# Loki



## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

So, I have a pair of whitefaced pearl pieds who had a clutch of 5 eggs. This pair is new for me, but had been proven for their previous breeder. They had several successful clutches and I had a baby from one of them. When the breeder decided to get out of birds, I couldn't pass them up. Anyway, they had a bad scare when this latest clutch of babies started hatching and I ended up with just one. My son was trying to be helpful and decided to vaccuum the bird room. My birds are all fine with vaccuums but these were not. They broke the unhatched eggs and there was no saving any of them. 

Loki was the only one hatched and in the beginning everything was fine. Then he was barely two weeks old when I noticed mom and dad were plucking him and pushing him out. They had plucked him bloody on one side. So, I pulled him and removed their box. I am going to let them rest for several months before we try again but in the mean time, Loki was VERY small, only about 38 grams at two weeks. He was not being fed properly. So, it has been about 5 days since I pulled him and he has almost doubled in size. He is now 73 grams and taking 4 feedings a day. Up until today, he would take about 4cc of formula at each feeding and his crop was big enough to bust. After one feeding, he regurgitated half of what he ate and I was very concerned about aspiration but he is doing just fine so far. Just now he took 5ccs and is still wanting more but I am afraid if I overfill him that he will regurgitate and aspirate the formula. His hatch date was April 4th. My question is, should I give in and allow him to take more at each feeding or should I give more feedings with smaller amounts. I have been feeding him slowly so that I know his body is processing the food instead of him just getting a full crop. He does empty almost completely between feedings and the formula is the consistency of heavy cake batter. So I am not sure why he is still crying for more ten to twenty minutes after he has a full crop. Unless he is just a really needy birdy due to parental harassment early on?


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*After one feeding, he regurgitated half of what he ate and I was very concerned about aspiration but he is doing just fine so far. *
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In rare instances a baby can have a reaction to a formula and not be able to tolerate it well. Sometimes switching to another brand can resolve the problem. I have learned to keep some Roudybush formula on hand for babies that are undersized or have problems.

Another thing that might help is to add a pinch of ground Ginger to each feeding for a day. it tends to sooth the crop. Many times if the baby has a problem with the formula the crop muscles contract and cause them to vomit it back up. The Ginger is soothing to the crop and digestive tract.

Please don't be tempted to overfeed. With this type of baby stick to 10% of body weight per feeding, and allow to empty completely between each feeding.

Ypou might post several pix's of him...front and side veiws...so that we can get an idea of what he looks like.

Just a question...why are you breeding 2 visuals together? You would get better quality babies if you paired a visual with a split.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

Try feeding 10% of his body weight three times a day. That's what's been recommended to me. With the four feedings you're overfeeding him and it can cause issues. As long as his crop empties between each feed he should be ok. They will cry for a while after feeding just because it takes so long for their body to realize they've already been fed.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Will try the ginger. I will also see if a formula switch will help - I do have some Roudybush on hand, should I just switch or mix the two first. I am currently using the Kaytee. 

As for the visual. I was not paying attention to what I was typing when I posted their color. What I meant to post was that they were a white faced pearl pied AND pied pair. Mom is a clear WF cinnamon pied and dad is the WF cinnamon pearl pied. I had just come back from PT and am not quite with it. LOL.

Will see if I can get a couple pictures of Loki later this evening. My camera has been acting up lately.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

hun, thats still like to like.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

nwoodrow said:


> hun, thats still like to like.


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Yes...it is. And from personal experience when working with pieds it is always best to have a normal split (or WF normal) paired to a visual pied....especially when working with the heavy and clear pieds. Size and quality is alot better. Less losses in the nest.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

*I do have some Roudybush on hand, should I just switch or mix the two first.*
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Hmmm....you mentioned that you are feeding the thick formula. If you do this with the Roudybush after a few feeding it will clump in the bottom of the crop and become doughy and the interior crop skin will get coated with yeast. (learn the hard way on this) I have learned to mix the formula to the letter of instructions of the Roudybush which is alot thinner than most other formula. So if you do do a 50/50 formula conversion mix lean towards the thinner mix.

Roudybush has been a lifesaver when I have worked with the rares years ago. Every once in awhile I would have an Em (emerald) that would fail to thrive on most popular formula brands and within a day on the Roudybush it would turn around and gain weight, etc.


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

With this pair I am trying to set a structure of bird not necessarily a color. However, I was under the impression that if I wanted to bring the pearl into the WF, I would be better off breeding the WF to WF to add the pearl and not bring in normals? Wouldn't outcrossing this pair completely open the babies up to not only wild structure differences but wildly diverse colorations as well? If I bred the wf clear hen to say a normal split to wf male and got a beautiful structure but the male had a poor formed orange cheek, I would have a lovely structure but something I couldn't show because his cheek patch would keep him from winning. Again, color has never been my sole focus, rather, I have been pairing birds for structure. If I have been mistaken, please - let me know!!! I would gladly change how I am setting up my pairs. 

This also goes back to my question in the bald lutinos discussion. I have Mila, the pearl lutino who I am pairing off with a normal split to pied and lutino male. Structurally, these two birds should produce very nice, solid built and long babies. I am not necessarily trying for lutino colors, just the build.


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## nwoodrow (Feb 13, 2011)

By pairing a lutino Pearl hen with a grey split to lutino......... cock, your not only improving the structure your limiting the bald spot to hopefully not appearing and working on strengthening the lutino mutation insteead of weakening which can happen when breeding like to like. Im not sure of the outcome for wf to wf as only the lutinos that i know of have really suffered through the like to like pairing, but i just do my best to find the mutiations i want in a cock ressesively (as long as i can trust the breeder i got from, or know the parents he was bred from) and then find a visual hen.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

By build you mean conformation right...or a good topline? If so I understand the disregard as to focusing on color, because I was told years ago to see the bird as a black silohette (sp) and to focus on good confirmation, feathering, and other traits and the color the ising on the cake.

In order to get good cheek patches on normals you would need to work and establish a line (over a couple generations) that has large nickle sized deep orange round patches. The Bummer is when these type of patches (or any normal patch) are paired with WF and you get splits to WF and the patches are diluted and irregular. It is the WF that alters the notmal split/WF patches.

Having any of the normal mutations with the hyge cheek patches is benefical when working with DYC and SLYC in producing large beautiful round true yellow patches.

I have also found that if you can find a pearl that has very deep yellow lacey pearls and breed with a WF for splits (hold the males) you get stunning and contrasty WF pearl (daughters) when paired with a normal WF hen.

As to WF pieds in order to get the nice crisp true white color start with any normal (to make splits) that had a high content of yellow. The yellow content contributes to a beautiful true white.

*I couldn't show because his cheek patch would keep him from winning.*

This is one thing I found that turned me off from showing. There was no consideration when it came to splits. With a split to WF the cheek patch is altered in shape and color. With a split to pearl the faint ghosting on the back comes thru. Other mutation splits also have some small degrees of alterations from the norm. Such as split to Em will get a brown wash on the back on the back of a normal split hen.

What do you show in...novice or advanced?


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Susanne - yes, conformation, topline, head, crest - whatever is lacking. I too was taught to paint a bird black and just breed for structure first to establish my lines. The only real regard to color I have is that I prefer to work with Cinnamon varieties. I love the cinnamon pieds.

In this particular WF pair, I have seen the clutches they produced for the previous owner over two years. The babies were always ok, not top of the line, but the offspring paired with one of my birds (a normal/cinnamon pied) produced a very nice and much improved quality as well as a near perfectly symmetrical butterfly or saddleback cinnamon pied. Everyone (outside of showing) "oohhhs and ahhhs" over the markings, but it is the conformation of the birds that were produced which caught my eye. So, I am trying to produce another bird from this WF pairing to put into my lines before I retire the pair or separate them to pair with different birds. 

It is a learning process for me - I am learning the structure genetics as I go. For example, in this pairing, a previous baby from them (Taylor - WF Cin Pearl Pied) paired with Cienna (Normal Cin Pied split to pearl) produced a bird that was really long and elegant with a very nice chest and much improved crest. The best bird of that clutch I kept. She is a gorgeous Cinnamon Pearl Pied split to white face. 

There has been an awful lot on color breeding but not so much with how the structure is passed. One line lacks length, the other lacks the "hawky brow" - everyone seems to strive to improve each individual aspect one at a time. So, I understood this was the best way to work. In my lines, I needed length. Frost is one of those from the crossover of lines and so is Buttercup. Buttercup has really great size and Frost has beautiful length and crest. Their current mates have not taken those attributes away, so I will test breed their offspring together in hopes to combine the length and crest. But, I have a small flock and it is hard to make huge leaps of improvements with just a few birds. So, I was under the impression to set a foundation line and understand what to expect before I start to outcross and add tons of variables. In this WF pair's case, I have seen this pairs babies over two years, I have documented with photos and notes what their babies look like and compared it to what their offspring mated to one of my birds produced. The resulting babies have been very predictable in their conformation and so I feel pretty confident in what my crosses will produce.

I also do get a little frustrated with the whole splits issue when showing. I think that splits are a perfect opportunity to really judge for conformation instead of perfect markings. Even though markings are a small fraction of the overall score, it is that small percent which can make or break a show bird. 

I am currently showing in novice and will be putting birds in the fall San Antonio TX show as well as the fall Dallas/Ft Worth Show. I had planned to show in the Biloxi show but had an accident and am recovering from a grand total of three herniated discs and one completely ruptured disk in my back - no fun. My husband is career military and just a couple months from retirement so I am finally able to really focus on what I want and do it seriously. Up until now, we were never in one place long enough for me to really do any competitions. So most of my experience is from watching shows and really following certain lines. Currently, I have 3 new birds from Josh Maple and one from Royce Irwin that I am working in with my foundation birds. I've had a few nice birds for years and bred them for pets only but they all had nice conformation and what mattered most at the time - personality. Now I want to improve what I have to bring it even closer to the conformation standard. My birds won't make the advanced bench yet but it is my hope that this fall I can see at least one or two in the top novice placements.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

By your description of the pieds you must be NCS because ACS tends to not give a crap as far as nice markings...they lean more towards dirty faced lightly pied carrier pigeons sized birds.

I worked with pieds for almost 10 years. Went from petshop normal/Pd to large proportionate symetrical heavy pieds to clear pieds. All normal or normal pearl pieds. I loath cinnamons. Average weaning weights were in the early 2000's were between 116-147 grams.

The most valuable bird to build towards a symetrical line is a very lightly pied bird that is symetrical...meaning 1-2 clear flight feathers on each wing. Whenever I bred one of them I would pair it with a normal for splits. These splits were paired with average marked (but good size and conformation) and 50% of each clutch were perfectly symetrical marked pieds of good size. I would them take the best and most symetrical birds and pair them with normals for splits and repeat the process. 

As to length...that is the harder trait to get. It took me awhile to learn 2 things: That if you have a parent that has length it takes to the 2nd generation for it to show up and reproduce consistantly. I also learned that it takes 4 years for a bird to attain full length. With each molt they gain 1/8-1/4" in length. But length is no good if there is not good feather quality. Overtime I wound up letting go some birds that were visually beautiful but would easily fray their tails and break them. I learned to watch how a bird climbed up the side of the cage as it weaned. if it held the tail away from the wire it was less prine to fraying and breaking the tail feathers. so I culled any that failed to do this. I also learned that tails tended to be less brittle if each feather was wide/broad rather than narrow. So from there culled out the birds with the narrow tail feathers.

What I did was selectively breed, and along the way my tiels taught me alot.

LOL...it is actually Royce Irwin that turned me off from considering showing. In the early 1990's I beleive he was interning (or whatever the word is) towards being a judge for ACS, and judged a show in Miami FL. At the time there was a new breeder that wanted to get into showing. Two weeks before the show he came up and told me he wanted to get into showing and did I have anything that he could purchase to enter. Most of my birds were in outside flights and at the time in good feather condition. I sold him a WF CPPd cock. He was gorgeous and almost 17" from crest to the tip of the tail. Little did I know, the buyer had asked other show people how they bulked up their birds for the show. He said (learned later on) he was told to put the bird in a very small cage and to feed it fatty food and Popcorn. The WF CPPd did well at the show...he won 1st on the novice bench...BUT...all I heard out of the judges mouth was that the birds that got moved up the bench was because they were bigger than the others. The bird I sold to the man was picking the inside of it's mouth trying to get something out that was stuck inside. His toes were bloody and there was blood on the side of his head. YET...all this judge saw was size. I was so upset that the birds injuries were overlooked, and had thought about going to the show vet and demeanding that the bird be pulled from the show. I wished I had because a few days later that bird was dead. Found out it had a popcorn hull stuck inside it's mouth and infection set in. I was so disillusioned on how that show was judged. And over the years the focus on huge obese birds over quality and conformation. I feel bad for Mr. irwin because I felt he was compelled to go with judging the way that ACS was leaning toward rather than what he personally felt a bird should be judged on. He was nervous the entire show and felt that 'this bird was bird bigger' was what the people judgeing him wanted to hear. 

I still bred for more to please myself on what I saw in my minds eye. Over the years an Advanced breeder tried to get me to show....and I refused. One day he admired a normal I had and I gave it to him. If he wanted something of mine he could show it. I don't know if advanced people have to show their own or advanced birds, but rather than show it he gave it away to a novice breeder. She showed it at a specialty show and it took top bench, and several years ago became champion.

Since then I have sold off just about all of my tiels. These days I am enjoying working with mousebirds


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

It sounds like I am at the early learning stages of what you have already learned! How I would love to "pick your brain"! And yes, I have learned most of what I know about showing from NCS shows and not ACS.

I had noticed a tendency of my better birds and how they carried their tail and flights when climbing - and my longer birds I also tend to pair with birds who have wider feathers and stay away from very narrow feathers. And I have noticed the ACS birds are much bigger - the flying bricks- I think they go back to the heavier Greeson style lines don't they? I don't care for such huge birds, some people do - to each his own. It may make mine remain in the novice area but, I believe a cockatiel should be elegant and not be built and move like a bus. The standard does say something about proportion, right? LOL. As for the show "game" - I showed cocker spaniels for 9 years. I have seen just about everything in the ways of tricks and gimmicks from inking and dying to doggie braces. So far, I know one thing- even the current top cockatiel aviaries will not sell their very best. The most a novice can get is second or third best and work up from there. So, that's where I feel I have begun.

It is horrible that you had that kind of experience with the popcorn incident. And, how horrible for the poor bird. I met Royce and his wife not too long ago so I don't know them really well. Mila, my lutino hen is from them. She's the one bird I have that is completely different structurally from the rest of my birds. She's going to be quite a wildcard. I will say that if I ever had to resort to that kind of gimmick (the popcorn), I wouldn't show. I know its niave but I want my birds judged honestly. I am not out to put grand champions on everything I own, but I do want to see how my birds are rated against the standard and other birds when it comes to conformation and I really am interested in the outside opinions on improving. I do appreciate the extra eye.

By the way, I adore your mousebirds. They really are so sweet looking and delicate. Maybe someday.... lol, so tempting!


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

I knew showing was a lot of politics (showed rabbits as a kid) but WOW! I can see why you were turned off. Dreamcatcher you have beautiful birds. I love the cinnamon coloring as well. Very hard to get away from.  I was considering trying it out but now I'm not so sure I want too...


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

LOL...on my mousebird website is my phone #...I would love to talk 'shop' on breeding tiels. At one time I had 800 tiels, so I had a good selection of birds to work with to develope several lines, and they taught me sooo much 

I always tried to reproduce a bird that looked like the illustration both societies used as the 'standard' I was so disillusioned that very few birds shown did, with ACS, whereas NCS is more realistic, and adheres more towards the stand and birds from NCS breeders tend to have a more sleek and graceful look. 

I also learned that a cockatiel should have a long body cavity from the base of the crop to the vent. On the larger birds what I've noticed is that the body cavity is shorter by 1/2" Tail lengths are not as long...ususally an average of 7.5"...whereas the longer body cavity birds tended to have tail lengths of 8-8.75" Therefore by breeding for proportion rather than size overall body cavity and length are longer...give the appearance of a sleek well proportioned bird. The downside of the larger bird is the body cavity is shorter. in being so there is more bulk to the brest area, but the organs in the inside of the bird are more crowded, which puts a strain on the heart, and other organs, especially the liver.

The other discouraging thing was breeding for huge head sizes. The downside of that is that the larger heads resulted in a higher incidence of DIS eggs. the reason why is that the slight increase in head size from the normal prevented the chicks to turn in the egg and get into the position for piping.

There are some lines of birds especially with cinnamon cocks, and splits to cinnamon within show lines that are prone to seizures (hypocalcemia). 

LOL...the popcorn was the least of it. I saw exhibitors tube feeding adult birds...totally filling the crop with hopes the food would still be in the crop to give the illusion of bulk to the chest of the bird by the time it make it to the bench for judging.


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## roxy culver (May 27, 2010)

> LOL...the popcorn was the least of it. I saw exhibitors tube feeding adult birds...totally filling the crop with hopes the food would still be in the crop to give the illusion of bulk to the chest of the bird by the time it make it to the bench for judging.


That's so sad! Baby has a wider chest than a lot of my other birds, is that normal or something bred into him?


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## Dreamcatchers (Apr 17, 2011)

Happy to report that Loki is taking his formula very well now. The ginger worked wonders and he is doing quite well on the formula switch, as long as I keep it a little on the thinner side. He was taking forever to digest it at first and with the Texas heat, he needed more fluids. At four feedings a day, 6 to 8 cc each feeding, he is now at 90grams. He is finally starting to show feathers where mom and dad gave him a workover as well. Looks like a WF cinnamon pearl light pied is what I have.


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## srtiels (May 1, 2009)

The is good news  I am glad he is doing so much better. It sounds like he is catching up to his age.

Since the ginger worked so well you might want to try the entire Spice remdey for a week or so...
 Recipe for the Spice Recipe







 
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*Take a small jar and mix thoroughly the following, which the base stock:

**2 tsp. of garlic powder *(*not* garlic salt)

*1/2 tsp of cinnamon

1/2 tsp. of ginger

*There are several ways that I will use to treat. If it is a single bird or just a couple I will mix up a small solution and either give orally or use a small crop tube and feed directly into the crop.

*I will mix 1/8 teaspoon of the spice mix with 2cc of water.* (*Optional* a pinch of Probiotics or Yogurt, and Brewers Yeast can be added if the baby appears pale or stressed)

Each chick is given a 1/2cc (*.*5cc) 2 times a day for 5-7 days.

If I am hand feeding a lot of babies I will mix *¼ teaspoon PER ½ cup of formula *2 times a day.

This combination of spices will help cut down on the yeast and bacteria by means of inhibiting overgrowth while boosting the immune system, and providing nutritional and supportive care to the digestive tract, body and organs. The spice remedy is designed more as a *supportive treatment* rather than for any antibacterial or antifungal properties. The dosage is too low to be truly effective as a stand alone antibiotic treatment. 

*The following is just a few of the constituents and benefits derived from each of the spices:

Garlic: *(Allium Sativum) Garlic contains Vitamins A, B, C, and E, selenium. These vitamins also act as a stimuli to the immune system. Garlic supports the natural intestinal flora which helps to inhibit yeast and bacterial growth. It is the sulphur constituents, such as allicin and ajoene, that contribute to garlic's antibiotic properties. When combined with conventional medications it supports their actions, yet protects the liver from harmful side effects. This is especially beneficial when treating for respiratory and digestive infections.

*Cinnamon:* (Cinnamomum Zeylanicum) This herb/spice works in tandem with ginger and garlic. It acts as a strengthening and supportive herb for weak digestion. It also is a warming herb when the body feels chilled by stimulating circulation. It is mildly astringent which is beneficial when there is diarrhea or loose watery droppings, nausea, and vomiting.

*Ginger: *(Zingiber Officinale)In addition to the soothing effect of an upset crop (nausea) and digestive tract ginger also alleviates stress and has an invigorating effect to the body. Ginger has some antibiotic properties, and the antiseptic properties help to protect against infection. It helps alleviate gas in the crop, and also tends to lower fever.​


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