

Darkel777 said:


> I don't believe you. I think you have more of an objection to me than those others who do the things you described with the **** fire that's raining down lol.


I really don't. I don't think you're mistreating your birds, I think you were looking for options to breed a lutino that doesn't want a partner. I found the other guy with the birds mating on his hand way creepier, personally. 

As much as I care for animals in general, I don't value their lives over one of a human being's, I think if someone does, it's time for them to set their priorities straight. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## urbandecayno5 (Oct 24, 2012)

Tequilagirl said:


> I found the other guy with the birds mating on his hand way creepier, personally


.......... :rofl:


----------



## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

To be honest, its like when dog fighters hold a female pit down to get her to mate so they can get more babies out of her. If the hen wont even let the male in the box, this is a bondage pair and they should not be allowed to mate or reproduce in the first place.

As to the rest of it, I have nothing to say. I like to keep my personal beliefs off the forum.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I would consider the second example to be seduction rather than rape, but true pair bonding is the natural way that cockatiels reproduce. Your chances of success are iffy if the hen has to be seduced into accepting a male that she doesn't really like.

A better argument can be made for the "artificial insemination is rape" position, since the hen is basically being force-mated with no choice in the matter at all. But there are modifying factors here too. You can't just randomly grab a hen and inseminate her and expect anything to happen; her hormones have to be in breeding mode for her to conceive, and if her hormones are at the right level she will be actively wanting to reproduce. So AI will give her something that she wants although it's definitely not the way she would want to go about it. Natural breeding is a much better method for common birds like cockatiels, especially since a bonded pair can take care of the eggs/babies better than a single parent can.


----------



## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Tielfan, it would be an act of seduction if it was the male tiel who acts to change the hen's mind about mating. But here we are talking about a guy who, to put it delicately, puts his hen in the mood so the male can jump her, the whole scene happening on this man's hand. It is such a disturbing image, what's this man's business to mess with his birds' sexuality??? This isn't about breeding anymore, this is something else completely and there are names for it. These little animals trust us to keep them happy and safe, not to mess with them. I am not a prude, believe me, but I find this stuff highly abominable.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

I don't get the impression that he has evil intentions; he just wants his birds to breed, and this is the only way he can get the hen to cooperate. I do think it's wrongheaded to breed them this way, since you really need to have a bonded pair for best results. 

I watch my birds mate and laugh about it, which makes me a voyeur I suppose. As far as I know, pretty much everybody with breeding birds thinks it's fun to watch them do their thing. And if I thought it would actually work, I'd pick Vlad up and put him on Mims and show him how it's done. He's been trying to figure it out on his own for several years now with no success, and she's desperate for it but won't pair up with a more competent male. I don't have this next issue in my house, but there are people whose bird is romantically in love with them and masturbates on their hand, and they let the bird do it. It's not that unusual for people to be involved in their bird's sex life in some way, and I don't think it's kinky as long as the person isn't directly using the bird for their own sexual gratification.


----------



## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Ok, if you see what this guy does in the same light as you trying to help a couple of willing and inexperienced birds, or laughing while you watch your birds mate in front of you [as it happens to everyone of us] we will just have to agree to disagree. 
I had one bird humping my foot to death and all I could do was laugh and tell him that he was daft... now, if I picked him up and masturbate him, that would have been a completely different story, no? I don't think we have the right to mess with the mind of a confused animal, stimulate them sexually, push them to fight etc.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> if you see what this guy does in the same light as you trying to help a couple of willing and inexperienced birds


I don't see how it's all that different. He says gets the female in the mood by rubbing her head (not her vent), and at the moment the birds mate she's perfectly willing to let it happen. I don't know why she doesn't want the male as her mate, but it's possible that she really is inexperienced and is generally nervous about letting other birds get too close to her because she's been attacked in the past. There's at least a chance that this relationship could eventually lead to them forming a pair bond.

I have some incest issues in my flock (a brother/sister pair and a son who wants to mate with his mother). If I could get them to mate with someone more appropriate by holding a hen in my hand and rubbing her head, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and then hope that this encounter would lead to a permanent relationship. It's contrary to the birds' personal inclinations, but they'd all be better off in the long run if I could get them to re-pair. The birds who are currently forbidden to have babies could start breeding.


----------



## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

P.S. I'd like to point out that we don't know the whole story here. The poster with the "mating in the hand" birds is a new member with only one post, and we don't know how much he knows about breeding cockatiels. At the very least, it looks like he could use some information about the importance of the pair bond. We don't know how long these birds have been together - for all we know it's only been a week. It's very common for people to put a male and female together and give them a nestbox and expect them to start making babies right away, and they need to be taught that it doesn't work that way with cockatiels. 

So there was an educational opportunity here, and I'm afraid that we might have missed it. Most people don't react well to being called a pervert or degenerate, which has been implied on this thread. But we don't really have enough information to make that determination. 

All we have is a guy who's discovered that his hen is willing to mate with the male if he rubs her head first. Human society has turned sex into a huge colossal deal fraught with deep implications, but apparently animals have a much simpler approach. The hen might not be willing to accept the male without getting a head rub first, but she does accept him under those conditions and probably enjoys it. It's not likely that she'll be overcome with guilt and remorse afterward. The biggest problem that I have with this arrangement is that she could end up hatching out babies without having a mate to help her raise them, and we can't talk to the poster about issues like this unless he's here and listening. Which won't happen if we drive him off with judgment-passing.


----------



## MeanneyFids (Aug 24, 2010)

*This thread is closed, as it is an older thread, and the OP has answered his questions *


----------

