# Un-bonding birds?



## caterpillar (Oct 14, 2013)

I'm wondering if it's customary for experienced tiel owners to decide that a bonded pair of birds does not have a healthy bond, and that they should be separated in some way -- either by physically separating them and/or by (perhaps more precariously) instituting a third bird to ideally bond with one or two of them.

If anyone is interested I can go into more depth about exactly why I have reservations about whether my tiels' bond is healthy (i feel like all i do here is complain about my weird birds!!), but I'm thinking ahead to the spring when male birds can get really hormonal... if things go downhill we might have to figure out an alternate situation for them. They are definitely bonded, but I don't think it's a healthy bond.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Personally I feel that throwing a third bird into an already unhealthy bond is a bad idea. It wont be good for the new bird. Physically separating them would be a much better option. Since your pair is father/daughter, if you can't get the hormones under control (i.e. long nights treatment) then separating would be the best idea.


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## caterpillar (Oct 14, 2013)

roxy culver said:


> Personally I feel that throwing a third bird into an already unhealthy bond is a bad idea. It wont be good for the new bird. Physically separating them would be a much better option. Since your pair is father/daughter, if you can't get the hormones under control (i.e. long nights treatment) then separating would be the best idea.


Fingers crossed, the hormone control has been working -- they have not been mating at all and we've had no eggs. Granted, it's out of season.

Physically separating them would be ideal, but I don't think Georgia would do very well as an independent bird. (Frankly, Elvis wouldn't either.) Hence, if we got a third bird it'd likely to be a companion to Georgia if she were separated from Elvis. Part of the reason why their bond seems unhealthy is that Elvis doesn't treat Georgia all that well -- sometimes he'll let her sit on the same perch with him, but sometimes he'll chase her off, and if she tries to get him to help her preen, he just shrieks at her and sometimes nips -- but Georgia is literally helpless without him. If you separate her from him, she screams and screams and screams and is in clear distress. That to me just does not seem healthy.

I don't think putting a third bird into the cage with them would be good with the possible exception of if it were an assertive male -- when we had a third bird with them before, Elvis just beat her up all the time, plucked her until she was bald, and forced her to mate. I do NOT want this to happen again 

If I'm separating the birds to break up an unhealthy bond, should their new cages be within sight of one another? (I know they generally are supposed to be but I'm not sure whether this would be a unique situation.) They're going to be able to hear each other regardless, as our apartment isn't very big.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I'd leave the cages next to each other so they can see and talk to each other. You aren't trying to keep them apart visually, just keeping them away from each other so they can't touch. And no, putting a more assertive male in the mix would not help, it would only hurt. Then you would have two males that fight all the time. Georgia doesn't need another bird, she needs time to be alone. The screaming for each other is normal, its part of a tiels flock bond, my tiels will scream for me. Its how they make sure the other is OK when they aren't nearby. There's nothing unhealthy about that.


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## vinay (Oct 11, 2012)

I had a similar issue in a previous thread and I was advised to separate the pair . 
It has worked wonders for me . 
I initially made the error of separating the female both physically and visually from her partner . They flock called like crazy ; there was constant screaming throughout the day. All my birds are housed outside in a balcony which can be accessed through a glass door from my room . After separation , I kept the lone female's cage inside my room , but she couldn't see the other from the part of the room . I then moved her outside right next to the cage . Over the next few days , I moved the cage further and further away . I now have her inside my room next to the glass door . She can clearly see the other birds from there but the guys outside can't look in . After this , her flock-calling has reduced considerably and thereby the male's calling has gone down too . 
I also keep her out for a few hours so she can interact with the other birds . 
I'm hoping that over the next few weeks , I can reduce her dependence on the male even more.


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## caterpillar (Oct 14, 2013)

roxy culver said:


> I'd leave the cages next to each other so they can see and talk to each other. You aren't trying to keep them apart visually, just keeping them away from each other so they can't touch. And no, putting a more assertive male in the mix would not help, it would only hurt. Then you would have two males that fight all the time. Georgia doesn't need another bird, she needs time to be alone. The screaming for each other is normal, its part of a tiels flock bond, my tiels will scream for me. Its how they make sure the other is OK when they aren't nearby. There's nothing unhealthy about that.


I know what flock calling sounds like (it's cute, albeit noisy -- they now like me enough that they flock call for me when I have been in the room and then leave) and I'm pretty sure that this is different. Georgia doesn't just scream when she's separated from Elvis, she panics. Sometimes I worry she'll hurt herself in the process.

So yeah -- cages next to each other is probably what we'll do if things get bad. I hope it doesn't come to this (especially since we will have to start getting rid of furniture in order to make room for another cage) but I'm prepared for it to happen when the weather gets warmer again in the spring.

Thanks!


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## caterpillar (Oct 14, 2013)

vinay said:


> I had a similar issue in a previous thread and I was advised to separate the pair .
> It has worked wonders for me .
> I initially made the error of separating the female both physically and visually from her partner . They flock called like crazy ; there was constant screaming throughout the day. All my birds are housed outside in a balcony which can be accessed through a glass door from my room . After separation , I kept the lone female's cage inside my room , but she couldn't see the other from the part of the room . I then moved her outside right next to the cage . Over the next few days , I moved the cage further and further away . I now have her inside my room next to the glass door . She can clearly see the other birds from there but the guys outside can't look in . After this , her flock-calling has reduced considerably and thereby the male's calling has gone down too .
> I also keep her out for a few hours so she can interact with the other birds .
> I'm hoping that over the next few weeks , I can reduce her dependence on the male even more.


How many birds do you have and in what cage arrangements, out of curiosity?


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I would separate them now, while there are no hormones involved. You say the relationship is unhealthy as it is, so why leave them together? Also, separating them will give you a chance to work with them separately and bond with them. If you think the screaming and panicking is bad now, wait til the hormones are up. It will give Georgia a chance to flourish on her own. And two birds separated don't need as large of a cage as two birds housed together.


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## ollieandme (Mar 25, 2013)

A third bird would not be a good idea. Chances are they'd get bullied amnyway. When i got Ivy, ollie and Bjorn bonded more.
Separation is the best idea though i think if they're not having hormonal issues, it's probably not necessary. In fact it might cause more behavioural/screamuing issues than you already have.


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## caterpillar (Oct 14, 2013)

ollieandme said:


> A third bird would not be a good idea. Chances are they'd get bullied amnyway. When i got Ivy, ollie and Bjorn bonded more.
> Separation is the best idea though i think if they're not having hormonal issues, it's probably not necessary. In fact it might cause more behavioural/screamuing issues than you already have.


Yeah, this is my conflict (between what you recommend and what Roxy recommends) -- the bond does not seem healthy, but it's better than it was back when we were doing no hormone control and we basically assumed cockatiels were this barbaric species that would be horrible to one another no matter what. Right now, I honestly think things are ok. Maybe they'll still be ok in the spring when hormones heat up again. I'm just trying to have a plan B in mind.

And you raise a good point ollieandme... the reason why they have never been separated before, especially when we had our third tiel who was getting violently bullied, is that the (questionable) advice we got suggested that behavior/screaming issues would get worse and that there was no guarantee it would improve. We were concerned that our neighbors' complaints about the tiels might get so bad that we (the humans) could get evicted over it. 

That said, roxy, you have a good point. Georgia needs to learn how to live on her own. She's lived her entire life in a psychologically unhealthy environment where her father bullied her mother and encouraged her to do the same (at least with most species I think this would be psychologically unhealthy). I should probably get a second cage, put it on top of the first cage, and separate them in that way -- but would that help to solve her codependence problems? Would she still scream and panic when she's separated from him even if they have a physical divide between them? I just want her to be emotionally healthy.


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## vinay (Oct 11, 2012)

> How many birds do you have and in what cage arrangements, out of curiosity?


Oh well , I have quite a few  . 15 budgies in a large flight cage , 2 lovebirds in their own cage , an Indian Ringneck parakeet and 3 tiels . All the species have their own cages in my balcony . I used to have 22 budgies at one point of time ( couldn't sell the babies after breeding  ) . I finally got around to selling a few this month . 

I have a couple of spare cages which I used for breeding the budgies . I now house the extra tiel in it  .


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## Stevolteon (Aug 31, 2013)

Rather than stacking the cages I'd suggest putting them next to each other with line of sight, at least to begin with. It'll make it a little easier on Georgia as she learns to be independent. Probably easier on your ear drums as well!

Sounds as if a bit of panic on her part is inevitable but as you say it's for the greater good, she'll adapt with time. Maybe try taking her mind off it? Try and spend more time with her, give her some new toys perhaps? A handy trick for distracting our Nigel when he's being clingy is whistling new songs to him, but I don't know if that would work for a female.


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