# Sigh...what to do? Astrid biting HARD.



## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

So, ONCE Astrid let me scritch her. Here's how it went down: Solaire was on my shoulder getting scritches. Astrid came over, wanting to join in on the fun, and began preening Solaire's wing. I reached over and scritched her and she let me.

Since then, I've been seeing if I could do it again. She's done the same thing -- approached a bird while I was preening them (Solaire, Juju, Gypsy, Willow) and usually the other bird notices and chases her off. But when she gets close I will offer a finger just in case she's receptive. I can tell she WANTS to be preened. But, so far, every time since the first time that I've offered my finger she's bitten me very hard. Not in an aggressive way, as far as I can tell, because she doesn't seem scared or defensive and she doesn't hiss. It seems more like she's excited about the finger coming near, like she thinks it's a treat or a toy. And then, CHOMP. YE GODS her beak is sharp! She nailed my index finger on the side, right next to the nail, and took a tiny chunk out. It doesn't look like much but it was deep, and my finger's been throbbing ever since.

So, what do you guys think I should do? Quit offering to scritch her? In other ways, she is getting better about the biting. She's sat on my arm and my leg and preened my hairs pretty gently. She even sat on my shoulder near my neck without turning into a vampire. It just seems like as her fear of my hands lessens, she is starting to see them as things to bite. She's probably just curious. For all I know, she's trying to preen me and just doesn't comprehend her strength. She's still very very skittish and flies off at the drop of a hat so I have to be careful that my reactions don't frighten her.

But I want her to know that I can offer her companionship if she wants. She was lonely for a while before she came to live with me, and ever since she joined the flock she hasn't bonded with anyone. She asks her toys for scritches. It's so sad! And she likes me, I know she does, she just doesn't understand how to interact with humans and especially not with hands.


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## scootergirl762 (Aug 27, 2013)

I don't know much about why birds bite, but whenever I've been bitten hard enough to draw blood I think it's because I overstepped and either frightened the bird or invaded it's space. Perhaps you can reinforce all the other progress you've made with her for awhile, all the time giving the other birds skritches and let her observe. I have a funny feeling if she wants the get the same attention she's going to let you know. In either case, backing off that one thing would be my instinct for now.


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## urbandecayno5 (Oct 24, 2012)

It does seem like she takes most of the cues from the other birds
I'm thinking she's just not comfortable doing things, or atleast being around fingers/get scritches, by herself yet
Maybe try millet bribery?

I still can't believe the progress she's made so fast
I'm sure it will just click one day(especially since she's a fast learner) and you'll have one more begging for scritches


Hank rarely bites unless she's acting like a grumpy cow
Even then so she doesn't bite hard at all..more of like nips so I can't help with that
Astrid probably doesn't know her own strength


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## JanP (Aug 27, 2013)

Wear a soft glove and see how that goes...
Maybe she doesn't like hands..


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## cknauf (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm in a similar spot with JJ at the moment--he _seems_ to be asking for scritches, but then bites if I touch him. With JJ it seems more like an angry "Don't touch me!" response than excitement.

Will she let you touch her with your chin or nose? Petting that way been a bit more successful with JJ.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I would say try offering millet when she gets that close and then while she's chomping on that try scritching her. She wants it, but I don't think she realizes that's what the finger is there for.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

'Learner' birds can be conflicted about scritches. They know there's something good there and they want it, but they're also kind of scared about it (or something). So they ask and then refuse.

Sometimes it works best if you can slip the finger in when they're not paying too much attention. I've taught several birds to love the finger by sneaking it in while I was nuzzling them with my nose (it's funny how some birds are much more comfortable with having your big huge face approach them than your much-smaller hand). When the bird noticed the substitution they'd get mad, but after a few times they didn't care any more and were fine with the finger. roxy's "scritch while they're eating millet" ploy is a good one too, I've used that with some birds. When they start enjoying the finger so much that they forget to nibble the millet, that's when you've really got them!


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## urbandecayno5 (Oct 24, 2012)

I actually think your situation isn't working out and you'll need to send Astrid here ASAP:yes:


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I definitely don't think she's scared... I know her body language pretty well by now and if she's frightened or doesn't like something, she recoils in horror and/or flies away. 

In this case, it's like I can see her thinking, "Oooh yes! Gimme!!!" When my finger approaches. 

I will try the millet trick, but somehow I don't think it will go over well since she only seems to get curious about the scritches when I'm scritching another bird. If only the other bird would not notice her coming and get annoyed! For some reason she always tries to preen the bird being scritched. Solaire didn't notice the first time it happened and that's how I snuck the scritch in for her. She did see that it was me but she had her beak on Solaire so she was too distracted to put it on me.

I certainly can't put my face near her, because she reacts the same way to that. She actually loves my face and is curious about it! If I turn it toward her when she's on my shoulder she'll try to nibble my lips. And by nibble I mean BITE REALLY HARD. No thanks!! It's one thing to have a finger bleed, but I draw the line somwhere. 

Thing is, she needs to be able to explore my hands to lose her fear. Taste them and test them. Willow is in this phase right now too, and Freya did it when I first got her. But both of them seem to inherently know how hard is too hard. Astrid might just be a little crazy. But maybe she'll stop doing it in time if I just grit my teeth and let her bite a few times?

Last night she chose to sit on my arm (bare skin) instead of my covered shoulder. That's big for her.



urbandecayno5 said:


> I actually think your situation isn't working out and you'll need to send Astrid here ASAP:yes:


lol! What would Hank think??


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> But maybe she'll stop doing it in time if I just grit my teeth and let her bite a few times?


Its painful, but yes it will happen. When we first got Screech, he drew blood all the time. But there were times (i.e. nail clippings/showers) that I needed to handle him whether he liked it or not. Its the only time I've ever used leather gloves with a tiel, ever. I don't normally recommend it because it can scare them but in his case, once he realized that I wasn't going to let him go by him biting me, they turned into little nips and not hard bites anymore. After that, as long as I gave him his space, he was OK with being handled when needed. But I don't think Astrid needs that extreme.


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## urbandecayno5 (Oct 24, 2012)

Hank would leave and never come back if I brought home another tiel
She doesn't play nice in the sand box:rofl:


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

But....how would you know if you've never tried??  (Not that I'm saying you can have Astrid, lol).

Roxy, I guess I'll just hope she gets over her "Hey human you are interesting, let me taste your blood!" phase eventually. lol. I think she would HATE gloves and honestly it's pretty easy to avoid her bites if I don't put my fingers near her face. If I ever had to clip her nails I'd towel her.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

She should eventually! Hershey did, although with her I didn't have to use gloves, it was just a lot of patience and following her around as she waddled on the floor (and man did she waddle).


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

I love the tiel waddle...it's adorable. The biting, not so much.

I think the thing with Astrid is, when she's first investigating something and testing it out, she asks herself, "What is this? What's it made of? I'd better bite it and find out!" She was like that with the other parts of my body that she checked out at first. But now it's just the hands. So I'm hoping this is just her way of sorting things out mentally and once she's satisfied with her "investigation" of the fingers she'll stop.


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## cknauf (Aug 27, 2012)

I've had some thought imitating a squawk noise (the one when you accidentally brush a blood feather too hard) in discouraging biting too hard. Pippin and now JJ are both pretty rough when they "preen" me, but they've become better at knowing what's too hard, I think.

I'm not sure how Astrid would tolerate a sudden loud noise though.


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## eduardo (Jan 27, 2012)

cknauf said:


> I've had some thought imitating a squawk noise (the one when you accidentally brush a blood feather too hard) in discouraging biting too hard. Pippin and now JJ are both pretty rough when they "preen" me, but they've become better at knowing what's too hard, I think.
> 
> I'm not sure how Astrid would tolerate a sudden loud noise though.


I know what you mean! Candy is a very overzealous preener, she thinks she is doing such a good job, but she can hurt!! She likes giving kisses and preening my lips, and I am not gonna lie - she punched my lips on many occasions to the point of me tearing up. I haven't really been able to resolve this issue with her. She also like to preen my skin and I swear she likes to nibble and eat microscopic pieces of it, ouch! it's sort of an obsession for her, any time she sees exposed skin, she goes for it, and I mean in the split of a second, before I can even react. It is really annoying, but I am learning to cover my neck and upper arm areas so she doesn't have access to the skin. If she realizes she can't do it to me, then she immediately goes to preen herself, sometimes to the point of hurting herself. I do feel bad for her, but I really think she has some neurological issue. you know, kind of like some people are so anxious that they constantly bite their nails or pull their hair.


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## Tequilagirl (Mar 4, 2013)

I took a nap on the couch a few days ago and woke up to a stabbing pain in my stomach. Guess who was trying to rip a freckle off my tummy lol, I feel your pain.

Have no advice for you but I hope everything works out soon, for your poor finger's sake!


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## ccollin13 (May 24, 2013)

Tommy is also a biter, because he's overattached to my mom. So when I need to handle him to examine his feather condition, I've just had to let him bite me... and he actually stopped doing it after a while, because he learned that it wouldn't make me going away. He occassionally nips me, but it's nothing like it used to be. So maybe it would work for you... not the same birds or situation, but thought I'd share my experience.

But, I have a higher bite-pain tolerance than most people... it comes with having a grouchy Pionus, and an M2. When Petey the Pionus bites, he digs in and rubs his mandibles back and forth... now THAT sucks. It's so hard not to react when he does that


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> For some reason she always tries to preen the bird being scritched.


Is it always the same bird or is it a variety? Either way, it sounds like maybe her real interest is in finding a mate, and she wants the other bird to get snuggly with her instead of with you. And then you, the romantic rival, offer her a golden opportunity to give you a good chomp!

It does sound like competitive preening, just maybe not the kind you want lol.


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

cknauf said:


> I've had some thought imitating a squawk noise (the one when you accidentally brush a blood feather too hard) in discouraging biting too hard. Pippin and now JJ are both pretty rough when they "preen" me, but they've become better at knowing what's too hard, I think.
> 
> I'm not sure how Astrid would tolerate a sudden loud noise though.


I tried this when she was biting my neck, and it scared her. Too bad because it's a great idea! Now that she is getting a bit more comfortable with me I might try it again.



eduardo said:


> I know what you mean! Candy is a very overzealous preener, she thinks she is doing such a good job, but she can hurt!! She likes giving kisses and preening my lips, and I am not gonna lie - she punched my lips on many occasions to the point of me tearing up. I haven't really been able to resolve this issue with her. She also like to preen my skin and I swear she likes to nibble and eat microscopic pieces of it, ouch! it's sort of an obsession for her, any time she sees exposed skin, she goes for it, and I mean in the split of a second, before I can even react. It is really annoying, but I am learning to cover my neck and upper arm areas so she doesn't have access to the skin. If she realizes she can't do it to me, then she immediately goes to preen herself, sometimes to the point of hurting herself. I do feel bad for her, but I really think she has some neurological issue. you know, kind of like some people are so anxious that they constantly bite their nails or pull their hair.


Oh, no! Poor you, and Candy loves you so much so you have to suffer so much of her preening. I feel for ya!



Tequilagirl said:


> I took a nap on the couch a few days ago and woke up to a stabbing pain in my stomach. Guess who was trying to rip a freckle off my tummy lol, I feel your pain.
> 
> Have no advice for you but I hope everything works out soon, for your poor finger's sake!


Eek! Not fun.
My finger is all swollen now; despite me washing it with soap immediately I think it got infected. 



ccollin13 said:


> Tommy is also a biter, because he's overattached to my mom. So when I need to handle him to examine his feather condition, I've just had to let him bite me... and he actually stopped doing it after a while, because he learned that it wouldn't make me going away. He occassionally nips me, but it's nothing like it used to be. So maybe it would work for you... not the same birds or situation, but thought I'd share my experience.
> 
> But, I have a higher bite-pain tolerance than most people... it comes with having a grouchy Pionus, and an M2. When Petey the Pionus bites, he digs in and rubs his mandibles back and forth... now THAT sucks. It's so hard not to react when he does that


Ow! Astrid's bites hurt and her beak is sharp, but she doesn't hang on and grind. I genuinely do NOT think she is trying to achieve anything when she bites, other than just testing things. She's so curious. But hopefully she'll get tired of the game after a while, the same way the novelty wears off anything.



tielfan said:


> Is it always the same bird or is it a variety? Either way, it sounds like maybe her real interest is in finding a mate, and she wants the other bird to get snuggly with her instead of with you. And then you, the romantic rival, offer her a golden opportunity to give you a good chomp!
> 
> It does sound like competitive preening, just maybe not the kind you want lol.


No, not always the same bird. It doesn't matter which one...she just seems interested in the fact that scritches are being given. I've not seen a single shred of evidence that she wants a mate, honestly. She's never tried to cozy up to another bird, never asked anyone for scritches or anything. She does her own thing all the time. It's only when I'm giving out scritches that she seems interested. Plus, her flying to me? Taking the initiative, despite how fearful she was at first? I'm not saying she sees ME as a mate but I do take those as signs that she is receptive to some sort of relationship with me.

I've spent quite a bit of time around tiels now, and I've never before had trouble telling when they are annoyed or angry. Their body language is generally not remotely difficult for me to read. I'm just not getting an angry vibe from Astrid when she bites.

Sorry if it seems like I'm dismissing what you're saying! It's a logical explanation.  I'm just not convinced it's what's going on here. If it WAS, I'd be even more confused. Granted Astrid is a bit of an enigma!


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

> Sorry if it seems like I'm dismissing what you're saying!


It's fine to dismiss it if it's not the right explanation! There's a lot of guesswork in figuring out what the problem is and how to solve it, and it's good when the person on the scene thinks about the various ideas before deciding which one is the best fit. When I'm speculating about something I use words like "maybe" and I did use that word this time.


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

I do appreciate your thoughts. 
Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Also I think Astrid may be a little confused herself, haha.


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## Korvia (Aug 3, 2012)

I personally think it'll just take time.
I had a tiel before Bandit he was a nasty biter all I did was not react when he bit and eventually he just stopped.
Something we do at moms when the sennies bite is push back at them lightly,enough that they lose balance slightly and have to let go to right them self's.


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## TheTielLover (Aug 26, 2013)

There are sprays like Phooey and Bitter Apple that taste really nasty. I don't know if it's safe for birds, but if it is, that might help with the biting? It's sold for dogs, so again, I'm not sure it's safe.


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## bobobubu (Dec 12, 2011)

Poor baby Astrid, asking toys for scritches! Bubu does the same, Moonchild, with pens, with his fishy toy, any object he likes he will sit next to it and put his head down. It makes my heart melt. The other day he stole a carrot ring and tried to convince it to give him a preen... who knows, maybe because it's orange


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## thewandererw (Aug 22, 2011)

Up side down was doing this to biting hard enough to draw blood a few times but he is getting better with it I've had him for 2 1/2 months now.


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## tielfan (Aug 31, 2008)

Here's something you can try. I don't know whether it will make any difference or not, but you've got nothing to lose. For at least a week, don't try to pet her when she's doing this. Let her preen the other bird all she wants while you keep scritching that bird. Maybe have some treats nearby that you can offer to both birds. This will let her get used to the general situation without having to contend with the finger, and maybe she'll get tired of being the one doing all the allopreening. Then when the time seems right, make a move for her head!


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## moonchild (Jul 29, 2012)

Korvia said:


> I personally think it'll just take time.
> I had a tiel before Bandit he was a nasty biter all I did was not react when he bit and eventually he just stopped.
> Something we do at moms when the sennies bite is push back at them lightly,enough that they lose balance slightly and have to let go to right them self's.


Yeah, I think time is the key. If anything she'll probably just get bored of it after a while. I just hope she decides to let me give her scritches one day. If not, though, no big deal.



TheTielLover said:


> There are sprays like Phooey and Bitter Apple that taste really nasty. I don't know if it's safe for birds, but if it is, that might help with the biting? It's sold for dogs, so again, I'm not sure it's safe.


I once rescued a parakeet with a broken leg, and after I took him to get it set he kept on chewing the splint. I tried the bitter apple stuff and it didn't work at all. Too bad! That would be convenient.

But even if it did work, I wouldn't want to taste nasty for my other birds when they preen me.



bobobubu said:


> Poor baby Astrid, asking toys for scritches! Bubu does the same, Moonchild, with pens, with his fishy toy, any object he likes he will sit next to it and put his head down. It makes my heart melt. The other day he stole a carrot ring and tried to convince it to give him a preen... who knows, maybe because it's orange


awwww. It's just so sad when they do that isn't it! But also funny. Moon will sometimes ask a toy for scritches because Freya refuses.



thewandererw said:


> Up side down was doing this to biting hard enough to draw blood a few times but he is getting better with it I've had him for 2 1/2 months now.


Good to know. I've had Astrid almost five months now but she was very standoffish and avoided me for the first three and a half. I hope we can make a lot more progress by the time the year mark rolls around.



tielfan said:


> Here's something you can try. I don't know whether it will make any difference or not, but you've got nothing to lose. For at least a week, don't try to pet her when she's doing this. Let her preen the other bird all she wants while you keep scritching that bird. Maybe have some treats nearby that you can offer to both birds. This will let her get used to the general situation without having to contend with the finger, and maybe she'll get tired of being the one doing all the allopreening. Then when the time seems right, make a move for her head!


Excellent idea. If only the birds would go for it! lol. They really make things difficult sometimes with their jealous fits. No one wants any other bird near them when they're getting preened by me. They're all more bonded to me than to each other (well, except Moon and Freya, but they don't ask ME for scritches).

I have stopped offering my finger for now. For one thing, it needs to heal! But I think she is not ready. She needs to observe the scritching for a while longer and work things out in that little head of hers.


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